Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies these episodes are based on. These are our stories.
Speaker 2: Done done, Hello, that's messed up. I'm Lisa Traeger.
Speaker 1: And I am Kara Klink And this is the podcast
Speaker 1: where we take you through an episode of Law and
Speaker 1: Order SVU, discuss the true crime that it's based on,
Speaker 1: and then give you a hard hitting interview with one
Speaker 1: of the actors from the show. But first we chit chat.
Speaker 1: But first we talk. It's almost twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: We are almost dragging ourselves on our forearms out of
Speaker 2: this horrible year.
Speaker 1: I mean, this has been a good year for me
Speaker 1: in some ways. And that we started this podcast, that's
Speaker 1: been a really fun a plus to twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Without this podcast, I don't know what else I
Speaker 2: would have. Yeah, really, I no. I mean, I feel
Speaker 2: like my hair is getting long and that's pretty exciting. So,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm really grasping it. Positives for twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: I'm getting very good at bat gammon. That's been a
Speaker 2: number one activity. I got it.
Speaker 1: They should make a Queen's gambit. That's like Lisa with backgammon.
Speaker 1: I would loving international tournaments.
Speaker 2: Well, did I tell you my father wanted me to
Speaker 2: be a chess girl when I was growing up, and
Speaker 2: we would go to the library and rent chess books
Speaker 2: and he would force me to play. Of course. I mean,
Speaker 2: isn't that just like Russia.
Speaker 1: That's like how I don't know, It's like how people
Speaker 1: in the US want their kids to like read before
Speaker 1: other people.
Speaker 2: I think in Russia it's like you need to be
Speaker 2: good at chess. Yeah, my sister and I were just
Speaker 2: reminiscing in her backyard with the fire and how my
Speaker 2: dad would he he worked at the pool, so he
Speaker 2: would force me to sit at the pool, but I
Speaker 2: couldn't go in the water, and I had to read
Speaker 2: and write out of an encyclopedia until he thought it
Speaker 2: was and then I would I would be able to
Speaker 2: go swim. I mean, I feel like I turned out
Speaker 2: pretty fucking good for everything that's happened to me. Considering
Speaker 2: my big story this year, as my dad was going
Speaker 2: into heart surgery and I did say I love you
Speaker 2: and he did not say it back. And my friend
Speaker 2: was like, you need to tell people that when you
Speaker 2: meet them, so then they understand you as a human
Speaker 2: a little bit better. I've never heard I love you
Speaker 2: from your father. Oh my my.
Speaker 1: I did not grow up in a big I love
Speaker 1: you household either. We really started saying it later in life,
Speaker 1: where I was like, why don't we say it? My
Speaker 1: mom was like, I don't know. I always grew up
Speaker 1: thinking that people say it too much. And I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: that because she's Hungarian, right, No, that's my dad side.
Speaker 2: Because my mom says that too about my sister's family.
Speaker 2: She goes, Ugh, they just say it all the time,
Speaker 2: like it disgusts her.
Speaker 1: That because it starts to lose meaning if you say
Speaker 1: it like all the time, like bye, love you, bye,
Speaker 1: I love you, love you, love you like all the time,
Speaker 1: it starts to lose me. I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I say it to my kid. I scream it in
Speaker 1: her face constantly. I'm like, you know, I love you
Speaker 1: so much. She's so lovable. I hope she has a
Speaker 1: great twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: I hope so too. She's just gonna have her second
Speaker 2: pandemic birthday pretty soon. It's gonna be great. But New
Speaker 2: Year's for US is like Christmas in the Russian for
Speaker 2: the Russians, we give presents, we get a new Year's tree,
Speaker 2: we celebrate the old year. We eat meat jello, we
Speaker 2: celebrate the last year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you need to stop and back it
Speaker 1: up and let's talk about meat jello.
Speaker 2: My every New Year, our fridge is just filled with
Speaker 2: like bowls of clear It's exactly like I wish it
Speaker 2: was a sitting you know. It's it's just ground beef
Speaker 2: in jello. It's like chunks of chicken with pepper in
Speaker 2: a sea through jelly, hard form in a bowl.
Speaker 1: Okay, so not sweet jello, No, no, no, no, a savory jello.
Speaker 1: It's a savory you know, it's a savory jello. You're okay,
Speaker 1: it's a savory jello.
Speaker 2: Got it? Did you ever eat the jellos that were
Speaker 2: pink and red at the store, in those the combo flavors.
Speaker 2: Yeah them.
Speaker 1: So my parents wouldn't really buy as cello, but I
Speaker 1: feel like I found a way to get those somehow.
Speaker 2: We would make it from the powders. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, See, my mom's not a big maker like we
Speaker 1: did big cupcakes.
Speaker 2: We didn't do that kind of stuff. Well, you know,
Speaker 2: so I grew up. Were your parents good cooks?
Speaker 3: Mmmm?
Speaker 2: My dad is terrible. My mom is like fine. Well,
Speaker 2: because our friend Lauren, I didn't know this, but her
Speaker 2: family is notoriously bad at cooking, to the point where
Speaker 2: the grand they would leave their grandma's house and be sick,
Speaker 2: puke and have to go to the hospital. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: did you know this? I did not. That is some
Speaker 2: Irish insanity. She said she made burneise sauce, but it
Speaker 2: was just microwaved mayonnaise, and then she served it and
Speaker 2: the children got sick and like, my god, Oh my god.
Speaker 2: I literally had to just put my hand over my
Speaker 2: mouth for a second. Yeah, no, it's bad. It's uh
Speaker 2: my because even though meet Jelly Aside and meet Jello Aside,
Speaker 2: I own you Min's cooking. I really love it.
Speaker 1: Tell me more about this Russian New Year. I feel
Speaker 1: like I learned so much about Russia from you.
Speaker 2: Will we do presents, and our family alone liked to
Speaker 2: do a theme, and so we would wear we all
Speaker 2: wore ties one year. Well, that's definitely stayed with you.
Speaker 2: Lisa loves a theme. I do I do. One year,
Speaker 2: we all dressed like movie stars and I did a
Speaker 2: Gwyneth Paltrow at the Oscars look. I dressed like Madonna
Speaker 2: one year. Maybe we did musicians. Yeah, and then yeah,
Speaker 2: everyone gets hammered, except for me because I was a kid.
Speaker 2: But it was weird growing up because for everyone New
Speaker 2: Year's is like, you know, we're doing clubbing and you're like,
Speaker 2: I'll be with my family dressed as Gwyneth Paltrow. Yeah.
Speaker 2: What do you normally do you raise New Years? I
Speaker 2: usually just rage. I mean I have literally I threw
Speaker 2: when I was in high school, I threw parties when
Speaker 2: my parents were out of town. When I was in college,
Speaker 2: I would meet up with my college friends and just
Speaker 2: get blacked. They left you alone over New Year's all
Speaker 2: those kids.
Speaker 1: No, they took my brothers them to Ireland and left
Speaker 1: me home with my brother and my sister. But they
Speaker 1: were staying at different places, and so I was staying
Speaker 1: with my mom's best friend.
Speaker 2: But I was a sophomore.
Speaker 1: My friends could drive, so they just picked me up
Speaker 1: and brought me back to my house.
Speaker 2: We don't even have locks on my house. Please don't
Speaker 2: google where my parents live. There's nothing worth stealing.
Speaker 1: But like, my house is never locked, so It's like
Speaker 1: I just let myself in and just had a party.
Speaker 2: I would like to share with everyone my favorite Papa
Speaker 2: Clank story, which is he refuses to pay for a
Speaker 2: garbage disposal, so he takes his garbage to the dump.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, how much is he saving money? You
Speaker 2: know what, his car? You can tell it from his
Speaker 2: car and you can smell. It's probably saving twelve dollars.
Speaker 1: I have no idea, but it's just one facet of
Speaker 1: his insanity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do we do? We were talking like do
Speaker 2: we even talk about resolutions? Hopefully, no one has a
Speaker 2: resolution except to survive.
Speaker 1: I mean, like I've said before, I feel like we
Speaker 1: can only go up from here. And I'm I'm really
Speaker 1: entering twenty twenty one with positivity and hope.
Speaker 2: I hope soul cycle opens up soon.
Speaker 1: On that name of positivity, I do have to let
Speaker 1: you know that today's episode is called Burned, is a
Speaker 1: pretty graphic episode. I know we say this a lot
Speaker 1: because you know, most of what we talk about relating
Speaker 1: to SVU is traumatic and upsetting, but this episode, you know,
Speaker 1: just wanted to give everyone a heads up. This is
Speaker 1: a season eight, episode eleven. Why don't we just get going.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Burned. Let's get into Burned. This is
Speaker 1: a horrific episode based on a horrific crime.
Speaker 2: This episode has haunted me since it's come out, Like
Speaker 2: I think about it regularly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember it being one of those and it's
Speaker 1: one of those episodes too, where it kind of ends
Speaker 1: and you're like, you don't really know what happened like that,
Speaker 1: Well you do, but let me, let me get into it.
Speaker 1: So this is essentially a very like a custody battle episode,
Speaker 1: he said, She said episode. Blair Underwood plays Miles, the
Speaker 1: very hot Blair Underwood that we all know from Text
Speaker 1: and the City doctor Robert Lee.
