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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Delphi murders, Little Abby

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Speaker 1: and Liberty both murdered, the eerie ritual sacrifice murder claims.

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Speaker 1: What is that a ritual sacrifice murder? Is that the

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Speaker 1: defense and a mighty clash in court over the suspects confessions.

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Speaker 1: Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Abigail Williams and Liberty Germans set out to walk along

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Speaker 2: the popular Delphi historic trail, but the two miss They're

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Speaker 2: appointed pitcup time.

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Speaker 3: What happened to Abby and Libby?

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Speaker 1: Right now? Hearings are going on in that courtroom. And

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Speaker 1: joining us at the courthouse my longtime friend and Collie

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Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix, journalist, author of Down the Hill, my to

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Speaker 1: sent into the double murder in Delphi. You may know

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Speaker 1: her from my old TV home hl M. Well here

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Speaker 1: she is now with us with the latest. Susan, welcome,

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Speaker 1: what's happening. I'm hearing that there is a mighty clash

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Speaker 1: of the titans in the courtroom over alleged confessions statements

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Speaker 1: that the suspect made, and also the state is trying

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Speaker 1: to quash the defense that odonists, which are kind of

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Speaker 1: like they worship Thor and the Valkyrie. They're actually claiming

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Speaker 1: that they did it. I think it's a horrible move

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Speaker 1: by the state. In fact, if I were prosecuting this,

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Speaker 1: I would be mad if the defense didn't claim odinists

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Speaker 1: did the deed.

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Speaker 4: Really some heated moments, as you mentioned in the courtroom.

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Speaker 4: What will be admissible, what will the judge rule on this?

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Speaker 4: What will be left out? But huge I'll start with

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Speaker 4: the confessions, the alleged confessions that Richard Allen made to

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Speaker 4: his wife Kathy and his mother, who by the way,

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Speaker 4: our front row there in the hearings, and he mouthed

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Speaker 4: the prisoner Richard Allen, the suspect, I love you when

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Speaker 4: leaving the courtroom. So back to the oness theory. There's

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Speaker 4: been several Frank motions and the judges yet to rule

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Speaker 4: on that, but that is where they're going. We're getting

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Speaker 4: a taste of the defense theory during these hearings. Will

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Speaker 4: it be admissible? And you bring up such a good point,

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Speaker 4: why not let it in? Because the one name they

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Speaker 4: do want in, which is one of the Frank's motions,

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Speaker 4: Brad Holder of the prosecution saying, look, he has an alibi.

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Speaker 4: We don't want to allow this, but that does make sense.

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Speaker 4: Let them have their theory. If he has an alibi.

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Speaker 4: The jurors are going to see that. But several key

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Speaker 4: decisions have to be made after this week, and I

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Speaker 4: think it will give us an indication of what we'll

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Speaker 4: hear during the trial in October.

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Speaker 1: On my first talk, we'll get to the oldest claim

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Speaker 1: that worse hers Thor and the Valkyrie, they committed the

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Speaker 1: double murders. I'm going to get to that in a moment,

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Speaker 1: But first, something that I understand a little bit better

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Speaker 1: the legal concept of confessions and confessions. Guys joining me

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Speaker 1: in addition to Susan hendrickson an All Star panel is

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Speaker 1: Rich Schoenstein. He's a renowned trial attorney partner with Tartar,

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Speaker 1: Krinsky and Drogan. Rich. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: He knows his way around a courtroom. Confessions, in my mind,

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Speaker 1: come in all manner of modes. It doesn't have to

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Speaker 1: be a videotaped confession where you get your Miranda rights

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Speaker 1: first and you're sitting there with your lawyer or like

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Speaker 1: you see on TV. It's not like that. Very often,

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Speaker 1: a defendant such as this guy Richard Allen, the local

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Speaker 1: pharmacy tech, says to his wife on the phone from

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Speaker 1: the jail basically, yeah, I did it. Okay, that's the confession.

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Speaker 1: Rich Schoenstein, that's right, That's absolutely right.

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Speaker 5: You know, jurors have common sense, they apply their life experience.

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Speaker 5: They understand a husband talking to his wife. So those

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Speaker 5: words are to a jury perhaps more meaningful than something

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Speaker 5: he would say under police interrogation. That's him telling the

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Speaker 5: truth to his own wife. And you can certainly see

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Speaker 5: why the defense wants to keep out any version of

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Speaker 5: a statement like that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, quick question, and remember this is ping pong, not

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Speaker 1: just I know you're used to standing up and making

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Speaker 1: all sorts of legal, comic complicated legal arguments. But what

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Speaker 1: about the claim? And I certainly don't want to give

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Speaker 1: the defense any ideas that this was a marital communication

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Speaker 1: protected by husband wife privilege, even though it was over

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Speaker 1: a jail house phone.

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Speaker 5: I think there might be some credit. I think there

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Speaker 5: might be some credit to that it is a communication,

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Speaker 5: It is a private communication between husband and wife. So

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Speaker 5: I'd have to look at local law on the marital privilege,

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Speaker 5: which I don't know in that state to really understand

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Speaker 5: if they have a shot at that. But he is

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Speaker 5: talking to his wife.

