1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: we don't have an amazing show for you Today. Professor 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: Lawrence Lessig and Matthew Seligman stop by to talk their 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: new book, How to Steal a Presidential Election. But first 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 1: we have the author of the new handbook for a 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: post row America, an executive director of the West Alabama 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: Women's Center, Robin Marty. Welcome back to Fast Politics, Robin Marty, thank. 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 2: You so much for having me back. It's always so 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: much fun. 12 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you whenever I am thinking 13 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: about how women have lost a right they had for 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: fifty years and we were told. 15 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 3: It was not a big deal. So you're in Alabama, 16 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 3: used to have an. 17 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: Abortion clinic, you now have an STD clinic. 18 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: Right, I'm just going to say, right now, I have 19 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 2: the most amazing clinic, and I'm so excited about it. 20 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: I'm actually really excited about twenty twenty four. And I 21 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 2: don't know when this is going to run exactly. So 22 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you a secret, which is he 23 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 2: just hired a doula. 24 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 4: Yes, we already do prenatal care. 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 2: We do STI testing and in treatment, we do annual exams, 26 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: we do contraception. All of our stuff is free in 27 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 2: sliding scale. One of the things that has really frustrated 28 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 2: us about the work that we do is that there's 29 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 2: only one hospital in Tuscaloosa, and obviously there's only two 30 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 2: hospitals in western. 31 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 4: Alabama in general. 32 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 2: And our doctor is not allowed to deliver at our 33 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 2: hospital because she used to do abortions. 34 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 3: Say that one more time. 35 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, our doctor is not allowed to deliver at the 36 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 2: hospital deliver babies. 37 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 4: Yes. 38 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: I don't know if they think she's just like suddenly 39 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: going to in the middle of it, go oh oops, 40 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 2: what do I do with this one? 41 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 3: Or what I'm here to kill everyone. 42 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: They have literally told us that there's no point in 43 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: her applying for a transfer agreement or very agreement or 44 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: anything like that because they're not going to grant it. 45 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: And they suggested that we maybe use a hospital that's 46 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 2: like almost an hour away, which these are patients who 47 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: are low income, often uninsured or on Medicaid. It is 48 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 2: difficult for them to travel and often they have complications. 49 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: We want them to be able to use the hospital 50 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: that is in their city, but so can't deliver, and 51 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: none of the doctors will work with us. They have 52 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: all said no. So what happens is we provide prenatal 53 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: care for a patient, and we do this because we 54 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: let people in immediately, we verify their pregnancy, which is 55 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 2: what they need to do in order to get onto 56 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: insurance or Medicaid. We see these patients until the point 57 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 2: that they get their insurance and we see them for free, 58 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: and then the point that they get insured, they can 59 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 2: start to look for another doctor because no doctor will 60 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: see them until they have insurance. But doctors don't want 61 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: to see Medicaid patients, they don't want to see uninsured patients, 62 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: and so we can't get these patients in anywhere. So 63 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 2: often we're finding that our patients can't get doctors. Will 64 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: go into the hospital in what is known as an 65 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: unattached patient and so what that means is they show up, 66 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 2: they can't pre register for the hospital. They can't do 67 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: anything like if they need non stress tests, which is 68 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 2: something that you do once a week, were diabetic. 69 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 3: And a lot of these women may be diabetic. 70 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't order a labor induction if somebody is 71 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 2: superpast due and we think that it's time for that, 72 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: we can't do any of these things. All we can 73 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: do is after every appointment, we give the patient her 74 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: paperwork so that she can take that file with her 75 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: and then she is allowed to show up in the 76 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: hospital when she's in the labor And one of the 77 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: things that were really terrified by is they're going in 78 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: there with no ally, nobody to help make sure the 79 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: doctor is listening to them, and we don't know how 80 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: the doctors treat them. Because we know how the doctor 81 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: is treating our staff and saying that we are no good, right, 82 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 2: not great, we don't know answers over to the patients. 83 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 2: And we also know that this hospital is not kind 84 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: to black women, and almost all of our patients are black. 85 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: So now we have been able to hire a doula 86 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: onto staff, which is such a huge blessing and something 87 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: that I've been trying to do, trying to get the 88 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 2: money together for over a year now, and we finally 89 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 2: were able to get it. She'll be starting next year 90 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: and we will be able to offer adula every patient 91 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 2: who stays with us, and she will be able to 92 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: accompany them into the hospital. 