Speaker 2: Doctor Well because I obviously loved him in that show
Speaker 2: and he's so hot. But he said I love you
Speaker 2: in a cookie cake and everyone's like that's sweet, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's bad because I had an X onece
Speaker 2: right down I love you, and we never said it
Speaker 2: to each other, which puts the pressure on me and
Speaker 2: you don't get to do anything. Yeah, you just write
Speaker 2: it and then I have to respond fuck you. So
Speaker 2: I purposely didn't say it because I was like, I
Speaker 2: pretend to say somebody texting you, I love you, for
Speaker 2: the first time instead of saying it. So it's like
Speaker 2: I didn't like whatever, Let's get Back.
Speaker 1: The City podcast, which is a bit available on our Patreon.
Speaker 1: No okay, So Blair Underwood plays Miles. His ex wife
Speaker 1: is a woman named Valerie, who is played by the
Speaker 1: beautiful Michael Michelle. Like just a stunningly gorgeous woman. Uh,
Speaker 1: and they have a daughter named Tessa. So at the
Speaker 1: beginning of the show opens with Tessa is whether her
Speaker 1: dad on a court appointed or a court supervised visit?
Speaker 2: Excuse me? And you can tell they have a close relationship,
Speaker 2: but like yeah, he's like, are you working out so
Speaker 2: you can get boyfriends? And it's like that's not a
Speaker 2: thing to say. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So there at this visit, the court appointed supervisor cuts
Speaker 1: the visit short, and as she's leaving, the daughter says
Speaker 1: to the dad, like, what's a Dallas headhunter? So it's
Speaker 1: very clear that which is like girls, shut up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's basically relaying information because these parents do not talk.
Speaker 1: This is like a very contentious divorce.
Speaker 2: I was also wondering why did the court appointed woman
Speaker 2: make the visit shorter, Like this is very missus doubt fire,
Speaker 2: But it's not a mom doing it, like, oh, I
Speaker 2: have to go here, there's a dinner. Why is this
Speaker 2: woman doing that? Well, they get into that later.
Speaker 1: What that They say, it's an abuse of her power,
Speaker 1: Like she's really she's taking it upon herself to say,
Speaker 1: Tessa's struggling in school, so I'm going to just take
Speaker 1: her out of her visit early, which is not cool.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so the Dallas headhunter thing is like kind
Speaker 1: of the last thing we hear. It's a little bit
Speaker 1: of a tip off. And then back at the Valerie's apartment.
Speaker 2: Way to get this going, it's just so funny. Yeah,
Speaker 2: who talks about Dallas. I don't know, I just I
Speaker 2: want to. I want to be in the writer's room
Speaker 2: when they're like what do we say?
Speaker 1: Yeah, like something has to tip him off that they
Speaker 1: might be leaving town. Yeah, So we get to Valerie's
Speaker 1: apartment where she's showering and she is pulled out of
Speaker 1: the showers psycho style, like very scary. And then the
Speaker 1: next thing we see is Benson and Sabler interviewing her
Speaker 1: about her rape. She says that it was her soon
Speaker 1: to be ex husband, Miles, So they're in the process
Speaker 1: of a divorce I suppose I didn't. I thought that
Speaker 1: they were already divorce, but they're in the process. So
Speaker 1: she has a protection order against Miles and that's why
Speaker 1: the visits are supervised, and so they're trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how even how he even got into the apartment
Speaker 1: because he's not supposed to know where they live and
Speaker 1: he's and there was no forced entry, so he obviously
Speaker 1: had a key somehow.
Speaker 2: So and she also said he's addicted to drugs and alcomy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's had previous issues with drugs and alcohol.
Speaker 1: Apparently he's supposed to be sober now. And she tells
Speaker 1: him about how she had an order of protection against
Speaker 1: him and it was said to expire, but an extension
Speaker 1: was not granted. So then we go they go and
Speaker 1: they talk to this judge who's the one that did
Speaker 1: not grant the extension on the order of protection. He
Speaker 1: immediately uses the word feminazis, so I immediately hate him, like,
Speaker 1: what a stupid.
Speaker 2: Boomer word to use to talk about feminists. And this
Speaker 2: is the judge that looks like the old schlubby man
Speaker 2: that would be at Shull, you know, it's Hassover, and
Speaker 2: he is just just like gross his shirt's disheveled. He's,
Speaker 2: you know, eating some apples and honey in the corner, right,
Speaker 2: that's his vibe. And he is like, she's watched too
Speaker 2: many women in Jeopardy movies and it's like, oh, do
Speaker 2: you mean life, Like women are constantly in Jeopardy, Like
Speaker 2: I don't understand you working in the courts and see this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then he introduces the idea of silver bullet strategy,
Speaker 1: which is something I've never heard of, which is apparently
Speaker 1: like in divorces, to say that you've been sexually assaulted
Speaker 1: in your divorce proceedings by your husband. And Stabler actually
Speaker 1: says that his wife's lawyer, who he is in the
Speaker 1: middle of a divorce right now in this episode.
Speaker 2: Wow's that's the meat.
Speaker 1: They're weaving in and out of the story with Stabler
Speaker 1: and his wife having their divorce looming, and Sabler says
Speaker 1: his wife's lawyer suggested it as a strategy and that
Speaker 1: she turned it down.
Speaker 2: And I was like, I find it hard to believe
Speaker 2: that lawyers are telling women to just like, oh, just
Speaker 2: say you were raped and you'll get custody of your
Speaker 2: kids or whatever.
Speaker 1: That seems insane. But the law is crazy. Who knows,
Speaker 1: So Benson is stabler. This is very This is a
Speaker 1: very contentious episode between the two of them.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, because since Maloney is going through the divorce.
Speaker 1: Of course he has the man's Yeah, he's very much
Speaker 1: on the man's side. Benson's very much on the woman's side.
Speaker 1: And then Munch and Finn go to speak to this
Speaker 1: court appointed supervisor, who you know is a very She
Speaker 1: is very like Missus Doubtfire. She's like, very similar to
Speaker 1: the woman in Missus Doutfire. He's like, I think that's
Speaker 1: the classical list. Yeah, if you're going to tell a
Speaker 1: dad he can't hang out with his children, she's like
Speaker 1: severe looking white woman with a tight butN and she is.
Speaker 1: She's like, yeah, he definitely harasses the mother. He stays
Speaker 1: within five he doesn't go within the five hundred feet,
Speaker 1: but he's around that. You see him like whatever, And
Speaker 1: he gets violent at visits. But then this is kind
Speaker 1: of how the show doesn't make anything black and white here,
Speaker 1: because Finn's like, you shouldn't be cutting those visits short.
Speaker 1: It's not your job to assess his behavior, and like that,
Speaker 1: he's you know, if he's doing something violent to the daughter. Sure,
Speaker 1: but he's only getting violent at you because you're cutting
Speaker 1: the visit short and that's why he's getting mad.
Speaker 2: So but I also saw because I saw that side,
Speaker 2: because even in the top of the episode, I was like, fuck,
Speaker 2: fuck this woman, like why are you ending the visits?
Speaker 2: But then on my notes, I wrote, like she is
Speaker 2: scared of him, Michael. Michelle is scared of him, and
Speaker 2: how is that not enough? And why aren't we taking
Speaker 2: women's fear seriously right? Like she's not why is her
Speaker 2: fear not enough? Right?
Speaker 1: And they people look at it as like, no, it's
Speaker 1: a war for the child and she's just trying to
Speaker 1: win it at all costs.
Speaker 2: That's like what the other side was. You know what
Speaker 2: I hate with this war thing. When the cops were like, well,
Speaker 2: let's get around how can we get around parental consent
Speaker 2: to interview the daughter?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's coming up, I was like, yeah, so that's
Speaker 1: exactly where we are. So they they can't talk to
Speaker 1: Tessa because Valerie won't allow it, so they just go
Speaker 1: to her school to speak to her, and like, which
Speaker 1: is insane. I think that's insane and like illegal, but like.
Speaker 2: They do this all time. There's another episode where the
Speaker 2: daughter told the nurse, the school nurse and malloney and
Speaker 2: Ben's like, we don't give a fuck, you go anyway, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and like ruin the secrecy medical codes, and they just
Speaker 2: will break any rules, medical secret codes. They just will
Speaker 2: try to get a kid to talk and ignore all
Speaker 2: the parents. And a part of me is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're helping, but it's like, what you can't do this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, but Tessa says, like, there's she did not give
Speaker 1: the dad the key, you know, and she they think
Speaker 1: she's hiding something, but she he hides the key in
Speaker 1: the backpack or not hid she just puts He says,
Speaker 1: she keeps her key in the backpack. So now we
Speaker 1: know that the key is accessible to him, and there's
Speaker 1: he easily could have made a copy of it at
Speaker 1: some point.
Speaker 2: I don't really know how during a.
