WEBVTT - Inside Facebook’s Decision to Ban Trump 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:23.876 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:23.916 --> 0:00:27.276 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:27.716 --> 0:00:33.356 I'm Noah Feldman. This week, former President Donald Trump's second 0:00:33.516 --> 0:00:37.556 impeachment trial is taking place in the Senate. At the 0:00:37.596 --> 0:00:41.556 core of the trial is Donald Trump's speech. What did 0:00:41.556 --> 0:00:45.636 the President say and when did he say it? From 0:00:45.676 --> 0:00:49.876 the standpoint of the House managers, donald Trump incited violence 0:00:50.196 --> 0:00:53.836 on January sixth when he gave the speech on the ellipse, 0:00:54.316 --> 0:00:58.276 encouraging his followers to march on the Capitol, which they 0:00:58.316 --> 0:01:02.396 then occupied. From the standpoint of Donald Trump's defense, there 0:01:02.476 --> 0:01:06.796 was no intimate connection, no causal connection, no connection at all, 0:01:06.836 --> 0:01:09.796 they say, between what the President had to say at 0:01:09.836 --> 0:01:13.996 the time and what the rioters did. But impeachment was 0:01:14.036 --> 0:01:16.796 not the only, and possibly not even the most serious 0:01:16.796 --> 0:01:20.156 consequence to Donald Trump of his speech on January six 0:01:20.876 --> 0:01:23.836 In the aftermath of the attack on the Capitol, Twitter 0:01:23.996 --> 0:01:31.356 suspended Donald Trump permanently and Facebook suspended Trump indefinitely. Those 0:01:31.396 --> 0:01:36.316 two suspensions effectively blocked Donald Trump from social media, which 0:01:36.356 --> 0:01:39.556 had been the oxygen for his campaign and the main 0:01:39.876 --> 0:01:42.956 method that he used to communicate to his public during 0:01:42.996 --> 0:01:47.436 his presidency. The consequences for the question of free expression 0:01:47.476 --> 0:01:51.956 and social media could not be greater, And indeed, after 0:01:52.036 --> 0:01:56.156 Joe Biden's inauguration, Facebook decided to refer the question of 0:01:56.156 --> 0:02:00.916 Trump's suspension to its newly created Facebook Oversight Board, a 0:02:00.996 --> 0:02:03.836 group of twenty plus experts from all over the world 0:02:03.996 --> 0:02:06.916 who are independent of Facebook and have the authority to 0:02:06.996 --> 0:02:10.396 decide whether its decisions can form with its stated values 0:02:10.676 --> 0:02:14.556 and with Facebook's rules. Right now, the question of trumps 0:02:14.516 --> 0:02:18.436 suspension is pending before the Oversight Board, and Facebook has 0:02:18.476 --> 0:02:21.956 pledged that it will follow the conclusion that the Oversight 0:02:22.036 --> 0:02:27.076 Board reaches. They raise profound and difficult questions about what 0:02:27.116 --> 0:02:30.076 speech should be permitted and what speech should be restrained. 0:02:30.636 --> 0:02:34.036 To discuss these pressing questions and the state of play 0:02:34.316 --> 0:02:38.356 in social media content governance more generally, I'm joined today 0:02:38.596 --> 0:02:42.836 by the Vice President of Content Policy at Facebook, Monica Bickert. 0:02:43.276 --> 0:02:46.956 Monica's job is to run all decisions about content policy 0:02:46.996 --> 0:02:50.676 at Facebook. She was intimately involved in the Trump process, 0:02:50.756 --> 0:02:53.796 the Trump decision, and the decision to pass along the 0:02:53.836 --> 0:02:57.916 Trump case to the Facebook Oversight Board. Before we start 0:02:57.956 --> 0:03:00.516 this conversation, I want to begin by telling my listeners 0:03:00.556 --> 0:03:03.236 that when it comes to the Facebook Oversight Board, I 0:03:03.276 --> 0:03:07.596 am the very opposite of a disinterested observer. I helped 0:03:07.636 --> 0:03:09.476 come up with the idea for the oversight board in 0:03:09.516 --> 0:03:12.276 the first place. I worked as it paid consultant to 0:03:12.316 --> 0:03:15.276 Facebook during the entire three year process of getting the 0:03:15.276 --> 0:03:19.196 board going, and I still advise Facebook now on questions 0:03:19.236 --> 0:03:23.036 of free expression. Indeed, that's how I met Monica during 0:03:23.076 --> 0:03:26.196 the