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Speaker 1: Rich I've got a way to defeat it. Okay, he

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Speaker 1: got a way to defeat it. Here. It is if

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Speaker 1: you utter a confidential communication, such as you tell your lawyer,

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Speaker 1: I did it. I'm up as creek without a battle,

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Speaker 1: that's protected under attorney client privilege. But what if you

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Speaker 1: say it at a cocktail party and everybody's standing around

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Speaker 1: again to hear everything you say, You yourself by saying

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Speaker 1: it around other people have waived your attorney client privilege

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Speaker 1: and you cannot claim that at trial. Same thing here,

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Speaker 1: This is how I would defeat husband wife. He said

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Speaker 1: it on a jail house phone and everybody knows, and

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Speaker 1: there's a sign up there says these are being recorded,

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Speaker 1: so he willingly gave up that confidentiality. That's how I

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Speaker 1: would attack it.

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Speaker 6: I like the argument.

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Speaker 5: You're absolutely right about a cocktail party. If you say

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Speaker 5: something to your lawyer in front of other people, there

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Speaker 5: is no privilege. You've waived it because you've shared it

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Speaker 5: with people you don't have a privilege with. So I

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Speaker 5: think that's a pretty good argument. That the phone was

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Speaker 5: recorded and he knew that, and he didn't have any

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Speaker 5: expectation of privacy or expectation of a private spousal conversation.

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Speaker 6: It's a good argument.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we're learning a lot about the emotions being filed. Guys.

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Speaker 1: This is so critical because based on the outcome of

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Speaker 1: these hearings, what evidence will or not or will not

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Speaker 1: be presented in front of the jury is going to

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Speaker 1: be determined. Back to Susan Hendricks is joining us. Susan

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Speaker 1: is joining us from the courthouse steps. She's been in

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Speaker 1: the hearings. Explain to me the content of the alleged confessions.

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Speaker 4: Yes, with doctor Monica Wallery her name, who treated Richard

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Speaker 4: Allen in prison and she is key for the prosecution.

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Speaker 4: Will the judge allow her to testify during the trial?

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Speaker 7: And what specifically did she hear?

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Speaker 4: We are hearing that doctor doctor Monica Walla heard incriminating

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Speaker 4: statements from Richard Allen himself and maybe even confessions. So

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Speaker 4: as we spoke of confessions to the wife in the

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Speaker 4: jail house phone call, the mother in the jail house

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Speaker 4: phone call, now the doctor in the prison, will that

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Speaker 4: be admissible.

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Speaker 7: We'll see what the judge rules on this.

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Speaker 1: I go out to Chris mcdona. He's the director of the

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Speaker 1: Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective with oh, there's the video.

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Speaker 1: There's the video that the girls took just before their

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Speaker 1: deaths of the perp walking toward them on that trestle bridge.

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Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnaugh worked over three hundred homicide cases in his

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Speaker 1: twenty five year career. He's a host of YouTube channel.

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Speaker 1: In the interview room, is McDonough how insane does it

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Speaker 1: make you when you hear about legal classes in the

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Speaker 1: courtroom where evidence could very well be suppressed. The jury

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Speaker 1: may never hear about these multiple alleged confessions.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean that's from an investigative aspect, is very frustrating,

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Speaker 6: as you know more than anybody, Nancy. I mean, you've done.

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Speaker 8: This so long and you know the fact that this guy,

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Speaker 8: you know, we used to say confess here. This line

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Speaker 8: is recorded, right and when an inmate does that, and

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Speaker 8: then of course you have it with a jailer.

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Speaker 6: Potentially hearing it.

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Speaker 9: And then add on top of that you have family

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Speaker 9: members who may have heard it. We can understand some

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Speaker 9: of that, but you would hope that the system would

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Speaker 9: work towards you know, the victims heare and relationship to

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Speaker 9: allowing that evidence in.

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Speaker 1: Somewhere you know. Jessica Morgan is joining me Forensics Jacksonville

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Speaker 1: State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon

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Speaker 1: and star of a hit series body Bags. Podcast with

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, you have very carefully studied

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Speaker 1: the facts surrounding the actual murders wait for it. And

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Speaker 1: now the defendant, Richard Alan Richard Matthew Allen, is claiming

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Speaker 1: that his alleged confessions should be thrown out because he

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Speaker 1: was under quote mental distress when he confessed to killing

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Speaker 1: Abby and Liberty aka Libby. Let's talk about what happened

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Speaker 1: to Abby and Libby?

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Speaker 10: Yeah, you know, kind of dovetailing with what Chris had

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Speaker 10: said there. Nancy. I'm fascinated by this aspect of the

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Speaker 10: of this confession depended upon you know, how you know,

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Speaker 10: down how granular he got with this, with this statement

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Speaker 10: that he made. It's one thing for somebody to say

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Speaker 10: I killed them, okay, but I wonder how much detail

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Speaker 10: is included in this, in this alleged confession that he

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Speaker 10: made to his wife, because that's that's a damning, a

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Speaker 10: damning bit of information. If he gets into the kind

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Speaker 10: of granular detail that we're talking about relative to this

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Speaker 10: very complex scene outdoors out there adjacent to this trestle.

