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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben.

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Speaker 1: We are joined with our guest super producer, Max the

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Speaker 1: freight trained Williams. Most importantly, you are here. That makes

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Speaker 1: this the stuff they don't want you to know. Fellow

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Speaker 1: conspiracy realist. It is one of our favorite evenings of

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Speaker 1: the week. This is our weekly listener male segment between

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Speaker 1: all the strange digging we do. We rely on you

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Speaker 1: the most important part of this show to share with

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Speaker 1: your fellow conspiracy realist, the things that struck you as important,

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Speaker 1: the things that in your own personal life are the

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. We are going

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Speaker 1: to learn about ghost weddings from an exciting email that

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Speaker 1: gives us a chance to talk about something that I

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Speaker 1: think is fascinating many of us for several years. We're

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Speaker 1: going to get some letters from home from some of

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Speaker 1: our favorite people in the world, educators. We're also going

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about the Maldives. And before

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Speaker 1: we do any of that, we are going to hang

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Speaker 1: out with a fellow conspiracy realist and fantastic writer. By

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Speaker 1: the way, GP Scooth.

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Speaker 3: Just love the name GP Scooth. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: GP wrote into us with the subject Bob Burdella and

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Speaker 4: Bob's bizarre Bizarre, which is a lovely play on words too.

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Speaker 4: What do you call that a homonym? I guess they're

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Speaker 4: not quite exactly the same in they're clothes. I've certainly

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Speaker 4: seen people play that's bizarre. Yeah, there you go.

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Speaker 3: Fun So here he goes. Gentlemen, I have not bothered

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Speaker 3: you in a while.

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Speaker 4: And this week's episode on Serial Killers brought back memories

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Speaker 4: of the spring of nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 3: I was a struggling freelance teacher, lecturer.

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Speaker 4: Writer, and overachiever in my dad trying out any number

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Speaker 4: of new business ventures. One of these which became successful,

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Speaker 4: but after I gave it up, was based in an

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Speaker 4: office space I rented in an executive suite. I'm not

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Speaker 4: going to give the exact address in Kansas City, Missouri

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Speaker 4: is always confused me. The Kansas City isn't in Kansas

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Speaker 4: but there you go. I located here because of proximity

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Speaker 4: to the professional clients I was trying to attract, even

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Speaker 4: though it was across town and the state line. These

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Speaker 4: were sally referring to the office spase proximity to the

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Speaker 4: professional clients I was trying to attract, even though it

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Speaker 4: was across town and the state line from my home

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Speaker 4: on the suburban Kansas side. When I came to the

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Speaker 4: office one Monday, shared by about a half dozen accountants,

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Speaker 4: insurance agents, and a barter exchange, I was told that

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Speaker 4: over the weekend one of the guys that hung out

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Speaker 4: there are regular in the barter exchange, had been a rested.

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Speaker 4: A teenage boy had escaped from this guy's house naked

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Speaker 4: and beaten up. When the police took Bob Burdella into custody,

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Speaker 4: it later turned out Bridella had killed and dismembered at

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Speaker 4: least six young men, threw the parts away into the

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Speaker 4: garbage or buried them in his backyard. Bardella had a

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Speaker 4: business at the Westport flea market called Bob's Bizarre Bizarre,

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Speaker 4: which he called his personal cabinet of curiosities. Westport would

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Speaker 4: be the Kansas City version of the Hipster Village, with restaurants, bars,

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Speaker 4: and little shops of all kinds. It lies between the

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Speaker 4: University of Missouri Kansas City and the Kansas University Medical Center,

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Speaker 4: a teaching hospital, plus is easily reached from downtown or

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Speaker 4: the suburbs for meetings, parties, etc. Inside the Westport flea Market,

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Speaker 4: where some of the best Hamburgers ever were sold, Bob's

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Speaker 4: Bazaar has a cult magic, satanic merchandise, and even real

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Speaker 4: human skeletal remains, although there were always many manufactured body

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Speaker 4: parts as well. The days of the head shop, this

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Speaker 4: was one where you could purchase rolling papers for your

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Speaker 4: own cigarettes, so I'm told, and even sometimes what were

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Speaker 4: advertised as marital aids or tension relieving massagers that would

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Speaker 4: fit on a finger. You get the idea a spencer's

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Speaker 4: gifts for adults with weirdness thrown in. But in the

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Speaker 4: many times I just had coffee conversations with Bob, he

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Speaker 4: was about as low key regular a person as you

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Speaker 4: could get. A bit eccentric, yes, openly gay in the

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Speaker 4: nineteen eighties, which sets him apart, but nothing to give

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Speaker 4: you the vibes that this person with whom I was

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Speaker 4: speaking just happens to have a teenage boy locked in

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Speaker 4: a room and chained to a bed at his home,

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Speaker 4: and the timeline we later worked out told us that

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Speaker 4: had to have been the case. While you guys discussed

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Speaker 4: the mementos from such people, I have always questioned, even

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Speaker 4: to Bob, where did you get the stuff for your inventory?

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Speaker 4: Who just sells human hands? Is there a big demand

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Speaker 4: for human skulls and some of his We're real?

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 4: The strangest part to me has always been that no

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Speaker 4: one suspected anything about Bob that would have led you

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Speaker 4: to believe he was killing, dismembering, and disposing of people.

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Speaker 3: The typical quiet.

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Speaker 4: Guy next door, I guess, but still odd to have

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Speaker 4: a brief period of your life where you were in

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Speaker 4: frequent contact and on a first name basis with a

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Speaker 4: serial killer.

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Speaker 3: You know me as gpscooth Yeah, Ike, thank you?

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Speaker 4: Whoow that's a tale GP, My goodness, that must have

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Speaker 4: been chilling to discover.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Uh.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I'm looking at a business card here

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Speaker 2: from all That's Interesting dot com, and it quotes his

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Speaker 2: company as Bob's Bizarre Bizarre, so like describing the bizarre

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Speaker 2: after Okay, clever.