process of working on the oversight board, and we 0:03:26.316 --> 0:03:29.396 became friends and subsequently taught a class together on social 0:03:29.396 --> 0:03:32.876 media and the law at Harvard Law School. With that 0:03:33.036 --> 0:03:36.476 relevant background in mind, I'm excited to turn into our 0:03:36.516 --> 0:03:44.356 conversation Monica. Welcome to deep background, Monica. Let's start with 0:03:44.396 --> 0:03:48.676 the biggest ticket issue in the universe of content moderation 0:03:49.196 --> 0:03:53.836 right upfront, which is the suspension of Donald Trump from 0:03:53.876 --> 0:03:58.636 your platform as well as from Twitter in the wake 0:03:58.716 --> 0:04:01.636 of the January sixth attacks on the Capitol. And I 0:04:01.636 --> 0:04:04.156 guess I just want to begin by asking you, what 0:04:04.276 --> 0:04:08.396 did your internal process look like, how you know in 0:04:08.436 --> 0:04:11.876 the whole complies ecosystem that you're in charge of of 0:04:11.956 --> 0:04:15.316 content policy at Facebook. Did you make your way towards 0:04:15.396 --> 0:04:21.236 this really historic decision. The first thing that happened was 0:04:21.996 --> 0:04:25.596 my attention was brought to a couple of posts by 0:04:26.276 --> 0:04:28.996 then President Trump. My team flagged for me, hey, a 0:04:29.076 --> 0:04:33.036 video has been posted by the President. We're reviewing it 0:04:33.036 --> 0:04:35.196 now to see if it violence any of our content policies, 0:04:35.196 --> 0:04:37.716 but it's something that you need to look at. One 0:04:37.836 --> 0:04:40.916 was a video and one was a text post, and 0:04:40.956 --> 0:04:45.196 they happened during the attack on the Capitol. We saw 0:04:45.196 --> 0:04:48.636 in the president's video that he said I love you 0:04:48.676 --> 0:04:51.596 all and thank you or words to that effect, which 0:04:51.916 --> 0:04:55.196 to us constituted praise. So that was a violation of 0:04:55.196 --> 0:04:59.156 our policies. And then shortly thereafter there was a text 0:04:59.156 --> 0:05:02.116 post that had some of the same language. It called 0:05:02.156 --> 0:05:06.396 those who had reached the Capitol great patriots. So they 0:05:06.436 --> 0:05:10.036 flagged that video. I reviewed it along with some of 0:05:10.036 --> 0:05:16.636 my colleagues, and what we saw was what arose to 0:05:16.916 --> 0:05:22.476 a violation of our policy against celebrations of violence. And 0:05:22.596 --> 0:05:27.076 this is a policy that you may have heard about before, 0:05:27.156 --> 0:05:29.396 in the context of us saying we don't allow anybody 0:05:29.436 --> 0:05:32.876 to praise terror acts or acts of violence. And you 0:05:32.876 --> 0:05:35.956 can think of that as if somebody, if there's a 0:05:35.996 --> 0:05:39.156 bombing somewhere and somebody says, oh, I'm glad that bombing happened. 0:05:39.436 --> 0:05:41.796 We would remove that as praise of a terror act, 0:05:42.236 --> 0:05:44.796 but we removed any praise of violent acts where a 0:05:44.836 --> 0:05:47.676 person is likely to be injured. And here the capital 0:05:47.716 --> 0:05:51.676 attack we knew was a violent act. And this was 0:05:51.716 --> 0:05:54.076 sort of a normal part of our process throughout the 0:05:54.156 --> 0:05:55.596 run up to the election and then the run up 0:05:55.596 --> 0:05:59.876 to the inauguration was having a twenty four hour operation 0:06:00.036 --> 0:06:03.796 center where we were flagging and looking at content that 0:06:03.876 --> 0:06:07.436 potentially violated our policies. And of course that included from 0:06:08.356 --> 0:06:11.436 anyone one of the billions of people using our services, 0:06:11.436 --> 0:06:13.356 but it also did include looking at content that was 0:06:13.396 --> 0:06:17.036 posted by high profile accounts, including the president's account. So, Monica, 0:06:17.076 --> 0:06:19.996 I want to ask first a question about that twenty 0:06:19.996 --> 0:06:22.836 four hour operations center and how they were functioning in 0:06:22.836 --> 0:06:25.956 this instance. How was that working? It was it literally 0:06:25.956 --> 0:06:28.116 that there's someone there in the op center looking to 0:06:28.116 --> 0:06:31.116 see what