1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the show, guys, we really appreciate it. 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: To help other people find the show, go ahead and 3 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: leave us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts or 4 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts really helps other people find 5 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: the show as always special. Thank you to Supercast for 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: powering our premium membership. If you want to find out more, 7 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: go to Crystalansager dot com. All right, guys, time now 8 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: for our weekly partnership segment with The Lever joining us 9 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: for the first time. This week we have Adam Lowenstein. 10 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: He has written a great piece for The Lever. He 11 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: also writes Reframe your Inbox, which is an email newsletter 12 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: of essays and interviews about corporate power, capitalism and politics. 13 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: Definitely sounds like something I would be into. Great to 14 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: see you, Adam, Welcome to see man. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Absolutely, 15 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: So let's go ahead and put up this piece that 16 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: you wrote for the Lever, which I think is really 17 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: interesting and very relevant about Blackrock. You say here for Blackrock, 18 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: the climate crisis is a win win win, no matter 19 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: how or whether government's tackle climate change. The world's biggest 20 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: asset manager has positioned itself to cache in So just 21 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: break down here for us, you're reporting absolutely. So let's 22 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: start with the first win, which is the status quo, 23 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: and we know right now Blackrock is investing a ton 24 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: of money in oil, gas and coal and other dirty 25 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: assets and industries and technologies. By their own calculations, they're 26 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: making money off some two hundred and sixty billion dollars 27 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: worth of fossil fuel investments. That's as of last summer, 28 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: so that could have increased since then. But Blackrock is 29 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: also making a ton of money off sustainable investments. By 30 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: their own calculations, they manage more than five hundred billion 31 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: dollars worth of assets and investment products that have been 32 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: deemed or marketed as sustainable and environmentally friendly. So these 33 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: are two big cash cows for Blackrock, and that's just 34 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: the status quo. The second win, you know, if governments 35 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: do decide to take more meaningful action on climate change 36 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: because of all of the rhetoric and all of the 37 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: pr that Blackrock has done. You know, Larry Fink's annual 38 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: letters are always a hot topic in the business world, 39 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: and he makes these big, sweeping claims about how Blackrock 40 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: is going to be tackling climate change, and that because 41 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: governments have failed businesses need to step in and step up, 42 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: neglecting to mention, of course, that some of the reasons 43 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: that governments have been unable to tackle global challenges like 44 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: climate change is because of really effective business lobbying against solutions. 45 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,679 Speaker 1: But even having said that, if governments do take more 46 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: meaningful action, Blackrock has been so effective at positioning itself 47 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: as a responsible and serious and good faith actor in 48 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: the climate discussion that when the negotiating table is set up, 49 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: Blackrock is probably going to have a seed at it. 50 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: And what that means is that Blackrock might be advocating 51 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: for solutions to climate change that benefit the company and 52 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: as well as society. But Blackrock is never going to 53 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: sign off on any solution that is good for society 54 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,839 Speaker 1: but bad for the company, which right off the bat 55 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: limits the number of possible solutions to the small number 56 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: that are good for companies like Blackrock. And then the 57 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: third win is that because of all this talk in 58 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: this pea are and all this rhetoric about you know, 59 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: being a good faith actor and taking climate change seriously 60 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: and working together, Blackroc is already winning. No matter what 61 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: governments do or don't do, The company has secured a 62 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: reputation as this effective climate partner, which means that all 63 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: of the money from sustainable and ESG investments, which are growing, 64 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: you know, astronomically, a lot of that's going to keep 65 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: flowing to BLACKROC. So Adam, at the heart of this 66 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: is ESG, which you mentioned. Explain that a little bit 67 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: to the audience and why it's a scam. Sure, So, 68 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: ESG stands for Environmental, Social and governance, and it's often 69 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: you hear it in the context of ESG investing. Although ESG, 70 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, like a lot of acronymics has kind of 71 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: just come to symbolize everything about businesses taking meaningful action 72 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: to save the world. Basically, and you have seen, by 73 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: some estimates, there's thirty five trillion dollars of assets that 74 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: are labeled ESG. You know, some estimates say that this 75 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: could grow up to fifty trillion dollars in the next 76 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: few years. And basically, what ESG investing says is that 77 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: you can use your money and you can make money 78 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: and you can also save the world at the same time. 79 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: And a lot of times there's a few problems with 80 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: a number. One. There's no real standardization for what ESG means, 81 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: and there's an announcement from the SEC a few weeks 82 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: ago that they're going to start rolling out some proposed 83 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: climate disclosure rules, which actually might start to standardize what 84 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: some of these ESG labels mean. But for the most part, 85 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: what it means is that different asset managers and institutional 86 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: investors like Black Crop can offer products that they claim 87 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: are good for society, good for human rights, good for 88 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: diversity and inclusion, good for the climate, and basically imply 89 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: to investors, which could be individual investors, it could be 90 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: pension funds, it could be other companies. Basically, what they're 91 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: saying is that you put your money into these ESG 92 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: funds and you don't really need to do anything else 93 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: because your money is going to make the world a 94 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: better place. That it's a very seductive idea, it's very comforting. 95 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: It would be nice if we could just let companies 96 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: and capitalism solve you know, the world's problems for us. 97 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: But because there is this implied and sometimes very explicit 98 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: claim that ESG investments will also be better for the 99 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: bottom line than traditional investments, then once again similar to 100 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: Black Rock saying, you know, we're going to be at 101 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: the table and so we're going to rule out all 102 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: the solutions that aren't good for our business. If you 103 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: have an ESG product that maybe is good for society 104 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: but isn't making as much money as a traditional mutual fund, 105 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: which could be invested in all sorts of companies like 106 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: Exon and Chevron and you know all you know, Facebook 107 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: and all of these companies that you know, you could 108 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: make it pretty compelling argument are not good for society. 109 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: If these ESG funds don't make as much money as 110 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: the other ones, then they're just not going to gain traction. 111 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: And so on top of that, you have a lot 112 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: of ESG funds that are just labeled environmental or sustainable 113 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: or green, and they're full of stocks like Exon, in 114 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: Chevron oil and gas companies. And we've seen this a 115 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: lot over the last six weeks or so following Russia's 116 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: invasion of Ukraine. Do you have a lot of ESG 117 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: funds that hold shares in Russian companies including Russian oil 118 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: and gas? What are based on what we know black 119 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: Rocks holdings, What are some of the climate solutions that 120 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: they might find acceptable, Like, okay, we're going to make 121 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: money off of that one. And what do you think 122 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: are some of the things they would push on the 123 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: bounds of conversation. Yeah. So in the piece, I talk 124 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: about this speech that Larry Fink gave at Larry Fink, 125 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: the CEO of Black Crop, give at the G twenty 126 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: last summer in Italy, and he outlined a few of 127 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: the solutions that he wants to see. One of those 128 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: is that he wants to see more scrutiny for state 129 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: run and privately held companies. There's a lot of scrutiny 130 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: for publicly traded companies about what they're doing on the environment, 131 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: or what they're not doing, what they're doing on human rights, 132 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: or what they're not doing. And Larry Fink wants to 133 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: see more scrutiny for privately held companies and for state 134 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: run companies, which is there are a lot of public 135 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: companies that are offloading dirty assets to private companies they're 136 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: just selling them or to state run companies. And that doesn't, 137 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: as Larry Fink himself has said, that doesn't actually make 138 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: the world any greener or more sustainable. It just shifts 139 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: who holds those assets to less you know, heavily scrutinized entities. 140 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: But it's also a very convenient argument for Blackrock, because 141 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: if you have less scrutiny on public companies like Blackrock 142 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: and more scrutiny on other firms, well, that means less 143 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: scrutiny for Blackrock. It's right there in the statement. But 144 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: what it also hides is the fact that Blackrock itself, 145 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: while calling for more scrutiny for privately held and state 146 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: run companies, Blackrock is continuing to partner with and invest 147 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: in privately held in state run companies. They just announced 148 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: a big investment coalition with a bunch of investors who 149 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: invest in the fifteen billion dollar pipeline project with Saudi Aramco. 150 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: You know, obviously, you know, massive company in a state 151 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: run company out of Saudi Arabia. Blackrock I mentioned a 152 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: couple of places in the piece. Blackrock is investing in 153 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: pipelines in Texas with privately held energy and infrastructure companies. 154 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: So that's one argument that they make where there's some 155 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: truth to it, but it's also a very convenient argument 156 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: for the company. Another solution that Blackrock would like to 157 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: see is governments investing trillions and trillions of dollars in 158 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: lowering what Larry Fink calls the green premium the fact 159 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: that a lot of green industries and technologies and products 160 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: are more expensive than traditional ones, non green ones, and 161 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: again there's a kernel of truth to that. There is 162 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: definitely a role to play for governments to help spark 163 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: the initial upfront investment. There's a lot of private capital 164 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: is not necessarily going to move into these spaces without 165 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: government's bearing some of the upfront risk. But once again, 166 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: this is a very very convenient argument for Blackrock to 167 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 1: make because, as Larry Fink has said, there's a long 168 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: term investment possibility of fifty trillion dollars worth of green 169 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: investments and that's a pretty lucrative pot of money for 170 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: the world's biggest long term investor, Blackrock, to be eyeing. Right. 171 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, so we see how these all roads lead 172 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: to good for black Rock, And since they get to 173 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: have such a critical voice in shaping what even the 174 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: solutions might look like, that very much constrains the possibilities 175 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: of how governments act. I think it's a really important piece. 176 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: I really urge people to take a look at it. 177 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: And it's great to talk to talk with you this morning, Adam. 178 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: Great to meet you. Thank you, Adam, Thanks so much 179 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: for having me I appreciate it. Yeah, our pleasure. We've 180 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: been talking a lot about nuclear energy here on the 181 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: program since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, so we thought 182 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: we'd bring in an expert, Meredith Anguae. She's the author 183 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: of Shorting the Grid Grid, the Hidden Fragility of our 184 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: electric grid, and an all around very interesting person. Meredith, 185 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,839 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. 186 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: I'm very happy to be here. Thank you. Absolutely see me. 187 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: You know, I've been very intrigued on nuclear power. I've 188 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: been trying to read as much as I could, and 189 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: almost everybody I respect told me to talk to you, 190 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: and so that's what we're doing here. I thought we 191 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: would do it in the context of the New York 192 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: closure of the Indian Point Nuclear power plant. Let's put 193 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: this up there on the screen. This is from Eric Levitz. 194 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: He's actually a progressive writer. Once he talks about there 195 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: is that environmentalist groups pressured the Cuomo government to close 196 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: this nuclear power plant, Meredith. And now the city of 197 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: New York and New York State is much more reliant 198 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: on natural gas and on fossil fuels, which is also 199 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: causing price back spikes for consumers in the City of 200 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: New York. What does this tell you about the broader 201 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: environmental movement and maybe some misconceptions about nuclear power. Well, 202 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: it's something that I've been sad about for a while, 203 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: because you know, I hear an environmentalist saying this and 204 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: saying that, and then when I say, well, you know, 205 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: nuclear plants are very helpful about not putting out CEO two. 206 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: They have a very small foot and I've worked around 207 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: them for years. They're very safe. And they say no, no, no, no, 208 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: not nuclear, anything but nuclear. And I'm like, wait a minute, 209 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: anything but nuclear. Global warming, but not nuclear, and that 210 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: seems to be It has made me sad many times. 211 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: I fought very hard to keep the Vermont Yankee plant going. 212 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: I led demonstrations and letter campaigns and so forth. I'm 213 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: sure enough when the Vermont Yankee plant closed, we had 214 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: a spike in emissions because no matter what people say, 215 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: it gets substituted by fossil fuels. Of course, you have 216 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: a different situation here where you're hoping to have it 217 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: substituted by hydropower from Quebec. But if it's substituted by 218 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: something in the neighborhood, it's going to be fossil fuels. 