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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha, and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I never told you a production of by Heart Radio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome to the final part of our kind of

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Speaker 2: surprise rerun of the Last of Us.

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Speaker 1: But I guess it's fitting.

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Speaker 2: The second season of the show is coming out before

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Speaker 2: March of twenty twenty five as far as I know,

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Speaker 2: so we're getting prepared.

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Speaker 1: I guess this episode was.

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Speaker 2: The episode of the show was short, but the conversation

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Speaker 2: was long, because this is the thing people like to

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Speaker 2: fight about, is the ending, or just have conversations about.

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Speaker 2: It's not necessarily fighting, but I still I promise once

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Speaker 2: a day I get some article that pops up like

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Speaker 2: what Joel did well the morality. So there's a lot

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Speaker 2: to unpack with this one. I will say one thing

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Speaker 2: I wish I had phrased better, like immediately after we

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Speaker 2: did this episode, I wish i'd phrased it better, is

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Speaker 2: that I don't I'd find the argument that scientifically the

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Speaker 2: vaccine wouldn't work this way not a good faith argument

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Speaker 2: because it's implied that it would even if like in

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Speaker 2: the real world, maybe it wouldn't.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's a good.

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Speaker 2: But in the episode, what I also, I said, because

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Speaker 2: then what are you saying, are you applying that to

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Speaker 2: how the zombies would work, how the infected would work,

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Speaker 2: because I don't think it would work like that. That

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Speaker 2: being said, I also said in the first episode of

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Speaker 2: this series, the courtships is the real thing, and that

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Speaker 2: it can and nature has been shown to do things

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Speaker 2: that are frightening to us humans that appears zombie like,

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Speaker 2: especially I mean only in animals. And I saw a

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Speaker 2: creepy one about There's been a lot of creepy mushroom

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Speaker 2: studies coming out recently. So I'm not saying that part

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Speaker 2: couldn't happen. I'm saying I.

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Speaker 1: Don't think like the Bloater would.

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Speaker 2: I don't think like scientifically you're applying things and consistently.

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Speaker 3: How serious you're taking this conversation and the like In

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Speaker 3: the backtracking.

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Speaker 2: Listen Samantha one, I don't want one one year, somebody

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Speaker 2: in a desolate wasteland listening to the podcast like.

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Speaker 1: She what a fool? Exactly what I mean. I could

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Speaker 1: be wrong. Maybe the Bloater that is what's gonna happen.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I as you know, I do.

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Speaker 2: I write essays I feel like I have to justify

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Speaker 2: every opinion that I have, and people who like to

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Speaker 2: argue with me about the Last of Us and Star

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Speaker 2: Wars by the way, I've got to come up with

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Speaker 2: like every well every angle, I've got to explain.

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Speaker 3: Well my arguments always, well, you're a dummy, and I'll

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Speaker 3: walk home. It works for me.

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Speaker 2: The difference between you and I probably get more rest

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Speaker 2: than I do. Me lying away thinking about this podcast

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Speaker 2: I recorded a year ago, Like, oh, no, I.

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Speaker 3: Knew about like specific things when it comes to like

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Speaker 3: opinions and such of like social construct and like whether

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Speaker 3: I was offensive.

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Speaker 1: In any ways.

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Speaker 3: So my line of anxiety rather than but did I

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Speaker 3: get this fictional ideal that could be scientifically done? Did

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Speaker 3: I get that incorrect in my analysis of how this

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Speaker 3: creation could have been created in the first place?

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me okay, a couple of points. Well, and

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Speaker 1: I also worry about that stuff. It's not that I

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Speaker 1: know that that's true.

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Speaker 2: But two is an argument that came out immediately after this,

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Speaker 2: Like so many people tell me, well, even if they

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Speaker 2: had made a vaccine, they wouldn't have been able to

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Speaker 2: get it out because they have no way to transport things.

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Speaker 1: Get out of.

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Speaker 2: Here with that argument, that is ridiculous. Are you saying

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Speaker 2: that even if it saves just a few They even

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Speaker 2: say in the episode like that they wouldn't find a

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Speaker 2: way if they could build up an immunity and it

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Speaker 2: might take a while. Oh sorry, I bet that someone's

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Speaker 2: gonna write in about this and like.

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Speaker 3: Well, actually, well if they will, Actually that's about right.

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Speaker 1: I get it.

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Speaker 2: But it's also like, at a certain point even I

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Speaker 2: have to step back and say, like, how seriously are

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Speaker 2: we going to take this infective zombie virus.

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Speaker 1: And the distribution of.

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Speaker 2: The vaccines and we don't even know what's going on

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Speaker 2: in most of the world.

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Speaker 3: I mean to be there, the COVID stuff told us

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Speaker 3: pretty quickly that we're probably doomed.

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Speaker 1: It was true.

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Speaker 2: Well then you're taking a fatalistic let's just burn it down.

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Speaker 1: No, well that's a different that's.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, real realistic about this conversation exactly. See there.

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Speaker 1: See this is why this episode is so long. Even

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Speaker 1: though the episode of the show is forty I think

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Speaker 1: less than forty minutes, it was like forty minutes. That's amazing.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, if anyone I offended anyone with my strong beliefs

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Speaker 2: about vaccine distribution and the last.

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Speaker 3: Of Us for the world.

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Speaker 1: Anyway.

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Speaker 2: Actually, please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie

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Speaker 2: and Samantha and welcome to Stephan Never told you Protection

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. And here we come to the end of

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Speaker 2: our season one. I'm gonna say I'm already gonna say it,

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Speaker 2: of our last of US mini series.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back. Oh yes, yo, I'm so excited.

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Speaker 2: All right, this one is the big one, the big boy,

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Speaker 2: as my friend Katie describes the Bloaters. Because today we

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Speaker 2: are talking about the finale, I have a.

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Speaker 1: Lot to say.

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Speaker 2: I've been agonizing over it. Oh my, it's gonna be

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Speaker 2: all over the place, but it's going to be fun.

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Speaker 3: And this outline has been prepared since day one.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I think I might have even done it

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Speaker 2: before i'd seen one episode. I think I already had this.

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Speaker 3: I don't think you did, because we didn't know for

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Speaker 3: sure we were going to do this until episode one.

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Speaker 2: That is true, And I am going to talk about

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Speaker 2: some of the stuff I alluded to in that episode

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Speaker 2: before I knew we were going to do this.

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Speaker 1: But I think sometimes I just.

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Speaker 2: Make outlines with the hope that one day I'll get

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Speaker 2: to talk about it, and this is something I have

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Speaker 2: a lot to say about, so do a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: So it's going to be outlines I just.

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Speaker 3: Randomly I do.

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Speaker 2: So there will be spoilers for all nine episodes. The

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Speaker 2: Last of US HBO Max series. The finale aired on

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Speaker 2: March twelfth, so if you haven't watched it yet, put

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Speaker 2: a pause, go and do it. They're not sponsors, which

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Speaker 2: is a mistake.

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Speaker 1: It's as trivisty, just like the one that happened in

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Speaker 1: this episode.