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Speaker 1: Well, you don't have to look. You can be a

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Speaker 1: monster and still understand the importance of wordplay.

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Speaker 4: Very true, That is very true, Ben, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 4: this just sounds like the perfect fodder for murder fiction

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Speaker 4: type stuff because you know, of course, like the twist,

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Speaker 4: is that the thing that you bought from the you know,

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Speaker 4: the shrunken head or you know, withered hand actually belonged

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Speaker 4: to one of his victims. That's of course where your

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Speaker 4: mind goes. And I don't know, did you guys read

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Speaker 4: any further into this. Was there ever any indication that

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Speaker 4: he did put his trophies in his shop?

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Speaker 1: Unclear? I think because of the timeline at that point,

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Speaker 1: you would have, like in the nineteen eighties, if you

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Speaker 1: are actively operating the way this guy was, then you

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Speaker 1: would have hopefully had some lessons learned from from previous

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Speaker 1: experiences of people who got popped for doing this sort

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Speaker 1: of stuff. However, what was he called the Kansas City butcher? Right?

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Speaker 1: He clearly wasn't very clever, Most of them aren't. I

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Speaker 1: think he was just throwing people away and throwing human remains,

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Speaker 1: excuse me away in garbage bags. It reminds me, God,

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Speaker 1: it just reminds me of so many other serial killers.

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Speaker 1: To your question or GP, what you're talking about what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about here. No, what we're exploring together here

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Speaker 1: is the idea of serial killer merchandising. That's part of it, right,

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Speaker 1: that big question you pose, did this individual attempt to

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Speaker 1: profit off of the results of their mental illness? Right?

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Speaker 1: And that's I mean, that's a good question because HH

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Speaker 1: Holmes was killing people because he liked it, but he

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Speaker 1: was also killing people for insurance money, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean. You run into you run into that simultaneous.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a rationalization or if it's

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Speaker 1: a simultaneous benefit in their minds.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot to be said about this guy. And

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Speaker 1: I also appreciate JP for pointing out it's at least

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Speaker 1: six young men, because, as we know, unfortunately, very often

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Speaker 1: in the US and abroad, when the victims of creatures

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Speaker 1: like this, when they are sociologically marginalized, then their law

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Speaker 1: enforcement just doesn't doesn't seem to do their due diligence.

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Speaker 1: So for that, that's part of why people killing, you know,

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Speaker 1: folks who are considered African American folks who are considered homosexual,

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Speaker 1: that's part of why those entities have a higher likelihood

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Speaker 1: of getting away from justice for a longer amount of time.

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Speaker 4: It does appear that, you know, he was into S

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Speaker 4: and M type stuff, and they did have people participating

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Speaker 4: and some of these activities, you know, willingly. I think

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Speaker 4: there were upwards of twenty photographs discovered of folks in

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Speaker 4: various stages of this type of you know stuff, dog

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Speaker 4: collars and you know, things like that, and I think

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Speaker 4: it was almost all of the victims I believe, were

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Speaker 4: among those photographs. And the you know gp you mentioned

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Speaker 4: the person that was found naked, It was naked except

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Speaker 4: for a dog collar. And apparently this creature, as you

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Speaker 4: very appropriately put it, Ben had this.

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Speaker 3: Something called rules of the House that were rules.

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Speaker 4: That were mandatory for anyone that he was doing this

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Speaker 4: stuff with and that any you know, non adherence to

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Speaker 4: these rules would result in electric shocks being administered to

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Speaker 4: their private areas.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like it's kind of like David Parker

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Speaker 1: Ray also known as the Toy Box s Killer, the

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Speaker 1: Four Entities like this. What you do is you construct,

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Speaker 1: you construct a regiment of rules and make it such

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Speaker 1: that there is no way those rules cannot be in

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Speaker 1: some way quote unquote Brokenken and then right, because it's

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Speaker 1: not about the rules. It's about an opportunity to feel

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Speaker 1: that one controls and punishes people. It's it's very unclean thing.

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Speaker 3: No, it's it's it's it's it's really really awful. Matt.

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Speaker 4: You've gone deep with you know, the Zodiac killer and

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Speaker 4: Atlanta child murderers and all this stuff. And I was

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Speaker 4: having a conversation with my partner the other day just

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Speaker 4: about whether these types of conditions are medical in nature

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Speaker 4: or whether these types of conditions are these are just

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Speaker 4: bad people, you know. I mean, obviously you can be

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Speaker 4: diagnosed with schizophrenia, but that's a psychiatric diagnosis. Like it's

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Speaker 4: usually only post mortem that you know, aberance is the

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Speaker 4: brain can be detected. Do you have any thoughts on that, Matt,

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Speaker 4: like from any of the dives that you've done, Like

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Speaker 4: whether these are just people that are just bad or

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Speaker 4: can they be cured?

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Speaker 3: Is that even something that should be invested in? Like what?

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I mean, maybe that's too big a question, and obviously

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Speaker 4: is the question, but I'm just interested in your perspective

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Speaker 4: on that.

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Speaker 2: I'm no expert, man. The people we've talked to have

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Speaker 2: differing opinions, but a lot of the investigators on the

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Speaker 2: law enforcement side, especially from the FBI, tend to have

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Speaker 2: a pretty stark look at it, like this is a

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Speaker 2: bad person. But generally this person was made bad through experience,

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Speaker 2: life experience, right through a lot of things they've been through. Generally,

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Speaker 2: not this person was created evil from the womb kind

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Speaker 2: of concept.

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Speaker 1: Often traumatic brain injury early in childhood.

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Speaker 2: Or traumatic brain injury really anytime, which is kind of crazy,

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Speaker 2: like it can that kind of thing can adjust somebody

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Speaker 2: in not so great ways of show.

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Speaker 3: Gage, Yeah, no, for sure.

