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Speaker 1: This podcast has content that may not be appropriate for

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Speaker 1: all audiences. You'll hear about some difficult subjects like drug abuse,

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Speaker 1: domestic violence, suicidal thoughts, and sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: Episode four, War of the Mothers. The memories we have

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Speaker 1: about our childhoods aren't always like real, solid memories. They're

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Speaker 1: influenced by how other people tell us the stories of

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Speaker 1: our childhoods. Like you see a photo of you are Christmas.

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Speaker 1: You're smiling in the photo, probably holding up a brand

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Speaker 1: new Barbie doll, and your dad's telling you begged him

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Speaker 1: for the barbie for months, and when you opened it,

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Speaker 1: you were so excited that you started sobbing. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to say if you remember the moment or just that

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Speaker 1: story about it. I think that growing up a lot

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Speaker 1: of people believe that their parents are telling the truth.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: The stories about my childhood were told to me by

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Speaker 1: two very different people, my mom and the other woman

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Speaker 1: who raised me, Mamilicha, and they told very different stories.

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Speaker 1: There's one story Mamicha would always tell. It's about the

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Speaker 1: time I went missing. We still don't know what happened,

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Speaker 1: but my Molycha's telling was dramatic. I was kidnapped like

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Speaker 1: something out of the telenovela as we watched religiously, and

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Speaker 1: it made my mom look bad.

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Speaker 3: Mamicha brought it up.

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Speaker 1: All the time. I've never even heard of my mom's

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Speaker 1: version of the story. I guess I assumed she'd lie

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Speaker 1: about it. I don't know if that's fair. She was

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Speaker 1: an addict and all around just unreliable. But my mom

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Speaker 1: was the only person who was actually there, so I

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Speaker 1: wanted to tell her Mamilicha's version and get her version,

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Speaker 1: because somewhere in all this is the closest thing we

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Speaker 1: have have to the truth. This episode is about two

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Speaker 1: women who raised me and their battle to control me,

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Speaker 1: and the narrative I'm Emmy and this is crumbs. It's

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Speaker 1: a show about the things we settle for and the

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Speaker 1: bits of ourselves that make us who we are. So, Mom,

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Speaker 1: we ended the last episode right after your divorce and

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Speaker 1: the beginning of your addiction. Mamilia thought that you getting

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Speaker 1: a divorcement she would be in control again.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, in control of me, but also more importantly,

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Speaker 2: control of you. After Nita and I got divorced, I

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Speaker 2: moved back home with her, and she loved us living

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Speaker 2: with her, and did too, but then I moved out again.

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Speaker 3: Was mamily man when you moved out?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she was, but I was really stubborn and

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Speaker 2: I just had a way of going and doing things

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Speaker 2: my way. I think she let these things happen mainly

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Speaker 2: because she knew I'd be back eventually. Right, So.

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Speaker 1: Mommy started to tell me a story about this time,

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Speaker 1: and the way she told it kind of felt like

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Speaker 1: she had a camera to the house or something.

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Speaker 2: You were her camera.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm aware today, I'm aware.

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Speaker 2: Well, tell me about that story. What does she say?

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Speaker 1: So, it's about that time that you and I were

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Speaker 1: living in that apartment in Shula Vista.

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Speaker 3: We weren't living with her, which is you and me.

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Speaker 1: And it's my understanding that I was watching TV, watching

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Speaker 1: cartoons or something Sessame Street on, and then you were high.

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Speaker 1: You probably fell asleep with maybe like a cigarette in

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Speaker 1: your hand.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I can't picture that because I say that just because

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Speaker 1: I saw that so many times. And then a stranger

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Speaker 1: comes into the house and takes me and you didn't

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Speaker 1: notice because you were too strung out, kind of like

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Speaker 1: the robachicos that they talk about in Mexico. Right, it's

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Speaker 1: based on this myth of like a big scary guy

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Speaker 1: who comes around with the bag and just snatches the kids,

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Speaker 1: puts them in the bag, and runs away.

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Speaker 3: But it's a real thing. It's a real phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: It's like where the kidnapper comes and takes kids from

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Speaker 1: parents who are being negligent. But also like things that

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Speaker 1: I would see on the news when I was little,

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Speaker 1: like organized crime just coming in vans and stealing kids

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Speaker 1: from these little towns in Mexico where they would then

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Speaker 1: disappear and then they'd find the kid dead with missing organs,

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Speaker 1: or they'd play some in different households. That was one

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Speaker 1: of my biggest fears when I was little. The next

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Speaker 1: thing that comes to mind is I'm on the trolley

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Speaker 1: with this in the trench coat, and then they take

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Speaker 1: me on the trolley and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: they changed their mind. They don't want to kidnap me anymore,

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Speaker 1: so they just dumped me in downtown San Diego. And

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Speaker 1: because of what I've been told, the next image that

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Speaker 1: comes up in my mind is in downtown San Diego

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Speaker 1: feeding the pigeons popcorn. That's the version that I grew

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Speaker 1: up with that you were high I got kidnapped by

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Speaker 1: some scary person, that it was because of your neglect.