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Speaker 2: So this is something that thanks to Samantha and her encouragement,

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Speaker 2: we decided to do where a week after the most

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Speaker 2: recent episode comes out, we react to we recap to

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Speaker 2: it and react to it. And it has been replacing

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Speaker 2: my Happy Hours, so that's bi weekly thing. I know,

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Speaker 2: our schedule is a bit of a mess. It comes

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Speaker 2: to that one on Saturday. Yes, but this is the

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Speaker 2: final one, so we will be returning to our regular schedule,

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 3: Maybe with more Last of Us content in disguise as

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Speaker 3: Happy Hour.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I like to do that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I like to do that. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So we are talking about mainly the finale in this one,

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Speaker 2: which was called Look for the Lights, which is The

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Speaker 2: title is a mirror of the first episode when You're

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Speaker 2: Lost in the Darkness with the title with the title

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Speaker 2: of that one, does this look for the light?

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Speaker 1: As we have come.

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Speaker 2: Full circle, you can see our upcoming episode on Marlene,

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Speaker 2: who is very pivotal in this episode. It will have

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Speaker 2: spoilers as well, if you don't mind season two slash

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Speaker 2: Game two spoilers, because yes, they've announced season two and three.

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Speaker 2: I believe the episode we did on Women in Survival

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Speaker 2: Horror has more on some of the stuff I'm going

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Speaker 2: to talk about, probably put more eloquently because this is

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Speaker 2: just kind of me throwing thoughts and an outline. So

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Speaker 2: also the episode we did on Ali, but that one

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Speaker 2: will spoil everything for you, so I wouldn't recommend it

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Speaker 2: if you don't wantny spoilers, but if you do, it's

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Speaker 2: available to you. Yes, content warning for this one. Suicidality,

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Speaker 2: brief mention of that violence particularly like child endangement perhaps,

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Speaker 2: but overall, yeah, violence and suicidality I think are the

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Speaker 2: big ones this one. Yes, yeah, yeah, And thanks to you,

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Speaker 2: Samantha is always for hosting these watch parties at your home.

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Speaker 1: It was great. It was lost fun.

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Speaker 3: The last one was Saint Patrick's Day themed with the

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Speaker 3: Korean yes splashed in there.

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Speaker 2: It was delicious. It was delicious, and I cried a

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Speaker 2: whole time.

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Speaker 3: But she cried the whole time. She brought decorations like

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Speaker 3: she was ready diffreak decorations.

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Speaker 1: I was so ready.

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Speaker 2: Well, Samantha, can you give us your excellent freecap?

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Speaker 3: All right? So it's a short episode, but it has

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Speaker 3: so much in it, and it opens up with what

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Speaker 3: we see as a woman running through the woods. We

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Speaker 3: get the back of our head. There was a lot

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Speaker 3: of controversy is who is that? During the interview I

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Speaker 3: knew because IMDb. Anyway, so as we are watching, it

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Speaker 3: turns out to be a woman who was very pregnant

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Speaker 3: running into a farmhouse saying hello, I'm here. Where are you?

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Speaker 3: No one's there. She runs into a room, she locks

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Speaker 3: the door and then shoves a chair there. We hear

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Speaker 3: that she is obviously going into labor real struggles. At

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Speaker 3: the same time, we see a clicker or a zombie.

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Speaker 3: What are there? Or they're a runner? What are they called?

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Speaker 1: I think that was a clicker infected? Infected?

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Speaker 3: Oh, just infected? Okay, So they run in and she

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Speaker 3: is having an epic battle. We see a knife that

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Speaker 3: we've seen before, and then we see an epic stabbing

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Speaker 3: of the neck which we saw before as well, and

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Speaker 3: then her sitting there and realizing, oh god, she gave

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Speaker 3: birth at the same time, oh god, I got bitten

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Speaker 3: on my leg. She quickly cuts in milk cord and

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Speaker 3: she is talking to the baby, talking about how tough

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Speaker 3: they are. Turns out it's Ellie and yes, this is

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Speaker 3: mom mom Anna, who is played by Ashley Johnson. Yes

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Speaker 3: she is significant. We love her, we love her voice.

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Speaker 3: As time goes on, it grows dark. We see Marlene

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Speaker 3: and obviously some fireflies coming in, realizing that the door's locked,

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Speaker 3: but get in, go upstairs, finding Anna sitting by herself

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Speaker 3: with a baby, and then Marlene realizes quickly that she

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Speaker 3: has been bit, and at that point Anna was like, Ellie,

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Speaker 3: this is my baby. Take her to give her to

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Speaker 3: someone who would care for her. She was not infected.

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Speaker 3: I was bitten after I cut the umbilical cord. And

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Speaker 3: then once you take her, you must kill me because

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Speaker 3: she is bitten. Marlene, And it turns out that Marlene

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Speaker 3: and Anna have been friends all their lives and they've

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Speaker 3: known each other forever. Marlene just says she can't do it,

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Speaker 3: she can't kill her, but Anna's pleading. We turn back around,

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Speaker 3: Marlene gives the baby to another firefly. Marlen comes back

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Speaker 3: and executes her essentially, and we jump to present day,

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Speaker 3: where we see a traumatized Ellie walking about and just

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Speaker 3: obviously looking into the distance as Joel is trying to

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Speaker 3: talk to her. Obviously very different conversations now because he's

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Speaker 3: being very caring and over the top, like hey, hey, hey, hey, hey,

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Speaker 3: how are you finding a chef boyardi canned of food,

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Speaker 3: hoping that she would get excited, as well as Boggle,

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Speaker 3: which I don't think was in the it was in

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Speaker 3: the actual game, right, talking about how you know this

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Speaker 3: is the one thing that he would get beaten by

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Speaker 3: he can't play it very well, and he's she's obviously

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Speaker 3: in the distance. He's like, you would you like that?

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Speaker 3: She's like sure, why not? Talks about the guitar that

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Speaker 3: he found and taking a hell and her that, hey,

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Speaker 3: what if I found one and teach you how to

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Speaker 3: play the guitar. She's still distracted, but she's like sure, sure, sure.

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Speaker 3: So they go onto getting closer to their place. They

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Speaker 3: have this whole thing about like, Okay, we're here, what

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Speaker 3: are we going to do? And she's like, I know

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Speaker 3: you want you want me to go in, Let you in,

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Speaker 3: go to the top and look for and scout out

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Speaker 3: arout blah blah blah. He makes a joke. He was like, no,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna go and cause a big explosion and just

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Speaker 3: to run everything down and she's like really, He's like no,

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Speaker 3: so fun times they go in. He says, I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: lift you up there send the ladder down, and he

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Speaker 3: this is a part of the game, by the way,

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Speaker 3: that's the whole thing. So he pushes her up and

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Speaker 3: she throws down the ladder and she's like, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: just look at you have to come see this, and

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Speaker 3: he's freaking out. He's like Ellie, stay put, stay put,

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Speaker 3: and then he runs all the way up and she

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Speaker 3: comes to a giraffe. Yes, And it is a scene.

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Speaker 3: I do remember this scene in the game where they

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Speaker 3: find a giraffe and she's like, wow, you can't beat this.

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Speaker 1: View.

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Speaker 3: It's very sweet moment. She's kind of coming back to herself,

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Speaker 3: giggling and having a good time feeding this giraffe and

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Speaker 3: having a moment together As they continue the journey, he

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Speaker 3: kind of talks about all his trauma and what he

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Speaker 3: has gone through and talks about the fact that he

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Speaker 3: had you know. They come to a barracks where the

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Speaker 3: army had set up a medical tent for those that

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Speaker 3: could be possibly infected, and she was trying to like, oh,

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Speaker 3: who would have used this? He's like, I used this

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Speaker 3: And she's like, oh, is this when you and Sarah

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Speaker 3: got injured? And he's like no. After that, she's like, oh,

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Speaker 3: when that dude missed you shooting you. He's like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and then he tells the whole story about how he

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Speaker 3: had actually tried to shoot himself, missed and flinched and

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Speaker 3: that's the first time he had ever done it and

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Speaker 3: he didn't know why, but he doesn't regret it now.

