Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the short Stuff Josh, Chuck, Jerry,
Speaker 1: not Dave, but Dave's still anyway, short stuff.
Speaker 2: That's right, another banger of a job by you, thanks
Speaker 2: to your research with Science of Food Journal, the marketing stage,
Speaker 2: optimizing nutrition across the margin, our Ole Priends at housetuffworks
Speaker 2: dot com, Mashed and Panolion, the Panolion whatever that is.
Speaker 1: It's right, right, Yeah, they were all very good resources
Speaker 1: because this is kind of like a wide ranging topic.
Speaker 1: We're talking about bliss the bliss point, which is essentially
Speaker 1: what food scientists have come up with to make you
Speaker 1: eat and crave junk food ceaselessly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have a pretty startling stat here out of
Speaker 2: the gate. The average American consumed, and this is a
Speaker 2: few years ago in twenty twenty two, one hundred and
Speaker 2: twenty six point four grams of sugar a day, which
Speaker 2: is one hundred and one pounds or forty six key
Speaker 2: lows of sugar per American per year. Some people say
Speaker 2: it's like up to one fifty, which is a ton
Speaker 2: of sugar. In nineteen fifteen that number was about seventeen
Speaker 2: and a half pounds, and processed foods were developed in
Speaker 2: that time span. And that's literally to blame.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And that's added sugar. That's not like
Speaker 1: the sugar from fruit. It's the sugar that you could
Speaker 1: like put into a package and sell at the store.
Speaker 1: That's the sugar that they're counting right there. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: there's a guy named Michael Moss. He wrote a book
Speaker 1: that you probably have heard of called Salt, Sugar and Fat.
Speaker 1: Came out I don't know within the last decade or so,
Speaker 1: but he talks about a market researcher named Howard Moskowitz,
Speaker 1: and Moscowitz basically gave us the food industry as we
Speaker 1: understand it today. And I looked up and down to
Speaker 1: see if he expressed any remorse at the end of
Speaker 1: his life, and he doesn't seem to have been anything
Speaker 1: but proud of his work. But the reason he revolutionized
Speaker 1: the food industry is that in the seventies he identified
Speaker 1: the idea of bliss points like it was almost a discovery,
Speaker 1: as more than an invention. And that is the perfect
Speaker 1: balance between fat, sugar, and salt in any given food product.
Speaker 1: It's not the same for every food product. It's specific
Speaker 1: to each individual Dorito or cheeto or whatever, and if
Speaker 1: you do it right, people are just going to eat
Speaker 1: those things constantly and they're not going to stop. They're
Speaker 1: going to have trouble stopping.
Speaker 2: In fact, Yeah, he was a what's known as a psychophysicist,
Speaker 2: and they are people who look at the relationship between
Speaker 2: a stimulus and your brain's response to it. And in
Speaker 2: this case, we're talking about taste. As far as the
Speaker 2: stimulus and then as far as our brains response. It's like,
Speaker 2: I want to eat all of that that I can, right,
Speaker 2: And he was eventually became known as like a really
Speaker 2: pretty brilliant market researcher who would pump out these really
Speaker 2: detailed reports on consumer on consumers consuming, and some of
Speaker 2: these could be like over one hundred pages long, like
Speaker 2: really drilled down to like kind of weird levels of
Speaker 2: specificity and granularity, and he would discover a bliss point
Speaker 2: of something. And I think he's really well known for
Speaker 2: helping Prego the Saucier come up with their chunky variety
Speaker 2: and he introduced thirty two different mustards and seventeen different
Speaker 2: olive oils and a lot of other products to the market.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again by just doing this exhaustive market research
Speaker 1: and interviews and focus groups and testing to just figure
Speaker 1: out what people wanted and then figure out how to
Speaker 1: make it so that most the most people would buy
Speaker 1: it because it had maximal palatability.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have bliss points for everything, basically, they're
Speaker 2: different for different macro nutrients. Bliss points for junk food
Speaker 2: are just heavily engineered to do that, but there are
Speaker 2: natural bliss points, like protein satisfies people pretty quickly, so
Speaker 2: I think Marty Kendall says on the Optimizing Nutrition blog,
Speaker 2: had a pretty funny mistake that we'd be found that
Speaker 2: if a food has a protein content of just fourteen percent,
Speaker 2: that's going to make you feel satisfied. And that's why
Speaker 2: a lot of high protein diets are recommended because you're
Speaker 2: just probably not gonna eat as much because you can
Speaker 2: feel fuller and become satisfied more quickly.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also that's why you rarely find protein and
Speaker 1: junk food. Yeah, exactly. They don't want you to feel satisfied.