219 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: Can you speak to some of those concerns, because I 220 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: think there are a lot of well meaning people who 221 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: want to be part of a solution to the climate crisis, 222 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: but who are very worried about you know, incidents like 223 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: Chernobyl have been sort of like seared into their brain. 224 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: And in fact, what's going on in Ukraine right now 225 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: is reminding people of some of those fears they have 226 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: about the dangers of nuclear power. Could you just speak 227 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: to those concerns. Well, Chernobyl was a power plant built 228 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: in the Soviet era. It was built for dual purposes. 229 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: It was built to make weapon grade plutonium and it 230 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: was built to make power. And it was run by 231 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: people who do not have the kind of safety culture 232 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: that plants in the West town and so Chernobyl was 233 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: a big problem. I mean, it's actually the only power plant, 234 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: nuclear plant commercial one that ever killed anybody. I mean, 235 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,439 Speaker 1: people say, oh, three Mile Island, Well, you know, there 236 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: was a release of some radiation and which quickly dissipated, 237 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: which gave people in the area like less than a 238 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: x RaSE word. Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to 239 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: say is that the Western plants are very very well designed. 240 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: Chernobyl didn't even have a containment structure around it, and 241 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: so Meredith is very Soviet, right, absolutely, Meredith. In the 242 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: context of where we're at right now, some of the 243 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: things that you have talked about and I did not 244 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: even know, was that many people in the natural gas 245 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: industry are actually have secret campaigns in order to push 246 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: wind and solar power, specifically because of their low amount 247 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: of capacity, which then makes it so that natural gas 248 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,719 Speaker 1: powered plants are then needed in order to back them 249 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: up and for reliability of the full grid. Why is 250 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: nuclear a superior solution in wanting to actually move away 251 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: from fossil fuels. Well, you see when you say, okay, 252 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: we're going to build a wind turbine here, Well, the 253 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: wind has a twenty to thirty percent capacity factor, or 254 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: maybe if it's offshore, it has a forty percent capacity factor. 255 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: That means that it can make power forty percent of 256 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: the time if it's offshore, thirty percent on shore. So 257 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: what about the rest of the time. And of course, 258 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: the wind turbine makes power when the wind blows, as 259 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: opposed to when a operator in the control room says 260 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: the grid needs power, gets some going over their wind turbine. 261 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: Nobody can turn the wind on, so that doesn't happen. 262 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: So what happens is that every wind turbine needs what's 263 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: called a fast acting resource to back it up, and 264 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: the fast acting resource, which is readily available is natural gas. 265 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: Now there's enough there are if you're in an area 266 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: with a lot of hydropower. Hydropower can be fast acting too, 267 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: but mainly you don't get to build a lot of 268 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: high power quickly, while a natural gas plant can be 269 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: built with any year or two. So guess what, you 270 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: get more natural gas on the grid. Nuclear on the 271 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: other hand, will run all one hundred percent of the time, 272 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: and so you won't need to back it up with 273 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: a natural gas plant. Obviously, any solution to the climate 274 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: crisis is going to have to be global, and with 275 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: that in mind, are there concerns about allowing peaceful development 276 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: of nuclear energy around the globe leading potentially to the 277 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: proliferation of nuclear weapons. Of course people are concerned with that. 278 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: In general, nuclear countries that want nuclear power plants really 279 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: want the power, that's what they want, And to dual 280 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: use the nuclear power plants for weapons development, it's pretty 281 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: close to impossible. I mean, it's not strictly impossible, but 282 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: it's pretty close. And so most countries that set up 283 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: a nuclear system, they buy the fuel and then when 284 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: the fuel is spent, they ship it somewhere. They're not 285 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: involved in processing the fuel, and of course that means 286 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: they aren't involved in trying to make a weapon with 287 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: the fuel. Not that they could, but what I'm saying 288 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: is that they're not. They're just running the power plant. 289 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: That's what they want. And let's look at an example, Okay, 290 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: North Korea, South Korea. South Korea has a lot of 291 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: nuclear power plants and no nuclear weapons. North Korea unfortunately, 292 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: has a lot of nuclear weapons and doesn't care much 293 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: about its people, so it doesn't have a steady grid 294 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: and it doesn't have nuclear power plants. Meredith, what about cost. 295 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: Some of the things that I've seen in terms of 296 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: the critics of nuclear power, who will at least acknowledge 297 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: it as a co two solution are saying it's outrageously 298 00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: and too expensive visa v solar and wind, and nuclear 299 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: is nuclear superior solution. Nuclear is a superior solution because 300 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: we control it, because we can you know, we build it, 301 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: we can turn it on, we can turn it off 302 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: solar panels. A nuclear plant can last forty years, maybe 303 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: sixty years, and they're getting license extendards to sixty years, 304 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: and it has to have a big inspection and a 305 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: lot of work done at forty years. But what I'm 306 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: saying is they lasts a long time. Wind turbines people 307 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: are claiming they're lasting twenty five years, but I don't know. 308 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: So if you begin looking at the wind turbine only 309 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: makes power thirty percent of the time and only the 310 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: last twenty five years, and you begin putting that into 311 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: the mix, then the nuclear doesn't look so expensive. That said, 312 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: for a long time, the West wasn't building nuclear, and 313 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: because the West wasn't building nuclear, us the knacks for it. 314 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: We lost the supply chains, the skilled workers, and so forth, 315 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 1: and so all of a sudden we're building nuclear, and 316 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: from the point of view of the planning and the building, 317 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: it's like a first of a kind. Even if we 318 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: build a whole bunch of nuclear in the eighties, it's 319 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: first of a kind when we're building it in two 320 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: thousand and because they're not the same workers and anyway, 321 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: I guess that that causes overruns for sure. I wouldn't 322 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: deny that that nuclears, the nuclears built in the two 323 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: thousands in the West were much more expensive than the 324 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: nuclears built in earlier eras when we were building a 325 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: lot of them. Got it. And what about nuclear waste, 326 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: because that's another concern that I've heard from people about 327 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: nuclear power, is that we still don't have a strategy 328 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: or a way to really deal with or dispose of 329 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: nuclear waste. I'm afraid I come at this from a 330 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: point of view of a chemist. I've worked with a 331 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: lot of dangerous stuff in my time, and so the 332 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: idea that nuclear waste is somehow extraordinarily dangerous. I mean, 333 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: I acknowledge that people are fearful. I do not mean 334 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: to downgrade that, but coming at it from a chemist, 335 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: like are you kidding, I mean, look at it. Look 336 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: at it this way. Nuclear waste, what they call nuclear waste, 337 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: is spent nuclear fuel. It is a ceramic. It is 338 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: put into a cask which shields it from the outside, 339 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: and it's to days there. If I told you that 340 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: there's something really dangerous, my process makes something really dangerous, 341 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: and you're in charge of it, and I can give 342 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: it to you as a liquid. I can give it 343 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: to you as a gas, I can give it to 344 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: you as a saw a slurry, or I can give 345 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 1: it you a ceramic. What do you want? You want 346 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: the ceramic, of course, And there's all kinds of prise. 347 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: This is making all kinds of stuff. Anyway, I guess 348 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: my feeling is it is just not a huge problem 349 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: one or other thing is compared to the amount of power. 350 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: But a nuclear plant puts out the mount of waste 351 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: is very small. Let me give you a personal kind 352 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: of example of that. Our local nuclear plant for mont 353 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: Yankee refueled every eighteen months. The fuel was delivered in 354 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: a single or sometimes two semis and that fuel would 355 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: become eventually nuclear waste one or two semis work. Meanwhile, 356 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: we had a coal plant, Merrimac station, which I also 357 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: visited with the group. I led a group to visit 358 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 1: different kinds of plants, and it made less power than 359 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 1: for mont Yankee, and it needed forty coal cars of 360 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: coal each day to make that power. And of course 361 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: the ash from that coal was about ten percent of it, 362 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: so that four coal cars of ash a day. I mean, 363 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is the amount of waste 364 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: in nuclear is so small, and I mean coal ash 365 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: has been such a problem area. I mean, you know, 366 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: they put it in ponds and keep it wet, and 367 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes they're able to recycle it. Good good good 368 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: if they can do that. But meanwhile, you understand that 369 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: it contains zinc, it contains catinum, it contains lead, it 370 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: contains uranium. I mean, it contains everything that came along 371 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: with the coal. And so I guess the thing is 372 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: that I'm not I understand that people are fearful of 373 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: it because they're not used to the idea of something 374 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: like uranium. It's just like we don't use uranium. I 375 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: use acids and bases and stuff and cooking vinegar. I mean, 376 00:21:54,640 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 1: I use pretty heavy duty cleaning solutions on occasion, But 377 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: you know how I don't use your rantings, So I 378 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: have no experience with it. That makes sense, Meredith. Look, 379 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: it's been very very helpful. I encourage people to go 380 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: and to read your book and to consume some more 381 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: of the podcast and others that you've put out there, 382 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: and we really appreciate you joining us and helping educate 383 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: us in the audience. So thanks very much, Thank you 384 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: so much, Meredith. Great to thank you, our pleasure. Thank you, Meredith. 385 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: Some interesting news by Puck News and new outlet which 386 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: has a lot of ears in the entertainment industry. They 387 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: have possibly found Rachel Maddow's replacement, Crystal and it is 388 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: Alex Wagner. So here's what they say, again, this is 389 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: a possibility, it's not one hundred percent, they say, quote 390 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: looks like Alex Wagner is now the internal front runner 391 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: to score the Rachel Maddow nine PM slot. Caveat as 392 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: far from final. Wagner used to have a noontime show 393 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: with the network, returned right around the time that Matdow 394 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: announced she's scaling back. Wagner is currently on Showtime's The Circus. 395 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: We all know that that's a personal hit show. Now, 396 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: what's interesting about this is that we both have had 397 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: personal experiences with Wagner. You know her much better than 398 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: I do, so I'm curious first for your thoughts. So 399 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 1: it's interesting because she was actually fired from MSNBC the 400 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: same time I was, but she didn't piss them off 401 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: on the way out. She got a job. Yeah, so 402 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: she I think she's a very well connected person. Has 403 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: always been my impression. Her show previously at MSNBC was 404 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: like a noontime show, and she'd have on all these 405 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: like sort of insider Washington types on the panel. They 406 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: like doing it because you would be on the panel 407 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: the whole show, so they would get their face on 408 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: team more. And so she kind of was going for 409 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: a vibe of like Morning Joe at Noon. Yes. So 410 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: she gets fired about the same time I did, because 411 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: you have a new president come in who's like, we're 412 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: just doing street news now, and so'll then that didn't 413 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: really work and they went back and leaned into like 414 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: more partisan liberal programming. Listen, I think it's going to 415 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: be very hard to fill Rachel Maddwes. She's obviously not 416 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: my ideological cup of tea, but she's one of the 417 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: few cable news hosts who has an audience that actually 418 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: shows up for her. When she was out on like 419 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: doing whatever she was doing, vacation or working on another 420 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: project or whatever, her ratings dropped off. I can't remember 421 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: if it was a fourth or a third. I think 422 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: it was like dramatic, massive decline in audience like that 423 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: the minute it wasn't Rachel there at nine PM. Alex 424 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: Wagner is well known in DC political circle. Yes, that's right. 425 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: Does she have a large established brand and audience. Not 426 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: at all. I mean she has I think, very low 427 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: name recognition and hasn't even been hosting a show at 428 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: MSBC for a long time for people to have, like 429 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: for the MSNBC audience to really know what she is. 430 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: In terms of her ideology, She's just kind of like 431 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: chilly standard issue. I can't think of a particular like 432 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,239 Speaker 1: cause or anything that you know, she's really put her 433 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: sort of impromentor on. So if this is the direction 434 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: they go in, which I would buy, because they hired 435 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: her at about the same time that Rachel Mattow decided 436 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: to scale back her presence, I think it's going to 437 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: be I think it's going to be tough. But on 438 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: the other hand, I can't see that there's anyone else 439 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: in the stable that would really be a better fit. 440 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: So I'm perusing her twitter feed. The last couple of 441 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: things that she's reported on or tweeted about are January sixth, okay, nothing, 442 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,719 Speaker 1: and then she did a story. MSNBC speaks to New 443 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: York Times photography fellow about her instantly iconic photo of 444 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: a seventeen year old Layla Jackson admiring her mother, Judge 445 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: Catangie Brown Jackson during her Supreme Court confirmation hearing. She's 446 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: doing a whole story about a photographer who took a 447 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: photo of a teenager while her mom was getting confirmed. Photo. 