their president would do next. Well, there's always 0:06:31.236 --> 0:06:33.916 three ways that content can get flagged for our attention, 0:06:33.956 --> 0:06:37.156 and one is a user report. Two is, as you mentioned, 0:06:37.156 --> 0:06:41.716 we use technology to try to identify likely violations, and 0:06:41.916 --> 0:06:45.796 three is we work with partners outside the company, and 0:06:45.836 --> 0:06:48.116 that could include depending on where you are in the world, 0:06:48.556 --> 0:06:52.156 safety groups or media groups that might want to flag 0:06:52.196 --> 0:06:54.876 something for us. And when it came to the US election, 0:06:55.076 --> 0:06:58.476 we were working with a number of partners, including elections 0:06:58.516 --> 0:07:03.196 officials and safety groups, voters rights groups, etc. And then 0:07:03.236 --> 0:07:06.076 we also had our teams who were looking at high 0:07:06.116 --> 0:07:10.036 profile accounts, not just because content that violates our policies 0:07:10.036 --> 0:07:11.916 from those accounts would be really important to be on 0:07:11.956 --> 0:07:15.756 top of, but also because sometimes you'll see people who 0:07:15.796 --> 0:07:20.356 have high profile accounts being the subject of attempted hacks 0:07:20.636 --> 0:07:23.596 or attempted abuse in comments, and so those are things 0:07:23.636 --> 0:07:27.196 that our teams do watch. So let me turn now 0:07:27.316 --> 0:07:33.036 to the remarkable observation that you first reacted to the 0:07:33.036 --> 0:07:36.716 Trump post because they were celebrating violence. That's a tiny 0:07:36.756 --> 0:07:39.836 bit different from what the House of Representatives alleged in 0:07:39.916 --> 0:07:41.916 its article of impeachment against Trump, not that he was 0:07:41.916 --> 0:07:45.596 celebrating violence, but that he incited violence. And the difference, 0:07:45.636 --> 0:07:47.356 I guess, is that celebration has when something of violence 0:07:47.356 --> 0:07:50.036 has already happened. You're celebrating the fact that violent thing 0:07:50.116 --> 0:07:53.356 is happening, whereas incitement is the thing of violence hasn't 0:07:53.356 --> 0:07:56.356 happened yet. And you're doing something that is encouraging it 0:07:56.396 --> 0:07:59.116 to come about, and that involves a lot of prediction 0:07:59.476 --> 0:08:01.956 on the part of whoever's judging that, in this instance 0:08:01.996 --> 0:08:04.836 by the House and then eventually by the Senate. So 0:08:05.676 --> 0:08:07.876 do you see those things as in some way distinct 0:08:07.996 --> 0:08:09.796 or was it just the case that when Trump gave 0:08:09.796 --> 0:08:13.996 his initial speech to the rally on January sixth, that 0:08:13.996 --> 0:08:16.716 that didn't ring any immediate bells because no violence had 0:08:16.716 --> 0:08:19.476 happened yet. Because if so, that's kind of interesting really 0:08:19.556 --> 0:08:22.636 for the question of impeachment, right, if it didn't look 0:08:22.636 --> 0:08:24.836 like incitement when he said it, and you were all 0:08:24.876 --> 0:08:26.916 sitting there in your twenty four operam looking at it, 0:08:27.156 --> 0:08:29.036 that's sort of not a terrible defense for Trump to 0:08:29.116 --> 0:08:32.196 raise when he says I didn't incite any violence. Not 0:08:32.236 --> 0:08:33.836 a defense to raise with you, but a defense for 0:08:33.876 --> 0:08:37.196 Trump to raise in his impeachment trial. Well, one of 0:08:37.236 --> 0:08:39.836 the things that I would emphasize is with our celebration 0:08:39.876 --> 0:08:44.916 of violence policy that is ultimately about preventing further violence. So, 0:08:45.036 --> 0:08:47.436 for instance, I mentioned earlier, if somebody says, oh, I'm 0:08:47.436 --> 0:08:50.196 glad that bomb went off in that city and killed 0:08:50.196 --> 0:08:52.836 all those people, the reason we remove that is not 0:08:52.876 --> 0:08:56.276 because it's distasteful, though it certainly is. It's because we 0:08:56.356 --> 0:09:01.236 think that people praising and celebrating violent acts glorifies that 0:09:01.356 --> 0:09:04.076 and can lead to further violence. So, whether or not 0:09:04.116 --> 0:09:08.236 you want to call that additional incitement or call