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Speaker 3: And she's like, yeah, I don't regret it either. I

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Speaker 3: know why you told me to do the story just

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Speaker 3: to keep going, and he's like, no, we just know

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Speaker 3: that I'm here blah blah blah. So it was really

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Speaker 3: bought good bonding experience that I just blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: But it's okay. As they keep going, they're having a

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Speaker 3: good conversation about how we don't have to go here.

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Speaker 3: You and I could just do our own thing, go

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Speaker 3: back to Tommy's and we can go home. And she

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Speaker 3: was like, I have to do this. This is my purpose.

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Speaker 3: What was the point of everybody sacrificed if I don't

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Speaker 3: do this? But after this, I'll go anywhere with you.

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Speaker 3: We can do be sheep, farmers or whatever, but I

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Speaker 3: will go with you after we get this done. So

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Speaker 3: they check through it all of a sudden, no, no,

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Speaker 3: we see a bomb and he's like, oh no, let

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Speaker 3: me throw myself in front of her and both of

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Speaker 3: them kind of get knocked out and he's like Ella, Ellie,

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Speaker 3: and someone comes over and he gets kicked in the

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Speaker 3: head and then push his lights around. Next thing we

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Speaker 3: see is he's waking up in the middle of the

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Speaker 3: hospital room and Marlene is there and he's like what

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Speaker 3: is going on. She's like, calm down, calm down. My

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Speaker 3: people attacked you. They didn't know who you were, but

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Speaker 3: now you're safe. And he's like, where's Ellie And he's like,

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Speaker 3: she's here, she's getting prepped for surgery. He's like, I

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Speaker 3: want to see her. She's like, no, you can't, and

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Speaker 3: then says that the doctor says, oh, we can probably

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Speaker 3: get a cure by doing these things because she is immune,

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Speaker 3: and they think she's already got cordyceps and they're going

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Speaker 3: to do these things. And he's like, wait, the cordyceps

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Speaker 3: live in the brain. She's like correct. And at that

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Speaker 3: point he's like, how you can't do this, it'll kill her.

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Speaker 3: She's like, you know, we have to do this. This

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Speaker 3: is for the humanity. And at this point we know

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Speaker 3: that no one's talked to Ellie. She's like, I didn't

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Speaker 3: tell her anything. I didn't want her to worry. I

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Speaker 3: just you know, let her do her thing all this stuff.

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Speaker 3: She's like, you know, I can't believe you made at

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Speaker 3: this sup far, you know, one of the few. How

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Speaker 3: did you do it? Good job. But now that you've

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Speaker 3: done it, we're going to get followed through with this.

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Speaker 3: And she has her people escort him out with a

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Speaker 3: bag and says that if he does anything, shoot him.

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Speaker 3: So obviously like yeah, this is a really tense moment.

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Speaker 3: So he gets escorted out and we see him doing

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Speaker 3: some things, scouting some things, and all of a sudden

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Speaker 3: doing his little thing and then killing all the people's

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Speaker 3: So he turns the gun and he goes through with

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Speaker 3: the entire hospital just mowing people down. Real gruesome, real gross,

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Speaker 3: real sad, and coming to find where Ellie is in

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Speaker 3: the operating room, where the doctor pulls up his capole.

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Speaker 3: He's like, what are you doing in here? And he's like,

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Speaker 3: unhook her and he's like, I won't let you take her.

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Speaker 3: The doctor says this, in which Joel's response to shoot

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Speaker 3: him in the head, which makes everybody scream, and then

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Speaker 3: he tells the nurses to unhook her. He grabs her.

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Speaker 3: While he tells the nurses to turn around, he doesn't

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Speaker 3: shoot them, which is unlike the game. He does shoot

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Speaker 3: them in the game, but as he carries her out,

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Speaker 3: we see her in the elevator in his a moment

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Speaker 3: of like obviously like a lot of heart and a

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Speaker 3: lot of thoughts going through his head. And then we

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Speaker 3: as he gets to the car that he has found,

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Speaker 3: Marlene approaches him, tried to reason with him, saying, you know,

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Speaker 3: we can fix this, we can do this. This has

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Speaker 3: to happen, and he's like, you know, you can't choose

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Speaker 3: for her, and she's like, neither can you, and then

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Speaker 3: also saying you know this is what Ellie would want,

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Speaker 3: didn't you know, it's obvious this is what Ellie wanted.

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00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 3: Most likely, she would have wanted it even if it

337
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,399
Speaker 3: did being her death, because she needed her life to

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00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,680
Speaker 3: mean purpose. That's me reading into things whatever. But as

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00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,320
Speaker 3: we continue on, they're having this back and forth and

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Speaker 3: he shoots Marlene. After Marlene puts her gun down, trying

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Speaker 3: to be reasonable, runs to the car. Next thing we

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Speaker 3: see is him driving the truck with Ellie waking up

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Speaker 3: kind of drugged, and he's like, hey, hey, it's okay,

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Speaker 3: it's okay, you're with me. Is the drugs that? She's like,

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Speaker 3: what happened? And he was like, you know, turns out

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Speaker 3: there was others who had been immune and nothing was working,

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Speaker 3: so he just grabbed her. Was like, you know, and

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00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,480
Speaker 3: they've got plenty more people to work with. It just

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Speaker 3: doesn't work, but they don't need you. And she's like, well,

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Speaker 3: did anybody get hurt? And he's like yes, and then

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Speaker 3: she's like Marlene and he doesn't really respond, and then

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Speaker 3: she's like, why where's my clothes? He's like, well, raiders

353
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Speaker 3: came through soor you know, we had to move real

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Speaker 3: quickly and I could barely get you out of there,

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Speaker 3: and then she just kind of after it and then

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Speaker 3: she asked the Marlene question. He doesn't answer, and she

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Speaker 3: just kind of rolls over, and that's what we see.

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Speaker 3: But come back to the flashback and we realize that

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Speaker 3: Marlene is still alive after he shot her in the

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00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,399
Speaker 3: stomach and grunting and he's like, you know. She's like,

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Speaker 3: you don't have to do this, don't You don't have

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Speaker 3: to kill me, and he's like, you'll come after her

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Speaker 3: if I don't. So he shoots her kills her dead,

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Speaker 3: and then we come back. Their car stalls out, and

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Speaker 3: then they are near the mountain. He's like, five hour hike,

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00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,200
Speaker 3: we can do that. She's like, yes, we can do that.

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Speaker 3: And as they walk through they finally make it to

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Speaker 3: he's talking about his daughter and about how much they

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Speaker 3: hallot like each other and all these things. He's very

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00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,760
Speaker 3: he's talking an awful lot, kind of like he's talking

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Speaker 3: out of guilt. And then right before they hit the

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00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,800
Speaker 3: they hit the village that they can see the town

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Speaker 3: that is at from the top of the dock. We

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Speaker 3: made it essentially, and before they get there, she was like,

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Speaker 3: I have to know, you know, I want to tell

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00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,840
Speaker 3: you about the first time I killed somebody, and she

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00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 3: talked about Riley and then she was like, but I

378
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 3: need you to promise me swear to me that what

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00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 3: you said to me about the fireflies was true, what

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00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,159
Speaker 3: happened in the hospital was true. He goes, I swear

381
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,040
Speaker 3: and then she makes a face. She says, okay, endsing

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Speaker 3: m hm.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,720
Speaker 3: There was a minute with a pun book. He was like,

385
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,960
Speaker 3: I want more puns than Annie's favorite pun before they

386
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,200
Speaker 3: get jumped was the grapes pun.

