Speaker 1: Hmmm, and welcome back to another edition all the smoke Jack.
Speaker 1: We got a good one today, bro Legendary, got a
Speaker 1: good one today. Someone I've been harassing trying to tell you,
Speaker 1: but on his ass two years Tanner, we need you,
Speaker 1: we need you, and we keep passing each other. But
Speaker 1: he finally came out here for something. I found out
Speaker 1: he was coming out here for something, and he blessed
Speaker 1: us with his time, two time NBA Champ, twelve time
Speaker 1: All Star, one of the greatest point guard slash players,
Speaker 1: the original Zeke to ever play this game, the real
Speaker 1: z Yes, the one and only one. And Isaiah Thomas,
Speaker 1: thank you for the time man, Thank you for coming
Speaker 1: through always always. There was a rumor just recently that
Speaker 1: you were going to sign with the Sons on the
Speaker 1: management side. It came out and then what's the latest
Speaker 1: with that situation.
Speaker 2: So I'm on the board of UWM, which is Matt
Speaker 2: Ishbee's stodent company. And you know it's crazy. You have
Speaker 2: the two biggest mortgage companies in the US in Detroit,
Speaker 2: UWM and Rocket Mortgage. So I'm on the board. He
Speaker 2: and I have been friends for a long time. Advise
Speaker 2: him on a couple of things. He advised me on
Speaker 2: a couple of things business wise, and we have been
Speaker 2: you know, really looking for a team since twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: Matt wanted to get into the business. His brother wants
Speaker 2: to own a baseball team. Matt wanted to own a
Speaker 2: basketball team. So you know, when the story came out,
Speaker 2: it was only natural that they put us together, you know,
Speaker 2: advising of talk and still consulting. I don't have any
Speaker 2: plans of being in a front office position ever. Again
Speaker 2: in terms of running basketball operations. Now, when you talk
Speaker 2: about advising, consulting, ownership, those type of things, that's probably
Speaker 2: where I fit in at you know, not necessarily. I
Speaker 2: got too much going on. I don't see myself sitting
Speaker 2: in an office day to day running basketball ops again,
Speaker 2: but from an advising consulting standpoint, that is on the table,
Speaker 2: and you know, we'll see what happened. Interesting.
Speaker 1: Obviously, basketball is what you're known for, but now you're
Speaker 1: known for just your entrepreneurialism is that a word, or
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial ship. I mean doing very well making mogul, Yeah, cannabis, space,
Speaker 1: champagne space, real estate, private equity. Business of basketball wasn't
Speaker 1: very big when you played, because it wasn't very big
Speaker 1: when we played, you know what I mean. Now it's
Speaker 1: the norm. But you've been able to really capitalize off
Speaker 1: the court with investments in the business space. Can you
Speaker 1: walk us through first and foremost of your champagne because
Speaker 1: you said, that's what's keeping you youthful.
Speaker 2: So fortunately enough for me, you know, basketball in sport
Speaker 2: has given me the opportunity to really, you know, expand globally.
Speaker 2: And name of my firm is Isaiah International, and we
Speaker 2: do a lot of business outside of the United States.
Speaker 2: So when you talk about the champagne space, we got
Speaker 2: two hundred acres over in the Old Region of Champagne,
Speaker 2: which is the oldest region of Champagne, with the largest
Speaker 2: black owned champagne company in the US, largest first press
Speaker 2: grape of champagne in the US. And there's three presses
Speaker 2: of the great first press, second press, third press, and
Speaker 2: as you know, the first press is the best press.
Speaker 2: We also are known for zero and low sugar champagnes.
Speaker 2: Why did we want zero and low sugar champagnes? Being
Speaker 2: former athletes? Right, most people who drink champagne immediately complain
Speaker 2: of a headache, So you ask the question why, Right,
Speaker 2: it's the high sugar content in the high soul fights, right.
Speaker 2: So we wanted to bring something back to the US,
Speaker 2: not only back to the US, but back to you know,
Speaker 2: all people who love champagne, drink champagne, promote champagne, but.
Speaker 3: It's not theirs.
Speaker 2: Uh So what we wanted to do is bring you
Speaker 2: the best of the best. And my ECON teacher told
Speaker 2: me a long time ago that you know, if you
Speaker 2: if you got the highest quality and you can give
Speaker 2: it to the customer and the consumer at the lowest price,
Speaker 2: and then long term you're going to win the game.
Speaker 2: So it's not the best marketed, it's the you know,
Speaker 2: the most, it's the best, highest quality. And we're out
Speaker 2: here now getting ready on board and a couple of
Speaker 2: the Hyatt hotels. That's why I'm out here. So Sherilon
Speaker 2: Champagne the number one rated zero low sugar, first press
Speaker 2: of the great Champagne in the United States, Black owned
Speaker 2: and also supported by the four hundred and fifty NBA
Speaker 2: players on the NBPA side. So shout out to the
Speaker 2: NBPA for you know, you know, helping and sticking with
Speaker 2: former players and marked everybody else in the market.
Speaker 1: Now we got some black black owns, so it's good
Speaker 1: to get that in there.
Speaker 4: They might have the all time most successful backcourt ever.
Speaker 5: Michael Wave, super successful, Z and Joe d them three.
Speaker 4: Like if you wanted to model use up out of
Speaker 4: some basketball players that took after advantage of their career
Speaker 4: and after basketball, y'all might have the top basketball, I
Speaker 4: mean backcourt in history.
Speaker 5: As far as business wise.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 4: Now, seriously, if you think about it, ain't lying if
Speaker 4: you think about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way, but that's
Speaker 2: why we own this show. That's my y'all. That's my y'all.
Speaker 3: Another you think, well, thank you for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, and you know we if you
Speaker 2: notice when we was describing all Salves when we were playing,
Speaker 2: the media always gave us the physically tough label, but
Speaker 2: we always described ourselves as mentally tough. And that's the
Speaker 2: most important time. Yeah, it's like, you know, you you
Speaker 2: win with smart people. You know, you win with people
Speaker 2: who don't make mistakes. You know who I understand how
Speaker 2: to you know, operate, work within the system, game plan,
Speaker 2: you know, make sacrifices, and then you try to go
Speaker 2: out and win the basketball game with it, and fortunately
Speaker 2: enough for us, we had a lot of players that
Speaker 2: wanted to do that and did it at a very
Speaker 2: high level.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about the cannabis space.
Speaker 1: That's something that Jack and I are both in and
Speaker 1: and and obviously you know, this push was supposed to
Speaker 1: be the push for the minority population in that space,
Speaker 1: and we're still very small percentage of the population that's
Speaker 1: making that up. But can you talk to us what
Speaker 1: you guys are doing in the cannabis space.
Speaker 2: So I'm chairman CEO of a publicly traded company called
Speaker 2: One World Products where we cultivate and grow in Colombia.
Speaker 2: Now again, my firm is Isaiah International, and we do
Speaker 2: a lot of business, most of our businesses outside of
Speaker 2: the United States because outside of the United States, I
Speaker 2: classify as an American. Inside the United States, I classify
Speaker 2: as black, and you get the minority tax. And we
Speaker 2: got a lot of white folks in here today who travel,
Speaker 2: you know, and when you travel outside of the United
Speaker 2: States your passport, you know, you white folks say they
Speaker 2: they're American. But the only time they say they're white
Speaker 2: is when they come back into the United States. Only
Speaker 2: time we say we black is when we come into
Speaker 2: the United States. Outside of the United States, there are
Speaker 2: no minority classifications in terms of business.
Speaker 3: So one world products.
Speaker 2: Why do we choose to cultivate and grow in Colombia
Speaker 2: the same reason we France for Champagne, the soil, the
Speaker 2: sun and also the farmers and the workers that you
Speaker 2: work with in terms of indigenous farmers and growers Columbia.
Speaker 2: Right now we've partnered with the Afro Columbia community. There
Speaker 2: been granted one point two million acres of land to
Speaker 2: grow industrial hemp. So when industrial hemp space, and we're
Speaker 2: also in the THCHC in CBD space, there are also
Speaker 2: when a process, I got a couple of confidentiality agreement signs,
Speaker 2: so I got to keep my fingers crossed. But when
Speaker 2: the process of onboarding two of the larger brands here
Speaker 2: in the in the US who sell CBD and THC products.
Speaker 2: Now we can't distribute THHC products across the across the
Speaker 2: border yet, but internationally, as you know, the borders have
Speaker 2: opened up in other countries, so we can move THHC
Speaker 2: and CBD products into other countries. The US will open
Speaker 2: up THC wise, it has opened up CBD wise, so
Speaker 2: we're able to move product into the into the US
Speaker 2: on the CBD in the CBD oils standpoint. The industrial
Speaker 2: hemp side, we work with the automotive industry. Just signed
Speaker 2: an agreement with Stilantis and Flexingate to produce a part
Speaker 2: on the jeep Wrangler that they've given us that we
Speaker 2: in the automobile space they want to reduce their carbon footprint.
Speaker 2: Hemp is the natural carbon sink, so it takes carbon
Speaker 2: out of the air. And what we've done in that
Speaker 2: company one world product is that we position our sales
Speaker 2: not only to be the largest supplier of industrial hemp uh,
Speaker 2: but if you think of how can I put it.
Speaker 2: Most companies are set up to deal with corporations. We
Speaker 2: set our salves up to deal with industry changes. So
Speaker 2: as as plastics are moved out of the industry, you're
Speaker 2: looking for the next raw material that will be infused
Speaker 2: into the industry, and we see industrial hemp being the
Speaker 2: replacement for plastics and also reducing the carbon footprint. You
Speaker 2: both of you know the discovery of the indocannabinoid system
Speaker 2: that was discovered in the nineties. Had we known about
Speaker 2: it when we was playing, I'm sure, we would have
Speaker 2: treated ourselves much differently. You know they when you talk
Speaker 2: about CBD and THC. The two things that it does
Speaker 2: for athletes, right reduces inflammation and help you sleep. We
Speaker 2: need no swelling, no pain, I can go to sleep,
Speaker 2: you know. So I think, uh, you know, the plant
Speaker 2: is going to change the way medicine is prescribed. They're
Speaker 2: now teaching in metal school now about the indocannabinoid system
Speaker 2: CB one, CB two receptors, and the more we discover
Speaker 2: the benefits of the plant, the more it will be used.
Speaker 2: Now you hit an important topic in terms of you know,
Speaker 2: classified as black in this country getting business opportunities. We
Speaker 2: didn't get it on the first blush to first go around.
Speaker 2: Now that federal and state still having come together in
Speaker 2: terms of their laws. In the dispensary model that's set
Speaker 2: up here in the States, you can only cultivate and
Speaker 2: grow from You can only buy from the cultivators within
Speaker 2: the state, but you can't cross state lines. So it's
Speaker 2: an antiquated business model that's been set up here. We
Speaker 2: do believe that it will have to expand and open up.
Speaker 2: And once it expands, like any product, and it's you
Speaker 2: can globally bly it, buy it, and supply it. We
Speaker 2: see ourselves in Colombia being a unique trade partner with
Speaker 2: the US, probably the biggest trade partner with the US
Speaker 2: on this side of the equator. Most of your flowers
Speaker 2: that you get come from Columbia here in the US,
Speaker 2: your coffee, your bananas, a lot of fruit. So as
Speaker 2: a trade partner, Colombia is one of your biggest trade partners.
Speaker 2: Colombia is projected to supply forty four percent of the
Speaker 2: world's cannabis supply only because of the geography and also
Speaker 2: because you can turn your land over three times a year.
Speaker 2: So again that's that's what we do in one world
Speaker 2: products in terms of So I'm in the champagne space
Speaker 2: and I'm in the cannabis space, and my kids love it.
Speaker 2: I know. That's right. Hey, that is the plug. Is puffet,
Speaker 2: that is the plug.
Speaker 5: That's dope. Let's go back, man.
Speaker 4: I'm a West Side of No, you're a west side absolutely.
Speaker 4: Talk about a young z growing up on the West
Speaker 4: Side of Chicago.
Speaker 2: It was it was. It was hard and as a
Speaker 2: matter of fact, you were you were just there. I
Speaker 2: think about a year ago he was running around in
Speaker 2: oh Block. Yeah, I got the calls, right, I was like, nah,
Speaker 2: I call, I said, I'll let him know that I
Speaker 2: was out there. No. But growing up on the West
Speaker 2: side of Chicago, and we we emphasized west side. And
Speaker 2: here's why because, uh my mom worked for Fred Hampton
Speaker 2: and I was one of the kids that got the
Speaker 2: free breakfast, you know, learned martial arts and all that.
Speaker 2: And and the Black Panther headquarter was right there on
Speaker 2: Madison in Western. The Chicago Bulls the stadium was two
Speaker 2: blocks from Madison in Western where we you know you
Speaker 2: go to United Center now, or what we called the stadium,
Speaker 2: it was two blocks from there. So as a kid,
Speaker 2: I was standing outside the stadium big and for shoes,
Speaker 2: you know. And then they would throw the popcorn out
Speaker 2: after the game and they would put it in a
Speaker 2: trash band. So we would always you know, wait and
Speaker 2: get the popcorn and take it home. But growing up
Speaker 2: on the West side, right, you had Noble Drew a
Speaker 2: lead teachings Morsh Americans. And at that time it was
Speaker 2: about nationality, right, and you and I have had some
Speaker 2: conversations about you know, nationality and citizenship. That's what we
Speaker 2: were all about on the West side of Chicago. When
Speaker 2: Martin Luther King moved into the West Side of Chicago,
Speaker 2: lived four blocks from my house. There's a street named
Speaker 2: after my mom in Chicago. My mom was she was
Speaker 2: a gangster. You know, she's a real deal. Yeah, So
Speaker 2: homing in Jackson, you'll see Mary Thomas Way, and you know,
Speaker 2: named after my mom. You know, we marched in all
Speaker 2: the civil rights movements. You know, when Martin Luther King
Speaker 2: moved in, you know, we didn't have babysitters. There's nine
Speaker 2: of us, so she, you know, she would take us
Speaker 2: and you know, we had to go where her and
Speaker 2: my pops went, you know. And so that's kind of
Speaker 2: the neighborhood that that I'm from. You know, the first
Speaker 2: original gang that started in the United States, the Vice Lords.
Speaker 2: When you talk about the Vice Lords and and all
Speaker 2: these gangs that really started, you know, they if they
Speaker 2: go back and they read their original charters right, the
Speaker 2: original charters were set up.
Speaker 3: They was supposed to be community.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was protecting the neighborhood, and it was
Speaker 2: protecting neighborhood from the police, right, because there's a lot
Speaker 2: of police brutality and we were fighting not to be colorized.
Speaker 2: We were fighting not to be put in apartheid colorized system.
Speaker 2: And when you go back and you look and you
Speaker 2: know those signs that they was running in Memphis said,
Speaker 2: I am a man. You know, we were fighting not
Speaker 2: to be dehumanized and taken out of all humanity. Right.
Speaker 3: We wanted to be and remain human.
Speaker 2: But now we've accepted and we've adopted this colorized system.
Speaker 2: Uh But but those were the teachings that were taught
Speaker 2: on the West Side of Chicago. So that's where I
Speaker 2: come from, That's what's ingrained in me, that's what I carry,
Speaker 2: that's what I still fight for today. And you know,
Speaker 2: there's no there's no pure anything. We're all living on
Speaker 2: a hyphen right you you you know you Italian American.
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna say this, right, when we were growing up,
Speaker 2: we grew up with Italians.
Speaker 3: We grew up with Greeks, we grew up with Polish,
Speaker 3: we grew up with.
Speaker 2: Irish, right, and they were proud to call themselves Greek, Italian, Irish.
Speaker 2: Right When did everybody become white?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: You know, I mean they don't say Greek.
Speaker 2: Anymore, they don't say I'm Italian anymore, they don't say
Speaker 2: you know Jeworge that everybody see the white, black, green, purple,
Speaker 2: blue or orange people about that.
Speaker 1: My mom I used to, you know, what are you?
Speaker 1: I'm black and white. My Mom's like, no, you're Italian.
Speaker 1: You're Italian. You're not white, You're Italian, right, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And and and by the way, the Italians, you know,
Speaker 2: come from the Moors, right, you know, so you know,
Speaker 2: when you when you, all of us are human beings, right,
Speaker 2: and and if we can get back to being human
Speaker 2: beings and get away from this colorized apartheid system that
Speaker 2: we're operating in, then we got a chance to make it,
Speaker 2: you know. And that's what the fight has always been
Speaker 2: about in this country, right, Those who are who have
Speaker 2: been classified as black have always been trying to get
Speaker 2: out of black status. So when immigrants come in, they
Speaker 2: quickly say what's your status, and they tell you what
Speaker 2: this status is? Right, and you know, so nationality, birthright,
Speaker 2: citizenship status, those are the things that we need to
Speaker 2: be talking about. That was the conversation on the West Side,
Speaker 2: and it's the conversation I still carry today.
Speaker 4: One quick question, you said, you and your mom used
Speaker 4: to take you out to the marches and stuff like that.
Speaker 4: I got a chance to experience that with George Floyd.
Speaker 4: Did any of that change you experienced that, like, did
Speaker 4: that have like any type of hold on you to
Speaker 4: be able to experience that as a youngster, Cause I
Speaker 4: experienced as a grown man and it definitely changed me.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so two things that I noticed dramatically. So
Speaker 2: when we were marching, you know, in the sixties, my
Speaker 2: first ten years of life, right, Martin Luther King's assassinated,
Speaker 2: Fred Hampton's assassinated, the Kennedys are assassinated, and we're talking
Speaker 2: sixty three sixty five. Then the Cicero Riots, Chicago riots
Speaker 2: sixty six sixty seven, So this is my first ten
Speaker 2: years of lights on the West Side. So I like
Speaker 2: seven riots, you know, all in all community, right, and
Speaker 2: it was just the community in the city marching. Right.
Speaker 2: George Floyd gets killed, and I watched all the pain
Speaker 2: that you was going through, and we all cried for
Speaker 2: you and felt for you and saw your heart on
Speaker 2: display for your brother.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 3: But the thing that.
Speaker 2: Was so different about George Floyd and us marching for
Speaker 2: voting rights, I can't believe I'm saying this. In this country,
Speaker 2: we still marching and trying to get voting rights. Think
Speaker 2: about what I'm saying, right, classified as white in this country,
Speaker 2: they ain't never had to march for votevoting rights right,
Speaker 2: equal rights. Uh, keyword civil rights. I just need you
Speaker 2: to be civil to me. So and these are these
Speaker 2: are these are these are labels right, these are labels
Speaker 2: civil rights, equal rights, voting rights. Right. So George Floyd gets,
Speaker 2: you know, gets murdered and watching all the pain that
Speaker 2: you was going through. But then seeing the whole world.
Speaker 2: That's different. It's different. Now the whole world stood up
Speaker 2: and was marching those who were classified as black, white,
Speaker 2: different countries and and and what they were saying is, hey,
Speaker 2: United States of America, these people that y'all have classified
Speaker 2: as black, please stop doing this to them. Change the
Speaker 2: these laws, let them be human, right, give them their
Speaker 2: nationality back, let them be a part of the system.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 2: And that was different. You know, where the world stood up.
Speaker 2: And not only did the world stand up, but you
Speaker 2: had black folk, white folk, green folk.
Speaker 3: And everybody, I mean everybody.
Speaker 2: And in the sustained movement of the young folk. The
Speaker 2: young folk in this country was like, Hey, I don't
Speaker 2: know what y'all talking about, but I like snoop, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like, you know, it's like you
Speaker 2: know this, my brother is and so the young folk,
Speaker 2: what they've done in this country, and I hope they
Speaker 2: keep it up, is putting the pressure on to to
Speaker 2: to let us become a part of the United States,
Speaker 2: American fact brick and and we don't need no.
Speaker 3: No, no.
Speaker 2: You know we classified as a minority when you look
Speaker 2: these terms up in the dictionary, right, hey, these words
Speaker 2: have meaning, right, So hey, I'm not a minority. I'm
Speaker 2: a grown man, right right, take care of myself, pay
Speaker 2: my own bills. You know, I'm not a handicap individual,
Speaker 2: and don't classify my business as handicap, you know, treat me,
Speaker 2: you know, level the playing field. We come from, sport
Speaker 2: and all we asked for is hey, man, just the
Speaker 2: referees don't cheat like they change for the Lakers. Keep
Speaker 2: it either gives a chance.
Speaker 3: So sorry, I went off on that.
Speaker 4: Now, that's why I asked. That's why you had me.
Speaker 4: I was about to let them down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw them tears come. But but you're saying, man,
Speaker 2: but that's some deep stuff. Man, y'all did it? I
Speaker 2: mean y'all and y'all doing it, and we need y'all
Speaker 2: to keep doing it, appreciate it.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: Let's let's stay on the west side. Let's talk about
Speaker 4: Lord Henry. How how big was he in your life?
Speaker 4: And how nice was he?
Speaker 2: Man? So my older brother, Lord Henry, right, and so
Speaker 2: I think he may steal hold of the Catholic school
Speaker 2: scoring record went to Saint Phillip's. And you know when
Speaker 2: we talk about George Gervin, right, I didn't know George
Speaker 2: Gervin back then. And back then the NBA won on
Speaker 2: TV like the NBA's on TV now. So you only
Speaker 2: admired your your the people in your neighborhood or your
Speaker 2: older brothers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the locals.
Speaker 2: And every now and then you may you may hear
Speaker 2: about doctor J. And then your imagination you this is
Speaker 2: doctor J. Move but you ain't never really seen him, right,
Speaker 2: But my brother Lord Henry was so smooth man. And
Speaker 2: the name alone you had to be called Lord h.
Speaker 2: You know, my mom and my dad they had high
Speaker 2: hopes and of course of the place that we was
Speaker 2: living in. That's that's that's how it was. But but
Speaker 2: now and and and he got turned out though, you know,
Speaker 2: he got turned out on heroin.
