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Speaker 1: The ability to use your smartphone, use your laptop from

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Speaker 1: anywhere is huge and just cuts down one of those

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Speaker 1: otherwise hard constraints on how people work. Increasing requirements for

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Speaker 1: bandwidth and latency and a video and studies that show

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Speaker 1: that video latency has a huge effect on kind of

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Speaker 1: your interaction with co workers, That milliseconds make a difference

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Speaker 1: in being able to read people's body language in a

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Speaker 1: nonverbal communication. And you know, increasingly the Internet feels like

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Speaker 1: a true utility in the sense of peril water and

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Speaker 1: that just like nothing works when it's not there. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the restless ones. I'm Jonathan Strickland. I've spent more

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Speaker 1: than a decade really learning about technology, what makes it tick,

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Speaker 1: and then describing and explaining that to my audience. But

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Speaker 1: it's the conversations with the world's most unconventional thinkers, the

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Speaker 1: leaders at the intersection of technology and business that fascinate

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Speaker 1: me the most. In partnership with T Mobile for Business,

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Speaker 1: I explore the unique set of challenges that c t

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Speaker 1: o s and c I o s and other tech

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Speaker 1: executives face from advancements in cloud and edge computing, software

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Speaker 1: as a service, Internet of things, and of course five

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Speaker 1: g we are often left wondering how the leading minds

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Speaker 1: in business continue to thrive. Let's find out. Our guest

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Speaker 1: today is Cal Henderson, chief Technology officer of Slack. Chances

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Speaker 1: are you're familiar with Slack. The collaborative platform has proven

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Speaker 1: to be a popular tool even before the days of

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. Once the business world was forced to pivot

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Speaker 1: in the wake of COVID nineteen, Slack's role in how

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Speaker 1: many of us do our work became undeniable. I sat

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Speaker 1: down with Cal to talk about his background in software development,

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Speaker 1: how he navigated the transition from pro grammar to a

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Speaker 1: leadership role, and how he sees technology playing a part

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Speaker 1: in how we do our work in the future. Cal,

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Speaker 1: just to start off with, I want to thank you

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Speaker 1: for joining us on the Restless Ones and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the program. Thank you for having me excited to be here.

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited to have a chance to speak with you.

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Speaker 1: So can you tell us when and how you first

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Speaker 1: started to get interested in the world of technology. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was from a really young age. I grew up

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Speaker 1: in the UK um kind of in the countryside as well,

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Speaker 1: and when I was really young. I have a slightly

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Speaker 1: older cousin who got one of the first kind of

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Speaker 1: home computers, one of those things you plugged into your TV,

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Speaker 1: and it came with a basic interpret city, right, little

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Speaker 1: programs in basic and I saw this and I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is so cool. This is now my obsession. And

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Speaker 1: then a few years later I was like, in fact,

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Speaker 1: this is what I'm gonna do for the rest of

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Speaker 1: my life. I don't know that there are jobs doing this,

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Speaker 1: but this would be cool if there was a job.

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Speaker 1: And so from like a really young age, like when

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Speaker 1: a seven or something like that, I was obsessed with programming.

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Speaker 1: And at the time, obviously technology computers were very different

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Speaker 1: because it's the pre Internet era, UM, and so it

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Speaker 1: was about like making local applications, and in the like

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Speaker 1: nineties graduated to making like Windows apps. But then when

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Speaker 1: the Internet and when the Web came around, UM, that

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Speaker 1: was like opened up a whole kind of set of

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Speaker 1: possibilities because I could make something and I love just

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Speaker 1: like making software for for people, and so it was

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Speaker 1: it was like a hobby and a passion. I guess

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Speaker 1: it still is. And I just knew I wanted to

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Speaker 1: make software, and it's just like the making of stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's such a you know, kind of interesting medium. I

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Speaker 1: just love making software that other people use, especially things

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people use every day and you know,

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Speaker 1: makes their lives a bit better. Software is just software,

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Speaker 1: but it's a tool and has become increasingly important in

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Speaker 1: everybody's lives and everything everybody does, and that's just such

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Speaker 1: a cool thing to be part of it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you're extremely humble, but I would argue that obviously software

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Speaker 1: is such an intrinsic part of almost every aspect of

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Speaker 1: our lives today, whether you are conscious of it or not,

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Speaker 1: it's present in some regard. Uh, And of course the

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Speaker 1: hardware that underlies it is equally as important. That you

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Speaker 1: really got into a field that was just starting to explode,

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Speaker 1: as I would imagine that by the time you were

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Speaker 1: first programming in basic, that was probably around the same

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Speaker 1: time that a lot of people weren't really familiar with

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Speaker 1: computers on a personal level at all. They had heard

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Speaker 1: of them and they thought that's a thing that does math.