93 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: When I'm listening to I'm hearing the incredible racism that 94 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: these women face. And you'll remember that maternal fetal mortality 95 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: is i think, many multitudes higher for black women than 96 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: it is for white women. 97 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: Not only is it many multitudes higher right now in Alabama, 98 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: which is in Alabama, every one in one hundred black 99 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 2: women is likely to die in birth. That's how bad 100 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 2: it is. The highest patient is. 101 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: If you're a black woman, you go into the hospital 102 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: with a one percent chance of dying in childbirth. 103 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 3: In the year twenty twenty three. 104 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, And we just had the latest statistics for 105 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: infant mortality and in Alabama, infant mortality actually did decrease 106 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: this year. 107 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 4: Which it is unlike any of the other states. 108 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 2: However, it decreased for white babies, and it decreased a 109 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 2: lot for white babies, but it's still increased for black babies. 110 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 3: Wait say that one more time. 111 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: If you were having a white baby, that baby is 112 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 2: less likely to die this year than it was last year. However, 113 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: if you are having a black baby, that baby is 114 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: more likely to die than last year. And so our 115 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: state was praising the fact that our infant mortality rate 116 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: went down, but it was entirely just for the white population. 117 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: There's so many levels of injustice here. I just can't 118 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: even break it down. This is what the Republicans want. 119 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: These are people having babies. These are people not having 120 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: abortions because they can't get abortions. 121 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 3: Talk to me about what it is like. I mean, 122 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: so you have a baby, you have more likely to die. 123 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 3: I mean, it's just incredible. 124 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: But they're forcing you to have the babies because it's 125 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: all about life, right. 126 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: Well, and it's more than forcing someone to have a baby, 127 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 2: they are forcing people to become pregnant. In my opinion, 128 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 2: there is has been no push in any way, shape 129 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: or form, no financial incentive, no nothing to make sure 130 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: that contraception is getting to people who do not have 131 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 2: the ability to pay for it. It is just not there. 132 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: Here we are with no legal abortion, with the rising 133 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 2: maternal mortality issues, and you still cannot access contraception in 134 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: the state of Alabama if you don't have insurance or 135 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: if you are on Medicaid unless you go to a 136 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 2: county health department. These are people who do not have 137 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 2: primary care physicians, so they cannot get it that way. 138 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: There is one Planned Parenthood clinic left in the entire state. 139 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 2: The others have closed, and so there's Planned Parenthood and 140 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 2: there's US and we are the places where a person 141 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 2: can go to be able to get this free or 142 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 2: no cost birth control. And so when you are not 143 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 2: allowing people to be able to access contraception, one of 144 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 2: the reasons being, of course, that Medicaid has not been 145 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 2: expanded yet. But there are a myridate of other ways 146 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: that they could make this accessible. They could provide grants 147 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 2: to different cities. They could tap individual doctors and ask 148 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: them to do it. There are all these ways that 149 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: they could expand Title ten. But instead our state still 150 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: has the rule that says Title ten funding, the millions 151 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: of dollars that we get from the federal government can 152 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: only be dispersed via a county health department, even though 153 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: the county health departments are understaffed, often closed, and so 154 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: the weight is many months. 155 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: Jesus, I'm not surprised because every time I talk to you, 156 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: why I love to talk to you, besides the fact 157 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: that you're smart and you're right, and you're a good 158 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: person and you're just doing the real work on the ground. 159 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 3: One of the reasons why I love to talk to you. 160 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: Is because you are really seeing what's happening in Alabama 161 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: in a way that people in government or even who 162 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: are in media are not necessarily seeing it. So I'm 163 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: hoping you could talk to me about are people still 164 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: getting abortions in Alabama? 165 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 3: I mean, what does it look like, what's happening. 166 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 4: I'm not sure. 167 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: We know that there's already been an uptick in pregnancies 168 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 2: and childbirths in that six month period that was in 169 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. We did see that number go up 170 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: that has been qualified in statistics. So definitely there are 171 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 2: less people getting abortions. 172 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:31,119 Speaker 4: We know that much. 173 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: We are not, I will say, we are seeing less 174 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 2: people coming in asking about abortion, which in some ways 175 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: is really good because we can't say anything still because 176 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: of this horrible lawsuit that we're running against the Attorney General. 