Speaker 3: Ended up dying, uh, you know, several years ago.
Speaker 2: But but man, you're talking about a pretty jump shot,
Speaker 2: you know, between the legs, dribbles behind the back, and
Speaker 2: the way I was taught to play the game and
Speaker 2: the way he taught me to play the game.
Speaker 3: It was all spiritual.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 2: It was like and I can't I can't remember him
Speaker 2: and my older my my second oldest brother, third oldest brother, Larry.
Speaker 3: You know, it's like.
Speaker 2: Junior, you know, you you just can't play the game.
Speaker 3: You gotta feel it.
Speaker 2: I mean, you gotta when you shake, you you gotta
Speaker 2: feel it. Man, you just can't you just dribbling. The
Speaker 2: fun is that you just dripping. You gotta feel it, man.
Speaker 2: And so you that's how you know you tried to play.
Speaker 2: You tried to put that spirituality into the game where
Speaker 2: you tried to make that person who's watching.
Speaker 3: You play feel what you feel. Right.
Speaker 2: And so my brother Lord Henry, you know, like I said,
Speaker 2: he died of heroin.
Speaker 3: But the one thing, you know, he kicked right.
Speaker 2: And I remember when he kicked, you know, and he said,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go back to school, and and while he kicked,
Speaker 2: he was like, damn, you know it was. It was.
Speaker 2: It was easier when I was on drugs, you know,
Speaker 2: because now now you got to get back into the system.
Speaker 2: You've been out of the system for a long time.
Speaker 2: But he went back, graduated from college, and I'll never forget.
Speaker 2: So you've been on the West side, right, we uh
Speaker 2: his The night before graduation, I rented a bus and
Speaker 2: the bus was eating on Fifth Avenue in Jackson, right,
Speaker 2: and and he was graduating from UH school in Detroit,
Speaker 2: UH Universe, Phoenix University, you know that university online?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that online thing.
Speaker 2: So so I rented a bus and I had the bus,
Speaker 2: you know, show up on Fifth Avenue and Jackson at
Speaker 2: four in the morning, Three in the morning. Want everybody
Speaker 2: to be there, three in the morning. Bus gonna leave
Speaker 2: at four, going down to Detroit so we can watch
Speaker 2: Lord Henry graduate at Ford Field. And I never forget
Speaker 2: bus driver calling me up like, hey, man, you you
Speaker 2: sure I got the right address? You shure I'm in
Speaker 2: the right Okay. I'm like, yeah, man, you're in the
Speaker 2: right location. So anyway, all the Lord Henry's friends, you know,
Speaker 2: some are still addicts, then some you know, you know,
Speaker 2: I've kicked and everything. So we load up the bus
Speaker 2: and as the bus gets loaded up, not drive down
Speaker 2: to Detroit. I meet him in Detroit and we had
Speaker 2: his graduation and I never forget.
Speaker 3: Man, like.
Speaker 2: My brother walking across the stage had his captain gown on.
Speaker 2: He didn't know what he was gonna be there, and
Speaker 2: and all his friends started hollering Lord hen right, Lord Henry,
Speaker 2: and man, he broke down on the stage and just
Speaker 2: started crying, like crying like a little baby. Man. That
Speaker 2: was That was one of the most beautiful days that
Speaker 2: I remember. So when you talk about Lord Henry y
Speaker 2: has basketball playing, but the fact that that dude went
Speaker 2: back to school and then he just died a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago, you know, organs just shut down, all
Speaker 2: of the heroin and stuff. It just body just collapsed.
Speaker 2: But rest in man. Yeah, thanks for bringing him up, man,
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you. Man.
Speaker 4: I just lost my little brother. I lost my older
Speaker 4: brother when I was young. So I know the feeling, yeah,
Speaker 4: I know the feeling. Yeah, Chicago Pipeline, all the especially
Speaker 4: now all the young players that's coming out of Chicago.
Speaker 5: Man, what's in the water though?
Speaker 4: You got d Wade, Anthony Davis, Kevin garn There, Derek Rose,
Speaker 4: Tim Hardaway and too Walker yourself will buying them. Patrick Beverley,
Speaker 4: you got so many, so many hoopers come from there.
Speaker 4: All dogs, yeah, all dogs talking about what's in the water.
Speaker 2: Well it's in Detroit water now too, so I claim Chicago.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. And and but you know, for us, right
Speaker 2: is so we always say the south Side, like them
Speaker 2: south Side guys, you name, they all got haircuts, you know,
Speaker 2: they pretty, you know what I mean? And they and
Speaker 2: they can shoot right west side. We we d ing
Speaker 2: up so we Patrick Beverly, We Tony Allen, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, like we, I mean we we were
Speaker 2: picking you up ninety four feet, We getting in your face,
Speaker 2: Tim Hardaway, you know them south Side dudes, Dwayne Wade,
Speaker 2: they can score, yeah, I mean they can. They can
Speaker 2: score the basketball. So it's it's like we and then
Speaker 2: they got a lot of food over there too, we
Speaker 2: having food. But but I would say, just what's in
Speaker 2: the water again, it's the spirituality of you know, wanting
Speaker 2: to be the best and wanting to compete. And the
Speaker 2: guy that we the probably the most proud of out
Speaker 2: of Chicago is Derreck Roves. I mean he man, he
Speaker 2: he lived all of all dreams all of all dream right,
Speaker 2: and then he plays for the Chicago Bulls, right, and
Speaker 2: then he becomes the youngest envy here the league at
Speaker 2: twenty Oh man. I mean, I mean, I mean everybody's like,
Speaker 2: you know, when d Rose walk into the room, it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, theme music playing. I mean, so you know again,
Speaker 2: it's just a I think it's competition, right, we want
Speaker 2: to compete. A lot of us really like to fight.
Speaker 2: Don't say we win all off fights, right, nobody does. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like I grew up fighting. I had to fight like
Speaker 2: twice a week. I didn't win all my fights. But
Speaker 2: then you just start like fighting, right, and you just
Speaker 2: be like, all right, you know part of it, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think in Chicago that's that's part of like the
Speaker 2: get down now in Detroit. So I you know, when
Speaker 2: you look at what I the way I grew up
Speaker 2: and the way I learned how to play in Chicago,
Speaker 2: what I tried to do is take that to Detroit.
Speaker 2: So when you look at the Chris Webbers, you look
Speaker 2: at the Derrick Coleman's, you look at the Jay and Roads,
Speaker 2: you look at the Steve Smith, you look at you
Speaker 2: know them, we all bring that same like, Okay, we
Speaker 2: were coming with it. And if you don't like it,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: You know Fields, Yeah, Ronnie Fields, that's the name my classmate.
Speaker 5: If he wouldn't have gotten an accident, bro.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people don't remember, like so KG. Right, people talk
Speaker 2: about Kevin Garnett, But in Chicago they said Kevin Garnett
Speaker 2: play with I say that all the time.
Speaker 3: It was like he played with Ronny Fields man.
Speaker 2: And and you're talking about somebody jumping a right. So
Speaker 2: when KG first got to Chicago, right, you know, KG
Speaker 2: liked to talk, and you know he really animated, right,
Speaker 2: and he wanted to play everywhere, like everywhere, and and
Speaker 2: so he going up in the gym and and and
Speaker 2: so everybody like, man, who is this dude? Man?
Speaker 3: He kind of talk a lot.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like nah, man, he good man, he
Speaker 2: good like Liam. And so KG like went all over
Speaker 2: Chicago play. But as you say, he's the guy that
Speaker 2: played with Ronnie Felds. Truth. And it's like Dwayne Wade
Speaker 2: in Chicago, right, Dwayne Wade get mad love, but he
Speaker 2: don't get them the the Ronnie Fields kind of love.
Speaker 2: Because in Chicago, it's what you did in high school. Yeah,
Speaker 2: if you if you was the man in high school,
Speaker 2: you're the man for life in Chicago.
Speaker 3: Chicago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have a more decorated athlete that come
Speaker 2: out of Chicago than Dwayne Wade. Dwayne Wade is like
Speaker 2: the gold standard, you know, Olympics, gold medal, championships, everything. No,
Speaker 2: no one has got more you know, decorations than Dwayne Wade.
Speaker 3: But in Chicago, oh.
Speaker 2: Man Field man, you know what I mean, That's how
Speaker 2: I go. You know, it's like what you did you
Speaker 2: know in high school is what matters. That's crazy.
Speaker 1: Uh, you end up shooting Indiana for college? Who else
Speaker 1: was on your list?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 2: I didn't choose Indiana, Mom, Indiana, We'll.
Speaker 1: Talk to us about where your who was recruiting you
Speaker 1: and where you wanted to go.
Speaker 2: So of course I wanted to stay at home and
Speaker 2: go to Paul uh And then my second choice was
Speaker 2: Iowa with Loudosen. And you know, so coach Rosboro was
Speaker 2: the assistant coach at at Iowa and he actually coached
Speaker 2: my brother Lord Henry and Gregory at Our Lady of Sorrows.
Speaker 2: So if you go back and you look at Iowa,
Speaker 2: Loudosen always has Chicago guards. You know from Ronnie Lester,
Speaker 2: Kenny Arnold. I mean, so he had that Chicago Go Pipeline,
Speaker 2: Kevin Boyle, Jim Stack, and he was able to get
Speaker 2: all them because he had Rosboro who had coached on
Speaker 2: the West Side. So I wanted to go to DePaul,
Speaker 2: wanted to stay home. And at that time were we
Speaker 2: were poored and poor, you know, no lights, no gas,
Speaker 2: no food, you know, struggling every day. And you know,
Speaker 2: at that time, people was offering you money to come
Speaker 2: to school. And I never forget, you know, had I
Speaker 2: had I stayed home in Chicago, things would have been
Speaker 2: really nice for the family.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I.
Speaker 2: Would be alive to day though, if I would have
Speaker 2: stayed home in Chicago. And and y'all can understand this,
Speaker 2: and I've never really said this, but growing up in
Speaker 2: the neighborhood that I grew up in and growing up
Speaker 2: the way we grew up, my mom made the wise
Speaker 2: decision and said, you know, you're going to go to Indianah.
Speaker 2: Had I stayed in Chicago, I don't know, if you know,
Speaker 2: running and running around doing the things that we were doing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, but she chose Indiana for me.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Legend has it that when Bob Knight showed up, the
Speaker 1: whole neighborhood showed up.
Speaker 2: The whole neighborhood showed up, and and then there was
Speaker 2: a fight almost that broke out too. So my so,
Speaker 2: my so, my two older brothers, you know, all my
Speaker 2: brothers were there, and my second oldest brother, Gregory. I'm
Speaker 2: sure you heard about my second oldest brother, Gregory. Uh
Speaker 2: so he so he asked Coach Knight the question. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, you know, Coach, like, if if
Speaker 2: Junior was to you know, go down to Indiana, you know,
Speaker 2: we we know the klan is is right there, and
Speaker 2: if something was to go down, you know, who's going
Speaker 2: to look out for Junior? And I thought, coach and
Speaker 2: I gave a you know, pretty slick so you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. He's like, you know, well, if if
Speaker 2: we're winning, then they gonna look out. And he said
Speaker 2: if we lose it, you know, and you know, everybody
Speaker 2: kind of laughed off, but my brother he didn't liked it.
Speaker 2: Answer now and so so back up, So Coach Night,
Speaker 2: when he come to visit me, he walk in with
Speaker 2: Wayne Embry and Quinn Buckner. Now, Quinn Buckner, you know undefeated,
Speaker 2: you know at Thornbridge, undefeated at Indiana, and and Wayne
Speaker 2: Embry first black general manager you know in Milwaukee. Now
Speaker 2: he walk in, he flanked with him, right, and he
Speaker 2: coming to recruit me, so big respect walking through the door.
Speaker 2: So my brother didn't like his answer, right, And and
Speaker 2: so my brother, you know, my brother was lit at
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 3: I mean he was you know, that's just.
Speaker 2: How they was, right. And so my brother was like, hey, man,
Speaker 2: I you know, I'm like that, you know that, what
Speaker 2: you mean, they gonna take care we take care of junior,
Speaker 2: you know. And and so the conversation quickly got heated,
Speaker 2: and you know, I you know, the voices raised and
Speaker 2: everything else. And so everybody's like, no, no, y'all, calm
Speaker 2: down now. After that, and so coach Knight stood up.
Speaker 2: You know, my brother's like, well, we can take this outside.
Speaker 2: So Coach Knight stood up and took off his jacket
Speaker 2: and started rolling up his sleep like, yeah, we could
Speaker 2: take this outside. And everybody's like no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2: And so I look over there and my mom, right,
Speaker 2: my mom just sitting there real quiet, kind of nodding
Speaker 2: her head, doing like this, and I'm like, oh, she
Speaker 2: liked the dude, she liked it all. She's falling for it. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So anyway, man, I'm glad they didn't go outside.
Speaker 2: He was gonna get jumped. Oh, he wouldn't have made
Speaker 2: it back in. Thought. But what he thought it was
Speaker 2: just gonna be a one on one thing. Now, he
Speaker 2: wouldn't have made it back in as a matter of fact.
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, he would have got stuck
Speaker 2: up first.
Speaker 3: He stuck on first.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he wouldn't have made it back in, you know,
Speaker 2: for sure.
Speaker 4: I remember I remember Bobbie Knight called me my senior year.
Speaker 4: He called he called my houseman. Mama aster the phone.
Speaker 4: She was talking to him. She's like, hold, I'm gonna
Speaker 4: put you on speaker, Paul. This was his exact words.
Speaker 4: Do you want to come to Indiana?
Speaker 2: Not? Right? Straight up? Bro, I'm like huh. I'm like, Mama,
Speaker 2: like I don't know what, excuse me?
Speaker 5: Do you want to come to Indiana? Not?
Speaker 4: And she's like, well, we'll have to give you a
Speaker 4: call back. And she wouldn't expecting to be so blunt.
Speaker 4: And that's all he said, Bro.
Speaker 2: Yeah, never heard from again.
Speaker 5: Trip.
Speaker 2: Do you want to come to Indiana?
Speaker 5: Not?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3: No, he was straight game with it.
Speaker 2: He walked up in the house and said, look, I'm
Speaker 2: off your son three things, Miss tim Now it's me
Speaker 2: sitting here right, he said, Miss Thomas, I'm asking I'm
Speaker 2: off of your son three things. He's gonna be a gentleman,
Speaker 2: graduate from college, and I'm gonna teach him how everything
Speaker 2: I know about basketball. And I'm like, well that that
Speaker 2: ain't enough where the money at, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: He's like, and but you know that's how I recruited.
Speaker 2: And the thing that the thing that my mom and
Speaker 2: I would say my sister that they really loved that
Speaker 2: I didn't understand at that time. Well, Coach Knight was
Speaker 2: doing in the seventies and a little bit of the eighties,
Speaker 2: taking young classified as black men, young boys in the
Speaker 2: United States of America, taking them down to Bloomington, Indiana,
Speaker 2: Bookend by the Klan. Right, everybody graduated from college, everybody's
Speaker 2: doing well, everybody won championships.
Speaker 3: And he didn't cheat, and he didn't cheat and he didn't.
Speaker 2: Cheat, and that was unheard of during that period of
Speaker 2: time because going to college, he was going to take
Speaker 2: basket weaving. You know, you one didn't have to go
Speaker 2: to class. Somebody's gonna be doing your homework. Everybody who
Speaker 2: graduated from Indiana, you went to school, you did your homework,
Speaker 2: and you got a real grade. He prepared you. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: How long did it take for you to buy in?
Speaker 5: Though?
Speaker 2: I mean he compromised, he I had, you.
Speaker 3: Know, it's like, hey man, this how is gonna be?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: You know, one, no place to go?
Speaker 2: You know, I got kicked off the team a couple
Speaker 2: of times, and and I was like, I'm leaving, I'm
Speaker 2: going home. But then I remember one no lights at home,
Speaker 2: were no food at home or no gas at home.
Speaker 2: So and you wasn't getting no sympathy from your mom.
Speaker 2: Your mom was like, you know, you got to stay there.
Speaker 2: So but uh. The thing that I the thing that
Speaker 2: I loved about Coach Night now that I'm older, is
Speaker 2: that he had the courage to coach me. He had
Speaker 2: the courage to have confrontation with me. He had the
Speaker 2: courage to make me do right when I wanted to
Speaker 2: be wrong right. He didn't let me slide, he didn't
Speaker 2: let me get by. And it would have been easier
Speaker 2: for him to do that now that I looking back,
Speaker 2: because I was pretty good at the time, but I
Speaker 2: didn't know how good I was as a player, right,
Speaker 2: so he let me, you know, he he basically was like, no,
Speaker 2: you you you gotta go to class.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 2: If you don't go to class, you can't come to practice.
Speaker 2: You can't lay in your bed all day and think
Speaker 2: you're gonna come to practice and didn't go to class.
Speaker 3: That ain't happening. Now.
Speaker 2: Of course, that's what I wanted to do. That's what
Speaker 2: we all wanted to do. So and then in terms
Speaker 2: of freedom, right, like we had no plays at Indiana,
Speaker 2: We didn't have out of bounds play, we weren't coming
Speaker 2: down calling, played twenty two up, thirty two out. You know,
Speaker 2: it was like now you got to get to know
Speaker 2: your teammate. And once you get to know your teammate,
Speaker 2: then you'll know if he's going left or right. But
Speaker 2: we played this game they call passing game, similar to
Speaker 2: what Golden State does now. Now, Steve Kirk comes from
Speaker 2: the you know, he comes from the the coaching tree, right, Loudosen.
Speaker 2: You know when you look at Loudosen, when you look
Speaker 2: at Pop, you know all of them really have you know,
Speaker 2: similar coaching trees and thinking philosophies very similar to night right,
Speaker 2: So that passing game, that that that that that that
Speaker 2: know your teammate, understand what your teammates gonna do. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know how we're going to attack the opponent, how
Speaker 2: we're going to dissect him. Uh. Some some teams only
Speaker 2: enter the ball on the left side of the court. Well, tonight,
Speaker 2: you're going to end it on the right side.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: So that was the way he made you think and play.
Speaker 2: Uh so you think the game. Yeah, And he always
Speaker 2: says a thinking man's game, mental is the physical as
Speaker 2: forced to one. And you know, if you can't think,
Speaker 2: then you you you got no shot. Again, is playing against.
Speaker 4: Me mental is to physical as far as to one.
Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, I just wanted to make sure it's a
Speaker 2: thinking man's game and you you have to think your
Speaker 2: way through the game.
Speaker 1: And you're gonna have him thinking about that analogy the
Speaker 1: whole Yeah, yeah, show yeah. Two year pit Stock, you
Speaker 1: win a champion national championship in eighty one, dropped twenty
Speaker 1: three versus Sam Perkins and James Worthy over North Carolina.
Speaker 1: What was your favorite on the court moments in college?
Speaker 1: Was it that championship?
Speaker 2: Two favorites? The first favorite was February fourteenth, in Iowa,
Speaker 2: Mike Whitson's return because my freshman year he had back surgery.
Speaker 3: We were ranked number one.
Speaker 2: Whitson goes down, Whitman goes down, Boushie goes down, and
Speaker 2: we like, you know, we faltering right. Woodson comes back
Speaker 2: and that's his first game and it's in Iowa City,
Speaker 2: and this my freshman year and my whole my whole
Speaker 2: time now, you know, playing for coach night. I'm waiting
Speaker 2: for this genius moment, right, I'm waiting for him to
Speaker 2: grab the clipboard, you know, and draw up some stuff.
Speaker 2: And but I ain't seen no clipboard and like, you know,
Speaker 2: I ain't seen the clipboard like since I got there. Right,
Speaker 2: So we down, we down one in Iowa. It was
Speaker 2: Whatdy's first game back, and and we called time out
Speaker 2: and now I'm like, okay, this this is the moments
Speaker 2: up gotta I got, I know, we getting ready to
Speaker 2: draw up play now, right, this was the play he said, Whitson,
Speaker 2: can you make a shot? Well, he said, yeah, I
Speaker 2: knock it down. Coach he said. He called me pee Wee.
Speaker 2: He said, okay, pee Wee, I want you to move
Speaker 2: the ball around. October I want you to set a
Speaker 2: screen for Woodson whitson. I want you to get open
Speaker 2: pee wee. When he gets open, I want you to
Speaker 2: hit it. Woody knocked the shot down. I'm like, on
Speaker 2: the left side, the right side, Well, where where's what'son
Speaker 2: gonna be? I'm scared. I'm like scared. I'm like walking
Speaker 2: down on the floor. I'm like, okay, how we gonna
Speaker 2: get the ball there? Right? He wants you to put
Speaker 2: everybody in place. I'm like, hey man, just all I'm doing.
Speaker 2: So I passed it and I run over there and
Speaker 2: get it. And so I'm waiting for Woody to Woody
Speaker 2: come off to over sets a downscreen. Whiston comes off
Speaker 2: on the left side. I hit him boom and he
Speaker 2: banks it right off the glass. And to me, that
Speaker 2: was the most That was one of the most beautiful
Speaker 2: moments I have experienced because what he recruited me. That
Speaker 2: was my senior year. He had back surgery. You know,
Speaker 2: he's coming back, you know, and so I was like, okay.
Speaker 2: Second best moment was, you know, be North Carolina in
Speaker 2: that final game. So two things happened in that game.
Speaker 2: In the first half, North Carolina got out to a
Speaker 2: good start, and I knew we didn't have the talent
Speaker 2: to play with them right talent for talent, they were
Speaker 2: better James Worthy Sam Perkins. I would that's they back line.
Speaker 2: Worthy was a number one pick. I think Perkins was like,
Speaker 2: you know, five or six, and I wild was like
Speaker 2: ten or something. But North Carolina they played that platoon system,
Speaker 2: so I was just they got up and I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: we just got a hold on fellas, cause five minutes
Speaker 2: they're gonna take Worthy out. They're gonna take Worthy and
Speaker 2: Perkins out. And when they took them out, so that's
Speaker 2: when we was able to come back. But one of
Speaker 2: the biggest plays I thought in that game clocks running down.