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00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,120
Speaker 1: He gave it a three out of yeah.

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00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Annie's crying right now, there's tears in her eyes.

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Speaker 1: I tell you, Oh my god.

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00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,920
Speaker 3: I want to say it's because of my fantastic dramatic recap,

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00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:04,879
Speaker 3: but even just start thinking about it.

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00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 1: It can be both.

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00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 2: That was a fantastic dramatic recap. Thank you Smith. It

394
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 2: is interesting because this is the shortest one, but the

395
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 2: ending is so pivotal and there's so much to say

396
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,879
Speaker 2: about it that uh and they do pack in a

397
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:34,439
Speaker 2: lot in it.

398
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 1: They do.

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00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 3: I feel it's very reminiscent of the game because it

400
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 3: goes whosh an end, but it is impactful, but you're

401
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,640
Speaker 3: not going to know why it's impactful until season two.

402
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's part of the reason it upsets me so much.

403
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,920
Speaker 2: I will have a few I will have a few

404
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,240
Speaker 2: vague hints too, but no spoilers at all, I promise.

405
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, and it is in the game. It

406
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,120
Speaker 1: is very, very loyal to the game.

407
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 2: There are a few character differences that I have been

408
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 2: talking about, and I'm going to talk about more in

409
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 2: a second, but like, pretty much that's what happens. Is like,

410
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 2: after this horrifying thing in Winter where Ellie goes to

411
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,200
Speaker 2: this really traumatic experience, it cuts to Spring again. It's

412
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 2: split into seasons, and it just very quickly wraps up,

413
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 2: like to the point you're kind of shaken by it

414
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,199
Speaker 2: about how quickly things go from oh, this could be

415
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 2: a hopeful ending to oh wow.

416
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: What just happens?

417
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 2: And as you were kind of calling out, there were

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00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 2: several callbacks in this episode to earlier episodes. I think

419
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure Joel's wearing the same shirt at the

420
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 2: end that he was wearing like right at the beginning

421
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 2: of the outbreak in Boston. That can't deny that viewline

422
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,479
Speaker 2: five mile hike, the guitar, the puns, of course, Riley,

423
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 2: the chef boyer D and I feel like it was

424
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 2: a really good way to show this like journey that

425
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 2: we've all been on over the.

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00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 1: Past nine episodes.

427
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 2: And I did want to call out a few things

428
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 2: before we get into the crux of this, which is

429
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,360
Speaker 2: these choices made at the end, one being Ashley Johnson,

430
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 2: who played Anna, Ellie's mother.

431
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,640
Speaker 1: She was amazing. She was amazing.

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00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 2: We've said it before in previous podcasts and episodes of this,

433
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:29,439
Speaker 2: but she was the voice actor in motion capture person

434
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 2: for Ellie. She kind of like really embodied that role

435
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 2: for a lot of people became Ellie, and so when

436
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 2: I was watching it, you hear her voice and it's

437
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,199
Speaker 2: hard not to think of Ellie at first. But I

438
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 2: do think they did a really good job, and they

439
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 2: talked about that with Bella Ramsey, where that was one

440
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 2: of the reasons they put this scene in the game

441
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 2: that in the show that is not in the game.

442
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: You don't see Anna giving birth to Ellie, you don't

443
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 2: see her dying, but kind of this like playing the

444
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: mother of the character, sort of giving birth to Ellie

445
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 2: and almost a passing of the torch.

446
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 1: But Bella Ramsay has.

447
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 2: Become Ellie too, in her own right, Like, so I

448
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 2: think they did like an excellent job with that, But

449
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 2: that was really really cool to see her, to see

450
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 2: her do it. Also, no spoilers, but if you know,

451
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 2: you know pretty sure Abby wasn't in it, you can see her.

452
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 2: I've like it was an article her.

453
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: Once you see it, you're like, oh, yeah, that was

454
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: probably her.

455
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: Also, the voice actor Laura Bailey is one of the

456
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 2: nurses uh at the end, So that's super cool the

457
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 2: voice actor of Abby. As I mentioned in the last episode,

458
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 2: one of my favorite things about this section is how

459
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 2: it starts. Where as you were saying, Ellie was very despondent.

460
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 2: She's distant. I like that that she doesn't just like

461
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 2: bounce back from this horrible thing that's happened to her,

462
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 2: and it clearly impact and stays with her. I do

463
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 2: love this because I feel like I got my TikTok friends,

464
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 2: I got my Reddit friends. Katie, who was part of

465
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 2: our viewing parties, is my Reddit friend one of them,

466
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: and she was telling me about this like really powerful

467
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 2: thread she found about rape survivors. You found a lot

468
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: of power in this depiction of Ellie, So I thought

469
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 2: that was really interesting. Through that you do see all

470
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: of these instances of Joel trying to cheer her up

471
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 2: that are just kind of not working, like she's playing

472
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: along with it, but she's kind of like And the giraffe,

473
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: it was a real giraffe. It's so cool to see

474
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: how they shot it. There was some CGI, but it's

475
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 2: a real giraffe. Oh, it's so neat. And they were

476
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 2: talking about how they had to leave it in because

477
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: it is one of those like sweet scenes where you

478
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 2: get to see Ellie's still have that kind of innocent

479
00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 2: curiosity that she has had. And in the game, you

480
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 2: can watch that scene for as far as I know, forever,

481
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: like eventually the drafts leave, so you're just staring off

482
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: into the distance. But you have to make the choice

483
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 2: to kind of as Joel, to interrupt Ellie and be like, hey,

484
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: we don't have to do this if you don't want

485
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: to do it, and that's when Ellie has her like you, No,

486
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 2: after everything I've done, we have to see this through.

487
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 2: But this brings us to what I love. I have

488
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: seen several headlines calling it the great Joel Debate, Oh

489
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 2: I love it, and Bella Ramsey we mentioned it previously,

490
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: but she did say she knew this was gonna happen,

491
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 2: as did we who have played the game. It's been there,

492
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: but like a massive divide in the fan base about this.

493
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: It's kind of like the trolley problem but.

494
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 2: To the nth degree. And I, well, I have a

495
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 2: lot of thoughts about it. I think that as I

496
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 2: said in the first episode, when I didn't know this

497
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 2: was going to be a series, I made the point

498
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: that in the final scene where you're making your way

499
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 2: to Jackson back to Tommy's after all of this silence

500
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 2: has happened, after Joel has lied to Ellie, you're playing

501
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: as Ellie, which I think is important that you're getting

502
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: kind of her POV. That they made that choice very deliberately,

503
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: and she's still very out of it, clearly wrestling with

504
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 2: this turn of events. But I just think that was

505
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: purposeful that they have that final scene that you're playing

506
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 2: as her, and it is one of the most haunting

507
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: endings I've ever played, Like it gives me goosebumps just

508
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: thinking about it. And they did that, like that shot

509
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: is just her face. That's the final shot, and she's

510
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 2: clearly like struggling with what to do here and what

511
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: to believe and that is that is a really big

512
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 2: part of her stories. We've been talking about that survivor's guilt,

513
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 2: and that's when she's saying, you know, first it was Riley,

514
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 2: and then it was tests, and then it was you know,

515
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 2: she's listing off all these people who died specifically from

516
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 2: infected and her feeling like that's her fault, she could

517
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 2: she could fix this, that that is her fault, and

518
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 2: that that is something she just struggles with so much.