177 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: The Attorney General says that if we provide them with 178 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: any information about an abortion, even if it's a legal 179 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: abortion in a legal state, we could be held as 180 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 2: part of a criminal conspiracy. So that's something that we're 181 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: still waiting to go through the courts. It was supposed 182 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 2: to have a hearing end of October and it got 183 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 2: postponed and we haven't heard anything since. So at this point, 184 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: basically me and my staff were still gagged from providing 185 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: any literally like public information, but people are not coming 186 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: in as much. I will say that in Tuscaloosa, we 187 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 2: are seeing a definite uptick in the number of pregnant 188 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 2: patients that we're seeing. 189 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 4: We used to. 190 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 2: See maybe three or four new pregnancies come in a week. 191 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: Now we're seeing probably at least fifteen people who come 192 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: in for pregnancy verification and paperwork, and of them, like 193 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: probably half of them stay with us at least for 194 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: a few months to get their prenatal care. So it's 195 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 2: definitely difficult for people to go get abortions. I don't 196 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: think as many people are trying to get abortions. Our 197 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: abortion fund is still not able to provide any sort 198 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 2: of funding for abortions. But also, this is a community 199 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: that has lacked healthcare, that is preventive healthcare. They lack 200 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: basic quality issues, safe housing, and good food, all of 201 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: the things that a person needs in order to be healthy. 202 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 2: And because of that, I do not know what the 203 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 2: rates of miscarriage is and what is induced miscarriage, or 204 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 2: whether that is just people having miscarriages, because that's what 205 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: happens when you have unhealthy bodies and they're made pregnant. 206 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 2: I do think that that is increasing. I don't have 207 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: numbers that I can point to yet that show that. 208 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: But you're not seeing healthy patients, I will put it 209 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 2: that way, and we are likely seeing patients. I can 210 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 2: say that we are seeing patients that we've already seen 211 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: who are pregnant before, who are not pregnant now, who 212 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: are pregnant again, and so they don't always tell us 213 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 2: that they had a miscarriage or if they went and 214 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 2: had an abortion. But I will say that the amount 215 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 2: of people giving birth is going up, but that it's 216 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 2: not as much as I think it should be. 217 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 3: Right, So it might be people taking medication. 218 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 2: Abortion, yeah, it might be, but it all might just 219 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: be people who are having miscarriages, which, honestly, that worries 220 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 2: me because miscarriages are I don't know what I would 221 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: to say. It's expensive because if you go to a hospital, 222 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 2: that is a huge hospital bill, especially for people who 223 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 2: were uninsured. Miscarrien that have a lot of potential danger 224 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: to them if they aren't followed up on. Honestly, I'm 225 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 2: just really extremely worried about our community in general. 226 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 1: So we have two women in the news right now, 227 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: Kcox and Britney Watts, and I feel like these cases 228 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: are in my mind, revably liked because they are two 229 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: women who So I want. 230 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,359 Speaker 3: To talk first to you about Kcox. 231 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: Yes, the most attractive white person you've ever seen in 232 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: your life. Yeah, she is the world's greatest plaintiff. 233 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 2: Right's aster child of the justified abortion? 234 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 4: Yes, for sure, exactly. 235 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: She's got two kids, she wants a more kids, She's 236 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 1: had sections, she's worried about it. 237 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 3: I mean, it just is like, it's not a baby. 238 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 3: It's twenty one weeks. 239 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: It has a zero point zero chance of surviving. 240 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 3: If it survives, it does in her arms. 241 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: Okay, So when they were lying about the abortion exception, 242 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: this was the lie that they that they were shopping right, 243 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: it was a lie, and she exposed that. Why do 244 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: you think My question about Kacox is more like, why 245 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: aren't we seeing more plaintiffs like this? 246 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: Because the type of people who are likely to have 247 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: wanted pregnancies that go wrong are the type of people 248 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 2: who have the most resources to leave, and they're not 249 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: put themselves through this. The reality is that when it 250 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 2: comes to abortion, abortion, while not dangerous, it is always safer, 251 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 2: the easy, the earlier you do it. And also, nobody 252 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: wants to be pregnant with when they don't want to 253 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 2: be Like, nobody wants to carry around a child that 254 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 2: they know is never going to result in a live 255 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: birth if they are pregnant and wanted to be pregnant. 