WEBVTT - Listener Mail: Hasten Down the Wind 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.080 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:13.319 Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind Listener mail. 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.560 My name is Joe McCormick. My co host Robert Lamb 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:18.880 would normally be here with me, but he is out 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:22.120 on the day that I'm recording this, so today's episode 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.279 is going to be solow. We read back listener mail 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:27.560 every Monday, so if you would like to get in touch, 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:29.639 go ahead and give it a shot. You can reach 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:34.720 us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:38.239 All types of messages are welcome, but we especially appreciate 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.559 feedback to recent episodes. If you have something fascinating to 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.120 add to a topic we have talked about. I'm going 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.000 to kick things off today with responses to our series 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:52.360 on the illusion of control, which is a psychology concept, 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.840 a type of cognitive illusion in which, in many cases, 0:00:55.920 --> 0:01:00.240 people believe they have more control over outcomes than they 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:11.000 actually do. And this first message comes from Lauren. Lauren says, Hi, Robin, Joe. 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.480 This response pertains to the comment made about light switches 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:18.280 and cookies in the kitchen. Yeah, so for context, this 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:20.360 was something that came up in part three of the 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.920 series when we were talking about magical thinking and its 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:29.479 relationship to control heuristics, which are mental shortcuts we use 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:32.760 to judge whether we had influence over an outcome or not. 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:37.600 And Rob was talking about how even normal direct physical 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:41.199 causation can feel kind of alien and maybe even kind 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.880 of magical if we don't recall consciously willing in action 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:48.880 before doing it. Then the example was absent mindedly turning 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:51.080 on a light when you go into the kitchen at 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:53.640 night for a cookie. So you flip the switch as 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:56.560 you enter the room, but it could suddenly occur to you. 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.880 I don't remember intending to do that. Then troll heuristic 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:03.640 doesn't really give you the green check, because you did 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:06.120 take the action and the outcome happened, but you don't 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.679 remember consciously intending the outcome in advance. Anyway, back to 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.760 Lauren's message. In the single room restroom at work, they 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.520 took out the light switch near the entrance two months 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.520 ago and replaced it with a flat piece of plastic 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.760 to cover the electrical gap. They installed sensor lights that 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:27.600 automatically go on when you enter. This irked me for 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:31.919 two reasons. First, I didn't like no longer having control 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.240 over whether the light was on or off, and I 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.760 felt mildly insulted that my freedom of choice had been 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.760 taken from me. Did they not trust us to decide? 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:44.040 The second reason the whole situation annoys me is the 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.880 fact that I still lift my hand to turn on 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:51.360 the light upon entry every time, even when the lights 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.000 are flickering their way on as I move my arm. 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:59.160 Maybe humans, led by a pervasive, occasionally subconscious desire for 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:02.760 control and an inability to cope with the loss or 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.160 lack of it, delude themselves into believing they have it. 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:11.799 Thanks for making an extremely interesting and enjoyable podcast, Lauren, Well, 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.919 thank you so much, Lauren. Yeah, as for automatic lights 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.160 in the bathrooms, I don't know, I can see exactly 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.120 what you're saying, but I would kind of feel like 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.919 that's got to be more hygienic, right, You're forced to 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:26.680 touch fewer things while you're in the bathroom. I don't know, so. Yeah. 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.959 The idea that some amount of the illusion of control 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.920 is driven by wishful thinking or by a desire for 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:37.880 control is something that came up casually in these episodes 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.120 but was not explored as like a major hypothesis in 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.640 the literature that we were looking at. So the main 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:49.640 explanatory models we talked about were Ellen Langer's skill chance 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:55.040 confusion hypothesis and then Suzanne Thompson's favorite hypothesis of the 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.200 imprecise control heuristic what I was just talking about a 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.200 minute ago. So remember the the control heuristic was the 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:03.800 idea that we usually make judgments of whether we can 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.320 control an outcome or not by using a shortcut that 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.240 asks a few questions, and those questions would be did 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:14.920 I intend an outcome? Did I take an action? Did 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.279 I get the intended outcome or at least in part 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:23.200 or intermittently? And was the action connected in some way, 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:28.080 most often by temporal proximity. You know, there's a time relationship. 