it, 0:09:08.276 --> 0:09:10.156 as we do in our pulse, the celebration of violence, 0:09:10.196 --> 0:09:11.956 I think the point is the same, which is, we 0:09:11.996 --> 0:09:14.876 thought there was a risk of additional violence, and we 0:09:14.916 --> 0:09:18.356 thought the president's remarks contributed to that. But is it, 0:09:18.396 --> 0:09:22.596 in fact the case that your own decision to definitely 0:09:23.356 --> 0:09:27.316 suspend President Trump from the platform was driven not by 0:09:27.396 --> 0:09:31.236 the theory that his speech to the crowd on January 0:09:31.316 --> 0:09:34.916 sixth led to the violence, but rather on the basis 0:09:34.916 --> 0:09:38.716 of comments he made after that violence had already begun. Yes, 0:09:39.036 --> 0:09:44.156 that's it is right. What we removed was commentary after 0:09:44.196 --> 0:09:46.596 the violence had begun. It was a video in a 0:09:46.636 --> 0:09:48.996 text post. But the reason that we had that celebration 0:09:49.036 --> 0:09:51.836 of violence policy is because we think that kind of 0:09:51.836 --> 0:09:56.236 commentary can indeed stoke further violence. And in fact, here 0:09:56.396 --> 0:10:00.956 not only did we remove the content, but we extended 0:10:01.356 --> 0:10:03.916 the twenty four hour band that was called for by 0:10:03.916 --> 0:10:07.636 our policies. We extended that indefinitely because we thought the 0:10:07.756 --> 0:10:12.156 risk of violence on the ground was still very present 0:10:12.196 --> 0:10:15.796 and likely would be throughout the transition to power. That's 0:10:15.796 --> 0:10:19.356 really interesting too, the indefinite band through the as it were, 0:10:19.436 --> 0:10:24.876 transition until Joe Biden was eventually sworn into office, at 0:10:24.876 --> 0:10:27.476 which point will come to this later. Facebook turned this 0:10:27.516 --> 0:10:30.876 issue over to its oversight board. Was that then, because 0:10:30.916 --> 0:10:33.236 you were worried about violence, or you were worried that 0:10:33.956 --> 0:10:38.316 somehow the transition itself was in jeopardy through democracy itself 0:10:38.356 --> 0:10:41.516 being in danger, or those basically the same thing. For us, 0:10:41.556 --> 0:10:45.156 it's about the risk of violence. What we're looking at 0:10:45.276 --> 0:10:48.956 is through the lens of our values around allowing speech 0:10:49.516 --> 0:10:52.716 but also promoting safety and removing what we think could 0:10:52.796 --> 0:10:56.756 reasonably contribute to a risk of physical harm to somebody. 0:10:57.156 --> 0:11:00.476 And here we had actual physical harm happening on the grounds. 0:11:00.556 --> 0:11:02.956 We thought there was a continued risk of that, and 0:11:03.076 --> 0:11:06.236 we did not want the president at that time, who 0:11:06.276 --> 0:11:10.996 had a high number of followers, a really big microphone, 0:11:11.316 --> 0:11:15.236 and a pattern of celebrating violence, to be able to 0:11:15.276 --> 0:11:20.836 further stoke violence. The question that a lot of critics 0:11:20.876 --> 0:11:25.076 of Facebook inevitably are asking, once you did do it 0:11:25.196 --> 0:11:29.396 is why not sooner? Right? You say the president was 0:11:29.436 --> 0:11:34.276 glorifying violence, Well, what was it when after the Charlottesville violence, 0:11:34.316 --> 0:11:37.436 which included a death, the president said there were fine 0:11:37.476 --> 0:11:40.356 people on both sides. You know, why wasn't that a 0:11:40.356 --> 0:11:44.236 celebration of violence? Why were in other comments the Trump 0:11:44.276 --> 0:11:48.396 has made over the course of his presidency comparably violations 0:11:48.436 --> 0:11:51.596 of policy, such that only now, when there was intact 0:11:51.636 --> 0:11:54.716 on the Capitol was he actually dep platformed. Well, first, 0:11:54.996 --> 0:11:57.116 I would say this isn't the first time we removed 0:11:57.156 --> 0:12:00.836 content from the president. Any time that we have a 0:12:00.956 --> 0:12:03.996 controversial posts by any world leader, and this has happened 0:12:03.996 --> 0:12:07.196 a number of times, including with President Trump and other 0:12:07.276 --> 0:12:10.516 high profile leaders in the United