Speaker 1: They don't want it feel satiated. They just want that
Speaker 1: bliss point as such that your brains just like keep going,
Speaker 1: keep going. And the reason why salt, fat and sugar
Speaker 1: are focused on is because those three combined basically set
Speaker 1: off all of our taste buds. Right. Yeah, so it
Speaker 1: really like pumps out a huge message to our brain
Speaker 1: saying like this is amazing, let's just eat this forever.
Speaker 1: And like you said, everything kind of has a bliss point.
Speaker 1: And also most foods or a lot of foods have
Speaker 1: these same three ingredients naturally. But again, these aren't These
Speaker 1: foods like aren't really engineered to keep us going to
Speaker 1: maximalize the bliss point. They just kind of have a
Speaker 1: natural version in it. You know, like an apple tastes
Speaker 1: good because it has its own bliss point, but it's
Speaker 1: not so highly engineered that you don't just keep eating
Speaker 1: apple after apple.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that would make you sick in your belly.
Speaker 1: Yes, because they're high in fiber, they're good for that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Should we take a break, Yeah we should.
Speaker 2: Well, now we're on the road, driving in your truck.
Speaker 1: I want to learn a thing or two from Josh Chuck.
Speaker 2: It's stuff you should know.
Speaker 1: Should all right, So again, salt, fat, sugar, these these
Speaker 1: three things. If you can get that down, your food
Speaker 1: company will probably be successful if you can figure out
Speaker 1: how to just kind of put them together just right,
Speaker 1: and they serve other purposes too, like salt masks, the
Speaker 1: taste of other ingredients pretty well, sugar is also preservative,
Speaker 1: so the shelf life of a product is extended from it.
Speaker 1: But really taste is essentially what you're trying to do
Speaker 1: with this. But it goes to show you just how
Speaker 1: how not precarious, just what a juggling act it is
Speaker 1: to come to the bliss point. So it's maximally palatable.
Speaker 1: But also there's enough sugar in there to keep your
Speaker 1: you know, stovetop stuffing from turning bad on the shelf
Speaker 1: if you don't move them fast enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is one of those is kind
Speaker 2: of disappointing to learn how sort of they're not like,
Speaker 2: let let's make something that people really like and that
Speaker 2: tastes awesome. They're like, let's let's make something that they
Speaker 2: will eat and eat and eat. That's why I just
Speaker 2: became German.
Speaker 1: That's a problem with the twentieth century business mindset that's
Speaker 1: still around Today's hook your audience and you'll have profits
Speaker 1: for your shareholders constantly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, from Dorito's to social media. Yeah, it sucks, so
Speaker 2: we don't know, you know, you can't get a recipe
Speaker 2: for dorriedo, you know, like an actual recipe. But that
Speaker 2: optimizing nutrition blog that you found, they took. They got
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of food logs and came up with
Speaker 2: some pretty good guesses on sort of a prime bliss
Speaker 2: point ratio. I guess, yeah, wherein sugar makes up or
Speaker 2: should make up about twenty three point five percent of
Speaker 2: the calories, salt about two point nine grams per two
Speaker 2: thousand calories, and fat about twenty twenty four percent of
Speaker 2: the food's calories. And again, this is not like the
Speaker 2: construction of a good diet. This is if you're looking
Speaker 2: to maximize that bliss point exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a good diet, right, So there's other
Speaker 1: things that come into play that food scientists have figured
Speaker 1: out along the way. Do you remember the chewy granola
Speaker 1: bar revolution of the early nineties, Yeah, sure those are good.