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Speaker 10: How much information did he reveal about that? And is

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Speaker 10: it going to be reflected in what we're what the

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Speaker 10: jury will eventually see in these images, and they're going

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Speaker 10: to be absolutely ghastly because we're talking about these two

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Speaker 10: precious souls who were taken by sharp force injury, and

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Speaker 10: that has been plainly stated. We're talking about a knife

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Speaker 10: that was involved than this, and I think to a

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Speaker 10: great degree, perhaps this is going to be overkilled. There's

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Speaker 10: going to be mutilation that's involved with that, if I

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Speaker 10: dare use that word.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott. You can't just throw drop a bomb and

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Speaker 1: then just walk away like nothing happened. That doesn't work

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Speaker 1: on crime stories. You just say mutilation. You think what

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Speaker 1: I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that. I heard it.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean by that?

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Speaker 10: I'll say it plainly. We're talking about perhaps to the

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Speaker 10: point of a partial decapitation here, Nancy. And you know

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Speaker 10: when you look at that in light of a crime scene,

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Speaker 10: you think about, well, what was necessary, I hate to

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Speaker 10: put it this way, what was necessary to take somebody's life. Well,

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Speaker 10: you know, it's not just it's not just sufficient to

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Speaker 10: merely stab one of these angels. Okay, that's that's not sufficient.

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Speaker 10: To this point, this rises to another level. We're talking

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Speaker 10: about what was done with the bodies afterwards and how

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Speaker 10: they were treated in this environment. And this is going

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Speaker 10: to be damning, absolutely damning, because the people in the

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Speaker 10: jury are going to see things there that they can't

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Speaker 10: even begin to imagine in their worst possible nightmares.

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Speaker 3: Who murdered Abigail and Liberty. A suspect is called on

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Speaker 3: video with his menacing instructions down the hill.

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Speaker 1: The outcome of these hearings that are happening right now

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Speaker 1: in a court of law will determine what evidence the

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Speaker 1: Delphi jury will hear and what evidence will be kept

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Speaker 1: away from them as if it never happened. Joining me

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Speaker 1: at the courthouse, well known journalists and investigative reporter Susan

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Speaker 1: Hendrix explain to me what's being heard, what was heard yesterday,

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Speaker 1: and what's going to be heard.

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Speaker 4: And we just heard Nancy Richard Allen say, guys, down

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Speaker 4: the hill. As you know, Libby was brave enough to

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Speaker 4: hit record on her phone and her grandfather Mike has

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Speaker 4: mentioned to me several times. Look, I think if she

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Speaker 4: made it home, she would have said, Grandpa, look at

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Speaker 4: this creepy guy on the bridge. Look what I've recorded.

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Speaker 4: The defense does not want what's on Libby's phone to

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Speaker 4: be admissible in court. The reasoning they state is that

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Speaker 4: it was handed over too late in terms of discovery.

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Speaker 4: It'll be interesting to see if it's allowed in because

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Speaker 4: to me, this is what is going to convict Richard

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Speaker 4: Allen if he is guilty.

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Speaker 7: That video that she was able to get.

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Speaker 4: And I'm sitting with the family members Nancy of day

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Speaker 4: one of the hearing. It's the first time I ever

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Speaker 4: saw Richard Allen walk in in person, and it was

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Speaker 4: very eerie to see him sit down. He turns around,

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Speaker 4: looks at me Becky, Libby's grandmother, and Libby's grandmother's daughter Tara,

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Speaker 4: right in the eyes and just glares at us and

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Speaker 4: continue to do that throughout the hearing. And I was

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Speaker 4: trying to get a read on him as I'm looking

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Speaker 4: at him sitting there. And part of the evidence that Baldwin,

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Speaker 4: the defense attorney, hands it over to the.

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Speaker 7: Judge, had the crime scene photo on half of it.

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Speaker 7: It's a split screen.

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Speaker 4: He's waving it around. I'm sitting here the family. I

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Speaker 4: could get a glimpse of the crime scene photos from

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Speaker 4: the attorney, and I heard Tara say to Becky, close

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Speaker 4: your eyes.

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Speaker 7: It's that excruciating.

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Speaker 4: But this is a necessary step before the trial, and

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Speaker 4: I know that these families have been waiting a long time.

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Speaker 7: To be here.

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Speaker 4: But very creepy throughout the hearing, Richard Allen turning around

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Speaker 4: staring me directly in the eyes.

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Speaker 7: It doesn't move his gaze. It was something I've never

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Speaker 7: seen before.