States, anytime we have 0:12:10.796 --> 0:12:13.036 a post that is close to the line, we have 0:12:13.156 --> 0:12:15.156 to look at what the most natural reading of that 0:12:15.236 --> 0:12:17.876 post is. When you look at that video and he's 0:12:17.916 --> 0:12:22.716 saying I love you and thank you, one could argue 0:12:23.116 --> 0:12:26.556 that he was addressing the protesters generally and not those 0:12:26.596 --> 0:12:29.356 who had breached the capitol. We thought the most natural 0:12:29.396 --> 0:12:32.676 reading since he was also saying, okay, go home peacefully, 0:12:33.276 --> 0:12:35.236 we thought the most natural reading was that he was 0:12:35.276 --> 0:12:39.676 referring to those who had engaged in the violence that 0:12:39.716 --> 0:12:42.196 gets you to the taking down of the specific content. 0:12:43.116 --> 0:12:46.836 But this decision was different because this was an indefinite suspension, 0:12:47.436 --> 0:12:49.956 what at least colloquially one would call a deep platforming, 0:12:49.996 --> 0:12:52.436 which is a bigger deal than taking down content that 0:12:52.476 --> 0:12:56.516 occurred in the past. Was there a specific rule that 0:12:56.996 --> 0:13:00.676 you could point to that merited the deep platforming, the 0:13:01.156 --> 0:13:05.916 indefinite suspension rather than the taking down of the content. Yes. 0:13:06.116 --> 0:13:10.196 So basically, the first time that somebody elates one of 0:13:10.196 --> 0:13:12.956 our policies, unless it's a really severe policy. For instance, 0:13:12.956 --> 0:13:16.156 if somebody posts a child sexual abuse material, then we 0:13:16.156 --> 0:13:20.156 would immediately take down the account. But for violations that 0:13:20.276 --> 0:13:23.556 fall into a general category such as a bullying violation 0:13:24.116 --> 0:13:26.836 or a celebration of violence violation, the first time is 0:13:26.916 --> 0:13:30.276 usually just a warning, But if there is a second 0:13:30.356 --> 0:13:35.396 violation within a period of time, then the consequence is 0:13:35.516 --> 0:13:39.956 generally a twenty four hour ban on that person posting 0:13:40.036 --> 0:13:42.476 on our services. So your account is still there, you 0:13:42.516 --> 0:13:46.316 just can't post anything. And if you recall that day, 0:13:46.396 --> 0:13:48.756 we came out and we said we've removed the president's 0:13:48.796 --> 0:13:51.916 content and he is banned from posting on our services 0:13:51.916 --> 0:13:53.836 for twenty four hours, So that was just a straight 0:13:53.876 --> 0:13:56.396 application of the policy. But what we then did the 0:13:56.436 --> 0:14:00.596 next day, we say, we're going to suspend that privilege 0:14:00.596 --> 0:14:06.796 to post indefinitely because of the fear of further violence, 0:14:07.316 --> 0:14:11.876 and that we at least have that in place through 0:14:11.876 --> 0:14:16.076 the transition of power. So that part that extension from 0:14:16.076 --> 0:14:18.316 twenty four hours with the indefinite suspension was based on 0:14:18.356 --> 0:14:22.156 circumstances on the ground and not just routine application of 0:14:22.196 --> 0:14:25.476 our policies. I will say, of course, that the consequences, 0:14:26.356 --> 0:14:28.316 you know, do we take down somebody's account for this 0:14:28.356 --> 0:14:30.836 certain number of strikes or do we ban them those 0:14:30.876 --> 0:14:35.836 Sometimes we do exercise some judgment. We'll look at somebody's account, 0:14:35.876 --> 0:14:38.476 for instance, and say, well, in this case, we think 0:14:38.476 --> 0:14:40.996 this post was very borderline, and this person didn't get 0:14:41.156 --> 0:14:45.476 at notice of his or her violation until we're actually 0:14:45.476 --> 0:14:47.076 not going to remove the page. We'll give them a 0:14:47.076 --> 0:14:50.716 final warning. That sort of thing is fairly routine. Here 0:14:51.236 --> 0:14:53.276 it went in the other direction. We said, we think 0:14:53.316 --> 0:14:57.476 we need to extend the ban at least through the 0:14:57.516 --> 0:15:01.916 transition of power and indefinitely after that. What would you 0:15:01.916 --> 0:15:04.716 say to a skeptic who said, Okay, I accept that 0:15:04.756 --> 0:15:08.276 