256 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 2: I know personally when I had a miss miscarritage during 257 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: my second pregnancy, the moment I found out that there 258 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: was a non viable fetus inside of me, all I 259 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 2: could think every moment was get it out, get it out, 260 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: get it out, get it out. How fast could I 261 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 2: do it? How quickly could I get it done? I 262 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 2: could not imagine going through what Kikoks went through in 263 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 2: order to try to get permission and to do this 264 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: lawsuit in order to stay home. 265 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 4: Honestly, she's a hero just for that. 266 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, she really is a hero just for that. And 267 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 3: she's put herself through how. 268 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: And I mean honestly, the idea of a court coming 269 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 2: back and saying I'm sorry, but your life is not 270 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 2: worth it. There is no justifiable reason for you to 271 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: have an abortion if you die, So be it that's 272 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: a risk that you run for being pregnant, because that's 273 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 2: what I think. The other side of this is just 274 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: I don't know how much inherent belief I used to 275 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 2: trap all the time as a reporter, the idea that 276 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: they were leaving exceptions, like the original Texas Tony mcphn 277 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: had no exceptions. They leave out fetal y and they 278 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 2: say it's because doctors can be wrong, and so what 279 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: do we do with politicians and a legal system that 280 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 2: do not believe in medicine? Honestly, if people ever get outraged, 281 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: and God, I hope like regular people finally get outraged 282 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 2: at some point about what anti abortion activism has done 283 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: to this nation. 284 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 4: It is about how utterly. 285 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 2: Destroyed doctor patient relationships in every sort of form. People 286 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 2: can't trust doctors anymore because politicians say that they don't 287 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: actually know things, or that God can step in a 288 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 2: mega miracle. Our patients can't trust us because we can't 289 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 2: necessarily give them all of the information that they should 290 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: be allowed to add about their pregnancy and their choices. 291 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 2: We can't trust our patients because we don't know if 292 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 2: they are actually seeking an abortion or trying to gather 293 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: evidence against us for a lawsuit like the way that 294 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: they have destroyed any ability for medicine to be practiced 295 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 2: in an open and helpful and patient centered way is 296 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: just horrifying Jesus. 297 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 3: So okay, so Kecox. We talked about that, Brittany Watts. 298 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: That is an example of how any person can be 299 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 2: accused of an abortion, and that we told people would happen. 300 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: We told people it doesn't matter if they write these 301 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 2: laws that say, oh, but the person who is having 302 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: an abortion is exempt. 303 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 3: Let me just explain. 304 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: Brindany Watts, black woman in Ohio has a miscarriage. She 305 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,239 Speaker 1: knows something is wrong. She goes to the hospital twice. 306 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: Two times. The doctor send her home and tell her 307 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: she's okay. She has a miscarriage twenty one weeks in 308 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: the toilet. It's not a baby, fleshes the whatever that 309 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: fetal tissue or blood down the toilet. It gets stuck. 310 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: She plunges the toilet. She's now being charged with corpse mango, 311 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: some kind of weird. 312 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 4: Deification of a corpse. 313 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: Yes, defecation of a corpse. 314 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: The medical examiner said the fetus was dead before it 315 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: was expelled. She is a juryous deciding whether or not 316 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: she should stand trial. 317 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 2: She is every patient in all honesty, If I had 318 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: a dollar for every patient that has told us that 319 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 2: they went to the hospital because they thought they were 320 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: miscarrying and have been so at home our point, it 321 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 2: would be funded. 322 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 4: That is what happens. 323 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: We've already seen, like the New York Times article that 324 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 2: came out Tuesday about how doctors with their inherent racial 325 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: bias will often ignore what a patient is telling them 326 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: when something is wrong when it's a black woman. That 327 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 2: is what happens. I was thinking a lot yesterday about 328 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: the idea that we know that especially out here, doctors 329 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 2: are primarily white obgin's even primarily white, primarily male, and 330 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: the patriarchal and racism that goes with being an OBGYN 331 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: in the South, And I started thinking a lot about 332 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 2: we talk about all the different things that could impact that, 333 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: About how abortion bands are driving people away from wanting 334 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 2: to practice down here, about how abortion bands are ending 335 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: training so that people are able to get the training 336 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: that they need to be able to provide abortions or 337 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 2: miscarriage management. But one of the things that I never 338 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 2: really thought about that really popped into my head yesterday 339 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: was the idea of how our lack of sexual education 340 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 2: is laying enough foundation that is going to make it 341 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: so that nobody wants to practice gynecology down here, because 342 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 2: we don't talk about sex, we don't talk about body parts. 343 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: Nobody thinks about, oh hey, this is something that I 344 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 2: might want to go into at some point, because sex 345 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 2: is this taboo, nasty thing out here that nobody in 346 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: polite society would even discuss. How is that impacting a 347 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 2: child who is going up through elementary school, who's going 348 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 2: into high school. How is this impacting people who might 349 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 2: decide to go to medical school because this is not 350 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: something then that everybody is going to think is accessible 351 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 2: and acceptable and something that they should do. And so 352 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: I think that we are looking at essentially a multiple 353 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: generational loss of having providers, and especially providers who are 354 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: in communities and no communities and are of the people 355 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 2: that they will be serving and treating. 