Speaker 1: Chewy mouthfeel was basically investigated and they figured out how
Speaker 1: to maximize that and then also crunchy. You know, you
Speaker 1: can't really sneeze at that. But the biggest, the biggest
Speaker 1: invention or the biggest discovery aside from bliss point, as
Speaker 1: far as food science goes, as vanishing caloric density which
Speaker 1: is really important for junk food.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is incredible. This is the idea that something
Speaker 2: that you put in your mouth to eat that has
Speaker 2: that sort of melt in your mouth quality, your brain
Speaker 2: doesn't register that you are eating calories. So that's when
Speaker 2: like popcorn is one of them. That's why you can
Speaker 2: sit down and eat a giant sub of popcorn at
Speaker 2: the movies because it kind of has that melt in
Speaker 2: your mouth feel, and your brain's not saying like, maybe
Speaker 2: you should put this down because you're eating a lot
Speaker 2: of calories. It doesn't signal your brain in that way.
Speaker 2: And a little fact that I learn from your research
Speaker 2: that hits home to my family was that they have
Speaker 2: found that cheetos Michael Mass said that that is the
Speaker 2: perfect snack for as far as bliss point goes, as
Speaker 2: far as the crunchy mouthfeel, the flavor ratio, and most
Speaker 2: importantly that vanishing color density. And my friend, my wife
Speaker 2: Emily has a Cheeto problem such that we don't keep
Speaker 2: Cheetos in the house. She's like, I can't stop eating
Speaker 2: them when they're in the house.
Speaker 1: I know how she feels. I've got some products like that,
Speaker 1: Yeah that I just I don't keep in the house.
Speaker 1: You can't. I do have to say though, that it's
Speaker 1: gotten easier and easier with just how ridiculous the prices
Speaker 1: are for chips these days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, chips are a price.
Speaker 1: It's insane, chuck, Like a bag of ruffles printed on
Speaker 1: the bag is seven dollars and fifty cents for half
Speaker 1: of a bag of ruffles. Potato chips, Now, that is insane.
Speaker 1: The only good part of it is hopefully more and
Speaker 1: more people are like, I'm not eating chips anymore. This
Speaker 1: is dumb.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we don't eat a lot of that stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, when we'll go to the lake for the
Speaker 2: weekends with like kids and stuff, we'll get like chips
Speaker 2: and dip and that's always fun. I do have a
Speaker 2: French onion sunship problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh fan, I love that so much. The mouth
Speaker 1: seel of those turned me off. Actually, oh, I love it.
Speaker 2: And they also they're one of those sort of evils
Speaker 2: that make you think you're eating sort of a healthy
Speaker 2: like a multi grid thing, and it's like, I don't
Speaker 2: think those are any healthier than a fried potato chip.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, here, take my hand and help me off
Speaker 1: of my soapbox, because I have a follow up question
Speaker 1: about Emily's Cheeto problem. All right, let's hear it. Does
Speaker 1: she like the original Cheetos, the straight ahead version, or
Speaker 1: is she more like a fiery hot version kind of
Speaker 1: cheeto lover.
Speaker 2: No, she's a standard Cheeto, and to be specific, not
Speaker 2: a cheese puff either, like a real Cheetoh, like a
Speaker 2: Frid Flintstone Club Cheeto. But it's funny that she accidentally
Speaker 2: got some of those flaming hots and Ruby was like,
Speaker 2: I want to try those, and we're like, no, those
Speaker 2: are way too high. Eat those and she was like no,
Speaker 2: I can handle it.
Speaker 1: And she ate it.
Speaker 2: And it was one of those things where you can
Speaker 2: see like her eyes starting water and she's like, these
Speaker 2: are really good.