you have to exercise judgment. But why is it that 0:15:08.396 --> 0:15:12.476 through the entire of Donald Trump's presidency that judgment did 0:15:12.476 --> 0:15:18.476 not involve his being suspended? And then after Congress stayed 0:15:18.556 --> 0:15:21.436 up all night and voted that he was not ultimately 0:15:21.516 --> 0:15:23.556 that the election was over and that he had lost, 0:15:24.356 --> 0:15:28.356 then suddenly the exerciser judgment went against Trump. You know, 0:15:28.396 --> 0:15:30.316 when he was he posed less of a threat to 0:15:31.516 --> 0:15:34.196 the company. Well, like I said, we had removed content 0:15:34.356 --> 0:15:37.596 from the President's account before he had not hit the 0:15:37.636 --> 0:15:41.556 threshold that would trigger the twenty four hour ban. So 0:15:42.636 --> 0:15:44.996 that's just the application of our policies. I will say 0:15:44.996 --> 0:15:48.076 that one of the questions we've gotten in the wake 0:15:48.156 --> 0:15:51.476 of this decision is what about other world leaders? What 0:15:51.636 --> 0:15:56.236 about world leaders who are seen as by the international community, 0:15:56.276 --> 0:15:58.556 of the human rights community, has real bad guys, and 0:15:58.636 --> 0:16:01.076 why don't you remove them from your service? And what 0:16:01.156 --> 0:16:04.076 I can say there is, again, we remove content when 0:16:04.076 --> 0:16:06.916 it violates our policies. We have removed content from other 0:16:06.916 --> 0:16:11.316 world leaders, and that includes praise of violence. It also 0:16:11.396 --> 0:16:16.636 includes sharing misinformation about COVID nineteen. So we do remove 0:16:16.676 --> 0:16:19.876 that content, but we only impose those additional consequences when 0:16:19.916 --> 0:16:23.036 it's called for under our policies. You mentioned the other 0:16:23.116 --> 0:16:26.276 world leaders. This goes to one of the principles that's 0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:29.916 in your statement of values, and the first of them 0:16:30.156 --> 0:16:34.396 does acknowledge that sometimes because there's a preference that you 0:16:34.476 --> 0:16:38.756 have for freedom of expression, especially on political topics, that 0:16:38.916 --> 0:16:43.476 sometimes elected officials will say or do things that would 0:16:43.516 --> 0:16:46.756 otherwise violate your policies and you don't take them down 0:16:46.836 --> 0:16:50.716 because you think that those things serve positive news value. 0:16:51.236 --> 0:16:53.316 How does that interact with the fact that somebody is 0:16:53.356 --> 0:16:55.796 a world leader, I mean, is that basically a reason 0:16:55.876 --> 0:16:59.996 to be more permissive with respect to statements by world 0:17:00.076 --> 0:17:02.916 leaders with the policy The news wordiness policy is a 0:17:02.916 --> 0:17:06.116 little bit different than that, and actually rarely do we 0:17:06.276 --> 0:17:10.556 use it with world leaders or politicians. Basically, in our 0:17:10.556 --> 0:17:14.756 community standards, we say here's what's prohibited, and then we say, 0:17:15.196 --> 0:17:18.476 if something if we think the value for the public 0:17:18.556 --> 0:17:23.916 in seeing something outweighs the safety risk because of the 0:17:23.996 --> 0:17:26.316 item's newsworthiness, then we may leave it up even if 0:17:26.356 --> 0:17:30.116 it violates our policies. And we do apply that newsworthiness 0:17:30.156 --> 0:17:36.036 policy regularly, I think probably most often in the context of, 0:17:36.116 --> 0:17:39.796 say there's a nude art exhibit or there's an image 0:17:39.796 --> 0:17:44.116 of graphic violence in the context of somebody raising awareness 0:17:44.156 --> 0:17:47.636 about a war, and it shows a nude child or 0:17:47.676 --> 0:17:50.196 something like that, where we would say this is newsworthy, 0:17:50.276 --> 0:17:52.196 so we're going to leave it up. We think that 0:17:52.116 --> 0:17:56.116 the risk of safety is far outweighed by the value 0:17:56.116 --> 0:17:59.956 of people seeing this content. In a small handful of cases, 0:18:00.476 --> 0:18:04.476 we have used that policy to leave up content posted 0:18:04.476 --> 0:18:08.276 by world leaders or