448 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: Was sure, okay, great story. I don't know. Here's what 449 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: I'll say with Wagner. I had a very unpleasant interaction 450 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: with her. Here's why. When I was in the White 451 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: House Press Corps, obviously it was nobody at the time 452 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: where I did not even have a seat, which means 453 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: that I had to line up in the aisle, and 454 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: because I wanted to get a question, you have to 455 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 1: get there really early, so I knew the briefing was happening, 456 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: it would take like two hours, so I would get 457 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: there two and a half hours before and I would 458 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: just sit there and it sucked. It was terrible, but 459 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: that's what you had to do if you didn't have 460 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: a seat. Well, showtimes, the circus decided that they were 461 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: going to film part of the briefing or whatever, even 462 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: though they obviously weren't going to get called on because 463 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: barely anybody knew who they were. And so she comes 464 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: and tries to stand in front of me, and I 465 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: was like, uh, hey, that's not how it works. It's 466 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: first come, first serve. And there was some version of 467 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: do you know who I am and I have this 468 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: TV show to happen, and I was like, I don't care, 469 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: that's not how it works. You can stand behind me 470 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: if you want. And then all this negotiation around where 471 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: her cameraman could stand. Also they could have a little 472 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: bit of b roll of her, like raising her raising 473 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: her hand during a question. There's a little bit of 474 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: insight into how some of these people think and how 475 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: they act whenever they're on the job for their very 476 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: important Showtime show The Circus, which I'm sure a lot 477 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: of people watch, and it's definitely not a vanity project 478 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: propped up by CBS and Showtime Network. So just a 479 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 1: bit of an insight into who this person is. I 480 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: don't think it's going to work for all variety of 481 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: business reasons, and it's not because I have anything ideological 482 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: or personal against her. It's more that for all the 483 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: reasons that you just laid out, very unlikely to succeed. Yeah, 484 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: I mean, they don't really have anyone that has a 485 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: particular brand or following that they can plug into that spot, 486 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: so I think it's going to be very tough to 487 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: fill those shoes. I'm just looking because I'm like, well, listen, 488 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: maybe I'm just not plugged into the circles where she 489 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: has a big fan base, but I'm looking at her 490 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: Twitter following an engagement. I mean, she's very low engagement 491 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: on any of the things she's putting out here. I 492 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: do see that they recently had her fill in at 493 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: the ten PM slot, Lawrence O'Donnell, which again would sort 494 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: of indicate that you know, she's they're trying her out 495 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,959 Speaker 1: and seeing does she hold an audience, how does she 496 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: conduct herself? All of that stuff, so not set in stone, 497 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 1: but very interesting little conjecture here. Well, guys, we have 498 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: some wonderful news for you if you happen to be 499 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: a corporate CEO or large shareholder in one of America's 500 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: great monopolistic enterprises. Let's go ahead and put this tear 501 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: sheet up on the screen from Axios. Profits hit a 502 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: new record high in twenty twenty one. And you know 503 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: what is so funny about this soccer is that these 504 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: companies loudly complained about how they were being squeezed by 505 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: the high prices and they really regretted it, but they're 506 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: just gonna have to pass them the costs on to consumer. 507 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: Oh really, well, the American consumer was getting screwed and squeezed. 508 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: These people were raking in more money than literally ever before. 509 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: So for the full year twenty twenty one, pre tax 510 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: profits rose twenty five percent. Meanwhile consumer prices rose seven percent. 511 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: So that shows you that the price increase the raw 512 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: materials that they were so complaining about that they were 513 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: using to justify their escalation and prices, they were raking 514 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: it in way above what inflation was necessitating. But as 515 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: if that's not enough, I got some more details for 516 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: you here. Let's put CBS up on the screen. So 517 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: non financial companies are the ones that were counted in 518 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: this metric. They say, in every quarter of twenty twenty one, 519 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: the overall profit margin removed remained above thirteen percent. That 520 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: is an altitude hit in only one other quarter during 521 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: the last seven decades, seven decades. Every single quarter they 522 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: outperformed what they had ever done in the last seven decades. 523 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: And by the way, they put some numbers on what 524 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: I was saying earlier about inflation. They say food companies 525 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: in particular blame pandemic disruptions, inflation, and strong consumer demand 526 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: for higher prices, with pork and beef up fourteen percent 527 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: and twenty percent, respectively versus a year ago. Those prices, 528 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: in turn, have often fueled a jump in earnings. Tyson's Foods, 529 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: the nation's biggest meat processor, posted more than a billion 530 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: dollars in profit in the first quarter of twenty twenty two, 531 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: up forty eight percent from the year earlier period. So 532 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: they're crying about costs and disruptions and all of this 533 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: meanwhile posted more than a billion in profit, up forty 534 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: eight percent from last year. I think what's crazy is 535 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: when they just put the sheer percentage their crystal. I 536 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: can't help but just reiterate it, which is that pre 537 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: tax profits are up twenty five percent outpacing seven percent 538 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: rise in consumer price. So that means there's eighteen percent 539 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: to be made up here up what the actual profit 540 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: is being reaped. And let's put this up there on 541 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: the screen in terms of how exactly CEOs are then compensating. Oh, 542 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: heading for a record as the pandemic receives. So all 543 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: of the hallmarks of a scam are being run on 544 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: the American people. We're being told that it's one thing, inflation, 545 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: and nobody is downplaying the effect of inflation exactly on 546 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,719 Speaker 1: how these people, how it affects in normal people's lives. 547 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: The companies that are using it as an excuse in 548 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: order to jack up the price as high as they 549 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: possibly can in order to get away with it, and 550 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: then they blame it all inflation. Then as you get 551 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: upset and we blame you know, the politicians rightfully in 552 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: some cases, and we look at that they reap record 553 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: profit and pay themselves extra high salaries. Yeah, what do 554 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: you call that? It's a scam. It's a complete scam. 555 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: It's a lie. And we've caught them. We've reported before 556 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: on how there are some of their earnings calls. They'll 557 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: actually they just say it. They're like, yeah, we raise 558 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: the price and consumers of high sensus to price increase 559 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: right now and that's contributing to record profits. Like, well, 560 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: hold us it. Would you just say what did you 561 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: do that? You just admitted that you are using the 562 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: excuse of supply chain disruptions and inflation to jack up 563 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: your prices way more than is necessary so that you 564 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: can reap record profits and be rewarded with even higher 565 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: multimillion dollar annual salaries. On the other hand, how's the 566 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: American consumer doing. I'll let's check in on that. Put 567 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: the CNBC tear sheet up on the screen. As inflation soores, 568 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: one in five workers say they can't make it from 569 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: paycheck to paycheck. Roughly twenty percent of employees regularly run 570 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: out of money completely between paychecks. That is up from 571 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: fifteen percent last year, according to a survey of more 572 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: than three thousand working adults in February. As a result, 573 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: about one quarter of those polled said it is harder 574 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: to afford necessary expenses, and one third are unable to 575 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: build savings, issues that are particularly problematic for low to 576 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: moderate income workers. If you want to know why workers 577 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: are thinking about joining unions, why they're going out on strike, 578 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: why they're leaving their jobs, why they're engaging in other 579 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: forms of protest, this says it all because they see 580 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: what's happening. I mean, they see the way that money 581 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: was just shot at the top end of the spectrum 582 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: by the billions, the way that they are reaping profits 583 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: that they have never seen before. And then they try 584 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: to come to their workers and say, oh, we can't 585 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: possibly give you a fifty cent raise or a dollar raise, 586 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: or give you a little bit more time off, or 587 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: make your scheduling more predictable. They're calm, bullshit and good 588 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: on them because it's very clear what's going on here. Yeah, look, 589 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: all we can do is just tell you with the truth, 590 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: look at the actual numbers, look at whatever they're asking for. 591 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: That's what it's all about, and you take away exactly 592 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: what you will when it comes to that. We talk 593 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: a lot here on the show about how cable news 594 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: is influential, but it may not be as influential as 595 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people think, especially whenever it comes to 596 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson. Let's put this up there on the screen. 597 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: There's a lot being made Crystal about Tucker and his coverage. 598 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say it's not important. But if 599 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: you actually look at this new Pew research polling, what 600 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: they find is that the Tucker Carlson view, especially on 601 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: Ukraine amongst the GOP base and even on the broader 602 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: US population, hasn't had a whole lot of effect. And 603 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: I think that one of the problems that people have 604 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,479 Speaker 1: is that they look at Trump's influence on the GOP base, 605 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: and then they try and analogize that to Tucker or 606 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: to anybody, really Hannity on Fox News, It's just really 607 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: not the same level of transferable power. And I've watched 608 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,959 Speaker 1: this actually happen in the GOP primary, which is another 609 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: useful test, which is that look at the candidates that 610 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: Tucker most prefers, jd Vance and Blake Masters clearly who've 611 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: been on a show, Neither are actually first place in 612 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: the polls. JAD appears to possibly be getting there, but 613 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: was trailing behind despite being on Tuck Tucker's program repeatedly. 614 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: Masters the polling is all over the map, but at 615 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: one point the guy was like in fourth place. And 616 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: I just think it's an interesting Again, Trump's endorsement means 617 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: a lot. It may not mean as much as it 618 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: once did, but people try and look at them is 619 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: exactly the same, And I just don't think that's the 620 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: case whatsoever. And this pairs with I just sent actually 621 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: you last night, yea polling about which political media figures 622 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: are most trusted by Republicans, who's most trusted by Democrats, 623 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: who's most trusted by the nation at large. First, you 624 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: will not be surprised to learn that like, none of 625 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: these figures has over fifty percent support among the broad public, 626 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: but Tucker does rank as the most trusted media figure 627 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: that they tested for Republicans. So it shows you, even 628 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: with the person who has, you know, by the polling 629 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: the most way with the Republican base, it ultimately only 630 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,439 Speaker 1: goes so far. And I also think it pushes back 631 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: against the idea that this is just like a mindless 632 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: mass of automatons who are just going to do what 633 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: their leadership tells them to do. And even though in 634 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: some ways it contradicts the study that we showed earlier 635 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: about how people who are religious Fox News viewers they 636 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: can have their opinions in fluence, in their minds changed 637 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: if they're like forced onto a CNN diet, I think 638 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: it pairs in this particular way, which is that both 639 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 1: show that people are not just locked into one view 640 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: and hardened in and it doesn't change. And that's that 641 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: they are open to evaluating other evidence when it is 642 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: presented to them. So you can see that, you know, 643 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: on the actually put the element back up on the 644 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: screen because I want to take a look at this 645 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: graph again. What they ask here is whether or not 646 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: you have confidence Vladimir Putin will do the right thing 647 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 1: regarding world affairs. And you can, in fact see when 648 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: Trump is elected and you're like at the height of 649 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 1: Russia Gate and all of this stuff, and he's very 650 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 1: friendly towards Putin, at least rhetorically, even though his policy 651 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: was actually quite hawkish. You see that they're's a high 652 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: of somewhere around thirty seven percent of Republicans who have 653 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,479 Speaker 1: confidence in Putin, and it is divergent from the rest 654 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: of the population. So now there's almost no partisan divide whatsoever. 