519
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: And people, I'm telling you, people are interviewing philosophers, they're

520
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 2: interviewing psychologists, they're interviewing professors.

521
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: About this, about what went down here, about what Joel did.

522
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 2: And it does go back to that question that they posed,

523
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: we posed earlier, and they posed earlier in the behind

524
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: the scenes of like what would you do for love?

525
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 2: Like the dark side of love? Taking it to the

526
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: really far and of that dark spectrum of love, like

527
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 2: how many will you kill? How many will you condemn?

528
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 2: And one of the things that keep going back to

529
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 2: is that I feel like there is also a conversation

530
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 2: to be had here around agency and loneliness and love

531
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 2: because one of the things I feel, and this is

532
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 2: up for interpretation, I know, but I feel like Joel

533
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 2: he does love Ellie, but I think he's more concerned

534
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 2: about loneliness and what will happen to him without her.

535
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people, and I'm going to

536
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 2: get into this in a second, a lot of people

537
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: try to really explain his actions are like why they're okay,

538
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: And a lot of times it comes out, well, I

539
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: was did it for love, which is not an acceptable

540
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: answer in my opinion. But also I think there's also

541
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: a there of it. I think it's complex, but I

542
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 2: do think he was really there was a selfishness to it.

543
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: I don't even know if that's the right word. But

544
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: he didn't want to be alone anymore. He didn't want

545
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: to go through this loss again, and so it was

546
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: that as well. And if you go back and look

547
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 2: at like the whole above me the way I want

548
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: you to line with Bill and Frank, and you know,

549
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 2: Frank saying I've had a good life, this is what

550
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: I want, and Bill being devastated by that, but ultimately

551
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 2: doing as Frank wanted versus Ellie and Joel, where I

552
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: think Joel was too afraid to ask her what she wanted.

553
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: And you can bring in like she is a child.

554
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 2: I'm not saying he's her adult, but she is a

555
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: child who is traumatized, so she might not make the

556
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 2: healthiest decision. But also who's making these super healthy decisions

557
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: in the apocalypse. I'm not sure anybody is. But you

558
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: also have like you know, in Bill's letter where he's saying,

559
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: this is what men like us do. We fight to

560
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: protect those we love, and means like Joel sort of

561
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: interpreted that in a way that maybe wasn't what Bill

562
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 2: exactly meant, kind of.

563
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: What he meant, but not exactly what he meant because

564
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: of what the choice he made with Frank.

565
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: But also if you look at like Ellie and Riley

566
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: and what happens when you know they promise to die

567
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: together versus Bill and Frank versus Ellie and Joel. I

568
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of interesting juxtapositions there. But I

569
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: think this is where I want to be very clear here,

570
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: because I think this is where my issue comes in.

571
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: Is not even necessarily.

572
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: The end, which I love the ending, but the fan

573
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: reaction to the ending, and especially in the gamer community,

574
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 2: because I do want to say I am talking a

575
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 2: lot about the game too, and maybe even more and

576
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: I'll try to be clear about that, but that's where

577
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: a lot of my kind of like hesitation, like defensiveness

578
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: and anger comes up when I talk about it is

579
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: more the fan reaction to the ending than the actual ending,

580
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: which I like a lot. I think it's very, very haunting,

581
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 2: and I saw a great article that was like, it's

582
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: not meant to be triumphants, It's meant to be tragic,

583
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: whereas I think a lot of fans who played it

584
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: felt triumphant at it, which I don't think was intended

585
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: at all. But you know, I also think, as I

586
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 2: was saying, a lot of people do try to justify what.

587
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: Joel did, and there's some.

588
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: Plenty of good faith arguments, for sure, but there are

589
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: plenty of bad faith ones. I personally think the fight

590
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: about the vaccine misses the point about whether or not

591
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: it would have worked. It certainly implied that it would

592
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: have scientifically in our real world, I don't think so,

593
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: but it certainly implied definitely in the game that they

594
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: had run tests they were pretty confident it was going

595
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 2: to work. So I think that misses the point. I

596
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: think if you're like going into outside like, well, I

597
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 2: don't know, because in reality. In reality, even though cortersets

598
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: could in fact us the likelihood is extremely small. I

599
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: hope that doesn't come back to bite me this one day.

600
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: But like, I don't think that is like a good

601
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: faith argument in my opinion, A lot of people are

602
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 2: trying to make it. I don't think this that's legit,

603
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: because yeah, it's not. And I remember I had this

604
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: conversation with a good friend of mine about it. You're

605
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: not meant supposed to feel good about what you've done

606
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: at the end, at least that's the.

607
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: Vibe I got. You're supposed to be like, oh God,

608
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: what have I done?

609
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 2: And people seem to be trying to find these ways,

610
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: especially as players of the game, when you have been

611
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: playing this character the whole time, you are behind a

612
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 2: lot of the actions that he did as the player,

613
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: that you try and find these ways to make yourself

614
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: feel better about what you just did, which was like tragic.

615
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 2: And I think another thing that gets lost in this is.

616
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: We do see Joel change.

617
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: He does be come, you know, softer with Ellie like Kinder,

618
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 2: He's still very very violent. You do see him become

619
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: kind of this more caring person, but the fireflies when

620
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: he gets there. They have no way of knowing that,

621
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: like the last time they saw him, he was I'm

622
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: pretty sure he had like killed some of their people,

623
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: or at very least was like violent towards some of

624
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: their people. And not to say that they weren't aggressors either,

625
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: but like they didn't have a good relationship, I guess

626
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: what I'm saying. And they'd seen him outright not want

627
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: to take Ellie, kind of throw her around in the show,

628
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: and so they don't know when he arrives. We do

629
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: as the viewers, and I get that can be hard

630
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: to separate, but they don't know that Marlene, you could argue,

631
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 2: especially in the game, has more claim to Ellie than

632
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 2: Joel does. But she does seem to sense and I've

633
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 2: been thinking of she kind of gets the understanding that

634
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: he does care about Ellie, and I think it's because

635
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: she's kind of taken aback that he went through all

636
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: of this effort to travel across the country to get

637
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: her there, and so she has this sense of like, oh, Okay,

638
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 2: he's really grown to care about her, And a lot

639
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 2: of people, you know, say like they could have just

640
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: talked it out. I'm not sure, I personally don't think.

641
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that could have been a good,

642
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 2: nice step, but I don't think anybody would have changed

643
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 2: her mind or it would have changed the action.

644
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: As we've been saying.

645
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: Also throughout this, they did make Joel softer in the

646
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: show than in the game. They made him more sympathetic,

647
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 2: and in fact, somebody who doesn't who I actually don't

648
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 2: know what I know through a friends had just played

649
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: the game watched the first episode of the show and

650
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: was like, wow, they made him so much like nicer,

651
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 2: So it's a parent. It's not just me, it's it's apparent.