politicians, but that's fairly rare. But 0:18:08.396 --> 0:18:11.556 generally it would it would include something where we think 0:18:11.596 --> 0:18:14.676 there's no real safety risk, and we think that people 0:18:14.676 --> 0:18:16.956 should be able to see that this politician engaged in 0:18:17.036 --> 0:18:20.916 this speech which is likely distasteful or there's probably something 0:18:20.956 --> 0:18:24.596 about it that's problematic but not unsafe. I want to 0:18:24.596 --> 0:18:28.876 turn out to the Oversight Board, which I helped advise 0:18:28.916 --> 0:18:30.836 on and you helped construct and build. And in fact 0:18:30.876 --> 0:18:33.396 that's how we met when I came out to Menlo 0:18:33.436 --> 0:18:36.116 Park back when people still traveled places at the very 0:18:36.196 --> 0:18:39.836 very early stages to think and talk about potential oversight 0:18:39.876 --> 0:18:43.316 Board directions. And sure enough, the baby's all grown up. 0:18:43.716 --> 0:18:46.676 And I mean, so far the Oversight Board has decided 0:18:46.716 --> 0:18:49.556 I guess six and a half cases, yeah, five and 0:18:49.556 --> 0:18:52.036 a half cases, five and a half cases, none of 0:18:52.076 --> 0:18:55.276 them on the scale of this decision. This is a 0:18:55.356 --> 0:18:59.116 huge decision, huge for the company, huge for the Oversight Board. 0:18:59.436 --> 0:19:02.636 Possibly not insignificant for politics in the United States, given 0:19:02.676 --> 0:19:05.356 that more than seventy million people voted for Donald Trump 0:19:05.356 --> 0:19:07.876 and lots of Republicans seem to believe that he still 0:19:07.876 --> 0:19:10.436 has a big influence within his party. So I guess 0:19:10.436 --> 0:19:12.196 the first question I have is do you think they're 0:19:12.196 --> 0:19:14.996 ready for it? I do. I do think they are, 0:19:15.076 --> 0:19:17.916 and I think the decisions they just put out so 0:19:18.476 --> 0:19:21.476 basically as you know, but people listening may not know. 0:19:21.756 --> 0:19:25.716 The Oversight Board was constructed to be an independent check 0:19:26.236 --> 0:19:29.236 on the decisions that my team is making, that Facebook 0:19:29.316 --> 0:19:33.796 is making on removing people's content. And when they issued 0:19:33.836 --> 0:19:36.556 their most recent decisions, their first decisions the slight of 0:19:37.556 --> 0:19:39.916 there are five opinions that they put out and then 0:19:39.956 --> 0:19:42.516 there was there was one decision they couldn't make because 0:19:42.516 --> 0:19:44.756 the post was actually removed by the person who had 0:19:44.796 --> 0:19:49.036 posted it. But in their five decisions, they really explained 0:19:49.076 --> 0:19:54.676 their thinking. They demonstrated real seriousness and sophistication, and I 0:19:55.036 --> 0:19:58.596 think I'm really excited about how they approached these first 0:19:58.636 --> 0:20:03.076 cases and the potential for them to decide really important 0:20:03.076 --> 0:20:08.036 cases in the future, starting with the decision to indefinitely 0:20:08.076 --> 0:20:12.156 suspended remove content from President Trump's account. In most of 0:20:12.196 --> 0:20:15.276 the cases that they heard this first trash, the oversight 0:20:15.316 --> 0:20:19.636 Board flipped the decision that Facebook had made. How are 0:20:19.636 --> 0:20:22.236 you going to feel if they flip you on this 0:20:22.276 --> 0:20:25.876 one too? Well, we referred it to them because we 0:20:25.956 --> 0:20:29.036 think they should get to make this decision. So you know, 0:20:29.076 --> 0:20:31.196 we're we're looking forward to that. And I will say 0:20:31.236 --> 0:20:34.116 the criteria for for us. So the way the way 0:20:34.156 --> 0:20:38.396 the board can get a case a user could appeal 0:20:38.476 --> 0:20:41.396 to them be Facebook could say, boy, this is really 0:20:41.396 --> 0:20:45.356 hard and really significant, and we think that somebody else 0:20:45.356 --> 0:20:47.876 should be making this decision. And in this case, we 0:20:47.996 --> 0:20:52.516 decided to refer this to the oversight Board. The Trump decision. 0:20:52.716 --> 0:20:56.876 The criteria we use are is it a significant decision? 