1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:23,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. In our last episode, we learned about the ideas 2 00:00:23,436 --> 00:00:26,556 Speaker 1: of the great Greek thinker Socrates. My friend and Yale 3 00:00:26,556 --> 00:00:28,756 Speaker 1: colleague to Mark Gendler, gave us a glimpse into the 4 00:00:28,796 --> 00:00:31,796 Speaker 1: so called Socratic method, which calls on all of us 5 00:00:31,836 --> 00:00:35,276 Speaker 1: to question every belief we hold and every assumption we make. 6 00:00:35,716 --> 00:00:38,396 Speaker 1: But we also heard that the story of Socrates didn't 7 00:00:38,396 --> 00:00:41,116 Speaker 1: have the happiest of endings. His habit of getting us 8 00:00:41,116 --> 00:00:44,036 Speaker 1: to regularly challenge everything we know was a bit too 9 00:00:44,156 --> 00:00:46,956 Speaker 1: radical for many of his fellow ancient Greeks, and so 10 00:00:47,076 --> 00:00:49,356 Speaker 1: he was sentenced to death for the alleged crime of 11 00:00:49,356 --> 00:00:53,236 Speaker 1: corrupting the youth. But Socrates's ideas didn't die with him. 12 00:00:53,396 --> 00:00:56,076 Speaker 1: Many other famous Greek thinkers picked up where their teacher 13 00:00:56,116 --> 00:00:59,076 Speaker 1: Socrates left off, and their work also has much to 14 00:00:59,116 --> 00:01:01,756 Speaker 1: teach us about how to live a flourishing life. We 15 00:01:01,836 --> 00:01:04,156 Speaker 1: looked at some of this wisdom in a previous season 16 00:01:04,276 --> 00:01:07,236 Speaker 1: of Happiness Lessons of the Ancients, again with the help 17 00:01:07,236 --> 00:01:10,156 Speaker 1: of my amazing friend Tomar Gendler. So, in case you 18 00:01:10,156 --> 00:01:12,436 Speaker 1: missed it last time, I wanted to share those past 19 00:01:12,476 --> 00:01:15,996 Speaker 1: episodes once again in a special doubleheader. Today you'll hear 20 00:01:16,036 --> 00:01:18,596 Speaker 1: some important insights on how we can realign the parts 21 00:01:18,596 --> 00:01:22,076 Speaker 1: of our minds from Socrates's student Plato, and you'll learn 22 00:01:22,116 --> 00:01:25,316 Speaker 1: about Aristotle, a real og happiness expert who has some 23 00:01:25,396 --> 00:01:27,596 Speaker 1: helpful tips on how we can feel happier with the 24 00:01:27,676 --> 00:01:30,596 Speaker 1: right habits. I hope you enjoyed these special back to 25 00:01:30,636 --> 00:01:37,596 Speaker 1: back episodes. We humans were already pretty complicated creatures, but 26 00:01:37,716 --> 00:01:40,036 Speaker 1: living in the modern world has added a ton more 27 00:01:40,076 --> 00:01:43,596 Speaker 1: complication to our lives. In past episodes of the Happiness Lab, 28 00:01:43,916 --> 00:01:47,676 Speaker 1: we've looked at the effects of things like jobs, school grades, smartphones, 29 00:01:47,716 --> 00:01:51,396 Speaker 1: and even alarm clocks on our wellbeing. These days, we 30 00:01:51,476 --> 00:01:54,676 Speaker 1: have so much going on, so many things demanding our attention, 31 00:01:54,836 --> 00:01:58,036 Speaker 1: and so many competing desires and emotions, that even if 32 00:01:58,076 --> 00:02:00,396 Speaker 1: you know what you're supposed to be doing, it often 33 00:02:00,436 --> 00:02:03,636 Speaker 1: feels like it's still hard to stay on track. It's 34 00:02:03,676 --> 00:02:06,476 Speaker 1: a bit like being a charioteer holding the reins of 35 00:02:06,596 --> 00:02:09,836 Speaker 1: two powerful but mismatched horses. You know you want to 36 00:02:09,876 --> 00:02:12,396 Speaker 1: reach a happy place, but each of the steeds keeps 37 00:02:12,436 --> 00:02:16,036 Speaker 1: going off in different directions. It's exhausted, but you'll only 38 00:02:16,076 --> 00:02:18,876 Speaker 1: reach your desired destination if you can get the horses 39 00:02:18,916 --> 00:02:22,356 Speaker 1: to work in harmony and pull together. Now, I know 40 00:02:22,396 --> 00:02:26,236 Speaker 1: what you're thinking. Chariots wayward horses. What's that got to 41 00:02:26,276 --> 00:02:29,516 Speaker 1: do with me navigating the modern world? Well. Even though 42 00:02:29,516 --> 00:02:32,396 Speaker 1: the science of happiness is a relatively new academic field, 43 00:02:32,836 --> 00:02:35,636 Speaker 1: most of the ideas underpinning all this research are far 44 00:02:35,716 --> 00:02:39,876 Speaker 1: from recent. Thinkers, philosophers, and spiritual leaders stretching back thousands 45 00:02:39,876 --> 00:02:43,076 Speaker 1: of years have figured out many important well being lessons 46 00:02:43,116 --> 00:02:45,876 Speaker 1: that are not only hugely relevant for all of us today, 47 00:02:46,316 --> 00:02:48,836 Speaker 1: but are backed up by the modern science. And that 48 00:02:48,956 --> 00:02:52,796 Speaker 1: includes my seemingly weird metaphor about the chariot. And so, 49 00:02:52,836 --> 00:02:55,076 Speaker 1: in this many season of the Happiness Lab, I want 50 00:02:55,076 --> 00:02:57,236 Speaker 1: to explore some of the well being concepts that the 51 00:02:57,316 --> 00:03:01,156 Speaker 1: ancient philosophies and great religions got right, old school tips 52 00:03:01,196 --> 00:03:03,636 Speaker 1: that are borne out by the science, and ones that 53 00:03:03,676 --> 00:03:06,036 Speaker 1: have personally helped me in my own quest to be 54 00:03:06,036 --> 00:03:09,556 Speaker 1: happier too. So welcome to Happiness Lessons of the Ancients 55 00:03:09,716 --> 00:03:18,316 Speaker 1: with me, Doctor Laurie Sanders Aristotle. He is absurd, Yeah, 56 00:03:18,356 --> 00:03:22,116 Speaker 1: it seems fine. This is tomar Getler, Professor of philosophy 57 00:03:22,116 --> 00:03:25,556 Speaker 1: and cognitive Science at Yale University. One two three, Okay, 58 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:27,996 Speaker 1: And the volume still looks okay on and also one 59 00:03:27,996 --> 00:03:30,796 Speaker 1: of my oldest and dearest friends, does that work all right? Okay, 60 00:03:30,916 --> 00:03:33,356 Speaker 1: Tomorrow and I talk pretty much every day, so it's 61 00:03:33,396 --> 00:03:35,036 Speaker 1: a little bit weird to be recording one of our 62 00:03:35,036 --> 00:03:37,876 Speaker 1: conversations for you all. Tomorrow is getting a crash course 63 00:03:38,036 --> 00:03:40,236 Speaker 1: on how to use one of my spare recorders. Okay, 64 00:03:40,396 --> 00:03:43,636 Speaker 1: let me give them another five. And she's taken to 65 00:03:43,716 --> 00:03:47,196 Speaker 1: podcasting like a total pro. I am totally ready to go. Hello. 66 00:03:47,716 --> 00:03:50,796 Speaker 1: Tomorrow also teaches a super popular class at Yale. It's 67 00:03:50,796 --> 00:03:54,476 Speaker 1: called Philosophy and the Science of Human Nature. Her class 68 00:03:54,516 --> 00:03:57,876 Speaker 1: looks way back in history to find philosophical solutions to 69 00:03:57,956 --> 00:04:01,196 Speaker 1: the problems we all face today. The idea that the 70 00:04:01,316 --> 00:04:04,436 Speaker 1: most interesting answer to the question that you're trying to 71 00:04:04,476 --> 00:04:07,036 Speaker 1: ask would be given by somebody who happens to be 72 00:04:07,116 --> 00:04:09,596 Speaker 1: on earth with you right now is a real mistake. 73 00:04:09,996 --> 00:04:12,996 Speaker 1: Sometimes the most interesting answer is something that somebody gave 74 00:04:13,356 --> 00:04:16,636 Speaker 1: two thousand years ago, or on a completely different continent, 75 00:04:16,876 --> 00:04:19,876 Speaker 1: or in a completely different context. The story of the 76 00:04:19,956 --> 00:04:23,036 Speaker 1: Chariot and the uncooperative horses is an analogy I find 77 00:04:23,116 --> 00:04:26,036 Speaker 1: really useful when reason tells me I should be shooting 78 00:04:26,036 --> 00:04:29,276 Speaker 1: for my happiness goals, but my desires, doubts, and emotions 79 00:04:29,436 --> 00:04:32,996 Speaker 1: keep pulling me off course. It's a powerful analogy, and 80 00:04:33,076 --> 00:04:35,916 Speaker 1: it comes from the work of ancient Greek philosophers. One 81 00:04:35,916 --> 00:04:38,356 Speaker 1: of the areas to our teaches in her course, there 82 00:04:38,436 --> 00:04:41,316 Speaker 1: was a period about twenty five hundred years ago in 83 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:45,756 Speaker 1: ancient Greece where a whole bunch of really smart people 84 00:04:46,356 --> 00:04:50,076 Speaker 1: directed their attention to a set of really interesting and 85 00:04:50,236 --> 00:04:54,356 Speaker 1: important questions, and society structured itself in such a way 86 00:04:54,356 --> 00:04:57,636 Speaker 1: that those individuals were given the freedom and the leisure 87 00:04:57,796 --> 00:05:02,796 Speaker 1: and the luxury to think about those questions as their profession. 88 00:05:03,196 --> 00:05:06,916 Speaker 1: What they did for their job was think about what 89 00:05:07,036 --> 00:05:10,876 Speaker 1: does it mean for human beings to and the community 90 00:05:10,916 --> 00:05:14,156 Speaker 1: of individuals talking to one another about that question meant 91 00:05:14,236 --> 00:05:17,756 Speaker 1: that they made more progress on it than other people 92 00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:21,236 Speaker 1: have at other times. And so it's a great luxury 93 00:05:21,276 --> 00:05:24,116 Speaker 1: to be able to help ourselves to their wisdom. So 94 00:05:24,156 --> 00:05:25,836 Speaker 1: today we're going to focus in on one of the 95 00:05:25,836 --> 00:05:28,476 Speaker 1: ancients who in my view is really considered sort of 96 00:05:28,476 --> 00:05:31,116 Speaker 1: the father of positive psychology, this field of the science 97 00:05:31,116 --> 00:05:33,916 Speaker 1: of well being, and that is Aristotle. So give us 98 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:36,276 Speaker 1: Aristotle one on one. Who was Aristotle and why was 99 00:05:36,316 --> 00:05:41,476 Speaker 1: he so important. So Aristotle was a guy from the countryside. 100 00:05:41,556 --> 00:05:45,756 Speaker 1: He didn't come from Athens, and his parents died when 101 00:05:45,756 --> 00:05:49,436 Speaker 1: he was quite young, so he was an orphan. And 102 00:05:49,476 --> 00:05:53,916 Speaker 1: when he was seventeen he was brought to Athens to 103 00:05:53,996 --> 00:05:59,236 Speaker 1: study in Plato's academy, and he liked school so much 104 00:05:59,596 --> 00:06:04,116 Speaker 1: that he stayed there as a student for another twenty years. 