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Speaker 1: How dare he turn around and look at you and

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Speaker 1: the victim's families and just glare at you. And he's

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Speaker 1: probably glaring at you because you're sitting with the I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know what, Chris mcdona, how many times in court

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Speaker 1: you're a veteran homicide investigator have you been in court

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Speaker 1: to testify you got to murder, much less double murder

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Speaker 1: of teen girls allegedly sitting there, They usually won't even

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Speaker 1: meet your eye. But to turn around and glare at

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Speaker 1: you in open court, that's a whole other level right there. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, And the fact that he allegedly is a child killer,

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Speaker 6: that in of its shelf. The It just gives you

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Speaker 6: a little insight into potentially, you know, what the victims

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Speaker 6: were seeing themselves that day at his hands, and the

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Speaker 6: fact that the weapons there are two weapons here potentially

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Speaker 6: you know they remember they found this round underneath one

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Speaker 6: of the victims as well as a knife. You know

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Speaker 6: what Doc Morgan was talking about earlier, the viciousness and

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Speaker 6: the brutality of that personalization by using that type of weapon.

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Speaker 6: Now you add that to children. I can understand why

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Speaker 6: the defense does not want him in the Department of

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Speaker 6: Corrections corrections right now. They'd rather have him in a

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Speaker 6: better spot, i e. In the jail.

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Speaker 1: Well, yes, yes, Chris McDonough because obviously he can't control himself. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let me throw this out there. Who would be the

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Speaker 1: best you know what? Let me go to you, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: and then I'll follow it up with Karen Stark. Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: you have been in court with a lot of killers,

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Speaker 1: right because you're a death investigator. Have you ever been

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Speaker 1: on the elevator. Let's just pretend in the courthouse somebody's

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Speaker 1: standing right next to you, and does anybody turn around

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Speaker 1: and look you right in the eyes on the elevator. No,

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Speaker 1: they don't. Has that ever happened to you? And if so,

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Speaker 1: how did it make you feel?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 10: It's certainly even someone like me that's seeing the thing

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Speaker 10: or two, you know, it creeps me out certainly. Uh.

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Speaker 10: And the idea that that the stone cold gaze, that

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Speaker 10: he would sit there and stare, stare at the family

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Speaker 10: in particular and Susan as well, but sit there U.

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Speaker 10: And this goes to another piece, Nancy, the idea. You know,

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Speaker 10: Chris had mentioned this round that was found at the scene.

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Speaker 10: He has, in my estimation at least, uh, this thread

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Speaker 10: that runs through him of what I refer to as menacing.

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Speaker 10: That weapon. The firearm was used I believe as an

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Speaker 10: instrument of menacing with these children. It's the idea of

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Speaker 10: taking that firearm and moving that slide back to racket

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Speaker 10: like this, And everybody that's ever watched the television show

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Speaker 10: is familiar with that.

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Speaker 3: These children that would have.

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Speaker 10: Been there would have been menaced by that. And I

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Speaker 10: think that this is a further continuation of him glaring,

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Speaker 10: leaning in, glaring and holding a gaze. It seems to

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Speaker 10: be a pattern to me. I don't know, I mean,

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Speaker 10: that's kind of Karen's area. But for me as an investigator,

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Speaker 10: that's putting two and two together.

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Speaker 1: You know what you're saying about racking the shotgun. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you remember Rifleman. It's an old black

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Speaker 1: and white show.

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Speaker 7: I was just a.

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Speaker 1: Little little girl, and I remember my brother, my older brother,

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Speaker 1: would have it on Rifleman and at some point he'd ratchet,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't even know what that meant. But it's

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Speaker 1: like hearing a rattlesnake or a gun shot. You never

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Speaker 1: forget it. When you hear it, you instinctively know something

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Speaker 1: is very wrong.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, it has a very distinct pitch to it and

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Speaker 10: the sound the mechanism itself when that slide goes back

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Speaker 10: on that weapon, and we do know that, I believe,

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Speaker 10: if I'm correct, it was a six hour that he had.

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Speaker 10: When that thing is racked back, it has a very

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Speaker 10: definitive sound to it, that round is ejected, and of

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Speaker 10: course he forgets about it apparently at that point time

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Speaker 10: and leaves this behind. Yeah, well there you.

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Speaker 1: Go, technical legal term idiot. Hold on, Rich Schoenstein. You're

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Speaker 1: a veteran trial lawyer. Aren't you supposed to school your

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Speaker 1: clients about how to behave in the courtroom. I mean

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Speaker 1: I always see defendants, murder defendants, drug lords, rapist, child

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Speaker 1: molesters come in court looking like they're a Wall Street banker.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, who is that? Do you remember? Let's think

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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson. I would watch him walk into court every

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Speaker 1: morning like the football quarterback. He'd be all puffed up

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Speaker 1: in an awesome suit, looking great. I didn't think he

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Speaker 1: looked great or handsome, but other people did. Who else,

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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, Menendez brothers. I'm hearing it in my ear. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Menandez brothers come into courtroom looking like their freshman

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Speaker 1: at Harvard, and they have their defense attorney picking lint

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Speaker 1: off them and petting them in court. You know what,

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Speaker 1: stop and Ted Bundy looks charming in the courtroom. It's freaky,

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Speaker 1: but their lawyers had them schooled. This idiot turns around

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Speaker 1: and glares at the victims' grandma and Susan our Susan

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Speaker 1: Hendricks glares at her in the court of Oh. I

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Speaker 1: hope he does that to the gurrrs. I just hope

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Speaker 1: he has not been school showing sane.