Speaker 1: Visit, but he could have Benson as Sabler going to
Speaker 1: talk to Miles. He admits that he's a recovering alcoholic,
Speaker 1: a drug addict, said that there's no way he raped
Speaker 1: his ex wife. He wouldn't touch her with a like
Speaker 1: a ten foot pole. He agrees to take a polygraph,
Speaker 1: so he seems very convincing in his innocence, like admitting
Speaker 1: to a polygraph, Like he's like, you can do anything
Speaker 1: you want, Like I didn't do this. And then when
Speaker 1: they get to the they do this all the time
Speaker 1: where people are at the precinct and they like run
Speaker 1: into each other. So we see this couple together for
Speaker 1: the first time in the episode, and they are flipping
Speaker 1: out on each other screaming. Valerie is there to recant
Speaker 1: her allegations, so he's technically free to go miles and
Speaker 1: they and then they have this like crazy fight, like
Speaker 1: he calls her a bitch and she's like you're the bitch,
Speaker 1: which I like.
Speaker 2: What's crazy. So you know, when people fall in love
Speaker 2: and get married and decide to have kids and all
Speaker 2: of that, there's just so much love and happiness, like
Speaker 2: positivity there and it is so crazy to think of
Speaker 2: things going this sour. And so while you're talking, I'm
Speaker 2: like imagining you and your husband, Oh my god, one day,
Speaker 2: can you imgine being in a precinct screaming at each
Speaker 2: other for Rosie's custody? No, I can't.
Speaker 1: But like then again, it's like you never know where
Speaker 1: things go, like Luckily and London, Yeah, you never know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And them. In the precinct, Benson says something that
Speaker 2: I find very important. She goes, I know when an
Speaker 2: abuse of man is escalating. Yeah, and we see that
Speaker 2: a full on abuse does not happen out of thin air. Right,
Speaker 2: This is patterns, and it gets bigger and worse and worse.
Speaker 2: So that Benson saying that meant a lot to.
Speaker 1: Me, right, But what's very interesting is like, so in
Speaker 1: the next act, we're still seeing Benson and Stable are
Speaker 1: having a ton of tension about this case.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: He's like, she recanted fuck yeah, yeah, yeah, And she's like,
Speaker 1: I know something's going on here. I know this woman
Speaker 1: was raped. Huang interviews Tessa and she gives the history
Speaker 1: of the alcohol and like, you know, him being passed out,
Speaker 1: him being high, but says that he's never laid a
Speaker 1: hand on Valerie or Tessa. So you know, you you
Speaker 1: want to believe this kid is telling the truth that
Speaker 1: She's like, he's never laid a finger on us. He'll
Speaker 1: punch walls, he'll do this and that, but he is
Speaker 1: never liked her.
Speaker 2: Because I was about to say, like you hopefully as
Speaker 2: a kid, you don't, I mean, if they're hopefully hopefully
Speaker 2: there's no abuse, but maybe the parents do it secretly.
Speaker 2: But this reminds me of big little lies where the
Speaker 2: dad thought he was like beating the shit out of
Speaker 2: Nicoleon's secret and his little boys were videotaping it and
Speaker 2: watching it. So kids are smarter than we give him credit,
Speaker 2: course or not. And so it is like, is Tesla
Speaker 2: lying or did she really not see anything? Is she
Speaker 2: living in a bubble you know right right? Or yeah?
Speaker 2: Was he abusing her? Yes, exactly on the side or whatever?
Speaker 2: And she loves her dad, so even if she did
Speaker 2: he did you know he did do something wrong? Like
Speaker 2: would she maybe lie to make sure her dad is
Speaker 2: in her life? Yeah, because sometimes I think kids of
Speaker 2: like divorce might blame the mom and be like, it's
Speaker 2: your fucking fault that I can't see my dad.
Speaker 1: You know, the dad's terrible. Yeah, for sure, life is rough, Yes, indeed.
Speaker 1: So basically Valerie is sticking to her guns that he
Speaker 1: did rape her. They find out that Miles bugged the
Speaker 1: social worker's car and that's how he found out where
Speaker 1: they live. And then so Benson arrests Miles because I
Speaker 1: think the bug is like enough proof he Oh, they
Speaker 1: also found hairs. Sorry, they also found hairs of vipers,
Speaker 1: so there's like enough evidence that he was in the house,
Speaker 1: so they bring Miles in. He fully admits to being
Speaker 1: in the house, like bugging the car, the whole thing.
Speaker 1: He said he went and yanked Valerie out of the
Speaker 1: tub and just shook.
Speaker 2: Her and left.
Speaker 1: He says it's because he heard the Dallas headhunter comment
Speaker 1: and was like, you're not allowed. You cannot move to
Speaker 1: Texas with my daughter. So that's what prompted him to
Speaker 1: go pull a naked woman out of the shower and
Speaker 1: shake her. I mean, this is also very not okay behavior,
Speaker 1: and I feel like you should have been charged for that.
Speaker 1: And he says Valerie treats Tessa like a hostage in
Speaker 1: there in their relationship, and Huang kind of backs him
Speaker 1: up and says that there is no pattern of abuse.
Speaker 1: He believes Tessa he is this, you know, psychological.
Speaker 2: Why do you think Michael Michelle recantd because she.
Speaker 1: Was saying I just wanted to go away. I just
Speaker 1: want this to stop.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Benson and Stabler get into a very intense fight and
Speaker 1: then Benson says like he says stuff to her like
Speaker 1: I'm the longest relationship you've ever had and with a man,
Speaker 1: so you don't really know how marriages work. And then
Speaker 1: she's like, she says that Stabler has a dying marriage
Speaker 1: and a history of violence, so she kind of like
Speaker 1: throws it right back at him, which is true. True,
Speaker 1: he does and his marriage is in shamble an Benson
Speaker 1: could get it if she wanted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if she wanted to get married and have kids.
Speaker 2: She goes like one of the top most beautiful women
Speaker 2: on this planet and like tough and cool. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm obsessed. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Benson meets up with Kathy Stabler's wife, and basically
Speaker 1: she wants him to She wants Olivia to convince Elliott
Speaker 1: to sign the paper so that they don't have to
Speaker 1: do a contested divorce, which is a lot more difficult.
Speaker 1: We basically get this little snippet where a neighbor of
Speaker 1: Valeries saw her with a man named Phil from her attorneys.
Speaker 2: And fuck this neighbor, what are you telling your friend's
Speaker 2: business for? What the Yeah, it's weird.
Speaker 1: She's like, yeah, we're friends, we just gossip did see
Speaker 1: her with a guy named Phil. Once It's like the
Speaker 1: classic neighbor testimony, Oh your friend.
Speaker 2: The cops are asking me question, what do you that
Speaker 2: is anti girl coat? You do not tell the cops
Speaker 2: who your friend is fucking? That is insane. Right.
Speaker 1: So, now we are at Miles's bail hearing and Casey
Speaker 1: Novak asks for like two hundred k bail or something,
Speaker 1: and Judge Petrovsky, iconic judge of the franchise, Judge Petrovski
Speaker 1: clearly like, does it like to see women beaters get off?
Speaker 1: She's like, no, let's make it five hundred k, which
Speaker 1: everybody is kind of shocked by, which I think is
Speaker 1: more how the episode is trying to get you to
Speaker 1: be like, is everything fair here?
Speaker 2: Is? Like what? Like? I think they're really the whole
Speaker 2: time trying to get you to question who is in
Speaker 2: the wrong here because now he's got this massive bail
Speaker 2: which we can talk forever, but because bail is problematic
Speaker 2: against I thought it was because the order of protection
Speaker 2: was expiring two that she made it so high. Sure,
Speaker 2: but that was like another judge's called and like she didn't,
Speaker 2: you know, like even Novak says, that's excessive, your honor,
Speaker 2: Like even she thinks it's too high. I mean, at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, two hundred grand and five
Speaker 2: hundred grand I they're both insane.
Speaker 1: No, but well they're not though, because like your bail
Speaker 1: is only ten percent of that, So it's like whether
Speaker 1: you can raise twenty k or whether you can raise
Speaker 1: fifty k. I mean it's you know, twenty k. You
Speaker 1: can like sometimes put your house up. This like his
Speaker 1: parents had to put their retirement home up or something
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: It was like a whole thing.
Speaker 1: It just is more bail is like more punitive. So
Speaker 1: it's like she is passing a judgment on him already
Speaker 1: and he has not been convicted of anything, got it.
Speaker 1: So I think that's what the show is trying to
Speaker 1: get you to question, like who's in the wrong who's
Speaker 1: in the right here? Because that seems unfair to him
Speaker 1: a little bit. So then this is where the episode
Speaker 1: takes a.
Speaker 2: Really really grew some turn. Oh you know what I
Speaker 2: wrote here? I go Michael Michelle and what's his name?
Speaker 2: Blairon would stare at each other. They're both hot and angry,
Speaker 2: like Lisa, Renna and Denise Richards. So any Housewives fanatic,
Speaker 2: if you're energy, yeah, if you're a crossover fan, like
Speaker 2: when Renna goes ooh, you're so angry.
Speaker 1: Okay, So we find out that Valerie has been attacked
Speaker 1: in the street. We get to the hospital, she's in
Speaker 1: the burn unit. She's been set on fire. She's been
Speaker 1: doused in gasoline and set on fire, which is really terrible.
Speaker 1: This is very graphic, like this scene in the burn unit, like.
Speaker 2: You're seeing just like burnt, bloody flesh. It's very awful.
Speaker 2: And her face is like she's lame.
Speaker 1: They have her lying on her stomach, and like, what's
Speaker 1: crazy is that the detectives are allowed into the operating room,
Speaker 1: which I don't really think is a.