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Speaker 1: So you kind of got in right at that perfect moment,

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Speaker 1: I guess so. I think if I were older, I

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Speaker 1: think that would have been more of a struggle because

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Speaker 1: I was there or that threshold of kind of the

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Speaker 1: explosion of the web, the explosion of personal computers, and

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Speaker 1: then quite a bit later, you know, the the kind

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Speaker 1: of mobile shift, which I think has been the really

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Speaker 1: big shift there and how people think about technology. M

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it was just well time, you know, I

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Speaker 1: started my career, like, you know, a decade before Facebook

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Speaker 1: existed and kind of you know, before the dot com

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Speaker 1: boom of the of two thousand, which was just such

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Speaker 1: an exciting time for this thing that was a passion

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Speaker 1: of mine to turn into something you could make money from.

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Speaker 1: Like that wasn't my intention. Did it as a passion

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Speaker 1: because I love making stuff and it's kind of incredible

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Speaker 1: now the influence that it has on society and how

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Speaker 1: important it is in everything. But that wasn't the case

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Speaker 1: twenty five years ago. M M. Well, what what was

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Speaker 1: your first you know, professional gig in the world of

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Speaker 1: programming and software development. There was an advertising agency in

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Speaker 1: the UK and I made some websites for for brands

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Speaker 1: at that company, and it's like, this is really cool.

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Speaker 1: I got into static websites. But then it was what

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Speaker 1: if we had a community around a brand and had

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Speaker 1: of for like a forum where people could post messages

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Speaker 1: and that idea of the web as a medium where

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Speaker 1: people could talk to each other on it as well.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's had like email and Usenet and I

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Speaker 1: and things before that, but the web as a platform

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Speaker 1: for interacting with other people was really exciting to me,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's what got me on the path

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Speaker 1: kind of to wearing them today, of building things that

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Speaker 1: allowed people to interact. And I think you know that

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Speaker 1: ultimately the changes that you know have been bought about

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Speaker 1: in society by the Internet, by the advancement of technology.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of like information like available to you

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Speaker 1: now that's hugely different. And I think the really big

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Speaker 1: impact has been in and still is with the Internet

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Speaker 1: in connecting people in ways that you weren't able to before.

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Speaker 1: You know, the collapsing of geographic borders and geographic distance

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Speaker 1: and the you know, the world. The world is a

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Speaker 1: lot more accessible and people are a lot more connected

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Speaker 1: to each other than ever before. Well, and I also

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Speaker 1: love that with your story we see the transition from

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Speaker 1: what we used to call the web one point oh

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Speaker 1: model to the web two point oh. I'm curious, what

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Speaker 1: would you say was your first sort of leadership role

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Speaker 1: in in tech. Yeah, I definitely, you know, I got

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Speaker 1: into technology as I like creating stuff, not because I

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Speaker 1: wanted to be like a manager of people or a

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Speaker 1: leader or anything like that. That kind of fell into that.

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Speaker 1: So with the previous company, we've made website called earth

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Speaker 1: Flicker that was kind of at the very beginning of

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Speaker 1: web two dotto, which was photo sharing website and the

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Speaker 1: you know, we were very we started as a very

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Speaker 1: small company. We saw this as an a niche incredibly

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Speaker 1: at the time because Flicker launched in two thousand four.

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Speaker 1: It was novel the idea of putting allowing people to

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Speaker 1: put photos on a web page so other people could

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Speaker 1: see them, which sounds crazy because that wasn't even twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago, but we were just the first people that

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Speaker 1: really allowed you to do that. You know, prior to that,

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Speaker 1: there had been the introduction of a digital cameras, the

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Speaker 1: very first cell phones with cameras in them. But people

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Speaker 1: are starting to carry cameras around with them and take

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Speaker 1: a lot of photos. But really the only thing you

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Speaker 1: could do was upload them to have them printed at

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Speaker 1: a Walgreens or like have them put on a mouse

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Speaker 1: pad or on a mug. And so it's like there's

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Speaker 1: that shift of people were starting to take a lot

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Speaker 1: more photos, but there's nothing to do with them, and

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Speaker 1: we just thought, let's put them on a web page.