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Speaker 2: That is so far from the truth.

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Speaker 3: Why don't you tell me your version?

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Speaker 2: That for me was one of the worst days of

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Speaker 2: my life. I even remember exactly what you were wearing

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Speaker 2: that morning. You're in the living room watching sesame. You're

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Speaker 2: wearing some Superman blue pajamas and slippers. You had beautiful

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Speaker 2: blue eyes and curly blonde hair, and your hair was

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Speaker 2: down to your shoulders or longer. You had long hair,

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Speaker 2: beautiful hair, and I'd never cut your hair since you

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Speaker 2: were born. At this point, you would see your dad

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Speaker 2: sometimes he would say like, we got to cut his hair,

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Speaker 2: and I'd be like, no, never. You're watching TV, and

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Speaker 2: I remember telling you, Okay, what are We're going to

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Speaker 2: take a bath? Now? It's probably nine am. The phone rings,

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Speaker 2: the phones in the kitchen, and so I go to

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Speaker 2: the kitchen to talk to whoever it was. So I'm

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Speaker 2: in the kitchen talking on the phone. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if a minute went by or five or ten. But

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Speaker 2: when I hung up, our front door was a sliding

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Speaker 2: glass door and it was open, and you were gone.

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Speaker 2: So you weren't high this morning. No, this was early

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Speaker 2: in the morning. You were still in pajamas. I hadn't

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Speaker 2: got high yet. I would usually go to your dad's

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Speaker 2: house later on in the day and that's when I

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Speaker 2: would get high.

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Speaker 3: Did the family know about your addiction? Did Mamilichena No,

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Speaker 3: not yet.

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Speaker 2: Nobody knew. I had just started using, so I was

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Speaker 2: new into my addiction. I want to say that around

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Speaker 2: that time she started maybe getting suspicious that something was

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Speaker 2: going on.

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Speaker 1: So her story was just very believable to me because

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Speaker 1: it just checks out with the rest of your patterns

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Speaker 1: as a parent. So for me, it was very easy

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Speaker 1: to believe that this is what had happened, that because

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Speaker 1: of your neglect and your drug use, I got kidnapped

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Speaker 1: by some random person and like a junkie.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Let me just say this. It wasn't until she started

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Speaker 2: schooling you on what to look for, teaching you about

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Speaker 2: drug use, that's when you started changing with me.

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Speaker 3: MAMMI said, was always like, you have to be my

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Speaker 3: little spy.

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Speaker 1: From a very young age. She said, I had to

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Speaker 1: go through your stuff and report back to her.

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Speaker 2: And as much as Mammy Lcha wanted me to be

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Speaker 2: a part of my children, to be in their lives.

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Speaker 2: She taught them how to. I'm not gonna say hate me,

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Speaker 2: but they had no respect for me. They I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: I just why are you getting emotional? Because to this

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Speaker 2: day sometimes I feel that nothing has changed.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like to not feel respected.

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Speaker 2: I just feel like and I just started feeling this

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Speaker 2: as of lately. My mom did a really good job

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Speaker 2: of like still being in control after she's gone, you know,

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Speaker 2: and all my children are quick to judge me or

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Speaker 2: tell me how bad. You know, It's like, no matter

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Speaker 2: how hard I try, I'm still stuck in that place.

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Speaker 4: Couldn't be that.

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Speaker 1: So let me just clarify something. I don't feel that

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Speaker 1: way towards you. I don't feel that feeling of like

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Speaker 1: better than or any I.

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Speaker 2: Don't feel that I I oh my god, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to do this right now. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 4: Take your time, let it out. We're back.

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Speaker 1: We have to take a little break. But this is

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Speaker 1: a difficult episode to record because I understand where you're

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Speaker 1: coming from.

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Speaker 4: Mom.

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Speaker 1: How Ma Militia always had her way of like manipulating

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Speaker 1: us into acting a certain way with you, and how

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Speaker 1: that has carried over through the years. So I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: that you're going through this right now at this moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, don't be sorry. I mean, it's not your fault.

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Speaker 2: I guess I just feel like but like she's been

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Speaker 2: gone how long and she's still calling shots.

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Speaker 1: You know, all these years, like the thought of you

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Speaker 1: not being high never crossed my mind.

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Speaker 2: You were always suspicious of me, And again that's what

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Speaker 2: she taught you. You didn't just one day wake up

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Speaker 2: and say, I think my mom's using So I disappear

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Speaker 2: from the How what did you do? So I go

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Speaker 2: out there, Oh, I don't looking for you nothing. Our

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Speaker 2: apartments were connected to the parking lot, to the trolley station,

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Speaker 2: and then there was like an Arco gas station across

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Speaker 2: the street. I remember going to the Arco station. I

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Speaker 2: went and knocked on neighbors doors. I went to the

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Speaker 2: trolley station, and I'm looking for you like crazy everywhere,

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Speaker 2: and I can't find you. So now I'm scared.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: I called a militia and I told her what happened,

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Speaker 2: and I'm crying hysterically, and her and your grandpa Papaveto

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Speaker 2: showed up right away. And so your grandma walks in

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Speaker 2: and I'm sitting there crying, and she comes up to

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Speaker 2: me and slaps me, and then she says, what happened?

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Speaker 2: Real calm. First she slaps the shit out of me,

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Speaker 2: and then she says what happened? And she said, well,

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Speaker 2: have you called the police? And I said no. She said,

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Speaker 2: well what are you waiting for? Call the police. We're

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Speaker 2: going to go look for the baby. So they take off,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I'm sitting there. I have to stay

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Speaker 2: there because you might come back. Right.

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Speaker 3: So, I didn't know she slapped you when she showed up.

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Speaker 2: She sure did. She fucking slapped me. She had a

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Speaker 2: heavy hand, so it really hurt.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I remember, I mean, you lost her grandbaby, you

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Speaker 1: lost your little prince. But also fucked up that she

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Speaker 1: slapped you because she could be harsh to put into

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Speaker 1: nice words.

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Speaker 2: And so she and Papaweo go out looking for you

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Speaker 2: and I have to stay at home. I called the

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Speaker 2: police and then I was like stuck at home, just

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Speaker 2: going crazy. By now, it's already like probably three pm

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Speaker 2: had gone by, and I remember calling the police and

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Speaker 2: I asked, you have an update, you know, on my son. No,

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Speaker 2: they haven't found any little boys whatever. They actually found

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Speaker 2: the little girl. They're taking her to Polinsky. Now she's

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Speaker 2: the same age as your son, but no, we haven't

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Speaker 2: found him. And what is Polinski like child protective services

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Speaker 2: where they take children that the system takes away. And

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Speaker 2: I said, what does this little girl look like? And

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Speaker 2: they said hold on and they get back on the

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Speaker 2: phone and they're like, well, this little girl has long,

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Speaker 2: curly blonde hair and she's wearing blue pajamas. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: that's my son. That's my son.

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Speaker 1: So it's actually so funny and probably my favorite part

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Speaker 1: of the story that the police thought I was a

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Speaker 1: little girl. Yeah, because it's crazy to me that, even

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Speaker 1: from a young age, I had such a femine essence, right,

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Speaker 1: something I tried to cover up for years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I never thought of it that way. You're right,

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Speaker 2: So you picked me up and then did the police

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Speaker 2: say what happened? We had to go pick you up

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Speaker 2: at the Chila Vista police station and you were sitting

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Speaker 2: there like nothing, you know, just mommy, you ran up

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Speaker 2: to me and you know, all happy, and Mammy Leicha

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Speaker 2: and everybody. They found you at what was it, La

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Speaker 2: Placita and downtown San Diego, like from H Street to

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Speaker 2: downtown San Diego is a long way, very far.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's like ten fifteen miles I think.

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Speaker 2: And you were feeding the pigeons because there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of pigeons, or you know, you were feeding them I

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Speaker 2: think popcorn or something. But the police didn't know what

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Speaker 2: happened when I called back, they had no idea. They

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Speaker 2: never fail yeared it out.

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Speaker 1: So even you with calling the police back that doesn't

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Speaker 1: really feel with the story that I heard. But before

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Speaker 1: we get into over things with Mami Dechael, after this.

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Speaker 2: When I told her that I was moving out and

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Speaker 2: taking my baby boy with me, she was very upset.

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Speaker 2: So this was like the perfect opportunity for her to

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Speaker 2: tell me, you can't handle taking care of a baby.

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Speaker 2: Do whatever you want with your life, Suck it up.

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Speaker 2: You already have done a good job of destroying everything.

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Speaker 2: She was now focused on this little boy that she

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Speaker 2: was going to mold into which she wanted. So can

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Speaker 2: you see now how you have no business taking this

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Speaker 2: little boy and trying to raise them on your own

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Speaker 2: because you're never going to be good at it.

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Speaker 1: It seems very accurate something that she would say or do,

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Speaker 1: But also like you had to be so young, so

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Speaker 1: you really have like no defense because how old are you,

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Speaker 1: like seventeen.

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Speaker 2: I think I was still sixteen.

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Speaker 1: It's very possible, like somebody could have knocked on the door,

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Speaker 1: I open it and they just take me. That's possible.

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Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with you or Mamilicha.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well it was neglectful on my part. I know

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Speaker 2: that because I stayed on the phone. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if it was two minutes or five or ten. I

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Speaker 2: don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but mothers do that. That's very normal thing

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Speaker 1: for parents to do. Because you're in your house, you

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Speaker 1: feel secure, you feel safe. Do you think this story

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Speaker 1: the disappearance could have had something to do with Mamilita's business.

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Speaker 2: No. I was still very young, and I don't want

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Speaker 2: to say innocent. You know, I really believe that you

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Speaker 2: walked out and the trolley opened, you got on with

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Speaker 2: all these people. I never thought of it being anything

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Speaker 2: more than that, because you're right, it does happen. I

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Speaker 2: went from being a straight A student and playing with

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Speaker 2: dolls to having babies and sharing needles like really quick.

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Speaker 2: I got burned a lot at the beginning of my

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Speaker 2: drug use because I was still so naive. I never

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Speaker 2: even thought that somebody took you away or none of

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Speaker 2: that went through my mind. I was just scared shit

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Speaker 2: listed you were gone, and all I wanted was you

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Speaker 2: back safe.

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Speaker 1: It's more of a mystery than I thought. And Mymia

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Speaker 1: was always so quick to blame you for everything. It

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Speaker 1: just kind of made sense for me that that you

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Speaker 1: were igh. It's hard for me to deal with how

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Speaker 1: different my mom's version of this story is Frommilcha's, because

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Speaker 1: in my mom's telling, she recognized that she fucked up,

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Speaker 1: but not in the way I heard and believed for

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Speaker 1: so long. And if my mom is right, should I

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Speaker 1: trust her about the other stories too? I guess what

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Speaker 1: I'm realizing is that my instinct is to not trust her,

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Speaker 1: and that I was taught to think that way because

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Speaker 1: of how Mamilicha raised me. I was taught that Mamilichia

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Speaker 1: and I were the ones in control. My mom was

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Speaker 1: out of control. Mamilita was safe, my mom wasn't. In

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways, that was true, but not all

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Speaker 1: the time. If I've learned one thing about Mamilicha is

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Speaker 1: that she liked to be in control.

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Speaker 3: My mom made that hard. She was rebellious.

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Speaker 1: She challenged her a lot, and so after my mom

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Speaker 1: had me, Mamilichia had a chance. She couldn't control my mom,

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Speaker 1: you could control me. And it wasn't just our lives

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Speaker 1: she wanted to control. It was the narrative too. From

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Speaker 1: a young age, my Milichev planted to see that my

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Speaker 1: mom was not to be trusted. And some of that's valid, right,

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Speaker 1: but Mymiche was always quick to tell the story that

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Speaker 1: painted my mom in a certain light. She was trying

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Speaker 1: to undermine her to have full control, and that continued

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Speaker 1: for a while, basically until mimiche went to prison. Next

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Speaker 1: time on Crumbs, I.

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Speaker 2: Just had this perfect little visual in my head of

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Speaker 2: the perfect family we were going to be in Utah.

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Speaker 3: So weird. I don't remember any of this, but he

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Speaker 3: would change.

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Speaker 2: He was like a doctor Jackal and mister Hyde.

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Speaker 1: Hey, listeners, there's a lot of difficult subjects that we

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Speaker 1: cover in this show. If you are someone you know

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Speaker 1: needs help, you can reach the Substance Abuse and Mental

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Speaker 1: Health Services Administration Hotline at one eight hundred sixty six

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Speaker 1: 's two four three five seven. They'll connect you with

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Speaker 1: information and resources on treatment. There's also the National Suicide

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Speaker 1: Prevention Lifeline at one eight hundred two seven three T

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Speaker 1: A l K. Both are available twenty four to seven.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to be in crisis to reach out either.

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Speaker 1: They're available for anyone who needs help. Crumbs is a

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Speaker 1: Sonato production in partnership with Iheartsmichaels, Thura Network and Trojan Horse.

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Speaker 3: It's produced by.

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Speaker 1: Hannah Bottom and edited by Margaret Catcher, Rodrigo Crespo and

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Speaker 1: Alex Umero, with support from Elizabeth Schutzel. Original music by

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Speaker 1: D Peter Schmidt and engineering by Catosmgagna and Mandel Barra Studio,

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Speaker 1: Recording by JTV Recording and Podcasting Studio. Executive produced by

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Speaker 1: Cono Byrne and Giselan Says for iHeart, Alex Fumetro and

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Speaker 1: Margaret Catcher for Chrodren Horse, Camilla Victoriano and Joshua weinsteinfer

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Speaker 1: Sonoro and me Emmi OLEA special things to Marina Cornella

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Speaker 1: Gire and of course my mom Il de Gambois.

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Speaker 3: Listen to Crumbs on.

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Speaker 1: The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

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Speaker 1: podcasts and don't forget. You can also listen to our

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Speaker 1: show on Amazon Music