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.839 Was the action connected to the outcome? And if these 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.400 criteria are met, we usually think we had control over 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:39.080 the outcome. And this system works fine most of the time, 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.960 but it can get us really confused when results are 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:47.520 mixed or when the connection between action and outcome is ambiguous, 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:54.279 especially in contrived artificial scenarios with hidden mechanisms of causation 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:58.680 and manipulative patterns of feedback like a slot machine. And 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.600 I think in the episode Rob and I both thought 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.640 it seemed like the control heuristic explanation made a lot 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.680 of sense, and there's pretty good evidence for it. But 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.520 also it's absolutely true that illusions of control could arise 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:16.440 from a combination of different factors and confusions of the 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:20.200 control heuristic might be only one part of the equation. 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.039 Wishful thinking or a desire for control could play a 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.800 part as well, and that would dovetail nicely with some 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:30.719 experimental findings that we did talk about in the episode, 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.360 such as the finding that people who are highly motivated 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.440 to get a certain outcome show more illusions of control 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.839 over the process of getting that outcome. So the example 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.279 we talked about would be if you enter a lottery 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.040 and the prize is a sandwich, people who are currently 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:52.360 hungry apparently show more illusions of control over the lottery 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.240 than people who aren't hungry. So I definitely think you're 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.920 onto something with the hypothesis that in some situations wish 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.960 full thinking or motivated reasoning could play a part in 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:07.240 causing these illusions, And I guess that's to invoke cliche. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.000 More research is needed. Be good to see more studies 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.359 on that anyway, Thank you, Lauren. All Right, this next 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:21.960 message is from Anna Anna says, Hello, Robert, Joe and JJ. 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.000 In your first episode about the Illusion of control, you 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.040 talked about the buttons that you pressed to cross the road. 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.640 I just wanted to mention the brilliant design of the 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:34.600 crosswalk buttons in Australia. They are specially designed for people 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.599 with different abilities. They're positioned at a level so that 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.400 people in wheelchairs can press them. The button is a 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:43.320 large silver button that is easy to press, so people 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.880 with arthritis can easily press them. This is also helpful 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.080 if your hands are full, because you can press it 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.520 with your elbow. Also, they make a special noise when 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:54.800 it's time to cross. This is for people who are 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.240 vision impaired. When you're waiting, there's a slow beeping and 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:01.080 when you cross, there is a fast trill of beeps. 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.320 I think some of these are now implemented in other countries, 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.320 but from memory, they were invented in Australia. I seem 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.800 to remember an article praising Australian innovation and inclusiveness that 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:14.880 mentioned these buttons. Yeah, in the States, we have some 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.960 crosswalks that have set ups basically like this, but not 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:22.000 all crosswalks are like that. You know, it varies and 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.320 it goes on. I also wanted to mention a tangential 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:27.640 topic related to the illusion of control, which is the 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.000 idea that if you have one piece of good luck, 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.720 somehow that luck will continue and you need to harness 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.640 that luck because it will only last a short time. 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.800 Like if you have a particular piece of luck, like 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.600 you get a very good parking space, someone will say 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.080 something like you should go out and buy a lottery ticket. 