105 00:06:04,596 --> 00:06:10,356 Speaker 1: And Aristotle was just one of the greatest math thinkers 106 00:06:10,876 --> 00:06:13,796 Speaker 1: in the history of Western civilization. In addition to the 107 00:06:13,796 --> 00:06:17,396 Speaker 1: work that he did in philosophy, he's the inventor of 108 00:06:17,596 --> 00:06:21,116 Speaker 1: physics as a field, of biology as a field. He 109 00:06:21,276 --> 00:06:24,716 Speaker 1: was a great theorist of poetry, a great theorist of 110 00:06:24,956 --> 00:06:29,756 Speaker 1: drama and theater. And one of the major activities that 111 00:06:29,796 --> 00:06:32,796 Speaker 1: he undertook was to try to figure out what a 112 00:06:32,956 --> 00:06:37,876 Speaker 1: well lived human life might look like. And so he 113 00:06:37,916 --> 00:06:39,796 Speaker 1: came up with two concepts that I think are super 114 00:06:39,836 --> 00:06:41,836 Speaker 1: important when we try to think about happiness in the 115 00:06:41,876 --> 00:06:44,396 Speaker 1: modern day. And so one of these concepts was what 116 00:06:44,476 --> 00:06:48,516 Speaker 1: he called you diamonia, Like what is you diamonia? Yes, 117 00:06:48,716 --> 00:06:52,756 Speaker 1: so you diamonia has as its middle word the word 118 00:06:52,996 --> 00:06:58,076 Speaker 1: diamond or spirit. And if you've read his Dark Materials, books, 119 00:06:58,076 --> 00:07:00,836 Speaker 1: which are a wonderful series of children's books. You'll notice 120 00:07:00,916 --> 00:07:04,196 Speaker 1: that the spirit animal that people have in those books 121 00:07:04,276 --> 00:07:10,756 Speaker 1: is called their diamond. So you, diamonia is roughly spiritual flourishing, 122 00:07:11,076 --> 00:07:16,156 Speaker 1: spiritual well being, the thriving of what some traditions call 123 00:07:16,316 --> 00:07:19,556 Speaker 1: the human soul, what you might call the human mind 124 00:07:19,836 --> 00:07:23,556 Speaker 1: or human spirit. And so when we think of you, Diamondia, 125 00:07:23,676 --> 00:07:25,956 Speaker 1: we think of sort of spiritual flourishing. But the way 126 00:07:26,036 --> 00:07:28,316 Speaker 1: Aristotle thought of you, Diamondia, it was a little bit 127 00:07:28,316 --> 00:07:31,276 Speaker 1: different than we often think about happiness these days, right, Like, 128 00:07:31,316 --> 00:07:33,876 Speaker 1: it wasn't really happiness in the moment. It was kind 129 00:07:33,916 --> 00:07:37,516 Speaker 1: of a bigger, deeper, almost like moral happiness. Right. You 130 00:07:37,596 --> 00:07:41,556 Speaker 1: might think of two distinct notions of happiness. There are many, 131 00:07:41,636 --> 00:07:45,156 Speaker 1: but here are two. One is what we might call 132 00:07:45,276 --> 00:07:51,916 Speaker 1: hedonistic happiness, the indulgence of short lived pleasures, so the 133 00:07:52,036 --> 00:07:57,996 Speaker 1: pleasures of eating or of sex, and that's an important 134 00:07:58,116 --> 00:08:00,596 Speaker 1: part of what it is to be a human being, 135 00:08:00,796 --> 00:08:06,676 Speaker 1: taking pleasure in the physical world around you. But Aristotle 136 00:08:06,796 --> 00:08:11,076 Speaker 1: was interested in a richer and more robust, and more 137 00:08:11,236 --> 00:08:16,076 Speaker 1: lasting notion of what happiness would be, not just short 138 00:08:16,156 --> 00:08:21,876 Speaker 1: lived hedonistic pleasure, but long lived thriving, and he had 139 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:27,076 Speaker 1: a picture that there was a certain function for which 140 00:08:27,196 --> 00:08:32,116 Speaker 1: human beings were ideally built. So just as the function 141 00:08:32,156 --> 00:08:35,676 Speaker 1: of a knife is to cut well, and the function 142 00:08:35,716 --> 00:08:39,756 Speaker 1: of a paperweight is to hold down papers, the function 143 00:08:39,796 --> 00:08:43,356 Speaker 1: of a human being is to be able to express 144 00:08:43,716 --> 00:08:48,196 Speaker 1: virtue and reason, that is, to participate in the things 145 00:08:48,316 --> 00:08:51,276 Speaker 1: that are the highest form of the good in the world. 146 00:08:51,716 --> 00:08:55,036 Speaker 1: And so you Diamonia is a kind of thriving that 147 00:08:55,196 --> 00:09:00,876 Speaker 1: involves spending as much of your time and as complete 148 00:09:01,036 --> 00:09:05,076 Speaker 1: of your activity in a state where you are doing 149 00:09:05,156 --> 00:09:09,116 Speaker 1: things that are good, that are virtuous, that are pleasure 150 00:09:09,236 --> 00:09:12,476 Speaker 1: urable to you because you have turned yourself into someone 151 00:09:12,516 --> 00:09:16,756 Speaker 1: who takes pleasure in virtue, and so you Diamonia, in 152 00:09:16,836 --> 00:09:20,756 Speaker 1: contrast to hedonism, is a kind of lasting rather than 153 00:09:20,836 --> 00:09:24,356 Speaker 1: short lived pleasure. And it's so cool that Aristotle came 154 00:09:24,436 --> 00:09:26,316 Speaker 1: up with this so long ago, right, because this is 155 00:09:26,316 --> 00:09:28,316 Speaker 1: what's being born out in a lot of the modern 156 00:09:28,316 --> 00:09:30,676 Speaker 1: science of happiness. Right. You know, on this podcast, we 157 00:09:30,676 --> 00:09:33,916 Speaker 1: talk a lot about data suggesting that your circumstances don't 158 00:09:33,956 --> 00:09:36,436 Speaker 1: necessarily make you happy. You know, you could be rich 159 00:09:36,516 --> 00:09:38,676 Speaker 1: and have the opportunities to engage in all kinds of 160 00:09:38,716 --> 00:09:41,796 Speaker 1: hedonistic pleasure, but a lot of folks self report that 161 00:09:42,276 --> 00:09:44,676 Speaker 1: leaves them kind of empty, that they're kind of missing something. 162 00:09:45,036 --> 00:09:46,836 Speaker 1: And so Aristotle was kind of on top of this, 163 00:09:46,996 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 1: like you know, two thousand years ago. Right, Well, it's 164 00:09:49,876 --> 00:09:55,716 Speaker 1: really interesting that each era uses a particular mode of 165 00:09:56,036 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 1: understanding as its best way of making sense of the world. 166 00:10:00,436 --> 00:10:02,636 Speaker 1: And one of the things I try to teach in 167 00:10:02,676 --> 00:10:07,276 Speaker 1: my course is that there's lots of methodologies to coming 168 00:10:07,476 --> 00:10:12,196 Speaker 1: to the same insight. And so neuroscience gives us one 169 00:10:12,236 --> 00:10:15,796 Speaker 1: way of looking at what is it for us to 170 00:10:15,836 --> 00:10:19,596 Speaker 1: be in a state of happiness or harmony, and behavioral 171 00:10:19,636 --> 00:10:22,916 Speaker 1: psychology gives us another way of testing and measuring that, 172 00:10:23,516 --> 00:10:28,356 Speaker 1: and literary representations give us another way of identifying this. 173 00:10:28,836 --> 00:10:34,516 Speaker 1: And the kind of work that Aristotle did, a speculative, systematic, 174 00:10:34,676 --> 00:10:40,356 Speaker 1: philosophical exploration of what he observed in those around him, 175 00:10:40,796 --> 00:10:44,356 Speaker 1: is a methodology that very often brings us to the 176 00:10:44,436 --> 00:10:47,356 Speaker 1: same sorts of insights that we might get from literature 177 00:10:47,756 --> 00:10:51,596 Speaker 1: or neuroscience or behavioral psychology. I think the fact that 178 00:10:51,636 --> 00:10:53,756 Speaker 1: you need to do that kind of philosophical inquiry for 179 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:56,436 Speaker 1: these insights is important, right because another thing that comes 180 00:10:56,476 --> 00:10:58,356 Speaker 1: up on this podcast is that we often have incorrect 181 00:10:58,396 --> 00:11:00,196 Speaker 1: notions of the kinds of things that make us happy. 182 00:11:00,276 --> 00:11:03,116 Speaker 1: Right when we do a super fast introspection, we can think, oh, 183 00:11:03,156 --> 00:11:05,236 Speaker 1: I just want all the hedonistic pleasures and some good 184 00:11:05,276 --> 00:11:07,596 Speaker 1: food and sects and nice stuff to watch on Netflix. 185 00:11:07,996 --> 00:11:10,196 Speaker 1: But in fact, if you really do a deep dive, 186 00:11:10,356 --> 00:11:12,956 Speaker 1: that seems to be not what works. I think the 187 00:11:13,036 --> 00:11:17,516 Speaker 1: idea that the surface gives you one kind of information, 188 00:11:17,756 --> 00:11:20,956 Speaker 1: but that assembling a lot of surface phenomena and then 189 00:11:21,076 --> 00:11:25,276 Speaker 1: looking at what lies more deeply behind them gives you 190 00:11:25,316 --> 00:11:29,596 Speaker 1: a deeper understanding is an incredibly important insight. And a 191 00:11:29,636 --> 00:11:33,196 Speaker 1: lot of what the philosophical work that happened in ancient 192 00:11:33,276 --> 00:11:37,236 Speaker 1: Athens twenty five hundred years ago does is to say, 193 00:11:37,836 --> 00:11:43,116 Speaker 1: don't get deluded by this particular momentary sense. Look instead 194 00:11:43,316 --> 00:11:47,036 Speaker 1: at how these things patterned together, and you will have 195 00:11:47,076 --> 00:11:50,756 Speaker 1: a deeper understanding of what matters to human beings. And 196 00:11:50,796 --> 00:11:53,076 Speaker 1: so Aristotle, using that same approach, came up with a 197 00:11:53,076 --> 00:11:56,116 Speaker 1: different concept that I think is important for modern science 198 00:11:56,116 --> 00:11:58,356 Speaker 1: and happiness, which is a kind of different thing that 199 00:11:58,396 --> 00:12:00,276 Speaker 1: we get wrong, which is how our knowledge can help 200 00:12:00,356 --> 00:12:02,636 Speaker 1: us and how we get to know about happiness. And 201 00:12:02,636 --> 00:12:05,756 Speaker 1: this was his idea of phrensus, So what was this 202 00:12:05,756 --> 00:12:11,796 Speaker 1: concept of phreness. So, phrenesis is often inflated as practical wisdom. 203 00:12:12,516 --> 00:12:16,556 Speaker 1: To understand what that means, think about the contrast between 204 00:12:16,556 --> 00:12:19,796 Speaker 1: what we sometimes call the theoretical and what we call 205 00:12:19,916 --> 00:12:23,796 Speaker 1: the practical, or the difference between knowing that something is 206 00:12:23,836 --> 00:12:27,556 Speaker 1: a case and knowing how to do something. So, if 207 00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:29,876 Speaker 1: you're trying to figure out how to do something like 208 00:12:29,996 --> 00:12:34,556 Speaker 1: throw a baseball or play the piano, or respond in 209 00:12:34,596 --> 00:12:38,516 Speaker 1: a calm and temperate fashion when you're under a situation 210 00:12:38,556 --> 00:12:42,156 Speaker 1: of agitation, you can have a theoretical understanding of it. 211 00:12:42,236 --> 00:12:46,636 Speaker 1: You can understand lots of things about the physics of baseballs, 212 00:12:47,116 --> 00:12:51,196 Speaker 1: or about the acoustical properties of a piano, or you 213 00:12:51,236 --> 00:12:54,476 Speaker 1: can read a therapy book and understand what it is 214 00:12:54,516 --> 00:12:59,836 Speaker 1: when people respond calmly. That's theoretical wisdom. But the theoretical 215 00:12:59,916 --> 00:13:02,956 Speaker 1: wisdom doesn't give you the capacity to engage in the 216 00:13:03,036 --> 00:13:06,516 Speaker 1: action you want to engage in. In order to do that, 217 00:13:06,796 --> 00:13:10,796 Speaker 1: you actually need what Aristotle would call practical wisdom, a 218 00:13:10,916 --> 00:13:16,436 Speaker 1: kind of skill, the skill that comes from practicing the 219 00:13:16,476 --> 00:13:21,676 Speaker 1: activity about which you want to make progress. And so 220 00:13:21,956 --> 00:13:25,156 Speaker 1: Aristotle really thought that you, Diamonia isn't just kind of 221 00:13:25,156 --> 00:13:27,396 Speaker 1: something that we're born with or something we can kind 222 00:13:27,396 --> 00:13:29,636 Speaker 1: of get too. Theoretically, he really thought it was something 223 00:13:29,676 --> 00:13:31,676 Speaker 1: that you get to in a skill based way. Right, 224 00:13:32,356 --> 00:13:37,716 Speaker 1: So Aristotle thought, the strategy by which we gain this 225 00:13:37,836 --> 00:13:42,716 Speaker 1: kind of deeper thriving, the spiritual well being the u 226 00:13:42,796 --> 00:13:49,356 Speaker 1: diamonia is the strategy of making ourselves into the kind 227 00:13:49,396 --> 00:13:54,596 Speaker 1: of people who are virtuous and who take pleasure in virtue. 228 00:13:55,036 --> 00:13:59,796 Speaker 1: So it's a kind of self education project of building 229 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:03,676 Speaker 1: up in yourself the kind of soul you want to have. 230 00:14:04,236 --> 00:14:07,956 Speaker 1: You make yourself into the person that you want to be. 231 00:14:08,556 --> 00:14:11,596 Speaker 1: And aris sat is really aware of the way in 232 00:14:11,636 --> 00:14:16,596 Speaker 1: which that can be self reinforcing. You want yourself to 233 00:14:16,596 --> 00:14:20,716 Speaker 1: become a particular kind of person, you practice being that 234 00:14:20,836 --> 00:14:25,476 Speaker 1: kind of person and doing that kind of activity thereby 235 00:14:25,556 --> 00:14:29,756 Speaker 1: becomes pleasurable to you. And this is something that's also 236 00:14:29,836 --> 00:14:32,276 Speaker 1: really nicely borne out in the modern science. In one 237 00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:35,676 Speaker 1: of our podcast episodes, I interviewed as scientists Sonya Lubermerski. 