Speaker 2: We got the last shot out of the half and
Speaker 2: Whitman's in the in the in the right corner and
Speaker 2: I'm standing there. We're, you know, I'm dribbling the ball,
Speaker 2: trying to you know, make sure like everybody is set
Speaker 2: doing what they're supposed to do, trying to start time
Speaker 2: and women and I make eye contact, and you know,
Speaker 2: we run the clock down, kick it over the Whitmen.
Speaker 3: He knocks down the shot in the in.
Speaker 2: The first half, they gave us crazy momentum going in
Speaker 2: because I think we either went up one or was
Speaker 2: down one. We come back out the third to start
Speaker 2: the second half, and then I take over. So you
Speaker 2: know that, But I thought that shot was one of
Speaker 2: the biggest moments in the game.
Speaker 4: Yeah, nineteen eighty one draft, you go number two overall
Speaker 4: to the Pistons, probably the worst team in the league
Speaker 4: before you got there.
Speaker 5: Well, you knew what she was walking into though, right,
Speaker 5: No I didn't.
Speaker 1: You didn't, he said, No, I didn't.
Speaker 2: I did. Now, you know, when you hear the worst team,
Speaker 2: you know you.
Speaker 3: You don't you have no idea what the worst team?
Speaker 5: That's like?
Speaker 3: You know what that really mean? Right you?
Speaker 2: So, so there was no culture, there was no Now,
Speaker 2: I come from every place I've been, I've won, right,
Speaker 2: and and so there's rules, there's there's there's discipline, there's
Speaker 2: a way of acting, there's a way of being, there's
Speaker 2: a way of doing things, and and so when I
Speaker 2: get to Detroit, those it was like what are we doing? Like,
Speaker 2: how are we going to win? That's all I'm trying
Speaker 2: to figure out is how are we going to win?
Speaker 2: And so I had to go to school, right, and
Speaker 2: where I went to school, I went to the Lakers school,
Speaker 2: and I went to the Celtics school, so I started
Speaker 2: following them around. Fortunately enough for me, Magic Johnson, who
Speaker 2: had just come off winning the NBA Championship and being
Speaker 2: the MVP of the championship game. Now he like, he's like,
Speaker 2: come on, man, you with me? And I'm like, really,
Speaker 2: I'm with you? Like yeah, So so now I'm watching
Speaker 2: the Lakers. I'm watching him, and I'm watching how they train,
Speaker 2: how they practice, how they come together. Kevin McHale and
Speaker 2: I were friends, you know, since high school, played on
Speaker 2: the PanAm team together. So now I get to you know,
Speaker 2: I watch how Boston do things. mL Car you know,
Speaker 2: still talk with him today, you know Maxwell. I mean,
Speaker 2: so the Celtics and the Lakers really like, let me
Speaker 2: like in the locker room. You look at all they
Speaker 2: championship celebrations in the eighties. You'll see Isaiah Thomas in
Speaker 2: them locker rooms watching them celebrate, right, you know, on
Speaker 2: their exit meetings. I'm with Magic at the exit meetings,
Speaker 2: you know when they lost to Boston in the room
Speaker 2: with in the fucking room, right, I'm missing to pat Riley,
Speaker 2: you know, give this thing. Jerry West, who's stilled my
Speaker 2: man today, right, Jerry West. They let me in to
Speaker 2: the the sanctuary. I was one of them, right, and
Speaker 2: and so I learned and and so and learning. Not
Speaker 2: only did it make me better, but I was able
Speaker 2: to bring some things back to the Pistons in terms of, hey,
Speaker 2: if we want to win in this league, this is
Speaker 2: what it looks say that again, what it looked like, right,
Speaker 2: because we had no idea.
Speaker 3: So so it's like, okay, how.
Speaker 2: Are you going to win in this league? You you
Speaker 2: got to learn, You got to get educated, right, And
Speaker 2: and they let me in. And so so I'm there
Speaker 2: when Magic Johnson dribbled out the shot clock and they
Speaker 2: calling him Tragic Johnson, right, And I'm in his hotel room,
Speaker 2: me Mark and this dude laying on the floor balling,
Speaker 2: I mean just hurt frying, uh you know, just you
Speaker 2: know that kind of crying, right, And and we stayed
Speaker 2: up with him until you know, bus was leaving at
Speaker 2: five five thirty in the morning, and he just laying
Speaker 2: on the floor, just balling. Right, Come down to escalate it,
Speaker 2: get on the bus, go back to La So I
Speaker 2: get a chance to watch all that. I get a
Speaker 2: chance to see James Worthy, right, take the ball out
Speaker 2: on the sideline and bound it. Gerald Henderson steals it, right,
Speaker 2: he goes lazy. So I get to see all their heartbreak,
Speaker 2: but also get to see that bounce back. I get
Speaker 2: to see that bounce back. Right, and so with magic loss.
Speaker 2: Right Now, that summer, we train and we're working out,
Speaker 2: and that dude shot me with so many bulls, right,
Speaker 2: and finally I just had to say, hey, look man,
Speaker 2: I'm not Larry Bird. You gotta cut this shit out. Fuck.
Speaker 2: But I mean he was training so hard and so
Speaker 2: now Mark, and now we're going through all all stuff.
Speaker 2: Right that summer, that dude shot maybe a thousand free
Speaker 2: throws a day, and I'm like, right, are you.
Speaker 3: So so many free throws?
Speaker 2: Like come on, man, you know, work on your jump shot.
Speaker 3: You know, we gotta get your j right now, that dude.
Speaker 2: Went from being an eighty three eighty four percent jumped
Speaker 2: to ninety. Wow, jumped to ninety percent from the fire line,
Speaker 2: then became the MVP of the league.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: So so watching that and learning that. So when you say,
Speaker 2: now the Detroit Pistons, so we didn't have no culture,
Speaker 2: So what did I do? Right, It's like Okay, this
Speaker 2: is who we are. We need an identity. This is
Speaker 2: who we're going to become. This is how we're gonna dress.
Speaker 2: This is how we're gonna talk. This is how we're
Speaker 2: gonna look right, and and then bringing some stuff from
Speaker 2: the neighborhood. Right, you know that that that ten point program, right,
Speaker 2: you know it's it's like we're gonna we're gonna still
Speaker 2: listen to our teams.
Speaker 3: Right, There's gonna be some rules.
Speaker 2: This is how we're gonna follow this, how we're gonna act, This,
Speaker 2: how we're gonna march, is how we're gonna be. This
Speaker 2: is who we are in this NBA league and still today,
Speaker 2: this is who we are.
Speaker 3: This is what we do now.
Speaker 2: If we didn't establish that that culture, that language, that
Speaker 2: belief system, those values, you know, we we didn't have
Speaker 2: the type of talent that La had. We didn't have
Speaker 2: the type of talent that Boston had, but we had
Speaker 2: a belief system that was so strong that this is
Speaker 2: gonna mess you up when I say this. Bill Lambier
Speaker 2: believed that he can compete every single night against Kareem
Speaker 2: obture your boss a strong belief. Come on, work with me,
Speaker 2: work with you think thinks about what I just said. Yeah,
Speaker 2: think about what I just said. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: I mean it's like that that in itself, right, Lambbier
Speaker 2: walking out on the floor with the belief in understanding
Speaker 2: that number thirty three in purple or number thirty three
Speaker 2: in gold.
Speaker 3: If I do what I'm supposed to do, I can
Speaker 3: beat you.
Speaker 2: M hmm.
Speaker 5: Nobody in the world would agree.
Speaker 2: With him, and they didn't. They didn't that way. They
Speaker 2: still don't believe it. I know. I'm just glad the
Speaker 2: film Don't Lie, Film Don't Lie.
Speaker 4: We just had Barkley on and Barkley was talking about
Speaker 4: around the time you come there, how Bird Magic saved
Speaker 4: the league.
Speaker 5: Do you agree with that?
Speaker 3: I think Bird and Magic.
Speaker 2: Saved the league, and I think the league took off
Speaker 2: when the Detroit Pistons showed up on the scene. I
Speaker 2: think Bird and Magic. You know what the NBA was
Speaker 2: coming out of in the seventies, and how the United
Speaker 2: States was, I mean, we have to talk about that now,
Speaker 2: how the United States was for black men in the seventies,
Speaker 2: and then Bird and Magic being on the stage in
Speaker 2: the early eighties coming out of college, and then you know,
Speaker 2: playing that you know that game again, Magic come to
Speaker 2: La Berg, going to Boston. You know, they walked into culture,
Speaker 2: they walked into a foundation, they walked into a way
Speaker 2: of being, they walked into winning. They didn't have to,
Speaker 2: you know, get a piece of paper and go to
Speaker 2: school and get educated. Right, they walked into it. Right now,
Speaker 2: that help. But what the ratings say and what the
Speaker 2: numbers say when the league took off is when the
Speaker 2: bad boys from the Detroit Pistons showed up. Because we
Speaker 2: showed up with a totally different kind of crowd.
Speaker 3: We we had, you.
Speaker 2: Know, people from all different walks of life, and we
Speaker 2: started putting fifty sixty thousand people in the Silver Dome.
Speaker 3: And then we had three rivalries.
Speaker 2: I think we're the only team that only had three rivalries,
Speaker 2: the Lakers, the Celtics, and the Bulls. Right, so every
Speaker 2: time we played, everywhere we moved, right, it was it
Speaker 2: was different. And then we didn't understand, well, we didn't know.
Speaker 2: So we met a gentleman by the name of Mike
Speaker 2: Ornstein with the La Raiders or the Oakland Raiders at
Speaker 2: that time what they call cross marketing today, We didn't
Speaker 2: know there was such a term as cross marketing. But
Speaker 2: all connection with the Oakland Raiders. Then let us start
Speaker 2: changing all colors. So we went from the red, white
Speaker 2: and blue to the silver and black, and then we
Speaker 2: had a second jersey, We had a second uniform, you know,
Speaker 2: and the NBA really didn't own any of that. So
Speaker 2: when we walked off the stage and the Bulls walked
Speaker 2: on the stage, that's when y'all got the shooting jerseys.
Speaker 2: That's when they started changing, you know, the different colored
Speaker 2: uniforms and everything else. But the Pistons started all that.
Speaker 2: So the highest rate of games in the eighties Pistons
Speaker 2: against Celtics, Pistons against Lakers, Pistons against Bulls, and they
Speaker 2: all have one thing in common. That's a Detroit Pistons set,
Speaker 2: attitude and energy. Y'all brough first NBA game thirty one
Speaker 2: and eleven. Who crazy? First game thirty one eleven? Geez,
Speaker 2: you make the All Star Game as your rookie year too,
Speaker 2: clearly the leader of your team. Did that come to
Speaker 2: you naturally or like when you when you showed up
Speaker 2: they knew you was leader?
Speaker 5: Or did you have to fight for that?
Speaker 2: I never thought of myself as the leader. I never
Speaker 2: thought of myself as the captain. It's you know, leadership
Speaker 2: is given. You never walk into a room and be like,
Speaker 2: I'm the leader.
Speaker 3: You know it.
Speaker 2: They vote on it. You know who's going to be
Speaker 2: the captain. Okay, you can be the captain. And I
Speaker 2: was selected the captain and the leader only because they
Speaker 2: trust me, right, and and that type of trust is earned,
Speaker 2: and then you have to honor it too. Like that means, yeah,
Speaker 2: that means you can't go out when everybody else is
Speaker 2: going out there, right, you can't. I mean I don't
Speaker 2: know I meant that much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't.
Speaker 2: You can't do the things everybody else is doing it
Speaker 2: because you know that there's a certain amount of trust
Speaker 2: and respect that goes along with that. So that that
Speaker 2: first game against Milwaukee, I'm playing against you know, not
Speaker 2: Quinn Buckner. I'm playing against him. It's my first time
Speaker 2: playing against him. You know that dude was just in
Speaker 2: my house. He went undefeated. He went undefeated in high
Speaker 2: school and undefeated in college. Still the last undefeated team
Speaker 2: right now. I'm playing against him and he like, hey, junior,
Speaker 2: how you doing. I'm like, oh, this is gonna be
Speaker 2: a bad night, right, And and so I remember like
Speaker 2: the first two three plays, I get buy them and
Speaker 2: I go down the lane. I go down the lane
Speaker 2: and make a layup, come back down the lane again,
Speaker 2: and Bob Lanier literally.
Speaker 3: I'm up in the air like.
Speaker 2: This, and he goes, caught you in the air, caught
Speaker 2: me in the air and set me down and said, look,
Speaker 2: don't come down here no more. I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: my jump shot got real good because when he because
Speaker 2: when he called me, it wasn't you know, when them
Speaker 2: guys hit you right, It wasn't like a gentle womb,
Speaker 2: you know. It was like and they put that force
Speaker 2: behind him, and yeah, you feel that, right, dude? Set
Speaker 2: me down, man, And you know, but I had a
Speaker 2: good game that night, but I was looking forward to
Speaker 2: the next night. See you're talking about that thirty one
Speaker 2: and eleven the next night. Then we come home to
Speaker 2: play the Chicago Bulls and I dropped thirty in that game.
Speaker 3: Now that's the game that I really like, because.
Speaker 2: Not all my boys, everybody else, I mean everybody there.
Speaker 3: You know Red Magic.
Speaker 1: That trip from Chicago to Boston. How long is that trip?
Speaker 1: Bus her car from Chicago to Detroit. Excuse that.
Speaker 3: It's four hours and it's three and a half.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jack can get there. Three yeah, yeah, so straight
Speaker 2: down ninety four. So now you know, we go to Chicago,
Speaker 2: like I say, Red Magic One. All my brothers nim there,
Speaker 2: you know, all I mean everybody up in the stands.
Speaker 2: You know, my my mom and my my aunt. Like
Speaker 2: back then they didn't have them, the metal detectors. So
Speaker 2: my mom she believed in the second Amendment. Now she.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and my aunt got a switch blade.
Speaker 2: She carried a switch blade. And you and and I
Speaker 2: don't know people remember this, but you know, like she
Speaker 2: would be sitting there talking, right, and you remember trick.
Speaker 2: They could do tricks with their switch plade, you know,
Speaker 2: and she likes, you know, be talking to you and
Speaker 2: like troiling it all around and nice with it and
Speaker 2: close it up on you when they finished.
Speaker 3: And so they would bring food to the game.
Speaker 2: So they bringing their chicken and everything, and you know,
Speaker 2: and so and I'll never forget so we Ricky Sobers
Speaker 2: was the guard then one number fourteen Tcky Sobers play
Speaker 2: at UNLV right and and so we you know, I'm
Speaker 2: going through my stuff. I went between my legs and
Speaker 2: that dude like hit me so hard, damn right, you know,
Speaker 2: I folded up right because back then, you know, they
Speaker 2: didn't like when you try to show them off. Like
Speaker 2: now you can just go through your legs and everything
Speaker 2: else for a long time. Like then they're standing up
Speaker 2: and so I say, hey, man, don't hit me like
Speaker 2: that no more. You know what you're gonna do a
Speaker 2: little punk? I said, okay, And so you see all
Speaker 2: them people sitting up there, so you live here, So
Speaker 2: you hit me like that one more time, you won't
Speaker 2: live here no more. Straight up. That's simple. And you
Speaker 2: know we had a good game, you know, whin yeah,
Speaker 2: I up.
Speaker 1: The your Jordan INSS League at the time. The East
Speaker 1: has loaded yourself, m J Bird, Dominique, Moses Malone, Charles Barkley,
Speaker 1: doctor J. What was the Eastern Conference back in the
Speaker 1: middle of the eighties, Like every night.
Speaker 2: You see, I just took a simple war. It's all
Speaker 2: them names you just named off. I'm like Chevy, I'm
Speaker 2: sweating now. Like man, Philadelphia was so good back then,
Speaker 2: Mo Cheeks, Andrew Tony, doctor J, Moses Malone, Bobby Jones.
Speaker 2: They don't get enough credit for what they was doing
Speaker 2: in the eighties. Back then. I mean that team was
Speaker 2: good and then it got Barkley, right, it just unfair, right,
Speaker 2: Bird McHale Parish, you know, Milwaukee, that Milwaukee team was
Speaker 2: loaded with Marcus Johnson and all them, so we you know,
Speaker 2: it was it was hell, you know up in there.
Speaker 2: But what what we had and what we were developing
Speaker 2: was different than all the other teams, right, all those
Speaker 2: teams you just named. What we was developing was identity, culture,
Speaker 2: belief systems. You know, understand and you know those you know,
Speaker 2: those things that you carry with you for the rest
Speaker 2: of your life. Right, that's what we was building as
Speaker 2: a team. And talent wise, all those people that you
Speaker 2: just named, we didn't have that kind of talent. But
Speaker 2: what we could do is we could outscheme you and
Speaker 2: we can adhere to a game plan and concentrate and
Speaker 2: do it for two and a half hours. Most teams,
Speaker 2: most players, they can't. They can't concentrate for two and
Speaker 2: a half hours. And so when when Jordan came in,
Speaker 2: you know in eighty four eighty five, right, you know,
Speaker 2: he was mega talented, and not only was he mega talented,
Speaker 2: but we we had never seen an athlete like that.
Speaker 2: You got to remember, like in the NBA at that time,
Speaker 2: you know, doctor j still was the best athlete. And
Speaker 2: when Jordan came in younger than doctor J, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: he's the next doctor j And you know why nobody
Speaker 2: jumping from the fire line and hanging in the air
Speaker 2: and doing all the stuff around the rim that he
Speaker 2: was doing. Nobody, you didn't have athletes like that, So
Speaker 2: he was. He was a fascinating watch. So do Bars
Speaker 2: and that, right, you know, we were we would be
Speaker 2: I'll never forget every time Chicago played, you know, Joe
Speaker 2: and I would be on the phone and and we'd
Speaker 2: be talking because we gotta we got to play against him, right,
Speaker 2: And they were playing New Jersey in Chicago, and Joe
Speaker 2: and I, you know, we were talking and and Jordan
Speaker 2: came down on the left side, caught on the left wing,
Speaker 2: went through a couple of dribbles, and then he took
Speaker 2: off on.
Speaker 3: The left box. That dude floated all the way to
Speaker 3: the right.
Speaker 2: Box and then laid it up on the other side.
Speaker 2: And that's where to god, Joe and I on the
Speaker 2: phone and for about five minutes, man, it was just
Speaker 2: dead silence, silent. Did we just see Yeah? And then
Speaker 2: all I'm saying it was like practice tomorrow we got
Speaker 2: to deal with I mean.
Speaker 3: That dude jumped from the left box.
Speaker 2: And was up in the air and went all the
Speaker 2: way over to the right box and laid it up.
Speaker 2: It was like.
Speaker 1: We had Magic on the show at the end of
Speaker 1: December and your name came up, and Magic was talking
Speaker 1: about what you and him went through and how you
Speaker 1: guys were able to sit down and patch.
Speaker 5: It up, which is beautiful, by the way, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Everyone was big fans of that. But he also said
Speaker 1: he would like to see you and Mike patch it up.
Speaker 1: You called me after that and we had a conversation
Speaker 1: on the phone about what was going to care to
Speaker 1: share any of that?
Speaker 3: Man, You know, I just want some people to be honest.
Speaker 2: I got I got no problem sitting down talking with
Speaker 2: anybody right. And as you can see, you know I I'm.
Speaker 5: Your open book.
Speaker 3: You know I live with love.
Speaker 2: Peace, truth, you know, honesty, courage, I'm you know, I
Speaker 2: stand on my square.
Speaker 3: I'm upright.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm independent, and I sit in any chair
Speaker 2: and I talk to anybody right. But some people don't.
Speaker 2: They ain't been telling the truth right now anywhere, anytime publicly.
Speaker 2: I don't don't call me behind the scenes, apologizing or
Speaker 2: asking your friends to apologize. Right, you got on national
Speaker 2: television and you call me an asshole, and then you
Speaker 2: said you hated me.
Speaker 3: You said that on national television.
Speaker 2: Now if you didn't mean it, get on national television
Speaker 2: say that and apologize for it. Now if you miss
Speaker 2: let it ride as it is. But so I called
Speaker 2: you in that same day. You know who I call.
Speaker 2: I call Magic Johnson. Magic was on the plane. There
Speaker 2: was shooting commercial in Atlanta. Him, Sam Jackson, everybody else
Speaker 2: we were standing in the Four Seasons Hotel. We missed
Speaker 2: each other, right because he said he had to go,
Speaker 2: so he on the plane, right. I called him up.
Speaker 2: Magic didn't mention Michael Jordan. All right, So I'm still waiting.
Speaker 2: You know, everybody say this stuff publicly, right, Hey, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna do this. I'm gonna do this some this all right. Well,
Speaker 2: I'm the type of guy. I sit here, I talked
Speaker 2: to you, I talk to you. It ain't a person
Speaker 2: in this United States of America that I'm not willing
Speaker 2: to sit down and have a conversation with and break
Speaker 2: bread with. But if you line and throwing stones from
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, okay, that's you. But if you honest
Speaker 2: and you upright on your square, I'm willing to deal with. Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, so.
Speaker 3: That's all I know. Now where do we go from here?
Speaker 1: I mean, you told me something to mean you have
Speaker 1: family that had stayed with him, and say at one.
Speaker 2: Point absolutely eight when when Jordan first came to Chicago.
Speaker 2: First of all, we were fans of his and to
Speaker 2: some extent still fans of his. My family, his family.