0:20:57.236 --> 0:21:00.116 It clearly is? And is it a difficult decision? And 0:21:00.196 --> 0:21:02.676 here the fact that we have had people, some people 0:21:02.716 --> 0:21:05.116 saying why wasn't a permanent band, why didn't you do 0:21:05.156 --> 0:21:07.316 it sooner? And we've had other people saying, I can't 0:21:07.316 --> 0:21:11.596 believe Facebook would remove a sitting president's ability to post 0:21:12.196 --> 0:21:14.476 really shows how difficult this is. So I think they 0:21:14.476 --> 0:21:17.076 are the right group to decide it. And we didn't 0:21:17.116 --> 0:21:20.396 just ask them tell us whether or not we were 0:21:20.476 --> 0:21:24.156 right to remove this particular video and impose this indefinite suspension. 0:21:24.236 --> 0:21:28.836 We said, tell us how we should think about removing 0:21:28.916 --> 0:21:33.316 content from or in definitely suspending. World leaders are those 0:21:33.636 --> 0:21:36.796 in positions of power in countries around the world, so 0:21:36.836 --> 0:21:40.636 this is something that really does have a global implication. 0:21:41.436 --> 0:21:53.676 We'll be back in a moment. One of the things 0:21:53.716 --> 0:21:56.996 that's in process right now is that Donald Trump is 0:21:57.436 --> 0:22:00.996 being tried for impeachment in front of the US Senate, 0:22:01.676 --> 0:22:05.956 and counting noses, it seems much more probable than not 0:22:06.476 --> 0:22:09.556 that he will not be convicted by the Senate, and 0:22:10.036 --> 0:22:12.996 according to a norm that is in place, despite the 0:22:12.996 --> 0:22:15.076 fact that I don't like it very much, when a 0:22:15.156 --> 0:22:17.556 present is not convicted by the Senate because there's no 0:22:17.556 --> 0:22:20.356 two thirds vote to convict him, that president usually says 0:22:20.356 --> 0:22:22.356 I was acquitted by the Senate. I'm not sure I 0:22:22.356 --> 0:22:24.276 love the word acquitted in that context, because it's nothing 0:22:24.316 --> 0:22:26.356 like acquittal in front of your jury, as you know 0:22:26.396 --> 0:22:29.596 as a former prosecutor. But the president is likely to 0:22:29.676 --> 0:22:32.196 say if the Senate doesn't convit him, I was acquitted, 0:22:32.876 --> 0:22:35.476 and whether it's too late for him to say it 0:22:35.516 --> 0:22:37.956 to the Oversight Board or not in public, I would 0:22:37.956 --> 0:22:41.756 think that Trump or his supporters are likely to say, listen, Facebook, 0:22:42.116 --> 0:22:43.916 who were you to second guess the Senate of the 0:22:43.996 --> 0:22:47.116 United States? You know, the impeachment if a present is 0:22:47.156 --> 0:22:49.356 it bit like an indictment, then he gets a trial. 0:22:49.756 --> 0:22:53.156 I was tried, I was acquitted. I'm not guilty of incitement, 0:22:54.276 --> 0:22:57.476 and therefore you should reinstate me. At least, That's what 0:22:57.476 --> 0:22:59.476 I would say if I were supporting Donald Trump in 0:22:59.556 --> 0:23:03.516 this in this effort, should the Oversight Board care about that? 0:23:03.636 --> 0:23:06.676 Should it matter at all that there's been a public 0:23:06.836 --> 0:23:10.236 political process prescribed by the Constitution, and if at the 0:23:10.316 --> 0:23:13.036 end of that process it turns out the Trump is 0:23:13.156 --> 0:23:17.956 not removed, does that matter? I think it's really for 0:23:18.036 --> 0:23:19.836 the Oversight Board. I mean, that's why we have them. 0:23:19.876 --> 0:23:23.076 So I actually won't won't give an opinion on that 0:23:23.196 --> 0:23:25.756 because you know how to unduly influence them, or because 0:23:25.756 --> 0:23:27.276 it's not because you don't want to take a stand 0:23:27.276 --> 0:23:29.156 on it. Well, I just don't think. I don't think 0:23:29.156 --> 0:23:31.276 it's really my role. I think the reason we have 0:23:31.396 --> 0:23:33.516 them is because we think they should be able to 0:23:33.556 --> 0:23:37.316 make that sort of decision. Monica, tell me about how, 0:23:37.516 --> 0:23:39.356 maybe a little soon to say this, but how does 0:23:39.476 --> 0:23:42.476 your job and the job of your whole team that 0:23:42.556 --> 0:23:47.116 work on content policy change in a world where there's 0:23:47.156 --> 0:23:51.316