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Speaker 5: No, not at all. And you're absolutely right. You got

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Speaker 5: to teach your defend in how to act in court,

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Speaker 5: because whether he testifies or not, and this guy's not testifying,

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Speaker 5: so forget about that. He's going to be watched every

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Speaker 5: second he's in that courtroom. The jury's going to have

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Speaker 5: their eyes on him. They're going to see how they act.

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Speaker 5: And the bottom line, Nancy, is if they think he's creepy,

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Speaker 5: if he acts creepy, he's in big trouble because this

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Speaker 5: is the creepiest crime imaginable, killing two young girls in

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Speaker 5: the middle of the woods hoods. And if the jury

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Speaker 5: sees him and thinks he's a creep it's going to

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Speaker 5: be so much easier for them to convict him. And

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Speaker 5: if I was this guy's lawyer, I would be working

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Speaker 5: with him on that extensively.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and what about oj Simpson? May he rot Hill?

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Speaker 1: He would sit there in doodle the whole time. Hey, Karen,

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Speaker 1: start this is a visceral thing. How you don't stare

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Speaker 1: at somebody on the elevator. You ever been in a

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Speaker 1: restaurant and you look over and somebody's just staring at you,

355
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Speaker 1: so you don't look back, and then when you do

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Speaker 1: look back, they're still staring at you. There's something weird

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Speaker 1: and awkward about that? Did you hear what Schoenstein just said.

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Speaker 1: He's a veter on trial lawyer, and he's right, how

359
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Speaker 1: do you hide your creepy in court? This guy can't

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Speaker 1: hide his creepy. He's gonna have to look down and

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Speaker 1: write notes like Simpson wrote, I did it, and you

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Speaker 1: know whatever he was drawing over there. And also another thing,

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Speaker 1: Karen start, well, I've got you. It's visceral. Remember we've

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Speaker 1: been told when you're going to go feed an animal

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Speaker 1: at the zoo or in various encounters, you don't look

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Speaker 1: them in the eye because they perceive that as a

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Speaker 1: sign of aggression. Okay, I'm just speaking frankly and plainly

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Speaker 1: to you as if I would tell a jury. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure there's all sorts of gosh, what can I say,

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Speaker 1: mental and psychological analysis of what I'm saying. But the

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Speaker 1: fact that this guy turns around and eyeballs in an

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Speaker 1: alarming way, a menacing way, Susan Hendrix, She's just sitting

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Speaker 1: there with the grandma for Pete's sake, and looking at

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Speaker 1: the victims family like that. It's wrong. Okay, help me out.

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Speaker 1: Give me the psychological term of what I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: tell you.

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Speaker 11: It's nonverbal behavior in Nancy, and we have to watch

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Speaker 11: that nonverbal behavior because Asseph Scott said, this is menacing.

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Speaker 11: And unfortunately, if you think about these two little girls

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Speaker 11: with this man who's daring in the courtroom, he's boldly

381
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Speaker 11: staring and yes, you want to have eye contact under

382
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Speaker 11: certain circumstances, you're taught not to look away. But this guy,

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Speaker 11: he has no shame. He's he actually wants to come

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Speaker 11: across this way, like I dare you to condemn me.

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Speaker 3: Twenty four hours after Abigail and Liberty go missing, their

386
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Speaker 3: bodies are found beneath a train trestle. Chilling phone video

387
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Speaker 3: reveals the suspected killer.

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Speaker 1: Aside from his creepy and menacing, stars right at the

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Speaker 1: family of Libby and Abby off when I think about then,

390
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Speaker 1: they're just two little teen girls. And from what we hear,

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Speaker 1: there may be evidence that this thirteen and fourteen year

392
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Speaker 1: old litle girl were actually mutilated. Mutilated by who, according

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Speaker 1: to prosecutors, the local pharmacy tech. I mean, how many

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Speaker 1: times do you think he saw them come in and

395
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: out of the pharmacy and then the bullet that was

396
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: cycled through the gun. You heard Joe Scott describing racking

397
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Speaker 1: the gun. That bullet fell, according to the State, near

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Speaker 1: the bodies, an idiot aka the defendant, Richard Matthew Allen,

399
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Speaker 1: aged fifty one, left it there. Now, just think about it.

400
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Speaker 1: For so long, details about the crime scene were kept

401
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: under wraps, and I've got to hand it to l

402
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Speaker 1: E law enforcement that that didn't come out because they

403
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,120
Speaker 1: later pursue it to warrant. I would like to add,

404
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: because Schoenstein's listening to me, pursue it to warrant. They

405
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: go into Allen's home and they find the gun still

406
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: there because he didn't realize he left the bullet back there.