Speaker 2: Not only did they socialize, hang out, but as I said,
Speaker 2: you know, I I had a little nephew that lived
Speaker 2: with him, and and everybody's still cool, right, Ain't no,
Speaker 2: ain't no hate for Jordan. We just want some realness, right,
Speaker 2: just you know, like I said, you you got on
Speaker 2: national television and ain't nobody, ain't nobody nowhere has ever
Speaker 2: got on national television and called me an asshole and
Speaker 2: then publicly said you hate me. I ain't heard that
Speaker 2: from you. I ain't heard that from you. I ain't
Speaker 2: heard that from no NBA player. And so I'm and
Speaker 2: by the way, all them years that you supposedly hated me,
Speaker 2: you voted for me to be the president of your union.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I've seen a lot of pictures of
Speaker 4: All Star Games and y'all laughing a joke and it
Speaker 4: didn't look like, hey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just saying like, you know, if that you
Speaker 2: know now now maybe you felt like that privately and
Speaker 2: I didn't know, but now that I do know. And
Speaker 2: by the way, if you didn't mean it that way,
Speaker 2: then publicly say it. Don't privately say it. You know, magic,
Speaker 2: we don't need a private conversation. This man did this
Speaker 2: on national television internationally. I have to answer this question
Speaker 2: right in every interview that I sit down and do
Speaker 2: you asking me this question right? So now now I'm
Speaker 2: the one who's looking like, oh, why are you talking
Speaker 2: about Jordan? Why are you saying it? When you to
Speaker 2: put that out there? And now you at home or
Speaker 2: on your golf course or doing whatever you do, and
Speaker 2: now I got to answer this BS question. So if
Speaker 2: you mad enough, and you and you and you, if
Speaker 2: you meant it, leave it as it is. But if
Speaker 2: you didn't mean it, then come out and clean it
Speaker 2: up the same way it came out, same way it
Speaker 2: came out with the same intensity.
Speaker 5: You gotta respect that though.
Speaker 2: That's why I stay that.
Speaker 4: I mean because if the shoe was on the foot,
Speaker 4: I know I've been disrespected a lot of if somebody
Speaker 4: disrespected me on TV during the game, but also at
Speaker 4: the end of the game, they decided.
Speaker 5: You know what, I remember, I said that, let me
Speaker 5: clear this up.
Speaker 4: If we get off air, I gotta respect that.
Speaker 5: I can't hold it.
Speaker 4: I can't be mad at him no more because he
Speaker 4: corrected himself.
Speaker 2: Now you you you said, Magic and I sat down
Speaker 2: and squashed whatever we had publicly publicly. Magic Johnson apologized.
Speaker 2: He said, I'm sorry if I hurt you. When I
Speaker 2: hurt you, I didn't mean that. I'm good with that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I gotta accept that and we move on. But if
Speaker 2: you're gonna let this linger out here in this basketball
Speaker 2: world and you got everybody else talking, but you ain't
Speaker 2: saying nothing. Now, if you meant it, stand on it,
Speaker 2: stand on it.
Speaker 3: But if you didn't mean it, clean it up.
Speaker 1: You mentioned, Uh, you know, obviously there's no secret that
Speaker 1: you and Magic were best of friends at one point,
Speaker 1: And what did it mean to you, to you guys
Speaker 1: to be able to sit down and clear that air.
Speaker 2: For you, it meant a lot, not only to me,
Speaker 2: but we didn't know, and I didn't know how much
Speaker 2: it would mean to all of us, to the world.
Speaker 2: I had no idea, you know, because when you when
Speaker 2: you're going through that, you're just thinking about yourself. You're
Speaker 2: not thinking about really how it's affecting other people. And
Speaker 2: I just had the same thing happened with Karl Malone
Speaker 2: and I. Right, and by way, thank you Ken, you
Speaker 2: let you sacking off strong, But you don't realize what
Speaker 2: the other person is carrying. Right, You're feeling, you know,
Speaker 2: yourself and your grief and you're hurt, right, But the
Speaker 2: other person who's carrying that guilt, when you have the
Speaker 2: opportunity and you can relieve them of that, not knowing
Speaker 2: that that's how much they carrying.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 2: That that that was a powerful moment not only for
Speaker 2: he and I, but it was a powerful moment for
Speaker 2: the world, which we didn't know. So it's like two
Speaker 2: moments we've had that we didn't realize what we was
Speaker 2: really doing. That ended up changing a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2: Like when he and I like first hugged and kissed, right, ah,
Speaker 2: oh you know what the they it's like I can't
Speaker 2: I can't meet my brother and give him a handshake.
Speaker 2: Whenever I met family, it was always an embrace, right,
Speaker 2: when we did that in the eighties, two men, right,
Speaker 2: black masculinity, you know, and being called in a question
Speaker 2: you're not supposed to you know, you're supposed to have this,
Speaker 2: you know, this toughness about you and all this stuff.
Speaker 3: Well, when we.
Speaker 2: Broke down that barrier, we didn't realize what we had
Speaker 2: really done. Now when we saw each other today, first
Speaker 2: thing we did we hug you.
Speaker 5: I can wait to hug you when I see you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me And and then then then we hugged
Speaker 2: for a minute because I wanted to feel you, right.
Speaker 2: And but back then that was so controversial. Right now,
Speaker 2: us coming together forgiven compassion, love, friendship, right, it's another
Speaker 2: powerful moment, not knowing that that's what we were doing, right,
Speaker 2: you know. So, and I'm glad that he and I
Speaker 2: got to share that.
Speaker 1: I mean, you mentioned and obviously this is going to
Speaker 1: come up to You mentioned you got a chance to
Speaker 1: sit down.
Speaker 2: With Carl at this last All Star in Utah.
Speaker 1: What did you know? How did that go?
Speaker 2: Man?
Speaker 3: For years, Man, I wanted to do something to Carl Man.
Speaker 2: You know you mentioned some people might have met.
Speaker 1: But Kmart told this story about how he was watching
Speaker 1: that game on TV when he was a youngster and
Speaker 1: out him back for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm saying thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what I'm saying, so you said thank you for
Speaker 1: people might be car.
Speaker 2: But let me but let me say, let me say
Speaker 2: why I said thank you, and then let me let
Speaker 2: me go further with that, because for years, that dude
Speaker 2: put a mark on me. Man, And and for years
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm gonna get my mark back. You know,
Speaker 2: you put a scar on me, and get my scar back,
Speaker 2: and I get my scar back.
Speaker 3: We even but you know, my.
Speaker 2: Back. But and and so fast forward, right, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm carrying this around for years, for years. Last dance
Speaker 2: come out and and you know, every you know, the
Speaker 2: narrative was, you know, everybody hated Isaiah. You know, nobody
Speaker 2: wanted him around, nobody wanted to be a part of
Speaker 2: it so far, and so so that was what's being played.
Speaker 2: So now on the background, I'm getting calls from everybody.
Speaker 2: I'm getting calls from the Shock Hit, the Chicago Bulls
Speaker 2: team teammates, people in the Chicago Bulls front office. I'm
Speaker 2: getting calls from people who was on the Dream Team saying.
Speaker 3: Hey, man, that ain't me. You know how I feel
Speaker 3: about you.
Speaker 2: Okay, cool, they don't get called from Carl. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: and he say, hey man, I and this was years ago,
Speaker 2: say hey man, I just want to tell you, like,
Speaker 2: you know, I hear all this stuff about the Dream Team.
Speaker 3: You know, I call talk.
Speaker 2: I'm a man, I'm a real man. I don't you know.
Speaker 2: I ain't hiding behind nothing. You know, I didn't have
Speaker 2: nothing to do with that. You're not making the team.
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, you know, I'm speaking for Stockton.
Speaker 2: Then I we And he said this on camera. He said,
Speaker 2: if there was a secret meeting me and Stockedon, wasn't
Speaker 2: a part of those secret meeting trying to keep you
Speaker 2: off the team? That wasn't us. So now you know
Speaker 2: my next question is, you know, so man, why you
Speaker 2: hit me like that? And this is what I have
Speaker 2: to respect. And and Kenyon, I hope you can respect
Speaker 2: this too, brother, because and and you know, and all
Speaker 2: my people in Chicago and in Detroit everywhere. I hope
Speaker 2: y'all can respect this about Karl Malung because what he
Speaker 2: said was, Hey, look, I I meant to hit you.
Speaker 2: That's how we played. You come down the lane. You're
Speaker 2: gonna you're gonna get some physicality. So I meant to
Speaker 2: do it, he said, But I but I didn't mean
Speaker 2: to do that. And I apologize because I didn't mean
Speaker 2: to do that. Hey, I have to accept that, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Because that now, if he would
Speaker 2: have been like, I'm a tough guy. You know, that's
Speaker 2: how we play, and yeah, I'm gonna lay you out,
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. But at the same time, now, now
Speaker 2: he gets emotional and he started crying. And you know
Speaker 2: when people start crying, Now you crying, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5: So you never know what people dealing with, bro.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I was only looking at it from
Speaker 2: my point of view. I never knew the type of
Speaker 2: guilt that he was walking around carrying. And so by
Speaker 2: me saying, hey man, it's okay, I love you brother,
Speaker 2: were good man, he said, you just took the whole
Speaker 2: weight off my shoulder. Now, I never knew he was
Speaker 2: walking around with waight. I just thought he was walking
Speaker 2: around like, yeah, I'm a tough dude. Look what I
Speaker 2: did to you and and somebody else I'm gonna do.
Speaker 2: But that ain't the way he was thinking. And when
Speaker 2: he said, yeah, I meant to hit you, but I
Speaker 2: didn't mean to do that. Now, that last part I
Speaker 2: got to accept, right, And that's you know that that
Speaker 2: was real. So I respect that.
Speaker 4: Mid eighties eighties you start winning, start going on the role.
Speaker 5: What clicked.
Speaker 2: We became one, everybody on the same page. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And I don't care who you sit in this chair.
Speaker 2: If he's a piston, he gonna tell the same story.
Speaker 2: He's gonna act the same way. He's gonna carry himself
Speaker 2: the same way. We still got a group chat, right.
Speaker 2: John said that said that no, no, no, this this
Speaker 2: this is who we are from day one. Right, That's
Speaker 2: what clicked. It wasn't like we became better basketball players.
Speaker 2: We became like this as opposed to being five individuals.
Speaker 2: Right now punches more pop than the slapt all the time.
Speaker 2: Bruce Lee talked to about and when you when you
Speaker 2: put some when you put some energy in there behind
Speaker 2: that thing. And that's what we was walking up in
Speaker 2: there with, right, all force. Right, teams had no they
Speaker 2: had no shot, right because all all togetherness, all force,
Speaker 2: it was intimidating. So when you say what made it
Speaker 2: come together is those sacrifices, those individual sacrifices that we
Speaker 2: all was making that community that communication, that crying, that breakdown,
Speaker 2: those heartaches, you know, all that that that that staying
Speaker 2: together and then you you become one. And when we
Speaker 2: became one, we we're probably we're definitely the most misunderstood
Speaker 2: team that's ever played in the NBA. And we're the
Speaker 2: most misunderstood team that's ever played in the NBA. And
Speaker 2: I say team because we were a team. The NBA,
Speaker 2: you know, wants to promote individuals. You know, my whole team,
Speaker 2: you know my you know, you know, our team to
Speaker 2: the ninth tenth maon first and last name. Yes, our team, right,
Speaker 2: And that's how we promoted ourselves, right, The NBA wanted
Speaker 2: to give you the individual were like, nah, we coming
Speaker 2: to the captains mean, we came to the captains meeting
Speaker 2: one time, and our whole team came to the captain meeting.
Speaker 2: That's right. And and so that that type of togetherness,
Speaker 2: that type of chemistry. Now, these are the facts our
Speaker 2: first championship in eighty nine because they didn't understand us,
Speaker 2: and we got the best record in the league. But
Speaker 2: we don't have one all pro on All Team. I
Speaker 2: didn't make first team, I didn't make second team, I
Speaker 2: didn't make third team. Joe didn't make first team, second
Speaker 2: team or thirteen. Robin didn't make first team, second team
Speaker 2: or third team. Lambiard didn't make first Now we got
Speaker 2: the best record in the league, and we swept the Lakers, right,
Speaker 2: And they say the Lakers was hurt, but they don't
Speaker 2: never say I was hurt when they beat us. Right.
Speaker 2: And the other point I want to make is the
Speaker 2: sacrifices in terms of team. Not only did we not
Speaker 2: have anybody make All Pro, but nobody averaged twenty points
Speaker 2: a game. I led with nineteen. This one had eighteen.
Speaker 2: Two has seventeen, this one half fifteen. It's had their balance.
Speaker 2: If we were a team who you're going to you're
Speaker 2: gonna stop one night, I get thirty five right Game
Speaker 2: five to go to the to the to beat Boston.
Speaker 2: The year before, I had thrown the ball away come
Speaker 2: back in eighty eight week back in game five again, Junior,
Speaker 2: what you're gonna do?
Speaker 3: I got magic in my mind.
Speaker 2: I got James Worthy in my mind because I have
Speaker 2: seen them get up, come back to that Game five,
Speaker 2: A Game five in Boston, I dropped thirty five, thirty six,
Speaker 2: had like a great game come back. Game six on
Speaker 2: the close out game. You know what I mean points
Speaker 2: I scored in the close our game nine. You know
Speaker 2: who got hot? Benny the mic away Bennie.
Speaker 3: Bennie got hot. It was like, all right, go go Now.
Speaker 2: If we was playing analytics basketball and playing selfish basketball, Hey.
Speaker 3: Man, I got to get my twenty.
Speaker 2: I gotta keep my average up right, right, So that
Speaker 2: balance that you talk about. We can't beat the Lakers
Speaker 2: in the Celtics individually, but our team can we beat
Speaker 2: the team?
Speaker 3: Hell yeah?
Speaker 4: A lot of people say Boston Celtics, the team you
Speaker 4: played against, was the probably the most fundamentally sound team
Speaker 4: ever to play in the NBA. You was able to
Speaker 4: battle with them. How good were they? They were?
Speaker 2: That?
Speaker 3: They were that.
Speaker 2: Not only were they that, but they were so smart.
Speaker 2: I mean Walton Bird with Kale Parish, change Dennis Johnson.
Speaker 2: At one point in time, they had Nate Archibald, Scott Webman.
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean they were just loaded with talent
Speaker 2: but extremely smart. In one year, they went forty and
Speaker 2: one at home. God damn sit how about that? It
Speaker 2: went forty and one at home. That's how good they were. Now,
Speaker 2: now this is how good we were. Okay, arguably they say,
Speaker 2: that's one of the best teams to ever play in
Speaker 2: the NBA, if not the best one season that was
Speaker 2: eighty eighty six, eighty seven, Right, and then the Lakers,
Speaker 2: Right they you know one and two, those are the
Speaker 2: two best teams they say they ever played.
Speaker 3: Well, that's who we.
Speaker 2: Beat, Random both down.
Speaker 3: That's who we beat.
Speaker 2: Random both down.
Speaker 3: That's how good we were.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know, like like real talk now, like
Speaker 4: you say, y'all the only ones that beat all three
Speaker 4: of them, MJ, Magic and Bird.
Speaker 5: Name somebody else who beat all three y'all all three of.
Speaker 3: Them, and let me let me put enough something to it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: let me add some to it.
Speaker 2: When we beat them, they were all m vps of
Speaker 2: the league. Magic was MVP of the league. Jordan was
Speaker 2: MVP of the league. Bird was MVP of the league
Speaker 2: when we beat him. Hold that.
Speaker 5: It is right there. Give me give me a little
Speaker 5: bit more about the l veto Larry bird Man. Give
Speaker 5: me a story man by lb Man.
Speaker 2: So I don't know if people, I don't know how
Speaker 2: this is going to play with America.
Speaker 3: Let me just tell you what this dude told me
Speaker 3: one time, right.
Speaker 2: Now, all back line, at one time, it was Kelly Trapuko,
Speaker 2: Bill Lambert, Kim Benson, three white.
Speaker 5: Dudes, two of might have heard of.
Speaker 2: All right. So we walk out on the court and
Speaker 2: he said who guarded me? And I said, well, hey,
Speaker 2: you know we both from Indiana. We talking stuff. Me
Speaker 2: and his mom had a close relationship in college.
Speaker 3: His mom would write me like notes.
Speaker 2: Was even write me notes like when I was in
Speaker 2: the pros, like you know, good luck everything else. Right,
Speaker 2: So Larry's always called me cheesy, right, He's like, cheesy
Speaker 2: who guarded me? And I was like, you know, I
Speaker 2: got Kelly, got limb I got I got Benson. He's like,
Speaker 2: you ain't got no brothers like you. He's like, you
Speaker 2: disrespecting me. That's what he said.
Speaker 3: That's exactly what he said.
Speaker 2: He said, hey, man, you keep putting no white dude
Speaker 2: on me? Better straight disrespect right, he said, don't put
Speaker 2: no white dude on me. So check this out. So
Speaker 2: the next year we come back, I said, I got
Speaker 2: somebody for your ass. Right, who you got?
Speaker 3: I said, Rob?
Speaker 2: He's okay, he's a little better, he said, but don't
Speaker 2: never put no white dude on me because that is disrespectful. Okay,
Speaker 2: Now I don't know how America gonna feel about that?
Speaker 2: All right?
Speaker 3: But I think he said in his Sports Illustrated too.
Speaker 3: You can go get the quote I've heard.
Speaker 4: I heard other people talk about lad Bird and I
Speaker 4: had conversations with people like John Sally and he said
Speaker 4: the same thing.
Speaker 2: He was black. Yeah, I was like, man, he walked
Speaker 2: on the court, he was black straight, Hey man, but
Speaker 2: that's who we played with you, that's what I heard.
Speaker 2: He played with the garbage So the garbage truck workers in.
Speaker 3: The story is in French lick.
Speaker 2: You know, he he grew up, you know him and
Speaker 2: Quinn Buckner, right, you know, so he grew up. You know,
Speaker 2: even though French lick. You know that's that's kind of Larry.
Speaker 2: You know, he he ain't in all that right, he like.
Speaker 5: You know, he did his own thing.
Speaker 2: But you better put somebody on me that sin and yeah,
Speaker 2: he ain't got no melon. He can't guard me.
Speaker 3: You can't guard me that you disrespected my game. And
Speaker 3: even we got some meling.
Speaker 2: He gonna have a long night.
Speaker 4: But you know what though, but you know what, though,
Speaker 4: I know he walked out on the court one time.
Speaker 4: Somebody said, look at this white boy, and he can't
Speaker 4: guard me and Larry served him, you know, so I'm
Speaker 4: pretty sure he heard that before.
Speaker 3: And they they used to talk so much trash man.
Speaker 2: So I remember we were playing them in the elimination
Speaker 2: game in Joe Louis Arena, and you know, end of
Speaker 2: the game, they up like eight or nine, they don't
Speaker 2: won the series, and you're gonna try to take that
Speaker 2: last shot, right and Michael said, I hope you make
Speaker 2: this last shot because it's your last one.
Speaker 3: Other season, while I'm in the air.
Speaker 2: Bit air, damn clang, I missed it, you know. But
Speaker 2: they used to talk so much trash man. And if
Speaker 2: you go back and you watch that the Lakers Celtic documentary,
Speaker 2: you will see how much trash they was talking to.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was Worthy or Magic was
Speaker 2: at the fire line and he missed the free throw
Speaker 2: and mL car walked across the fire line and man,
Speaker 2: and I remember, I don't know if it was eighty
Speaker 2: four eighty five.
Speaker 3: So I'm following the series back and forth.
Speaker 2: The Lakers win in Boston, and they just come up
Speaker 2: in there and they gainst the Boston like, you know,
Speaker 2: because Boston was supposed to be the physical team. The
Speaker 2: Lakers was sposed to be showtime, and you know, so
Speaker 2: Lakers came up in.
Speaker 3: There and just you know, boom, boom, pound.
Speaker 2: And then you know, so Larry Bird the next day,
Speaker 2: you know, he called my team, you know, called him
Speaker 2: Sissy's and everything else, you know, all the newspaper. Right,
Speaker 2: so now they come back. I think it was game
Speaker 2: five here, and I mean it is. I think that's
Speaker 2: the game that Michael grabbed Rabbits threw him out of there, right.
Speaker 2: So so now I'm watching all this right and I'm
Speaker 2: sitting baseline, and they enter it in the Bird on
Speaker 2: the on the right side of the court, Bird on
Speaker 2: the baseline, and he dribbling down and Magic come to
Speaker 2: double team and I'm like, no, no, no, he ain't
Speaker 2: getting ready to shoot because now I'm studying. I'm like,
Speaker 2: you know, now i know when we're gonna do a
Speaker 2: step back.
Speaker 3: I'm I'm like no, I'm in my mind like, don't
Speaker 3: come double, don't come double.
Speaker 2: And he came in double and he kicked it out
Speaker 2: to Dennis Johnson and Dennis Johnson knocked it down right
Speaker 2: from the fire line.
Speaker 3: Boom game.
Speaker 2: And Boston beat l A here. But those type of
Speaker 2: you know, rivalries going back and forth. I mean the
Speaker 2: way they was fighting, and.
Speaker 3: I I felt so.
Speaker 2: Sorry and bad for Bird because the way Michael Cooper
Speaker 2: was guarding him. Man, I mean, dude, you you can
Speaker 2: see Michael Cooper's fingernails all on Birds, like you know,
Speaker 2: one time he pulled his his shirt and all you
Speaker 2: saw was Coop's fingernails, like and but man, they was
Speaker 2: going at it. And so now they go back to
Speaker 2: Boston and Bird was real clever. So they have an
Speaker 2: out of bounds play where balls balls here on the
Speaker 2: right side and he's coming up to set an upscreen
Speaker 2: as he comes, you know, instead of it being a
Speaker 2: pin down. Yeah, he said, no, he comes up to
Speaker 2: set an upscreen. But when he comes to set an upscreen,
Speaker 2: now you taking the ball out and that's the corner.
Speaker 2: And as he sat in the upscreen, the defenders in
Speaker 2: front of him, and that dude flared to the corner
Speaker 2: and caught it. And when he let it go, I
Speaker 2: was like, he ain't missing.
Speaker 3: It was like hit the back of the rim.