238 00:14:35,876 --> 00:14:37,556 Speaker 1: In her book The How of Happiness, she has this 239 00:14:37,596 --> 00:14:39,996 Speaker 1: wonderful quote that you know, just as you learn a 240 00:14:40,116 --> 00:14:42,236 Speaker 1: violin by playing it, or just as you kind of 241 00:14:42,236 --> 00:14:44,476 Speaker 1: put a lot of work into raising a child. If 242 00:14:44,476 --> 00:14:46,756 Speaker 1: you want to bump up your happiness levels, you actually 243 00:14:46,756 --> 00:14:48,996 Speaker 1: have to put the work in. And that work isn't 244 00:14:48,996 --> 00:14:51,636 Speaker 1: just kind of theoretical work, it's actually engaging with it 245 00:14:51,676 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 1: in a real way and actually building up your happiness 246 00:14:54,436 --> 00:14:56,276 Speaker 1: kind of like a skill set, like from the ground up. 247 00:14:56,436 --> 00:15:00,916 Speaker 1: So the quote that you gave from Sonya Lubermersky is 248 00:15:00,956 --> 00:15:05,956 Speaker 1: actually a direct reference to Aristotle, who famously says that 249 00:15:05,996 --> 00:15:09,836 Speaker 1: we become builders by building, and we become harp by 250 00:15:10,116 --> 00:15:13,436 Speaker 1: playing the harp. And then he goes on to say 251 00:15:13,476 --> 00:15:16,156 Speaker 1: that just as the way you learn to be a 252 00:15:16,196 --> 00:15:18,916 Speaker 1: builder is by building buildings, and the way you learn 253 00:15:18,996 --> 00:15:22,116 Speaker 1: to play the harp is by playing the harp, so too, 254 00:15:22,156 --> 00:15:27,236 Speaker 1: says Aristotle, we become just by doing just actions, temperate 255 00:15:27,316 --> 00:15:31,636 Speaker 1: by doing temperate actions, brave by doing brave actions. That 256 00:15:31,836 --> 00:15:35,916 Speaker 1: is the way that we come to have practical wisdom 257 00:15:36,596 --> 00:15:40,316 Speaker 1: is by practicing the skill that we want to cultivate 258 00:15:40,796 --> 00:15:46,076 Speaker 1: so that it becomes natural to us. And Aristotle also 259 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:49,116 Speaker 1: had good ideas about which particular kinds of actions we 260 00:15:49,196 --> 00:15:51,516 Speaker 1: should want to practice, right, like, what are the kinds 261 00:15:51,556 --> 00:15:53,956 Speaker 1: of actions that will actually make us a virtuous and 262 00:15:53,996 --> 00:15:57,316 Speaker 1: therefore spiritually happy person. When we get back from the break, 263 00:15:57,356 --> 00:16:00,396 Speaker 1: we'll dive into that specific ways the Aristotle thought we 264 00:16:00,396 --> 00:16:02,636 Speaker 1: could achieve happiness, and what we'll see is that he 265 00:16:02,676 --> 00:16:05,356 Speaker 1: devoted two whole chapters to something you might not think 266 00:16:05,516 --> 00:16:11,556 Speaker 1: is that important, the happiness lab. We'll be right back. 267 00:16:23,036 --> 00:16:24,796 Speaker 1: So people who listen to the podcast hear a lot 268 00:16:24,836 --> 00:16:26,596 Speaker 1: about the kinds of things they can do to be 269 00:16:26,636 --> 00:16:29,916 Speaker 1: happy that are borne out by modern science. When Aristotle 270 00:16:30,036 --> 00:16:33,516 Speaker 1: thought about spiritual well being, this idea of eudaimonia, what 271 00:16:33,596 --> 00:16:35,716 Speaker 1: are the kinds of things he thought we should be 272 00:16:35,716 --> 00:16:37,796 Speaker 1: paying attention to? What are the sorts of actions he 273 00:16:37,916 --> 00:16:41,436 Speaker 1: wanted us to engage with. So he was really interested 274 00:16:41,676 --> 00:16:47,356 Speaker 1: in developing character that was what he called moderate in 275 00:16:47,476 --> 00:16:51,476 Speaker 1: exactly the right ways. And he viewed the virtues that 276 00:16:51,556 --> 00:16:56,276 Speaker 1: help us thrive as being cases of behavior that are 277 00:16:56,356 --> 00:17:01,036 Speaker 1: intermediate between two extremes. So it's easiest to think about 278 00:17:01,076 --> 00:17:04,636 Speaker 1: this in the case of something like bravery, where you 279 00:17:04,836 --> 00:17:08,676 Speaker 1: have an extreme of being a coward, you have an 280 00:17:08,676 --> 00:17:13,436 Speaker 1: extreme of being reckless, and in between those two things 281 00:17:14,196 --> 00:17:20,116 Speaker 1: is bravery, which Aristotle thinks of as the perfect moderate virtue, 282 00:17:20,996 --> 00:17:25,476 Speaker 1: or with regard to your character. You could be somber, 283 00:17:26,236 --> 00:17:30,756 Speaker 1: or you could be a buffoon, or you could be 284 00:17:30,836 --> 00:17:33,596 Speaker 1: somebody with a good sense of humor. And I love 285 00:17:33,636 --> 00:17:35,756 Speaker 1: this idea of the middle way because you know, it 286 00:17:35,756 --> 00:17:37,596 Speaker 1: fits with some of the things that we talk about 287 00:17:37,636 --> 00:17:39,996 Speaker 1: on the podcast, which is this idea that you know 288 00:17:40,036 --> 00:17:42,476 Speaker 1: you got to take baby steps towards the sorts of 289 00:17:42,516 --> 00:17:45,436 Speaker 1: actions you want to engage in to become happier. Right, 290 00:17:45,516 --> 00:17:47,756 Speaker 1: if I tell you that you know gratitude is really important, 291 00:17:47,756 --> 00:17:49,636 Speaker 1: for example, you don't want to so double down on 292 00:17:49,756 --> 00:17:53,676 Speaker 1: gratitude that you're stressing yourself out. So it's engaging in virtue, 293 00:17:53,716 --> 00:17:56,796 Speaker 1: but almost in a moderate and at baby step sort 294 00:17:56,796 --> 00:17:59,516 Speaker 1: of way. And the nice thing about thinking of virtue 295 00:17:59,556 --> 00:18:02,196 Speaker 1: as the middle way is that you always know what 296 00:18:02,276 --> 00:18:05,516 Speaker 1: the next thing to do is. If you're aiming to 297 00:18:05,596 --> 00:18:08,716 Speaker 1: be brave and you're a cowardly person, you don't have 298 00:18:08,756 --> 00:18:10,916 Speaker 1: to get all the way over to bravery. You just 299 00:18:10,956 --> 00:18:13,916 Speaker 1: have to take a small step towards bravery, and you're 300 00:18:13,956 --> 00:18:16,956 Speaker 1: moving to the middle. So by giving us a center 301 00:18:17,076 --> 00:18:22,996 Speaker 1: to move towards, we can make progress without being overwhelmed 302 00:18:23,036 --> 00:18:25,076 Speaker 1: at the prospect of what it is that we need 303 00:18:25,116 --> 00:18:27,156 Speaker 1: to change. We just need to change a little bit 304 00:18:27,796 --> 00:18:30,556 Speaker 1: and then the next day a little bit more, and 305 00:18:30,796 --> 00:18:35,356 Speaker 1: as Aristotle likes to point out, this becomes self reinforcing. 306 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:39,636 Speaker 1: He says, abstaining from pleasures makes us become temperate, and 307 00:18:39,676 --> 00:18:43,636 Speaker 1: once we've become temperate, we're more capable of abstaining from pleasures. 308 00:18:44,196 --> 00:18:48,236 Speaker 1: It's similar with bravery. Habituation in standing firm in frightening 309 00:18:48,276 --> 00:18:52,516 Speaker 1: situations makes us brave, and once we've become brave, we're 310 00:18:52,596 --> 00:18:55,756 Speaker 1: more capable of standing firm. So if you want to 311 00:18:55,796 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 1: be a brave person, act the way a brave person acts, 312 00:19:00,236 --> 00:19:05,276 Speaker 1: and you will manifest bravery, and you will be reinforced 313 00:19:05,316 --> 00:19:10,276 Speaker 1: in your experience about how pleasurable and possible it is 314 00:19:10,796 --> 00:19:14,716 Speaker 1: for you to act bravely. So Aristotle talked a lot 315 00:19:14,756 --> 00:19:17,116 Speaker 1: about different virtues, and that's one of the reasons his 316 00:19:17,236 --> 00:19:20,756 Speaker 1: book was really a book not about happiness or eudaimonia, 317 00:19:20,796 --> 00:19:23,076 Speaker 1: but it was a book about ethics. Right, So talk 318 00:19:23,076 --> 00:19:25,676 Speaker 1: about this important book and why it was so powerful 319 00:19:25,716 --> 00:19:29,156 Speaker 1: and Western thought. Sure, this is a book called the 320 00:19:29,436 --> 00:19:34,876 Speaker 1: nicomickeon Ethics, and it's a book in which Aristotle tries 321 00:19:34,956 --> 00:19:40,116 Speaker 1: to spell out what is it to live a virtuous life. 322 00:19:40,556 --> 00:19:43,276 Speaker 1: But his notion of virtue is a really broad one. 323 00:19:43,356 --> 00:19:46,036 Speaker 1: He means not just a life that is a moral life, 324 00:19:46,796 --> 00:19:51,876 Speaker 1: but a life that for the individual brings them this 325 00:19:52,036 --> 00:19:58,356 Speaker 1: eudaimonia thriving and happiness, and that for the society contributes 326 00:19:58,396 --> 00:20:02,116 Speaker 1: to a society in which there's thriving and happiness. So 327 00:20:02,516 --> 00:20:06,636 Speaker 1: this is a book about how to live well morally, 328 00:20:06,796 --> 00:20:10,716 Speaker 1: how to live well happily, and how to live well 329 00:20:10,876 --> 00:20:14,516 Speaker 1: in a way that is part of a harmonious society 330 00:20:14,716 --> 00:20:18,436 Speaker 1: where all are in a position to thrive. And this 331 00:20:18,476 --> 00:20:21,076 Speaker 1: is where I think the science really backs Aristotle up right, 332 00:20:21,116 --> 00:20:23,076 Speaker 1: because one thing we know is even if you're just 333 00:20:23,116 --> 00:20:26,076 Speaker 1: shooting for the happy life, the data really suggests that 334 00:20:26,116 --> 00:20:28,236 Speaker 1: what you want to do is to live a moral life. 335 00:20:28,276 --> 00:20:29,876 Speaker 1: You want to live a life where you're doing nice 336 00:20:29,876 --> 00:20:31,716 Speaker 1: things for others. You want to live a life where 337 00:20:31,716 --> 00:20:34,876 Speaker 1: you're really feeling connected to other people, where you're doing 338 00:20:34,916 --> 00:20:37,076 Speaker 1: something that is a job that gives you a meaning. 