407
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: It matches the gun in his home. That ballistics evidence

408
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: is so powerful. If what we're being told is the

409
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: evidence is actually true, so much happening in the courtroom,

410
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 1: so much, guys listen to this.

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Speaker 12: The defense wants four sanctions. They want the court to

412
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Speaker 12: tell jurors the prosecution violated rules with a delay in

413
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Speaker 12: turning over exculpatory evidence. They want the judge to allow

414
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 12: the defense to play any video that was belatedly produced

415
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 12: without the state objection. The defense also wants to prevent

416
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 12: the State from rebutting evidence former Rushville Police Chief Todd

417
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 12: Glick provided on May first, twenty twenty three. And they

418
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 12: want to prevent the prosecution from using any data or

419
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 12: info from Liberty German's phone in evidence, Jerry presentations, my stars.

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Speaker 1: What else do they want? A shopping spree at nordstroms Uh,

421
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: that's a lot. Hey, quick answer, Susan Hendricks. When is

422
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: the actual trial supposed to start?

423
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 4: It's set for October, Nancy, but as you know, it's

424
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 4: been postponed and delayed several times, possibly another tactic. But

425
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 4: it felt to me like it's going to go forward

426
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 4: in October.

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00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: We'll see, So let me get this. They're whining that

428
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: they've gotten exculpatory evidence too late. It's hello, it's the

429
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: end of July, August, September, October, three months. You've got time. Okay,

430
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: what else do we know? Listen?

431
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 12: The state wants to limit what the defense can mention

432
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 12: in front of jurors without prior approval from the judge.

433
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 12: Prosecutors have several pages of items, including personal attacks on

434
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 12: the prosecutor, any attempt to introduce evidence of third party

435
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 12: motive that is not relevant or would unfairly prejudiced jurors.

436
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 12: This includes mentions of Odinism, ritualistic killing, references to how

437
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 12: discovery was handed over, and any mention of an investigation

438
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 12: conducted by former Rushville Police Chief Todd klick O Dennism.

439
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: Okay, I think the state is making a horrible mistake

440
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 1: right now, trying to suppress the defense theory an odinist

441
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: killed the girls. What am I talking about? Listen?

442
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 13: Court documents alleged that Abby Williams and Liberty German were

443
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 13: ritualistically sacrificed by members of a pagan Norse religion called Odinism.

444
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 13: The defense rights the bodies of both victims had tree

445
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 13: branches placed on them in specific patterns, and one had.

446
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: Small sticks in her hair to.

447
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 13: Resemble horns or antlers. Odinists are said to be enamored

448
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 13: with Viking culture.

449
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: Okay, I just wanted to pause a moment. Let that

450
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 1: sink him that Odinists obsessed with Viking culture somehow infiltrated

451
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 1: this small, very sparsely populated area. The Oldness infiltrated and

452
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: then made two human sacrifices to the Norse god Odin.

453
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: Why in the world, Rich Show and statee would the

454
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: state want to keep that out. I would be fighting

455
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: for the defense to please make that argument.

456
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 5: I agree with you, Nancy, and forget about how ridiculous

457
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 5: for a minute. The argument is when the defense stands

458
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 5: up there and says somebody else did it, they're taking

459
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 5: on a burden of proof that they don't need to

460
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 5: take on. The defense has no burden of proof. They

461
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 5: just have to challenge the sufficiency of the proof and

462
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 5: reasonable doubt. But if they make this a binary choice

463
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 5: between either Richard Allen did it or Odinists did it,

464
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 5: I don't see how that's going to help them at all.

465
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 5: I think that is biting off a burden that they

466
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 5: don't need to assume going into this tribe.

467
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: Well, there's more. They're connecting Odinism, they worship of the

468
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: Norse gods, to something much more nefarious.

469
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 14: Listen deciding what information the jury can be told a trial.

470
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 14: That is the purpose of hearings this week in the

471
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 14: Delphi murders case. In earlier court fight, links prosecutors requested

472
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 14: the court bar the defense from bringing up certain terms

473
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 14: from past arguments, like the odinism theory. The defense argues

474
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 14: the murders of Abby Williams and Libby Jerman were ritualistic

475
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 14: and done by Odinists, not Richard Allen. Odinists practice an

476
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 14: ancient Nordic religion, worshiping Norse gods such as Odin and four,

477
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 14: and some claim it's common among white supremacists prison gang

478
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 14: members in Indiana. The defense uses the Odinism theory appoint

479
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 14: to other possible suspects, and there we have it.

480
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: The defense is using some hybrid argument of the sad defense.

481
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: Some of the dude did it. They're claiming it's kind

482
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: of a mixture between the Viking worshippers, the oldness, and

483
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: white supremacists. So I guess you put that all into

484
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: the blender, boom outcomes your killer. Is that actually what

485
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: they're saying, Susan Hendrix Odniss kind of mixed with white

486
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: supremacists and that's going to consrupt this evil specter to

487
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: the jury. Are they really saying that?

488
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 4: Absolutely? And well said Nancy. It feels like they are

489
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 4: looking for, obviously, some sort of reasonable doubt. Pick and

490
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 4: choose as you will, depending on how the judge rules.