655 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: That's support or confidence has completely fallen off a cliff, 656 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: and those who are saying they have no confidence. You know, 657 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: Democrats are at ninety four and Republicans are at ninety two, 658 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: so there's almost no difference. The only rhetorical difference is 659 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: in these sort of very narrow corridors of elite Republican 660 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: opinions and clear the bases has a mind of their 661 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: own on these issues. Yeah, it is interesting to see. 662 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: I think why it's important is that as Easeman, as 663 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: much as we talk about how much cable influences people, 664 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: from my experience, most people who love Tucker and who 665 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,399 Speaker 1: watch Fox their only uniting view is on the culture war. 666 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: Whenever it comes to foreign policy and stuff, they're much 667 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: more willing to depart and to have their own not 668 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: necessarily have their own assumptions not challenged, but to maybe 669 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: tune it out or not go as along. That's just 670 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: purely from whenever I used to appear on Fox, I 671 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: can tell you that the only thing that really gets 672 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: ratings and that really works well is called and obviously 673 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: that's you know, that's ninety nine percent of what he does. 674 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: But whenever it does come to foreign policy and more, 675 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: as you can see from that that graph, it doesn't 676 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: necessarily have the impact that a lot of people has, 677 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: and it doesn't politically translate in the way that a 678 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 1: lot of people think. So it's good, it's bad, depending 679 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: on your perspective, but I do think it challenges a 680 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: lot of the way the mainstream media talks about. Yeah, 681 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: it's just good to have information on understanding of how 682 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: people process information, because it matters a lot. A lot 683 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: of people think that The New York Times is doing 684 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: well right now, and in a sense that is true, 685 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: but in another sense they face the exact same problem 686 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: the cable news does. Even though they're the most successful 687 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: of all the traditional media companies. Let's put this up 688 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: there on the screen. Peter Kafka, who writes for Recode, 689 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: And what Peter points to is that the reason that 690 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: The New York Times is spending six hundred million dollars 691 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: trying to buy The Athletic, which is a sports news website, 692 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: is specifically because they have an old white Democrat problem. Basically, 693 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: the vast majority of their subscribers are old, they are white, 694 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: and they are liberal, and well, there is just a 695 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: certain point where you reach a ceiling of old white 696 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: rich libs across America before whenever you have to fulfill 697 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: your stock price and have growth targets, that it's going 698 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: to be difficult. And so they're in a very difficult 699 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: bind here, Crystal. What they point to is that they're 700 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: trying to expand into areas which they're not traditionally have gaming, 701 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: the cooking recipes, crossword. Actually, for the very first time 702 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: just this year, the New York Times makes more money 703 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: off of non news products than it does off of 704 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: the news. That's why they're also buying sports. Younger demographic, 705 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: more diverse, But they have the same issue. At the 706 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: end of the day, that all the cable news companies do. 707 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: And he even points to the fact that twenty years 708 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: ago or fifteen years ago, a lot of people in 709 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: the cable business was said, Ah, we'll figure it out. Yeah, 710 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 1: old people watch us, but don't worry, the young'ins will come. 711 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: We're spending all this money on millennial marketing. But how 712 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: did that work out? It didn't work out at all. 713 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,760 Speaker 1: So I think the Times very much in the same problem. 714 00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: You know, the millennials who do subscribe to The Times 715 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: probably rich white Libs, just like normal, and that's just 716 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: not really a replacement rate that you can count on 717 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: this in the current market. I mean, I think from 718 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: a business perspective, they're fine, and they're going to be 719 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: fine for a long time. But the thing that really 720 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: matters for all of us is they're subject to the 721 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: same audience capture phenomenon of any other news outlet. You know, 722 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: like they know who their audience is, and they have 723 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,239 Speaker 1: a very particular sort of like ideological bubble mindset, and 724 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 1: so you shouldn't be surprised when the bulk of their 725 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: coverage is driven to like satiating a particular ideological worldview 726 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: of that audience and that's really I mean, I think 727 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: that's the way that this manifests in terms of like 728 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: the information ecosystem that exists for all of us. Remember, 729 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: we were having a conversation a while back about the 730 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: lack of accountability from the media when they got some 731 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,359 Speaker 1: of these big stories wrong, like when they dismiss lab 732 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: Leak out of hand right at the beginning, And we 733 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 1: were saying, like, you know, we find with our audience 734 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 1: when we just fess up when we screw they actually 735 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: really appreciated it because they feel like, oh, okay, well, 736 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: of course everybody's going to get things wrong at times, 737 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: but if you're willing ad minute, then I can I 738 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: can trust you that you're going to be upfront with 739 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: me when you get things wrong. And so we were saying, like, 740 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,399 Speaker 1: how come that never happens here? How come there's in 741 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 1: this world like there's no acknowledgment that the most maximus 742 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: claims of Russiagate were completely ridiculous, or that they shouldn't 743 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,399 Speaker 1: have just dispensed with Lablik out of hand. Well, it's 744 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,799 Speaker 1: because they're in this ideological bubble where to acknowledge those 745 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: things would not be rewarded. You would be really punished 746 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 1: by this specific base by just acknowledging you know, the 747 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: reported facts that have come out at this point, or 748 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 1: you know, on a hunter's laptop or some of these 749 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 1: other stories that are uncomfortable for this worldview. So it 750 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 1: not only you know, it creates some like business risks 751 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 1: for them in terms of their aging demographic profile, but 752 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: more importantly, it creates some real problems for us in 753 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: terms of trying to sort through what's happening in our 754 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,839 Speaker 1: country and our world, especially when The New York Times 755 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 1: continues to be the paper of record so influential, have 756 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 1: the type of resources that can you know, put reporters 757 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: on the ground anywhere in the world and bringing those stories. 758 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: So we're still very reliant on them for information and 759 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: understanding what's going on around us. Yeah, I think the 760 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 1: biggest issue is that they continue to be regarded with 761 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: the reverence of the paper of record, but they're just 762 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: a blog for rich white liberals that yes, occasionally has 763 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,399 Speaker 1: great reporting and all that, but that's not what most 764 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: people they are paying for. They're paying for the Michelle 765 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 1: Goldberg op eds and you know some of the other 766 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: just absolute insanity that they have over on the opinion page. 767 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: That's the main driver, and same with the Russia Gate 768 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: coverage unfortunately. So Yeah, but because they have their resources, 769 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: I mean even we have to depend on them through 770 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 1: the issue, right where's the truth and what they're reporting 771 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: out here? That's always the problem, which is that you 772 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: have to then color it and try and wade through 773 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: and the mikes of the job incredibly difficult. And you 774 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 1: just see exactly how these all places have become so 775 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,319 Speaker 1: so captured by their audiences and what they demand and 776 00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,360 Speaker 1: what they can't do. Imagine if they were to do 777 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: some serious on Hunter Biden, they would have cancelations. I 778 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: know what would happen. And yet that's part of the 779 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 1: reason why. Then they have the best reporters, but then 780 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: they direct them exactly in terms of where their resources 781 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: will be best applied, in terms of how their audience 782 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: wants it to be, which then, as I always say, 783 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: you know, what they choose not to show you is 784 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: frankly more important than what they choose to actually show you. Yeah, 785 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: well said true. Hey guys, our friend Marsha Kossof he's 786 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: going to be conducting interviews with experts and newsmakers for 787 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 1: us here on the Breaking Points channel. We're really excited. Yep. 788 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: Here it is Hey, Breaking Points Marshall. Here Sagres Co 789 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: host of The re Alignment, also doing weekly interviews for 790 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: Breaking Points, where we go a little deeper into a 791 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 1: topic that's in the news. If there's any topics that 792 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: are of interested, you'd be sure to hit me up 793 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: on Twitter and I'll be sure to cover them in 794 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: the week's going forward. Today, we're obviously going to talk 795 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: about ewon Musk, Twitter, all those bits. That's why I'm 796 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 1: really pumped. They were joined by friend of both The 797 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,800 Speaker 1: re Alignment and Breaking Points, Alex Ketchwritz. Alex is the 798 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 1: writer of The Big Technology substack and the host of 799 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 1: the Big Tech Technology podcast. His work really is about 800 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,799 Speaker 1: looking inside tech companies and see what's actually happening, which 801 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 1: makes you perfectly suited to tell us what the hell 802 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: is going on with Twitter this week? Oh man, Well, 803 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 1: it's been one of the crazier weeks in Twitter history. 804 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,719 Speaker 1: And you know, I think for a time we thought 805 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: that we were done with most of the nuttiness with Twitter, 806 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,439 Speaker 1: but clearly we haven't gotten started. It's about to get 807 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: much crazier, and this beat is about as fun as 808 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: it could possibly be Man. I just want to say, firstly, yeah, 809 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 1: what do you mean by nuttier? It seems like so 810 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: one of about the other previous examples of how crazy 811 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: Twitter has been, and why did people think that when 812 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: Jack Dorsey leaving things were going to chill down. Then 813 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: we'll get into Elon of course, yes, of course, So 814 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 1: so yeah, this week's big news is that Elon's during 815 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,319 Speaker 1: the board. But I mean, in the past, there's been 816 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: like two really absurd eras of Twitter history. And by 817 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: the way, Twitter's lived in an absurd era since it 818 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: was started, so this is kind we kind of thought 819 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: we might be getting out. The first absurd era is 820 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: the infighting among Twitter, Twitter's founders and inside the organizational 821 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: dysfunction inside the company that has been so you know, 822 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,760 Speaker 1: difficult for Twitter to get through and actually get anything done. 823 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: You know, you talk about having Jack Dorsey in as 824 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: multiple times as CEO. You talk about the fact that 825 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,279 Speaker 1: the company had a product, had a product every every 826 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,200 Speaker 1: year for like five straight years, and never built anything 827 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 1: because they couldn't get their ducks in the line. The 828 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,240 Speaker 1: place has been as about as dysfunctional as any company 829 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 1: that exists. And then like Jack Dorsey came in as 830 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: CEO in twenty fifteen after Di Castello left, and you know, 831 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 1: he said, listen, we're gonna actually ship products now, We're 832 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,880 Speaker 1: going to like rethink the fundamentals of the product. He 833 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,960 Speaker 1: introduced an algorithm, he made tweets longer, He created a 834 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 1: you know, centralized place first moments not called Discover inside 835 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,759 Speaker 1: the app to find out what's going on, and you 836 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,839 Speaker 1: really solidify the company's identity as a news platform more 837 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,440 Speaker 1: than like a catch all, you know, platform for celebrity 838 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: stuff and sports stuff. No, he said, we're all about news, 839 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,920 Speaker 1: We're all about what's happening today. And it seemed like 840 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 1: finally Twitter was on its way to some you know, 841 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: normalcy and direction under Jack. And then Donald Trump enters 842 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen election primary, you know, for the Republicans, 843 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,720 Speaker 1: and listen, whether you like Donald Trump or you don't 844 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 1: like Donald Trump, he turned Twitter into a mad house, 845 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:41,359 Speaker 1: you know, both the platform itself and the you know, 846 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,880 Speaker 1: inside the company. The company had no idea what to 847 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: do with him. He was making these like you know, 848 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 1: extremely consequential tweets, challenging like you know, almost challenging the 849 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: Kim Jong un from North Korea, to a nuclear like 850 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: rocket match going in like little rocket Man, and there 851 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,360 Speaker 1: seemed to be and that was just like an normal, 852 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,600 Speaker 1: you know, one of the normal weeks while while Trump 853 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,399 Speaker 1: was was president. We never had a world leader use 854 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,680 Speaker 1: the platform and the way Trump did. And so no, 855 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,239 Speaker 1: there was no saying that Twitter was going to be 856 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,920 Speaker 1: a normal place while he was president. Okay, he loses 857 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 1: the election of Joe Biden January sixth, happens. Twitter decides 858 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: after the inauguration or a few days after that, to 859 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,319 Speaker 1: ban to suspend Trump permanently, which is important. I'm sure 860 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: we're going to get back to this at a certain point. 