Speaker 2: Thing, especially now with COVID, Like there's so many things
Speaker 2: we see where it's like even just people hugging or
Speaker 2: kissing on housewives, I'm like, oh, don't do that, or
Speaker 2: you know, high fiving a stranger, but this was insane.
Speaker 2: We're in a burn unit or without masks, just in
Speaker 2: their gear, not even they're wearing like.
Speaker 1: Those tear away scrubs or whatever that are like very
Speaker 1: but still it was like you're just letting these cops
Speaker 1: into this woman who's like bleeding on an operating tape.
Speaker 2: When the er people and the doctors are like, you
Speaker 2: can't leave her alone. She can't don't touch her. At
Speaker 2: point they try to touch her. They're like, don't touch her,
Speaker 2: but the doctors they keep going, is she gonna make it?
Speaker 2: And the doctors are like, doesn't look good. She's conscious,
Speaker 2: like she's alive, conscious, and you're just talking about how
Speaker 2: she's gonna die any second. And the thing is, they're
Speaker 2: all the crimes on SPHEW are bad, you know, but
Speaker 2: something I got to burn you. I don't know what
Speaker 2: it is, but it is obviously an extra horrific crime
Speaker 2: and injury to heal from it. But they they're just
Speaker 2: my stomach sink. Yeah, it's really horrible.
Speaker 1: And it's also something about like it's to me, it's
Speaker 1: something about destroying like how beautiful she is, Like Michael
Speaker 1: Michelle is like extremely beautiful his wife Valerie in this situation,
Speaker 1: and it's like, I'm just gonna make it so that
Speaker 1: you're not beautiful anymore.
Speaker 2: Like even if he didn't mean to murder her, you know, Anna,
Speaker 2: I think it also shows like the rage and hatred
Speaker 2: and what Benson said, the escalation. Yeah, because he could
Speaker 2: have just walked up to hearrd shot her. He could
Speaker 2: have poisoned her.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a million ways he could have killed her,
Speaker 1: but like up to set someone on fire is like,
Speaker 1: we should look into the psychology of what that means,
Speaker 1: because I think it's like about destroying like the physical,
Speaker 1: like what.
Speaker 2: She looks like.
Speaker 1: Valerie says they have to talk to her in this
Speaker 1: burn unit because she has to make a dying declaration
Speaker 1: if she is going to pass away, and she says,
Speaker 1: Miles the one who set her on fire. So then
Speaker 1: and now Maloney's blaming himself and he should yes, And
Speaker 1: now Maloney is like, I should have listened to you, Olivia,
Speaker 1: and Olivia is kind of like, you know, how could
Speaker 1: we have possibly known it was going to escalate this far?
Speaker 1: You knew, yeah, but she was like, I didn't know
Speaker 1: it was going to go from like zero to one
Speaker 1: hundred or whatever. I guess in this case, like fifty
Speaker 1: to one hundred.
Speaker 2: And my page where I take notes, it won't remember Malone.
Speaker 2: So his name is Melon in all of my notes.
Speaker 1: So Melon and Stabler are I mean, Melon and Benson
Speaker 1: are kind of you can tell things are kind of
Speaker 1: He's a little bit apologizing without saying I'm sorry. Okay.
Speaker 1: So we're in Central Park. Miles is like meeting up
Speaker 1: with Tessa. The cops are surrounding. Tessa's like, Daddy, don't
Speaker 1: do this, AND's he confesses to his daughter, I killed
Speaker 1: your mother today, like which is wild, and she's like,
Speaker 1: I won't love you anymore. But then she's like, daddy,
Speaker 1: don't go and she doesn't want the cops to kill him.
Speaker 1: So then they get Tessa out of there. The cops
Speaker 1: carry Tessa off and.
Speaker 2: Miles they're out to Alice in Wonderland statue I loved,
Speaker 2: okay at Central Park, So you need to know the
Speaker 2: location it's at, Like if you know a beautiful whimsical
Speaker 2: statue which something is on accident.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they will have childlike It's like basically, this is
Speaker 1: a place where like Alice in Wonderland is like a
Speaker 1: symbol of childhood and like then this is a place
Speaker 1: where this girl is like officially losing her childhood because
Speaker 1: her dad murdered her mom. And then her dad Miles
Speaker 1: pulls out a knife, like fully, I think prepared to
Speaker 1: do like a suicide by cop thing. I don't think
Speaker 1: he's gonna trying to kill any stab anyone. I think
Speaker 1: he's trying to like end it, and they shoot him.
Speaker 1: He's on the ground. Benson unloads her gun and goes,
Speaker 1: your ribs are gonna hurt. Plastic bullets. I'm like, what
Speaker 1: the fuck those exist? Like, I know there are rubber
Speaker 1: bullets that they use in like protests and stuff, but
Speaker 1: if you can like disarm someone with plastic bullets, and like,
Speaker 1: why are cops not using those like all the fucking time?
Speaker 2: Because they want their goal. That's the thing where people
Speaker 2: talk about police reform, it's like, oh, we have to
Speaker 2: know they want to kill black people. That is what
Speaker 2: is happening, because really there are Because when Benson shoots
Speaker 2: him in his chest, I immediately was like, what the fuck.
Speaker 2: I can't believe they kill him? And I was thinking
Speaker 2: about the real world and how this happened. And when
Speaker 2: she mentioned the rubber bullets, I was like, I thought,
Speaker 2: how you thought I go this? They could do this? Yeah,
Speaker 2: they have the opportunity to do this.
Speaker 1: They can if someone has a knife, because like you
Speaker 1: don't bring a gun a knife to a gunfight, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like if someone has a knife,
Speaker 1: for if someone has like a like a metal pipe,
Speaker 1: like your gun is obviously going to get them. So
Speaker 1: use rubber bullets, use plastic bullets and that's not showing.
Speaker 2: And this is again how we always talk about the
Speaker 2: fantasy of this show is Benson didn't want to kill
Speaker 2: him and did what she needed to do to make
Speaker 2: sure that didn't happen. And so it's the choices that
Speaker 2: cops make, and they choose not to do that, right,
Speaker 2: So that's why you're like, why don't they do it?
Speaker 2: They don't want to do it. They are losers from
Speaker 2: high school that can't get their dick's hard. Okay, that's
Speaker 2: what it is, not all Okay, they go to anyways,
Speaker 2: but that rubber bullet scene is epic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's really wild. So they go to visit Valerie,
Speaker 1: who is still like not doing great. She's about to
Speaker 1: go into the oer for like, you know, to be
Speaker 1: operated on, and they tell her Tessa's, okay, we've got
Speaker 1: Miles in custody.
Speaker 2: She wants to know if he's.
Speaker 1: Been killed, and then she says, in this sort of
Speaker 1: deathbed confession that he still raped her. Like Olivia asks again,
Speaker 1: did he rape you? And she says yes. So then
Speaker 1: the scene ends like really traumatically. She's cry You just
Speaker 1: hear her screams of pain as they leave the burn unit.
Speaker 1: Sabler goes to his house and delivers the divorce papers
Speaker 1: to his wife because he's clearly now seen too much
Speaker 1: violence from like husbands against wives.
Speaker 2: But it's like like he puts it in the mailbox sneakily. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he doesn't want to talk to her. He's just like,
Speaker 2: here you win.
Speaker 1: So after the divorce papers, we see Philip Anderson. So
Speaker 1: this little phil tidbit did not did not go.
Speaker 2: Phil little and I was like, he looked like a
Speaker 2: tall man. Little tidbit.
Speaker 1: Yes, this little tidbit like actually pays off where he
Speaker 1: comes in. He comes into few basically tells Benson that
Speaker 1: he's been having like a very casual affair with Valerie,
Speaker 1: so casual that he like barely blinks an eye when
Speaker 1: it's like she's in the burn unit dying and he's like,
Speaker 1: we were just banging once in a while.
Speaker 2: She goes, aren't you going to visit?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it turns out that he had sex with
Speaker 1: her the day of this rape, this alleged rape, and
Speaker 1: didn't and used a condom. So she goes to Stabler's
Speaker 1: house at like like four am. They meet up downstairs
Speaker 1: or having coffee and she's like, Valerie wasn't raped, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, why did they come to that conclusion.
Speaker 2: It's possible she.
Speaker 1: Was had sex at five o'clock in the evening and
Speaker 1: then was raped at ten o'clock at night.
Speaker 2: I don't understand because was there condom or not? I
Speaker 2: remember because there was a condom in both cases. There
Speaker 2: were no fluids, so that's the same. Maybe there was
Speaker 2: two sperms, but yeah, no, that would have made more sense.
Speaker 1: So that's really weird to me that they're just like
Speaker 1: she lied, like on her deathbed, she lied about being raped,
Speaker 1: which doesn't really track for me, and it doesn't track
Speaker 1: for Benson and her personality seems weird.
Speaker 2: But I didn't catch this. I was like, I guess
Speaker 2: they're showing that hatred and divorce after death whatever, But
Speaker 2: you're right, yeah, she could.