Speaker 2: But it must it al must have stayed in the
Speaker 2: air for about five seconds, I mean, just spinning perfectly
Speaker 2: right boom, hit the back, bounced off, and I was like, hey,
Speaker 2: God was with y'all to day Lays, because I mean,
Speaker 2: it was so clever of a play that he was
Speaker 2: able to up slide ball there. Ball came in and
Speaker 2: he was able to just right in front of the
Speaker 2: Laker bench. And if you go back and you look,
Speaker 2: you'll see pat Riley like hoping it don't go. Everybody
Speaker 2: was praying, I mean every the whole gym man when
Speaker 2: he caught the ball, you know when some people catch
Speaker 2: the ball right the whole gym, And when he missed, it.
Speaker 5: Was like, yeah, give me something quick on Robin.
Speaker 2: Best athlete I've ever seen, probably in the NBA, not
Speaker 2: the highest jumping athlete, but just the best athlete. Like
Speaker 2: I've never seen anybody who a ran that fast and
Speaker 2: then quick jump like that. So my first time playing
Speaker 2: with him, literally he gets to rebound kick it to
Speaker 2: me on the outlet pass right, and so when I
Speaker 2: get on the outlet, now I'm dribbling to the middle
Speaker 2: of the floor to set the brake. As I'm driveling
Speaker 2: it to the middle of the floor. Now this dude
Speaker 2: just threw it to me. He down there underneath of
Speaker 2: the back waving for it and I'm like, the hell
Speaker 2: get so of course I kick it up. But adjusting
Speaker 2: to his speed was the first thing I had to do.
Speaker 2: And then I never saw anybody scientifically break down rebounding
Speaker 2: the way Dennis Robin did. So all first, you know,
Speaker 2: our first couple of games, you know, we be in
Speaker 2: the layup line, and then he stopped and he just
Speaker 2: you know, stand under the rim, and you know used
Speaker 2: to be you you lay it up, and then after
Speaker 2: you do your layups, then you start taking a little
Speaker 2: short pull up shots, right, and so whenever we start
Speaker 2: taking short pull up shots, he would stop. And so finally,
Speaker 2: you know, like, what you're doing, man, get in line,
Speaker 2: like you know, like that, He's like, no, I'm counting
Speaker 2: some dinners. Was a little strange anyway. I'm like, I
Speaker 2: ain't gonna even respond to that. I'm just yeah, like
Speaker 2: I'm counting, right, and and so my mind everywhere right,
Speaker 2: and so finally, you know, now we break up and
Speaker 2: he's still standing in the basket, right, and he's just
Speaker 2: looking at everybody ball and I'm like, what you counting? Like,
Speaker 2: didn't I didn't ask what you're counting? I said, what
Speaker 2: you're doing? He said, I'm counting. I'm counting the spins
Speaker 2: on the ball. He said, when you shoot your ball,
Speaker 2: spind like three times. Joe sometimes spent four. This one spent.
Speaker 2: This dude was counting the rotations on the ball on
Speaker 2: every player. He knew how long it was going to
Speaker 2: be in the air, how many times it rotated, where
Speaker 2: it was gonna hit, where it would bounce. I had
Speaker 2: never seen nobody break down rebounding like that my life.
Speaker 2: That was kind of insane.
Speaker 3: That was that he was. He was a genius man.
Speaker 2: Dennis Rodman was a flat out genius when it came
Speaker 2: to basketball.
Speaker 3: I remember when he went.
Speaker 2: To Chicago and they said, well, you're gonna have a
Speaker 2: hard time learning the triangle.
Speaker 3: He goes, it's a triangle.
Speaker 5: Game five after the after the inbound turnover.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 4: Talk about this series and losing. You say, Bird wouldn't
Speaker 4: be all that if he was black, all that little
Speaker 4: stuff you know that went on. But and after that,
Speaker 4: y'all went on to win three finals. And I want
Speaker 4: to talk about that too, because two, I mean, excuse me, two,
Speaker 4: it should have been three.
Speaker 5: Should have been three. Yeah, and talk about that too.
Speaker 4: That'll be the second question about do you believe that
Speaker 4: the Pistons are dynasty.
Speaker 2: Well, we're not a dynasty because technically we didn't win three, right,
Speaker 2: So is that what caught because there's no written rules.
Speaker 1: So we had a debate with Freddie Gibbs who said,
Speaker 1: you guys were an about back and forth. Yeah, three,
Speaker 1: that makes you with a several runs, That makes you well.
Speaker 2: To me, it's about your your dominance in your banners,
Speaker 2: right and even and even though you even though you
Speaker 2: there's reasons why you didn't get that third banner, right,
Speaker 2: we would have been the first team in all era
Speaker 2: to win three. Only two teams if they say the
Speaker 2: eighties is the greatest basketball era, right, only two teams
Speaker 2: went back to back. It was Pistons in the Lakers
Speaker 2: as great a team as the Celtics were, they didn't
Speaker 2: go back to back. Only two teams went back to back.
Speaker 3: Now our.
Speaker 2: So are we a dynasty? We didn't get the third
Speaker 2: in Chicago was the first team to get three after
Speaker 2: this septh So Chicago, you can say, okay, what they
Speaker 2: did those three years and then came back and did
Speaker 2: you know, So that's when dynasty stopped. Dynasty talk starts.
Speaker 2: Lakers Celtics you have to give them dynasty talk because
Speaker 2: of their historical relevance. What Magic and Barry walked into,
Speaker 2: they walked into ready made dynasties. Already they were already dynasties, right,
Speaker 2: Celtics were already a dynasty, Lakers was already a dynasty.
Speaker 3: What now?
Speaker 2: What I would say, who's been the most impactful team
Speaker 2: on the NBA, It's the Detroit Pistons. When you look
Speaker 2: at our style of play, pick and roll, basketball, stretch
Speaker 2: five in lambeer, small guards, you know, shooting from the perimeter.
Speaker 2: We didn't have post that player. The way we influenced
Speaker 2: the game. The guys like myself, we weren't supposed to
Speaker 2: win championships. As a matter of fact, when I came
Speaker 2: into the league, all the point guards, Magic Johnson, Reggie Thiz,
Speaker 2: Paul Pressey, you know, everybody was six eight, sixt ' nine.
Speaker 3: The dudes won.
Speaker 2: We weren't supposed to win, right And as a matter
Speaker 2: of fact, I'm still the only one that's won this way.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: Steph Wright has won in Golden State, established a dynasty.
Speaker 2: But his playing style is different than mine totally. I
Speaker 2: scored and assisted. He scores, so two different ways of impacting,
Speaker 2: but so Golden State what they did Dynasty. But the
Speaker 2: most impactful and the most influential team that's played is
Speaker 2: a Detroit Pistons two. I still hold the record on
Speaker 2: both ends. And when you look at the playoff record
Speaker 2: in terms of steals, I think one year I had
Speaker 2: sixty six steals in a playoff run. I'm gonna say
Speaker 2: that again. It's a fief.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was real.
Speaker 2: That's a lot of defense right there. But you know,
Speaker 2: I think we've influenced the game the most from an
Speaker 2: offensive standpoint and also from a defensive standpoint. And then
Speaker 2: I would also say from a guard playing standpoint, the
Speaker 2: way guards play now. Every team they don't have a
Speaker 2: Magic Johnson type guard. They don't have a Michael Jordan
Speaker 2: type guard. They don't have a Dennis Johnson type guard.
Speaker 2: Every team right now has an Isaiah Thomas, Joe Dumars,
Speaker 2: Bennie Johnson type guard. You may not like it, you
Speaker 2: may not want to acknowledge it, it's true, but those
Speaker 2: are the facts. Right the nineties.
Speaker 1: Arguably the greatest team ever symbled in nineteen ninety two,
Speaker 1: your coach is the coach, and even at twelve years old,
Speaker 1: I knew the world knew you were missing from that team.
Speaker 2: Yeah, talk to us about that. Well, you know the
Speaker 2: last dance told you that's somebody who said they didn't
Speaker 2: want me on the team.
Speaker 5: Do you really believe it was a secret meeting.
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of people are saying there was no
Speaker 2: secret meeting. So it just sounds like it's just one guy.
Speaker 2: I said, that's the way medium mind, that's the way
Speaker 2: it's sounding like. You know, And if that's how you felt,
Speaker 2: own it, right, don't you know own it? That's how
Speaker 2: you felt, you know, own it. If you didn't feel
Speaker 2: that way, then clean it up. So I didn't make
Speaker 2: the team. That was the first time that I didn't
Speaker 2: make a team in my life.
Speaker 3: I never felt the sting of get and cut right.
Speaker 2: So when we all try for a team, you go
Speaker 2: and they put the they put the names on the wall,
Speaker 2: and you look and you see if you made it. Well,
Speaker 2: I was always on the team. This is the first
Speaker 2: time I didn't make a team and did that sting?
Speaker 2: Did that hurt?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Did?
Speaker 2: I want to be on the team one hundred percent right?
Speaker 2: But I didn't make it.
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: Was I mad? Was I upset? Probably went through all
Speaker 2: of those ranges of emotion. But then you know, again,
Speaker 2: I'm from the West side of Chicago, so it's like, hey,
Speaker 2: you didn't make it.
Speaker 3: What you're going to do?
Speaker 2: What's next? You can cry about it or you can
Speaker 2: you know, move on with your life. So I just
Speaker 2: kept moving on. I watched every game, I rooted for
Speaker 2: the USA to win. I have won the gold medal
Speaker 2: in seventy nine. I made the Olympic team in eighty
Speaker 2: that was boycotted, and was hoping that I would make
Speaker 2: this one. I didn't make it. I didn't know why
Speaker 2: I didn't make it, but did I do? I feel
Speaker 2: like I should have been on it, absolutely, But let
Speaker 2: me say this, me not making it has has given
Speaker 2: me more pub than I would have made it, you know,
Speaker 2: on the good side. So there's always some good and
Speaker 2: some bad way, you know. So I like the fact
Speaker 2: that you know the people acknowledge, even though if the
Speaker 2: institutions didn't acknowledge, we know the people acknowledge that I
Speaker 2: should have been on the team, and you know, so
Speaker 2: I'm good with that.
Speaker 1: Jordan rules, you went two titles. Mike is starting to catch,
Speaker 1: you know, get some stem with his team. Explain to
Speaker 1: the Jordan. Explain what the Jordan rules are and where
Speaker 1: it came from or what that is.
Speaker 2: John Sally told us his version of yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's pretty simple. Now, we had rules for everybody.
Speaker 2: We were a disciplined team. We had rules and we
Speaker 2: followed rules, We followed orders. This is what we had
Speaker 2: ten point plan. This is what we did. This is
Speaker 2: how we act, this is how we walked.
Speaker 3: This is what we do.
Speaker 2: So we had rules for Magic, we had rules for Kareem,
Speaker 2: we had rules for Bird. Just like y'all go into
Speaker 2: a locker room that rules for everybody, right, So Jordan rules.
Speaker 2: Jordan was a reluctant passer. He didn't like to pass,
Speaker 2: no question, and he was the first volume shooter, so
Speaker 2: he wasn't like a like now you see kids that
Speaker 2: got great handles and all that. He didn't have great handles.
Speaker 2: Couldn't go left right, and if he went left more
Speaker 2: than two three times, he had to pick it up.
Speaker 2: So the rules were very simple. Left side of the floor,
Speaker 2: sen him left. Right side of the floor, sen him
Speaker 2: left in the middle, send him left. Now when he's
Speaker 2: going left, we wanted the trap to be visible right,
Speaker 2: So I'm going left and the first person that he
Speaker 2: sees now is running at him, and you, as a defender,
Speaker 2: your job is to take away his right hand because now,
Speaker 2: as a passer, we want that ball going in the air.
Speaker 2: And if that ball goes in the air, we're quick
Speaker 2: enough to rotate and get back and match up. So
Speaker 2: as that defender leaves to come trap off the baseline
Speaker 2: or from the top, second defender, your job is to
Speaker 2: rotate to cover. Now we want that pass going in
Speaker 2: the air. Cross court.
Speaker 3: Jordan didn't want to pass. So what would he do?
Speaker 2: Turn over? He would shoot, I'll shoot it, yeah.
Speaker 3: And guess what he would do. He would miss. Okay, now.
Speaker 2: He would be You know, we didn't mind if he
Speaker 2: was nine for twenty six.
Speaker 3: We didn't mind if he was ten for thirty.
Speaker 2: Now the newspaper were right, he scored twenty seven, but
Speaker 2: we would say, okay, you know it was ten for thirty. Now,
Speaker 2: mind you, there were a couple of games he was
Speaker 2: twenty for twenty five. He wasn't always ten for thirty.
Speaker 2: But here's what this was the key though, by him
Speaker 2: being a volume shooter. So this stuff they talk about
Speaker 2: analytics right now and all this other stuff. Okay, that
Speaker 2: was the Detroit Pistons. Okay, how many possessions you're gonna
Speaker 2: have in the game. Okay, is it gonna be ninety five,
Speaker 2: it's gonna be one hundred, it's gonna be eighty, it's
Speaker 2: gonna be eighty five. Right, our job was to limit
Speaker 2: the possessions. And if we can shut down the possessions. Okay,
Speaker 2: Jordan's said that you're taking thirty shots this game, right,
Speaker 2: you're only gonna get twenty five.
Speaker 3: But here's what was the.
Speaker 2: Key, Scotty who normally gets twelve to thirteen shots because
Speaker 2: he's a reluctant passer this game, Scotty, you're only gonna
Speaker 2: get seven shots. And you know this one over here,
Speaker 2: Harace Grant, you might get three shots. And by the way,
Speaker 2: those shots that you've taken and that you're getting, they're
Speaker 2: gonna be at the end of the shot clock. It's
Speaker 2: gonna be somebody running at you, potato, and now right,
Speaker 2: your field goal percentage. Right, So this is where we said,
Speaker 2: we were mentally like, you know, we we take your
Speaker 2: little brain and just twist it until you fucking fall off, right,
Speaker 2: that's we. So now when you're looking at that statue
Speaker 2: and your field goal percentage, it's thirty seven and it
Speaker 2: ain't forty five, right, you know that mess with you.
Speaker 2: So now you're looking at your field goal percentage, and
Speaker 2: your field goal percentage is thirty seven. And now we
Speaker 2: you know, you play games with people out on the court. Hey,
Speaker 2: I'm you know, b J. I'm gonna lee you open right.
Speaker 2: He ain't gonna even throw it to you right right.
Speaker 2: You go down there and double he shoot right, and
Speaker 2: then you come back and say, he ain't got to
Speaker 2: guard you. So those type of mental games you play
Speaker 2: with the team. And if I can break trust in
Speaker 2: one person, you got him, Well I don't beat you.
Speaker 3: So those were the Jordan rules. Now Jordan goes to
Speaker 3: the basket.
Speaker 2: Let's say he beats all the double teams right now,
Speaker 2: he gets to the basket. The NBA at that time
Speaker 2: wanted to market the dunk, right and understanding their marketing plan,
Speaker 2: the Lakers, the Celtics, it was birds shooting, it was
Speaker 2: magic passing, it was Kareem hooking. Now they come with
Speaker 2: the marketing plan that we want to market the dunk.
Speaker 3: Everybody got to fly.
Speaker 2: In the air. Remember when y'all were growing up, how
Speaker 2: high can you dunk. How do you got a dunk?
Speaker 2: You got dunk this way right now? They market in
Speaker 2: a three point shot. Man, you can come down and
Speaker 2: do a zach lavine dunk between your legs, floating the
Speaker 2: air and all this other stuff and do that.
Speaker 3: That's all somebody shoot a three w.
Speaker 2: Right crazy. So so the marketing right, so understanding the
Speaker 2: marketing plan, we ain't gonna let you dunk. Guess what
Speaker 2: when you come to the whole and you've heard this
Speaker 2: from all your coaches, don't give up the dunk. We
Speaker 2: gonna file you. That's and put you on the file line.
Speaker 2: So when we would file him and put him on
Speaker 2: the fire line, he would cry, real files too, Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: what I was getting real files too? Yeah, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: one like one like he was the only one get
Speaker 2: getting real back then in everybody was getting filed. Michael
Speaker 2: snatched rambits out of the air. Bird was fine on
Speaker 2: doctor J. I'm sorry doctor J was flying on Bird.
Speaker 3: You know, I mean, who was.
Speaker 4: The big guy that the talk got of elbowed you?
Speaker 5: Now I call him? It was another all right call.
Speaker 2: Right car right, yes, sir, all right, you still lit?
Speaker 2: I got my lip you call He's coming in like
Speaker 2: I like to fight. So you go back and you
Speaker 2: slow that down. I you know, my little left hand
Speaker 2: was up in there, and I went to plant, and
Speaker 2: I'm glad I slipped because I went to plant. And
Speaker 2: when I went to plant, he was still rushing. And
Speaker 2: by him being big and coming in right on that chin, no,
Speaker 2: I was broke. No, I was gonna drive that nose
Speaker 2: bone right up to his brain. I was coming, man,
Speaker 2: and I slipped. And when I slipped right then you
Speaker 2: will see me just rush up into him, right. So
Speaker 2: I just run up into his chest. So he came
Speaker 2: like swinging hit me and then they break it up.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so so Oakley, right, he gets traded because
Speaker 2: they say Chicago won't tough enough. So they went and
Speaker 2: got caught right. So they traded Oakley to New York.
Speaker 2: Go get caught right. And you know Cort right, he
Speaker 2: throw some balls. He caught me. I ain't gonna lie. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So I was getting Horace Grant. Horace Grant was hitting
Speaker 2: me pretty hard coming down the lane. So they was
Speaker 2: laying wood, man, I mean they was laying hardwood. But
Speaker 2: but Jordan was he was the only one still crying today.
Speaker 3: They hit it if it was dirty. Look look what
Speaker 3: they did.
Speaker 2: They show you all the clips, right, They show you
Speaker 2: a few video clips and tell the world this is
Speaker 2: how they played.
Speaker 3: They don't never show you the game.
Speaker 2: Have you seen the Chicago Bulls Detroit Pistons basketball game.
Speaker 2: Any of y'all fans will show you the game. They
Speaker 2: show you the few video clips because they got to
Speaker 2: keep this thing going.
Speaker 3: But show how we really played. Everybody got filed.
Speaker 2: There's a guy during that time got hit harder and
Speaker 2: more times than Isaiah Thomas driving down the lane. I
Speaker 2: got the scars for it, but I ain't never cried.
Speaker 2: I just got up, went to the fire line. But
Speaker 2: you know he went to the league office. You know
Speaker 2: they wrote newspaper articles about it. You sitting here talking
Speaker 2: about the Jordan rules, and man, we had Kareem rules,
Speaker 2: we had Magic rules.
Speaker 3: Y'all played. There was Tim Duncan Ruse, Ryan Ruse rules.
Speaker 3: So don't make it sound.
Speaker 5: Like AI rule. Don't get crossed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't make it sound like it was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it don't make it sound like it was something
Speaker 2: really special for them that we had a defensive philosophy
Speaker 2: for everybody. We played again and his was okay, send
Speaker 2: them to the foul line, they can make free throws.
Speaker 2: He was eighty five from the line. We had a
Speaker 2: better chance for him missing the free throw, which he
Speaker 2: didn't miss that many. But that dunk, that's for sure too. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so momentum.
Speaker 3: Again, So you know possessions, you know shot clocks.
Speaker 4: You keep trying to go up and dunk four quarter?
Speaker 4: You tied them shots short.
Speaker 2: Tell me about it. And by the way, guess what
Speaker 2: we set real screen? Yeah, yeah, we set screens on offense. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so you know, everybody getting picked, but then there's some
Speaker 2: people who get picked harder. Right, so if you if
Speaker 2: your head ain't on a swivel down there, part of
Speaker 2: that's part of the game now, lockof So that so
Speaker 2: don't don't again, don't make it like something that it
Speaker 2: really was.
Speaker 4: But you know, as basketball players, we understand that because
Speaker 4: if you've been in the playoffs, you have you you
Speaker 4: do game planers and different strategies for each team.
Speaker 5: Each you have rules for star players.
Speaker 1: So but I also like them being able to explain
Speaker 1: it because this is the narrative that has been.
Speaker 2: Out for thirty forty years. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: For you to be able to break it down.
Speaker 1: It wasn't just there was rules for this, this and that,
Speaker 1: but they just chose to focus.
Speaker 2: On That's why y'all got the best show of going
Speaker 2: all that smoke. You got two crew form of players
Speaker 2: that now I can have in depth real basketball conversations.
Speaker 2: I ain't talking to two guys that ain't never played
Speaker 2: in the NBA. I ain't talking two guys that ain't
Speaker 2: never won championships. They ain't never played. I'm talking to
Speaker 2: the real guys now, right. There ain't a whole lot
Speaker 2: of real guys you can have this level of conversation with, right,
Speaker 2: So it always had to get dumbed down. You know.
Speaker 2: Then they take a few sentences or whatever, they chop
Speaker 2: it up and they go to this the Detroit business.
Speaker 4: But like I said, it's definitely refreshing to hear from
Speaker 4: your mom because we know that we know it's rules
Speaker 4: for every different players, especially the star players. And if
Speaker 4: you don't have no rules, they're gonna get your ass
Speaker 4: fifty points. Then you gonna look like you don't even
Speaker 4: belong God there, Thank you, good down, Thank you.
Speaker 2: Early nineties.
Speaker 1: You're coming off three straight finals appearance. You tell your
Speaker 1: achilles an injury back then there was a career ender.
Speaker 1: Now they're coming back off them thoughts when that happens.
Speaker 2: So here was the career ending that that I don't
Speaker 2: talk about and didn't talk about. Right, So your wrists, yeah,
Speaker 2: see this is as far as I can bet my wrist.
Speaker 2: That's your shooting hand to my shooting hand. Now, the
Speaker 2: doctor Kirk Watson, it's called the Kirk Watson Rich surgery.
Speaker 3: He invented the surgery.
Speaker 2: And when he did this surgery on my wrist in
Speaker 2: ninety one, this is the year we lost.