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Speaker 2: Remove filters that are there that kind of internally bind

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Speaker 2: our behavior. Give us these rules that generally aren't broken

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Speaker 2: out of fear of what it means to break one

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Speaker 2: of those rules. You get a brain injury, and that

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Speaker 2: can go away depending on where it is. I don't

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Speaker 2: I don't know, man.

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Speaker 4: No, that's a really good point, Matt, And that's that.

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Speaker 4: I think that's a very valid perspective for sure. I

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Speaker 4: was listening to a podcast that I really quite enjoy.

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Speaker 4: It's called with Gorley and Rust with Matt Gorley and

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Speaker 4: Paul Rust, and they talk about different horror movies, and

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Speaker 4: they were talking about the movie Seven, which you know,

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Speaker 4: I think in a lot of ways, movies like Silence

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Speaker 4: of the Lambs and Seven sort of led to this

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Speaker 4: whole like genius serial killer kind of you know, Craze

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Speaker 4: or whatever. And they just pointed out, I think, very

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Speaker 4: astutely that that's not a thing, like there's nobody that

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Speaker 4: would be that twisted, that would do something like what

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Speaker 4: John Doe does in seven. These very elaborate or like

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Speaker 4: you know, Jigsaw. But Seven's just obviously interesting.

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Speaker 1: That you mentioned that, because I believe it was Bridella, right,

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Speaker 1: Bridella watched The Collector, that film from the sixties. Do

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Speaker 1: you guys know what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 3: I don't know that one, now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he watched a film that came out in the

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Speaker 1: mid sixties called The Collector, which is about a guy

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Speaker 1: who stalks and kidnaps a lady and feels like he is,

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Speaker 1: you know, practicing lepidoptery, like the collection of butterflies or

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Speaker 1: something where you pin them against you know, a backdrop,

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Speaker 1: And this was sort of an inspiration. So I think,

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Speaker 1: and GP, maybe you will find this interesting. Uh, there's

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Speaker 1: a question that I have not quite solved yet about

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Speaker 1: the possible feedback loop. You know, why does the serial

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Speaker 1: murderer in the United States. Why does it hold such

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Speaker 1: a unique position in the zeitgeist, and to what degree

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Speaker 1: do films that appear to glorify one of these people?

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Speaker 1: Right to your point, nol the the largely fictitious idea

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Speaker 1: of the intelligent serial murderer a lah Hannibal in or

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Speaker 1: Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs, to what degree

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Speaker 1: is that sort of fiction perhaps informing the actions of

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Speaker 1: the mentally ill. And that's a slippery slope, because then,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it's too close intellectually speaking or

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Speaker 1: philosophically speaking to the idea that listening to quote unquote

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Speaker 1: the wrong music makes make someone violate moral taboos I

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Speaker 1: or social taboos, excuse me, socioeconomic taboos as well. It

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Speaker 1: is true, though it is objectively true that Birdella watched

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Speaker 1: this film and talked about it. He also had some

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Speaker 1: of the things that you're clocking as well.

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Speaker 2: Matt, there are other two killers. Sorry this I was

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out why the collector like pinged something

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Speaker 2: for me. It was another project that we were working

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Speaker 2: on for a time, Leonard Lake and Charles Ang. This

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Speaker 2: also committed a bunch of brutal murders that involved kidnapping people,

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Speaker 2: and they were also allegedly inspired by the Collector.

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Speaker 4: That is fascinating that feedback loop idea. But you're right,

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Speaker 4: then it can be the slippery slope when it comes

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Speaker 4: to just like blaming the art and censoring it as

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Speaker 4: a result of what I think would largely be some

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Speaker 4: pretty rare.

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Speaker 3: Outliers who actually you know, are and.

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Speaker 4: You know, whether he chose to act out because of

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Speaker 4: that in a certain way, he probably would have acted

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Speaker 4: out in some other way without said inspiration.

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Speaker 3: But back to what gorleyan Rest said, and then we'll

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Speaker 3: take a break.

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Speaker 4: They just pointed out that the reality of it is

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Speaker 4: what you were pointing to as well, Ben, is that

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Speaker 4: anyone that's mentally ill enough or you know, has some

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Speaker 4: fetishistic drive enough to do something like the Seven Murders,

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Speaker 4: there's no way they'd be able to pull it off

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Speaker 4: with the degree of accuracy that happens in that film.

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Speaker 4: So it is largely But also David Fincher, who directed Seven,

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Speaker 4: said that he almost felt guilty about introducing this glorified

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Speaker 4: version of the genius serial killer into the world, which

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Speaker 4: is largely.

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Speaker 3: Why he made Mind Hunter.

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Speaker 4: That depicts the killers as mainly perverts and degenerates, you know,

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Speaker 4: so he did kind of say that was almost his

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Speaker 4: way of feeling as though he were righting or wrong,

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Speaker 4: even though I think seven is an excellent film. But

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Speaker 4: thank you so much, GP scooth. And we're going to

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Speaker 4: take a quick break and we'll come back with some

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Speaker 4: more messages from you.

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Speaker 1: And we have returned. You've got a couple here. There's

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Speaker 1: something that we started a little while back that I

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Speaker 1: quite like, which is just letters from Home. We look

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Speaker 1: for nice stuff. We dive into many dark and troubling things.

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Speaker 1: We often find a grain of truth at the heart

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Speaker 1: of a conspiracy, but also we like to hear the

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Speaker 1: nice things. So we're gonna give you a weird story

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Speaker 1: from our pal proximate Cause. Oh let me speak this

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Speaker 1: in all caps, from our pal proximate Cause, who wants

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Speaker 1: to share an experience that I think will be instructive

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Speaker 1: for a lot of us playing along at home tonight.