339 00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:39,316 Speaker 1: So in some sense, even if you were just shooting 340 00:20:39,316 --> 00:20:42,356 Speaker 1: for the eudaimonia part, you'd get these other two parts 341 00:20:42,356 --> 00:20:46,636 Speaker 1: as well. Right, It's exactly right. Aristotle thinks that human 342 00:20:46,756 --> 00:20:51,756 Speaker 1: beings are creatures where it's possible to become someone in 343 00:20:51,836 --> 00:20:57,396 Speaker 1: whom what gives you pleasure is causing other people to 344 00:20:57,596 --> 00:21:02,476 Speaker 1: thrive and do well. So for Aristotle, a healthy, thriving, 345 00:21:02,556 --> 00:21:07,196 Speaker 1: virtuous individual is a person who takes pleasure in others 346 00:21:07,436 --> 00:21:11,876 Speaker 1: also having lives that are filled with meaning, who takes 347 00:21:11,956 --> 00:21:17,356 Speaker 1: pleasure in being a situation where those around them are 348 00:21:17,516 --> 00:21:21,076 Speaker 1: also doing well. And that's one of the reasons that 349 00:21:21,116 --> 00:21:24,996 Speaker 1: Aristotle devoted two whole chapters in this important book to 350 00:21:25,116 --> 00:21:27,156 Speaker 1: something that we might not think about when we think 351 00:21:27,156 --> 00:21:30,596 Speaker 1: about virtue and ethics necessarily right, So what were those 352 00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:34,356 Speaker 1: two chapters about, Yeah, it's a great question. So this book, 353 00:21:34,396 --> 00:21:37,996 Speaker 1: which has ten chapters there were ten papyrus scrolls on 354 00:21:38,036 --> 00:21:42,396 Speaker 1: which the book was written, devotes chapters eight and nine 355 00:21:42,796 --> 00:21:46,556 Speaker 1: to the topic of friendship, and he thinks friendship is 356 00:21:46,796 --> 00:21:52,436 Speaker 1: incredibly important throughout our entire lives. He says, the young 357 00:21:52,596 --> 00:21:56,796 Speaker 1: need friendship to keep them from error, the old need 358 00:21:56,876 --> 00:22:01,156 Speaker 1: friendship to care for them and to support the actions 359 00:22:01,196 --> 00:22:04,956 Speaker 1: that fail because of weakness, and those in their prime 360 00:22:05,076 --> 00:22:09,676 Speaker 1: need friendship to do fine actions, for they are more 361 00:22:09,756 --> 00:22:15,716 Speaker 1: capable of understanding and acting when two go together. And 362 00:22:15,796 --> 00:22:18,836 Speaker 1: his idea of friendship was in part for a kind 363 00:22:18,876 --> 00:22:20,836 Speaker 1: of you know, hedonistic pleasure. You know, you get some 364 00:22:20,956 --> 00:22:23,036 Speaker 1: utility out of it. But he also thought that friends 365 00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:25,516 Speaker 1: could affect our happiness in a deeper and more meaningful 366 00:22:25,516 --> 00:22:30,916 Speaker 1: way as well. Actually, he distinguishes among three different kinds 367 00:22:31,036 --> 00:22:35,316 Speaker 1: of friendship. There's a kind of friendship, a relatively shallow 368 00:22:35,396 --> 00:22:38,716 Speaker 1: kind of friendship, which is friendship based on utility. I'm 369 00:22:38,756 --> 00:22:40,636 Speaker 1: friends with you because I get something out of it, 370 00:22:40,636 --> 00:22:42,836 Speaker 1: and your friends with me because you get something out 371 00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:45,356 Speaker 1: of it. There's a second kind of friendship, which is 372 00:22:45,396 --> 00:22:49,116 Speaker 1: a little bit richer, which is a friendship based on pleasure, 373 00:22:49,436 --> 00:22:53,036 Speaker 1: where I enjoy your company and you enjoy my company. 374 00:22:53,916 --> 00:22:57,796 Speaker 1: The kind of friendship that Aristotle is really interested in 375 00:22:58,356 --> 00:23:04,116 Speaker 1: is a friendship that's based on mutual appreciation of one 376 00:23:04,156 --> 00:23:08,796 Speaker 1: another's deep values. And whereas the first two kinds of 377 00:23:08,796 --> 00:23:12,756 Speaker 1: friend ship are accidental, they're limited in depth, they don't 378 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:16,236 Speaker 1: last a long time. A friendship that's based on a 379 00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:20,476 Speaker 1: deep appreciation of how my being in your presence makes 380 00:23:20,516 --> 00:23:23,516 Speaker 1: me a better person, and your being in my presence 381 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:26,596 Speaker 1: makes you a better person is a kind of friendship 382 00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:30,876 Speaker 1: that's lasting, and it fits with Aristotle's general picture that 383 00:23:30,996 --> 00:23:33,036 Speaker 1: what we want to do is to get ourselves into 384 00:23:33,196 --> 00:23:38,236 Speaker 1: self reinforcing cycles where we're doing something that works, and 385 00:23:38,356 --> 00:23:42,716 Speaker 1: because we're doing it and it works, we keep doing it. 386 00:23:42,756 --> 00:23:47,716 Speaker 1: So Aristotle calls a friend a second self, and he 387 00:23:47,916 --> 00:23:51,236 Speaker 1: thinks that one of the ways in which we can 388 00:23:51,516 --> 00:23:57,476 Speaker 1: help ourselves cultivate practical wisdom is by finding friends who 389 00:23:57,516 --> 00:24:00,876 Speaker 1: support us in that activity. So if I want to 390 00:24:00,916 --> 00:24:06,196 Speaker 1: be brave, I say to you, my virtuous, deep friend, 391 00:24:07,236 --> 00:24:12,716 Speaker 1: let's work on bravery together there, and I reinforce your bravery, 392 00:24:13,116 --> 00:24:17,276 Speaker 1: you reinforce my bravery. I get an extra self to 393 00:24:17,316 --> 00:24:20,716 Speaker 1: help me remain committed to what I want to do, 394 00:24:20,796 --> 00:24:24,556 Speaker 1: not just theoretically but practically, not just in my head, 395 00:24:24,956 --> 00:24:28,356 Speaker 1: but also in my actions. And this too fits with 396 00:24:28,396 --> 00:24:31,036 Speaker 1: a lot of what we know about the science of habits. Right. 397 00:24:31,076 --> 00:24:32,956 Speaker 1: You know, when you're trying to stick to a new 398 00:24:33,116 --> 00:24:35,636 Speaker 1: virtuous habit, or even just some habit that will improve 399 00:24:35,676 --> 00:24:37,876 Speaker 1: your happiness, say you want to exercise more, you want 400 00:24:37,876 --> 00:24:40,556 Speaker 1: to meditate, or right in your gratitude journal, one of 401 00:24:40,556 --> 00:24:42,676 Speaker 1: the things you can do from the habit literature is 402 00:24:42,716 --> 00:24:45,676 Speaker 1: to find social support. Right, you find a friend who's 403 00:24:45,716 --> 00:24:47,756 Speaker 1: good at that, who you can kind of say hey, 404 00:24:47,756 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 1: I'm going to do this with you, and then you 405 00:24:49,636 --> 00:24:51,716 Speaker 1: do that together, which is funny to tell you, Tomar, 406 00:24:51,796 --> 00:24:54,476 Speaker 1: because you are my exercise buddy, my hiking buddy, my 407 00:24:54,516 --> 00:24:59,236 Speaker 1: yoga buddy. So Laurie, Laurie is the person. In fact, 408 00:24:59,316 --> 00:25:02,076 Speaker 1: when Laurie had a broken leg, I discovered that my 409 00:25:02,196 --> 00:25:05,276 Speaker 1: second self had stopped hiking, and so my first self 410 00:25:05,516 --> 00:25:08,356 Speaker 1: stopped hiking. So it was a great relief to me 411 00:25:08,476 --> 00:25:11,756 Speaker 1: when you're got strong enough again for us to walk together. 412 00:25:12,036 --> 00:25:15,396 Speaker 1: But yes, this idea that one of the ways that 413 00:25:15,436 --> 00:25:18,556 Speaker 1: you can stick to your commitments is to surround yourself 414 00:25:18,636 --> 00:25:21,916 Speaker 1: by others who are also committed to those things. It's 415 00:25:21,996 --> 00:25:25,396 Speaker 1: part of really every wisdom traditions. So in the Buddhist 416 00:25:25,396 --> 00:25:29,996 Speaker 1: wisdom tradition, there's a notion that they call right association, 417 00:25:30,476 --> 00:25:33,836 Speaker 1: that is, surround yourself by others who are also committed 418 00:25:34,196 --> 00:25:39,356 Speaker 1: to this path towards spiritual enlightenment. And almost every religious 419 00:25:39,396 --> 00:25:44,476 Speaker 1: tradition involves communal activity of a kind that says, put 420 00:25:44,596 --> 00:25:48,796 Speaker 1: yourself in a setting where others are also trying to 421 00:25:48,796 --> 00:25:52,316 Speaker 1: pursue that kind of spiritual transcendence. And in fact, that 422 00:25:52,356 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 1: was actually the inspiration for one of the rewirements, these 423 00:25:55,756 --> 00:25:58,556 Speaker 1: sort of happiness practices that I did with my class. 424 00:25:58,996 --> 00:26:00,916 Speaker 1: One of the things I asked my students to do 425 00:26:01,036 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 1: is to take what I call a strength state, where 426 00:26:03,396 --> 00:26:05,476 Speaker 1: you hang out with a friend and you both try 427 00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:08,236 Speaker 1: to pursue some virtue that you want to get better at, 428 00:26:08,316 --> 00:26:10,676 Speaker 1: some strength you want to enhance, but the idea is 429 00:26:10,676 --> 00:26:12,956 Speaker 1: to do it with somebody else. And in fact, there's 430 00:26:13,236 --> 00:26:15,796 Speaker 1: evidence for Marty Seliman's group that this act of doing 431 00:26:15,796 --> 00:26:17,676 Speaker 1: a strength date with somebody can kind of give a 432 00:26:17,756 --> 00:26:19,996 Speaker 1: nice boost to your well being. So you've been a 433 00:26:19,996 --> 00:26:22,716 Speaker 1: scholar of Aristotle for some time now, have you been 434 00:26:22,756 --> 00:26:25,356 Speaker 1: following the middle way using his insights to go after 435 00:26:25,396 --> 00:26:31,636 Speaker 1: your own udaimonia? Pretty Much everything that Aristotle instructs us 436 00:26:31,676 --> 00:26:35,356 Speaker 1: to do is a part of my own attempt at 437 00:26:35,436 --> 00:26:40,156 Speaker 1: self improvement. The recognition that what I needed to do 438 00:26:40,316 --> 00:26:43,796 Speaker 1: to change a bad habit was just to move a 439 00:26:43,836 --> 00:26:48,516 Speaker 1: little bit towards a better version of it was an 440 00:26:48,516 --> 00:26:54,196 Speaker 1: incredible relief to me, as I found myself feeling overwhelmed 441 00:26:54,196 --> 00:26:57,036 Speaker 1: by changes that I want to make, and the idea 442 00:26:57,156 --> 00:27:01,396 Speaker 1: that in order to become somebody who had virtues that 443 00:27:01,516 --> 00:27:05,356 Speaker 1: I wanted, all I had to do was start acting 444 00:27:05,356 --> 00:27:10,716 Speaker 1: as if I already had those virtues was unbelievably liberating 445 00:27:10,756 --> 00:27:18,116 Speaker 1: and transformative for me. We're about the friend part and 446 00:27:18,356 --> 00:27:22,516 Speaker 1: for almost every change that I wanted to make, the 447 00:27:22,556 --> 00:27:27,236 Speaker 1: realization that I had a second self available to help 448 00:27:27,316 --> 00:27:31,756 Speaker 1: me do that. Most often in things at home, that 449 00:27:31,876 --> 00:27:36,236 Speaker 1: partner was my spouse or one of my children. But 450 00:27:36,356 --> 00:27:38,836 Speaker 1: for the big changes that I wanted to make in 451 00:27:38,916 --> 00:27:43,436 Speaker 1: my life, my friendship actually with you, Laurie, was one 452 00:27:43,636 --> 00:27:47,796 Speaker 1: of the factors that really enabled me to make those changes. 453 00:27:48,356 --> 00:27:52,516 Speaker 1: And I feel like the combination of Aristotle's wisdom from 454 00:27:52,516 --> 00:27:57,476 Speaker 1: twenty five hundred years ago and your friendship from one 455 00:27:57,516 --> 00:28:01,276 Speaker 1: and a half decades has been the key to allowing 456 00:28:01,276 --> 00:28:04,116 Speaker 1: me to thrive and flourish. Well. That is sweet to 457 00:28:04,156 --> 00:28:06,156 Speaker 1: hear you say, and right back after, because I feel 458 00:28:06,156 --> 00:28:09,116 Speaker 1: like when I think about the people who are pleasure 459 00:28:09,476 --> 00:28:12,196 Speaker 1: friends or friends of utility versus the ones that are 460 00:28:12,236 --> 00:28:14,796 Speaker 1: real friends of meeting, friends that get me towards virtue, 461 00:28:14,916 --> 00:28:17,516 Speaker 1: you are right up there too. So yeah, thank you, 462 00:28:17,676 --> 00:28:20,596 Speaker 1: And I just I mean, I hadn't realized it really 463 00:28:20,636 --> 00:28:24,396 Speaker 1: has been fifteen years. That's disturbing, but it makes sense. 464 00:28:26,676 --> 00:28:29,236 Speaker 1: The things tomorrow has taught me about Aristotle have helped 465 00:28:29,276 --> 00:28:31,316 Speaker 1: me a ton in my own quest to be happier 466 00:28:31,356 --> 00:28:34,596 Speaker 1: and more virtuous, things like the need to take action 467 00:28:34,796 --> 00:28:37,036 Speaker 1: to become the person you want to be and the 468 00:28:37,076 --> 00:28:39,756 Speaker 1: fact that all those tiny baby steps matter a lot. 469 00:28:41,196 --> 00:28:43,356 Speaker 1: But of course, one episode isn't going to be enough 470 00:28:43,396 --> 00:28:46,516 Speaker 1: to explore everything the ancient Greeks thought about achieving happiness. 