356 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, Jesus. 357 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Rob, And I hope you'll come 358 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: back anytime. 359 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 2: I hate I say it's fun, but I love being 360 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 2: unrestantly knew what's. 361 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: Going on here. Lawrence Lessig is a professor at Harvard 362 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: University and Matthew Seligman is a fellow at the Constitutional 363 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: Law Center at Stanford University. They are both authors of 364 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: How to Steal a Presidential Election, which is available for 365 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: pre order now. 366 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 5: Welcome Matthew, Hi, nice to be here, and welcome Larie. 367 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 2: Great to be here. 368 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 3: So the book is how to Steal an Election. 369 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: First, we're going to talk about these faithless electors. So 370 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: talk to me about what that is and what it 371 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: means in the process of stealing elections. 372 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 6: Yeah, So, since the beginning of the Republic, there have 373 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 6: been electors who've been chosen and then decided to vote 374 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 6: in a way contrary to how people expect it. The 375 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 6: very first one of these was in seventeen ninety six 376 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 6: with a guy named Sam Miles who has chosen to 377 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 6: support Adams in Pennsylvania, but when the votes came in, 378 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 6: it seemed like Jefferson actually had one Pennsylvania, so he 379 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 6: decided to vote for Jefferson, and that infuriated people because 380 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 6: he was selected for the purpose of voting for Adams, 381 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 6: and he changed his vote and voted for Jefferson. Nonetheless, 382 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 6: when the Twelfth Amendment came along, which was the only 383 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 6: major amendment of the electoral College process. They didn't change 384 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 6: that process, giving electors their freedom to vote as they wanted. 385 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 6: So throughout history you've had an electors deciding to vote 386 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 6: contrary to how they were pledged. In twenty sixteen, this 387 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 6: became quite a serious issue because a bunch of electors, 388 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 6: after seeing that Donald Trump had not won the popular 389 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 6: vote even though he had won the electoral college vote, 390 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 6: decided to get together and try to persuade enough Republican 391 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 6: electors to vote for somebody other than Donald Trump, so 392 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 6: it could go to the House of Representatives and the 393 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 6: House side to vote however they wanted. They could vote 394 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 6: for Donald Trump, they could vote for another Republican, they 395 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 6: couldn't principal vote have voted for Hillary Clinton. But that 396 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 6: obviously was not going to happen, so they tried to 397 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 6: rally people. They failed to rally enough Republicans. They rallied 398 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 6: a couple and then after the ELEC action, a couple 399 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 6: of them were fined. And I actually took the case 400 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 6: to the Supreme Court to decide whether this tradition that 401 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 6: had existed since the founding of electors being allowed to 402 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 6: exercise their judgment was actually constitutionally protected or whether states 403 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 6: could overturn it. That was pretty clear it was constitutionally protected. 404 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 6: But nine zips the Court went the other way. 405 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: So that's so interesting to me because I thought it 406 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: was constitutionally protected. 407 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 6: Yeah, so did I. In twenty twenty, I guess it 408 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 6: was July of twenty twenty, the Supreme Court decided nine 409 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 6: to zero that in fact, the states could control how 410 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 6: electors could vote. So this creates two real problems in 411 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 6: the upcoming election. One problem it creates is just that 412 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 6: not all states actually control how the electors can vote. 413 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 6: So there's a bunch of states still where the electors 414 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 6: are free to vote however they want, and so on principle, 415 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 6: you could imagine candidates persuading electors to switch their vote. 416 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 6: It's never happened for an illegitimate reason in the history 417 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 6: of the Republic. You know, there's been legitimate reasons. You 418 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 6: could agree or just agree with them, but that's still 419 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 6: an open question right now. But the second more dangerous issue, 420 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 6: which the Supreme Court case created is that you can 421 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 6: imagine a legislature after an election deciding it didn't like 422 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 6: the results of the election or didn't have confidence in 423 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 6: the results of the election. What they can't do at 424 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 6: that point is pick a new slate of electors. But 425 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 6: what they can do, we argue, under the reasoning of 426 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 6: the Supreme Court case, is basically tell their electors how 427 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 6: they must vote. So the electors could have been elected 428 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 6: to vote for Joe Biden, and then the legislature passes 429 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 6: the law that says, we actually think the real winner 430 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 6: in our state was Donald Trump, so we direct you 431 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 6: to vote for Donald Trump. And the Supreme Court upheld 432 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 6: the procedure that said that if they don't vote the 433 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 6: way they've been directed, they can be removed and replaced 434 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 6: with somebody who will. So this is a huge hole 435 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 6: in the electoral system that's been created, and there's no 436 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 6: obvious way to fill it unless the Supreme Court finds 437 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 6: a way to reach out and clarify or restrict the 438 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 6: scope of their decision. 