652
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 2: And at the same time, they made Ellie and Marlene harder,

653
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 2: kind of harsher, which I think they did for a

654
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 2: lot of reasons, but one of the big one is

655
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 2: knowing this ending was going to be so possibly very controversial,

656
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 2: how are they going to stick behind this character. There's

657
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 2: also the whole conversation of him of Joel replacing Sarah

658
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: with Ellie, so at the end when he's kind of

659
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: comparing Ellie to Sarah and he keeps making these like, oh,

660
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 2: but you know, she was a bit earlier than you.

661
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 2: Not that that's bad thing, but you were like this,

662
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: and she would have liked you for this, Like it

663
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 2: has that kind of vibe if he's really trying to

664
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: both both remember Sarah but put Ellie in this role

665
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: of being his daughter, and that idea again of what

666
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 2: would he do if he lost another Sarah, if he

667
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 2: loses Ellie, what he'll do out her? And maybe in

668
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: a way that is not taking into account Ellie so

669
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 2: much as compared to himself. He is very traumatized about failing.

670
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 2: In his mind, he has failed. He failed Thereah, Tommy,

671
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 2: and Tess, So I think that also got tied up

672
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 2: in that. But you know, as we said in that episode,

673
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 2: episode six, he doesn't have that conversation about like his

674
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 2: anxiety around failing in the game either. There's certainly the

675
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: cycle of trauma. He can't see past his own grief.

676
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: But also, you know, as I said before, the games

677
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: do that so well, and I think the show did

678
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: it so well too. But like when you see one

679
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 2: character kills another character, that character now has that trauma

680
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: and they go on to cause more trauma, and then

681
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: they go on to cause more trauma. I do think

682
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 2: and I talked about this more and the Survival Women

683
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: in Survival Horror episode I think that we do as

684
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 2: a society excuse men's trauma more easily, or like we

685
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 2: accept what they do because of trauma, like we're around

686
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 2: violence and anger more easily, and I think Joel is

687
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: certainly an example of that. I haven't really dived into

688
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 2: this with the show, but in the game, absolutely absolutely,

689
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 2: and people love Pedro Pascal, so I would not be

690
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 2: surprised at all. There's also the juxtaposition which they hinted

691
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 2: at in episode eight of Ellie not really needing a

692
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 2: father versus Joel realizing that he does need a daughter,

693
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 2: and that kind of coming to a head, and that

694
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: whole idea of the violent heart, of Ellie having a

695
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 2: violent heart, of Joel having this violent heart, and we

696
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: certainly saw that play out. There is that around that

697
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 2: discussion when he's talking about how he almost took his

698
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 2: own life and he flinched and Ellie says what they

699
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: said in behind this, the behind the episode thing was,

700
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: you know, Ellie thinks she's taken the lesson, which is

701
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 2: time heals all wounds. But cognizing the showrunner said time fades,

702
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 2: people heal, and so Joel is implying like Ellie has

703
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 2: healed him and again, he doesn't know what will happen

704
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 2: if if she's gone, And I also it's kind of

705
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: grappling with what do I think about is he putting

706
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 2: too much of his healing on Ellie? Like I kind

707
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 2: of get the message, but it's also like he needs

708
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 2: to do some he needs to do some in her work.

709
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 2: And then I think one of the biggest differences is

710
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: how they portrayed Marlene, which is interesting because she is

711
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 2: like the same actress in the game in the show,

712
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 2: and I don't think I don't think she's like different

713
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 2: too drastically. It's just more of what they showed about

714
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 2: her character in the show versus what they did in

715
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 2: the game, because you do learn.

716
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 1: A lot more about her in the game.

717
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 2: She is another example I think of women leading in

718
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 2: these like really difficult positions, because we saw that in

719
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: episode two with the scientist saying, you know, we've got

720
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 2: to bomb everything, realizing.

721
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 1: It's going to include her.

722
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: We saw it kind of with tests in the smaller

723
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: sense of her kind of trying to rein in Joel

724
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 2: and his more violent tendencies. And then you see Marlene

725
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: who is having to make this just horrendous choice when

726
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 2: this is her best friend's daughter, and she was there

727
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 2: when she was born and promised to protect her and

728
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: has been protecting her from Afar and having being put

729
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: in the position to make that choice where it's weighing

730
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: that versus potentially the survival of humanity. So I think

731
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 2: my biggest thing is because it does often devolve into

732
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: who was right Marlene versus Joel. I do think like

733
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 2: you can see why they both made their decision right,

734
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 2: You can see what she made her decision. You can

735
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: also see that whole idea of her experiencing loss and

736
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: not being able to save the ones you love. But

737
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: I think she's thinking of it too in terms of

738
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 2: the pandemic, like what all the people she's lost to

739
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: this pandemic. What if there's a cure, you could save

740
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: all of these people. It is pretty clear that she

741
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 2: knew Anna lied about like cutting the umbilical cord before

742
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 2: she got bitten, and kind of takes the chance on Ellie.

743
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: But I do think people forget that part of it too,

744
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,439
Speaker 2: is people have lost. Everyone has but people have lost

745
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 2: people too infected into the pandemic, And that's one way

746
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 2: to think about it. In the game, she did save

747
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 2: Joel though Joel doesn't know that because the Fireflies, a

748
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: lot of them wanted to just kill him when he

749
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 2: showed up because they didn't really trust him.

750
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: And I kind of wonder if one of.

751
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: The reasons she acted the way she did is she

752
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 2: was worried he could talk her out of it, he

753
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 2: could talk her out of this decision, because in the game,

754
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: she's like it.

755
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 1: She doesn't. She feels like she has no choice at all.

756
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,720
Speaker 2: So she's the one that insists he deserves no because

757
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 2: he's the only other one who might know what she's

758
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 2: going But she's the one who insists that Joel deserves

759
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 2: to know, which is kind of tragic given what happens.

760
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: But she's very out of it, like maybe he knows

761
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 2: how I feel, And she didn't really want to be alone.

762
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 2: She'd been struggling with all these like feelings of inadequacy,

763
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: of not being a good leader, of depression. Again, if

764
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 2: you've like just watched the show, you're listening to this,

765
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 2: like what they don't really show it, but just to

766
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: give you kind of some backstory of her. And as

767
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 2: we've said throughout this, like there are no easy answers

768
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 2: in the Last of Us. That's kind of the difficult

769
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 2: thing is that there are no easy answers. You leave

770
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: feeling conflicted, And I'm pretty sure that's what I'm pretty

771
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 2: sure was intended, the complexity and the nuance. You leave

772
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: feeling conflicted. It's this fan reaction where everybody was like,

773
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 2: oh no, I love Joel though he did the right thing.

774
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 2: That kind of gives me anxiety.

775
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:03,919
Speaker 1: Yeah.

776
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: Again, you get why people make the decisions they do

777
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: because they've told these stories really well.

778
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:11,760
Speaker 1: The same with Kathleen and Henry.

779
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 2: You might not agree with the decisions they make, but

780
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,720
Speaker 2: she'd get why they did. And it is a hard

781
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 2: proposition to base a whole game on.

782
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: Our story.

783
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 2: Just protecting someone who is meant to be, especially in

784
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: this world, kind of the ultimate example of innocence. And

785
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 2: then you get to the end and you think you've

786
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 2: been doing that and it turns out you're delivering her

787
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 2: to her death. But I agree, I don't think that

788
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 2: Ellie would have wanted at all what Joel did. She

789
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 2: was struggling with survivor's guilt, so I think she would

790
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: have wanted to go through with the surgery, and neither

791
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 2: did ask Ellie what she'd want. I feel like Marlene

792
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: was like, you know, we can wake her up right

793
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: now at the token ask her. But Joel did not

794
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 2: go through that, didn't want to do that. I think

795
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: he knew, and Marlene even said like, I think you

796
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: know it, and then Joel lies to Ellie, like they

797
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 2: build up this trust and then he lies to her.