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Speaker 1: And we've got really lucky with the timing. I think

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Speaker 1: it was more and more people were starting to get

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Speaker 1: on the internet. More and more people were starting to

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Speaker 1: take photos and not have anything to do with them,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly it started blowing up and it was, you know,

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Speaker 1: at the time, a big phenomenon. And we sold that

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Speaker 1: in two thousand five to Yahoo, and as the company grew,

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Speaker 1: I was the head of engineering and so it became

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Speaker 1: the leader there on the engineering side, kind of by accident. Well,

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Speaker 1: what were some of the lessons you learned? I mean,

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Speaker 1: to make that transition from like purely a creative standpoint

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Speaker 1: to a leadership one, it was incredibly difficult, and I

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Speaker 1: think the reason being that all of my career and

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Speaker 1: kind of pre career up to that point, I identified

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Speaker 1: as a programmer, as a software engineer, and that's how like,

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Speaker 1: that's what I loved doing, and also how I was

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Speaker 1: kind of deriving my sense of self worth and the

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Speaker 1: transition to being in a leadership role certainly as today

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Speaker 1: where I'm not writing code anymore, not professionally, and I'm

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Speaker 1: further and further away from you know that the thing

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Speaker 1: which I enjoyed doing is really difficult to make that

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Speaker 1: shift away from how you see yourself providing value and

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Speaker 1: what it is you do and what valuable use of

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Speaker 1: time is. But the realization that is just much higher

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Speaker 1: leverage to not do that that, however good a programmer

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Speaker 1: I was, and I'm not saying I was a great

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Speaker 1: programmer by any stretch of the imagination, Like five people

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Speaker 1: are always going to be better, and ten people and

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Speaker 1: a hundred people and a thousand people are always going

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Speaker 1: to have better leverage. So you know that switch in

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Speaker 1: mindset to you know, I make things too, I'm a

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Speaker 1: multiplier on other people making things. I think is the

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Speaker 1: is the big shift, And as the team evolved over years,

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Speaker 1: that was kind of a gradual process. I'm pretty happy

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Speaker 1: with it today. I'm pretty at peace with me you

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Speaker 1: place in the world. But I think that was a

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Speaker 1: big shift, and that was the difficult for me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I imagine that's the sort of thing that you realize

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Speaker 1: more upon reflection than you do while you're actually going

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Speaker 1: through it. I think that's both true and there's an

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Speaker 1: aspect of like like having to come to terms with

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Speaker 1: it at the time, as well of like, I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be spending my time this way because it's not actually valuable.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's still a lesson at any scale

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Speaker 1: that you need to keep reminding yourself is what is

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Speaker 1: a valuable use of time versus what feels like you

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Speaker 1: could be doing right now. And I think that's often

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Speaker 1: a challenge for leaders at any scale to separate the

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Speaker 1: strategic from the tactical, because as organizations get larger, there's

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Speaker 1: a never ending stream of things you could be doing

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Speaker 1: that feel urgent and feel simple and straightforward and are

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Speaker 1: probably rewarding to do as well. They're like immediate gratification.

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Speaker 1: You get this thing done. It's done. So being able

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Speaker 1: to take a step back and think, how should I

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Speaker 1: be spending the balance of my time today, this week,

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Speaker 1: this month, What is the time that's going into our

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Speaker 1: next six months or next year, the next three or

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Speaker 1: five years versus tasks I can complete today. And I

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Speaker 1: think that in some ways, growing as a leader is

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Speaker 1: that instant cycle of understanding that you need to be

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Speaker 1: more strategic and less tactical and keep that balance correct

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Speaker 1: so I think it's a mental shift to understand that

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Speaker 1: while that feels rewarding, that isn't the thing that's going

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Speaker 1: to make you the most successful over the long term. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is this is fascinating, and we've we've kind of

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Speaker 1: bled into obviously your time at Slack. I'm curious to

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Speaker 1: hear more about when you first started working on the

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Speaker 1: thing that would become Slack and the genesis of those

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Speaker 1: ideas and how it kind of coalesced and all the

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Speaker 1: way up into the early era of Slack. Can you

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that. Yeah, So we left

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Speaker 1: Flicker in two thousand nine, so quite a while ago. Now,

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Speaker 1: with the intention of making video games. When I say

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Speaker 1: video games, lots of people think of like, you know,

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Speaker 1: Call of Duty, shooting people, competitive violent games very much,

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Speaker 1: not that we're trying to make a web based, massively

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Speaker 1: multiplayer game around kind of exploration and community and cooperation.

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Speaker 1: The fact that it's kind of hard for me to

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Speaker 1: describe it, I think is one of the challenges. The

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Speaker 1: game was called Glitch, and it had hundreds of excited players.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately at a time when we needed thousands or tens

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Speaker 1: of thousands for the scale of investment, and ultimately the

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Speaker 1: game didn't work out and we were hounded down. But

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Speaker 1: during the four years of building the game, we were

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Speaker 1: split between San Francisco, Vancouver, and New York, and we

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Speaker 1: built a set of tools to be able to work together.

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Speaker 1: And we built it on top of I r C

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Speaker 1: Internet Relay Chat, which is kind of a multi user

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Speaker 1: chat that's been around since the eighties, never very widely

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Speaker 1: used and it's long long past it's heyday. Even then

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Speaker 1: in the in the mid two thousands, and it was

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Speaker 1: very capable, but very difficult for normal humans to use.