Speaker 3: I think I missed like fifty some games that year.
Speaker 2: He said to me, you never play basketball again, and
Speaker 2: I was like, no, I'm gonna play. Go No, this
Speaker 2: is this is career ending specifically for a small guard.
Speaker 2: Now for big men who play around the basket. If
Speaker 2: you was six seven post up guy, you know it worked.
Speaker 2: But you being a small guy having to shoot from
Speaker 2: the perimeter. And you can go back and look after
Speaker 2: we won in ninety and after this wrisk surgery, right,
Speaker 2: you can look at my stats from ninety one to
Speaker 2: ninety four. I won't the same player because I couldn't shoot.
Speaker 3: Now, why did I have to hang on that contract?
Speaker 2: Right? You know you you got three more years left
Speaker 2: on the contract. I ain't gonna get that bad. You
Speaker 2: gotta get the money now. I can't retire. So you
Speaker 2: stay and you do the best you can. But you're
Speaker 2: not the same anymore. When did you realize you want?
Speaker 2: Like as soon as you came back, you knew. I
Speaker 2: was like, oh shit, I can't bend my wrist. I couldn't.
Speaker 2: So nineteen ninety, I think I still hold the three
Speaker 2: point shooting record in the NBA Finals, the highest percentage.
Speaker 2: I think I shot sixty two, sixty three from the
Speaker 2: three point line. You got researcher here right there. You're
Speaker 2: doing it right now on it come out of telling.
Speaker 2: Nineteen ninety were playing the Portland Trail Blazers. We beat
Speaker 2: them for one. What was my three point field goal percentage? Damn? Damn?
Speaker 5: What you was?
Speaker 4: What you was shooting in the ocean?
Speaker 2: Sh I was kind of good understand So that that
Speaker 2: still is the highest percentage percentage right sixty. So now
Speaker 2: I come back ninety one and how you hurt your wrist?
Speaker 2: Shot too much? It was just doctor said, hey, yeah,
Speaker 2: he said, you on't hear so many bands in the wrist.
Speaker 2: Crazy and I was, man, I I practice. All I
Speaker 2: was doing was shooting, and I had got so good
Speaker 2: from that three point line, and then my penetration game
Speaker 2: was on. So again, like when you talk about the pistols,
Speaker 2: we changed the way the game's played in that same series,
Speaker 2: What did Bill Lambert shoot from the three point line?
Speaker 2: Thirty seven thirty six right in today's game? In today's game,
Speaker 2: that's the standard. Right, So you know that was all
Speaker 2: center and that's how we played, right. Bill Lambier was
Speaker 2: heavily criticized because he wasn't a post up center and
Speaker 2: he was standing outside shooting three pointers and we was
Speaker 2: playing pick and roll. But you know, when did I
Speaker 2: know it was over? After that surgery? So I had
Speaker 2: to the first part of the surgery. I had to
Speaker 2: walk around like this for six weeks and their little
Speaker 2: sling and they won't no bla love running up in it, right,
Speaker 2: And then they let me come down like this, right.
Speaker 2: And then when they took the cast and everything off, Man,
Speaker 2: my wrist was that.
Speaker 4: Big, funky the cast was stinking. Oh I remember them days.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And so now we I'm playing left handed in the
Speaker 2: playoffs because I can't.
Speaker 1: Shoot, Is it painful. You just can't bend.
Speaker 2: It painful, you know, I wouldn't come out of the
Speaker 2: cast muscles around it. And then they slapping, I mean
Speaker 2: they hit me. Scottie Pippen hit my arm one time
Speaker 2: in the Eastern Coverage final. Man, I swear to god,
Speaker 2: tears came to my just smother. I didn't do all
Speaker 2: that because you can't let them know, right, man, I
Speaker 2: swear to god, I started crying. And if I wasn't sweating, right,
Speaker 2: you would have seen it. People, people would have seen it.
Speaker 2: I was just playing it off, like man, that dude
Speaker 2: hit my arm so hard. Man. And speaking of Scotty,
Speaker 2: I do want to clean some up and gig Scotty
Speaker 2: is respect because as a defender, right, he don't get
Speaker 2: enough credit. And when we talk about probably the greatest
Speaker 2: and the best defender that's ever played in the NBA,
Speaker 2: Chicago had two Robbing and Scottie Pippen, but Scotty, Scotty
Speaker 2: was different, you know, as a defender at his best,
Speaker 2: I may have to say that he and Robin one
Speaker 2: and two best defenders probably ever to play the game.
Speaker 2: And so I do want to give him his respect
Speaker 2: and his props because and then as a facilitator, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean Scotty Scotty, you know he was, he was
Speaker 2: the real deal. It was a great Yeah, there's been
Speaker 2: recent debates about the physicality in today's game.
Speaker 1: I don't even understand this because it's not physical. This
Speaker 1: is the internet talk. So there's been some guys that
Speaker 1: we play with, Yeah, Gilbert Aarenaz, JJ Redick in particularly
Speaker 1: that says it's tougher to play in today's game than
Speaker 1: it was to play in the eighties. Thoughts on that,
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously the physicality. I don't think there's any
Speaker 1: comparison to the physicality when you played to what today
Speaker 1: is because you can't be physical. But just thoughts on
Speaker 1: I guess let me change my questions just the errors
Speaker 1: of basketball in your mind, being an all time great,
Speaker 1: is it hard to compare? Can you compare eras or
Speaker 1: just the game has continued to evolve so much that
Speaker 1: it's just kind of you leave them in their era.
Speaker 2: So I do have to answer this question in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways. Okay, so the errors are different. Some
Speaker 2: people say the eighties was the best era of basketball. Ever,
Speaker 2: some people have said the nineties, you know, it's wasn't
Speaker 2: one of the greatest basketball eras ever them two thousands.
Speaker 2: You know that as the rules started changing and coaching
Speaker 2: schemes started changing. When you say the game has evolved,
Speaker 2: so I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna go there,
Speaker 2: and then I want you to take me back to
Speaker 2: this question. So has the game really evolved? And what
Speaker 2: does that mean when you say it's evolved? Now, I
Speaker 2: grew up with watching a guy by the name of
Speaker 2: Billy Harres shoot from half court. He wouldn't take a layup.
Speaker 2: He come down one on nobody and he stopped and
Speaker 2: pull up at the top of the key, and everybody
Speaker 2: would holler, lay up right. He was known for never
Speaker 2: shooting the layup right. He was known for pulling up
Speaker 2: at half court knocking it down. When y'all was playing
Speaker 2: in the real games, it was a guy by the
Speaker 2: name of Stephan Marberry Straberry who would stop at half court,
Speaker 2: pull up, boom, knock it down. What has changed? And
Speaker 2: the guy who doesn't get credit for changing the game
Speaker 2: in this so called evolution of the game, his name
Speaker 2: would be coach Mark Jackson. Now let me tell you
Speaker 2: why Mark Jackson changed the game. Because Mark jacksc so
Speaker 2: a guy by the name of Steph Curry and a
Speaker 2: guy by the name of Clay Thompson, and Mark Jackson
Speaker 2: as a coach, made it acceptable. He made it acceptable
Speaker 2: for Steph Curry and Clay to shoot.
Speaker 3: From that range.
Speaker 2: People always shot from their range, they just didn't do
Speaker 2: it as part of their offensive schemes. Mark Jackson solely
Speaker 2: accepted Steph and Clay shooting from that distance, from that
Speaker 2: range doing crucial parts of the.
Speaker 1: Game because before that it was lived by the day
Speaker 1: three dive US three because it hadn't been proven yet
Speaker 1: that you could win that way.
Speaker 3: Well, we proved it.
Speaker 1: Consistently at a I'll take it back because it was
Speaker 1: inside out. But also you know when you when we
Speaker 1: talked about your three point percentage were eleven for sixteen
Speaker 1: in the finals.
Speaker 2: Like that's one game for guys, now, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. So just the volume, the value, that's what
Speaker 2: I'm doing it so Mark, So the one who has
Speaker 2: power gives definition too, and the one who has power
Speaker 2: can also allow things to happen. We came up and
Speaker 2: when we were playing all coaches that wasn't acceptable to
Speaker 2: shoot and from that distance or play that way. It
Speaker 2: just wasn't acceptable. Mark Jackson alone accepted and when he accepted,
Speaker 2: that changed the game. That changed the game. Steph Curry,
Speaker 2: Clay Thompson would not be Steph Curry Clay Thompson getting
Speaker 2: credit for evolutionary if there wasn't a teacher and a
Speaker 2: masters say.
Speaker 3: You can do that.
Speaker 2: And I'll never forget watching Golden State play. Okay see,
Speaker 2: and Clay Thompson pulled up, dude in the pressure situation,
Speaker 2: the pressure situation from the hash Mark bam. Now, Mark
Speaker 2: Jackson wasn't coaching in but the thought the acceptability right
Speaker 2: that that's were watching Kevin Durant and Cleveland come down
Speaker 2: and Lebron James waiting for him, and Kevin Durant stopped
Speaker 2: three feet from behind Booms Sandwiches, and they asked Lebron
Speaker 2: James what was the difference between last year and this year?
Speaker 2: He said, kd You know, but Mark Jackson, in my opinion,
Speaker 2: when you say the evolution of the game and a
Speaker 2: three point shot, his name should be. Yeah. He's the
Speaker 2: one who changed the game. He's the one who made
Speaker 2: it acceptable from a coaching standpoint to not allow you.
Speaker 3: To shoot them there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, me, neither at all. But allow you to miss
Speaker 2: from there.
Speaker 1: It wasn't shooting like you said, It was the missus.
Speaker 2: It's the missus. He can't keep missing. That can't keep missing.
Speaker 2: Now we see, guys. I saw Steph come back his
Speaker 2: first game after being injured one time, and he went
Speaker 2: three for sixteen in Portland from the three point line.
Speaker 2: It's acceptable now, sixteen of them boys, it's acceptable now, right?
Speaker 3: You know you can. You can go one for.
Speaker 2: Ten and say I'm gonna get hot Mark, Mark Jackson.
Speaker 3: Change the game.
Speaker 1: And that's not even just credit and Clay and stuff's talent.
Speaker 1: But like you said, to understand what you're saying, it's
Speaker 1: just someone that will allowing and accept it and understand it.
Speaker 1: And you're definitely not wrong. I know you were obviously
Speaker 1: a team guy and and you ran your system and
Speaker 1: you thought. But with the freedom of today's game, because
Speaker 1: of Mark, what do you feel like if you were
Speaker 1: just an individual out there in today's game, what do
Speaker 1: you feel like you can average with your ability to
Speaker 1: do people can't stand in front of you can shoot
Speaker 1: the ball to high clip.
Speaker 2: If I dominated, then I would dominating. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: I because the rules now favor me. They favor the
Speaker 2: small guy. They they favor me. Now, freedom of movement,
Speaker 2: self space, No, ain't nobody in the lane.
Speaker 5: No hand checking either.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know the hand checking it bothered me some.
Speaker 2: But I was fast right, so and then I knew
Speaker 2: a little judo, So you put your hand there. I
Speaker 2: hit them, you know, I knew how to I knew
Speaker 2: how to move it and get by. But the nobody
Speaker 2: in the lane. See, every time I drove down the lane,
Speaker 2: six people in the lane. You know, there's me and
Speaker 2: my defender and then there's you know, two big So
Speaker 2: you you got to be tricky around the basket. Now
Speaker 2: you're driving down the lane, it's naked. Ain't nobody there,
Speaker 2: so you you get to stretch out, lay up if
Speaker 2: you if you saw me coming down, I had to.
Speaker 2: I had to ball up and then I had to
Speaker 2: come out, you know. So But like I said that,
Speaker 2: if if I dominated, then I would dominate now and
Speaker 2: and make no mistake about it. In the game of basketball.
Speaker 2: Some people may say you're arrogant. I don't care. I
Speaker 2: am extremely confident in my skills and my ability. In
Speaker 2: what I was doing and what I could do. I
Speaker 2: can't do it now, But you know, I would be
Speaker 2: all right.
Speaker 1: I agree to say the least three players you feel
Speaker 1: like they'll be the face of the NBA in the
Speaker 1: next ten years.
Speaker 2: I don't know if they'll be from America. I'm just
Speaker 2: saying facts.
Speaker 5: That's crazy.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's crazy, that that's true though, Jannis Luca,
Speaker 2: you know, Joker. I mean when you look at the
Speaker 2: last five, the young boy woman Yama. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: when you look at the last name, the last four
Speaker 2: five m m vps, they all been international players. Now
Speaker 2: that's you know, that's the conversation I have.
Speaker 4: Yeah, winning the MVP and can't get to the finals
Speaker 4: or at least the conference finals or something. You can't
Speaker 4: gotta win. Yeah, it gotta be a shut it down after,
Speaker 4: like you can win it back to back. Okay, cool,
Speaker 4: I understand that. But one of them back to back years,
Speaker 4: you got at least get to your conference finals. Bro,
Speaker 4: you can't get there. You're not MVP.
Speaker 1: Got it one time? Then they go to the Western finals.
Speaker 4: Once in the bubble, right now, that bubble ship don't count.
Speaker 3: But this was the number. This where the analytics don't count.
Speaker 2: This is where the analytics, like you know, the the
Speaker 2: those remember I said, those who are in power, they
Speaker 2: give definition two. So they get to define, and they
Speaker 2: get to make the rules and they get to say
Speaker 2: what's acceptable. So now winning is totally discounted. Yes, that
Speaker 2: you know, it's like anybody can win. And I'm here
Speaker 2: to say, no, that ain't true. Those of us who
Speaker 2: have won will let you know like it ain't easy. No,
Speaker 2: it ain't easy. And that that guy who's the twelfth
Speaker 2: man that do count? Right?
Speaker 3: And why does he count?
Speaker 2: Because there is a such thing called chemistry that makes
Speaker 2: a whole team work, that makes it all together.
Speaker 3: And that guy who part of it is a big
Speaker 3: part of it.
Speaker 2: His personality, his character, his showing up things that you
Speaker 2: don't measure right, those things are what we say, those
Speaker 2: are the things that we value. Remember when we was
Speaker 2: growing up, it was like, dude, you could have a
Speaker 2: twenty points and ten rebounds, but if your character is nasty, you.
Speaker 3: Ain't on a team.
Speaker 2: Yah, I ain't picking you, You ain't on a teen.
Speaker 2: You just ain't on a team. Now you can have
Speaker 2: as twenty and ten have a bad attitude and they'd
Speaker 2: be like, well, you know, he does get twenty points
Speaker 2: ten rebounds, but they never speak to your personality, your character,
Speaker 2: who you are, you're upstanding, none of that, right, So
Speaker 2: since winning doesn't matter now, we're just talking about numbers.
Speaker 2: And if we're only talking about numbers, analytics makes you
Speaker 2: selfish because you are only thinking about your numbers, and
Speaker 2: you get paid on your numbers. And if I'm getting
Speaker 2: paid on my numbers, and all I gotta do is
Speaker 2: get numbers. And because that's all Republic understands. Because we
Speaker 2: have to we have to present the game in a
Speaker 2: way that the average fan will understand it so we
Speaker 2: can get more fans. So if I dumb it down
Speaker 2: and break it down so it's only about numbers, then
Speaker 2: it's a game for everybody. It's not an exclusive club anymore.
Speaker 2: Anybody can do it. You got kids not thinking like
Speaker 2: they can play like Steph Curry and shoot like Steph
Speaker 2: Curry because right now, all you got to do is
Speaker 2: be able to dribble, make a layup, make a free throw,
Speaker 2: and shoot a jump shot. You don't have to understand
Speaker 2: no schemes. So when you look at a guy like
Speaker 2: you know, the joker, no disrespect, you know I like him,
Speaker 2: But I was I was saying the other year, like
Speaker 2: Devin Booker. His team at the best record, and he
Speaker 2: was average twenty six twenty seven points and he ain't
Speaker 2: the MVP, right right, There used to be a time
Speaker 2: when winning mass record when it matters. You haveage twenty six,
Speaker 2: you have age twenty seven.
Speaker 3: You know, we got to give you that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you can't be the MVP of the league
Speaker 2: one year and your team is in fifth places.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's never worked that way.
Speaker 5: And you can't be the.
Speaker 4: Best player in the league for sure when your team
Speaker 4: not even in the playoffs. Yeah, they won't know a
Speaker 4: lot of people don't want to hear that.
Speaker 2: Those are those are the facts. Well that's how that's
Speaker 2: how we look at it. Yeah, right, it's like now,
Speaker 2: unfortunately we don't have the loudest voice.
Speaker 3: You know that we're not the majority.
Speaker 2: The majority has the loudest voice because there's more of them, Right,
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that they're right.
Speaker 5: Absolute, No, not at all, not at all, not at all.
Speaker 1: Mean culture, you haven't mean that came out. I met
Speaker 1: the criteria to be selected, but I wasn't. Thoughts on
Speaker 1: just where can you imagine having social media back when
Speaker 1: you guys played, we would have killed it?
Speaker 2: He said, we were killed.
Speaker 4: What's what's mean?
Speaker 2: You know I met the criteria, but I wasn't selected. Okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah yeah, but I kind of like that. Yeah. Now,
Speaker 2: speaking of that meme, right, you see me dressed in
Speaker 2: the three piece suit. This the other thing I got
Speaker 2: to say about Mike Now, his producer and Mike, they
Speaker 2: called me, hey, we need you in the video. Can't
Speaker 2: tell my story without you. He's so important. Now I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: we all cool, can't tell my story without you, you.
Speaker 3: Know, blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: So I dress up. I'm sitting in a three piece suit.
Speaker 2: I bring one of my partners, Kevin Cottrell or you know,
Speaker 2: he was sitting in the interview. We actually did it
Speaker 2: at NBA TV. I sat there for two hours, said
Speaker 2: a lot of good stuff. Right, last dance, come out,
Speaker 2: and that's it. Now I'm dressed to the nine. I
Speaker 2: didn't come here in the sweatsuit today. I'm giving you respect.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna show up, you know, the right way, because
Speaker 2: I got respect for you. I showed up the right
Speaker 2: way for that dude. And I sat there and I
Speaker 2: did the interview. And that's what you do to me. Now,
Speaker 2: I like the mean on the real I like the mean.
Speaker 2: I ain't gonna front on it, but I like it.
Speaker 2: I'm just glad I was dressed nice.
Speaker 5: Tell me if I'm going too far. Did you get
Speaker 5: a check?
Speaker 2: Noh? Hell noah no, wait wait a minute, I didn't
Speaker 2: ask for a check.
Speaker 4: No, I know you to ask for you know what
Speaker 4: I'm saying. But like you know, damn.
Speaker 2: But but the way I was brought up right again,
Speaker 2: we talk about that West side of Chicago that you
Speaker 2: know we I came up in the era where where
Speaker 2: we give each other knowledge. You know, the game game
Speaker 2: is meant to be told, and I sold right. This
Speaker 2: is a generation that has sipped flipped it all around.
Speaker 2: So we don't work with each other, We don't share
Speaker 2: with each other, don't pass on knowledge. We don't we
Speaker 2: don't uplift each other, you know. And so I went
Speaker 2: there to uplift love. Yeah. Absolutely, I didn't go there
Speaker 2: to tear down. So do I feel blindsided? Like I said,
Speaker 2: I got to sit here and answer these questions. Now. Now,
Speaker 2: if he real he should come on your show, he
Speaker 2: should sit in this seat, and and he should talk
Speaker 2: to y'all as brothers. He should talk to y'all as former.
Speaker 2: You know, I agree, I did this clip straight. No, no,
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean I hear y'all praise him rightfully.
Speaker 2: So and he should be, you know, because his shoe
Speaker 2: game is tight, what he's done in the shoe industry
Speaker 2: and and and we're happy for that, right, But there's
Speaker 2: some other stuff, you know, hey, come on, man, like
Speaker 2: you know, be real.
Speaker 1: Talk about all times. Two thousand elected to the Hall
Speaker 1: of Fame. When you think about your body of work,
Speaker 1: starting in high school, through college, through the league, what
Speaker 1: rinse what stands out to you the most?
Speaker 5: Just a winner, proven winner.
Speaker 4: Everybody can't say they won on every level.
Speaker 2: They played on and started an NBA franchise in the
Speaker 2: foreign country, the Toronto Raptors. So when I look at
Speaker 2: the Raptors and what I did there has stood at
Speaker 2: the test of time. And you know that two thousand
Speaker 2: going into the Hall of Fame. So I retired in
Speaker 2: ninety four in April. In May, I was part owner
Speaker 2: president of the basketball operation. I was the first player
Speaker 2: to ever walk off the floor go straight into it
Speaker 2: and go straight into ownership and run basketball operations. And
Speaker 2: by the way, all we had was a blank sheet
Speaker 2: of paper. There was no uniform. So there you go again.
Speaker 2: You did that before, though you did in Detroit. You
Speaker 2: built it up so the same thing. So when you
Speaker 2: see when you see the raptor run out there with
Speaker 2: that flag and he planted his flag and he waved
Speaker 2: his flag, you can go back and you will see
Speaker 2: the bad boys run out what they flag wave it.
Speaker 2: We plant all flag right and all colors. What we
Speaker 2: stood for right is all around there. You know that
Speaker 2: dance pack, that dance team started all of that, right.
Speaker 2: So standing up there in the Hall of Fame. In
Speaker 2: two thousand, I owned a league called the CBA and
Speaker 2: the first man to ever own a league, and turned
Speaker 2: it into a single entity which the NBA. Then started
Speaker 2: the w NBA and copied a lot of all formulas
Speaker 2: what we were doing. CBA had got to a point
Speaker 2: where it was so good. David Stern said, I like that.
Speaker 2: I want that.
Speaker 3: So they started the G League and now everything that.
Speaker 5: The g you have something to do with the CBA.
Speaker 3: I owned it. I owned the whole league.
Speaker 4: I didn't know that. I played that ship for about
Speaker 4: two weeks. Yeah no, no, the cross Bobcat, Yeah, the
Speaker 4: worst place on earth.