439 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: So this is different than what happened with Trump and 440 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: his slates of fake electors. 441 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about that. 442 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 6: In the lead up into the twenty twenty election, Trump 443 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 6: obviously was fighting in every single court he could to 444 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 6: get the results in key swing states reversed. And it's 445 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 6: just an unfortunate feature of our electoral college system that 446 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 6: the electors have to vote on a particular day, and 447 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 6: that day might actually be before the results in a 448 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 6: state are decided. So in nineteen sixty in Hawaii, the 449 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 6: election seemed to go for Richard Nixon. Then there was 450 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 6: a recount ordered, and that recount and certification didn't occur 451 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 6: or didn't complete until after the electors had to vote. 452 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 6: So what the Democratic electors did as well as the 453 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 6: Republican electors is they both met on the day electors 454 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 6: were supposed to vote and cast their ballots, the Democratics 455 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 6: for Kennedy, the Republicans for Nixon. And then when the 456 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 6: election was finally resolved, the slate of electors for Kennedy 457 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 6: was urgently sent to the capital. Nixon ones had already 458 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 6: been sent and Nixon was the vice president, and Nixon said, well, 459 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 6: it's kind of an odd situation, but not setting any president, 460 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,959 Speaker 6: I'm going to recommend we count the votes for Kennedy, 461 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 6: and Kennedy's votes were counted. That Trump electors and the 462 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 6: lawyers for Trump, Ken Chesboro most directly everyone's favorite, so 463 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 6: they knew of this president, this president. Chesboro was urgently 464 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 6: writing memos to states around the country, saying that if 465 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 6: you want your electoral votes to count, they've got to 466 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 6: be cast on elector Day. Now, in some states that 467 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 6: was completely bogus, Like New Mexico, the Trump campaign filed 468 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 6: a lawsuit fifteen minutes before the electors were supposed to 469 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 6: vote to somehow create cover for Republican electors to vote, 470 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 6: even though the state had been decided by more than 471 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 6: ten points for Biden. In other states, it was more open. 472 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 6: The state of Wisconsin had an ongoing state court proceeding 473 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 6: which was resolved only fifteen minutes before or the electors 474 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 6: were supposed to vote. At least a vote to the 475 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 6: state Supreme Court was resolved then, but they still hadn't 476 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 6: filed their motion for rehearings, so plausibly, they had an 477 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 6: ongoing chance that their votes would count, so they also 478 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 6: met and cast their ballots. Now, all of these electors 479 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 6: are called fake electors. I think I believe, and I 480 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 6: think Matt agrees with me, that it's not fair to 481 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 6: call all of them fake electors. If you genuinely believe 482 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 6: the election is undecided, the only way your votes could 483 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 6: ever count is if you gather and vote on elector Day. 484 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 6: It's just a flaw system. So if they genuinely, in 485 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 6: good faith believed it was an unresolved election, then it's 486 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 6: a good thing they gather and vote, because if they didn't, 487 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 6: their votes couldn't count. This is one of the lessons 488 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 6: that Ken Chesbro learned because he worked for al Gore 489 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 6: in two thousand and the lawyers for al Gore made 490 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 6: the incredibly stupid mistake of conceding that everything had to 491 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 6: be resolved by what's called the safe Harbor Day, which 492 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 6: was days before the electors were supposed to vote. So 493 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 6: the Gore electors actually never voted on Elector's Day. They 494 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 6: never cast their ballots. Even if somehow the whole system 495 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 6: had converted and recounted happened and Gore had won, there 496 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 6: wouldn't have been any electoral votes to be counted on 497 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 6: January six. So that's why Ken Chasburrow was so keen 498 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 6: to make sure the same thing didn't happen with Donald Trump. 499 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 6: But obviously More's claims for legitimate recount were stronger than 500 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 6: Donald Trump's. 501 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: So Matthew, I think we need to talk about John Eastman. 502 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 3: You were a witness in that case. Can we talk 503 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 3: about that? 504 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 6: Sure? 505 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 5: So that's right. I was the expert witness for the 506 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 5: State Bar of California in John Eastman's dispartment proceeding earlier 507 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 5: this year, and so the principal issue that I testified 508 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 5: about is the powers were, to be more precise, the 509 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 5: lack of powers that the vice president has in the 510 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 5: electoral count The twelfth Amendment, which is what governs our 511 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 5: electoral college, says that the President of the Senate, who 512 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 5: is the Vice President, shall open the certificates in the 513 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 5: presidence of the Senate in the House of Representatives, and 514 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 5: then the votes shall be counted. And it says that 515 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 5: in the passive voice, and as a result of that 516 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 5: hassive voice, it doesn't say exactly who does the counting. 