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Speaker 1: And then we're gonna hear one nice letter from home

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Speaker 1: before we go to the ad break. So here we

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Speaker 1: go from Proximate Cause. PC says, I was reminded by

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Speaker 1: the most recent strange news segment in relation to China

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Speaker 1: India relations and the line of ultimate control of something

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Speaker 1: I saw while in the Maldives or Maldives more than

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Speaker 1: a year ago, says Proximate. I went to the Maldives

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Speaker 1: as a tourist. From the shore of the first island

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Speaker 1: I visited that was not the capital, I saw a

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Speaker 1: man piloting a boat or captaining who was wearing a

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Speaker 1: red shirt with big black text on it which read

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Speaker 1: India out Now. Being an avid googler, I took to

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Speaker 1: my phone to see just what this was about. And

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Speaker 1: it turns out there are some residents of the Maldives

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Speaker 1: who consider India to be somewhat of a threat to

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Speaker 1: their sovereignity to a greater or lesser degree. While there

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Speaker 1: is some official chatter about there being no actual threat,

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Speaker 1: I kind of wonder in a country where apostasy is

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Speaker 1: punishable by death, and having some experience living in China,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that for my short touristy trip it

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Speaker 1: was a good idea to get too deep into local

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Speaker 1: politics in a way that might seem impolite coming from

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Speaker 1: a foreigner. You're right about that, my friend, especially being

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Speaker 1: a foreigner from a country with a strong interventionist history.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'm just overly cautious. I'm edatorializing here. You were

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Speaker 1: not you were on the money. So PC continues and says,

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Speaker 1: I've heard and read several accounts from Filipinos regarding the

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Speaker 1: behavior of Chinese nationals and the Philippines, some of which

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Speaker 1: were more high profile than others, the general gist of

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Speaker 1: which tended to be, what do you mean it's illegal?

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Speaker 3: Here?

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Speaker 5: Is it?

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Speaker 1: This ours? And those have fueled some conspiracies related to

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Speaker 1: the elections of various officials, and so approximate Cause says,

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Speaker 1: while I recognize the Maldives may not be the same

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Speaker 1: kind of strategic location in relation to India that the

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Speaker 1: Philippines is to China, if I were a betting man,

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Speaker 1: I'd say Sri Lanka would be a more likely option.

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Speaker 1: Does this change anything? Much like Azerbaijan and Armenia now,

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Speaker 1: because there's more value in backing Azerbaijan, the larger regional

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Speaker 1: powers around them have turned a blind eye to what's

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Speaker 1: happening in our media. That's true, Would there be any

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Speaker 1: strong response from the West or other large Asian governments?

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Speaker 1: I think PC means if something sideways happened to the Maldives,

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Speaker 1: PC says, I doubt many Americans outside of the influencer

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Speaker 1: crowd could even point to this country on a map,

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Speaker 1: much less make a full bodied vocal defense of an

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Speaker 1: Islamic country, even if our relationship with India turned that sour.

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Speaker 1: There's just too much nuance required. Could this be the

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Speaker 1: beginnings of another regional proxy war? I have no idea,

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Speaker 1: but I feel as if it may be something to

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Speaker 1: watch when the region starts to pop off even more.

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Speaker 1: I could see China coming to the Maldives in the

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Speaker 1: same way the US supports the Philippines. So that's a

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Speaker 1: good question. One thing I think most Westerners know about

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Speaker 1: this nation, about the Maldives or Maldives however you would

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Speaker 1: like to pronounce it Malay, It is probably probably going

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Speaker 1: to be the first nation whose land totally disappears due

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Speaker 1: to the rise of the oceans. Do you guys hear

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Speaker 1: about this part?

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Speaker 3: I have not heard about it yet.

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Speaker 1: Know they're going to Unfortunately, due to the rising surface

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Speaker 1: level of the oceans, the Maldives may indeed become a

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Speaker 1: place that exists in a different country, like an enclave

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Speaker 1: of some sort. They're about like you if you look

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Speaker 1: at it, they're in the Indian Ocean. So see the

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Speaker 1: very bottom of India, and there to the southeast of

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Speaker 1: India there Sri Lanka.

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Speaker 3: If you go to the.

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Speaker 1: Southwest and you go further out into the ocean, then

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Speaker 1: you see this country. The highest the highest elevation above

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Speaker 1: sea level there is like a little under eight feet.

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Speaker 1: It's not looking good in short, And the question that's

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Speaker 1: being asked here, which I very much appreciate, is it's

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Speaker 1: kind of following up to what we were talking about earlier,

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Speaker 1: the idea that India and China may be practicing their

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Speaker 1: own expansionist methods, and the idea that both of these

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Speaker 1: countries may be attempting to turn this other smaller country

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Speaker 1: into what's called a vassal state.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's certainly in a good strategic place. I mean,

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Speaker 2: far enough from the South China Sea and some of

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Speaker 2: the you know, some of the stuff that's being done

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Speaker 2: out there in protecting that area right by China, because

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Speaker 2: you got the whole Bay of Bengal and the Gulf

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Speaker 2: of Thailand in between. But I don't know. We just

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Speaker 2: talked about how India is a strategic country for the West,

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Speaker 2: right now right, and having like naval bases there would

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Speaker 2: be interesting. But again it's like, what's the long term

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Speaker 2: strategy for any country with the Maldives when it comes

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Speaker 2: to oceanize, like you said, because there's not that much

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Speaker 2: time probably, and they're like, the country is aware of it.

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Speaker 2: Officials in the country are aware of it. It's a

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Speaker 2: it's a dangerous situation for them. So then what do

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Speaker 2: you you know, what do you do when some military

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Speaker 2: comes rolling through and says, hey, we want to invest

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Speaker 2: a bunch of money in your country. All you got

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Speaker 2: to do is let us turn one of these islands

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Speaker 2: into a giant base.