Speaker 1: They're just acting like the fact that she had sex
Speaker 1: with this guy Phil on the same day means that
Speaker 1: she wasn't raped by her ex husband, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't know. That seems weird. But she also died
Speaker 1: twenty minutes ago, so rip Valerie. That's like the most horrible,
Speaker 1: horrific death I can think of. And then I remember
Speaker 1: watching this episode when it was on live, when they
Speaker 1: were sitting outside and he's delivered the worse papers to
Speaker 1: his wife Stabler and him and Benz are sitting there,
Speaker 1: and I go, this is it. They're gonna kiss. I
Speaker 1: remember that we are happy. No, because I mean, I
Speaker 1: just I think it's great that the show never had
Speaker 1: them get together.
Speaker 2: I really do.
Speaker 1: But I remember so vividly being in my apartment in
Speaker 1: New York watching this episode and going, oh my god,
Speaker 1: he's divorced now, Like there's no moral there's no moral quandary,
Speaker 1: Like they're going to get together now, like and it's crazy,
Speaker 1: and that obviously doesn't happen.
Speaker 2: No, they just go to the diner. Yeah, but I
Speaker 2: love the New York coffee cups. I love. Yeah, they
Speaker 2: always have those little Greek diner coffee cups. They drink coffee,
Speaker 2: and I love their relationship. And I think they had
Speaker 2: to end it in some sort of upbeater positive way
Speaker 2: because it's so horrific that like sometimes they end on
Speaker 2: horrific stuff and you're just like left to be like geez,
Speaker 2: but they really I think they knew they had to
Speaker 2: give us something good because this was like too intense. Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 2: let's hear let's take advertisers.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break and cleanse the palate, and
Speaker 1: then we'll hear about the real.
Speaker 4: Horrific crime is based on. We'll be right back, welcome back.
Speaker 2: So obviously this is a horrific case, and you can
Speaker 2: imagine that this is a really horrific case in life.
Speaker 2: There are two good tidbits that I will start with
Speaker 2: up top. One is that she is alive. So yes,
Speaker 2: the real life victim of this, you vet caide, she
Speaker 2: is alive.
Speaker 1: You're saying her name very Russian. What is her fit?
Speaker 1: Most people would say vat Oh okay, but I love
Speaker 1: it because your name is Julia, so you're saying it
Speaker 1: like your own name.
Speaker 2: I think it's cool. So Vett is alive, so that's
Speaker 2: really great. And he got life in prison. Okay, perfect,
Speaker 2: So he is in jail right now, so we don't
Speaker 2: have to worry about any of that.
Speaker 1: We just wanted everybody to hear that right up top,
Speaker 1: so you know that this isn't all awful.
Speaker 2: Well, and I just want to differentiate because you know,
Speaker 2: Michael Mitchell dying in the episode was just like really sad,
Speaker 2: So this is like yeah, I just yeah, she's alive,
Speaker 2: which is huge. So besides Roger Hartgrave, there is another
Speaker 2: villain in this dute episode, So we'll get into that. Now.
Speaker 2: This happened in October, and i'll go a little bit
Speaker 2: October two thousand and five, but i'll go back when
Speaker 2: she met him. So, Yvette had a daughter and he
Speaker 2: had a son, and they met and she said their
Speaker 2: relationship was awesome. He was fine, everything was good. This
Speaker 2: is kind of a classic tale where it went bad
Speaker 2: after the marriage. Okay, So they got married and it
Speaker 2: just drugs, alcohol, and he became just verbally abusive. And
Speaker 2: her sister said anytime she called Ivett, like you can
Speaker 2: hear in the background him just screaming at her. She
Speaker 2: said he used to call her a fat beached whale,
Speaker 2: and just it got worse and worse, and she didn't
Speaker 2: want her daughter to be a part of this abuse.
Speaker 2: She felt guilty for bringing her daughter into this. Parenthood
Speaker 2: is hard, well, motherhood, I'm a parent, okay, whatever, but
Speaker 2: I just you know, even in the episode where she
Speaker 2: gets raped at may or attacked and then the next
Speaker 2: she waits till the morning after her kid goes to
Speaker 2: school to call the cops to shield her away, as
Speaker 2: like mothers just are always thinking about their kids before themselves.
Speaker 2: And this is another case where she's like, I need
Speaker 2: to get my daughter out of here now. She they
Speaker 2: were going through the divorce. It's very contentious. She does
Speaker 2: get a protective order. They go back to cor because
Speaker 2: Roger wants to fight the protective order and the judge
Speaker 2: does not extend it. And this burn attack happened three
Speaker 2: weeks after the judge refused to extend the protective order
Speaker 2: and he is disgusting. I'm getting chills thinking about this
Speaker 2: fucking judge, Judge Palumbo, and he is on administrative duty
Speaker 2: and retired, like he did not work on the bench.
Speaker 2: But he is disgusting. And there's tapes from that hearing
Speaker 2: where she's like, I you need to do this, like
Speaker 2: I am not safe and he goes and I want
Speaker 2: to be six five, that's not my problem. Go to
Speaker 2: divorce court for that, Like so dismissive.
Speaker 1: They definitely base the judge in the episode on this
Speaker 1: pace of work, yes.
Speaker 2: Because you know it's tough with that show, because you're like,
Speaker 2: people can't be that bad, and they are, And like,
Speaker 2: I think we learn a lot from SVU that judges
Speaker 2: take bribes, judges have their personal van data and like
Speaker 2: they just have their own shit, and you know, they
Speaker 2: could also be sexist pieces of garbage. But he's a
Speaker 2: full psychopath. He dismissed her, and he's never apologized because
Speaker 2: he doesn't admit he did anything wrong, and he says
Speaker 2: it's a clerical.
Speaker 1: Error, even though he's like on tape denying the extension.
Speaker 1: He says that it like the denial of extension.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because the chief District Court judge disagreed and was like,
Speaker 2: there is no error. He's like fucking lying, And so
Speaker 2: he was temporarily removed from the bench. But then the
Speaker 2: Washington report the Washington Post reported later that he like
Speaker 2: a Maryland state trooper gave him a ticket and then
Speaker 2: avoided it because he was a judge, which is illegal.
Speaker 2: So he was he cannot be on the bench anymore.
Speaker 2: But the fact to not apologize when something this but
Speaker 2: this is why the news got such attention. I think
Speaker 2: just a public burning like that would get attention. But
Speaker 2: the fact this is just like, well what actually happened,
Speaker 2: but one hundred percent, but like just that, what is
Speaker 2: it called when you want people not a protective order.
Speaker 2: But all of those, like you know, cops in our
Speaker 2: judicial system so often wait till something happens and they
Speaker 2: have they can't do anything beforehand. And so many women
Speaker 2: end up being murdered by their spouses and exes and
Speaker 2: lovers whatever because of this and our fucking archaic court system.
Speaker 2: So that's another reason this was such big news. So basically,
Speaker 2: a Vett went to work at her T Mobile store.
Speaker 2: She worked at a T Mobile store. Roger called Yvette
Speaker 2: six hours before the attack and said to her, I
Speaker 2: want to fry you like Crisco grease, and she didn't
Speaker 2: take that literal, I bet, because he's been verbally abusive
Speaker 2: throughout their marriage. So she went to work at T
Speaker 2: Mobile and he came in and in a soda bottle
Speaker 2: he had gasoline and doused her with it. She said
Speaker 2: she didn't even realize it was gasoline because she was
Speaker 2: so concerned with not causing a scene at her job,
Speaker 2: so she even then like she was just like didn't
Speaker 2: want to cause anything. So she's running out the door.
Speaker 2: So as she's running out the door, he's chasing her,
Speaker 2: and this is all caught on camera. Everything Because it's
Speaker 2: a store, there's fucking security cameras everywhere there you can
Speaker 2: I mean I did not. I chose not to watch
Speaker 2: the video. So she's running out of the store. He
Speaker 2: steps on the back of her shoe to stop her,
Speaker 2: and she said she felt something on her back and
Speaker 2: was in full flames, and she ran back into the
Speaker 2: store because she knew there was a sink and so
Speaker 2: she wanted to get to water. So she runs back
Speaker 2: into the store to get to the sink and she
Speaker 2: starts putting water on her face, and she says she
Speaker 2: remembers thinking and feeling, my face is melting. Oh my god.
Speaker 2: She was burned sixty percent of her body. She barely survived.
Speaker 2: She barely survived. And all of these injuries have weakened
Speaker 2: her immune system and she suffers now from PTSD anxiety
Speaker 2: and fear of fire obviously, and trust and how do
Speaker 2: you trust a partner every again. So when this happened,
Speaker 2: before she was able to go home from the hospital,
Speaker 2: she had seventeen surgeries before returning home, and it was hell.
Speaker 2: She's lost her ears, so she doesn't have ears anymore,
Speaker 2: and she had to wear a plastic face shield for
Speaker 2: twenty three hours a day, and because the burn and
Speaker 2: scar tissues obviously hardens. She just really tough. She said,
Speaker 2: brushing teeth and just simple tasks were so painful and
Speaker 2: so tough. And I saw she was on OPRAH in
Speaker 2: two thousand and six and it was a rough go.
Speaker 2: I've seen more current video footage of her. What's Wild
Speaker 2: about evet Is has found a lot of interviews with
Speaker 2: her talking about other cases where this has happened, like
Speaker 2: this keeps happening. So I would click on a video
Speaker 2: thinking she'd be talking about herself and her experience, and
Speaker 2: it was her talking about all these other women that
Speaker 2: this has happened to. So two of the videos I
Speaker 2: found were her giving advice and talking about this happening
Speaker 2: and it fucked up. And she says the reason she
Speaker 2: went on OPRAH and was so vocal and wanted to
Speaker 2: speak out so much is because her daughter saw all
Speaker 2: this and she doesn't want and that's all her daughter knows.
Speaker 2: So she didn't want her daughter to think it's okay
Speaker 2: or accidentally fall into a pattern thinking, oh, well, this
Speaker 2: is all I know and this is what a relationship is.
Speaker 2: So she really wanted to speak out, to be public
Speaker 2: and to make sure that her daughter knew this is
Speaker 2: not what you put up with. So they went to core.
Speaker 2: The jury took two days and seven hours of deliberating,
Speaker 2: and he was found guilty of first and second attempted murder,
Speaker 2: first and second degree attempted murder, and first degree assault.
Speaker 2: And I don't know this of how many attempted murder
Speaker 2: people go to jail for life, but they did the
Speaker 2: right thing. This man should not be in the open.
Speaker 2: He should not be a free man. If you can
Speaker 2: burn your ex well as someone you knew intimately like that,
Speaker 2: what can you do to strangers or in the future
Speaker 2: or when you snap? He should not be out in public.
Speaker 2: He also, which is so weird, was like I wasn't
Speaker 2: trying to kill her, I was just trying to burn her,
Speaker 2: Like that is some sort of excuse. And they said
Speaker 2: throughout the whole court proceedings he was expressionless. He did
Speaker 2: not testify in his account. I think they yeah, they
Speaker 2: had nothing to offer that was in his own defense,
Speaker 2: you know. And this is a little nice, little fun,
Speaker 2: fun moment, you know, as fun as you can get
Speaker 2: with the case this brutal. But when the guilty verdict
Speaker 2: was read in the court, Robert again made no expression
Speaker 2: his face, Roger, I told you. And when the bailiffs
Speaker 2: or whatever went to take him away, two of her
Speaker 2: friends that were in the group with Evet in the
Speaker 2: courtroom went by in unison, which is amazing, and those
Speaker 2: are the friends that we all deserved. And they said
Speaker 2: that he turned around but looked at them expressionless, which
Speaker 2: makes me think, you're so sealed. Yeah, if you don't
Speaker 2: even have fear of life and pursue or any remorse
Speaker 2: or anything and nothing, And I'm glad he's fucking behind
Speaker 2: bars for everything. And there was just it was all
Speaker 2: on video and so many witnesses at the store and
Speaker 2: the job that there's really like no way to get
Speaker 2: out of this. But yeah, she has a lot of
Speaker 2: psychological damage. And she was saying that it's really hard
Speaker 2: because now like her hands will always look burned, but
Speaker 2: she looks quote unquote normal. I don't know how to
Speaker 2: discuss this without being like, I don't know, she actually
Speaker 2: don't know the proper way to talk about that. She
Speaker 2: looks as normal and not burned as you can, Like, what,
Speaker 2: how do you sure? I don't know what to say,
Speaker 2: but she said that's what's tough is because she looks
Speaker 2: so normal. She feels she has to explain her psychological
Speaker 2: drama trauma uh huh, and prove it to people all
Speaker 2: the time, and she hates talking about it because she
Speaker 2: feels like she constantly has to prove that she has problems.
Speaker 2: But of course you're gonna be fucked for life psychological.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine getting through something like this unscathed at all.
Speaker 2: But this is another good moment. She were they're talking
Speaker 2: about the scars. She's on Oprah, and she said, I
Speaker 2: know what it feels like to be pretty, So if
Speaker 2: they don't like it, that's too bad, because she's like,
Speaker 2: I don't care people think about how I look burned now,
Speaker 2: and I just love that confidence beautiful where she's like,
Speaker 2: I know what it is to be hot and I
Speaker 2: have a great person, Like yeah, I don't need that
Speaker 2: validation from you anymore. And you know, there was a
Speaker 2: complicated journey, and she talks about like people being like,
Speaker 2: but you're still beautiful, and like believing you're beautiful? And
Speaker 2: are you still beautiful? And what does beauty? And is
Speaker 2: it inside outside? I mean it's I really can't imagine
Speaker 2: living with this sort of trauma and the guilt of
Speaker 2: like marrying someone and bringing your daughter into that. Like
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's a lot to it, and I hope
Speaker 2: she's getting all them therapy and everything that she needs. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and fuck Judge Palumbo. And if you ever see him
Speaker 2: out in public, you can spit on him.
Speaker 1: I mean, I it, Yeah, I mean, And it's like
Speaker 1: what we were talking about before, like this is very common.
Speaker 1: It seems like not common, but more a lot. It
Speaker 1: has happened a lot of times that men are just
Speaker 1: setting it on fire. And I would love if anyone
Speaker 1: has a psychology background, Like, but I think you were.
Speaker 2: About the looks and the ownership and if no one
Speaker 2: can have, you know, like making you look awful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because like it didn't seem like he didn't he
Speaker 1: didn't intend to kill her. He intended to just make
Speaker 1: her suffer.
Speaker 2: Oh you know what. One of the other cases you
Speaker 2: vet was on the news commenting on was actually like
Speaker 2: a wife and husband and the husband was cheating. She
Speaker 2: burned the woman, the woman who was like an objectively
Speaker 2: like megablonde hot babe. Wow. And yeah, fully so it
Speaker 2: was an ex wife. So it's like, I think you're
Speaker 2: right in terms of like ruining the looks because this
Speaker 2: wasn't a husband. This was like a woman jealous. But
Speaker 2: it's like burn your husband. Don't burn anybody, please, don't
Speaker 2: burn anybody. Please. But it's like I hate I hate
Speaker 2: this equal responsibility. I mean, I'm sure it's denial in
Speaker 2: lots of things, but like I hate the I hate
Speaker 2: the thing of like the other woman's to blame. And
Speaker 2: it's like that other woman owes no one anything, like
Speaker 2: they're allowed, they're free to fuck who they want. Like
Speaker 2: the anger should be at the person who's made a
Speaker 2: commitment to you or to be faithful, who is down right.
Speaker 2: The concept of the home wrecker is very problematic. I
Speaker 2: think it is because even if let's say a woman
Speaker 2: has super low self esteem, a fucking town slut who's
Speaker 2: just out there trying to get married men, that is
Speaker 2: her prerogative and she owes no one nothing, Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: like it is the husband's job is to not Yeah.
Speaker 2: I've definitely gotten to a fights with my friends about this.
Speaker 2: But it's like I don't care if there's a woman naked,
Speaker 2: spread eagle, you cannot enjoy it. You cannot like that woman. Yes,
Speaker 2: you shouldn't be blaming her when people blame the other
Speaker 2: woman all the time. It's like she even a little
Speaker 2: legs open, but like fully naked, being like penetrate me.
Speaker 2: Like it is up to the person who made a
Speaker 2: commitment to say no, thank.
Speaker 1: You as appetizing as you made that sound, A lot
Speaker 1: of men would have a hard time saying no.
Speaker 2: I do want to say. I would like to just
Speaker 2: quickly mention the five indicators that are relationship can turn violent.
Speaker 2: And this is back to what Benson said about like
Speaker 2: you can see when someone is escalating, you don't. And
Speaker 2: that's what's so fucked about our courts. They wait till
Speaker 2: it's too late. So it's possessiveness and jealousy, controlling behavior,
Speaker 2: verbal abuse, threats to harm you, friends, family, or pets,
Speaker 2: and isolation from friends and family. Yeah, if you just
Speaker 2: think your significant other is just a little jealous or
Speaker 2: you know, doesn't let oh he doesn't like me going
Speaker 2: out without you know, like these are signs. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: I like to go on the m I the asshole Twitter, right, Yes,
Speaker 2: a lot. And there are cases sometimes where people write
Speaker 2: and I don't. I'm not privy to it. It's just
Speaker 2: like a dude, or it's I'm just I keep wanting
Speaker 2: to be gender neutral and like respectful and like lesbians.
Speaker 2: I'm sure can be violent too, but I am just
Speaker 2: speaking in such heteronormative terms. But a lot of times,
Speaker 2: like a guy's acting weird, and then all the comments
Speaker 2: are people being like these are morning signs, get the
Speaker 2: fuck out, this is not okay out And I'm like,
Speaker 2: he just said this little thing, or he just won't
Speaker 2: let her do that. But people that know this, or
Speaker 2: have dealt with this, or have seen it, or are
Speaker 2: educated in this, you know that those are indicators that
Speaker 2: could happen later once you're married, Like he didn't get violent,
Speaker 2: Like he didn't do this till after marriage, right, So
Speaker 2: just to make sure that you're not like, oh my
Speaker 2: boyfriend's jealous, it's cute, haha, or like he doesn't let
Speaker 2: me go bowling, or he doesn't like those things are
Speaker 2: clues and to make sure that you're being treated like
Speaker 2: an autonomous, amazing humane. But the thing that's scary is
Speaker 2: people that are abusive are master manipulators, and they're able
Speaker 2: to be like members of the community and positive and happy,
Speaker 2: and so people don't believe it, and there are good
Speaker 2: at manipulating. I've been manipulated before, and it's like they're
Speaker 2: good at it or Benson always talks about this, how
Speaker 2: like predators know who to victimize. They know that you've
Speaker 2: been raped before, that you have problems, or your dad
Speaker 2: didn't like Okay, y are in tune tonight. So don't
Speaker 2: feel guilt, shame or embarrassment if you are in a
Speaker 2: situation that ends up being abusive or violent, because these
Speaker 2: people are good hiding it and manipulating you to think that.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for taking us through that very harrowing case.
Speaker 2: And you know what, I'm just so thankful that she
Speaker 2: survived such a drawa and Jesus.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's get to our guest interview.
Speaker 2: Our guest today was a little bitty child in this show,
Speaker 2: which is amazing, and now she's a full fledged R
Speaker 2: and B hip hop musical superstar.
Speaker 1: Yeah even younger when she was on Star Search, the
Speaker 1: only person to ever get all tends from the judges.
Speaker 2: And what I love is I did you know. I
Speaker 2: was listening to all her YouTube videos and the first
Speaker 2: person in all of history I would say only positive comments.
Speaker 2: I did not see one negative comment on her videos.
Speaker 2: Every video was like she should be more famous. She's
Speaker 2: incredible voice of an angel. She is gifted, like there
Speaker 2: was not one not nice thing. She directs a lot
Speaker 2: of her videos. She dances, she acts, she sings, and
Speaker 2: while we talked to her, this was our first time
Speaker 2: she was in a makeup chair.
Speaker 1: She was a girl on the go talking to us
Speaker 1: about to shoot a music video. Because she is now
Speaker 1: a member of an R and B duo called Juwan
Speaker 1: and Tiffany stylized Juwan x Tiffany with Juwan Harris. They
Speaker 1: released a debut single called Finally in October, and they're
Speaker 1: gearing up to release their first project in early twenty
Speaker 1: twenty one. Guys, we have with us today from the
Speaker 1: episode Burned, we have Tessa. Please welcome Tiffany Evans.
Speaker 3: Hey girlkay, girl bye.
Speaker 2: As a New Yorker. When you got the call that
Speaker 2: you got the part in Lawn Order SVU. Were you
Speaker 2: a fan of the show, familiar with the show. Was
Speaker 2: it like a big deal when you book that part?
Speaker 3: You know, I was a kid, Yeah, I do. I
Speaker 3: do remember seeing it on TV like all the time,
Speaker 3: and I just I just knew at that point, I
Speaker 3: really I really loved I really loved to act and
Speaker 3: I'm like, Okay, you know, honestly, if I get this part,
Speaker 3: then that makes me like the real deal Hollywood. You
Speaker 3: know what I'm saying, Like people are gonna take me
Speaker 3: serious as an actress. So yeah, I really wasn't familiar
Speaker 3: with the show, like as far as like watching it
Speaker 3: or whatever, but as far as knowing about it and
Speaker 3: how important it was to people, I knew. I knew
Speaker 3: that much, and it made me want to go for it.
Speaker 2: Now, your episode is pretty intense and has haunted us
Speaker 2: for over a decade. Now, how do you does? Like
Speaker 2: usually when you do a TV thing, you want to
Speaker 2: get together with your friends and watch it, but it's
Speaker 2: such a serious episode, Like, yeah, how did you feel
Speaker 2: on set? Did they shield you away because you were young?
Speaker 2: And yeah, all of those questions and when you did
Speaker 2: you watch it when you were that young?
Speaker 3: It's so funny because the Holy experience was really really cool,
Speaker 3: Like I was on set with some pretty serious actors. Yeah,
Speaker 3: Like they take that acting business very serious.
Speaker 2: So I kind of got to.
Speaker 3: Channel channel my own emotions and and bring more of
Speaker 3: my own feelings out into the character. Because my parents
Speaker 3: at the time they were kind of going through nothing
Speaker 3: like the storyline, but they were they were going through
Speaker 3: a nasty ending divorce and so yeah, so my parents
Speaker 3: they didn't really see eye to eye at the time,
Speaker 3: and they were really like, you know, I mean, she
Speaker 3: should still do the role, you know, even though it's
Speaker 3: kind of hitting.
Speaker 2: Close to home. Blair Underwood is like undeniably hot, but
Speaker 2: he has to be your dad. Yeah, I had a
Speaker 2: crush on him.
Speaker 3: I was like, wait, it's just like I mean, I know,
Speaker 3: he wasn't paying me any attention at all. Like I
Speaker 3: was just like, oh my gosh, like having daydreams about him.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then your mom is like the most gorgeous woman
Speaker 1: in the world, Like you literally had the hottest parents
Speaker 1: I've ever seen on an SVU episode.
Speaker 3: They were gorgeous and they had a beautiful child too.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, So did you have any like memories.
Speaker 1: I know that you were like fourteen or fifteen when
Speaker 1: you did this, so I know it was a long
Speaker 1: time ago, but do you have any like specific memories
Speaker 1: from like, I don't know, did Ice Chase say something
Speaker 1: funny to you or like anything with Blair Underwood or
Speaker 1: like Michael Michelle or anything like that.
Speaker 2: And our Queen Mariska Hargitay, Yeah, and our queen. Can
Speaker 2: I be honest, yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: So basically I think ice team was like, who's this
Speaker 3: little kid. I don't think he was really focused on me.
Speaker 1: That was probably before it was because it was before
Speaker 1: he had his little baby Chanel, Like now he hasn't
Speaker 1: been now he has a little daughter.
Speaker 2: So I'm sure he'd be a lot nicer to a
Speaker 2: kid on that.
Speaker 3: I'm sure too because he I think he was just
Speaker 3: looking at me like, yeah, she's just here to do
Speaker 3: her job or whatever. But you know, I think I'm
Speaker 3: just gonna be really, really honest. Everyone was super serious
Speaker 3: because of the nature of the production in the storyline. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and so I do remember Blair would be more friendlier.
Speaker 3: He was friendlier. He had a calm spirit, but he
Speaker 3: stayed in his dressing room most of the time. And
Speaker 3: when he did come out, like he smiled and he
Speaker 3: would ask me if I'm ready, or you know, if
Speaker 3: I need any help going over my lines.
Speaker 2: Oh that's nice, Michael Michelle's.
Speaker 3: She was very serious. I mean, and I understand why,
Speaker 3: I really do. As I got older, I'm like, you
Speaker 3: know what, they had to be a character.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and She's like, that's based on a real story.
Speaker 1: So like, I'm sure they wanted to like, you know,
Speaker 1: be respectful to like the real well.
Speaker 2: And I'm also thinking about the scene at the end
Speaker 2: where he has the gun and all the cops are
Speaker 2: around and you're in like Central Park, Like that must
Speaker 2: have been intense.
Speaker 3: Oh, that was intense. That that was intense. It almost
Speaker 3: felt like the real thing, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: Like I was just like wow, like all of these
Speaker 3: people around it. Okay, I do remember being really really cold.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seemed cold. It seemed like a cold time
Speaker 2: of year.
Speaker 3: I think it was in the winter time that we
Speaker 3: shot it. I'm not sure, but I remember it being
Speaker 3: really really cold. And I remember rehearsing my lines with
Speaker 3: Blair Underwood, and I remember him just like, when you
Speaker 3: need to cry, you know, I need you to pull
Speaker 3: that emotion from the experience, the experiences that you've had
Speaker 3: in the past.
Speaker 2: That impacted you the most.
Speaker 3: And he was like, so, think of something that really
Speaker 3: really hurts you. Like it could be you're losing a
Speaker 3: loved one, it could be you know, maybe your parents
Speaker 3: have gone through something similar to this in which they
Speaker 3: were like just not super similar, just the divorce part.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, not the violence. I'm sure you're right, but.
Speaker 3: It's just being really nasty with them partying ways. And
Speaker 3: so I'm like, you know what, I'll think about my
Speaker 3: my my grandma passing away, and I'll think about my
Speaker 3: parents kind of going through this nasty divorce and I
Speaker 3: wish it was just I wish I wasn't in the
Speaker 3: middle of it. Wow.
Speaker 1: That like changes that I feel like, if I go
Speaker 1: back and watch the episode now, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: like so much more sad for you.
Speaker 2: It's like you're going through it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and that's that's the that's the sad part
Speaker 3: about it. But you know, honestly, I was able to
Speaker 3: pull my emotion out and kind of just feel like, Okay, Tessa,
Speaker 3: Like I can only imagine what you're going through because
Speaker 3: you know, your mom is claiming that she's been you know, violated,
Speaker 3: and your dad is someone that you love and he's
Speaker 3: saying that he didn't do it, and you want to
Speaker 3: protect them. You want to protect the both of them
Speaker 3: because you love the both of them, and it's like
Speaker 3: you're being forced to choose, and I'm just like, man,
Speaker 3: like I can relate to that in a sense, because
Speaker 3: I do feel like, you know, my parents are kind
Speaker 3: of like, you know, forcing me to choose a little
Speaker 3: bit because one is unhappy with the other, and I
Speaker 3: love the both of them. And so yeah, that moment
Speaker 3: was pretty intense, and they had like a whole bunch
Speaker 3: of people around staring, and it was just I thought
Speaker 3: it was really cool though.
Speaker 2: Overall, Yeah, I bet, I mean, you slay your performance.
Speaker 2: So yeah, you're amazing, very good. I hope you, darlings
Speaker 2: made time to act again. So I was watching some
Speaker 2: of your music videos and you directed them, And this
Speaker 2: might be a stretch, but did you learn anything on
Speaker 2: set at SVU that kind of you kept with you
Speaker 2: to help you and you're the number one on the
Speaker 2: call sheet or directing.
Speaker 3: I got a lot of information as far as just
Speaker 3: you know, the call sheet, how to work a call sheet,
Speaker 3: how the production assistance work. The director, you know, he's
Speaker 3: very like he goes over the shot list, and it's
Speaker 3: that's something that you have to do when you're working
Speaker 3: on music videos.
Speaker 2: You have to have a shot list.
Speaker 3: There's so many moving parts and continuity is extremely important
Speaker 3: and that's something that you have to also consider when
Speaker 3: you're directing a music video like so that the themes
Speaker 3: connect to each other. But it's a lot of hard work.
Speaker 3: I love grinding like that, like I love being a
Speaker 3: part of a production. I love seeing things on paper
Speaker 3: and then actually coming to life. Like I think that's
Speaker 3: really really cool.
Speaker 1: It sounds like at the moment, you're mostly focusing on
Speaker 1: your music, do you, But are you still doing acting
Speaker 1: like here and there on the side, or is it
Speaker 1: mostly like music right now?
Speaker 3: I love music, you know, I love acting. It's just
Speaker 3: really wild because I can sing and act.
Speaker 2: But I really did have to.
Speaker 3: Take some time out to focus on the music because
Speaker 3: that's my first love and I wanted to get, you know,
Speaker 3: my team together. I wanted to get all of the
Speaker 3: key people together to make what my what my dreams
Speaker 3: are for my music to happen. But as far as acting,
Speaker 3: I know that I'm gonna have to take the same
Speaker 3: amount of time to put into acting because both worlds
Speaker 3: are very very busy. Let me just say that both
Speaker 3: worlds are very very busy, and you can you can
Speaker 3: be a singer and an actress at the same time,
Speaker 3: but the focus is intense, especially for acting, and I
Speaker 3: don't ever want to get on camera or you know,
Speaker 3: on a film, and people are like, oh man, she's
Speaker 3: a great she's a great artist with who she cannot
Speaker 3: act she's very stiff.
Speaker 2: So I would I would.
Speaker 3: Want my focus to be really like centered. If I'm
Speaker 3: gonna if I'm gonna act, then I'm going to focus
Speaker 3: on acting. And so I feel like I have to
Speaker 3: take some time out for that, just like I've done
Speaker 3: with singing.
Speaker 2: Did you grow up in a creative home? How did
Speaker 2: you find out that you could like sing and act?
Speaker 2: I watched your star searches there. Incredible voice.
Speaker 1: So you're so cute and you're like so passionate, like
Speaker 1: so common, and you like sing like an adult.
Speaker 2: You they're so sweet.
Speaker 3: I was such a baby. Yeah, that's crazy. You guys
Speaker 3: watched all of those videos. I still get embarrassed.
Speaker 2: I can't even watch them. Know you were so and
Speaker 2: like you're you're like the only thing that was weird
Speaker 2: to me is why that one of the judges was
Speaker 2: Ben Stein, the guy from the Eye Drop commercial, And
Speaker 2: I was like, what's he doing there?
Speaker 3: I know, I know, I remember him too. And they
Speaker 3: were all nice though. They were all very nice and honestly,
Speaker 3: like I think I was kind of like oblivious. I
Speaker 3: really didn't know what was going on exactly. I just
Speaker 3: knew I was a kid who wanted to sing and
Speaker 3: who wanted to eat and you know, go to Hollywood.
Speaker 3: That was my first That was first on my list,
Speaker 3: Like I told my dad when I was nine years old,
Speaker 3: I was like that, you know, I want to go
Speaker 3: to Hollywood. I really want to be like j Lo,
Speaker 3: And so that was the first place I went to.
Speaker 3: It's crazy how it manifested.
Speaker 2: Wow, that was amazing. I'm sort of starstruck.
Speaker 1: She has like twenty million views on one of her
Speaker 1: YouTube videos with Sierra Well.
Speaker 2: I love glam. I like that she was going to
Speaker 2: make up donel'le talking. She's like, I'm a girl, I'm
Speaker 2: a go in a pandemic. I gotta go. Yeah. I
Speaker 2: can't wait to listen to her new stuff. And it
Speaker 2: makes sense. I mean, obviously we want dirt from the
Speaker 2: set and how everyone was just high fiving and like
Speaker 2: eating cakes together, but it is a serious episode. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I wonder if the vibe does change from episode to episode.
Speaker 1: Very true, Yeah, because it's like, hmm, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think of who else we've talked to.
Speaker 2: I'm not evenna say anyth because I don't even know
Speaker 2: the order, but like, there's just something so scary about
Speaker 2: the burned, the end the burning. Like obviously the show
Speaker 2: is about sexual assault, like there's every episode's pretty hard,
Speaker 2: but there's something about that ending that lingers and scares me.
Speaker 2: I really well.
Speaker 1: I think it's because there's almost like two endings of
Speaker 1: that episode. There's like the scream when they're walking out
Speaker 1: of the burn unit, where you're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: that's so horrific, and then there's the second ending later
Speaker 1: where you find out that she dies, So it's like
Speaker 1: a double trauma whammy.
Speaker 2: It must have been so crazy to have your parents
Speaker 2: be going through a divorce and then being on the
Speaker 2: set of like the worst divorce you could ever imagine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally as like a teen. Yeah, I'm glad
Speaker 1: she was able to pull from it because she was
Speaker 1: really good, and.
Speaker 2: I'd like to I think I learned that I would
Speaker 2: love to be in a movie with Blair Underwood and
Speaker 2: have him coach me, give me some acting tips.
Speaker 1: You'd love to have Robert crom Sex in the city
Speaker 1: give you some acting tips. I would, Yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: it's like I don't know what the I don't know
Speaker 1: what the what we've learned is here because it's like
Speaker 1: no one can anticipate that their ex is going to
Speaker 1: douse them with like gas and like.
Speaker 2: The thing, yes, but the thing is Kara, she did
Speaker 2: and she begged for a restraining order and continue in
Speaker 2: real life. Yeah, so in yeah, you're right in real life.
Speaker 2: So I think the lesson we kind of know, but
Speaker 2: I wish everyone else would learn is we need to
Speaker 2: change the way.
Speaker 1: To process women when they talk about domestic violence, they're
Speaker 1: not exaggerating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like we shouldn't wait until something bad happens.
Speaker 2: And I voted this last selection. Voting for all the
Speaker 2: judges was so fucked up. I was researching all the
Speaker 2: judges in Illinois. One had sexual assaults accusations against him,
Speaker 2: called a prosecutor a bit. I've just one judge put
Speaker 2: two people away unfairly for decades for crimes they didn't command.
Speaker 2: I was reading about like probably fifty judges, and so
Speaker 2: many of them are shady. I feel like, take polity
Speaker 2: out a judge. I don't know what is the answer,
Speaker 2: but like get old way gross people off the benches.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know what we have to do.
Speaker 1: But if you're listening and you're an old, white, gross judge,
Speaker 1: we common for you.
Speaker 2: But like, yeah, we need better judges, a better court system,
Speaker 2: and maybe this podcast will fix everything. Yes, I also
Speaker 2: learned iced hated children until we had channaw.
Speaker 1: So for this week's what would Sister Peg Do, where
Speaker 1: we direct you towards a resource. We wanted to get
Speaker 1: your eyes on the Hotline, which is www dot the
Speaker 1: Hotline dot org, which is a place you can go
Speaker 1: for domestic violence resources and help. And I'm actually really
Speaker 1: impressed with this website. Like the minute you go to it,
Speaker 1: it gives you like a security alert in case your
Speaker 1: Internet usage is being monitored, like it's very It gives
Speaker 1: you can live chat, you can talk, get a phone number,
Speaker 1: and it's the National Domestic Violence Hotline and it is
Speaker 1: of coursempletely confidential.
Speaker 2: Next week we will be covering iconic episode Babes Season ten,
Speaker 2: episode six. Please watch along with us Hulu Peacock. Buy
Speaker 2: some DVDs while you're at it. It's the holiday season.
Speaker 1: I bet they're all on super discount now because it's
Speaker 1: after Christmas. Go out and buy all twenty two seasons
Speaker 1: of SVU on DVD and we'll see you guys next week.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production. If you
Speaker 2: have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you
Speaker 2: like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's
Speaker 2: Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 1: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 1: personally at Kara Clink and at Glitter Cheese. As always,
Speaker 1: please see our show notes for sources and more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our producer and fellow SVU
Speaker 2: super fan Hannah Kyle Craton.
Speaker 1: Thank you to our heroes Stephen Ray Morris and Annalie
Speaker 1: Snelson are engineers.
Speaker 2: To Henry Kaperski Musical Extraordinaire for our theme song.
Speaker 1: To our artistic Queen, Carly gen Andrews for all of
Speaker 1: our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start,
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgareff, Danielle Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 2: Listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher,
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Speaker 3: Dug