517 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 5: John Eastman and others, including Ken Chesbro, advanced the theory that, well, 518 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 5: actually the vice president is the one who does the 519 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 5: counting of electoral votes, and as a result of that, 520 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 5: the vice president is the one who gets to resolve 521 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 5: any disputes about electoral votes. So if there's more example, 522 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 5: multiple submissions of certificates from different slates of electors, Eastman 523 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 5: advanced the theory that well, it was actually Vice President 524 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 5: Mike Pence who got to make the final decision about that. Now, 525 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 5: the text doesn't fully resolve that issue one way or another. 526 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 5: And so Eastman made a claim about history. He said 527 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 5: that actually, the original understanding of the Constitution, going all 528 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 5: the way back to the seventeen nineties, was that the 529 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 5: vice president resolved disputes about this, and that was the 530 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 5: basis of this fateful advice that he gave in a 531 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 5: dramatical office meeting with President Trump and Vice President Mike Pence, 532 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 5: where he was imploring Vice President Pence to exercise some 533 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 5: unilateral constitutional authority to change the results of the election. Now, 534 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 5: Vice President Pence ended up rejecting that theory, and he 535 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 5: very dramatically, right before the electoral count started and the 536 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 5: violence came to the Capitol, he released this public letter 537 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 5: saying that he didn't believe that that was the right 538 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 5: interpretation of the Constitution. And in this case, Vice President 539 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 5: Mike Pence was right, and President Trump and his lawyers 540 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 5: Eastman and chest Row were wrong. And so the way 541 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 5: that Eastman ended up in a disbarment proceeding isn't just 542 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 5: that he gave incorrect legal advice. It is that he 543 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 5: gave legal advice that had no historical basis whatsoever. So 544 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 5: Eastman based his theory on the idea that in seventeen 545 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 5: ninety seven and eighteen oh one there were vice presidents 546 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 5: John Adams and then Thomas Jefferson who presided over electoral 547 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 5: counts in which they themselves were then elected president. And 548 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 5: according to eu mean those vice presidents Adams and Jefferson 549 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 5: actually resolved disputes unilaterally about electoral votes, about the validity 550 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 5: of electoral votes. In seventeen ninety seven it was about Vermont, 551 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 5: in eighteen oh one, it was about George And according 552 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 5: to Eastman, well that's historical president. That shows that the 553 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 5: way the founders imagined the Constitution and how this would work, 554 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 5: is that the vice president then not Congress, would have 555 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 5: the authority to resolve these sorts of disputes. Now, Eastman's 556 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 5: history was flat out wrong, and so if you go 557 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 5: back and read the records, it's absolutely clear that neither 558 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 5: John Adams nor Thomas Jefferson resolved any disputes about this. 559 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 5: Nobody ever suggested at the time that the vice president 560 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 5: had this authority. And the way the process works from 561 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 5: seventeen ninety one until today, Congress appoints these members of 562 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 5: Congress as tellers, and the tellers do the counting, and 563 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 5: this is still true. But John Eastman used this misunderstanding 564 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 5: of history to say that Vice President Pennce had this 565 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 5: extraordinary Power's stepping back for a second to imagine how 566 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 5: radical that view would be, not just because it defies history, 567 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 5: but also because it would create a system where the 568 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 5: vice president would get to decide whether he won reelection. 569 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 5: We sometimes gloss over the fact that John Eastman's advice 570 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 5: to Mike Pence wasn't just that he could decide that 571 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 5: President Trump would be reelected as president. He was saying 572 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 5: that Mike Pence could decide whether Mike Pence was re 573 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 5: elected as vice president. And that violates a pretty fundamental 574 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 5: principle of the rule of law that no man can 575 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 5: be a judge in his own case. But that's exactly 576 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 5: the theory that they advanced, and it's just completely unsupported 577 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 5: by the history. And you know, it's really difficult to 578 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 5: imagine that that Eastman, that Trump would sit here today 579 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 5: and say that Vice President Kamala Harris has the authority 580 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 5: to decide the election on January sixth of twenty twenty five. 581 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 5: And so I think that illustrates that perhaps they don't 582 00:29:58,560 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 5: have the courage of their convictions. 583 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:05,239 Speaker 1: So there is no there there when it comes to 584 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: Mike Pence changing the vote. 585 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 5: Huh, that's absolutely right. There is no evidence at all. 586 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 5: So there was no dispute about electoral votes that reached 587 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 5: Congress during the electoral count in seventeen ninety seven or 588 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 5: eighteen oh one, and so there was no dispute to resolve. 589 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 5: And after each of those electoral counts, exactly zero people 590 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 5: said anything. And so, according to Sman's theory, John Adams 591 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 5: and Thomas Jefferson each unilaterally decided that they would be 592 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 5: elected presidents, and after that nobody said anything. Nobody in 593 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 5: the opposing political party complained at all. And that's like 594 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 5: saying that, well, if Mike Pence counted Trump and Pence 595 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 5: as reelected in twenty twenty one, that there would be 596 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 5: absolutely nobody, not a newspaper column, not an opposing politician, 597 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 5: not the losing candidate, Zero people would have complained about it. 598 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 5: And that's just completely implausible. And when there actually were 599 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 5: disputes about electoral votes, which happened about a half dozen 600 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 5: times in the nineteenth century, the first time was in 601 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 5: eighteen seventeen, then eighteen twenty one, eighteen thirty seven, eighteen 602 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 5: fifty seven, and then eighteen seventy seven, which was the 603 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 5: most serious one. In every single one of those cases, 604 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 5: it is absolutely one hundred percent clear that Congress resolved 605 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 5: a dispute and the Vice President played no role whatsoever. 