491
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 4: What I think is most damaging is that Richard Allen

492
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 4: put himself on the bridge.

493
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 7: This was a day before what was on Libby's.

494
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 4: Phone was released, So he goes up to an officer

495
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 4: that he knows, Stan Dulan in a parking lot of

496
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 4: grocery store and says, hey, I was down there at

497
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 4: this particular time. I didn't really see much. Fast forward

498
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 4: to almost six years later, more than six years and

499
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 4: allegedly we don't know the details of exactly what led

500
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 4: to Richard Allen, but supposedly they went back through the

501
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 4: files and found that guy that put himself on the bridge.

502
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 4: A day later after the murder's Libby's cell phone evidence

503
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 4: came out.

504
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 7: I think if that came out earlier, he wouldn't.

505
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 4: Have gone up to Dan dulm and said, hey, I was.

506
00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 3: There who murdered Abigail and Liberty. A suspect is called

507
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 3: on video with his menacing instructions down the.

508
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: Hill from trying to suppress cell phone data. I assume

509
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: that cell phone from the little girl victims themselves, or

510
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: maybe it's cell phone data from the defendant Richard Allen.

511
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: From that to suppressing alleged statements confessions to the shrink,

512
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: to his wife and in front of jailhouse guards and inmates.

513
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: Good luck with that. Two claims of not only some

514
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: other dude did it that being Viking worshipers, but also

515
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:50,959
Speaker 1: now the defense is roping in a white nationalist group. Listen.

516
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 13: Attorneys for the suspect, Richard Allen, filed documents saying that

517
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 13: their client is innocent and that members of a white

518
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 13: nationalist group are the ones responsible killing the teenagers as

519
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 13: part of a quote ritualistic sacrifice. The defense said the

520
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 13: group had a motive because the girl's parents was dating

521
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 13: a person of another race. Attorneys also requested the immediate

522
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 13: transfer of Allan from the facility where he was being held.

523
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 13: They say members of the white nationalist group apparently work

524
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 13: there and are threatening his life.

525
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so Alan is claiming the oldness did it, the

526
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: Viking worshippers, and that somebody whose name is a mystery

527
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: belonging to a white nationalist group, don't know which one,

528
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: was angry because somebody related to the victims was dating

529
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: somebody of a different race and they were that angry.

530
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: Instead of taking it out on the somebody's dating, they

531
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: decided to kill and mutilate two little girls. That's the

532
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: defense theory. Okay, please go with that, Richard Allen, Please,

533
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: I beg you argue that at trial, nothing can make

534
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: me happier. And I say, Richard Schoenstein basically gnashing his

535
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: teeth and twisting his tail right now, because that is

536
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: doom for the defense.

537
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

538
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 5: I mean, it's a really tough sell because the theory

539
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 5: doesn't fly just when it comes out of their mouth.

540
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 5: First of all, is it odness or is it white nationalists?

541
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 5: Is it a ritual or is it because somebody was

542
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 5: dating the wrong person. I mean, they've got to pick

543
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 5: a theory and stick with it if they're going to

544
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 5: go down that road. So that's a problem. I haven't

545
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 5: seen that they have sufficient evidence to put this forward,

546
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 5: so I'm not really convinced they're going to go down

547
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 5: this road at trial. What they're doing now, I think, Nancy,

548
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 5: is they're trying to keep all of that available to

549
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 5: them at trial. They're trying to limit what the prosecution

550
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 5: can use. But I think we have to wait for

551
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 5: the trial itself to see what they really argue. If

552
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 5: they do go down down that road, I think they're

553
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 5: making a big mistake.

554
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: Okay, there's any defense theories aside, let's talk about some

555
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 1: hard evidence. This is what the defense better be worried

556
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: about listen.

557
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 13: Police searched Allan's home and seized a handgun, which investigators

558
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 13: believe Alan used in the crime, and matches an unspent

559
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 13: bullet found next to the girl's bodies. About ten hunting

560
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 13: and utility knives were also confiscated, along with the blue

561
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 13: carhart jacket and other clothes. Investigators also took carpet samples

562
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 13: and swaps from the seat belts in Allan's Ford focused

563
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 13: vehicle that they believe was seen on the trail that day,

564
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 13: and Alan admitted in two separate interviews that he was

565
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 13: on the bridge that day.

566
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: He says he went out on the bridge to watch

567
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: the fish. Here's a very technical legal term. I hope

568
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: you're sitting down. You may need to lay down for

569
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: this one. It's very complicated. It's Latin. A defense attorney's

570
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: love throwing around Latin terms on the elevator in the courthouse.

571
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: Of course, I could and be happier, idiot Susan Hendricks

572
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: joining me in the courthouse. Does Richard Allen did he

573
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: actually volunteer? Yes, that he was at the scene of

574
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: the double murders the day of the murders. Quote watching

575
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 1: the fish from a trestle bridge. How tall is that

576
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: thing over the water? Who can see a fish down

577
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: in that muddy water? It reminds me of Ichikani where

578
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: I grew up. You couldn't see a thing in it.