Speaker 1: I like these. She played it off.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, She's like I want to take those to school,
Speaker 2: and then we later found she was trading them.
Speaker 1: And sure yeah, she's like you're trying these, you'll love
Speaker 1: it exactly. So okay, So just figuring out the bliss
Speaker 1: point is not enough. You don't just figure it out
Speaker 1: and release it. You try a million different combinations, maybe
Speaker 1: not a million, but not that far off, and you
Speaker 1: test it with people. That's how you fine tune everything
Speaker 1: and get it just right so that you find that
Speaker 1: bliss point that's going to help you sell as much,
Speaker 1: and so those taste tests can like really start to
Speaker 1: add up. There's some legendary ones, as a matter of fact.
Speaker 1: One of them is Prego Chunky.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we mentioned that earlier. They had forty five different
Speaker 2: versions of Prego Chunky that they were testing until they
Speaker 2: got to their main one. And then I'm going to
Speaker 2: let you handle the Doctor Pepper because that's just amazing.
Speaker 1: Cherry Vanilla Doctor Pepper. They went through sixty one different
Speaker 1: versions and four thousand different taste tests before they finally
Speaker 1: released it. It's not bad.
Speaker 2: I've never tried it. I mean, I'm not a doctor
Speaker 2: Pepper guy. It's such a specific I don't like hate it,
Speaker 2: but it's just not when I go to.
Speaker 1: I'm not either. But that's or wait, maybe it's the
Speaker 1: cream soda doctor Pepper. That's not bad. I don't really
Speaker 1: drink it either, but I tried one once and I
Speaker 1: was like, that's actually pretty good.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What about Oreos Chuck, Because one of the things they've
Speaker 1: become known for in the last few years is releasing
Speaker 1: just nutso flavors all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, this is probably the gen X
Speaker 2: in me coming out. But I love a not I
Speaker 2: do love a standard Oreo, But to me, they hit
Speaker 2: peak Oreo with the double stuff standard.
Speaker 1: Oh really, you don't like lemon.
Speaker 2: No, I mean I'm not into lemony dessert iserts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably wouldn't like lemon Oreos. Then I think
Speaker 1: they're very good. And I also think some of the
Speaker 1: minuted editions they've come out with are pretty good. Like
Speaker 1: Birthday Cake, which was the first one they did to
Speaker 1: commemorate their one hundredth birthday back in twenty twelve. To me,
Speaker 1: the pin it was very good. I think it's still around.
Speaker 1: To me, the pinnacle was rice crispy treats Oreos. They
Speaker 1: were amazing.
Speaker 2: That sounds so good.
Speaker 1: They were really really good. If they re released any
Speaker 1: I would I would definitely go get those. But I've
Speaker 1: very fortunately been like, I should probably stop buying like
Speaker 1: crazy flavored Oreos because I just eat the whole bag,
Speaker 1: like in one sitting. Basically, oh man, glass of cold
Speaker 1: whole milk. Yeah, Oreos go really well with that. But oh,
Speaker 1: the reason why that they've been releasing so many flavors
Speaker 1: is that they figured out when they release a crazy flavor,
Speaker 1: it gets lots of press, so it gets people to
Speaker 1: the stores, right, And they found that when people are
Speaker 1: at the stores to buy that crazy flavored Oreo, they
Speaker 1: apparently remember how much they love the original Oreos like you,
Speaker 1: so they buy both. That's great, too interesting. I guess
Speaker 1: it's great for a Nubisco. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I bet that was a finding too where they were like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, look what's happening. Yeah, Chuck went to
Speaker 2: get a Lady Gaga Oreo and he got the double
Speaker 2: stuff as well.
Speaker 1: I know that's so weird. That's one of the flavors.
Speaker 1: And I guess before we signed off, Chuck, I think
Speaker 1: we should remind everybody, as we have many times, Oreo
Speaker 1: is the knockoff Hydrox was the original. That's right. Everybody's
Speaker 1: short stuff.
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