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Speaker 1: It's like super nerdy doesn't have the ability to see

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Speaker 1: messages when you weren't online. You can't search for things,

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Speaker 1: there's a record of what happened in the past. It's

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Speaker 1: very hard to share files. And so we start of

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Speaker 1: building all of these tools and modifications on top of

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Speaker 1: C to allow us to to communicate and work better.

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Speaker 1: And it was all things built for expediency. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: the smartphone had come out semi recently. There was no

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Speaker 1: ir C client for for the iPhone at the time.

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Speaker 1: We're like, okay, let's make a web page so that

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Speaker 1: we can at least see the messages from the phone

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Speaker 1: while we're at lunch in case something happens while we're

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Speaker 1: at lunch, and much of the building kind of just

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Speaker 1: happened like that of functionality that we needed to operate,

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Speaker 1: and by the time we shut the game down, kind

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Speaker 1: of the whole business was just running on top of

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Speaker 1: this system. So every bit of business process. So if

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Speaker 1: a illustrator design something, then they'd upload the file to

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Speaker 1: pass it off to the animators and it would go

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Speaker 1: through an approval process and then be integrated into the

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Speaker 1: game asset management system, and that would all happen through

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Speaker 1: this messaging platform. And the same for like every time

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Speaker 1: somebody new signed up for the game or bought something,

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Speaker 1: that would all flow in and if we needed to

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Speaker 1: reboot a server, that would happen out of this system too.

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Speaker 1: It just became kind of the central nervous system of

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Speaker 1: the company, if you like. We also realized that we

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Speaker 1: really loved working this way and we would want to

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Speaker 1: continue to work this way whatever we were doing, and

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Speaker 1: so maybe the system that we built could be useful

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Speaker 1: to other companies like us, and at the time, we're

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Speaker 1: thinking other kind of tech oriented small companies, maybe up

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Speaker 1: to about fifty people and this would be a good

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Speaker 1: solution for them, and that's where Slack was born. That's

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Speaker 1: a fascinating story. It reminds me about a couple of

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Speaker 1: other companies that kind of started off as offshoots of

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Speaker 1: something else and then took a life of their own

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Speaker 1: and ended up eclipsing the company that spawned it. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And we started building Slack at the beginning of a year,

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Speaker 1: and after a couple of months, we started using it

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Speaker 1: does selves internally, like we switched over from our previous

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Speaker 1: system onto this system. Then we enlisted kind of our

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Speaker 1: first set of alpha testers, who were companies in San

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Speaker 1: Francisco in the Bay Area that we're friends with. Basically,

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Speaker 1: it's like went out to our friends and said, please

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Speaker 1: use this tool for your team, which at first was

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Speaker 1: a super hard proposition because for Star, you're not just

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Speaker 1: asking somebody to give it a go. You're asking somebody

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Speaker 1: to convince their team to give it a go, because

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Speaker 1: you can't use like by yourself, you need to use

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Speaker 1: it with a team of people. And secondly, we're coming

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Speaker 1: off the back of failing to make games, so we're saying, well,

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Speaker 1: we just failed at what we did, but try this

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Speaker 1: thing and get your whole company to use it, and

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Speaker 1: you know, risk your company's productivity on this thing that

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Speaker 1: we are trying to convince you is going to be successful.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that was a kind of hard proposition,

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Speaker 1: a tough sell. But we did eventually enlist some of

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Speaker 1: our friendly companies to use it, and that was such

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Speaker 1: an important, you know, kind of part of the development

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Speaker 1: of it. We went from us using it ourselves with

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Speaker 1: our idiosyncratic way of working that we're built up over

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Speaker 1: several years, to just like other normal people who who

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Speaker 1: hadn't been doing it for several years, trying to use it.

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Speaker 1: And we learned so much in that period, you know,

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Speaker 1: that really refined and shape the product over the next

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Speaker 1: few months as we got that feedback from my alpha testers.

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Speaker 1: I think that was incredibly important. And also the way

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Speaker 1: we tried to build Flicker, in the way we've tried

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Speaker 1: to build everything is with a lot of kind of

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Speaker 1: real time understanding it ourselves and how we use it,

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Speaker 1: but also a lot of kind of real time customer feedback,

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Speaker 1: spending up a huge man time talking talking to customers,

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Speaker 1: watching customers and how they use things and understand what's

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Speaker 1: what works for them and what doesn't. And I think

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Speaker 1: that that customer feedback loop is so important in you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of consumer ish products, and I think one of

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Speaker 1: the things that's really made that possible at scale in

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Speaker 1: the last decade um they think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: kind of skip over is Twitter. And the reason for that.