471 00:28:47,156 --> 00:28:49,196 Speaker 1: So I hope you'll join me in tomorrow again, next 472 00:28:49,236 --> 00:28:52,116 Speaker 1: time when we introduce you to a different Greek thinker, 473 00:28:52,436 --> 00:28:55,436 Speaker 1: Plato and his advice for how you can control that 474 00:28:55,556 --> 00:29:01,276 Speaker 1: horse drawn chariot I keep talking about, and you'll be 475 00:29:01,276 --> 00:29:04,196 Speaker 1: able to hear that episode on happiness lessons from Plato 476 00:29:04,516 --> 00:29:13,516 Speaker 1: right after the short break from the second I opened 477 00:29:13,516 --> 00:29:15,876 Speaker 1: my eyes. Each morning, I'm locked in a battle with 478 00:29:15,996 --> 00:29:20,076 Speaker 1: a persistent and persuasive adversary, someone who seems dead set 479 00:29:20,156 --> 00:29:23,396 Speaker 1: on preventing me from practicing all of the happiness techniques 480 00:29:23,436 --> 00:29:26,076 Speaker 1: I teach you about in this podcast. I want to 481 00:29:26,076 --> 00:29:28,516 Speaker 1: plan my day so I don't feel time pressured, and 482 00:29:28,676 --> 00:29:31,236 Speaker 1: I want to meditate an exercise every morning, and I 483 00:29:31,276 --> 00:29:33,276 Speaker 1: want to do random acts of kindness throughout the day. 484 00:29:33,796 --> 00:29:36,436 Speaker 1: But my nemesis is right there encouraging me to do 485 00:29:36,476 --> 00:29:39,836 Speaker 1: the exact opposite, arguing that I should sleep in, or 486 00:29:39,876 --> 00:29:42,516 Speaker 1: I should buy something nice for myself, or I should 487 00:29:42,516 --> 00:29:45,276 Speaker 1: add yet one more event to my already packed schedule, 488 00:29:45,516 --> 00:29:47,556 Speaker 1: just to prove to people that I'm a hard worker. 489 00:29:48,396 --> 00:29:52,396 Speaker 1: Of course, the person sabotaging me is me, or maybe 490 00:29:52,396 --> 00:29:55,516 Speaker 1: more accurately, a few rogue parts of me, once that 491 00:29:55,556 --> 00:29:57,796 Speaker 1: I really want to control better, and I bet I'm 492 00:29:57,796 --> 00:30:00,796 Speaker 1: not alone. The temptations that divert us from doing things 493 00:30:00,836 --> 00:30:04,036 Speaker 1: that will make us happy are everywhere, and they're available 494 00:30:04,036 --> 00:30:07,236 Speaker 1: twenty four seven. But the people who first thought deeply 495 00:30:07,276 --> 00:30:11,516 Speaker 1: about the internal battles we all face lived centuries before smartphones, 496 00:30:11,676 --> 00:30:15,476 Speaker 1: movie streaming services, and calendar alerts. The ancient Greeks and 497 00:30:15,556 --> 00:30:18,796 Speaker 1: one thinker in particular, Plato, came up with some profoundly 498 00:30:18,796 --> 00:30:22,116 Speaker 1: important insights about our divided selves more than two thousand 499 00:30:22,236 --> 00:30:25,916 Speaker 1: years ago. As in other episodes of this mini season 500 00:30:25,956 --> 00:30:28,436 Speaker 1: of The Happiness Lab, I want to explore some of 501 00:30:28,476 --> 00:30:31,396 Speaker 1: the well being concepts that the ancient philosophies and great 502 00:30:31,436 --> 00:30:34,316 Speaker 1: religions got right, old school tips that are borne out 503 00:30:34,316 --> 00:30:36,956 Speaker 1: by the science, and ones that have personally helped me 504 00:30:37,196 --> 00:30:39,796 Speaker 1: in my own quest to be happier. So welcome to 505 00:30:39,876 --> 00:30:43,396 Speaker 1: happiness Lessons of the Ancients with me, Doctor Laurie Santos. 506 00:30:47,996 --> 00:30:50,076 Speaker 1: One of the things I've realized is that I am 507 00:30:50,076 --> 00:30:53,436 Speaker 1: inevitably going to be tempted if I work with my 508 00:30:53,556 --> 00:30:56,636 Speaker 1: phone next to me, I'll be getting texts. This is 509 00:30:56,636 --> 00:30:59,076 Speaker 1: my friend and Yale colleague to Mark Keendler. So when 510 00:30:59,116 --> 00:31:01,956 Speaker 1: I sit down at my desk to write, I actually 511 00:31:01,996 --> 00:31:05,836 Speaker 1: turn off the Wi Fi receiver on my computer so 512 00:31:06,076 --> 00:31:09,396 Speaker 1: that I won't even be tempted to look at the 513 00:31:09,436 --> 00:31:12,036 Speaker 1: other things while I'm getting the work done. Tomorrow and 514 00:31:12,036 --> 00:31:14,036 Speaker 1: I often trade notes about how to stay happy and 515 00:31:14,076 --> 00:31:18,076 Speaker 1: productive as busy academics. But Tomorrow brings something very special 516 00:31:18,116 --> 00:31:21,236 Speaker 1: to these conversations. She teaches a class at Yale called 517 00:31:21,236 --> 00:31:24,716 Speaker 1: Philosophy and the Science of Human Nature, and Plato's ideas 518 00:31:24,796 --> 00:31:27,876 Speaker 1: are central to her curriculum. So I asked Tomorrow to 519 00:31:27,916 --> 00:31:31,516 Speaker 1: give us Plato one oh one. So Plato was one 520 00:31:31,836 --> 00:31:36,836 Speaker 1: of the really cool ancient philosophers in Athens who gave 521 00:31:36,956 --> 00:31:42,916 Speaker 1: rise to the Western philosophical tradition, and he ran basically 522 00:31:42,996 --> 00:31:47,116 Speaker 1: a university which was called the Academy, where young men 523 00:31:47,436 --> 00:31:55,316 Speaker 1: from Athenian families would come and engage in unbelievably intellectually 524 00:31:55,436 --> 00:31:58,636 Speaker 1: interesting conversations with one another and with Plato, and with 525 00:31:58,676 --> 00:32:03,276 Speaker 1: Plato's teacher Socrates about the deepest questions of the age. 526 00:32:03,476 --> 00:32:07,236 Speaker 1: And one of the students at Plato's academy was a 527 00:32:07,276 --> 00:32:10,796 Speaker 1: guy named Aristotle. So this was like a pretty legit 528 00:32:10,836 --> 00:32:12,796 Speaker 1: thing to do if you were like a rich Athenian 529 00:32:12,876 --> 00:32:15,996 Speaker 1: guy and wanted to get educated. It didn't have the 530 00:32:15,996 --> 00:32:19,796 Speaker 1: formal structure of degree granting. It wasn't that you would 531 00:32:19,836 --> 00:32:22,396 Speaker 1: go there for four years, but it was the place 532 00:32:22,436 --> 00:32:26,996 Speaker 1: where people went if they wanted to understand fundamental ideas, 533 00:32:26,996 --> 00:32:31,076 Speaker 1: if they wanted to think about literature or philosophy, or 534 00:32:31,236 --> 00:32:35,996 Speaker 1: politics or mathematics. Those were the kinds of topics that 535 00:32:36,076 --> 00:32:39,396 Speaker 1: you could explore at Plato's academy. And Plato was kind 536 00:32:39,396 --> 00:32:41,276 Speaker 1: of the guy to learn from, in part because he 537 00:32:41,476 --> 00:32:44,876 Speaker 1: thought so deeply about so many different topics. But today 538 00:32:44,916 --> 00:32:47,116 Speaker 1: we're going to kind of focus in on Plato's ideas 539 00:32:47,156 --> 00:32:50,276 Speaker 1: for happiness and how we can control this self, which 540 00:32:50,316 --> 00:32:52,436 Speaker 1: was something he thought about a lot, right. Yeah. So 541 00:32:52,556 --> 00:32:55,196 Speaker 1: one of the things that's really interesting about ancient Greek 542 00:32:55,196 --> 00:32:59,476 Speaker 1: philosophy is that they connected all sorts of topics that 543 00:32:59,516 --> 00:33:01,676 Speaker 1: we think of as distinct from one another. So the 544 00:33:01,756 --> 00:33:05,756 Speaker 1: question of how can you be happy was a fundamental 545 00:33:05,836 --> 00:33:09,476 Speaker 1: question in ancient philosophy, because they were thinking about what's 546 00:33:09,476 --> 00:33:13,996 Speaker 1: the appropriate relation between the individual and their society, and 547 00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:16,956 Speaker 1: what's the nature of beauty and what's the nature of truth? 548 00:33:17,036 --> 00:33:20,716 Speaker 1: And so Plato would be teaching all of those things, 549 00:33:20,756 --> 00:33:25,396 Speaker 1: everything from mathematics to metaphysics to political theory. But part 550 00:33:25,396 --> 00:33:28,756 Speaker 1: of the reason for exploring that set of topics was 551 00:33:28,796 --> 00:33:32,356 Speaker 1: so that you could understand how is it possible for 552 00:33:32,396 --> 00:33:36,236 Speaker 1: an individual human being to flourish? How can they best 553 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:40,116 Speaker 1: align themselves so that they understand the nature of the 554 00:33:40,116 --> 00:33:44,756 Speaker 1: world and are most receptive to the world's excellence. And 555 00:33:44,796 --> 00:33:47,516 Speaker 1: so Plato didn't just think about this obviously. He was 556 00:33:47,556 --> 00:33:50,196 Speaker 1: a writer who created lots of influential books on this. 557 00:33:50,316 --> 00:33:52,236 Speaker 1: So talk to me about the importance of one of 558 00:33:52,236 --> 00:33:53,676 Speaker 1: the books that we're going to dig into a little 559 00:33:53,676 --> 00:33:57,076 Speaker 1: bit today, which is The Republic. So Plato wrote all 560 00:33:57,236 --> 00:34:00,916 Speaker 1: his books in the form of plays, and they were 561 00:34:01,036 --> 00:34:06,356 Speaker 1: plays where his teacher, Socrates was the main character. And 562 00:34:06,396 --> 00:34:10,036 Speaker 1: then various young men who were students at the university 563 00:34:10,436 --> 00:34:14,956 Speaker 1: were in conversation with Socrates about questions. And so one 564 00:34:14,996 --> 00:34:18,556 Speaker 1: of the most famous of the dialogues or books that 565 00:34:18,596 --> 00:34:22,356 Speaker 1: Plato wrote is a book called The Republic, and it 566 00:34:22,436 --> 00:34:26,396 Speaker 1: has ten chapters, and it's kind of a theory of everything. 567 00:34:26,876 --> 00:34:31,076 Speaker 1: It describes what's the fundamental nature of the universe, how 568 00:34:31,076 --> 00:34:34,916 Speaker 1: did it come into being? It talks about how mathematics 569 00:34:35,396 --> 00:34:40,036 Speaker 1: underpins all of physical reality. Then it talks about physics, 570 00:34:40,076 --> 00:34:43,716 Speaker 1: it talks about how we understand truth. But it does 571 00:34:43,916 --> 00:34:47,116 Speaker 1: all of that by telling the story of what the 572 00:34:47,276 --> 00:34:51,396 Speaker 1: ideal society would look like. What would a society look 573 00:34:51,476 --> 00:34:56,236 Speaker 1: like in which human beings are best able to flourish. 574 00:34:56,276 --> 00:34:58,836 Speaker 1: That's the question that Plato asks, and it turns out 575 00:34:58,876 --> 00:35:01,436 Speaker 1: that in order to answer that he has to explore 576 00:35:01,516 --> 00:35:05,796 Speaker 1: everything from mathematics to political theory. And in those stories, 577 00:35:05,796 --> 00:35:08,316 Speaker 1: Plato tells one of my favorite stories from the ancient 578 00:35:08,316 --> 00:35:12,196 Speaker 1: Greek times, the story of Leontius. What was the story 579 00:35:12,196 --> 00:35:14,236 Speaker 1: of Leontius and why was it so important for thinking 580 00:35:14,276 --> 00:35:17,236 Speaker 1: about human nature? So let me just start by telling 581 00:35:17,276 --> 00:35:20,756 Speaker 1: the story using Plato's words from the Republic, and then 582 00:35:20,756 --> 00:35:23,036 Speaker 1: I'll give you the moral of it. So the story 583 00:35:23,076 --> 00:35:26,076 Speaker 1: goes like this, Leontius was walking along the north wall 584 00:35:26,116 --> 00:35:30,956 Speaker 1: of the city. He saw some corpses lying at the 585 00:35:31,076 --> 00:35:34,756 Speaker 1: foot of the wall. He had an appetite to look 586 00:35:34,756 --> 00:35:37,356 Speaker 1: at them, but at the same time he was disgusted 587 00:35:37,636 --> 00:35:41,476 Speaker 1: and turned away. For a time, he struggled with himself 588 00:35:41,516 --> 00:35:45,036 Speaker 1: and covered his face, but finally, overpowered by the appetite, 589 00:35:45,396 --> 00:35:49,156 Speaker 1: he pushed his eyes wide open and rushed towards the 590 00:35:49,236 --> 00:35:54,516 Speaker 1: dead bodies, saying, look for yourselves, you evil eyes, take 591 00:35:54,596 --> 00:35:59,116 Speaker 1: your fill of this beautiful site. So Plato tells this 592 00:35:59,316 --> 00:36:02,196 Speaker 1: story at a point in the Republic where he's trying 593 00:36:02,476 --> 00:36:08,116 Speaker 1: to have his listeners understand that within every human being 594 00:36:08,316 --> 00:36:12,636 Speaker 1: there are multi parts pulling the person in multiple directions. 