Speaker 3: I owned the whole league.
Speaker 2: About every team, say word about about every team. And
Speaker 2: I was I was the first individual. It's the first
Speaker 2: individual to ever own an entire league. Not the way
Speaker 2: they the way it's been written. Oh you you bankrupted
Speaker 2: the cb A time out the NBA. David Stern and
Speaker 2: those owners bankrupted the CBA and started the g leag
Speaker 2: on purpose. Well, it was competition, you know, And and
Speaker 2: I get it, that's business, you know. They were they
Speaker 2: had more money, and I didn't have the money to
Speaker 2: compete with what they were getting ready to do. I
Speaker 2: thought wrongfully, So I thought that being a former player,
Speaker 2: that they would say, support you, let's uplift you.
Speaker 5: Same thing.
Speaker 2: You thought.
Speaker 3: It's business.
Speaker 2: They looking at his business like no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: no no, it's good enough you competition, we want that
Speaker 2: or either get out now the other thing that you know,
Speaker 2: let's those are lessons learned. Those are those are hard
Speaker 2: business lessons. So when you talk about the first game
Speaker 2: that was ever broadcast live over the internet that came
Speaker 2: out of the CBA, Isaiah Thomas did that CBA Hoops,
Speaker 2: there was a CBA Hoops before NBA dot Com. Okay,
Speaker 2: so that let's just real talk, and that those now
Speaker 2: were they better at business and did they have more money? Absolutely,
Speaker 2: when you look at the G League, you know a
Speaker 2: good portion of that is my business plan. Just the blueprint,
Speaker 2: the blueprint for sure, that's the blueprint. Mm.
Speaker 5: Same thing, yep, just with more money.
Speaker 2: Now. The other thing that you can go back and
Speaker 2: look into history when you talk about the CBA, they
Speaker 2: said I couldn't own the league and coach in the
Speaker 2: NBA at the same time, so they said it was
Speaker 2: a conflict of interests.
Speaker 3: The only time that there was a special.
Speaker 2: Vote in the NBA by the owners that rule that
Speaker 2: Isaiah Thomas could not own the league or a team
Speaker 2: because it was a conflict of interests. The owners voted,
Speaker 2: so I had to sell or give up the CBA
Speaker 2: to coach the Indiana Pacers. M hmm. Interesting.
Speaker 4: So did you have a hand in putting the team
Speaker 4: in Lacrosse, Wisconsin, because I've still traumatized from that city.
Speaker 4: My first day I go to practice or go unpacked
Speaker 4: and the team decides to go bowling. As soon as
Speaker 4: I get rid of the road, mis strike. Two dudes
Speaker 4: coming in and lay the whole place.
Speaker 5: Down to rob everybody.
Speaker 4: I'm like, I want to make play basketball, but I
Speaker 4: don't know if the risk is worth the reward.
Speaker 2: So Stid, my brother and I had family in Racine,
Speaker 2: Westconsin and I had a lot of bad a lot
Speaker 2: of people from Chicago.
Speaker 3: A lot of people from.
Speaker 2: Chicago from Racine, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5: A lot of Racine was ontouchables, yeah street.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people from Chicago left and had
Speaker 2: to go to Wisconsin. They went to two places, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Minnesota.
Speaker 2: And so actually the owners and Lacrosse, they were good people.
Speaker 2: So the CBA owners when I bought the CBA from them,
Speaker 2: all of them were good people.
Speaker 3: They were good operators.
Speaker 2: I left them all in the business and the NBA became.
Speaker 2: You know, they wanted a league for themselves.
Speaker 1: Is this urban legend? Is there any truth to this
Speaker 1: that you wanted to draft Kevin Garnett in Toronto, put
Speaker 1: him in the middle and put four guards around him.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So let me let me tell you break that down.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you what ended up happened, and then
Speaker 2: I'll break it down. So I'm gonna remind you of
Speaker 2: a guy by the name of Marcus Camby that I
Speaker 2: had a brother that you loved by the name of
Speaker 2: Doug Christy one that I drafted by the name of
Speaker 2: Tracy McGrady. I love point guard that was Rookie of
Speaker 2: the Year by name of Dane Stottlemyre. And then number
Speaker 2: fifteen Vince Carter. That's me them was the guys. Okay, Now,
Speaker 2: the idea that I had in Jim Kelly right now,
Speaker 2: who's with the Dallas Mavericks and Bob Zepphaloto, whose son
Speaker 2: Scott Zephalado runs the Hall of Fame. I brought those
Speaker 2: two gentlemen in and what I want to do in Toronto.
Speaker 2: We called it the Raptor two. And what was the
Speaker 2: Raptor too? The Raptor two was going to be a
Speaker 2: six seven to six ' nine power forward who had
Speaker 2: guard skills because if you remember offense back then, the
Speaker 2: four always pinned down on the two. So we wanted
Speaker 2: to be able to switch to four in the two,
Speaker 2: but we wanted on the offensive then that guard that four,
Speaker 2: who would have been McGrady or Carter or whatever, they
Speaker 2: would have guard skills down and now they can break
Speaker 2: it down. They can shoot the three, they can get
Speaker 2: to the basket. Guys like Oakley couldn't guard them on
Speaker 2: the perimeter. Had Damon Stottamayo, who could play high screen
Speaker 2: and roll with Marcus Camby, who could you know pass
Speaker 2: shoot to the now. When I saw Kevin Garnett, first
Speaker 2: time I saw him was in South Carolina, had a playground.
Speaker 2: He didn't even know I was there. He was playing
Speaker 2: outside and they had this little playground tournament. So I
Speaker 2: snuck down there and I'm watching this dude, Yeah, between
Speaker 2: the legs, behind the back, pulling up, shooting, you know,
Speaker 2: passing diamond, and I'm like, that's my raptor too. That
Speaker 2: that's who. I won't that's who. So Kevin Garnett, don't.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say this. Kevin Garnett also somehow ends up
Speaker 2: in Chicago and his coaches got my name is Anthony
Speaker 2: long Street, who I played with Inside Job. I can
Speaker 2: hear it. I can hear the Inside Job.
Speaker 3: And he ends up at Farragut on the West Side.
Speaker 1: And you know, aren't you from the West Side.
Speaker 3: You know his mom and everybody they they end up you.
Speaker 1: Know, in Chicago, someone had to roll their red carpetile
Speaker 1: for him.
Speaker 2: And so now you know, we're watching Garnett do his thing,
Speaker 2: and by that time, you know they you can draft
Speaker 2: high school players. The rules had changed, so I'm trying
Speaker 2: to figure out how can I get the players? So
Speaker 2: I had a meeting with the guys that I when
Speaker 2: I got the job. I had meeting with text Ram Elgin, Braidler,
Speaker 2: Jerry West, and Buddy Ryan the football coach. Football coaches.
Speaker 2: Why did I go to football?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 2: Because football drafts six rounds and Dallas was known for
Speaker 2: thinking outside the box. You may not remember a guy
Speaker 2: by the name of Bob Hayes, but Bob Hayes ran
Speaker 2: tracks a long time ago. Y'all. We wasn't even born,
Speaker 2: but they was known for, you know, drafting, you know,
Speaker 2: guys outside of their sport. So I wanted to know
Speaker 2: how and why they thought that. Way had to talk
Speaker 2: with him. Then I studied what the forty nine ers
Speaker 2: were doing, because what football does that basketball? Don't them?
Speaker 2: Guys in football? The amount of information that they're able
Speaker 2: to consume on a weekly basis is mind blowing. I
Speaker 2: mean when you look at the information that they're able
Speaker 2: to absorb and then come out, I mean they get
Speaker 2: volumes and volumes of books that they have to know tendencies,
Speaker 2: break down everything else. So when I looked at the
Speaker 2: coaching staffs. Right at that time, there was no such
Speaker 2: thing as an offensive coordinator defensive coordinator. We brought that
Speaker 2: in in Toronto, copy different football. And why did we
Speaker 2: do that because again, football went to specialization long before
Speaker 2: the NBA went to specialization, special teams, special teams. And
Speaker 2: then they have you know, quarterback coach, they have alignements coach,
Speaker 2: they have a running back coach. I mean their specialization,
Speaker 2: their breakdown and their information, their their quality control and
Speaker 2: all that. So I put all that together and now
Speaker 2: bring that to Toronto, and I see Kevin Garnett and
Speaker 2: I'm like, he the one. He got it all he got,
Speaker 2: he got the understanding, he's smart, you know, he's got
Speaker 2: the personality, he's got the motor, he's got the engine.
Speaker 2: He's got he's got everything that you're looking for. So
Speaker 2: I have this terminology I call ICE. It's hasham here.
Speaker 2: What's ice? Intensity concentration and energy. That's that's what we
Speaker 2: and that's what you look for. That's what separates the
Speaker 2: great player from the good player. You can high skill
Speaker 2: and all that, but can you put intensity, concentration and
Speaker 2: energy on top of that skill? And if you you
Speaker 2: can do that cool got something that was Kevin Garnett.
Speaker 2: And so now we're going through the draft. And you know,
Speaker 2: a while back, I told you Kevin Mchal and I
Speaker 2: are really good friends. So if you remember, you know,
Speaker 2: around Garnet's draft, there's a lot of bad talk around him.
Speaker 2: He's not this, he's dad. You know, he's he's a
Speaker 2: great player, but can you really trust him?
Speaker 3: You know character?
Speaker 4: You know all those Chicago So you didn't you weren't
Speaker 4: worried about none of that.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I was kind of helping that because
Speaker 2: I wanted to follow us. Right.
Speaker 1: So so I get a.
Speaker 2: Call from Micheale. Right, he goes, I, I need you
Speaker 2: to be honest with me. He goes, tell me about
Speaker 2: this kid, Garnett. I can't get a read on him.
Speaker 2: I said, Kevin, I'm not gonna lie to you. I said,
Speaker 2: if you don't draft him, I'm going to draft him. Right.
Speaker 2: He goes, you really would take him? I say absolutely?
Speaker 2: And I say he would be great with you. I said,
Speaker 2: but you know, if you don't take him, I'm definitely
Speaker 2: taking them. Everything else you're hearing around him is just
Speaker 2: just straight noise. He goes, all right, So he ends
Speaker 2: up taking Kevin. Now, why did I draft Damon Stottamayer?
Speaker 2: Who did Damon Stodamayer play for? Who was his head?
Speaker 2: That's what That's what I was supposed to go to Arizona.
Speaker 3: Did Rosberry will recruit you?
Speaker 2: Jesse Evans?
Speaker 3: Jesse Evans?
Speaker 2: Oh okay, okay, so yeah, so so so I called
Speaker 2: Rosboro up. I'm like, tell me about Damon, right, I
Speaker 2: can't miss. Damon becomes a Rookie of the Year. So
Speaker 2: that's how, that's how Garnett, you know, got started interesting
Speaker 2: quick hitters. First thing to come to mind.
Speaker 1: Let us know what you think top five point guards
Speaker 1: of all time?
Speaker 2: This is gonna be a good one. Well, I gotta
Speaker 2: go size in terms of category, because when you look
Speaker 2: at you know, Magic and Oscar Robertson right there, that's
Speaker 2: a different there. There was Oscar six six five, he
Speaker 2: was six five, but dude, like I mean strong, you know,
Speaker 2: have a triple double all of that, and so you know,
Speaker 2: I put them in a different category. So we're gonna
Speaker 2: say they're the best. And why are they the best?
Speaker 2: Because their size and their weight gives them an advantage
Speaker 2: over all of us six one dudes.
Speaker 3: Right now, when you get to small people my size.
Speaker 2: I'm one, two, three four infant that just you know,
Speaker 2: it's like, and why do I say that? Name me
Speaker 2: one guy my size who's done what I've done? Mm hmm,
Speaker 2: step boy, you got anything for me?
Speaker 5: I can't see nobody.
Speaker 4: And the reason why I separate you from a lot
Speaker 4: of point guards the same reason I separate Kobe from
Speaker 4: a lot of people, just that toughness, just being relenting,
Speaker 4: that being a winner. I I look at winning different.
Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying. I appreciate winning more than anything.
Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying. So I respect that. So
Speaker 4: that's why I separate you, because you have the toughness
Speaker 4: and to win. Everybody don't have that.
Speaker 1: Can you humor us real quick and give us you
Speaker 1: plus four more? Just kind of see what you're thinking.
Speaker 2: Is on the real right. So so I'm gonna go.
Speaker 2: If you listen, Steph Curry as a point guard, Yeah
Speaker 2: we are, we are okay, then Steph? We are right
Speaker 2: then Steph, because no one's done. He's done right from
Speaker 2: a championship winning standpoint.
Speaker 3: Now we've done it differently.
Speaker 2: But people all size right, you know, it's it's one
Speaker 2: and two right, and and if I was picking right,
Speaker 2: depending on what day, he may be one, because you
Speaker 2: know that, and man, it's intimidating when the guy stepp
Speaker 2: across half court and he can just let it go
Speaker 2: you and you're standing down in the layup line doing
Speaker 2: your layups, shooting mask court. That's intimidating. So it's a
Speaker 2: psychological effect that.
Speaker 3: He brings to the game.
Speaker 2: And then he's got he's got the intellect, he's got
Speaker 2: the he's got the smartness, he's got the toughness, he's
Speaker 2: got the he's got the character, he's got the pedigree,
Speaker 2: he's got the leadership. Agree he's got he's got all
Speaker 2: of that. Right, there's there there there's no flaws there.
Speaker 2: So you know what what I what I banked on
Speaker 2: right is again, I'm gonna out think you. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: concentrate you. I'm gonna you're going to make a mistake
Speaker 2: against me that allows me to beat you. Right. So
Speaker 2: Steph and I very similar in that way. We do
Speaker 2: it differently, right, and then we win, Like championships matter, okay,
Speaker 2: And I'm just talking all sides. So magic Oscar, they
Speaker 2: category right, that's how we put pucking Biggie somewhere else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh what now is that he's in the category.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's in there.
Speaker 4: So speaking of nas, is he still answering this?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Finish more so then and then I gotta go Stockton,
Speaker 2: Chris Paul. This is gonna be tough one, but I
Speaker 2: got I gotta throw j Kidd in there.
Speaker 3: You know, how can you not Well.
Speaker 2: People gonna say Nash one two m v ps and
Speaker 2: but but but Jason Kidd. You know he was a
Speaker 2: motherfucker boy.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, jig kid.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: When people say that Nash one to he did man,
Speaker 4: but shacking Kobe man, Man, Kobe should have won that.
Speaker 5: Man.
Speaker 2: But the rules, the rules again, that's the regular season award,
Speaker 2: But the rules changed. That's when the rules started changing
Speaker 2: where small people can start playing. So I was in actually,
Speaker 2: I was actually in the room with Mark Cuban the
Speaker 2: day he made that trade or didn't resign Nash. Were
Speaker 2: sitting in Dallas and it's Cuban and I were in
Speaker 2: the room and he's debating if if he should keep
Speaker 2: Nash and the rules hadn't changed yet, and you know,
Speaker 2: he had all his material and he was saying, you know,
Speaker 2: Nash is snowing slowing down a little bit. Uh, death
Speaker 2: was on the line. Definitely wanted, you know a little
Speaker 2: bit more money. Cubans like, I'm not sure, you know,
Speaker 2: And then he made the decision he wasn't gonna he
Speaker 2: wasn't going to resign Nash, and Nash went on to win,
Speaker 2: you know, MVP, but then he ended up being Jason
Speaker 2: Kidd and winning the championship. So do you want the
Speaker 2: MVP or do you want to win the championship? You
Speaker 2: want so, you know, Q made the decision smart. They
Speaker 2: ended up you know, winning the championship. But that's when
Speaker 2: the rules changed and the rules started favoring the smaller people,
Speaker 2: guards and everything else. They eliminated the hand check in
Speaker 2: you know, all that stuff. And you know D'Antoni gets
Speaker 2: credit for seven seconds or less. But that's not that's
Speaker 2: not fact free movement. That's not fact free movement. As
Speaker 2: a gentleman by the name of John McClinton, who I
Speaker 2: took into the Hall of Fame, John McClinton, who invented
Speaker 2: fast break basketball, and he invented seven seconds or less.
Speaker 2: I took John McClinton and his family into the Hall
Speaker 2: of Fame. The first hire I made in Toronto was
Speaker 2: John McClinton and they still have the John McClinton Award
Speaker 2: in Toronto and the first player to win it was
Speaker 2: Steve Nash out of Vancouver in Canada. But John McClinton
Speaker 2: invented seven seconds of less basketball. Now they give credit
Speaker 2: to d'An Toni.
Speaker 5: D'antonia and created ship.
Speaker 2: Jack don't like dantony he one ship always get a
Speaker 2: job now, but they come from John.
Speaker 5: McClinton, d Phony.
Speaker 2: You know, so let's let's let's be factual and get
Speaker 2: a credit where credit goes. Mark Jackson changed the game.
Speaker 2: John McClinton invented fast break basketball seven seconds.
Speaker 1: Never thought about it the way you broke down. But
Speaker 1: it makes complete sense about the Mark Jackson thing.
Speaker 2: YEP one album you listen to on repeat, Earth Wining
Speaker 2: fire Man, hold up. Don't do that to earth Win
Speaker 2: and fire. That's the way of the world. They West
Speaker 2: Side Boys went to Crane High School. Maurice White verdein
Speaker 2: that that's Chicago. I'm telling you that Chicago is deep.
Speaker 2: And when you look at the album, you look at
Speaker 2: the airic they you know, they they was talking to us.
Speaker 2: They was talking to us about nationality, birth rights, citizenship, spirituality.
Speaker 2: When you look at them pyramids and what they were
Speaker 2: to Hey, man, they were singing to you, Earth went
Speaker 2: and fire. Funniest thing that happened to you recently.
Speaker 3: The funniest thing that happened to me recently.
Speaker 2: You might have asked you for your ID when he
Speaker 2: was trying to get a drink. Funniest thing that happened
Speaker 2: to me recently. So I work on the NBA TV
Speaker 2: with Christian Letlow. Right, so I'm going through the Detroit Airport,
Speaker 2: going through the Detroit Airport and and you know, I'm
Speaker 2: playing golf with with these dudes at Oakland and this
Speaker 2: dude goes, oh.
Speaker 3: This guy goes, hey, ain't.
Speaker 2: You that dude that worked with Christian Letlow Detroit? I
Speaker 2: mean Detroit? Now my picture on the wall everything airport?
Speaker 3: When you go to.
Speaker 2: You know, ain't you that dude that were with Christian Letlo?
Speaker 3: I said yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: He goes, oh, man, I love her like she she's
Speaker 2: the best, she's great everything else. So I'm like, you know,
Speaker 2: he just going off. So you know, Letlo and now
Speaker 2: we're pretty tight. So I said, hey, you want to
Speaker 2: talk to her? He's like, oh yeah, so I dial
Speaker 2: up Letlo right right, So I give him the phone
Speaker 2: right So he now he starts asking her basketball questions like, hey,
Speaker 2: you know what, who you think gonna gonna win the
Speaker 2: championship this year?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 2: And and you know who you think the best players?
Speaker 2: And so I'm looking at this dude like, hey, man,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm Thomas.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm feeling some kind of way, but
Speaker 2: I'm playing it off, right because I know when I
Speaker 2: get the phone back, I'm gonna get an autograph or
Speaker 2: pictu or something. Right.
Speaker 3: So, now they get through talking.
Speaker 2: He had me the phone back and he goes, oh, man,
Speaker 2: you're so lucky you get to work with let Alone.
Speaker 2: I just I just love her and I just think
Speaker 2: she's the best, you know, really really thank you, you know,
Speaker 2: and good luck to you. And he walked away. I'm like,
Speaker 2: what the hell? Like what? So, so I would say,
Speaker 2: that's the funniest thing that that that kind of happened.
Speaker 3: I'm that dude that work with Christian Letlo.
Speaker 1: And you could be this next person the other Isaiah
Speaker 1: Thomas talk about just the confusion that is constantly goes
Speaker 1: between you two.
Speaker 2: Man, I love it when he gets criticized because being
Speaker 2: named after you. But so I'm I'm scouting, and uh,
Speaker 2: I think I'm still in New York at that time,
Speaker 2: and and I'm hearing about this this guard in Seattle
Speaker 2: by the name of Isaiah Isaiah Thomas, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: this guy, this can't be right, you know, like, and
Speaker 2: are you thinking, like is he mine? Or what you're thinking?
Speaker 2: It's a lot of stuff that you know, it's like
Speaker 2: not not not is he mine or anything like that,
Speaker 2: but it's like you do know, you know not, But
Speaker 2: it's like so so now you know, now I start
Speaker 2: you know, doing a little a little research, right, and
Speaker 2: so now I get the film and I'm watching him play,
Speaker 2: and I'm like this this joke is kind of good,
Speaker 2: like really good. So now they got the Pac ten tournament,
Speaker 2: you know, was here in l A, you know, a
Speaker 2: while back when he was coming out of school, and
Speaker 2: they came in and they was playing U C. L A.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, okay, well, you know, I.
Speaker 3: Want to meet this dude.
Speaker 2: So now his mom was at the game, and so
Speaker 2: his mom and his dad they come up, you know,
Speaker 2: they say hello, and you know, and then I finally
Speaker 2: get to meet him. And when I got to meet him,
Speaker 2: it was like, damn, like you, I feel like I
Speaker 2: really know you. I feel like I do feel like
Speaker 2: there's some you know, the universe talk to you, and
Speaker 2: there's some spirituality that you know. And I'm and so
Speaker 2: I'm really feeling this dude, like I hadn't been in
Speaker 2: his presence, but in his presence, I'm like, dude, like,
Speaker 2: you know, we we vibing on a totally different level. Right.
Speaker 2: And so now.
Speaker 3: He don't get drafted or he's the last pick in
Speaker 3: the draft.
Speaker 5: He's at the draft.