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Speaker 1: In the kind of pre Twitter era, if you used

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Speaker 1: some product and it was not like terrible but annoyingly bad,

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Speaker 1: there was some problem with it, it's just like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this sucks. It's possible. You might have told your friends

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Speaker 1: or your partner about that over a drink, and and

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Speaker 1: that's as far as it would go. It's not like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you had a poor experience. Normal people don't

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Speaker 1: write to customer support and say I had a poor

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Speaker 1: but not terrible experience, and here's what I think. But

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, Twitter broke down that barrier, and now

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Speaker 1: if people have a slightly annoying experience, they will get

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Speaker 1: on the internet and broadcast it, which on the one

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Speaker 1: hand is like, well that's a bit much, but on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, it's fantastic. It is free user feedback

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Speaker 1: at a level where you get user feedback even if

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Speaker 1: they're not super angry. Or super happy, you know that

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Speaker 1: big kind of area in the middle where people are

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Speaker 1: like a bit happy or a bit annoyed. We can

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Speaker 1: get thousands or tens or hundreds of thousands of bits

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Speaker 1: to use a feedback completely for free, and that drove

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Speaker 1: a lot of a kind of early design its eration

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Speaker 1: still does today. We look at every one of those

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Speaker 1: and put that into the product development process and it's

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Speaker 1: it's amazing. It's you know, it's a free, free source

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Speaker 1: of constant user feedback. It's amazing. At T Mobile for business,

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Speaker 1: unconventional thinking means we see things differently, so you can

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Speaker 1: focus on what matters most. Where some see another small town,

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Speaker 1: we see businesses in need of connectivity. So we built

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Speaker 1: the largest five G network to cover cities, towns, and

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Speaker 1: the most interstate miles in between. Where some see a

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Speaker 1: caller in a queue, we see an opportunity for our

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Speaker 1: experts to provide solutions without transfers. Where some see another

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Speaker 1: virtual meeting, we see five G enabling wireless real time

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Speaker 1: translations almost anywhere you do business. Our unique approach built

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Speaker 1: America's largest, fastest five G network and also delivers exceptional

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Speaker 1: customer support and five G included in every plan, so

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Speaker 1: you get it all without trade offs. Unconventional thinking is

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Speaker 1: better for business. T Mobile for Business fastest five G

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Speaker 1: based on average overall combined five G speeds according to

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Speaker 1: Open Signal Awards USA five G User Experience Report October.

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Speaker 1: See five G device coverage and access details at to

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Speaker 1: mobile dot com. So you're getting user feedback, you're refining

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Speaker 1: the product, your learning what are the most common use cases,

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Speaker 1: things that might not have even applied in your in

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Speaker 1: your more idiosyncratic approach. At what point in the process

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Speaker 1: was it clear that you had really hit on something.

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Speaker 1: I think, on the one hand, I could say at

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Speaker 1: the point at which we we switched to our kind

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Speaker 1: of open beta, we allowed anybody to sign up and

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Speaker 1: start using Slack, and we kind of overnight had I

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Speaker 1: think it was something like eight thousand people sign up

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Speaker 1: to try it for their companies. It's like, whoa, that's okay,

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Speaker 1: we have something here. There's a buzz around it. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, that was, you know, especially compared

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Speaker 1: to years later, it was a very small scale. So

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Speaker 1: it's like, okay, we think there's a product here, we

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Speaker 1: think this can turn into a business. But then over

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Speaker 1: the kind of next few years, it was a constant,

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Speaker 1: steady increment. Because it was slow and constant, there wasn't

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Speaker 1: that cliff moment of like, Wow, this is getting really

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Speaker 1: big or this is going to be really successful. It

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Speaker 1: was just getting a bit more successful every day, and

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Speaker 1: so we didn't really feel it. I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you then go back and look at the stats

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Speaker 1: at how it changed from kind of over the course

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Speaker 1: of six months or over a year, it looks stark,

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Speaker 1: But at the time we're in it, we were just

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Speaker 1: in it and it and it was growing around us.

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, much like the success we

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Speaker 1: had with Flicker was is very attributable to being timing

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Speaker 1: it right with a lot of kind of extrinsic factors

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Speaker 1: that were just happening in the world. I think the

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Speaker 1: same thing happened with Slack. It has been the combination

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Speaker 1: of the kind of rise of consumer messaging. You know,

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Speaker 1: people made the switch from you don't email your friends anymore,

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Speaker 1: use WhatsApp or use eye message, and also the rise

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Speaker 1: of mobile being an actually important part of people's working lives.

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Speaker 1: It seems crazy, but back when we started Slack, people

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Speaker 1: didn't really use phones for work very much. You know,

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Speaker 1: there was like the the pre smartphone BlackBerry crowd with

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Speaker 1: their email, but that wasn't that many people. But now,

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Speaker 1: you know, phone is really essential part of your kind

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Speaker 1: of work, you know, software experience, and the shift to

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Speaker 1: the cloud, which I think is also one of those

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Speaker 1: things that just feels like it's been there forever now.