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Speaker 1: Just the one, just the one, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: Like the one you're not using, so like the there's

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Speaker 1: also I appreciate you pointing this out, Matt, there's also

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Speaker 1: a clear easy controlling this little piece. It gives you

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Speaker 1: a clear and easy transit point to all sorts of

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Speaker 1: stuff like Eastern Africa. You got that, you know you could,

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Speaker 1: You're way closer to the Strait of Hormuz. There's also

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Speaker 1: a very powerful argument that the nation of China needs to,

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Speaker 1: like like Russia, it needs to extend its ocean access

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Speaker 1: past what it has now, you know, things will be

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Speaker 1: very different if Russia had a little bit better maritime

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Speaker 1: access to the Atlantic Ocean. And I'm fascinated to by

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Speaker 1: this acknowledgment of Islamophobia. I guess we know that plays

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Speaker 1: a part in Western political calculus.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I don't know. Is it weird to you

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Speaker 2: guys how much that has cooled off since you know,

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Speaker 2: two thousand and one.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, well.

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Speaker 2: In talking points, right, I mean, we're going through the

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Speaker 2: presidential election here right now, and well, I mean, okay,

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Speaker 2: this is full disclosure. I'm not exactly listening to any

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Speaker 2: presidential debates because I could give up what anybody says.

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Speaker 1: On this is amazing though. Just watch the clip shows.

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Speaker 1: I keep going to bad lip Reading on YouTube just

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Speaker 1: to see if they've got a banger. I'm just waiting.

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Speaker 1: But it was really the most recent one that occurred

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Speaker 1: the primary here in the US. The primary debate was

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Speaker 1: kind of embarrassing.

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Speaker 4: Okay, I guess it just feels like the dog whistles

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Speaker 4: now are more for like other stuff like trans people

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Speaker 4: and queer people. You know, that's sort of become the

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Speaker 4: new threat at home. You know, we haven't really had

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Speaker 4: any high profile quote unquote terrorist attacks for them to

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Speaker 4: point to.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: It seems like if if there were, if that were

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Speaker 4: the case, they certainly would not shy away from using that.

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Speaker 4: But you're right, I didn't think about that. It certainly

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Speaker 4: has quote unquote cool down, at least in their rhetoric.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's a really important part. That's something that

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Speaker 1: we should all keep an eye on as we go

437
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: forward here, because what you were seeing, you, if you

438
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: don't try to go outside of your information bubble, right

439
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: and you live in the anglosphere, what you were probably

440
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: going to see is news that an algorithm has determined

441
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: you will care about. And that's a hell of a

442
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: catch twenty two. And it is not good for you

443
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: as a person or an entity. It's not good for

444
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: you as a citizen of the world right now. There's

445
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: a ton of stuff that's happening out there, and it

446
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: is in the collective best interest to know about it.

447
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: To the point about Islamophobia, it's always going to be

448
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: a part of the West, right, and that's simply because

449
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: people are sort of cheat at times. And I don't

450
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,959
Speaker 1: mean they're necessarily bad people. They just like having an

451
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: in group and an outgroup, and that's sort of a

452
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 1: that's like a cognitive hardware defect. However, we have to

453
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: realize that the vast majority of people living on the

454
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: planet right now are super super similar to you hearing this.

455
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: They want a good job, you know what I mean.

456
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: They don't want to be rushed when they have to poop.

457
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: They like feeling like they're funny, you know, They want

458
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: their kids to have a good life. They have like

459
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: they have certain concerns about their lives that might seem

460
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: little to the world entire but they're very big to them.

461
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: And if civilization together can just agree on those basic

462
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: things in a non zero sum equation, the world will

463
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: be better off. And you don't have to have all

464
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: this geopolitical pissing on fire hydrants because ultimately it benefits

465
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: very very few people. With that, let me retreat off

466
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: the soapbox. We promised you a letter from home. This

467
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: is quickly becoming one of the favorite parts of the evening.

468
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: We get a letter by someone. This is so great,

469
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: you guys. We get a letter by someone calling themselves

470
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: outnumbered by sixth graders, and this is just a nice

471
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 1: thing to us playing along at home recording here this evening.

472
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 1: Hey guys, says Outnumbered. I'm a public school teacher in Arizona.

473
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: I just got done listening to the Public Schools Factory episode.

474
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: I just wanted to say thank you for managing to

475
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: point out all of the problems with the education system

476
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: without disparaging teachers. We teachers know the system is problematic,

477
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: and we were all working hard to change it. But

478
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: many of us already know that the info in your

479
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: episode was true. Walking that line of respect for what

480
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: we do while pointing out problems is not always easy,

481
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: but you did an amazing job.

482
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 3: Thank you.

483
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: Feel free to share if you choose to do so.

484
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: And thank you, out Numbered, because as you know, Matt

485
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: Noel and yours, truly, we're all We come from teachers,

486
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: you know, we come from educators, and I would argue,

487
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: I would argue that every adult person comes from education, right, Like,

488
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: that's part of why humans are such popular primates, because we.

489
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: Teach each other things and then we write it down, right,

490
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 2: make videos about it and TikTok the heck out of it.

491
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 3: No jeez.

492
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, anyway, I wanted to end on that nice

493
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: one because we made the world sound terrifying, which it

494
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: is but shout out to the teachers and thank you

495
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: to everyone who tuned in to our public education episode.

496
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: There are some serious intergenerational issues with the system, at

497
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: least as it stands in the United States. We're going

498
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: to pause for a word from our sponsor and will

499
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: return with one more message from you, and no spoilers, folks.

500
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: It's a good.

501
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: One and we've returned. Guys. During that Maldives section, I

502
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: was just looking all around Google Earth, which is what

503
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: I do whenever we talk about a place that I

504
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: don't know a ton about and I found somewhere I

505
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: want us to go Brunette. It's called Ascension Island.

506
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's in one of my favorite books, Matt

507
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: Judah Shlansky. Oh god, every time I really mention the book,

508
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: it screws things up.

509
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 3: Whatever.

510
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,239
Speaker 1: But one of my favorite books in the world is

511
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: called The Atlas of Remote Islands. Ascension Island is an

512
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: entry in The Atlas of Remote Islands by Judah Slansky.

513
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: Check out the book if you.

514
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,959
Speaker 2: Get it's really cool looking. I want to go to

515
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: the Volcano Club and snack bar on the island.

516
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 3: I love it.

517
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: Someone's like, I don't know, you can five volcanoes anywhere.

518
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: And then someone else comes up and says, there's also

519
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: a snack bar.

520
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, but it's inside the volcano.

521
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: I don't know. It looks nuts. This place looks nuts.

522
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: It's in the middle. Gosh, so cool. It's like just

523
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: right in the middle of Africa and South America.

524
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: Okay, eight hundred people live there.

525
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,719
Speaker 2: Dude, somebody in the RAF is listening right now and

526
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: right to us. Let us know, because you got a

527
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: base O're there, all right. So we are getting a

528
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: message here from someone we're all familiar with. I'm assuming

529
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: someone that writes to us all the time, mister Lucas.

530
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: Lucas says, so here's some more body broker kind of

531
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 2: stuff for you, but a bit darker. Apparently this is

532
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 2: a thing. Women's dead bodies are sold to families burying

533
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: their unmarried son. This gets more sinister when people begin

534
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: to start murdering women than selling them. What is this thing? Well,

535
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: it is. It can be a lot of things. Posthumous marriage,

536
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: ghost marriage, you could call it. There are other words

537
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: for it in varying religions and cultural sects, but we're

538
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: talking ghost weddings. And Lucas sends us a couple of

539
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: different links and a bit of information from Wikipedia that

540
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: we're not going to read in full, Lucas, we'll talk

541
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: about it and around it. So let's just go to

542
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: some of the news links that were sent to us.

543
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: One of them comes from the BBC. Its title is

544
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: China's Ghost Weddings and Why they can be Deadly. This

545
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: was written in August twenty sixteen by Grace sooy Tsoi

546
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: and guys. It's a story about some people who were

547
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: murdering women and then selling their corpses to willing, needy

548
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: families who believed they were buying a recently deceased person

549
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: to be wed in a traditional ceremony to a loved

550
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: one who has just died. I've never heard of this before.

551
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: This is kind of blowing my mind. Ben. It sounds

552
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: off air like you've heard of this a no bit

553
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: about it. What can you tell us about the tradition

554
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: of what we're calling ghost wedding but it's really after

555
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: death marriage ceremonies.

556
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you nailed at Matt. Posthumous matrimony, Okay,

557
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: call it right. The idea and it goes across culture.

558
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that point. Part of it is. Part

559
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: of it is the idea that a spirit will be

560
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: angry or will be left bereft of what could have

561
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: been their lived existence.

562
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: If they pass away without being married.

563
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

564
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: And then also you'll see I think it's in Korea

565
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: it happens where if someone was engaged and they die,

566
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: there's still a posthumous ceremony.

567
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: Wow.

568
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: Through But before we get to you know, the really dark,

569
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: macabre side of it, it's important for us to know

570
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: that traditionally in these cultures this is seen as a

571
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: good thing, you know, like Dia delaba in Mexico. It's

572
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: not seen as some sort of like horrible, spooky dookie thing.

573
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: It's seen as another cycle in life and death. They

574
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: are legally binding and sometimes both people who get married

575
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: this way.

576
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 3: They're both dead.

577
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: Wow, which goes into like financial calculations because you can't

578
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: get away from, you know, the idea of dowry and

579
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: stuff like that.

580
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 4: That's my Wowtand didn't even think of the logistics of

581
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 4: that part of it.

582
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 3: That's interesting.

583
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: I know it has been used, this practice has been

584
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: used very functionally throughout history and a couple of different places.

585
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 2: Just read a little bit via the wiki, go down,

586
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 2: look at the links, the sightings and everything, and then

587
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:42,439
Speaker 2: started going, yeah, so there's a weird situation to talk about.

588
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 2: But in Germany, when let's say a soldier who has

589
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 2: a partner at home but they're not married yet, right,

590
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: they are sexually active, the woman in that relationship gets pregnant,

591
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: the man goes off to war and dies. Now that

592
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 2: woman is going to have a baby, but she's unwed,

593
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: and she's going to be considered an unwed mother. I'm

594
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 2: doing that in quotes, right, because there's there's cultural connotation

595
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 2: to that which.

596
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 4: Could lead to being ostracized and treated in a negative manner,

597
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 4: you know.

598
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 3: For sure.

599
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: Exactly So, there were some examples where the actual corpse

600
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: of a dead soldier was brought in and a wedding

601
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 2: ceremony was performed to wed that woman to this dead person,

602
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: just so that that child would take the father's name

603
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 2: and it would be okay to everybody else basically in

604
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 2: the society.

605
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 3: Matt, have you gotten into the why they can be

606
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 3: deadly part?

607
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: No, let's talk about it.

608
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 3: I don't know.

609
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 4: I just saw it in the headline. It's pretty pretty

610
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,439
Speaker 4: eye catching. It just says China's ghost weddings and why

611
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 4: they can be deadly.

612
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: Oh yes, okay, so so yes, just like Lucas said,

613
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: he's he's like referring or he's like, this is an

614
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: offshoot of our Bodybroker's episode, right, because if there's a

615
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: black market for something, if there's something that's sellable, someone

616
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: might want to take advantage of that and maybe is

617
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: a little less morally inclined than others. Right, So this

618
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 2: article is citing I think it was. There are a

619
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: couple things that have occurred. One that we mentioned earlier

620
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: is that there was in one case a woman found

621
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: like a dead woman found in a vehicle, and after investigation,

622
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 2: three of the males who were still living who were

623
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 2: in the vehicle, they got questioned and basically one of

624
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 2: them admitted to killing this woman in order to sell

625
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 2: her dead body to a needy family.

626
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: That which is different from related practices. There have also

627
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: been operators that would count as what we would call

628
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: it resurrection men, grave robbers.

629
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. And then twenty fifteen, according to this BBC article,

630
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 4: fourteen female corpses were stolen in a village and Shangshi

631
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 4: propit yep. And this article, ifew refers to them as

632
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 4: tomb raiders, which I always thought was really cool and

633
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 4: like adventury, but not in this context. You know, I

634
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 4: just think of Laura Croft obviously and her polygons. But

635
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 4: now tomb rating or grave robbing, I guess is maybe

636
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,479
Speaker 4: the term we would use over here. And yeah, resurrection, man,

637
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 4: that older term is still just such a captures the imagination.

638
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: Well, And again it's kind of messed up because it

639
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 2: could be pretty lucrative for those grave robbers, right they

640
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 2: I mean, at least in this BBC article, it cites

641
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 2: like quite a bit of money. I don't even know

642
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: if we can really quote it well, because I don't

643
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 2: know if they're saying it would be forty five hundred

644
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 2: US dollars to seventy five hundred US dollars for all

645
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 2: fourteen corpses, or if that means per corpse that was

646
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 2: recovered of those fourteen just I'm not sure, but it

647
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 2: does seem as the so if you could make that

648
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: much money for a lot of like messed up hard labor,

649
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 2: if you're desperate enough, maybe you would be pushed to

650
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 2: do that, right, or you would feel pushed to do that,

651
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 2: And this article does state that in two thousand and six,

652
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 2: the sale quote, the sale of corpses was outlawed, but

653
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: that was according to the he stopped crave robbers. Yeah,

654
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 2: isn't that cool. Let's see there's other stuff here. There

655
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 2: was an article from Daily Mail that was also left

656
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 2: to us by Lucas here and this is about a

657
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: quote ghost bride, a supposed corpse that was delivered to

658
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: a family to be married to their dead son. So again,

659
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: this is a situation where both parties in the marriage

660
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 2: would already be deceased, but upon receiving the woman and

661
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 2: starting the ceremony, the woman woke up and was alive.

662
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 3: What, yes, you have one of those like Romeo and

663
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 3: Juliet drugs. What are we talking here? Crazy?

664
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: I don't have the full details they are saying, only

665
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: some details have come to light. And this was written

666
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen December by Julian Luck for Daily Mail.

667
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 2: And this person was allegedly a deaf mute who was trafficked.

668
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: Okay, because I know there have been cases where women

669
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: were drugged, purposely sedated and then sold as ghost brides.

670
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that is that's that's crazy. But it's even

671
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 2: more heinous because you're killing a person as when they

672
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 2: get buried, I suppose.

673
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 3: Matt, sorry if I missed this.

674
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 4: Is there a sense in any of the religious side

675
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 4: of these that it also ensures that their loved one.

676
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 3: Will have like companionship in the afterlife.

677
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 2: To my knowledge, yes, that's one of the primary reasons

678
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 2: why this practice would occur, so that the person is

679
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: not alone basically, but again, yeah, it depends on religious belief.

680
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, are hundreds and hundreds of years, especially in what

681
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: we call rural China today, the idea is that you know,

682
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: death is scary, and you don't want to go alone,

683
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: so you'll have someone with you in the afterlife. Unfortunately, unfortunately,

684
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: this has provided an opportunity for some unclean activities. And

685
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: I think it's also important to note that a lot

686
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: of these folks, like the folks doing the traffick aid

687
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, they're getting the majority of the

688
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: campfire headlines because it's a very scary, disturbing thing, and

689
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: it's a true thing. But often these are kind of

690
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: conversations people are having and maybe both families involved have

691
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: lost a child, you know what I mean, and they're

692
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: sort of helping themselves deal with this tremendous, unspeakable tragedy.

693
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: So I do think it's important to say this practice

694
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: is like when you're hearing about the very bad criminal stuff.

695
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: This is not representative of the entirety of again, this

696
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 1: ancient cultural practice, oh of course.

697
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 2: And it has nothing to do with why the practice occurs, right,

698
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 2: The illegal stuff is because people see an opportunity to

699
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 2: make money and they don't care. I guess, ugh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

700
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 2: I don't know what else to say about this.

701
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 3: Guys.

702
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: This is a brand new thing to me.

703
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: I say, man, this is fascinating.

704
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 4: I mean truly, I'm surprised there hasn't been like this

705
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 4: hasn't appeared in pop culture, you know what I mean.

706
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:39,959
Speaker 4: This seems like just the kind of thing that could

707
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 4: be another kind of interesting twist in a story, or

708
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 4: like build building a ghost story from this.

709
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: You know, there's a great novel called, Oh gosh, I

710
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: think it might be called The Ghost Spride. It is

711
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 1: called The Ghost Pride twenty thirteen.

712
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, this hasn't been adapted into a movie.

713
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 4: I only watch movies, and I don't know for books.

714
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: That was The Corpse Bride. Maybe it's maybe.

715
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: Well, there's the Corpse Bride. Then there's The Ghost Bride.

716
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: Got The Ghost Bride I think was an Oprah book.

717
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: You know how that time Oprah got bigger than the

718
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 1: New York Times for bestsellers and.

719
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 3: She still does pretty well. Yeah, yeah, the Book Club. Yeah.

720
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: And I think there's a Netflix series that I have

721
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: not watched in full disclosure called The Ghost Bride, which

722
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: is an adaptation of that.

723
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 4: So this strikes me as something like Chan Wook Park

724
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 4: might do you know, the Old Boy director. He's just

725
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 4: something about it that's just delightfully macab and I could

726
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 4: see it being handled by it a tour in a

727
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 4: very interesting way, but also delightful in some ways when

728
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 4: it's not done where it hurts people. You know, there

729
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 4: are some people that were commenting on this in some

730
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 4: of the articles that you found, Matt, that say it

731
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 4: is an affirmation of love, you know, and things like that.