595 00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:16,476 Speaker 1: He wants to show you that you, like everyone else, 596 00:36:16,596 --> 00:36:20,276 Speaker 1: are filled with internal strife, and so the story that 597 00:36:20,356 --> 00:36:22,796 Speaker 1: he tells is basically the story of a rubber necker 598 00:36:22,916 --> 00:36:26,596 Speaker 1: on a highway. Leontius is walking home, right, He's supposed 599 00:36:26,636 --> 00:36:29,276 Speaker 1: to go efficiently into the north gate of the city, 600 00:36:29,556 --> 00:36:31,556 Speaker 1: and instead there's a dead body on the side of 601 00:36:31,596 --> 00:36:35,236 Speaker 1: the city wall, and he thinks, like, that's disgusting, don't 602 00:36:35,316 --> 00:36:38,396 Speaker 1: look at that. But part of him, it's just fascinated 603 00:36:38,476 --> 00:36:40,556 Speaker 1: and curious. And the part of him that's fascinated and 604 00:36:40,636 --> 00:36:43,316 Speaker 1: curious keeps pulling him towards the wall. And so the 605 00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:47,516 Speaker 1: story is about the internal tension that Leontius feels, his 606 00:36:47,836 --> 00:36:52,316 Speaker 1: effort to try to control himself, and then the phenomenology, 607 00:36:52,356 --> 00:36:54,836 Speaker 1: the experience that he feels of just giving in. I 608 00:36:54,876 --> 00:36:58,156 Speaker 1: can't control my appetite. I can't control my desire to 609 00:36:58,196 --> 00:37:00,876 Speaker 1: go look at these dead bodies, And as many of 610 00:37:00,956 --> 00:37:03,676 Speaker 1: us do, when we're driving past an accident, he turns 611 00:37:03,676 --> 00:37:06,396 Speaker 1: his head, he looks at the dead bodies, and he 612 00:37:06,556 --> 00:37:09,996 Speaker 1: slows his walk. But the one reason I love this 613 00:37:10,076 --> 00:37:11,836 Speaker 1: story so much is that, I mean, it's kind of morbid. 614 00:37:11,876 --> 00:37:13,556 Speaker 1: But the reason I love the story so much is 615 00:37:13,556 --> 00:37:16,556 Speaker 1: that this isn't a tale just about rubber necking. That 616 00:37:16,716 --> 00:37:19,556 Speaker 1: same internal strife that Plato is talking about is what 617 00:37:19,636 --> 00:37:22,196 Speaker 1: I experience in the morning when my alarm goes off 618 00:37:22,236 --> 00:37:24,236 Speaker 1: and I know I want to be committed to getting 619 00:37:24,276 --> 00:37:26,196 Speaker 1: up and hopping on the elliptical or getting up for 620 00:37:26,276 --> 00:37:29,916 Speaker 1: my morning meditation, but my appetite wants me to sleep in. 621 00:37:30,156 --> 00:37:32,236 Speaker 1: That's what he's talking about, right, That's what he's talking about. 622 00:37:32,276 --> 00:37:35,036 Speaker 1: In fact, the reason he tells the story is that 623 00:37:35,076 --> 00:37:37,556 Speaker 1: he wants to set himself up to make the general 624 00:37:37,636 --> 00:37:42,556 Speaker 1: point that human beings are set up inside in such 625 00:37:42,556 --> 00:37:46,396 Speaker 1: a way that even if their best self wants to 626 00:37:46,436 --> 00:37:49,956 Speaker 1: do something, they are always going to feel tensions. They're 627 00:37:49,996 --> 00:37:53,236 Speaker 1: always going to feel pulled in many directions. It can 628 00:37:53,276 --> 00:37:56,516 Speaker 1: be an email that pops up that sends you down 629 00:37:56,516 --> 00:37:59,796 Speaker 1: a rabbit hole on the Internet. And Plato's point is 630 00:38:00,276 --> 00:38:04,636 Speaker 1: that human beings inevitably find themselves in situations that they 631 00:38:04,676 --> 00:38:07,396 Speaker 1: feel pulled in multiple directions. One of the reasons Plato 632 00:38:07,476 --> 00:38:09,556 Speaker 1: was really obsessed with this is that he realized that 633 00:38:09,836 --> 00:38:12,196 Speaker 1: you can't just be a rational self because we have 634 00:38:12,276 --> 00:38:14,316 Speaker 1: these other parts of our mind. You actually have to 635 00:38:14,316 --> 00:38:16,996 Speaker 1: control a rational self to figure this out. And he 636 00:38:17,076 --> 00:38:19,436 Speaker 1: had this awesome metaphor that I've actually been telling my 637 00:38:19,476 --> 00:38:23,276 Speaker 1: podcast listeners throughout this whole season about this, that involved 638 00:38:23,316 --> 00:38:27,356 Speaker 1: a charioteer, right. Yeah. In fact, he uses different metaphors 639 00:38:27,356 --> 00:38:30,436 Speaker 1: to describe it in different books. In The Republic, which 640 00:38:30,476 --> 00:38:32,316 Speaker 1: is the book that has the layon to his story, 641 00:38:32,676 --> 00:38:34,556 Speaker 1: he says that a human being is made up of 642 00:38:34,596 --> 00:38:37,556 Speaker 1: three parts. They're made up of a human being basically 643 00:38:37,596 --> 00:38:40,956 Speaker 1: their head. They're made up of a lion, and they're 644 00:38:40,956 --> 00:38:44,076 Speaker 1: made up of a many headed monster, and the idea 645 00:38:44,116 --> 00:38:46,916 Speaker 1: is that the human being is reason, and the lion 646 00:38:47,076 --> 00:38:49,676 Speaker 1: is the part of you that's kind of proud, and 647 00:38:50,156 --> 00:38:52,236 Speaker 1: that the many headed beast is the part of you 648 00:38:52,276 --> 00:38:57,276 Speaker 1: that's interested in base passions like food and sex. But 649 00:38:57,396 --> 00:38:59,516 Speaker 1: in another one of his books, a book called The 650 00:38:59,556 --> 00:39:01,916 Speaker 1: Feed Risk, he gives an analogy that I think is 651 00:39:02,036 --> 00:39:05,716 Speaker 1: even more vivid, and he says a human being is 652 00:39:05,796 --> 00:39:10,716 Speaker 1: like a charioteer driving a chariot with two horses. One 653 00:39:11,036 --> 00:39:13,956 Speaker 1: is a noble horse and one is a wild horse. 654 00:39:14,476 --> 00:39:18,356 Speaker 1: And the noble horse is the part of a human being, 655 00:39:18,396 --> 00:39:23,796 Speaker 1: the aspects of ourselves that's interested in honor and social 656 00:39:23,876 --> 00:39:26,596 Speaker 1: interaction and what other people think of us. If I'm 657 00:39:26,636 --> 00:39:29,156 Speaker 1: supposed to sit home and do my podcast, but I 658 00:39:29,276 --> 00:39:33,396 Speaker 1: go out because I give into pure pressure because I 659 00:39:33,516 --> 00:39:36,556 Speaker 1: care what my friends think about me, or I spend 660 00:39:36,596 --> 00:39:39,236 Speaker 1: a lot of time focused on appearance because I want 661 00:39:39,236 --> 00:39:43,956 Speaker 1: to impress somebody. That's the horse of spirit. Whereas the 662 00:39:43,996 --> 00:39:46,956 Speaker 1: wild horse is the part of ourselves that's interested in 663 00:39:47,556 --> 00:39:51,636 Speaker 1: fundamental desires that we share with other non human animals, 664 00:39:51,716 --> 00:39:55,156 Speaker 1: like the desire for food or the desire to sleep 665 00:39:55,476 --> 00:39:59,076 Speaker 1: or take physical pleasure in things like sex, it needs 666 00:39:59,116 --> 00:40:03,036 Speaker 1: to take in nutrition, and it needs to ensure that 667 00:40:03,076 --> 00:40:06,596 Speaker 1: there are future generations. Those are the parts of ourselves 668 00:40:06,676 --> 00:40:10,796 Speaker 1: that he describes in the chariot analogy. But the Cherry ideas, 669 00:40:10,836 --> 00:40:14,236 Speaker 1: like any journey we're on towards better flourishing, any journey 670 00:40:14,276 --> 00:40:17,756 Speaker 1: we're on towards becoming happier people. One thing we have 671 00:40:17,836 --> 00:40:19,836 Speaker 1: to do is we have to deal with these horses 672 00:40:19,836 --> 00:40:21,876 Speaker 1: that are kind of out of control in running around. 673 00:40:22,276 --> 00:40:24,316 Speaker 1: It's not just that we have to deal with these horses. 674 00:40:24,396 --> 00:40:28,276 Speaker 1: Basically what moves us is the fact that we have 675 00:40:28,436 --> 00:40:32,556 Speaker 1: fundamental passions and desires. The metaphors really a powerful one 676 00:40:32,596 --> 00:40:35,276 Speaker 1: because it says it's not like, oh, if we could 677 00:40:35,316 --> 00:40:37,956 Speaker 1: just have the person part of ourselves, we'd be done 678 00:40:37,956 --> 00:40:41,476 Speaker 1: with things. The story says human beings are the kinds 679 00:40:41,476 --> 00:40:46,436 Speaker 1: of creatures who are propelled forward by physical desires and 680 00:40:46,476 --> 00:40:49,676 Speaker 1: by social desires, and the key to human flourishing. The 681 00:40:49,716 --> 00:40:52,996 Speaker 1: way to move fast on the path through life is 682 00:40:52,996 --> 00:40:55,836 Speaker 1: to make sure that you're in control of those horses, 683 00:40:55,916 --> 00:40:58,876 Speaker 1: that the parts of you that are passion and energy 684 00:40:59,276 --> 00:41:01,556 Speaker 1: are pulling you in the direction that you want to go, 685 00:41:01,996 --> 00:41:05,876 Speaker 1: instead of in some wild other direction that they're being pulled, 686 00:41:06,276 --> 00:41:08,236 Speaker 1: and so if we want to become happier people, we 687 00:41:08,316 --> 00:41:10,636 Speaker 1: need to figure out how to deal with this chariot system. 688 00:41:10,636 --> 00:41:12,996 Speaker 1: We need to get our charioteer to rein in these 689 00:41:12,996 --> 00:41:15,156 Speaker 1: horses and to let them bring us on our journey 690 00:41:15,196 --> 00:41:17,716 Speaker 1: in a really productive way. And we'll deal with that 691 00:41:17,796 --> 00:41:20,036 Speaker 1: question of how we actually do that well when the 692 00:41:20,116 --> 00:41:36,556 Speaker 1: happiness lab returns in a moment. So Plato was obsessed 693 00:41:36,556 --> 00:41:38,316 Speaker 1: with this idea that if we really want to be 694 00:41:38,316 --> 00:41:41,436 Speaker 1: happier people, we really need to reign in our desires 695 00:41:41,516 --> 00:41:43,836 Speaker 1: and our passions and really use them in the right ways. 696 00:41:44,116 --> 00:41:45,956 Speaker 1: But how do we do that? What did Plato figure 697 00:41:45,996 --> 00:41:48,116 Speaker 1: out and how does that drive with modern science. Let's 698 00:41:48,156 --> 00:41:50,836 Speaker 1: start by talking about the first horse, the horse of appetite. 699 00:41:51,116 --> 00:41:53,036 Speaker 1: What did Plato think about how we could kind of 700 00:41:53,076 --> 00:41:56,836 Speaker 1: reign in appetite in a productive way. Plato really took 701 00:41:56,876 --> 00:42:01,036 Speaker 1: this metaphor seriously. He saw it as illuminating because he 702 00:42:01,116 --> 00:42:05,236 Speaker 1: recognized what contemporary science has recognized, which is a big 703 00:42:05,276 --> 00:42:08,316 Speaker 1: part of human beings is non human beings. That is 704 00:42:08,316 --> 00:42:11,156 Speaker 1: a big part of our selves are animals. So Plato 705 00:42:11,316 --> 00:42:14,836 Speaker 1: basically recognized that the best way to deal with the 706 00:42:14,876 --> 00:42:18,396 Speaker 1: parts of ourselves that are like animals is by dealing 707 00:42:18,436 --> 00:42:20,836 Speaker 1: with them in the way that we deal with things 708 00:42:20,876 --> 00:42:24,316 Speaker 1: that are animals. So imagine you have a dog and 709 00:42:24,436 --> 00:42:27,596 Speaker 1: you don't want the dog to eat some delicious kind 710 00:42:27,636 --> 00:42:30,756 Speaker 1: of food. The best way to keep the dog from 711 00:42:30,796 --> 00:42:33,156 Speaker 1: eating that food is not to put the food in 712 00:42:33,196 --> 00:42:35,996 Speaker 1: front of the dog. The second best way might be 713 00:42:36,116 --> 00:42:38,796 Speaker 1: to put a muzzle on the dog. And your very 714 00:42:38,916 --> 00:42:40,996 Speaker 1: last choice is going to be to try to train 715 00:42:41,116 --> 00:42:43,076 Speaker 1: up your dogs so that it doesn't give in to 716 00:42:43,236 --> 00:42:46,956 Speaker 1: that temptation. So Plato had the same insight with regard 717 00:42:46,956 --> 00:42:49,796 Speaker 1: to human beings themselves. If you want to keep the 718 00:42:49,796 --> 00:42:52,876 Speaker 1: horse of appetite, the part of yourself that's tempted, the 719 00:42:52,876 --> 00:42:56,516 Speaker 1: best idea is to avoid temptations. If you can't do that, 720 00:42:56,876 --> 00:42:59,876 Speaker 1: then when you're in the presence of temptations, you should 721 00:42:59,956 --> 00:43:03,076 Speaker 1: keep yourself from looking at them. And only in the 722 00:43:03,116 --> 00:43:06,636 Speaker 1: most difficult situations where you can't keep the temptations away 723 00:43:06,796 --> 00:43:10,356 Speaker 1: and you can't keep your attention away from the temptations, 724 00:43:10,876 --> 00:43:13,716 Speaker 1: only then should you try to do it through certain 725 00:43:13,836 --> 00:43:17,236 Speaker 1: kinds of self control. And this is super important, right 726 00:43:17,276 --> 00:43:19,036 Speaker 1: because I think you know one of the things that 727 00:43:19,116 --> 00:43:21,916 Speaker 1: Plato is saying to us is that it's not going 728 00:43:21,956 --> 00:43:24,196 Speaker 1: to work to try to control our appetite just through 729 00:43:24,236 --> 00:43:27,916 Speaker 1: reflective processes alone. Right, Like just repeatedly telling myself, like 730 00:43:27,996 --> 00:43:30,636 Speaker 1: you know, I'm an happiness expert, like I should get 731 00:43:30,676 --> 00:43:32,716 Speaker 1: up in the morning and like, you know, go work out. 732 00:43:32,756 --> 00:43:35,236 Speaker 1: Like that doesn't work as well, Right, Like I need 733 00:43:35,596 --> 00:43:37,356 Speaker 1: cues to remind me to work out. I need to 734 00:43:37,356 --> 00:43:39,396 Speaker 1: have my shoes out, I need to have my gratitude 735 00:43:39,476 --> 00:43:41,436 Speaker 1: journal where I can see it. I need to pretend 736 00:43:41,556 --> 00:43:44,196 Speaker 1: like this appetite part of me is like a dog 737 00:43:44,236 --> 00:43:47,556 Speaker 1: that I'm basically trying to train in the simplest way possible. Right, 738 00:43:47,636 --> 00:43:50,916 Speaker 1: and idiocy in many ways literally true. That is, the 739 00:43:51,076 --> 00:43:55,876 Speaker 1: things that are attracting you to food that smells tempting 740 00:43:56,276 --> 00:43:59,916 Speaker 1: are the exact same features of your brain that a 741 00:43:59,996 --> 00:44:02,876 Speaker 1: non human animal has that's attracting it to food that 742 00:44:02,956 --> 00:44:05,476 Speaker 1: smells excellent. And in fact, there's a very good reason 743 00:44:05,556 --> 00:44:09,316 Speaker 1: for it. We've evolved to be responsive to food that 744 00:44:09,396 --> 00:44:13,596 Speaker 1: provides nutrition to us, and so Plato's point is, in 745 00:44:13,636 --> 00:44:16,756 Speaker 1: many ways, there's nothing you can do about the fact 746 00:44:16,796 --> 00:44:20,796 Speaker 1: that you will feel tempted. So your job is to 747 00:44:20,836 --> 00:44:24,636 Speaker 1: figure out to the extent that you can reduce the temptations, 748 00:44:25,356 --> 00:44:29,116 Speaker 1: use the cues, and if you can't, only then do 749 00:44:29,156 --> 00:44:31,796 Speaker 1: you use the willpower of the charioteer. You don't have 750 00:44:31,916 --> 00:44:34,916 Speaker 1: enough strengthen the reins to do it always by the rains. 751 00:44:34,996 --> 00:44:38,116 Speaker 1: You've got to get the horse to cooperate. And what's 752 00:44:38,156 --> 00:44:40,556 Speaker 1: amazing is that there's like thousands of years ago, but 753 00:44:40,676 --> 00:44:44,956 Speaker 1: basically Plato is foreshadowing everything that we know about the 754 00:44:45,036 --> 00:44:48,676 Speaker 1: modern science of habit formation. Right, Like, the easiest way 755 00:44:48,716 --> 00:44:51,596 Speaker 1: to kind of get yourself to like control your appetite 756 00:44:51,916 --> 00:44:53,676 Speaker 1: is to get rid of the thing that you don't 757 00:44:53,676 --> 00:44:55,476 Speaker 1: want to be tempted by, you know, whether that's the 758 00:44:55,516 --> 00:44:59,036 Speaker 1: your phone or the internet, or fattening food or whatever 759 00:44:59,036 --> 00:45:01,276 Speaker 1: it happens to be. Is just to get that out 760 00:45:01,276 --> 00:45:03,316 Speaker 1: of there. And by the same token, if there's something 761 00:45:03,356 --> 00:45:06,116 Speaker 1: you want your brain to do, make it really obvious 762 00:45:06,116 --> 00:45:08,436 Speaker 1: in the situation, right, you know, put your gratitude journal 763 00:45:08,476 --> 00:45:11,236 Speaker 1: out there, like make your gym shoes available. That's right. 764 00:45:11,356 --> 00:45:14,996 Speaker 1: The easier you make it for yourself to do it automatically, 765 00:45:15,276 --> 00:45:17,556 Speaker 1: the better off you're going to be. In fact, there's 766 00:45:17,556 --> 00:45:21,516 Speaker 1: a famous Greek story that's in a book by Homer 767 00:45:21,596 --> 00:45:25,356 Speaker 1: called the Odyssey, and it's the story of this guy Ulysses. 768 00:45:25,396 --> 00:45:29,116 Speaker 1: He's trying to get home and he's going past an 769 00:45:29,156 --> 00:45:33,556 Speaker 1: island where there's really tempting music, and he knows that 770 00:45:33,596 --> 00:45:36,516 Speaker 1: if you hear that music, you're inclined to jump off 771 00:45:36,556 --> 00:45:39,916 Speaker 1: the ship and join the singers because the music is 772 00:45:39,956 --> 00:45:44,076 Speaker 1: so beautiful. And in the story, Homer tells two ways 773 00:45:44,076 --> 00:45:48,276 Speaker 1: of getting past that temptation. The oarsmen who are rowing 774 00:45:48,316 --> 00:45:51,476 Speaker 1: the boat block their ears so that they can't hear 775 00:45:51,516 --> 00:45:55,116 Speaker 1: the sound. And Ulysses, who wants to hear the sound 776 00:45:55,156 --> 00:45:58,316 Speaker 1: but not be able to act on it, has his 777 00:45:59,116 --> 00:46:02,876 Speaker 1: soldiers tie him to the mast of the ship. So 778 00:46:02,956 --> 00:46:07,076 Speaker 1: that story is like Plato's story of the Horse. The 779 00:46:07,156 --> 00:46:10,676 Speaker 1: horse is always going to be ten did So if 780 00:46:10,756 --> 00:46:13,596 Speaker 1: you have a temptation and you haven't put a mechanism 781 00:46:13,596 --> 00:46:16,396 Speaker 1: in place either to take it out of sight or 782 00:46:16,436 --> 00:46:19,276 Speaker 1: to control yourself in the face of it, it's going 783 00:46:19,316 --> 00:46:22,236 Speaker 1: to be really, really hard to avoid it. But all 784 00:46:22,276 --> 00:46:26,596 Speaker 1: of the strategies that you're describing make the alternate activity 785 00:46:26,716 --> 00:46:29,636 Speaker 1: salient rather than the one you want to avoid or 786 00:46:29,956 --> 00:46:32,796 Speaker 1: take away access. Put your phone in a ziplock bag 787 00:46:32,876 --> 00:46:35,516 Speaker 1: so you can't touch it, turn off the Wi Fi 788 00:46:35,636 --> 00:46:39,116 Speaker 1: on your internet, don't have chocolate in the house. All 789 00:46:39,156 --> 00:46:42,476 Speaker 1: of those are exactly the strategies that the ancient Greeks 790 00:46:42,516 --> 00:46:45,716 Speaker 1: were using. In Homer's case, that story is almost eight 791 00:46:45,716 --> 00:46:48,436 Speaker 1: thousand years old. All of these strategies, even though they're 792 00:46:48,436 --> 00:46:50,956 Speaker 1: so ancient, what science is finding is that if you 793 00:46:51,076 --> 00:46:54,156 Speaker 1: use them, you're going to actually be successful at regulating 794 00:46:54,156 --> 00:46:57,876 Speaker 1: your appetite. It is a recognition of something that is 795 00:46:57,996 --> 00:47:02,516 Speaker 1: so deeply part of human nature and human experience that 796 00:47:02,796 --> 00:47:07,036 Speaker 1: basically every world wisdom tradition tries to describe it in 797 00:47:07,076 --> 00:47:10,756 Speaker 1: some way. The Buddhist tradition has an analogy of a 798 00:47:10,996 --> 00:47:14,836 Speaker 1: rider and an elephant, and it's the same idea. It's 799 00:47:14,876 --> 00:47:18,836 Speaker 1: the idea that part of you is pulled in one direction, 800 00:47:19,436 --> 00:47:23,236 Speaker 1: and that there's a huge set of desires and passions 801 00:47:23,316 --> 00:47:27,636 Speaker 1: which pull in other directions. And many world religions are 802 00:47:27,716 --> 00:47:33,116 Speaker 1: about building structures that help you regulate those forces and energies, 803 00:47:33,316 --> 00:47:36,196 Speaker 1: and a lot of the things that modern science shows 804 00:47:36,356 --> 00:47:42,356 Speaker 1: to be effective mechanisms are actually there. In religious traditions. 805 00:47:42,396 --> 00:47:45,316 Speaker 1: You build rules around what kind of food you can 806 00:47:45,396 --> 00:47:49,676 Speaker 1: eat when in a religion, and it's exactly the same 807 00:47:49,756 --> 00:47:52,676 Speaker 1: insight that you see in the modern science. In addition 808 00:47:52,676 --> 00:47:55,356 Speaker 1: to the modern science saying that these are really good strategies, 809 00:47:55,916 --> 00:47:58,276 Speaker 1: the other thing that we know scientifically is that people 810 00:47:58,356 --> 00:48:01,236 Speaker 1: who are good at regulating their appetites they do that 811 00:48:01,396 --> 00:48:04,116 Speaker 1: because they use these strategies. Yeah, one of the things 812 00:48:04,156 --> 00:48:07,836 Speaker 1: that's really interesting is that people who are best at 813 00:48:07,876 --> 00:48:13,196 Speaker 1: self control are actually best at setting up situations in 814 00:48:13,196 --> 00:48:17,956 Speaker 1: which they don't have to exercise self control. So a 815 00:48:18,116 --> 00:48:22,556 Speaker 1: kid who's good at doing homework isn't good at not 816 00:48:22,636 --> 00:48:24,676 Speaker 1: looking at the phone that's right in front of them 817 00:48:24,716 --> 00:48:27,436 Speaker 1: while they're doing homework. What that kid is good at 818 00:48:27,676 --> 00:48:30,196 Speaker 1: is setting up their room in such a way that 819 00:48:30,316 --> 00:48:33,436 Speaker 1: they aren't tempted by the phone in the first place. 820 00:48:33,996 --> 00:48:37,756 Speaker 1: The more effective somebody is at what we think of 821 00:48:37,756 --> 00:48:41,596 Speaker 1: at self control and self regulation, the more likely it 822 00:48:41,836 --> 00:48:45,196 Speaker 1: is that they seldom put themselves into situations where they 823 00:48:45,316 --> 00:48:48,596 Speaker 1: even feel tempted. And that's why I love the charioteer 824 00:48:48,636 --> 00:48:50,956 Speaker 1: metaphor and why I keep telling my podcast listeners about 825 00:48:50,996 --> 00:48:53,476 Speaker 1: it in this mini season, is that I get that 826 00:48:53,596 --> 00:48:55,876 Speaker 1: intuition so much from the metaphor, right, Like, it's a 827 00:48:55,956 --> 00:48:58,556 Speaker 1: pain to be holding onto these reins, as this appetite 828 00:48:58,556 --> 00:49:01,196 Speaker 1: horse is going crazy like that requires a lot of work. 829 00:49:01,476 --> 00:49:03,556 Speaker 1: But if you just put blinders on the horse, you know, 830 00:49:03,596 --> 00:49:05,556 Speaker 1: if you can just help the horse, then you don't 831 00:49:05,556 --> 00:49:07,956 Speaker 1: have to worry about like holding onto these reins super hard, 832 00:49:07,956 --> 00:49:11,356 Speaker 1: because the horse is just going to be behaving correctly anyway. 833 00:49:11,516 --> 00:49:15,196 Speaker 1: It's exactly right. Set yourself up in situations where you 834 00:49:15,196 --> 00:49:19,036 Speaker 1: don't have to expend all your chariot, your energy controlling 835 00:49:19,076 --> 00:49:21,996 Speaker 1: these horses. So that was what Plato thought about the 836 00:49:22,036 --> 00:49:24,836 Speaker 1: appetite horse, right, this horse that's kind of going for 837 00:49:24,956 --> 00:49:28,116 Speaker 1: you like food and like all the kind of physical pleasures. 