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Speaker 1: But the idea that you know, companies you would use

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Speaker 1: software hosted in the cloud is relatively new thing, especially

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Speaker 1: at the scale that it's at today. And I think

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Speaker 1: all of those things came together for something like Slack

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Speaker 1: to be inevitable just at the time we did it.

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Speaker 1: You know, if we've done it earlier, it would have

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Speaker 1: been too early. If we've done it later, somebody else

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Speaker 1: would have done it. So I think we've really lucked

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Speaker 1: into the timing, the kind of confluence of all of

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Speaker 1: those factors happening around the same time. Well, apart from Glitch,

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Speaker 1: I'm definitely sensing an ongoing theme of being at the

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Speaker 1: right place at the right time for some of these

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Speaker 1: I wanted to get more insight into what Cal's job

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Speaker 1: actually entails, as well as learn more about Slack's evolution

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Speaker 1: over the last few years. Yeah, so as a CTO.

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Speaker 1: I run our engineering organization, which is you know, a good,

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Speaker 1: good chunk of the company. Together with our chief product officer,

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Speaker 1: we make up the kind of R and D side

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Speaker 1: of the business um and I'd say like the primary

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Speaker 1: responsibility is Slack as a service that has to keep

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Speaker 1: running seven th six to five days a year. It's

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Speaker 1: a piece of infrastructure and people just expect it to

434
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 1: work when you you know, when your company organization runs

435
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,880
Speaker 1: on Slack. If Slack is not working, then work stops,

436
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: especially in the you know, last year and a half,

437
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 1: as more and more companies are fully distributed, people are

438
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 1: working from home. It's a utility to people. So a

439
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: lot of the responsibility in general at Slack is around

440
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 1: we have to keep that working, keep that going the

441
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 1: whole time. But then on top of that, how do

442
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 1: we evolve that service to be able to offer it

443
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: to more and more people, whether that's in kind of

444
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: regulated industries with special compliance requirements. You know, building software

445
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 1: for small companies is very different from building software for

446
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 1: large banks or for healthcare providers or things of that nature.

447
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,719
Speaker 1: And so it's a lot about how can we evolve

448
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: the product, add new features and capabilities while still you know,

449
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: maintaining reliability, security, compliance, all that kind of stuff. I think,

450
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, the evolution over the last couple of years,

451
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: you know, with the pandemic. Seconds tool was obviously used

452
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: by a lot of companies, like in the office prior

453
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 1: to the pandemic, but I think this gave us a

454
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 1: really unique opportunity to be able to try and convince

455
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: more organizations that there are different ways to work that

456
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: you know, you we can build a set of tools

457
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: that allows you to you know, work in a distributed

458
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: manner without just duplicating how people worked when they're in

459
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 1: the office. I think big trend that we saw and

460
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 1: that we did ourselves was that at the beginning of

461
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 1: the pandemic, we wanted just take all of the ways

462
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 1: in which we worked in an office and lift them

463
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: up and put them on the internet, you know, And

464
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 1: that's you know, the massive success of zoom um has

465
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 1: been how can we take those meetings and just do

466
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 1: the same meetings go over the internet. And I think

467
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 1: that was good because it allowed companies to continue to operate.

468
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: But I think as the pandemic progress, what we're looking

469
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: at was how can we build processes and tools and

470
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: capabilities that allow people to approach work differently and make

471
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: the most of being in this distribute environment. So two

472
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: of the things which we launched recently things like huddles

473
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: in Slack, which is kind of always on voice chat

474
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 1: to allow you to transition from kind of messaging to

475
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: talking live back to messaging, have that all be searchable

476
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: in the same way, and many of our customers are

477
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: finding that's a really good alternative to scheduled meetings, So

478
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot of that. And then more recently

479
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: we launched a set of capabilities we call clips for

480
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 1: being able to record video or audio messages really easily

481
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: and then share those in the context of channels as well,

482
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: so that you know, can replace some kinds of stands

483
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: up and stand up and status meetings by having everybody

484
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: record little videos or easily doing kind of design presentations

485
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 1: within your team, things like that. So I think the

486
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: you know, it is still really a kind of fertile

487
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: ground for what are the tools that we need right

488
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: now and what are the tools that organization is going

489
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: to need over the next couple of years, because it

490
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 1: is just operating in such a different environment now and

491
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: that's going to change again as as companies are able

492
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 1: to open their offices back up mm hmm. And I

493
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: know that there are a lot of companies out there

494
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: that have sort of, at least for the foreseeable future,

495
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 1: planned out almost a hybrid approach to work. And to