579
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: So what he actually says, he's on the bridge watching

580
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: the fish.

581
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 4: Yes, and looking down at his stockticker as he's walking

582
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 4: towards the bridge, saying, oh, I was just there looking down.

583
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 4: Keep in mind, I know the panel knowses the voice.

584
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 4: His voice if it is him.

585
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 7: It'd be sound guilty.

586
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 4: Down the hill is in that footage on Libby's cell phone,

587
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 4: and I believe that's why they don't want it in

588
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 4: the courtroom. And I do want to point out I've seen,

589
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 4: as I mentioned, him glaring at the families and myself,

590
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 4: but you never hear him talk. And I believe maybe

591
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 4: that's by design because his voice is on that cell phone.

592
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 4: Will they want to compare that even if he doesn't testify.

593
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 4: I mean, I didn't even hear a whisper to his attorneys,

594
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 4: And I was staring at him the entire time to

595
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 4: notice how he was reacting because he saw the prime

596
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 4: scene photos they were put down right across from him,

597
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 4: and I saw him push it away and glance down

598
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 4: for a minute, so I was watching his every move

599
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 4: and never did we hear him speak during the hearing.

600
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 4: So we'll see if that is why they want that out.

601
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: That is so interesting, Susan Hendricks. You know, Jesscott Morgan,

602
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 1: that I ever tell you about my slew footed armed

603
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: robber who was also couldn't spell, and he gave a

604
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: handwriting sample. He could not help misspelling things, just like

605
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: it did the banknote, the bank robbery note, don't touch

606
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: the al ram. This is a robie. Did the same

607
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 1: thing in his handwriting sample. But he was also duck footed,

608
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: slew footed, and when he walked up like that to

609
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: the witness stand, all twelve yer hours were hanging over

610
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: the jury rail. Some things you just can't hide. I

611
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: think Susan Hendrix is right. They don't want him speaking

612
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: in the courtroom because it's going to match to down

613
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: the hill, Down the hill, And not only that, the

614
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: voice and the mode of walking. I think we have

615
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: a video of the perp, the alleged purp, actually walking forward.

616
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: If he is caught walking in the courtroom, and there

617
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 1: is anything at all unusual but unusual or identifiable in

618
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: his gait. The prosecutor is going to seize on that.

619
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, they will. And as you well know, one of

620
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 10: the things that we look for in forensics, people are

621
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 10: compelled to give exemplars of their writing. I really wonder, Nancy,

622
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 10: can he be compelled to give a voice exemplar relative

623
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 10: to this statement that is being made, that has been recorded,

624
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 10: And if so, have they done a voice comparison relative

625
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 10: to that? You know, while they have him here, do

626
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 10: they get a warrant to compare him, to compare his void,

627
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 10: to do a voice analysis on them, and also his gate?

628
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: And you know what else, he's not looking down at

629
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: a cell phone. I wonder if they've done a forensics

630
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: exam of his cell phone to determine if he was

631
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: really looking at the stock market ticker, Like anybody can

632
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: see that on a cell phone. I can't read a

633
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: darn thing on there. How can he read that little

634
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: ticker at the bottom of the screen. He's not looking

635
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: at his phone. That's a lie. We can see his gate.

636
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: Does he walk like that in the courtroom? Susan Hendrix

637
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: pointing out they're not letting him speak because it may

638
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: want it may match down the hill down the Hill,

639
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: the girls caught on their phone, and I've just been

640
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: advised by my producer here in the studio, Jackie, that

641
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: bridge is sixty three feet tall, really conducive to fish watching?

642
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: Is it?

643
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 3: Delphi Murders Suspect Richard Allen claims he didn't do it

644
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 3: and that a pagan cult is at fault.

645
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: It seems to me like the ballistics evidence is going

646
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: to be possibly the strongest evidence in this case. But

647
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: we don't know all the evidence the state is producing.

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00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 1: Susan Hendrick joining me at the courthouse, Susan investigative reporter

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00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: and journalist. Any idea, Oh hey, the name of your

650
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: book Down the Hill, My Descent into the double murder

651
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: and Delphi? Susan, what do you think is the most

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00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 1: powerful evidence the state is going to bring out at trial?

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00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: And what will be the defense counter?

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00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 7: Absolutely?

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00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 4: And I think it has to do with the search

656
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 4: worm of his home. What did they find inside that home?

657
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:01,399
Speaker 4: Was there any DNA on the jacket? Blue Carhark if

658
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 4: he wore that jacket on the bridge that day, Because

659
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 4: it appears the person on the bridge, fridge guy is

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00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 4: in some sort of jacket. I believe it's his voice

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00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 4: As I mentioned, I believe there's some evidence that we

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00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 4: don't know about, and of.

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00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 7: Course the ballistics, but.

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00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 4: Again Libby's video to be stands out, and of course

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00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 4: the confessions if they're admissible. But I think it's just

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00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 4: stacking up against him what the prosecution can and I

667
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 4: believe will use.

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00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off good night