606 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: What should be done to keep whoever wants to though 607 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: I assume it'll be Trump from stealing this twenty twenty 608 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: four election. 609 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 6: The most important thing to address is the problem with electors, 610 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 6: I think, because if the electors can be told to 611 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 6: vote differently from how they were elected to vote, then 612 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 6: that's an obvious simple way for these brogue state legislatures 613 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 6: to reverse the results. So it's pretty hard to imagine 614 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 6: the Supreme Court addressing that question. I think one big 615 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 6: thing to do is to begin to build out the 616 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 6: understanding that this is possible, and we've got a resolve 617 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 6: that this just is not allowed to happen. So that 618 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 6: would be my first vote, Matt, what's your second vote? 619 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 5: My second vote is that the residual ambiguities and weaknesses 620 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 5: in the Electoral count Reform Act. So Congress did an 621 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 5: extraordinary thing, actually passed election reform, a reform of the 622 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 5: Electoral Count Act. And so prior to the Electoral count 623 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 5: Reform Act, the old ECA, the one that we had 624 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 5: in place on January sixth of twenty twenty one, was 625 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 5: catastrophically vulnerable to manipulation. A single governor defining, you know, 626 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 5: the outcome of the results in his or her state 627 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 5: could potentially flip an election, and there was nothing that 628 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 5: anybody could do about it. And so Congress did this 629 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 5: extraordinary thing in December of twenty twenty two that almost 630 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 5: went unnoticed given how significant it is by closing a 631 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 5: lot of those loopholes. But many loopholes remain, and so 632 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 5: you know, there's still time for Congress to step in. 633 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 5: I'm not overly optimistic that that's going to happen. So 634 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 5: I think that we need to be prepared for the 635 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 5: possibility that these residual loopholes in the Electoral count reformat 636 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 5: can be exploited. And how do we organize against that. Well, 637 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 5: I think there are two things. The first thing that 638 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 5: we do is that we start preparing the legal arguments 639 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 5: that we're going to have to make in court. The 640 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 5: twenty election didn't go to the Supreme Court, but you know, 641 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 5: as Larry indicated, you know, there's I think a serious 642 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 5: risk that there are going to be legal issues that 643 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 5: do end up becoming so severe and potentially outcome determinive. 644 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 5: So it goes to the Supreme Court. So we need 645 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 5: to be prepared to do that. But stepping back from that, 646 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 5: there's something that we election lawyers call the margin of litigation. 647 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 5: And so the reason why Bush vy Gore was such 648 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 5: an intensely disputed election where you know, the election in 649 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 5: New Mexico in twenty twenty where Biden had won by 650 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 5: ten points wasn't is because the difference was so big 651 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 5: in New Mexico. And so we election lawyers talk about 652 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 5: the margin of litigation as if it's not close enough 653 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 5: that there are plausible or at least plausible sounding allegations 654 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 5: of fraud or misconduct or illegality. If the margin is 655 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 5: just really, really big, then these disputes and these legal 656 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 5: questions don't have enough purchase to create real risks. The 657 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 5: most important thing that people can do is vote and 658 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 5: make it so that the margin is outside the margin 659 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 5: of litigation. And now in our new world where election 660 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 5: just speeds go beyond courts and they go to state legislatures, 661 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 5: and they go to Congress, and they go wherever they 662 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 5: can possibly go, making sure that that margin is large 663 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,760 Speaker 5: enough that no state legislature would dare do the things 664 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 5: that we are talking about. If Biden has declared the 665 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 5: winner in let's say Georgia by one hundred votes, then 666 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 5: the state legislature may feel emboldened enough to say, oh, 667 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 5: we think there was there were legal votes, and so 668 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 5: we're going to direct the electors to vote for Trump 669 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 5: instead of Biden. But if the margin is fifty thousand, 670 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 5: then it's much less likely that there's going to be 671 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 5: the political will, the political verb, the political shamelessness to 672 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 5: take that step that would undermine the rule of law 673 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 5: in our democracy. 674 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 3: Thank you both so much. I hope you guys will come. 675 00:34:58,239 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 6: Back every time you ask. 676 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 4: Thanks so much, Molly. 677 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 678 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds 679 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you 680 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend 681 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.