496
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: your point, I don't think any of that would have

497
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: been possible, maybe even as recently as five years ago,

498
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: without the developments we've seen in the cloud space, in

499
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: the fact that we're seeing connectivity extend wirelessly which enables

500
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: all of the mobility. Uh, all of these pieces needed

501
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: to come into place for this to be possible, or

502
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: I think we would be in pretty dire straits when

503
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: it comes to our response to life during the pandemic. Yeah,

504
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely true. I think it was a

505
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: surprise to many organizations that it was possible for people

506
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: to kind of really overnight switch to everybody being remote

507
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: and business just continued. And I think that it's the

508
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: technology has come a long way really recently and enabled

509
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: it to be possible. And I think now people see

510
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: that it's possible, see the advantages, and a huge number

511
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: of people, the vast majority, really enjoy the flexibility that

512
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: they've been able to have over the last year and

513
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: a half. So while we will see a whole bunch

514
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: of returns of the office, and some organizations, you know,

515
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: like large banks, have said everybody's going to be back

516
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: in the office every day, it's going to be exactly

517
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: back to how it was. I think that's going to

518
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 1: be the kind of margin case because so many people

519
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: have seen it's possible for them to be productive, so

520
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: of course they're going to continue to work as they will,

521
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: and the office is still going to exist for the

522
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: majority of companies, it's going to be just such a

523
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: different experience. It's no longer going to be the place

524
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: where most people go every day to sit at an

525
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: individual desk and do individual work. It's going to be

526
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 1: a place where you go to do collaborative work, to

527
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: meet people, and that you don't go into every day.

528
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: I was curious to find out what cal thought about

529
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: emerging technologies, and I was surprised to discover that this

530
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: lover of speculative fiction has a pretty grounded approach toward futurism.

531
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: I came across a great story about uh some some

532
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: folks who essentially hacked a system to utilize Slack as

533
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: a user interface or back end to some Internet of

534
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: Things applications. Specifically, they had it so that they could

535
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: use a command in Slack to UH to turn on

536
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: a light outside of a meeting room to let people

537
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: know that the meeting room was in use. And as

538
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: someone who podcasts, I mean, we have the same sort

539
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: of kind of set up here. The thought of having

540
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: that so that I don't have to get up and

541
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: turn on a physical switch that appeals to me. But

542
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: beyond that, it just it opens up this idea of

543
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 1: of the creative and the hacker and the finding ways

544
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: to utilize systems to do things that perhaps even the

545
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: creators of those systems had not originally intended. Do you

546
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: kind of feel an affinity for that sort of hacker

547
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: ethos the idea of this is really cool what it does.

548
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: Let's see what happens if we try to make it

549
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: do this other thing. Absolutely, I think that's kind of

550
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: a key part of what we wanted to design into

551
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: Slack from the beginning, honestly, is the idea that there's

552
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: more and more software tools, more and more automation that

553
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: we use in our lives. You know, the kind of

554
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: the average number of like bits of SASS used by

555
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, medium sized enterprise company is now like a

556
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 1: couple of thousand, which is sounds crazy, but there's more

557
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: and more bits of software for more and more kind

558
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,479
Speaker 1: of niche roles. And that's both off the shelf software

559
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: but also you know, any any company at scale, what

560
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: is it? Mark and recent said every company is a

561
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: software company at a certain scale because you have to

562
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 1: build tools for what you're doing. UM, you know, specific

563
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: to to what you're doing, specific to the challenges you

564
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: have as an organization. And so I think one of

565
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: the really important things is, you know, Slack is orientered

566
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: around having a very open platform that anybody can be

567
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: all done. That is, whatever piece of software you're using

568
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: or whatever you're building, you can get data inter Slack,

569
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: and you can get data outer Slack, and you know,

570
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: command things like this. UM we've seen lots of really

571
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: interesting things from our customers. Who ever, a customer in

572
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: Japan who added kind of toilet door sensors to all

573
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: of their bathrooms so that they could know in Slack

574
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: if the bathroom was free, because it was on a

575
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: different floor and they didn't want to have to walk

576
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: all the way down there to know if the door

577
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: was locked. UM, and you know or you know, we

578
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: have customers who do things more related to their business

579
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: out in the fields, you know, so like vehicle fleet

580
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: that they manage can report in through Slack and things

581
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: like that, and Slack as an open platform on which

582
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: people can build things which we could never have imagined

583
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: and also things which didn't exist when we built Slack. Right,

584
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: there's new new technologies being developed constantly, and I think

585
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: that the you know, technologies products that are successful over

586
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: the next five to ten years are going to be

587
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: ones which allow you to work with other bits of

588
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: software and so, you know, in this phase of technology cycle,

589
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: it's how can you tie more things together and how

590
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: can you bring information and data into one place to

591
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: how you synthesize it all well. And I think that

592
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: philosophy also taps into something that is really important in

593
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: the open source world, which is that you can have

594
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: the smartest people in your organization all working together to

595
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: create stuff, but that collective intelligence is still a drop

596
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: in the ocean when you open it up to everyone

597
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: and you get all these ideas that you could not

598
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: have possibly come up with with the group of people

599
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: you've assembled, as well as the fact that you know

600
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: you've enabled someone else to succeed in whatever it was

601
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: they were doing. And I really like that that ethos.