861 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 1: And you know, by and large, the platform exits the 862 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,879 Speaker 1: Trump era, and it soon exits the Jack era and 863 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: Joe Biden's you know, tweets are pretty benign to the 864 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,400 Speaker 1: point of being completely non noticeable. I cannot think of 865 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: a single Joe Biden tweet. But to your point, I 866 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 1: could think of ten Trump tweets and the audience can't 867 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: see it right now, exactly, so so you would think that, like, 868 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 1: you know, whether you like the decision that that Twitter 869 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 1: made to suspend Trump from that, we are not the 870 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: company was not a turbulent company. It became something of 871 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,880 Speaker 1: a boring company when it came to the drama surrounding it. 872 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:12,279 Speaker 1: That was until this week when Elon Musk first you know, 873 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,880 Speaker 1: bought enough shares to get him nine point two percent 874 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: of ownership inside the company and then join the board 875 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:22,760 Speaker 1: Tuesday morning. And we are now firmly in the Elon 876 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: era of Twitter history. And Elon isn't just going to 877 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,200 Speaker 1: sit there and be quiet. He's promised that there's going 878 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 1: to be significant change coming to the company, you know, 879 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,880 Speaker 1: during his era, and I wouldn't doubt that promise for 880 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: a second. Yeah, it's funny we had to give that 881 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 1: history that you just described there because it really is 882 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:46,360 Speaker 1: important that people understand that Elon is jumping into a 883 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,200 Speaker 1: very volatile news person I situation. But here's the bit 884 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 1: that I think is also interesting, and it speaks to 885 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,520 Speaker 1: the challenges the eon is going to have there. Despite 886 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,360 Speaker 1: how relevant Twitter has been traditionally, the company hasn't actually 887 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 1: performed that well relative to other companies. And for example, 888 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,920 Speaker 1: people say Facebook, Twitter, Google as if these are all 889 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: companies in the same category. But Twitter is much much 890 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 1: much lower. It's not exactly putting the big in big text. 891 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 1: So can you talk about the business side of Twitter 892 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 1: and how Elon's actually going to interact with that side, 893 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,279 Speaker 1: then we'll get into the speech stuff. Oh well, I 894 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,480 Speaker 1: think the two are totally intertwined, so I might just 895 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,480 Speaker 1: jump right in if you don't mind, yeah, please do. So. 896 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,320 Speaker 1: Twitter has always struggled to generate the type of advertising 897 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,680 Speaker 1: revenue got a company like Facebook or a company like 898 00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: Google mic And you're saying, well, why is that they 899 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,920 Speaker 1: have hundreds of millions of people on the service or 900 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,759 Speaker 1: one hundred plus million people on the service every day 901 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,600 Speaker 1: using it with like a fair addiction like someone like 902 00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 1: an Elon has. For instance, the biggest reason advertisers have 903 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:52,279 Speaker 1: stayed away from Twitter is because the platform doesn't really 904 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,400 Speaker 1: lend itself to contextual ads that make sense. So, for instance, 905 00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 1: if you have two people in the middle of a 906 00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,439 Speaker 1: flame war, that just gets worse and worse and worse. 907 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 1: You know, and I'm giving a benign example something that 908 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,960 Speaker 1: exists on Twitter. You know, you don't want to be tied, 909 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 1: or you know, Jack Daniels showing up in the middle 910 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,399 Speaker 1: of a fight where someone's calling the other person's mother 911 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,840 Speaker 1: terrible names. It's just not a good place for an 912 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:16,920 Speaker 1: advertiser to show up. They'd much rather show up on 913 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,279 Speaker 1: you know, Facebook or like a network television show where 914 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 1: they know that the content's been vetted. You know, Twitter 915 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 1: is an angry place, powered by outrage, and it has 916 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,719 Speaker 1: long been a really tough sell inside the offices in 917 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:34,040 Speaker 1: Madison Avenue where the big advertising deals get done in 918 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,960 Speaker 1: order to you know, advertise on Twitter. Now that being said, 919 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,400 Speaker 1: it's somewhat of a miracle that Twitter is still brought 920 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:45,080 Speaker 1: in five billion dollars in advertising revenue last year, and 921 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,840 Speaker 1: there's an argument to be made that that's largely because 922 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,840 Speaker 1: the company has moderated its content to the point that 923 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,320 Speaker 1: advertisers now feel that they're you know, they're adver Tide 924 00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,040 Speaker 1: isn't going to show up in the middle of like 925 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:03,799 Speaker 1: a you know, white now white nationalists support rally, and 926 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,239 Speaker 1: of course they've they've gone way overboard. But this has 927 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:10,880 Speaker 1: because been because of financial reasons that you know, and 928 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:13,279 Speaker 1: they don't want to you know, get anywhere close to 929 00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,359 Speaker 1: some of these quote unquote brand safety issues. So I'll 930 00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,000 Speaker 1: just wrap it up here and let you ask the 931 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,520 Speaker 1: next question. But you know, if Elon's going to come 932 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,600 Speaker 1: in and he's going to have significant influence over the company, 933 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,920 Speaker 1: There's no doubt about it. If he's going to come 934 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,359 Speaker 1: in and say we actually want to moderate less, it's 935 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 1: going to be interesting because it's almost going to put 936 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:36,640 Speaker 1: his ideological interests at odds with the interests of the 937 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,719 Speaker 1: company's business and some of the company's employees. And so 938 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,319 Speaker 1: let's say Elon because he has come out and said 939 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,240 Speaker 1: that he wants less, uh, you know, more free speech 940 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,239 Speaker 1: on Twitter. So it's one of the it's one of 941 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,600 Speaker 1: the weirdest cases of an investment ever where you know, 942 00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: you could end up seeing Elon you know, accomplish his goals, 943 00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:02,680 Speaker 1: harm the business and you know, potentially wrinkle the employees, 944 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,160 Speaker 1: but also be seen, you know, by many as someone 945 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,520 Speaker 1: who restore Twitter to what it used to be, where 946 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,640 Speaker 1: the company wanted to be and in the words of 947 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,600 Speaker 1: its executives, the free speech wing of the free speech Party. 948 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,319 Speaker 1: And you start putting that all on your head and 949 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,680 Speaker 1: it starts to explode because it doesn't make sense normal 950 00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,719 Speaker 1: you know, and any normal business analysis. But again we're 951 00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,200 Speaker 1: dealing with Elon Musk here, and it's not going to 952 00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,719 Speaker 1: make sense as it would in the normal business analysis. Yeah, 953 00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 1: and you're not a lawyer. It's not expecting a perfect 954 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,200 Speaker 1: answer to this, but aren't there implications when it comes 955 00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:39,920 Speaker 1: to showholder to shareholder value in those ideas? If let's say, 956 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,960 Speaker 1: if Elon's decisions don't actually lead to the company performing better, 957 00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,640 Speaker 1: are there any implications for like how for how that 958 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,319 Speaker 1: plays out legally or any bits of that, Because because 959 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:51,640 Speaker 1: I can't, I want to make this very clear for 960 00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:57,440 Speaker 1: the audience. What you are saying is old Twitter, free speech, libertary, 961 00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:00,360 Speaker 1: and Twitter was not that great of a business. It's like, 962 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 1: once again, people have to understand there's a difference between public, 963 00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:09,240 Speaker 1: square relevant Twitter and let's say, hyper profitable Twitter. There's 964 00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,759 Speaker 1: not quite the perfect round up between those two things. So, yeah, 965 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:17,880 Speaker 1: you're right. Traditionally CEOs are leaders of public companies, and 966 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,480 Speaker 1: I would even put right now, Elon is, like, you know, 967 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:22,920 Speaker 1: one of the leaders of Twitter. It's clear, you know, 968 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,400 Speaker 1: so let me just say how important Elon is the 969 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:30,920 Speaker 1: company already. Jack Dorsey tweeted that he said, I'm really 970 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,560 Speaker 1: happy Elon is joining the Twitter board. He cares deeply 971 00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,560 Speaker 1: about our world and Twitter's role in it. Parrog who's 972 00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,720 Speaker 1: the current CEO, and Elon both lead with their hearts 973 00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,320 Speaker 1: and they will be an incredible team. I have never 974 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,359 Speaker 1: ever seen anyone who joins the board being put on 975 00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:50,120 Speaker 1: equal footing with the CEO and being referenced as a 976 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 1: teammate as opposed to someone who will give guidance, as 977 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,280 Speaker 1: in the way that Jack, who's also on the board, 978 00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,080 Speaker 1: put Elon into context. So I think Elon will have 979 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:02,040 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of influence, you know, on the company's direction. Now, 980 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,280 Speaker 1: ultimately it's up to the CEO Parrague to be able 981 00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,640 Speaker 1: to maximize shareholder value, which is sort of the core 982 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,239 Speaker 1: of the question that you ask, right, And so what 983 00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:15,560 Speaker 1: happens if Elon influences their speech policies and now they're 984 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:17,759 Speaker 1: making less money? Can he get in trouble with the 985 00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,000 Speaker 1: you know, with the SEC or something like that. I 986 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,320 Speaker 1: think that it's possible, but I think it's highly unlikely. 987 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:26,760 Speaker 1: I think that Elon has shown that he can taunt 988 00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,520 Speaker 1: the SEC to his heart's delight, saying that it stands 989 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:35,440 Speaker 1: for and this isn't his words? What does he say? Blank? 990 00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,560 Speaker 1: Elon's blank, That's what I SEEC stands for and get 991 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,120 Speaker 1: away with it. And you know, he's had some penalties, 992 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,560 Speaker 1: but nothing meaningful really in the grand scheme of things, 993 00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 1: and so ultimately, I don't think there's going to be 994 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,479 Speaker 1: an issue there, like in terms of legal problems there. 995 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,600 Speaker 1: And the corollary to that is and I think Elon 996 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:58,560 Speaker 1: can make a fair argument to say that company public 997 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:02,359 Speaker 1: company values today are detached from the revenue that they 998 00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,799 Speaker 1: bring in and the earnings report that they deliver. And 999 00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:07,799 Speaker 1: all you have to do is look at a game 1000 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,680 Speaker 1: stop and look at an AMC and understand that their 1001 00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,920 Speaker 1: stock prices were totally tied to the vibes of the moment. 1002 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,359 Speaker 1: And no one brings better vibes when it comes to 1003 00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,280 Speaker 1: his support and his influence and his money than Elon 1004 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,960 Speaker 1: Musk if you're a public company. And so he could say, listen, 1005 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,440 Speaker 1: shut up about the damage that you say, I'm causing 1006 00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,680 Speaker 1: to the revenue. The stock is to the moon, and 1007 00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 1: it's completely my doing. So if you've got a problem 1008 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,480 Speaker 1: with that sec no, I think you should focus on 1009 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,040 Speaker 1: looking at bigger problems. That's a potentially legitimate argument that 1010 00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,319 Speaker 1: Elon could make. And you said to the moon, I 1011 00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,440 Speaker 1: thought of the Peter Griffin family, the eye sketch. He 1012 00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,920 Speaker 1: said it, and you said it. So I'm glad we 1013 00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,040 Speaker 1: could get that in. So okay, so what's really sum 1014 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:59,319 Speaker 1: up here? What are the actual let's say changes or 1015 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,359 Speaker 1: beefs that Ewon has with what's happening at Twitter right now, 1016 00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:07,640 Speaker 1: Because you could say he's dissatisfied with the general vibe 1017 00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:10,359 Speaker 1: of the company going into last week. That's what drive 1018 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,920 Speaker 1: this decision. But does he think that Donald Trump should 1019 00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,200 Speaker 1: be back on the platform? Does he think that the 1020 00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,239 Speaker 1: company isn't shipping products fast enough? Does he think that 1021 00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,080 Speaker 1: Twitter shouldn't be to your point, a news platform was 1022 00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,680 Speaker 1: opposed to something different, Like, what are the specific tangible 1023 00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,560 Speaker 1: things that he either has solutions to already or has 1024 00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,319 Speaker 1: indicated he specifically wants to change. Well, yeah, look, there's 1025 00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,239 Speaker 1: a couple of things that he's already kind of into 1026 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,799 Speaker 1: that minor things. Someone talked to him about cryptos spambots 1027 00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,360 Speaker 1: that appear under every tweet, and he said, that's one 1028 00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,600 Speaker 1: of the most annoying things about Twitter. So I expect 1029 00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,719 Speaker 1: the development team what those are to be for the 1030 00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,719 Speaker 1: less online listeners. Yeah, yeah, sorry, sometimes I have to 1031 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:54,479 Speaker 1: bring it back to the real world. Yeah. So, look, 1032 00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,080 Speaker 1: so when when you're on Twitter, if you look at 1033 00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,960 Speaker 1: a high profile person's tweets, if you under the replies, 1034 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,080 Speaker 1: there will generally be a bunch of bots that will 1035 00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,160 Speaker 1: try to get you to buy some shit coin and say, okay, 1036 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,920 Speaker 1: like you know you can if you give us this money, 1037 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:12,839 Speaker 1: We'll give you that amount of money and you better 1038 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,240 Speaker 1: do it now. You're getting quick. These appear like every 1039 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,040 Speaker 1: every tweet, or like if you tweet about bitcoin in general, 1040 00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:20,960 Speaker 1: there will be like nine bots who will just be 1041 00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,640 Speaker 1: like bitcoin blah blah blah, here's some you know wallet 1042 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,000 Speaker 1: that you should transfer money to. And that is extremely 1043 00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,800 Speaker 1: annoying part about Twitter. So Elon pointed that out as 1044 00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:34,200 Speaker 1: something that's annoying, and and so I imagine that the 1045 00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,920 Speaker 1: Twitter development team is already getting working on a solution 1046 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:41,040 Speaker 1: to that. Uh. He also has, like, you know, kind 1047 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,840 Speaker 1: of taken a flick at the bringing in an edit 1048 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,880 Speaker 1: button and seem to be going back and forth in 1049 00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,479 Speaker 1: the comments about how it could be done. So maybe 1050 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,680 Speaker 1: we start to see editing take place on Twitter. There's 1051 00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,920 Speaker 1: probably lots of different, you know, product ideas that he has. 1052 00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:57,960 Speaker 1: I mean, he's he might be in the top one 1053 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 1: percent of people in terms of use on the product. 1054 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,080 Speaker 1: The dude uses Twitter like a maniac, both in terms 1055 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:07,040 Speaker 1: of the money tweets and in terms of how often 1056 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,880 Speaker 1: he's he's on it, which is amazing for a guy 1057 00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,920 Speaker 1: running two companies at the moment or three. I to 1058 00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:17,000 Speaker 1: account boring company, and so, you know, I think that 1059 00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,440 Speaker 1: he probably has some product ideas and I really think 1060 00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:21,240 Speaker 1: that there's a good chance that he does get into 1061 00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:23,120 Speaker 1: these speech things. Now, whether he can do that as 1062 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,960 Speaker 1: someone you know, on the board is a question mark, 1063 00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,120 Speaker 1: but he does. He has indicated in the past that 1064 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,320 Speaker 1: he doesn't think Twitter hash is doing a good job 1065 00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,640 Speaker 1: being a form for free speech, given that it's serving 1066 00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,160 Speaker 1: as the de facto town square. So could he push 1067 00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:41,680 Speaker 1: the company to be more lenient or at least to 1068 00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,840 Speaker 1: you know, rationalize some of the speech rules. That's possible. 1069 00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,640 Speaker 1: And then you know, the Donald Trump question is so interesting. 1070 00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:52,400 Speaker 1: Here's my perspective on it, and we just talked about 1071 00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:54,560 Speaker 1: it on Big Technology podcast, the one that's actually going 1072 00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:59,960 Speaker 1: up this week. But can Donald Trump can elon must 1073 00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,680 Speaker 1: have any credibility if he's coming in talking about how 1074 00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:08,360 Speaker 1: Twitter is is pulling back speech to the ability to speak, 1075 00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:11,680 Speaker 1: Can you have any credibility if within six months Donald 1076 00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,240 Speaker 1: Trump is not back on the platform, you know he'll 1077 00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,000 Speaker 1: be he'll be looked at as either powerless or someone 1078 00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:21,160 Speaker 1: who's empty with his words. And you know, again like, 1079 00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,919 Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm not gonna stay stand here and say 1080 00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:25,760 Speaker 1: I'm a fan of what Donald Trump did on on 1081 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,560 Speaker 1: January sixth, I am not. And I do think there 1082 00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,440 Speaker 1: should have been recourse, you know, for that. And you know, 1083 00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:33,760 Speaker 1: I think that Twitter might have had, uh, you know, 1084 00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,360 Speaker 1: probably had a good, good rationale to keep him off 1085 00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,920 Speaker 1: the platform after that. Although then there are arguments, well, 1086 00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,680 Speaker 1: why why I can the Tally band be on on Twitter? 1087 00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:43,720 Speaker 1: Or what I can you know, the Russian Foreign Ministry, 1088 00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,920 Speaker 1: And I think those are legitimate arguments to discuss. But ultimately, 1089 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,160 Speaker 1: like you know, the guy was the president of the 1090 00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:54,040 Speaker 1: United States. He's banned off of Twitter. Uh. And so 1091 00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,000 Speaker 1: if you're a trailblazing guy coming in investing billions of 1092 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,960 Speaker 1: dollars and talking about how Twitter is not a forum 1093 01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:05,800 Speaker 1: for free speech and under your tandem leadership with the 1094 01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,680 Speaker 1: CEO Donald Trump remained suspended, then you know what were 1095 01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,680 Speaker 1: you actually talking about? Because it wasn't free speech, it 1096 01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:14,680 Speaker 1: was forms of speech, and we can have a discussion 1097 01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,480 Speaker 1: about that, but you can't hide behind this label of 1098 01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:22,760 Speaker 1: being a free speech crusader if Donald Trump remains suspended, 1099 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,080 Speaker 1: and that will bring him at odds with the Twitter 1100 01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:26,920 Speaker 1: employee based in a real way, and that could be 1101 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:31,120 Speaker 1: another interesting battle to watch. So to sum up, then 1102 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,080 Speaker 1: it seems as if the metric we should be looking 1103 01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:37,200 Speaker 1: at it's not particularly going to be the number of 1104 01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,480 Speaker 1: products they're shipping, because that's already improved. Right, Like who 1105 01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:43,320 Speaker 1: would have thought three years ago that Twitter spaces will 1106 01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:47,080 Speaker 1: get turned up so quickly to compete and frankly defeat Clubhouse. 1107 01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,440 Speaker 1: So like that speaks to something it would really be 1108 01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:51,960 Speaker 1: how are I going to deal? Or how Elon deals? 1109 01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,959 Speaker 1: Is very symbolic but also deeply important example. So here's 1110 01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:57,880 Speaker 1: the last question I'll wrap with. It speaks to like 1111 01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,480 Speaker 1: your bigger work at big technology. So you've spent years 1112 01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:03,840 Speaker 1: just in the industry looking at these companies. You actually 1113 01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,120 Speaker 1: even wrote a book about this. And here's the question 1114 01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:10,800 Speaker 1: the books call always day one. Obviously, how much do individuals, 1115 01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:16,440 Speaker 1: even big shareholders such as Elon Musk CEOs, ultimately matter 1116 01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,680 Speaker 1: in the face of these massive companies. So, like to 1117 01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:21,880 Speaker 1: your point earlier, we started the podcast by pointing out 1118 01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:27,000 Speaker 1: there's been a big personality re interjecting itself into Twitter 1119 01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,040 Speaker 1: consistently every few years, So we're keeping up tradition here. 1120 01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:33,720 Speaker 1: If anything, How much do you think this is tended 1121 01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,640 Speaker 1: to matter in the tech industry as a whole? Oh? 1122 01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,200 Speaker 1: I think with someone like Elon it can matter a lot. 1123 01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:41,520 Speaker 1: And let me give a little bit of evidence to 1124 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,400 Speaker 1: the point. So you mentioned right before that Twitter shipped 1125 01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:50,600 Speaker 1: spaces and seemingly which is its Clubhouse copycat, although who 1126 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:54,680 Speaker 1: knows what Clubhouse is anymore? Right, it's now become Spaces 1127 01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:58,960 Speaker 1: is what Clubhouse used to be, and they shipped it 1128 01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,920 Speaker 1: at lightning speed? Why did that happen so quickly? From 1129 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:06,840 Speaker 1: my understanding? The in twenty twenty and an activist investor 1130 01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:09,920 Speaker 1: named Elliott Management bought a four percent stake in Twitter 1131 01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:13,800 Speaker 1: and said it wanted better product development and put all 1132 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:18,200 Speaker 1: these specifications Otherwise Jack had to leave the company and 1133 01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:21,160 Speaker 1: they know and Elon bought more than double that percent 1134 01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:24,680 Speaker 1: of the company and he has promised significant changes are 1135 01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:28,160 Speaker 1: going to come to the company just on Tuesday. So 1136 01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,000 Speaker 1: given that context, I think Elon can make a big difference. 1137 01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,480 Speaker 1: Now is it going to be necessarily they'll build the 1138 01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:36,800 Speaker 1: products that Elon wants them to build. You know, there 1139 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:38,200 Speaker 1: might be some of that. Is it going to be 1140 01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:42,320 Speaker 1: that they'll enforce the speech uh, you know content moderation 1141 01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,400 Speaker 1: policies that Elon wants, you know, that's going to be tougher, 1142 01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,480 Speaker 1: but there might be some of that. Is it going 1143 01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:49,720 Speaker 1: to be that that the product teams there know that 1144 01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:52,600 Speaker 1: Elon Musk the guy who built you know, the world's 1145 01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,320 Speaker 1: you know, most popular electric are you know when it 1146 01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:59,680 Speaker 1: comes to brand ships that go to outer space right 1147 01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,960 Speaker 1: and can land on re entry. That this is the 1148 01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:06,880 Speaker 1: guy who is the largest independent shareholder in the company 1149 01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,800 Speaker 1: and he wants them shipping. You think that's going to 1150 01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,640 Speaker 1: light a fire under their butts. Absolutely it will. And 1151 01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,880 Speaker 1: so we'll see what happens now. And I'll note that 1152 01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:20,080 Speaker 1: like not a company like Twitter does serve serve an 1153 01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:23,720 Speaker 1: important function. I wouldn't mess with it too much. But 1154 01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,840 Speaker 1: we're about to see a series of changes come to 1155 01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,800 Speaker 1: the company. Maybe I'm like we've seen before and we 1156 01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:34,240 Speaker 1: already recently thought we were shipping fast. And it just 1157 01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,400 Speaker 1: makes the you know the world of following and covering 1158 01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:41,560 Speaker 1: this company, you know, so interesting as it's been from 1159 01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:43,360 Speaker 1: the outset, you know, the first week I was on 1160 01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,479 Speaker 1: the beat, there was a CEO change and it hasn't 1161 01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,200 Speaker 1: really slowed down since then, and so here we go. 1162 01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:53,280 Speaker 1: It's going to be a fascinating new era under Elon Musk. 1163 01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:55,760 Speaker 1: And you know the one thing that that I can 1164 01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:59,360 Speaker 1: promise is that it will not be boring. Well, I 1165 01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:01,439 Speaker 1: can get and to you. We will have you on 1166 01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,080 Speaker 1: at some point in the next two or three years 1167 01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:06,200 Speaker 1: to have this exact same conversation all over again. Alex 1168 01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:08,360 Speaker 1: love for you to just shout out where folks should 1169 01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:09,880 Speaker 1: take a look at your work if they're interested in 1170 01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,000 Speaker 1: learning more. Awesome, Thanks Marshall. So you can find Big 1171 01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:16,520 Speaker 1: Technology Podcast on your podcast apt choice just type in 1172 01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,400 Speaker 1: Big Technology Podcast. We have a long discussion with Chris 1173 01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:22,920 Speaker 1: Mims from the Wall Street Journal about Elon's entry into 1174 01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:25,840 Speaker 1: Twitter as an investor and the board. You won't want 1175 01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:29,040 Speaker 1: to miss it. And then my newsletter is called Big Technology. 1176 01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:34,520 Speaker 1: It's on substack and deeply aware of breaking points. Listeners 1177 01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,080 Speaker 1: will remember Chris Mims came on last week to do 1178 01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,040 Speaker 1: this version on supply chain. So the world is incredibly small. 1179 01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:43,600 Speaker 1: As always, Alex, thank you for joining us on breaking points. 1180 01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,240 Speaker 1: Hey guys, Kyle Kolinsky is letting us post some of 1181 01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,960 Speaker 1: the clips from his channel that we think you guys 1182 01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:52,680 Speaker 1: will really love in the Breaking Points community on our channel. Yep, 1183 01:04:52,800 --> 01:05:01,760 Speaker 1: let's get to it. Okay, next, So Kamala Harris gave 1184 01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:06,480 Speaker 1: a two minute non answer when asked a question directly 1185 01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:11,640 Speaker 1: about Vladimir Putin and him staying in power. Let's take 1186 01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:13,960 Speaker 1: a look and that'll react. And when the President was there, 1187 01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:18,360 Speaker 1: he gave a speech in Warsaw was well received by many, 1188 01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,520 Speaker 1: but he also said something that I think was received 1189 01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:25,120 Speaker 1: well by some but kind of surprised others. He said 1190 01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:29,040 Speaker 1: that Vladimir Putin should no longer be the leader of Russia. 1191 01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:34,480 Speaker 1: Do you agree, Listen, I think that you frame the 1192 01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:40,560 Speaker 1: point quite accurately and well, which is America's policy has 1193 01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:43,040 Speaker 1: been and will continue to be focused on the real 1194 01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:47,120 Speaker 1: issue at hand, which is one the needs of the 1195 01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:52,680 Speaker 1: Ukrainian people, which we will continue to support through humanitarian assistance, 1196 01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,920 Speaker 1: through security assistance, but also ensuring that there's going to 1197 01:05:55,920 --> 01:06:01,000 Speaker 1: be a serious consequence for Vladimir Putin and Russian aggression 1198 01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:04,720 Speaker 1: as it relates to Ukraine, which is why our policy 1199 01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:08,320 Speaker 1: from the beginning has been about ensuring that they are 1200 01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:12,560 Speaker 1: going to be real cost exacted against Russia in the 1201 01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,440 Speaker 1: form of severe sanctions, which we know are having a 1202 01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:19,200 Speaker 1: real impact and an immediate impact, not to mention the 1203 01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:23,920 Speaker 1: longer term impact, which is about saying there's going to 1204 01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,680 Speaker 1: be consequence and accountability when you commit the kinds of 1205 01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:32,400 Speaker 1: atrocities that he is committing. And I think the President 1206 01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:36,919 Speaker 1: has been an extraordinary leader to your point, Joy, I've 1207 01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:39,280 Speaker 1: been to Poland, I was in Romania. I've been to 1208 01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:41,640 Speaker 1: Europe I think probably least three times in the last 1209 01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,360 Speaker 1: four months. I was in Munich, Germany, where I gave 1210 01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,520 Speaker 1: a speech at the Munich Security Conference. I was in 1211 01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:54,600 Speaker 1: France before that, speaking with heads of state about this issue, 1212 01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:58,760 Speaker 1: among many other issues, but most recently about this issue. 1213 01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:01,479 Speaker 1: And I will tell you and sitting down with prime 1214 01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:05,240 Speaker 1: ministers and presidents often the first thing they would say 1215 01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:08,880 Speaker 1: to me is thank you to the United States and 1216 01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:13,360 Speaker 1: this administration for bringing us together, for building the coalition, 1217 01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:18,960 Speaker 1: for reinvigorating the relationship between the United States and its 1218 01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:25,360 Speaker 1: NATO allies, reinvigoring reinvigorating the relationship, and the importance of 1219 01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:28,720 Speaker 1: the relationship to the EU in terms of an issue 1220 01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:31,600 Speaker 1: like Ukraine, which is ultimately about one of the most 1221 01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:35,320 Speaker 1: important principles that we are fighting for, which is the 1222 01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:40,080 Speaker 1: importance of sovereignty and territorial integrity. Wow, so the question was, 1223 01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:43,880 Speaker 1: in case you forgot it after that long, rambling, battling answer, 1224 01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:47,400 Speaker 1: should Putin no longer be the leader of Russia? Her 1225 01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,560 Speaker 1: first response is, you know you framed that point quite well. 1226 01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,360 Speaker 1: What point she's asking a question? Should Putin no longer 1227 01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,480 Speaker 1: be the leader of Russia? You know you frame that 1228 01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:00,960 Speaker 1: point quite well. Then she goes on to talk about 1229 01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:05,800 Speaker 1: I've been to Poland and Romania and Munich and France 1230 01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:08,720 Speaker 1: and other world leaders always say to us, thank you 1231 01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:14,680 Speaker 1: us and this administration for bringing us together. So you're 1232 01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:16,200 Speaker 1: not gonna give an answer. That's what you're gonna do, 1233 01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:17,759 Speaker 1: is you're not gonna give an answer to the most 1234 01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,559 Speaker 1: direct question of all time? Should Putin no longer be 1235 01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:22,280 Speaker 1: the leader of Russia? You couldn't give a direct answer 1236 01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:26,439 Speaker 1: to that, Look she is. What's astonishing about Kamala is 1237 01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:29,880 Speaker 1: that she seems incapable of giving a direct answer on 1238 01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,920 Speaker 1: any question. She doesn't have the ability to go like 1239 01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:37,320 Speaker 1: yes or no and then explain it. And look. This 1240 01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:41,520 Speaker 1: leads to the issue of you come across as inauthentic, 1241 01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:46,600 Speaker 1: You come across as not trustworthy because a more artful politician, 1242 01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:48,680 Speaker 1: even if they're dodging the question, they would dodge it 1243 01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,640 Speaker 1: in a smoother way where you're not even sure if 1244 01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:54,360 Speaker 1: they did dodge it. Were you walking away on? Was 1245 01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:56,839 Speaker 1: that an answer with her? You're going, oh, that definitely 1246 01:08:56,880 --> 01:08:58,640 Speaker 1: was not an answer. There was not even close to 1247 01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:01,719 Speaker 1: an answer in there. So how should she have answered 1248 01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:05,120 Speaker 1: the question? It's very simple, should Putin no longer be 1249 01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:09,439 Speaker 1: the leader of Russia? The response to that is President 1250 01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,519 Speaker 1: Biden was correct in saying our goal is not regime change, 1251 01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:17,400 Speaker 1: and then you go on to explain that further. And 1252 01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:20,000 Speaker 1: by the way, the reason why you say that is 1253 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:24,000 Speaker 1: because you don't want to heighten tensions with a nuclear 1254 01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:28,120 Speaker 1: armed power. When we're in the situation that we're currently 1255 01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:30,559 Speaker 1: in where there's a hot war in Ukraine, where Russia 1256 01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:34,120 Speaker 1: invaded Ukraine and we have NATO troops just outside of Ukraine, 1257 01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:37,200 Speaker 1: and every sanction of the sun has been unleashed on Russia, 1258 01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:39,519 Speaker 1: not just hurting the government but also hurting the people 1259 01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,120 Speaker 1: of Russia. You want to make sure you don't say 1260 01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:44,840 Speaker 1: anything or do anything that raises the stakes even further. 1261 01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:48,760 Speaker 1: When we're already on like nuclear alert that's higher than 1262 01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:52,479 Speaker 1: what the normal is. It's you know, probably the US 1263 01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:56,960 Speaker 1: is too, not just Russia. You have to give that answer. 1264 01:09:57,000 --> 01:10:00,200 Speaker 1: You have no choice but to give that answer. She 1265 01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:03,760 Speaker 1: can't do it. And that's why Biden shoved his foot 1266 01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:05,519 Speaker 1: in his mouth when he said, man, this guy can 1267 01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:06,960 Speaker 1: no longer be the leader of Russia. And when he 1268 01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:08,840 Speaker 1: came out and clarified, he said, look, we're not changing 1269 01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:10,880 Speaker 1: our policy. Our policy is not regime change. But I 1270 01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:15,360 Speaker 1: was just expressing my emotional outrage. Gods, you're playing with 1271 01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:20,479 Speaker 1: fire man. It's really really bad. It's really dangerous to 1272 01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:24,160 Speaker 1: act as you're acting. And even after Biden clarified, she 1273 01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:26,720 Speaker 1: couldn't come out there and say, no, our goal is 1274 01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:29,800 Speaker 1: not regime change. You have to say that. You have 1275 01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:33,000 Speaker 1: to say that even if at your highest aspiration you're 1276 01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,840 Speaker 1: sanctioning Putin and the oligarchs with the hope that the 1277 01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:39,320 Speaker 1: oligarchs end or the military might squeeze him out, you 1278 01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:42,080 Speaker 1: still should be like, our goal is not regime change, 1279 01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:44,320 Speaker 1: because then also you give him a massive propaganda win 1280 01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:45,960 Speaker 1: and he gets to turn around to his own population 1281 01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:49,599 Speaker 1: and say, see, big bad, evil America This is always 1282 01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:52,560 Speaker 1: what it was about. This is always what it was about. 1283 01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:56,200 Speaker 1: They hate you, they hate me, they hate Russia, and 1284 01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:00,280 Speaker 1: they're the aggressor. See either talking about overthrowing me what 1285 01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:05,320 Speaker 1: they're doing. So it's just it's such a bad answer. 1286 01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:09,479 Speaker 1: It's so bad. By the way, there is no captain 1287 01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:12,320 Speaker 1: of the ship. Nobody is steering the ship. I mean, 1288 01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,479 Speaker 1: Biden has repeatedly stated no US boots on the ground. 1289 01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:20,759 Speaker 1: That's good, But I certainly think that with all the 1290 01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:22,800 Speaker 1: sanctions that have been unleashed that it's gone too far 1291 01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:25,360 Speaker 1: because now it's hurting Russian civilians. So I think he's 1292 01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:28,280 Speaker 1: gone too far even on the sanctions front. And it's 1293 01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:31,280 Speaker 1: just a it's just a scary situation when you feel 1294 01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:36,840 Speaker 1: like everybody's just sort of reacting in a very reflexive way, 1295 01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:41,760 Speaker 1: and that's how you sleep walk into World War three. 1296 01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:46,760 Speaker 1: That it is. And you don't hear. You don't hear 1297 01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:49,320 Speaker 1: direct answers, you don't hear clear answers, you don't hear leadership. 1298 01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,160 Speaker 1: You hear both Biden and Kamala Harris tripping over themselves 1299 01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:58,599 Speaker 1: and being like spineless, mushy politicians at the last moment 1300 01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:01,600 Speaker 1: that you would want them to be spinely spinally, this 1301 01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:05,040 Speaker 1: is spineless, mushy politicians. So guys, for the love of God, 1302 01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:07,080 Speaker 1: just say no. The goal is now regime change. Just 1303 01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:10,519 Speaker 1: say no. It's it should have been the most obvious 1304 01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:14,400 Speaker 1: political layup ever, but instead you get babbling about here 1305 01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:16,040 Speaker 1: are all the things we should done, and you frame 1306 01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:18,160 Speaker 1: the point quite well. And I've been to Poland, in 1307 01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:20,280 Speaker 1: Romania and Munich and France. Remind me of when Sarah 1308 01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:22,880 Speaker 1: Palin was like I could see Russia from Alaska, like, what, 1309 01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:27,559 Speaker 1: thank you for bringing bringing us together, thank you for 1310 01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,120 Speaker 1: bringing together the EU and NATO and all that stuff. 1311 01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:35,920 Speaker 1: You can give their response about here's all the actions 1312 01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:38,759 Speaker 1: we have taken, but you have to lead with our policy. 1313 01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:41,200 Speaker 1: Our goal is not regime change. She couldn't do it. 1314 01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:47,240 Speaker 1: She couldn't do it. I'm perpetually amazed at how bad 1315 01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:50,559 Speaker 1: she is at this. I mean, she's not even in 1316 01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:52,639 Speaker 1: the spotlight that often, and her approval rating is still 1317 01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:54,800 Speaker 1: hovering around like twenty eight percent, which means every time 1318 01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:57,519 Speaker 1: she opens her mouth people are rolling their eyes. And 1319 01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:00,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure that there's jockeying for position the scenes where 1320 01:13:01,240 --> 01:13:03,720 Speaker 1: her and Mayor Pete and many others are angling to 1321 01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:05,320 Speaker 1: be the next president. But if this is all you 1322 01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:07,400 Speaker 1: got for public appearances, well it's no wonder you're doing 1323 01:13:07,439 --> 01:13:08,760 Speaker 1: as bad as you are. Remember when she called herself 1324 01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:11,479 Speaker 1: a top tier candidate. Remember that she went from like 1325 01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:13,800 Speaker 1: one of the leaders of the Democratic primary to the 1326 01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:16,160 Speaker 1: second she started talking immediately tanking. It's very similar to 1327 01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:18,360 Speaker 1: Hillary in that respect. But at least Hillary got through 1328 01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:21,200 Speaker 1: the primary. Kamala Harris didn't even make it to Iowa, 1329 01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:24,840 Speaker 1: didn't even make it to the first contest, and you 1330 01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:30,760 Speaker 1: can see why with answers like this. Today, I'm going 1331 01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:34,120 Speaker 1: to tell you a story. It's a story about why 1332 01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,479 Speaker 1: the economy is screwed up, why America is screwed up, 1333 01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:42,040 Speaker 1: and in particular screwed up by businesses that are frankly 1334 01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:47,120 Speaker 1: kind of lawless. And it starts with a question who 1335 01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:51,519 Speaker 1: killed the laws that used to control big business. Now, 1336 01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:54,479 Speaker 1: I'll have some documents that have never been seen before 1337 01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:59,960 Speaker 1: publicly explaining what happened. It's something of a secret plot, 1338 01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,680 Speaker 1: a real conspiracy. But there's also a happy ending to 1339 01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:07,599 Speaker 1: this story, sort of, and one in which you can 1340 01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:11,000 Speaker 1: actually play a part. Now I'm Matt Stoler, and this 1341 01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:15,720 Speaker 1: is another big breakdown. So what is the problem exactly 1342 01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:19,040 Speaker 1: with our economy, with our society. Well, there are many 1343 01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:24,040 Speaker 1: wages don't rise with profits, people are afraid of their boss. 1344 01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:28,240 Speaker 1: Medicine costs way too much and is full of really 1345 01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:33,400 Speaker 1: annoying and harmful bureaucracy. Corporations like Boeing can't even do 1346 01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:36,519 Speaker 1: the things that they are supposed to do, like build 1347 01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:41,639 Speaker 1: airplanes that don't crash. There's even mass censorship, which often 1348 01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:45,280 Speaker 1: we don't see. So for instance, Saga and Crystal have 1349 01:14:45,320 --> 01:14:50,240 Speaker 1: pointed out that YouTube sometimes downgrades breaking points videos depending 1350 01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,120 Speaker 1: on the content. This is true for other firms like 1351 01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:57,840 Speaker 1: TikTok as well. You know, there's a thread connecting all 1352 01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:03,400 Speaker 1: or most of these problems monopoly power. A monopoly power 1353 01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:08,960 Speaker 1: is undergirded by a specific technique used by Wall Street mergers. 1354 01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:14,799 Speaker 1: Corporate mergers create monopolies. Now, over the last four years, 1355 01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:19,920 Speaker 1: waves of these corporate mergers have consolidated economic power into 1356 01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:23,720 Speaker 1: the hands of a small group of people that basically 1357 01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:26,479 Speaker 1: control all the money in the world and put you 1358 01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:29,920 Speaker 1: and me into automated phone trees whenever we need to 1359 01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:33,679 Speaker 1: get a hold of someone to help us. So let's 1360 01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:38,000 Speaker 1: talk about mergers what is a merger. A corporate merger 1361 01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:42,679 Speaker 1: is what happens when two corporations combine into one corporation. 1362 01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:46,479 Speaker 1: Here's a clip from a slick video that was made 1363 01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:50,439 Speaker 1: by one of these corporations. A merger occurs when two 1364 01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:55,160 Speaker 1: companies combine to create one organization. For example, Exon and 1365 01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:58,160 Speaker 1: Mobile merged in nineteen ninety nine to form a new 1366 01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:04,440 Speaker 1: company Exon Mobile. Ah, that's your friendly neighborhood giant multinational 1367 01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:09,599 Speaker 1: oil company recreating standard oil of the early nineteen hundreds. Now, 1368 01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:12,479 Speaker 1: there are some good reasons that corporations merge, like let's 1369 01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:14,720 Speaker 1: say you have an owner who wants to retire and 1370 01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:19,519 Speaker 1: sell his pool maintenance business or small software firm, or 1371 01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:21,439 Speaker 1: if a company is about to go bankrupt it needs 1372 01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:24,479 Speaker 1: a lifeline. It's really not a problem when this happens 1373 01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:28,439 Speaker 1: when small firms merge, but when bigger ones buy one another, 1374 01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:32,760 Speaker 1: like when Exon buys Mobile, it's very different. When big 1375 01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:36,679 Speaker 1: firms combine, the goal is often to corner a market 1376 01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:42,200 Speaker 1: and raise prices or lower wages, or often both. Big 1377 01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:45,840 Speaker 1: firms that combine when they combine, when they merge, raise 1378 01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:50,000 Speaker 1: prices on average by seven percent, and anyone who has 1379 01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:52,840 Speaker 1: tried to rent a car. Knows this since Hurtz and 1380 01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:56,960 Speaker 1: Dollar thrifty merged in twenty twelve and immediately jacked up 1381 01:16:57,000 --> 01:17:01,679 Speaker 1: what it costs to rent a car prices, higher prices. 1382 01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:05,720 Speaker 1: That's not all. Big corporations that merge usually lay people off, 1383 01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:09,200 Speaker 1: they reduce wages, they do more lobbying to corrupt politicians, 1384 01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:12,280 Speaker 1: and they pay their CEOs a lot of money. Now, 1385 01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:14,479 Speaker 1: you might remember that AT and T and Time Warner 1386 01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:16,800 Speaker 1: merger a few years ago. It was sort of a 1387 01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:20,120 Speaker 1: disaster for the two companies. There were big layoffs at 1388 01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:22,759 Speaker 1: and T Time Warner it's now splitting up. They fired 1389 01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:25,519 Speaker 1: a bunch of people and destroyed a lot of shareholder wealth. 1390 01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:28,799 Speaker 1: But the merger worked out for Time Warner CEO Jeff Bukes, 1391 01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:32,160 Speaker 1: who made four hundred million dollars with his Golden Parachute 1392 01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:35,080 Speaker 1: payoff when he sold Time Warner to AT and T. 1393 01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:39,480 Speaker 1: So that's an unsuccessful merger, And many mergers are unsuccessful 1394 01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:41,880 Speaker 1: and they're a waste of time. They cause a lot 1395 01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:47,719 Speaker 1: of problems. But mergers that succeed are almost worse. Because mergers, 1396 01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:53,240 Speaker 1: when they succeed, of big companies more importantly than screwing 1397 01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:57,640 Speaker 1: things up they create monopolies. They consolidate economic power. So 1398 01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:01,280 Speaker 1: for instance, Google, which is the company that sometimes censors 1399 01:18:01,320 --> 01:18:04,559 Speaker 1: this channel, has bought hundreds of firms since two thousand 1400 01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:09,320 Speaker 1: and two, including Yes YouTube. Facebook is another one that 1401 01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:14,200 Speaker 1: controls how we can communicate and think, bought Instagram and WhatsApp. 1402 01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:18,360 Speaker 1: Amazon control over books, but also online commerce, has made 1403 01:18:18,439 --> 01:18:21,880 Speaker 1: hundreds of acquisitions to expand its business and wipe out 1404 01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:27,240 Speaker 1: potential competitors. It's not just big tech. The music events producer, 1405 01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:30,760 Speaker 1: just to pick one at random, Live Nation bought Ticketmaster 1406 01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:33,840 Speaker 1: over ten years ago, and that's one reason ticket fees 1407 01:18:34,040 --> 01:18:36,520 Speaker 1: have been going up and up and up, and musicians 1408 01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:40,720 Speaker 1: and event producers routinely get bullied. There were twenty four 1409 01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:44,040 Speaker 1: major airlines in nineteen eighty because of mergers, and there's 1410 01:18:44,200 --> 01:18:47,440 Speaker 1: some mergers listed on this chart. Today there are basically 1411 01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:52,120 Speaker 1: four major airlines. The result is flight cancelations. There was 1412 01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:54,919 Speaker 1: a bunch of flight cancelations this weekend or last weekend 1413 01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:58,479 Speaker 1: on Southwest, but there have been hundreds of thousands over 1414 01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:02,320 Speaker 1: the course of the last few years. Ticket fees that 1415 01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:05,799 Speaker 1: we all love, poor service for those flying from big cities, 1416 01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:10,160 Speaker 1: and more importantly, the end of access to flights to 1417 01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:14,240 Speaker 1: and from most smaller and many mid size cities. A 1418 01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:17,080 Speaker 1: big chunk of the country just can't get access to 1419 01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:20,800 Speaker 1: the air grid anymore. Now, behind so many problems in 1420 01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:23,960 Speaker 1: our economy and in our society, you can find a 1421 01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:29,400 Speaker 1: merger or two or five. Take the seven three seven max. Yep. 1422 01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:33,520 Speaker 1: That is a result of Boeing merging with McDonnell Douglas. 