798
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 2: I think it was more to protect himself than her.

799
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 2: Some people would I would disagree, but I feel maybe

800
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 2: at least both are going on. But he was definitely

801
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 2: protecting himself, which breaks the trust. It breaks the trusts

802
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 2: and you can see it pretty clear, like when she

803
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 2: turns her back when he doesn't answer about Marlene, and

804
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: he does like, yeah, I think he knew. That's why

805
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: he couldn't tell her. And Ellie kind of forces herself

806
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 2: to believe this because the truth is too scary. They

807
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 2: did talk about in the behind the show thing like

808
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 2: the Link's parents go for their kids, the lies they'll

809
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: tell Marlene Angel two kids, the kind of unconditional love

810
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: of a parent, that it's this big thought experiment of

811
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 2: choosing one person you love over humanity.

812
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: What would that look like? I do like.

813
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: Pedro Pescal called it the horror and the humanity of

814
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: it because you again you get it, but you're like

815
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: horrified by it that someone could be capable of this

816
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 2: in the name of something that should be that we've

817
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: been often shown to be a good thing, like love

818
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,919
Speaker 2: and caring for a child. I will say in the game,

819
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: you don't, at least I didn't. You don't want to

820
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: kill the surgeon. In fact, you can go through not

821
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 2: have to kill too many people in that final hospital stretch,

822
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 2: but it's very difficult. You have to kill the surgeon,

823
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: though it won't move on until you do. And Neil Juckman,

824
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 2: who is the creator of the game, said Joel would

825
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 2: never have made a different decision, and that's why they

826
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: left that in there. This is also why some of

827
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 2: the gamers get mad at to be like, well, my

828
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: Joel would never have done that.

829
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: But you made me do it. But the fact is

830
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: Joel did it.

831
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 2: It's also like how he did it because if you

832
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: go back to Tommy's line, He's says, you know, there

833
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,720
Speaker 2: were other ways we could have survived other than violence,

834
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 2: we just weren't any good at them. So this is

835
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 2: kind of him of Joel reverting back into what he

836
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 2: is good at, which is this violence. Because there are

837
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: plenty of examples of people surrendering. As you said, in

838
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: the game, he does kill the nurses as well. I

839
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: love games that play with that formula of making you question,

840
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 2: like how games work and you know, going back and

841
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 2: looking at what you've done. I have seen a lot

842
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 2: of dudes defend Joel by saying basically about Ellie, like

843
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 2: he saved her life. She should be grateful, she should

844
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 2: be thanking him, and the implication is almost like me,

845
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: as Joel saved your life, he should be thinking me.

846
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: But these are games that make you question your actions

847
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: as a player and how games work in general. And

848
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 2: I think this show did a really good job of

849
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 2: I again, this is me. Maybe I felt like that

850
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 2: capturing the horror of that part of watching something unravel

851
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 2: where you thought it was going to go this way

852
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: and then it doesn't, It goes not that way at all.

853
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: I do think that this story is more nuanced than this,

854
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 2: but it is still a pretty like masculine coded way

855
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: of surviving, Like it's a you know, masculine dude protecting

856
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 2: a young girl through violence. It is the apocalypse. But

857
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 2: I do think, you know, ultimately there are elements of that.

858
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: Certainly and there are yeah, fans who celebrate the ending

859
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 2: because they see it as a display of strength, which

860
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 2: just like horrifies me.

861
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: And I've also I've said.

862
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 2: Frequently like if you were playing as Ellie or if

863
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: you were playing as Marlene, which I think for Marlene's

864
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: respect would be really cool because she went through a

865
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 2: lot of stuff to get over there, would you feel

866
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 2: the same way if they did that?

867
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: I don't think so.

868
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,720
Speaker 2: I think they wouldn't have gotten the same like positive

869
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 2: react if they had made this choice that jolted and

870
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: I will have more to say about to that really true. Yes, Also,

871
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 2: like I think the name is very fitting because the

872
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: whole game they're kind of looking for the light. There

873
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 2: are a lot of examples of like Ellie being in

874
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 2: the light. I know your partner pointed out in like

875
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 2: episode two where there she's on the kind of that

876
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 2: mossy field and Joel and Tests are in the darkness

877
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 2: and Test kind of takes a step forward to the

878
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: light and Joel stays back Like that kind of looking

879
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 2: for hope is a big, big theme in it. And

880
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 2: then you get there and the fireflies are this like

881
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 2: representative of hope look for the light and you get

882
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 2: there and it's just not what you thought it was.

883
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 2: And then what happens when you lose that hope? What

884
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 2: happens when you stop looking, when you stop looking for

885
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 2: the light, when you've given up on hope altogether. And

886
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 2: that's why the moth became a big symbol of it,

887
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,399
Speaker 2: of like kind of always chasing the light and then

888
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 2: never ever ever being able to find it. I will

889
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: say they also gay Fedra and the fireflies more complexity

890
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 2: in this and more nuanced because they I feel like

891
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 2: in the first one, while you didn't think the fireflies

892
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 2: were perfect, they were much more like Federa is bad,

893
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 2: fireflies are goudd, whereas in the show they were more

894
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 2: quickly like Fedra's bad, but it's not all bad, and

895
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 2: fireflies are.

896
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 1: Also bad, but not all I mentioned in the last episode.

897
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 2: I have heard some complaints around, like I guess it's

898
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 2: too quick, it went too quickly. I think that everything

899
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 2: they cut out. I get why they cut it out,

900
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: because in a game you have to quote do something.

901
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 2: I just feel like some people were just mad because

902
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: it didn't have literally everything.

903
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: From the game in the show.

904
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: But they are different mediums and there's reasons I feel

905
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 2: like that I understood why things were cut out and

906
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 2: there are reasons why things were added in. And I

907
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:01,959
Speaker 2: did notice when I was looking through this, which didn't

908
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: surprise me. But the lowest rated episodes on IMDb are

909
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: the queer ones. Yeah, I do have some stuff when

910
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: we get to the second season.

911
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: That's three years now ready, and.

912
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 2: That I'm going to talk about because I know some

913
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 2: people like there's a lot of controversy, good faith and

914
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 2: bad faith around that one.

915
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: So I just know that I know it, but we

916
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: will talk about it.

917
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: I wanted to briefly go over some of my favorite

918
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 2: moments very quick. The performances were great. All the performances

919
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,720
Speaker 2: were great. I loved Pedro Pascal. I loved his anxiety speech.

920
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 2: I loved Nico Parker storm read. I loved Belle Ramsey

921
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 2: and like when she has that massive breakdown and Ate

922
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:08,240
Speaker 2: was amazing. Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett so sweet, Lamar

923
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: Johnson and Kevon Woodwards, as Henry and Sam very moving,

924
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 2: Garriel Luna, Ratina Wesley.

925
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: The voice actors being on there were super cool.

926
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: That was very very cool. I loved the sets. I

927
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 2: love the attention to detail. I thought a lot of

928
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 2: the shots were very beautiful. Basically everybody that made it happen.

929
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: I love the floaters and the clickers.

930
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: Sounds like giving a speech.