Speaker 2: He's at the draft, and and in my mind, I'm like,
Speaker 2: this dude can really play. I don't know why. I
Speaker 2: don't know why they tripping, and I don't know why
Speaker 2: the scouts are tripping, but this dude can really play
Speaker 2: and he should be in the NBA. So he gets
Speaker 2: drafted by Sacramento. Michael Malone is his coach. Now, I've
Speaker 2: known Michael Malone since he was this big Brendan Malone.
Speaker 2: His father, right, was my assistant coach in Detroit, and
Speaker 2: he was also my first hire as a coach in Toronto.
Speaker 2: So I've known the Malone family forever, right, So that's
Speaker 2: why you don't never hear me say nothing bad about
Speaker 2: Mike Malone and Malone family. So so now he's got
Speaker 2: cousins in Isaiah. And if you go back and you look,
Speaker 2: that's the best cousins has ever played. Best Isaiah ever played. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Bookie said that was his favorite coach you ever had. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: And so now I'm following Isaiah and everything else.
Speaker 3: So and now he goes to Boston. Now I'm all
Speaker 3: fucked up.
Speaker 2: I'm really messed up now because Isaiah Thomas.
Speaker 5: It's playing for Boston.
Speaker 2: It's playing for the Boston Celtics. And they love Isaiah
Speaker 2: in Boston love it. And I'm like this, this don't
Speaker 2: go to get it, don't just don't work. How is
Speaker 2: this working? And now he's breaking all kinds of records
Speaker 2: in Boston and I'm here Tommy Heyson talking about, Oh, Isaiah,
Speaker 2: he's the best, He's he's the greatest, and oh you
Speaker 2: got love that Isaiah Thomas. And I'm like, you know,
Speaker 2: what's the little girl who does the thing when she
Speaker 2: say make it make sense.
Speaker 4: Make it makes sense.
Speaker 3: I didn't mean to call you a little girl. I
Speaker 3: mean the woman.
Speaker 2: Forgive me.
Speaker 3: I'm old.
Speaker 2: So you know, but but anyway, it just it just
Speaker 2: what are the odds? What are the odds that a
Speaker 2: young man is named after you? And we know how
Speaker 2: hard it is to make it to the NBA. Right
Speaker 2: then he gets to the NBA then plays for the
Speaker 2: Boston Celtics, and y'all got the same name. I mean
Speaker 2: that that that is that is some spooky kind of
Speaker 2: stuff that's going up with your universe stuff.
Speaker 3: So we we're gonna make the Celtics love Isaiah work
Speaker 3: with me.
Speaker 1: Nice best Kobe story you can share with.
Speaker 3: Us, best Kobe story that I can share with you.
Speaker 2: So I'm in New York and Polenka, who I've known
Speaker 2: since he was in college and we used to our
Speaker 2: Detroit team used to go up and play against you
Speaker 2: know the five five, you know, Chris and all them,
Speaker 2: and Polenka was was there. So now Polenka's representing Kobe,
Speaker 2: and you know, Rob called me and he's like, you know,
Speaker 2: Kobe really wants to talk to you. He wants to
Speaker 2: you know, he wants to you know, understand how you think.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I've told him a lot about you know, Detroit, the
Speaker 2: bad Boys, everything else, and he wants to have a
Speaker 2: conversation with you. Now at that time, you know, Kobe
Speaker 2: is thinking about leaving in LA too, and he keeps
Speaker 2: saying it's not about the money. And in New York,
Speaker 2: all we had was a mid level to offer him. Now,
Speaker 2: he didn't visit I don't know if he visited any
Speaker 2: other teams, but he flew to New York to meet
Speaker 2: us to talk about signing with the Knicks, and all
Speaker 2: we had to offer was the mid level. But he
Speaker 2: was really like, I got to get out of LA
Speaker 2: and and I'm like, but Shack there right, And he
Speaker 2: was like, I want to win it on my own
Speaker 2: without Shack. That don't make no sense because if I
Speaker 2: win it with Shack, then I don't think I'm gonna
Speaker 2: be able.
Speaker 3: To rise the way I want a rise. And he says,
Speaker 3: so if.
Speaker 2: If i'm if Shaq is gone, or if I win
Speaker 2: at someplace else, then I can get to that next
Speaker 2: level or whatever level he was trying to get to.
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, so I've never heard any back
Speaker 2: like think like that. You know, that's it's kind of different.
Speaker 2: And Rob was sitting there and he goes, I told
Speaker 2: you this, He's a little different.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: He says, so you want to shoulder that burden all
Speaker 2: by yourself? He goes, yeah, and and so now you know,
Speaker 2: he starts talking to me about the pistons and thinking
Speaker 2: and being and and at that time, I don't know
Speaker 2: if y'all remember, but Kobe wasn't well liked by his teammates.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: And he wasn't a guy that you know, hung out
Speaker 2: or anything like that. You know, very disciplined, very regimented,
Speaker 2: work atthick and everything else. And he's like, you know,
Speaker 2: I want people to like me. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: I don't want to change. And so I was like,
Speaker 2: don't change. I said, you're doing it the right way.
Speaker 2: I said, I'm not sure if you can win without
Speaker 2: Shack though. That dude looked me straight in the eye,
Speaker 2: and he goes, whether I'm with Shack or not, because
Speaker 2: I prefer to not be with him, because I.
Speaker 3: Want to win it on my own.
Speaker 2: I said, good luck, young man. And so that's my
Speaker 2: Kobe story, right, And that left an impression on me
Speaker 2: in terms of someone having.
Speaker 3: A wheel and a determination.
Speaker 2: And when they lost to the Celtics in Boston that
Speaker 2: game seven, I think it was it was Game six
Speaker 2: or seven, the first one, the Celtics beat him, and
Speaker 2: if you remember, he was.
Speaker 3: Like six for thirty or yet he had like a really.
Speaker 2: Bad game, and in my mind, I'm like, it's gonna
Speaker 2: be hard to get up that heell. And then the
Speaker 2: next year he comes back and he stamp it with
Speaker 2: a back to back boom boom, without shot, without shock
Speaker 2: five and with gasol, and then he does this right,
Speaker 2: So I was like, yeah, I got three with shack,
Speaker 2: but I got it, I got stamped back to back. Now,
Speaker 2: I understood that feeling the back to back. It's okay
Speaker 2: to win one, but when you can come back and
Speaker 2: dominate again and let all y'all know I'm that dude
Speaker 2: again again and ain't no bs, that's what he was
Speaker 2: able to do. So I understood that feeling.
Speaker 1: Kobe to the next next question, Oh, we had no shot,
Speaker 1: but of the idea and the respect right that he
Speaker 1: would even entertain it, And that never got out. So
Speaker 1: you had breaking news on all the smoke.
Speaker 2: God damn, I appreciate you. You got the stories that
Speaker 2: ain't got out. You know that we know that Jack.
Speaker 2: You should tell him the one about when you when
Speaker 2: you almost got ran out of this league.
Speaker 5: Where at an Indie.
Speaker 2: And yeah, remember that call you made to me and
Speaker 2: I called the commissioner up.
Speaker 4: Man, I forgot about that.
Speaker 2: You was out. I was done.
Speaker 3: You was done. You was done.
Speaker 4: I was done so many times. But y'all remember that.
Speaker 2: And and you you said, I called you from AL.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's how I got in touch with you.
Speaker 3: And I called David Stern. I said, you can't do
Speaker 3: that to him.
Speaker 2: I was done. You was out.
Speaker 3: I remember that you was gone. M that's how you
Speaker 3: got back in the league.
Speaker 2: I was done.
Speaker 5: You remember that.
Speaker 3: I guess that you should tell that story.
Speaker 4: I actually forgot about that, but I remember vividly now. Yeah,
Speaker 4: because I was I was trying to call everybody that
Speaker 4: I figured would.
Speaker 5: Help me at that time. Yeah, and Al saved me, saved.
Speaker 2: Me, Isaiah saved I mean I say.
Speaker 4: Saved me, but say you know what I mean, saved.
Speaker 5: Me, but connected me to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And and you got back out on the court.
Speaker 2: How many how many weeks after that? Three? Thank you?
Speaker 5: Three weeks.
Speaker 1: I was in the midst of you already suspended.
Speaker 3: He was gone.
Speaker 2: I was done.
Speaker 5: I was at home already, he was suspended.
Speaker 3: The wheels were greased and he was out.
Speaker 5: Huh.
Speaker 4: I don't I think I called ghostbusters. No, I ain't
Speaker 4: called ghostbusters. I ain't called ghostbusters. Donny Wall, I remember
Speaker 4: Donny wallh Zeke and.
Speaker 5: Uh Mike Brown.
Speaker 4: That's the only people that went the wall for me
Speaker 4: that I did, I remember vividly remember.
Speaker 1: But the only one that got to David Stern the ear. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I went to that man's office.
Speaker 2: M hmm.
Speaker 3: I can't do that.
Speaker 2: Then, that's dope.
Speaker 3: That's not going to happen.
Speaker 4: Minute my show was gone to I was gone.
Speaker 2: I've seen it. I was done.
Speaker 4: If you could see one guests on our show.
Speaker 5: O G, who would it be?
Speaker 2: Michael Jordan's put him in the seat, tell them to
Speaker 2: come sit here and answer the question.
Speaker 5: Whoever the person is to help us get him on.
Speaker 2: That's not a question, that's not a question. No, you
Speaker 2: love his shoe, you love it?
Speaker 4: Jingle yeah, y'all yeah, boxes, I'm still signed y'all his number.
Speaker 2: You know, y'all, somebody.
Speaker 4: That you can help us get on the show that
Speaker 4: you would like to see on our show. Because I
Speaker 4: didn't hit him a million times now, that ain't going
Speaker 4: as pan.
Speaker 5: That's that's how as quick as we wanted to.
Speaker 3: So here's real talk, right, we in this brotherhood.
Speaker 2: Should have to go to the loopholes. Our job and
Speaker 2: our responsibility is to come here and help you uplifts preach.
Speaker 2: That is our responsibility. That classified as black in the
Speaker 2: United States of America. Our job is to come and
Speaker 2: help each other. Now that being said, he needs to
Speaker 2: sit here. Now who else? Who else? Who else?
Speaker 3: Would I want you to see?
Speaker 1: We got a co run. You just topped off a
Speaker 1: cold run. We have magic Chuck and then you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I got How about this? Y'all deserve it?
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 5: I got a request, though.
Speaker 4: It's different from me, Like I've been knowing about this
Speaker 4: guy when his teammates my whole life, and I've been
Speaker 4: in I've been in little tournaments where he saved me
Speaker 4: as a youngster. Joe Dumas, Joe been knowing me since
Speaker 4: I was a kid. Yeah, I'm playing in the Lake.
Speaker 5: Charles tournaments, basketball tournaments.
Speaker 2: Joe is a legend.
Speaker 5: Yes, I would love to get a chance to pick
Speaker 5: his brand and.
Speaker 4: Get to know him because I never had a conversation
Speaker 4: with him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's someone that you's have in his chair and
Speaker 2: he can be official season. Yes, you know he wants
Speaker 2: the Pistons, right, he's in the league office. The bad boys.
Speaker 2: The Sportsmanship Trophy, we're so bad. It's named after Joe.
Speaker 2: So the influence that we've had on this NBA that
Speaker 2: they don't give us credit for, talk about, right, Joe
Speaker 2: would be great.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you one more question. I mean we're dumb,
Speaker 1: but I mean you're just so open right now. We
Speaker 1: may never get this opportunity again. Why do you think
Speaker 1: And this sit down has been so eye opening, mind opening,
Speaker 1: and I've learned so much. Where did the bad narrative
Speaker 1: about you come from?
Speaker 2: Because I had the audacity to come into this league
Speaker 2: and ask.
Speaker 3: For diversity.
Speaker 2: And I said to the media, when I came into
Speaker 2: the NBA, it was ninety nine point nine percent white
Speaker 2: male coverage or no females, and it may be a
Speaker 2: one brother point one.
Speaker 3: Right, And.
Speaker 2: I said, I do not want to be judged or
Speaker 2: perceived only through the gaze of the white male. Is
Speaker 2: eighty That that that that debt And I went to
Speaker 2: the Commissioner's office. Well, Stern already charged me not to
Speaker 2: cut you off with this there this, So I came
Speaker 2: in under Larry O'Brien and then Larry left, David came
Speaker 2: in and to Stern's credit, this is what Stern did.
Speaker 2: Big respect to David Stern, because what David Stern did
Speaker 2: for NBA basketball in to America is David Stern said,
Speaker 2: black players classified as black in the United States. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna put them out front the center. Your researcher, Sports Illustrated.
Speaker 2: You can pull it up Sports Illustrated. On the cover
Speaker 2: of Sports Illustrated, will white America except the NBA's black players. Wow,
Speaker 2: that was the article that was the cover, and David
Speaker 2: Stern said, boom, I'm putting it there now. Now I'm
Speaker 2: following up, and I'm saying, we need some black coverage,
Speaker 2: you know, we need some some brothers. You know where
Speaker 2: they at in Detroit And it still may be to
Speaker 2: this day. I was making so much noise. They gave
Speaker 2: us two black beat writers, and I think Detroit at
Speaker 2: that time was the only team traveling with two black
Speaker 2: beat writers. Terry Foster, who's a columnist now True Sharp
Speaker 2: who passed away, became a columnist, Clifton Brown became a columnist,
Speaker 2: Brian Burrowell became a columnist. Jeanette Howard became a columnist
Speaker 2: that was Detroit, traveling around the NBA and Detroit today,
Speaker 2: I think they still have two black beat writers on
Speaker 2: the beat now, and I think Beard just got promoted
Speaker 2: to a columnist or he may even be an editor.
Speaker 2: So why do I get so much trouble Because a
Speaker 2: lot of the white males at that time who were
Speaker 2: writing didn't like what I was saying, and they thought
Speaker 2: that I was coming after their jobs or what have you.
Speaker 2: And back then, they painted all the pictures. They painted
Speaker 2: all the pictures, and not only did they paint the pictures,
Speaker 2: but after they so you would get interviewed, they would
Speaker 2: write down what you say, and then they would take
Speaker 2: it to an editor, and one hundred percent of the
Speaker 2: editors were white males, and then the editor would fritique
Speaker 2: what you said, and then they were put in the newspaper.
Speaker 2: And that's what you said, nothing like what came out
Speaker 2: of my mouth. Right, sometimes it was right, sometimes it
Speaker 2: was wrong. Whatever. So, and then the second thing is,
Speaker 2: y'all former players at that time when I became vice
Speaker 2: president and president of the union, agents at that time.
Speaker 3: Were taken twenty percent off the top.
Speaker 2: Damn, that's crazy. As for a player contracts. They were
Speaker 2: taking fifty percent on endorsements. So I put in this
Speaker 2: thing called agent certification, and I cut the fees from
Speaker 2: twenty percent to a negotiated four and then we slotted
Speaker 2: the salaries and we uniformed the contract in terms of language.
Speaker 2: I retired in ninety four and locked y'all out in
Speaker 2: ninety five.
Speaker 1: He said, they locked it out and they winked.
Speaker 3: Damn one more time. I retired in ninety four.
Speaker 2: They locked you out in ninety five, and then they
Speaker 2: started clawing back and taking everything that you once had,
Speaker 2: and then they start putting other people in place. So
Speaker 2: between the agent's narrative and some of the script writers,
Speaker 2: and so I want you to go back and look
Speaker 2: up this word. It's called hegemony.
Speaker 5: How you spelled it?
Speaker 2: H egm n y y'all get that fun me you
Speaker 2: don't need it, Jiminy and a hedgemont right. The scriptwriters,
Speaker 2: those who create the narrative, those who influence, those who
Speaker 2: tell you not to like me, and like that one.
Speaker 2: You don't know why you don't like me, You just know, well,
Speaker 2: it's just something I don't know. Did they look for
Speaker 2: any reason? You know? It's you know you know, but
Speaker 2: it's always some whatever it is, right, But you remember
Speaker 2: that word and you go back and you look at it, Jiminy,
Speaker 2: and put that in your definitions and start talking to
Speaker 2: people about it. But bring that that we're back into play,
Speaker 2: because that's what's happening in the NBA and these narratives
Speaker 2: and these.
Speaker 3: Stories and everything else.
Speaker 2: You know, from an educational standpoint, we need to know
Speaker 2: what the script writers are saying, how we being scripted,
Speaker 2: how were being spoken to and spoken about? The last
Speaker 2: thing I'm leading with in terms of the thing that
Speaker 2: I attacked and still attacked today. Language carries outside of
Speaker 2: the plan field. So these ugly labels that they attached
Speaker 2: to the Detroit Pistons. Bill Lambert had never been called
Speaker 2: a thug in his life, grew up in the suburbs,
Speaker 2: his father and a fortune five hundred company. He gets
Speaker 2: to the Detroit Pistons and they call Bill Lamber a thug.
Speaker 2: And we know what thug means outside of the game
Speaker 2: of basketball. So these dirty labels that they're attached to
Speaker 2: us right in all way of play. And then Detroit
Speaker 2: being the city that it is in all black city,
Speaker 2: So the language that they used around us and the
Speaker 2: narrative that they painted around us. Right, And when you
Speaker 2: try to refute those labels bad person, you're a bad person.
Speaker 2: You got pushed down further and further. Right, So.
Speaker 3: You know the.
Speaker 2: I had never been called a thug in my life,
Speaker 2: and I've said to civil writers along the way, don't
Speaker 2: ever call me a beast, don't ever call me an animal.
Speaker 2: Don't use dehumanizing words and terms to describe the way
Speaker 2: I play. That's not who I am, that's not what
Speaker 2: I represent. You're smart, you went to college, you're a journalists.
Speaker 5: You have a.
Speaker 2: Degree, you have a pretty vast vocabulary. You can find
Speaker 2: better words and language to use around the way I play.
Speaker 2: So I get drafted, I'm a restricted free agent. Then
Speaker 2: I become free. Let that sit with you for a minute.
Speaker 2: After I gain my freedom, now I can go anywhere. Okay,
Speaker 2: Now you can fantasize about you can trade me, you
Speaker 2: can bet on me, you can gamble on me, you
Speaker 2: can you can say words to me inside this place
Speaker 2: that no one would dare say outside of this place
Speaker 2: to me. So we're in a very slippery slope here,
Speaker 2: and the dehumanization of the NBA player needs to be uplifted. Now,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna give Adam Silver a big hand because what
Speaker 2: he said the other day, which he's getting heavily criticized
Speaker 2: for in terms of load management. Right, the first word
Speaker 2: that came out of Adam Silver's mouth was.
Speaker 3: These guys are what human? These are human beings.
Speaker 2: That's what he said. Oh oh oh, these guys, these
Speaker 2: guys ain't human they.
Speaker 3: Player did it?
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, that commission is right. He wants
Speaker 2: to treat them like human beings. And he actually used
Speaker 2: the word human being. And you have one player right
Speaker 2: now who just left Brooklyn, and he keeps saying, don't
Speaker 2: dehumanize me.
Speaker 3: Words carry weight.
Speaker 2: Words carry weight, and it's important how you define read
Speaker 2: talk about me.
Speaker 3: I don't accept it. I push back on a lot
Speaker 3: of No.
Speaker 2: You can't speak to me that way. You can't talk
Speaker 2: to me that way. You can't say this to me. No,
Speaker 2: I'm not that. Oh well, when you talk to Isaiah Man,
Speaker 2: you know that now, Yeah, you come correct. Yes, I'm
Speaker 2: not accepting you calling me the N word, y'all can say,
Speaker 2: don't look in the dictionary. This is what it says. Right,
Speaker 2: don't call me that now, if you want to call
Speaker 2: your friend that you wanna call somebody, But don't call
Speaker 2: me that, because when I was growing up, if you
Speaker 2: call me that, we fighting. I'm fighting you every day
Speaker 2: no matter how much melanine you have in your skin
Speaker 2: or the lack of melanine you have in your skin.
Speaker 2: You call me that, it's on Don't call me that
Speaker 2: on the internet. Don't call me that on social media.
Speaker 2: Never ever ever call your mama that. Don't call me that, right,
Speaker 2: I'm not that. And how we speak to each other,
Speaker 2: how we treat each other, how we interact with each other,
Speaker 2: real talk. Taking it all the way back to the gangs.
Speaker 2: They weren't called gangs until they got labeled gangs. They
Speaker 2: were organizations in the community teaching us how to be
Speaker 2: upstanding citizens, live, act, treat each other. Then Big brother
Speaker 2: put some stuff in our neighborhood. Big Brothers started doing
Speaker 2: a lot of other stuff in our neighborhoods. And it's
Speaker 2: all documented. But you know the words that are being
Speaker 2: used right now. We can do better. Absolutely, man.
Speaker 1: We appreciate you, especially straight off a flight to come
Speaker 1: here and sit down and spend some time with us,
Speaker 1: and like I said, and just enlighten us. You know,
Speaker 1: I learned a lot today and I appreciate.
Speaker 3: I got some free stuff.
Speaker 2: You got some gears. But this this is one thing
Speaker 2: that all of us want, right. Don't give me no money. Okay,
Speaker 2: we won't gear. Do you want gear?
Speaker 3: You want the money, We take the gear over the money, right.
Speaker 2: Gear.
Speaker 5: We got some manscape, we got your body buffer.
Speaker 4: You know, we got some all the Smoke T shirt
Speaker 4: and sweatshirt, just some limited edition all the smoke gear
Speaker 4: for you.
Speaker 5: Will appreciate you showing up. Thank you off the plane.
Speaker 3: O G thank you.
Speaker 2: I got you so much. Man. We appreciate you than.
Speaker 3: I send you a bottle of champagne.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I had one for you.
Speaker 2: Well that's a wrap man.
Speaker 1: Isaiah Thomas, the one and only, the real Zeke All
Speaker 1: the Smoke, Showtime Basketball YouTube, and the iHeart Platform Black Effects.
Speaker 2: We'll see y'all next week