1423 01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:39,080 Speaker 1: Drug and medical supply shortages. Yep. That's a result of 1424 01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:44,840 Speaker 1: mergers in an obscure space called group purchasing organizations. High 1425 01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:50,120 Speaker 1: ammunition prices, yep. That's because a corporate raider bought and 1426 01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:53,760 Speaker 1: ruined Remington about ten years ago. There are a lot 1427 01:19:53,760 --> 01:19:56,479 Speaker 1: of details in my newsletter on all of these case 1428 01:19:56,479 --> 01:19:58,400 Speaker 1: studies if you want to know more. I don't want 1429 01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:01,479 Speaker 1: to get too much into details on any particular one 1430 01:20:02,160 --> 01:20:04,120 Speaker 1: because that will get in the way of what I'm 1431 01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,680 Speaker 1: really trying to convey today. But you can look all 1432 01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:11,880 Speaker 1: of these up. They're really interesting and the point, the 1433 01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:15,000 Speaker 1: overall point here is that there are mergers that have 1434 01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:20,799 Speaker 1: consolidated everything from cheerleading to mail sorting software to prison 1435 01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:25,800 Speaker 1: phone services, pretty much every nook and cranny of our society. So, 1436 01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:29,519 Speaker 1: for instance, in twenty nineteen, two large Nevada gold mines 1437 01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:33,080 Speaker 1: merged and the merged entity ended up controlling seventy five 1438 01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:37,000 Speaker 1: percent of Nevada gold production. And so what did this 1439 01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:40,479 Speaker 1: new firm do Immediately? It broke the union and reduced 1440 01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:44,120 Speaker 1: compensation because workers no longer had a choice of where 1441 01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:47,879 Speaker 1: to work. Okay, So mergers between big firms are almost 1442 01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:51,200 Speaker 1: always bad, So why do we allow them? As it 1443 01:20:51,240 --> 01:20:53,600 Speaker 1: turns out, we didn't used to, And there's still a 1444 01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:56,639 Speaker 1: law against most of these big, bad mergers, and it's 1445 01:20:56,640 --> 01:21:02,080 Speaker 1: called the Clayton Act, was passed in nineteen fourteen. It is, however, 1446 01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:05,200 Speaker 1: a law that for the last forty years has largely 1447 01:21:05,280 --> 01:21:12,680 Speaker 1: gone unenforced. Why there aren't that many actual conspiracy and 1448 01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:17,439 Speaker 1: conspiracies in politics, but this is a real one. In 1449 01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:23,360 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, the incoming Reagan administration hatched a plot. They 1450 01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:25,439 Speaker 1: were trying to figure out how to get rid of 1451 01:21:25,479 --> 01:21:30,960 Speaker 1: antitrust law, how to release unfettered big business on the land. 1452 01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:37,280 Speaker 1: But they realized that repealing the law outright would be unpopular, 1453 01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:42,360 Speaker 1: So here's what they did instead. This is a memo 1454 01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:45,840 Speaker 1: that a researcher at my organization found in the Reagan 1455 01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:51,160 Speaker 1: Library it's titled Throttling Back on Antitrust, a practical Proposal 1456 01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:57,240 Speaker 1: for deregulation. Now in it, George Stiegler and Richard Posner, 1457 01:21:57,240 --> 01:22:00,880 Speaker 1: who are two or two famous antitrust thinkers, unveiled a 1458 01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:04,519 Speaker 1: plan to get rid of the Clayton Act without having 1459 01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:06,479 Speaker 1: to go to Congress. And remember, the Clayton Act is 1460 01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:09,799 Speaker 1: the law against these big bad mergers that have ruined 1461 01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:13,280 Speaker 1: a lot of the American economy. The honest way to 1462 01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:16,880 Speaker 1: repeal a law is to make your case publicly, to 1463 01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:20,120 Speaker 1: go to Congress and get them to vote to repeal 1464 01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:23,160 Speaker 1: a law. And the Reagan administration, to be fair, did 1465 01:22:23,200 --> 01:22:25,519 Speaker 1: try that with the Clayton Act in nineteen eighty six, 1466 01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:30,040 Speaker 1: but Congress refused to go along because people don't like 1467 01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:36,240 Speaker 1: big bad mergers. So instead the Reagan administration effectively repealed 1468 01:22:36,439 --> 01:22:41,360 Speaker 1: the Clayton Act secretly. And here's how. There are instructions 1469 01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:45,639 Speaker 1: to courts and enforcers how the Antitrust Division thinks merger 1470 01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:49,479 Speaker 1: law should work. These are called merger guidelines, and judges 1471 01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:52,760 Speaker 1: basically trust enforcers and have trusted in forces to tell 1472 01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:55,559 Speaker 1: them how to think about mergers. And the Clayton Act 1473 01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:59,200 Speaker 1: the law is a little bit vague, So these guidelines 1474 01:22:59,439 --> 01:23:03,639 Speaker 1: kind of ill in some of the blanks. The Reagan 1475 01:23:04,439 --> 01:23:09,480 Speaker 1: administration antitrusters took advantage of this and they quietly rewrote 1476 01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:13,599 Speaker 1: merger laws. That's what that memo is about. Now getting 1477 01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:17,280 Speaker 1: rid of the law without repealing it, but just not 1478 01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:23,240 Speaker 1: enforcing it was an intentional strategy. Reagan's key antitrust enforcer 1479 01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:28,240 Speaker 1: was a guy named Bill Baxter. That's this guy. Baxter 1480 01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:32,120 Speaker 1: followed the secret plan and simply refused to enforce laws 1481 01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:34,560 Speaker 1: he didn't like. This. This included a bunch of the 1482 01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:38,320 Speaker 1: anti trust laws. He called, for instance, Supreme Court decisions 1483 01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:43,839 Speaker 1: that mandated strong antitrust rules quote unquote rubbish and wacko 1484 01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:48,800 Speaker 1: and idiocy. That's what he called one precedent. He just 1485 01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:53,040 Speaker 1: refused to follow the law. Now, the plan that Stigler 1486 01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:57,880 Speaker 1: and Posner outlined and that Baxter carried through worked. The 1487 01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:02,559 Speaker 1: anti trust laws basically went way without being repealed. Now 1488 01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:05,160 Speaker 1: here's a chart. The formatting of this chart is very 1489 01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:07,439 Speaker 1: old timing because it's an old chart from the nineteen 1490 01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:11,120 Speaker 1: eighties and it's on just what happened with corporate acquisitions 1491 01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:15,320 Speaker 1: after the new guidelines in nineteen eighty two kicked in. 1492 01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:18,000 Speaker 1: Now on Wall Street of the nineteen eighties, and then 1493 01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:22,520 Speaker 1: every decade since, it's been all about mergers and acquisitions, 1494 01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:26,719 Speaker 1: in which deal makers make millions selling companies to one another, 1495 01:24:27,160 --> 01:24:32,080 Speaker 1: and corporate raiders who are now called private equity, make billions, 1496 01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:37,760 Speaker 1: often by buying companies, monopolizing markets, and laying off workers. Now, 1497 01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:42,040 Speaker 1: the culture on Wall Street and beyond basically became in 1498 01:24:42,080 --> 01:24:45,840 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties greed is good. In fact, one could 1499 01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:48,400 Speaker 1: argue that that was the motto of the nineteen eighties. 1500 01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:51,320 Speaker 1: It was in a famous Oliver Stone nineteen eighty seven 1501 01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:56,320 Speaker 1: movie called Wall Street. The thing is, greed is always 1502 01:24:56,320 --> 01:24:59,599 Speaker 1: with us. It's not like greed is new. What has 1503 01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:04,559 Speaker 1: changed wasn't human nature. We didn't become greedier. What changed 1504 01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:10,240 Speaker 1: was the law, and specifically the merger guidelines. Now, this 1505 01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:14,719 Speaker 1: legal change was so important that it literally rebuilt corporate America. 1506 01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:18,360 Speaker 1: Over the next forty years, nearly every major firm was 1507 01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:23,000 Speaker 1: either acquired or it became an acquirer. And Bill Clinton, 1508 01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:27,160 Speaker 1: who is arguably the worst man alive, maybe in competition 1509 01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:30,840 Speaker 1: with Henry Kissinger for that title, actually made the problem worse. 1510 01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:36,280 Speaker 1: So did George Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump and thus 1511 01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:42,400 Speaker 1: Boeing seven th seven, Max Ticketmaster airline fees, lower wages, 1512 01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:45,880 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. But here's the thing, 1513 01:25:46,280 --> 01:25:49,840 Speaker 1: and this is where there's sort of some good news. 1514 01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:55,800 Speaker 1: The era of greed is good is ending both parties increasingly, 1515 01:25:56,160 --> 01:26:00,160 Speaker 1: and the American people writ large have had it. The 1516 01:26:00,160 --> 01:26:02,519 Speaker 1: good news. So let me introduce you to a new 1517 01:26:02,640 --> 01:26:06,559 Speaker 1: law enforcer named Lena khn. Con is the chair of 1518 01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:09,280 Speaker 1: the Federal Trade Commission, which is the agency that is 1519 01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:13,759 Speaker 1: supposed to police fairness in our markets, including some parts 1520 01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:17,280 Speaker 1: of the Clayton Act. She's the youngest chair in history, 1521 01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:20,880 Speaker 1: and she is something of an ass kicker. Both Google 1522 01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:25,639 Speaker 1: and Amazon lobbied heavily against her nomination. They lost. She's 1523 01:26:25,680 --> 01:26:28,680 Speaker 1: a regular topic of conversation on CNBC, which is the 1524 01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:32,360 Speaker 1: news channel of capital, because con wants to revive how 1525 01:26:32,400 --> 01:26:35,240 Speaker 1: we do anti trust, how the government, how our democracy 1526 01:26:35,280 --> 01:26:38,400 Speaker 1: relates to big business. So let's take a listen about 1527 01:26:38,439 --> 01:26:42,360 Speaker 1: how she thinks about big business and the law. Historically 1528 01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:45,519 Speaker 1: been various moments in which there's been a recognition across 1529 01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:49,840 Speaker 1: jurisdictions that if you allow unfettered monopoly power to concentrate 1530 01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:53,440 Speaker 1: its power, can rival that of the state right. And historically, 1531 01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:56,920 Speaker 1: the antitrust laws have a rich tradition, in rich history, 1532 01:26:57,240 --> 01:26:59,599 Speaker 1: and a key goal was to ensure that our commercial 1533 01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:02,280 Speaker 1: sphere was characterized by the same types of checks and 1534 01:27:02,320 --> 01:27:06,040 Speaker 1: balances and protections against concentration of economic power that we 1535 01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:08,640 Speaker 1: had set up in our political and governance. Hehere, and 1536 01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:11,080 Speaker 1: so the desire to kind of check those types of 1537 01:27:11,080 --> 01:27:14,519 Speaker 1: concentrations of power, I think is deep in the American tradition. 1538 01:27:15,280 --> 01:27:18,840 Speaker 1: So that's Lena Kahn talking about how she think that's 1539 01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:22,839 Speaker 1: her philosophy, and it's an old philosophy but not agreed 1540 01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:28,040 Speaker 1: as good philosophy. Now, powerful firms like Google and Amazon 1541 01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:31,360 Speaker 1: also lobbied to prevent the other main anti trust enforcer 1542 01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:34,639 Speaker 1: in the Biden administration from being nominated. And his name 1543 01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:39,519 Speaker 1: is Jonathan Canter. Less famous than con He runs the 1544 01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:44,080 Speaker 1: Department of Justice Anti Trust Division, but don't be fooled. 1545 01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:48,320 Speaker 1: Canter is a longtime antitrust lawyer, but he is also 1546 01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:51,559 Speaker 1: bringing an aggressive new philosophy into the division. He has 1547 01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:56,760 Speaker 1: actually called for bringing back handcuffs aka criminal charges for 1548 01:27:56,920 --> 01:28:01,040 Speaker 1: executives who illegally monopolize, and that raised a lot of eyebrows. 1549 01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:04,559 Speaker 1: Now Lena Kahn and Jonathan Canter are Democrats. They were 1550 01:28:04,720 --> 01:28:07,840 Speaker 1: picked by the Biden administration. But the right is also 1551 01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:11,679 Speaker 1: very angry about corporate power as well. Here's Laura Ingram 1552 01:28:11,840 --> 01:28:15,200 Speaker 1: last week on Fox News talking about the social power 1553 01:28:15,360 --> 01:28:19,439 Speaker 1: and economic power of Disney and Apple. The Antitrust Division 1554 01:28:19,439 --> 01:28:23,120 Speaker 1: at Justice needs to begin the process of considering which 1555 01:28:23,160 --> 01:28:26,479 Speaker 1: American companies need to be broken up once and for all, 1556 01:28:26,640 --> 01:28:29,760 Speaker 1: for competition's sake and ultimately for the good of the 1557 01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:33,240 Speaker 1: consumers who pay the bills. So you've got Con and 1558 01:28:33,280 --> 01:28:36,880 Speaker 1: you've got Canter, and they're Democrats, but they actually had 1559 01:28:38,080 --> 01:28:40,400 Speaker 1: around sixty seven to sixty eight votes in the Senate, 1560 01:28:40,439 --> 01:28:42,439 Speaker 1: so a lot of Republicans voted for them, And then 1561 01:28:42,479 --> 01:28:47,080 Speaker 1: you have regular anti monopoly arguments on Fox News. Now, 1562 01:28:47,280 --> 01:28:51,600 Speaker 1: of course, there are deep divides about social questions underpinning 1563 01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:55,480 Speaker 1: anti monopolism on both sides, but both sides are increasingly 1564 01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:59,360 Speaker 1: realizing that dominant firms shouldn't be making key decisions over 1565 01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:02,559 Speaker 1: how societ works, even if they disagree with each other 1566 01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:07,240 Speaker 1: about what they want those decisions to be. Now, Con 1567 01:29:07,240 --> 01:29:10,280 Speaker 1: and Cant have decided to take a playbook from Reagan 1568 01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:14,719 Speaker 1: and are rewriting the merger guidelines, but this time they're 1569 01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:17,760 Speaker 1: doing it in reverse. They want to enforce the law, 1570 01:29:18,520 --> 01:29:21,760 Speaker 1: not quietly repeal it. And here's where you come in. 1571 01:29:22,360 --> 01:29:26,360 Speaker 1: They want your help. Con and Cant have opened up 1572 01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:29,720 Speaker 1: a process for the government to solicit comments from the 1573 01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:34,040 Speaker 1: public on mergers. Essentially, they want you to email the 1574 01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:39,200 Speaker 1: government and say what you think. The reason this matters, 1575 01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:43,480 Speaker 1: the reason your comments matter is because the new guidelines 1576 01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:47,479 Speaker 1: will be attacked in the courts, and judges are going 1577 01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:50,920 Speaker 1: to want to make sure that these merger guidelines are 1578 01:29:50,960 --> 01:29:54,679 Speaker 1: based on real input. And I've looked into the docket 1579 01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:57,760 Speaker 1: where there are a bunch of comments. There are a 1580 01:29:57,800 --> 01:30:02,000 Speaker 1: lot of nerdy and annoying conists and corrupt lobbyists who 1581 01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:05,519 Speaker 1: are organized, who are paid by dominant firms, and they 1582 01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:09,720 Speaker 1: have submitted their views saying everything is going great, we 1583 01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:13,400 Speaker 1: don't need any changes. Conon Canter need to hear from 1584 01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:19,200 Speaker 1: ordinary people like you and me. Here's Canter a couple 1585 01:30:19,240 --> 01:30:23,000 Speaker 1: of months ago talking about the need for such feedback. 1586 01:30:23,360 --> 01:30:27,880 Speaker 1: The views of consumers, workers, innovative innovators, farmers and others 1587 01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:31,880 Speaker 1: on the ground feeling the harms of market concentration present 1588 01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:36,880 Speaker 1: an incredible, incredibly valuable perspective for efforts. And so here's 1589 01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:41,080 Speaker 1: our message to the entire American people. Please share your views. 1590 01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:44,799 Speaker 1: We need your input and we absolutely care what you think. 1591 01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:47,040 Speaker 1: You haven't seen any of this on the media, but 1592 01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:50,439 Speaker 1: this is what's actually going in the government. All the 1593 01:30:50,479 --> 01:30:53,840 Speaker 1: money and power in the world is being debated right 1594 01:30:53,880 --> 01:31:00,240 Speaker 1: now by these people with economists and lobbyists submitting comments 1595 01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:04,559 Speaker 1: in an obscure docket. And this is how politics actually changes. 1596 01:31:04,640 --> 01:31:07,679 Speaker 1: And I want to invite you in so help out 1597 01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:10,800 Speaker 1: con and Canter. If you have thoughts on mergers, if 1598 01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:13,320 Speaker 1: you've been through a merger, or if you've bought products 1599 01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:15,479 Speaker 1: from a company that merged, or if you just want 1600 01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:18,200 Speaker 1: to say no more power to big business, go ahead 1601 01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:21,080 Speaker 1: and do that how well. I've put a link in 1602 01:31:21,080 --> 01:31:25,000 Speaker 1: the video description that you can use. The deadline is 1603 01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:28,200 Speaker 1: April twenty first, and that's in about a week and 1604 01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:31,120 Speaker 1: a half. You can submit anonymously as well, so if 1605 01:31:31,120 --> 01:31:34,599 Speaker 1: you're worried about retaliation, just do it without your name attached. 1606 01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:36,760 Speaker 1: So use that link. There are instructions on how to 1607 01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:38,320 Speaker 1: do it. You can read as much as you want 1608 01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:41,920 Speaker 1: about it, but go ahead and get in there so 1609 01:31:41,960 --> 01:31:45,599 Speaker 1: that we can get a counter force against the lobbyists. Now, 1610 01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:49,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of people have actually already submitted comments, from doctors, 1611 01:31:49,720 --> 01:31:54,360 Speaker 1: to video gamers, to pharmaceutical producers that doctors ones are 1612 01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:58,200 Speaker 1: amazing talking about private equity coming in and reducing wages 1613 01:31:58,240 --> 01:32:01,080 Speaker 1: and causing them to harm their patients. Really amazing that 1614 01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:05,200 Speaker 1: the video gamers are concerned about Microsoft activision. But you 1615 01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:09,280 Speaker 1: come in chime in on whatever you're concerned about now 1616 01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:11,639 Speaker 1: on one of the links below. You can also look 1617 01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:13,679 Speaker 1: at the docket like I have and read the comments 1618 01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:17,679 Speaker 1: that other people have put in there. Now, what con 1619 01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:20,160 Speaker 1: and Kant are asking for, what I'm asking you to 1620 01:32:20,240 --> 01:32:23,639 Speaker 1: do may not seem like a big deal. You might 1621 01:32:23,720 --> 01:32:26,160 Speaker 1: think that your voice just doesn't matter, but here's the 1622 01:32:26,200 --> 01:32:29,040 Speaker 1: thing in this case, it does. There are a bunch 1623 01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:32,759 Speaker 1: of comments, but only three hundred right now in the docket, 1624 01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:36,800 Speaker 1: so that's not very many, and having one more or 1625 01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:40,120 Speaker 1: two more does actually matter. Your voice really can make 1626 01:32:40,160 --> 01:32:44,280 Speaker 1: a difference. It's a really bad time right now. It 1627 01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:48,200 Speaker 1: feels very divided. The media is constantly talking about doom, doom, doom. 1628 01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:52,080 Speaker 1: But if you look at antitrust corporate power questions, we 1629 01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:56,240 Speaker 1: really are making progress and it's not covered by the media. 1630 01:32:56,320 --> 01:32:59,599 Speaker 1: These kinds of obscure procedural issues involve all the money 1631 01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:01,840 Speaker 1: and power the world. You don't see them on Fox 1632 01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:04,720 Speaker 1: News or MSNBC. You see them on Breaking Points, but 1633 01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:08,160 Speaker 1: not in the mainstream media. But we are making progress. 1634 01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:10,640 Speaker 1: Two and a half years ago, anti trust was just 1635 01:33:10,720 --> 01:33:14,679 Speaker 1: kind of an interesting idea. But today there are five 1636 01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:19,800 Speaker 1: different government anti trust suits just against Google, and many 1637 01:33:19,800 --> 01:33:21,760 Speaker 1: more that are going to be filed against a lot 1638 01:33:21,800 --> 01:33:25,360 Speaker 1: of dominant firms. So I'm asking you to submit a 1639 01:33:25,400 --> 01:33:28,439 Speaker 1: comment because it will have an impact. Let's reverse what 1640 01:33:28,479 --> 01:33:31,400 Speaker 1: our leaders have done to this country and free ourselves 1641 01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:35,720 Speaker 1: from the monopolies ruining our society. Thanks for watching this 1642 01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:38,479 Speaker 1: Big breakdown on the Breaking Points channel. If you'd like 1643 01:33:38,560 --> 01:33:41,080 Speaker 1: to know more about big business and how our economy 1644 01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:43,880 Speaker 1: really works, you could sign up below for my market 1645 01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:48,080 Speaker 1: power focused newsletter Big Have a good one.