732
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 4: So I think if it's done above board and it

733
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 4: is something that gives people some sense of peace or

734
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,479
Speaker 4: some sense of wholeness, you know, for their loved ones,

735
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 4: then why not, right as long as it's not hurting anybody.

736
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: I just, by the way, Matt, last thing I just

737
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: learned the word for this god English is weird. The

738
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: word for posthumous marriage in English is necrogammy, like monogamy.

739
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 2: That's awesome, necrogamy.

740
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: You know what, Hopefully, hopefully all of us listening to

741
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: tonight are not in a situation where we need to

742
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 1: continually use that word, you know what I mean? Wishing

743
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 1: you the best, folks.

744
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 4: Can I ask a question, guys, this is a little

745
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 4: off top of it. Why is Phelia always only associated

746
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 4: with horrible things?

747
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 3: Doesn't it just mean.

748
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 4: Like love and the love of But why do we

749
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 4: only hear it when it comes to like really.

750
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 3: Bad, bad things that people do.

751
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: I think it goes back to the idea of amateiv

752
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: versus amor ris love.

753
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 4: Because you know, you can be an audiophile, but no

754
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 4: one ever call you an audiophiliac.

755
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know, again, English weird.

756
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, like a bibliophiliac sounds like you're you're sleeping.

757
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 4: With those books, You're doing stuff with those folds, with

758
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 4: those pages.

759
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: Again, I'm telling you, it's uh. I I feel like

760
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: I have at best a rudimentary understanding of the language

761
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 1: of which we're recording this podcast. There's always a new one.

762
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, just like the paper cuts.

763
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 2: You know, you have not about the paper cuts.

764
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 3: You don't do it that direct.

765
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, you gotta go with the grain. What's going

766
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 1: on with you?

767
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 3: All right?

768
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:48,760
Speaker 1: So that Matt uh, Matt and Lucas, what's the final

769
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: say on ghost marriage, posthumous marriage necro gemy uh necrogamy,

770
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: however we would say it. What's your takeaway for this?

771
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Lucas, what's your take so? Yeah, I don't know.

772
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 5: I think I put in my two cents. Matt, I

773
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 5: don't know. I think it's fascinating to me. I see

774
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 5: the functionality of it when it comes to some cultural

775
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 5: moras literally for taxes, for things like inheritance and you know,

776
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 5: a bloodline. Yeah, even if it's not an actual bloodline,

777
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 5: it's maybe a child that becomes a part of that

778
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 5: family because of this ceremony. I can see why that

779
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 5: would be desirable.

780
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 1: And there's no divorce.

781
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I.

782
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 4: Think we can probably all agree that the bad part

783
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 4: of the story is obviously the folks who are taking

784
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 4: advantage of this practice, who are not people who are believers.

785
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 4: I would argue they are the opposite there, you know,

786
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 4: absolutely taking advantage of people's faith in the same way that.

787
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 4: You know, body brokers are people that like run crematoriums

788
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 4: or they just dump the bodies in the backyard or.

789
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 3: In communal pile or whatever.

790
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 4: Things like that, where you're literally taking advantage of someone

791
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 4: who's either in mourning or who has a deeply held

792
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 4: spiritual belief. I think that is fundamentally ichy to the maximum.

793
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 3: Yep.

794
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's an article from The Guardian you can look

795
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 2: up if you wish, titled Trio Stole Corpse to sell

796
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 2: as Bride say Chinese media. It's written by the ap

797
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 2: Envising and it's from October twenty fifteen.

798
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: Ed Minghun as it's called in China. Again, as we

799
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: took pains to say, is not in any way an

800
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: inherently sinister thing, Nor are similar practices inherently sinister wherever

801
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: wherever they occur. I guess we could say, you know,

802
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: the course of true love never did run smooth and

803
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: maybe end on some Shakespeare. So with that, we we've

804
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 1: got to thank everybody who wrote in, everybody who took

805
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: time to contact us and cut past the no of

806
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: the internet. Shout out to again our guest super producer

807
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: Max Williams, who you can you can find blowing us

808
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 1: up on our messaging thread right now. He's a big

809
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: fan of bad lip reading. He's also a big fan

810
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: of You guys are fellow conspiracy realists. So we do

811
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: hope that you join us. We do hope that you

812
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 1: become a part of the show and come on air

813
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: with us one day by hook or by crook. We'd

814
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,919
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. You can find us all

815
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: over the place, right you can.

816
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 4: You can find out the handle conspiracy Stuff where we

817
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 4: exist on Facebook, YouTube and formerly known as Twitter, Conspiracy

818
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 4: Stuff show on Instagram and TikTok.

819
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 2: Hey do you like to talk to people via your phone?

820
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 2: You can talk to us. We have a voicemail system

821
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 2: call one eight three three std WYTK call in, tell

822
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 2: us something really nice, or tell us to bite your

823
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 2: scat blowhole. I don't know what that means.

824
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: Now.

825
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 3: That's from Pete and Pete's famous insult. Yeah. Right.

826
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 1: There's also the the colon and the capital P, which I.

827
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 4: Think Sorry the way I typed it, it must appear that

828
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 4: I was referring to a scabby blowhole. Scab is one

829
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 4: thing that you're asking the person who you are calling

830
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 4: a blowhole to bite yeah, yuck, Peteldren's television man children's television.

831
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 2: All right, well yeah, but you can call us in

832
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 2: just say whatever you want do. Let us know if

833
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air

834
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,879
Speaker 2: in one of our listener mail episodes. If you don't

835
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:42,720
Speaker 2: want to do that, you want to send us a links,

836
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: the whole story, pictures, whatever, why not instead send us

837
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 2: a good old fashioned email.

838
00:48:47,840 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

839
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,760
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840
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,399
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841
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