602
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: One of the things that's our favorite topic to talk

603
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: about here on the Restless Ones is the rollout and

604
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: implementation of five G technologies. What role do you see

605
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: five G playing in the future of of work? I

606
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: think the kind of general availability of ubiquitous connection to

607
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: the Internet has changed how people think about location of

608
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: where they were. One of the factors that's played into

609
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: how things have gone over the last year and a

610
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: half is just the ability for it to happen. The

611
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: ability to you know, use your smartphone, use your laptop

612
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: from anywhere is huge and just cuts down one of

613
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: those otherwise hard constraints on how people work. Increasing requirements

614
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: for bandwidth and latency, you know, video and studies that

615
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: show that video latency has a huge effect on kind

616
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: of your interaction with co workers, That milliseconds make a

617
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: difference in being able to read people's body language in

618
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: a nonverbal communication, and so it is kind of default assumption.

619
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: It is the substrate that other things are built on

620
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: that just needs to to work all the time. And

621
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: you know, increasingly the Internet feels like a true utility

622
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: in the sense of parrel water and that just like

623
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: nothing works when it's not there. The idea of having

624
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: sort of a like a fiber level connection potentially without

625
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: having to actually have the fiber that is such a

626
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: freeing experience. Especially in a world where remote and mobile work,

627
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: We're going to see more solutions geared towards that future

628
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: hybrid work space. I think that are is going to

629
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: be increasingly reliant upon things like like high speed wireless

630
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: connections because that's what reality is requiring. I couldn't let

631
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: Cal go without asking him one more thing, what is

632
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: your favorite science fiction novel? Oh? That's a good one, Okay.

633
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: I would say my favorite science fiction novel is not

634
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: a super well known one. Um, it's a bit called

635
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: The Golden Age by John C. Wright. I think it

636
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: was from like two thousand one something like that, and

637
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: it just presents a view of the future that is

638
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: really quite different to how we live now. I think

639
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: a lot of my I love science fation. I read

640
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: a huge amount of it, and I think a lot

641
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: of it isn't too different to how the world is

642
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: and doesn't think big enough in terms of how society

643
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: everything about how the science interacts changes as technology advances,

644
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: so I think it still holds up and as people

645
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: to give it a read. Cal, thank you so much

646
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: for joining us. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you

647
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: so much for having me. It's been great. It really

648
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: is remarkable how technology enabled many organizations to adjust to

649
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: an entirely new approach to getting work done, and as

650
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: Cal pointed out, the future of work promises to include

651
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: at least some of the elements we've become accustomed to

652
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Speaker 1: during the pandemic. Knowing that there are companies that take

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Speaker 1: this notion as a starting point is actually really exciting.

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Speaker 1: I expect we're going to see some incredible innovation when

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Speaker 1: it comes to how we work and remain productive, and

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00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: how we derive value and satisfaction from our work, whether

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Speaker 1: we are headed into a crowded office or setting up

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Speaker 1: a temporary workstation on a beach somewhere. As broadband access grows,

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00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: reaching into communities and reads that previously had limited access

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00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: to such things, the constraints on how we do work disappear,

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00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: and this opens up new opportunities for us, creating new

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Speaker 1: ways to do business, encouraging new forms of innovation. It

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Speaker 1: starts to sound like one of those optimistic takes on

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Speaker 1: science fiction, only it's becoming reality. And it's only possible

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Speaker 1: because we have this amazing convergence of technologies like cloud computing,

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Speaker 1: the Internet of Things, and wireless five G connectivity. Make

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Speaker 1: sure to come back to the Restless Ones to hear

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Speaker 1: more conversations with pioneers in tech and leadership. I'm Jonathan

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Speaker 1: Strickland at T Mobile. For business, unconventional thinking means we

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Speaker 1: see things differently so you can focus on what matters most.

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Speaker 1: That's why we've built America's largest, fastest five G network

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00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: while remaining a partner who delivers exceptional customer support and

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00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: five G included in every plan so you get it all.

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Speaker 1: Unconventional thinking is better for business. Fastest five G based

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00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: on average overall combined five G speeds according to Open

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00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: Signal Awards USA five G User Experience Report October one.

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00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: See five D device coverage and access details at T

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Speaker 1: mobile dot com