838 00:49:28,356 --> 00:49:31,116 Speaker 1: But Plato also worried about a different horse, which is 839 00:49:31,156 --> 00:49:33,316 Speaker 1: this horse of spirit, right, which is kind of like, 840 00:49:33,516 --> 00:49:35,316 Speaker 1: you know, that's the horse that leads me astray every 841 00:49:35,356 --> 00:49:37,396 Speaker 1: time I'm trying to like ease myself off of social 842 00:49:37,436 --> 00:49:40,276 Speaker 1: media or not react to some dumb fomo instinct or 843 00:49:40,276 --> 00:49:43,116 Speaker 1: so on. Did Plato also give us some insight about 844 00:49:43,116 --> 00:49:45,716 Speaker 1: how we could control of that horse. The best way 845 00:49:45,716 --> 00:49:48,956 Speaker 1: to control the horse of spirit, the horse of honor, 846 00:49:49,556 --> 00:49:53,796 Speaker 1: is by cultivating habits that are going to become the 847 00:49:53,956 --> 00:49:57,236 Speaker 1: natural way that that horse behaves. So if you think 848 00:49:57,276 --> 00:50:00,316 Speaker 1: about it. The horse of appetite is never going to 849 00:50:00,556 --> 00:50:04,276 Speaker 1: change what it's attracted to. The horse of spirit is 850 00:50:04,316 --> 00:50:07,716 Speaker 1: a trainable horse. And in fact, one of the distinctions 851 00:50:07,716 --> 00:50:10,636 Speaker 1: that Plato makes when he presents the metaphor is that 852 00:50:10,756 --> 00:50:13,876 Speaker 1: he says, the horse of appetite cannot be controlled except 853 00:50:13,876 --> 00:50:18,316 Speaker 1: through punishment, whereas the horse of spirit can be controlled 854 00:50:18,356 --> 00:50:21,836 Speaker 1: through argument and explanation. And so how does the sort 855 00:50:21,876 --> 00:50:24,076 Speaker 1: of training work, right, Like, how do we actually train 856 00:50:24,196 --> 00:50:26,876 Speaker 1: up our spirit horse over time? Yeah, So one of 857 00:50:26,876 --> 00:50:29,276 Speaker 1: the interesting things about how we train up our spirit 858 00:50:29,316 --> 00:50:32,116 Speaker 1: horse is that what we try to do is to 859 00:50:32,156 --> 00:50:35,556 Speaker 1: make it natural and pleasurable for the spirit horse to 860 00:50:35,716 --> 00:50:38,276 Speaker 1: do the thing that we want it reflectively to do. 861 00:50:38,756 --> 00:50:41,396 Speaker 1: And one of the nice things about human beings is 862 00:50:41,476 --> 00:50:45,196 Speaker 1: that we enjoy a certain sort of familiarity that when 863 00:50:45,236 --> 00:50:48,516 Speaker 1: we get good at something, we take pleasure in doing it. 864 00:50:48,956 --> 00:50:52,716 Speaker 1: So if you train your spirit horse actually to take pleasure, 865 00:50:52,796 --> 00:50:55,676 Speaker 1: you sit down and you write in your gratitude journal 866 00:50:55,716 --> 00:50:59,996 Speaker 1: every day, and you discover actually writing in this makes 867 00:50:59,996 --> 00:51:03,156 Speaker 1: me feel connected to people. That's a way of co 868 00:51:03,396 --> 00:51:06,436 Speaker 1: opting the energy of the spirit horse so that it 869 00:51:06,556 --> 00:51:09,876 Speaker 1: takes you along your pathway without you having to steer 870 00:51:09,956 --> 00:51:12,716 Speaker 1: it using the reins, and so Plato really thought that 871 00:51:12,716 --> 00:51:14,436 Speaker 1: this was something that we could do with the right 872 00:51:14,436 --> 00:51:16,996 Speaker 1: sorts of strategies. Right, Like, did you get a sense 873 00:51:16,996 --> 00:51:19,316 Speaker 1: that Plato himself did it or that his students did it. 874 00:51:19,676 --> 00:51:24,956 Speaker 1: So Plato had this incredible university, right, I mean, it 875 00:51:24,996 --> 00:51:27,996 Speaker 1: was the first place people came together. And it is 876 00:51:28,396 --> 00:51:32,396 Speaker 1: true that the academy it was just this enclosure outside 877 00:51:32,436 --> 00:51:36,556 Speaker 1: of Athens. I think what drew people there originally was 878 00:51:36,596 --> 00:51:39,316 Speaker 1: the possibility of social interaction. It was a kind of 879 00:51:39,436 --> 00:51:43,196 Speaker 1: high prestige space to be in. All the cool kids 880 00:51:43,236 --> 00:51:46,156 Speaker 1: were hanging out there, and then all the cool kids 881 00:51:46,156 --> 00:51:49,556 Speaker 1: were hanging out there. And then Plato taught him some math, 882 00:51:50,036 --> 00:51:52,596 Speaker 1: and then he taught him some metaphysics, and then he 883 00:51:52,716 --> 00:51:55,996 Speaker 1: taught him some political theory. And so there's a way 884 00:51:56,036 --> 00:51:59,596 Speaker 1: in which the fact that human beings are social beings 885 00:52:00,076 --> 00:52:04,956 Speaker 1: is what allowed Plato to create this academy where people 886 00:52:05,036 --> 00:52:07,796 Speaker 1: came together and then once they were with each other, 887 00:52:07,836 --> 00:52:10,796 Speaker 1: they could take pleasure in interacting with each other and 888 00:52:10,916 --> 00:52:14,316 Speaker 1: thinking about ideas. That's cool. So Plato was basically using 889 00:52:14,316 --> 00:52:16,516 Speaker 1: the spirit horse of their students to like, you know, 890 00:52:16,596 --> 00:52:18,836 Speaker 1: drag their charioteer to the academy, and then they could 891 00:52:18,916 --> 00:52:20,996 Speaker 1: learn all this good stuff exactly. And then the chariotier 892 00:52:21,076 --> 00:52:23,116 Speaker 1: gets to the academy, it learns all the stuff, and 893 00:52:23,156 --> 00:52:26,676 Speaker 1: then it realizes that this was in fact attacked it 894 00:52:26,796 --> 00:52:29,676 Speaker 1: that played off its spirit. So as someone who teaches Plato, 895 00:52:30,036 --> 00:52:32,436 Speaker 1: are there ways that you've used his insight to train 896 00:52:32,516 --> 00:52:36,116 Speaker 1: your own horses? Oh? I would say just about everything 897 00:52:36,156 --> 00:52:40,876 Speaker 1: in my life comes from the insights that I've gotten 898 00:52:40,996 --> 00:52:45,036 Speaker 1: from thinking about the ways in which these habits can 899 00:52:45,276 --> 00:52:51,076 Speaker 1: structure our lives. So during the quarantine, my family made 900 00:52:51,116 --> 00:52:54,956 Speaker 1: a habit. I had unexpectedly two kids home from school 901 00:52:54,956 --> 00:52:57,556 Speaker 1: who had been living away, and we just made it 902 00:52:57,556 --> 00:53:00,596 Speaker 1: a routine that every night at seven thirty, we would 903 00:53:00,636 --> 00:53:04,076 Speaker 1: eat dinner together as a family, and it just came 904 00:53:04,116 --> 00:53:06,836 Speaker 1: to feel like a fact about the world. It wasn't 905 00:53:06,876 --> 00:53:09,116 Speaker 1: like we had to think about should we go downstairs 906 00:53:09,276 --> 00:53:11,916 Speaker 1: at seven thirty. We just made it part of our 907 00:53:11,956 --> 00:53:15,396 Speaker 1: family's routine, and as a consequence, we spent time with 908 00:53:15,436 --> 00:53:18,356 Speaker 1: each other, and then we remembered we like being with 909 00:53:18,396 --> 00:53:21,156 Speaker 1: one another, and then it stopped seeming like something governed 910 00:53:21,196 --> 00:53:24,476 Speaker 1: by the watch and just started seeming like what it 911 00:53:24,556 --> 00:53:26,676 Speaker 1: is that we wanted to do naturally. We wanted to 912 00:53:26,676 --> 00:53:29,236 Speaker 1: go down, we wanted to eat together, and we wanted 913 00:53:29,276 --> 00:53:31,676 Speaker 1: to spend time with one another. It seemed like the 914 00:53:31,716 --> 00:53:34,436 Speaker 1: Greeks are fantastic at recognizing not just that we have 915 00:53:34,596 --> 00:53:37,596 Speaker 1: these warring parts of ourselves, but they also gave us 916 00:53:37,636 --> 00:53:39,996 Speaker 1: some insight into how we could control those different parts 917 00:53:39,996 --> 00:53:42,436 Speaker 1: over time to flourish a little bit better. Kind of 918 00:53:42,516 --> 00:53:44,716 Speaker 1: what was the next steps, like what did the Greeks 919 00:53:44,796 --> 00:53:47,036 Speaker 1: kind of leave in terms of their legacy for the 920 00:53:47,036 --> 00:53:50,356 Speaker 1: next thinkers to come around and sort out. Yeah, so 921 00:53:50,556 --> 00:53:54,836 Speaker 1: there's real insight if we'd Plato an Aristotle about how 922 00:53:54,956 --> 00:54:00,996 Speaker 1: to control drives in ourselves. But you don't get in 923 00:54:01,156 --> 00:54:05,956 Speaker 1: Plato an Aristotle explicitly the thought that actually the charioteer 924 00:54:06,396 --> 00:54:09,596 Speaker 1: can do the same sort of tricks on it self. 925 00:54:10,076 --> 00:54:12,876 Speaker 1: And one of the things that you start getting in 926 00:54:12,916 --> 00:54:16,196 Speaker 1: a tradition that starts just a couple hundred years later 927 00:54:16,236 --> 00:54:20,676 Speaker 1: in writers like Epictitis is the idea that in fact, 928 00:54:21,316 --> 00:54:25,476 Speaker 1: you can control how it is that you represent the 929 00:54:25,516 --> 00:54:30,036 Speaker 1: world to yourself, and that you can think about things 930 00:54:30,076 --> 00:54:32,876 Speaker 1: as being in your control or out of your control. 931 00:54:33,316 --> 00:54:36,876 Speaker 1: You can frame something as letting it bother you or 932 00:54:36,956 --> 00:54:40,636 Speaker 1: not letting it bother you, and that frame can be 933 00:54:40,796 --> 00:54:45,516 Speaker 1: self fulfilling. If you decide that somebody else's disapproval doesn't 934 00:54:45,556 --> 00:54:48,756 Speaker 1: matter to you, you actually make it the case that 935 00:54:48,796 --> 00:54:52,196 Speaker 1: somebody else's disapproval doesn't matter to you, and you don't 936 00:54:52,276 --> 00:54:57,996 Speaker 1: find that thought explicitly articulated until you get to this 937 00:54:58,196 --> 00:55:03,076 Speaker 1: subsequent tradition. If these two episodes from our throwback archive 938 00:55:03,116 --> 00:55:05,236 Speaker 1: are new to you, then I hope they'll inspire you 939 00:55:05,276 --> 00:55:07,356 Speaker 1: to check out our back catalog to find more of 940 00:55:07,396 --> 00:55:09,996 Speaker 1: the wisdom hiding in there. If you'd already heard Tamar 941 00:55:10,116 --> 00:55:12,436 Speaker 1: talk about Aristotle and Plato, I hope this has been 942 00:55:12,476 --> 00:55:15,516 Speaker 1: a useful refresher about the culture of ancient Greece. You'll 943 00:55:15,556 --> 00:55:18,396 Speaker 1: need it since we'll be continuing our journey into Greek wisdom. 944 00:55:18,476 --> 00:55:20,756 Speaker 1: In the next episode. We'll be diving into one of 945 00:55:20,796 --> 00:55:23,156 Speaker 1: the most famous Greek myths out there to hear what 946 00:55:23,196 --> 00:55:25,516 Speaker 1: the fictional heroes of the ancient world can tell us 947 00:55:25,516 --> 00:55:28,916 Speaker 1: about happiness. I hope to see you back for the 948 00:55:28,956 --> 00:55:32,436 Speaker 1: next episode of The Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos. 949 00:55:39,276 --> 00:55:41,676 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is co written by Ryan Dilley and 950 00:55:41,796 --> 00:55:45,116 Speaker 1: is produced by Ryan Dilley, Courtney Grano and Britney Brown. 951 00:55:45,516 --> 00:55:48,076 Speaker 1: The show was mastered by Evan Viola and our original 952 00:55:48,156 --> 00:55:52,156 Speaker 1: music was composed by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to Greta Kone, 953 00:55:52,476 --> 00:55:57,476 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Carl Migliori, Nicole Morano, Morgan Ratner, Jacob Weisberg, 954 00:55:57,676 --> 00:56:00,676 Speaker 1: my agent, Van Davis, and the rest of the Pushkin team. 955 00:56:00,716 --> 00:56:03,236 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries 956 00:56:03,276 --> 00:56:05,036 Speaker 1: and by me, doctor Laurie Santos.