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:47.680 I guess this could also be chalked up to the 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:52.160 idea of good omens, and she specifies not the excellent 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.760 book by Neil Gamon and Terry Pratchett. This can be 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:57.760 a good thing. Say, if you're going to a job 0:07:57.760 --> 0:07:59.720 interview and you park on a street that has the 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:04.360 name of your best friend or a particularly lucky sounding name, 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.520 you will feel this is a sign. Then you will 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.600 be more relaxed and confident in the interview, and that 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:13.880 will increase your chances of getting the job. Anyway. Thanks 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.200 for all the great work, Anna well, thank you, Anna. Yeah, 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:21.160 I totally agree. I think, much like with the beneficial 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:25.600 side of the illusion of control, little lucky feelings like 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.680 this can be a net positive in our lives, even 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:32.480 if they are strictly speaking, illusions and not predictive of 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:36.120 external outcomes. So we talked about this a little bit 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.040 in the episodes, and I would stand by this idea. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.600 I think it can be a good thing sometimes for 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:45.360 people to wear their lucky charm, even though I don't 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:49.839 believe that lucky charms are literally efficacious in changing your luck. 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.559 So I don't believe the charm would change the external 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.120 chances of a good or bad outcome. The thing it 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.920 probably actually does is help you regulate your emotions, which 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:03.560 in turn could actually lead to a better outcome, just 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:05.960 like the example you give. So if you go into 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.120 a job interview more relaxed and confident because you are 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:13.000 wearing your lucky charm, this could literally improve the impression 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.200 you make and your chances of getting the job. Even 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.520 though the lucky charm isn't actually magic, it's just helping 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:22.280 you control your own feelings and your own behavior. So 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:24.960 I think that's a great point. Na, thanks for getting 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.680 a touch. This next message, still about the illusion of control, 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:38.000 is from Renata. Renata says, Hi, Joe and Rob, one 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.760 of my job responsibilities is testing software, and the illusion 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.760 of control crops up all the time in my work. 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.959 One thing I've encountered several times and seeing others get 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:51.320 stuck on too, is trying to figure out the elaborate 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:55.600 steps it takes to reproduce a bug when the bug 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.640 in fact occurs due to factors that are not in 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.760 my control. For example, there might be a bug that 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:05.040 only happens at a certain interval or after a delay 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:09.280 because of system processing time. But what sometimes I end 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:13.360 up doing is coming up with totally irrelevant steps that 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.040 just happen to take the exact amount of time you 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:20.000 need to wait to see the bug. Another example is 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:23.199 similar to an elevator door close button, where we may 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.880 introduce a button knowing that it doesn't do much, but 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.000 it makes users feel more in control, for example, a 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:34.400 button that refreshes information even though it automatically refreshes every 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:39.240 few seconds. The illusion of control also reminds me of 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.880 the self help industry manifestation and the law of attraction 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.080 prey on a combination of the illusion of control and 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.880 confirmation bias. I think the authors you cited who critiqued 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.959 the illusion of control are probably right that as humans, 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.440 we are generally bad at knowing the probability of an outcome. 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.360 And therefore we estimate our control in correctly. But the 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.720 illusion of control is apparently much easier to exploit than 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.000 the illusion of non control, so it ends up being 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.760 a bias we see in the real world that causes 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:14.560 harm more often. And then Ranata ends the message with 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.000 some kind words about the show and by attaching a 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.480 picture of a couple of pet rats. I gotta say, 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.560 these rats are very cute. In the picture, They're kind 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.719 of smooshed together on top of each other, so I'm 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:28.760 trying to figure out are they like cuddling or are 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.680 they climbing over one another to get your attention? Unclear? 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:39.640 Let's see regarding your comments about illusions of control. So 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:44.560 with illusions of control and beliefs about manifestation or the 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.080 law of attraction or other types of magical thinking, this 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:54.320 got me wondering where the line is between the normal, healthy, 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:59.359 empowering optimism and feelings of self efficacy that we talked about, 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:03.880 which may in some cases even encompass what are objectively illusions, 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.200 maybe thinking you have a bit more control over an 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.160 outcome than you actually do. Where's the line between that 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.599 and these beliefs in things like manifestation or whatever. You 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.600 would call a theory of literal psychic control over outcomes, 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.520 which in most cases I would judge the latter personally 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.640 to be not just mistaken but fairly toxic, associated with 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:31.719 the just world fallacy, just generally bad epistemic values and 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:36.920 connections to other false belief formation and so forth. Maybe 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.559 it's just a matter of degree, like how strong are 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:42.920 your illusions of control? But I'm a little bit tempted 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:46.760 to think there's a qualitative difference here and not just 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.760 a quantitative one. I kind of wonder if it is 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:54.960 literally the presence of a model or a concept like 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.760 manifestation or the law of attraction or whatever it is 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:05.480 x externally socially validated model that explains and justifies the 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:09.840 workings of this principle, and the existence of this socially 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:17.079 reinforced model can turn normal, healthy, motivating, empowering minor illusions 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.920 of control into full blown delusions with all of these 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.440 toxic consequences. I don't know, that's just a guess, and 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.520 I'd be curious what listeners think, Like, how do you 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:32.200 go from minor illusions of control that are mostly harmless, 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.120 you know for the most part, and can help us 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:36.240 achieve our goals. How do you go from that to 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.200 thinking that you can literally will yourself to win the 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:43.120 lottery if you just focus and stay positive. I think 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:47.360 that's actually a very consequential question about the thing about 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:51.600 software testing. I don't know if I've ever considered this before, 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.640 but yeah, software testing and bug hunting could function like 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.680 a really devious skinner box where the trigger for the 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:04.360 buzug is not clear and consistent. It's been a while 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.840 since I read the history of the operant conditioning research, 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.960 so I hope I'm remembering this correctly, But what I 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:16.040 recall is that conditioning is pretty straightforward when the reinforcement 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:20.120 is consistent. So the rat presses a button, it gets 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.360 a food pellet. It's the same type of food pellet 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.200 every time it learns to press the button when hungry. 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:30.360 But the variation was that you could really drive test 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:34.680 animals crazy and make them addicted to the conditioned behavior 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:40.360 by inserting some randomness and unpredictability into the reward allocation, 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:45.160 giving us the notion of intermittent variable rewards, which are 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:49.680 little rewards, little fleeting bursts of pleasure that come at 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:54.640 variable time intervals or variable levels of quality with a 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:58.520 somewhat ambiguous relationship to your inputs, so it's not one 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:02.080 hundred percent predictable which of your inputs will produce the 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:07.920 best reward and with what reliability and intermittent variable rewards 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.080 are what you get on slot machines or on your 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:15.120 social media app of choice. And we've talked about this 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:17.400 on the show and before. It's been several years now, 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:19.640 but this is one of the reasons I had to 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.800 pretty much completely get off of social media years ago. 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.880 I know it works for some people, but for me, 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.240 I realized it was just way too addictive, way too 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.640 easy for it to completely monopolize my time and attention. 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.400 And while it had control of my attention, it was 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.880 busy rapidly installing malware on my brain. So I don't 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:45.160 want to be too preachy as the anti social media guy, 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.880 and I'm sure lots of people do genuinely have a 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:50.960 healthier relationship with it, but I had to get off, 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.200 and I'm extremely glad I did. And if you find 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.560 yourself having the same kind of relationship with it that 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.560 I did, I would recommend the same. But anyway, thank 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:01.760 you so much, which we're not a very interesting email, 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:11.760 A lot to think about all right. This next message 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.480 is from Calvin. Calvin says, Hello, Rob, Joe, and JJ. 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.440 Greetings from Chicago. I've been listening to the show daily 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.360 for several years, starting with the episode on the First Monster, 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.000 or about the Loewen Minch. Yeah, it's been a while 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.720 since we did that episode. That was where we talked 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:34.120 about this truly fascinating thirty five thousand year old mammoth 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:38.840 ivory artifact. It's a little statuette from Paleolithic Germany called 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.280 the loewen Minch, which means lion man or lion person, 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:46.040 and we were talking about it because it appears to 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:50.120 depict a human body with a lion head, and at 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:52.920 the time this was the earliest or one of the 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:58.120 earliest known artistic depictions of a creature not existing in nature, 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.680 and this led to us talking more generally about the 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.960 idea of when and how it was that humans first 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:11.000 imagined not just existing predators, but synthetic monsters, predators purely 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:15.960 of the imagination, based often on combinations of pieces of 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.479 anatomy from other creatures. I should flag that I think 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:21.880 I've read in the meantime since that episode that there's 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.680 some dispute about whether the loan minch is best interpreted 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.240 as a human body with a lion head, or maybe 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:32.800 whether maybe it's supposed to depict something else like a 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:36.199 bear or something more strictly found in nature. Don't know 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.520 the answer there, but whatever this particular artifact is based on, 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.440 it's obviously not the first time in history some human 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:45.919 imagined a monster. It would just be like our first 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:50.880 extant piece of evidence for it. And the historical emergence 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:55.600 of an imaginative capacity to dream up nonexistent beings and 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:59.520 creatures is a really really interesting subject to me, like, 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.440 where does that capacity come from? What powers it? Anyway, 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:07.879 back to Calvin's message, Calvin says, You've given me so 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.399 much great content that helped me get through many boring 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.320 work days. Glad to hear that, Calvin. So Calvin says, 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.359 I've never really felt like I had anything to contribute 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:19.520 or write in about until I was listening to the 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.760 Illusion of Control series. My experience with the Illusion of 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:27.080 Control comes from playing the original Pokemon Red, Blue Green 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.600 games as a child. It was a well known quote 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.800 fact among my friend group that if you threw a 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.600 poke ball and Presston held the B button that the 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:41.400 precise moment the poke ball hit you would greatly increase 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.720 the chances of a successful capture. Now I know the 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.800 chances of catching a Pokemon is really just a dice 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.639 roll with modifiers for various statistics of the Pokemon. But 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.680 at the time, I pressed bee every time, and if 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:57.919 the Pokemon broke out of the ball, it was because 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.679 I didn't time it right. Even after realizing that this 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.480 wasn't really part of the game mechanic, I still press 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.280 to be every time for a long while, even when 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:11.159 playing later generation games. It just never felt right to 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:15.040 not press it. It was like I just couldn't leave 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.920 it to chance if there was even the slightest possibility 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.480 that I was having some kind of impact. Anyway, I 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:23.320 just want to thank you for all you do and 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.080 for giving me a great list of movies from Weird 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.320 House Cinema. I know a lot of people prefer to 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.480 watch the movie and then listen to the episode, but 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:34.680 I like to listen first and then watch. Well, thank 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.280 you so much, Calvin. Yeah, the Pokemon thing is a 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.959 great example. Again, It's like when the mechanisms and the 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:45.600 feedback are ambiguous, there's so much room to think we're 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:50.040 exerting control when we're not so Yeah, thanks Calvin. Okay, 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.320 this next message comes from Cindy. It is about our 0:19:53.440 --> 0:20:02.919 Vault episodes on heart removal and heart burial. Cindy says, Hi, 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:05.800 Robert and Joe, I thought you'd get a kick out 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.879 of this. I listened to part one of Because It 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.360 Is My Heart on February tenth and remembered that it 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:16.119 was an earlier aired two part series. So I searched 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.800 for part two to listen to it again and noticed 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.280 that I had never finished. I wondered aloud, why did 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.280 I stop part way through the episode? I pressed play, 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.680 and I was immediately transported back to that fateful day 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:32.720 almost a year ago, exactly when the vivid description of 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:39.280 the most teutonicus funerary process caused me to press stop. Yeah. So, 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.560 for those who don't remember, and Cindy, I'm very sorry 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:44.520 to subject you to this a third time. The most 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:48.560 Teutonicus translates to the German custom, and it was a 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.440 solution used in medieval Europe for transporting dead bodies back 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:56.240 home from far away lands. If, for example, a rich 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:01.040 German warrior died while away in the Crusades, untreated of course, 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.560 the body would be subject to horrible decomposition during travel, 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.560 so the German custom was to remove the flesh from 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:13.199 the bones before transport back home, sometimes by boiling. I 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:17.040 think we called this making a crusader bone broth in 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.720 the episode, and then you would of course take the 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.320 clean bones home to the family. Crypt Cindy's message goes 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:26.000 on this time around. I only had to take a 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.919 break once, but managed to power through the rest of 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:31.679 the episode. I can't say it was extremely enjoyable, but 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:36.359 it was very enlightening and interesting. Smiley face emoji. I 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.440 choose to be boiled in one of my favorite liquids, 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:43.359 maple syrup, if that was an option. Thanks for covering 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:45.520 all sorts of topics, even the ones that make us 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:50.560 mentally squirm. Keep up the excellent work. Cheers, Cindy. Well, 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.720 thank you so much. Cindy. Does maple syrup boil or 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:56.480 would it start to kind of like cook and caramelize? 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:58.720 It's got a lot of sugar. I don't know how 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:02.760 that works. Uh yeah, thank you, Cindy. Okay, this very 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:06.760 last message is about Weird House Cinema. It's from Andy. 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.159 Andy says Hi, Robert and Joe loved the show, and 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:17.280 as always, thank you and your excellent audio producer JJ 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:19.560 for all the work that goes into it. Your weird 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.439 house cinema episode on Flash Gordon took me back to 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:25.560 my youth, where I first saw the film on my 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:29.560 dad's pirated Betamax cassette. I hadn't watched it in probably 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:32.320 thirty years until you inspired me to seek it out again. 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:35.280 Just a few minutes in I saw a familiar face 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:40.600 which escaped your analysis. Munson, doctor Zarkov's beleaguered and rationally 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:45.120 fearful associate, was played by William Hootkins, best known as 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:49.600 Jack Porkins, hero of the Rebellion and the first casualty 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:53.400 of the audacious assault on the Death Star Trench. Though 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:56.320 I'm not happy about it, I disagreed with your reading 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:58.720 of the plane crash scene this is in Flash Gordon. 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:02.120 It seems clear to me that Munson does not escape, 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.040 and is indeed crushed to death by the airplane as 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:09.280 it crashes through his laboratory. I suppose it's his cinematic 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:14.080 penance for failing to board Doctor Zarkov's dicey homebrew rocket Flash, 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:16.280 and Dale must not have noticed him or else they'd 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.520 have been far more distraught. Doctor Zarkov, however, is so 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:22.479 consumed by his need to see his mission fulfilled that 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:25.240 he seems not to care. All in all, it seems 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:27.960 an ignominious end for one who gave his life to 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:31.159 the cause of galactic freedom. Thanks again, and keep up 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:35.240 the good work. Andy. Thank you for bringing this up. Andy. Yeah, 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:37.120 I didn't even think about the actor. Though he did 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:40.320 look familiar to me, I didn't make the connection. But 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:42.399 now that I had a chance to go back and 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.320 peek at his filmography, I realized that William Hootkins is 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:48.720 not only Porkins from the original Star Wars. He was 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:50.760 also in Raiders of the Lost Ark. In one of 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:55.080 my favorite scenes, he's one of the two Army intelligence 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:58.719 officers who sort of come to give Indy his mission 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:01.240 to retrieve the Ark or the beginning of the movie. 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:03.720 I've said this on the show before, but that scene 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.600 is so good, I think specifically from a screenwriting and 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:10.960 filmmaking point of view, it's one of the most efficient 0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:15.560 and powerful exposition scenes in movie history. So it's like 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:19.879 very short, but it quickly and convincingly tells us so 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:22.920 much about the characters, about the significance of the arc, 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:27.080