931
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: Just won the reward for this show that you involved.

932
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 3: I love so much. I want to think, let me

933
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 3: have my moment.

934
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 2: I love the music, which is also from the game,

935
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 2: but I also love the music they picked, like depeche Mode.

936
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: Very cool.

937
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. I loved like the opening of the Apocalypse, the

938
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: Bill and Frank thing, the puns, Henry and Sam. I

939
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 2: love Maria and Jackson them all, the draft, the final shots,

940
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 2: oh my god. But mostly I loved hanging out and

941
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,439
Speaker 2: sharing this with others. I loved hanging out with you

942
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 2: and having this experience.

943
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 3: It was beautiful. The joy for me outside of this

944
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 3: show was the excitement that you had. You looked like

945
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 3: you were opening presents on Christmas morning every day that

946
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 3: you would come over getting prepared, and you had to

947
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 3: come in before everyone else, And I felt like that

948
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 3: was for you to get into the environment of the

949
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 3: house so that you could acclimate people coming over. This

950
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 3: is that why you did this. That's what I felt

951
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 3: like was happening. Your excitement. It literally was like watching

952
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 3: a kid in the candy store for the first time.

953
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 3: It was delightful. You crying all through every like the episodes,

954
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 3: and I think Joey is going to put up a

955
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 3: TikTok because I did record you throw out. I did

956
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 3: a boomer thing, which we were supposed to have a

957
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 3: completely different recording, but then I came back with like

958
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 3: recording you because you were jump in the finale tears.

959
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 3: It was phenomenal and I looked over and I was like, well, damn,

960
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 3: she's ready. I do love every part of that. Yeah,

961
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 3: and the show was fantastic. I did love knowing the

962
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,919
Speaker 3: behind the scenes. Thanks to you and your many playthroughs. Y'all.

963
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,359
Speaker 3: She's played through this so many times, and she's done

964
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 3: it as if she is playing movies for other people,

965
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 3: like her family, her friends have come through to watch

966
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,760
Speaker 3: her play and it's quite hilarious. She's had my partner

967
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 3: playing it so she could watch it like a movie

968
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 3: as well. Like the overall has been amazing. Oh and

969
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 3: the FYI, did you know that Bella Ramsey's scene where

970
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 3: she comes out to Pedro Pascal and like this almost

971
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 3: happened was shot before her actual kill scene, Like she

972
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 3: had not even done that emotional scene to come and

973
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 3: react to it. She reacted it before she even did it,

974
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,399
Speaker 3: like that's that caliber of acting. Holy crap like that.

975
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 3: It wasn't in like chronological order for her to piece

976
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 3: that together, but it worked so well her flow. We

977
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,879
Speaker 3: talked about it before, like she's gonna be winning Oscars

978
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 3: soon enough on her own, I'm sure. But yes, the

979
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 3: joy in you watching like it literally there's a New

980
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 3: Girl scene in which they talk about how much they

981
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 3: love watching someone else doing something else, and it goes

982
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 3: from like, I get as much joy out of this

983
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,320
Speaker 3: watching you watching this person watching this. It was literally

984
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 3: me watching you watching that. That's where I got the joy.

985
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 3: The name was just the show, just watching you watching it?

986
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: Was it all? Well, thank you. I appreciate so much

987
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,359
Speaker 1: that you shared it with me, offered.

988
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 3: Up your home like I would want it no other way.

989
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 3: It better be with me from now man.

990
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 2: Yes, oh my gosh, it was just so nice. It

991
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 2: was so fun. We did marathon it and I recommend it.

992
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 3: We did, and we say we, I mean her and

993
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 3: I just walked in and out all the time.

994
00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 2: And then I was supposed to be doing other stuff

995
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 2: that I got drowne in so but it's so good.

996
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 1: I just close the book now that it's over. I

997
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:08,280
Speaker 1: needed like as grefast.

998
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 3: But it'll never be over for you.

999
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: That's true. I'm going to start the second game soon.

1000
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: It's not like Callinger. I know. This was kind of

1001
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: like haphazard, just my thoughts all over the place.

1002
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: When I tell you, I was lying awake at night

1003
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 2: trying to think of ways to phrase this.

1004
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: I just didn't want to turn it into too much

1005
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: of a thing.

1006
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 2: But I might come back and like really lay it

1007
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: out because the people are fighting about this in a

1008
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 2: lot of ways are fun.

1009
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 3: But I mean, I think we need to do a

1010
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 3: spoiler Saturday about Last of Us too, and you can

1011
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 3: go into your theories of what's coming and so that.

1012
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 3: Oh I can't Christina would have to edit it. Who

1013
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 3: is watching it? So never mind, damn, how do we

1014
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,400
Speaker 3: do this? We need to find in it. Let's make Ramsey,

1015
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 3: who has been a part of our viewing, he.

1016
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: Would have some.

1017
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 3: He's going to cut and paste and make it look

1018
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 3: really bad just for his own sake.

1019
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And I mean I've just had such a

1020
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 2: good time sharing this with you two listeners of like

1021
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 2: people have written in and even if you haven't watched

1022
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 2: it or played it, and kind of having this thing

1023
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,439
Speaker 2: where I got to really just explode passion about something

1024
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 2: that I love and I do everything that you love

1025
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 2: has issues, and I have talked about him in previous episodes,

1026
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 2: but this is kind of more like I touched on

1027
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 2: some here, but this was much more a love letter.

1028
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 2: But just now those exist, I can point you in

1029
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 2: there in their direction. I have a lot to say

1030
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 2: about the Last of Us. And if you watched the

1031
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 2: uh making of on HBO, which again not a sponsor,

1032
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 2: if you wait till like the very end, they do

1033
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 2: kind of an end credit scene and then it cuts

1034
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: to Neil Druckman and he's like, that's the end of

1035
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 2: the story, and then it announces Last of Us Season

1036
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 2: two coming soon. I also love they put this line

1037
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 2: in there, like you've come to an end and you

1038
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 2: don't know what to do next.

1039
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 1: Yes, I know I've come to an end.

1040
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 2: I'm playing the second one, yes, but yes, we will

1041
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,399
Speaker 2: see you next time, whenever that will be where I do.

1042
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 2: I have a lot to say. And if you think

1043
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 2: you're conflicted after this one, oh my goodness, I cannot wait.

1044
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:25,399
Speaker 3: I don't know if you're right.

1045
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if you're ready. But

1046
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 1: thank you.

1047
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 3: Yeah for those of you who are like, this was

1048
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 3: so sad. The second I'm making a face, I'm just

1049
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 3: making a face twice.

1050
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 2: So as twice the opportunity for sadness and it makes

1051
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 2: use a bit so thank you, thank you, thank you

1052
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: to everybody. You can write to us at Stephanie Momsteph

1053
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 2: at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter

1054
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: at mamstep podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok, where you

1055
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 2: can see some of my crying about the last of

1056
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:01,359
Speaker 2: the videos all the time at stuff Mom Never Told

1057
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 2: You. You can also find us on YouTube. Thanks as always

1058
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 2: to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and

1059
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 2: our contributor Joey Yay. Thank you, Yes, thank you so

1060
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 2: much for making all this happen, and thanks to you

1061
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:15,880
Speaker 2: for listening.

1062
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 1: Steffan Never Told yous direction of iHeartRadio. For more podcast

1063
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio, you

1064
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 2: Can check out the Heart Radio Apple podcast, where you

1065
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows