Speaker 1: Welcome to River Cafe, Table four, a production of iHeartRadio
Speaker 1: and Adamized Studios.
Speaker 2: There are actors who write, producers who direct, and cooks
Speaker 2: who campaign for social change. Stanley Tucci does all of these.
Speaker 2: He writes, cookbooks, creates and hosts a beautiful TV series
Speaker 2: about Italy, and acts and directs movies that touch us all.
Speaker 2: Stanley Tucci is respected and admired by every chef in
Speaker 2: the River Cafe, especially me.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Ruthie, that's so nice. Now can I
Speaker 3: leave now?
Speaker 4: Okay, Barchi c.
Speaker 2: So what we can do is, would you please read
Speaker 2: the recipe that you've chosen.
Speaker 3: Meze pacari cachoi pepe with langustines. Serve six six hundred
Speaker 3: grams medze pacheti pasta, sixty grams unsalted butter, one hundred
Speaker 3: and fifty grams pecorino freshly grated, four hundred grams medium languestines, cooked,
Speaker 3: peeled and cut into pieces. Cook the pasta in plenty
Speaker 3: of water until al dente. When draining the pasta, reserve
Speaker 3: some of the cooking water for the sauce. Melt the
Speaker 3: butter with the pecorino in a large pan over a
Speaker 3: low heat adding some of the pasta water to create
Speaker 3: a sauce. Add the languestines to the pecorino sauce with
Speaker 3: black pepper, Add the hot pasta and mix until you
Speaker 3: have a glossy sauce coating the pasta, adding more pasta
Speaker 3: water if needed. Serve with extra pecora grated on top.
Speaker 3: And it's also incredibly delicious. I just ate it.
Speaker 2: So of all the recipes and all the cookbooks, and
Speaker 2: you eat here a lot, and you're a cook, what
Speaker 2: made you choose this recipes?
Speaker 4: Well, lots of reasons.
Speaker 3: One is that, as you say, you broke a rule,
Speaker 3: which is you don't really put cheese with seafood in Italy.
Speaker 4: I love pasta.
Speaker 3: I eat pasta practically every day, sometimes twice a day.
Speaker 3: I love languesteine, I love pecorino. Just made sense. It's
Speaker 3: a gorgeous recipe.
Speaker 4: Very few ingredients, very few ingredients.
Speaker 3: But like most Italian cooking, it's incredibly few ingredients. I
Speaker 3: sometimes feel guilty that I'm using the same thing, but
Speaker 3: then when I look through cookbooks, I'm like, it's still
Speaker 3: the same. It's all the same thing, but the iterations,
Speaker 3: you know, the variations are extraordinary. Yeah, So your grandparents
Speaker 3: came from My grandparents came from Columbria both sides.
Speaker 2: Were they together before they came or did they meet?
Speaker 3: No, No, they met because they came. My mother's mother
Speaker 3: was three when she came to America, but her my
Speaker 3: mother's father was in his mid twenties when he came.
Speaker 3: They were about thirteen years apart an age or something
Speaker 3: when they got married. I think she was sixteen or
Speaker 3: seventeen when she got married. And my dad's father came
Speaker 3: over in the early part of the first century and
Speaker 3: his wife I think was maybe already here at that time,
Speaker 3: and then they met.
Speaker 4: And got married.
Speaker 3: But you know, with the Italians, a lot of town's,
Speaker 3: entire towns would basically move to the same area, to
Speaker 3: the same area. It's one of the things we talked
Speaker 3: about in the show. We did an episode on London
Speaker 3: because there are so many Italians in London, and Angela
Speaker 3: Hartnett did the show. She's half Welsh, half Italian or
Speaker 3: you know, but her family came from Bardie and over
Speaker 3: eighty percent or ninety percent of the Welsh Italians came
Speaker 3: from that one town.
Speaker 4: So they would just all move.
Speaker 3: And the same in America too, because one guy moves over,
Speaker 3: and then he brings his friend comes over and they're
Speaker 3: getting work, and they bring their family over, and.
Speaker 4: It just keeps and so.
Speaker 2: Growing up with your grandparents, were they involved in the
Speaker 2: food that you ate?
Speaker 4: Did you?
Speaker 3: We saw them every just about every week, we'd go
Speaker 3: to visit them. And my maternal grandparents had this incredible
Speaker 3: garden where they seemed to be able to grow anything
Speaker 3: anytime of the year.
Speaker 4: My grandfather had.
Speaker 3: A fig tree, beautiful fig tree. No this was in
Speaker 3: peak skill, but not for peak. They would take the
Speaker 3: fig tree and in the winter they would wrap the
Speaker 3: tree in plastic so that it would endure the winter.
Speaker 2: When I talk to people about who've immigrated from another country,
Speaker 2: they often talk more about the food of their grandparents
Speaker 2: than their parents, because that's my experience as well, coming
Speaker 2: from a Jewish immigrant family from Russia and Hungary. My grandparents,
Speaker 2: I really remember their food. I don't think they really
Speaker 2: mastered English much less the cooking of the United States,
Speaker 2: where my mother, you know, adapted, and probably we as
Speaker 2: children rejected anything but American food. And I think when
Speaker 2: you talk to people, it's interesting how the grandmother features
Speaker 2: is that or did your mother and father still have
Speaker 2: a very strong sense of Italy.
Speaker 3: Oh, yes, very much so. I mean they didn't speak Italian.
Speaker 3: My father could speak a bit of Italian and they
Speaker 3: could understand dialect, and because that's what you know, both
Speaker 3: their parents spoke. But my mother swears to this day,
Speaker 3: and my father told me that he goes your mother
Speaker 3: couldn't cook. I met her and I was like, what
Speaker 3: are you talking about this? I don't believe that story.
Speaker 3: He said, no, Stanley, it actually is true. And my
Speaker 3: mother admits it that her mother was a brilliant cook. Obviously,
Speaker 3: my mother had this innate talent as well, and her
Speaker 3: cooking today, still today is some of the best food
Speaker 3: I've ever had. She's at my house now.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 4: It's really disappointed, I know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't say I was disappointed to see you,
Speaker 2: because I was disappointed that I didn't see them.
Speaker 4: You want to see my parents.
Speaker 2: I love meeting parents. I love meeting the parents.
Speaker 3: They're really great and they're really extraordinary. Like my mom
Speaker 3: made a thing the other day that was just you know.
Speaker 4: What she bess charged, Yeah, just what does she do?
Speaker 3: She little boiling of it and then a little bit
Speaker 3: of fresh tomato olive oil and a hint of garlic.
Speaker 3: It was just one of the greatest things I've ever eaten.
Speaker 3: And I said, well, how did you do that? I
Speaker 3: try to do that, I can't do it.
Speaker 2: I was born in Upstate, New York and you were
Speaker 2: born not far away. My family were not a time
Speaker 2: yours were. But the food that we grew up with
Speaker 2: thinking was as we knew it was Italian food. Would
Speaker 2: you say that was radically changed from when you actually
Speaker 2: went to Italy?
Speaker 3: And you know, yeah, I mean because I grew up
Speaker 3: eating my family food because they were from Italy, So yeah,
Speaker 3: there were, without question, there were similarities. But when I
Speaker 3: would go to friends' houses and have what they thought
Speaker 3: was Italian food, it was horrifying. I mean it was
Speaker 3: just bad, you know, because the ingredients were lousy and
Speaker 3: they didn't really understand it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for us, and I, you know, I grew up
Speaker 2: with meatballs and spaghetti and an egg plot parmesana and
Speaker 2: you know, and it just was heavy and it was rich,
Speaker 2: and it was that version of it.
Speaker 3: A lot of that Italian American food came out of
Speaker 3: of suddenly having access to large amounts of meat, having
Speaker 3: access to more so more was added, right, More sauce
Speaker 3: was added because the Italians don't put a lot of
Speaker 3: sauce really on pasta use a minimal amount for the
Speaker 3: most part, whereas in America things are loaded with sauce
Speaker 3: or loaded with cheese, or loaded with meat. And it
Speaker 3: was about, you know, it was a land of plenty.
Speaker 3: And also I think they were, you know, catering to
Speaker 3: American tastes.
Speaker 4: When did you.
Speaker 2: Start eating in restaurants? Do you remember when that kind
Speaker 2: of happened?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I started eating in restaurants when I no longer had
Speaker 3: to work in them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: As an actor, it's kind of what you did to
Speaker 3: make money, But working in them gave me a tremendous
Speaker 3: ciation for them. And then finally when I had a
Speaker 3: little bit of money and I could start going to restaurants,
Speaker 3: I really got excited about it because I all knew
Speaker 3: what was going on behind the scenes, and that was
Speaker 3: sort of part of the genesis A Big Night, which
Speaker 3: was it's almost thirty years ago now, that movie. I
Speaker 3: wanted to write a story about the struggle between commerce
Speaker 3: and art, but you can't really do that with a
Speaker 3: painter because that is literally like watching paint dry, but
Speaker 3: you could use the chef as artist. And also I
Speaker 3: like the idea of not the idea the actuality that
Speaker 3: you have off stage and you have on stage in
Speaker 3: a restaurant just like the theater.
Speaker 4: And I love that.
Speaker 2: I love that too. And there were many scenes that
Speaker 2: you stay in my mind forever. But interestingly enough, one
Speaker 2: of my favorites is the very first scene where you
Speaker 2: come out of the out of the front door having
Speaker 2: been inside, and isn't there a pot with plants in it?
Speaker 2: And you move it a centimeter, you know, and I
Speaker 2: just thought, God, that reminds me of me. I mean
Speaker 2: it really, it really did remind me of the way
Speaker 2: that sometimes before service I walk out to the car
Speaker 2: park and then I walk in, you know, just just
Speaker 2: to look at the restaurant and just walk through that space,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: I think that's that's really important, the idea of space.
Speaker 3: A space is crucial in film. So if you try
Speaker 3: to make a food movie and you just show beautiful
Speaker 3: shots of food, it's of no consequence if you show
Speaker 3: the thing that makes is we actually look at the
Speaker 3: food in Big Night, it doesn't look very good. What
Speaker 3: makes it work is the people's reaction to the food,
Speaker 3: and then the fact that we're seeing them in that space,
Speaker 3: so you know you were married to an architect.
Speaker 4: Space is everything.
Speaker 3: It's one of the reasons your restaurant works so beautifully,
Speaker 3: because the space envelops you but also opens you up.
Speaker 5: I'm George.
Speaker 4: I'm a chef at the River Cafe.
Speaker 5: It's a pleasure to meet you, Stanley. Your show is
Speaker 5: amazing and I've watched it fully twice. We're very lucky
Speaker 5: to be able to cook for some amazing people in
Speaker 5: this restaurant, and we get tickets come through with people's names.
Speaker 5: But probably the most exciting time a ticket came through
Speaker 5: with your name on it was when I had to
Speaker 5: make you a artichoke. Judea and I had literally the
Speaker 5: night before watched the episode in which you make them.
Speaker 4: The real episode, the right episode.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and so I fell under a huge amount of pressure.
Speaker 5: So I actually got our head chef, Danny over and
Speaker 5: and made him do it with me from beginning to end.
Speaker 4: Really. Yeah, absolutely, But I had those that wasn't that
Speaker 4: long ago, No, it was recently, right, Yeah, I just
Speaker 4: had them here.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was maybe maybe a month or so ago.
Speaker 4: It was delicious. Oh, thank you, No, it was great.
Speaker 4: I'm glad you liked the show. That's really that's great.
Speaker 3: You know, obviously you know what you're doing, and the
Speaker 3: fact that you like the show, that you appreciated, that's
Speaker 3: that's wonderful.
Speaker 2: Tell me about the series.
Speaker 3: What an idea that I had for a long time.
Speaker 3: I think it's probably about thirteen fifteen years ago that
Speaker 3: I had this idea and that you'd go through every
Speaker 3: region and you'd break down that region through the food,
Speaker 3: but relate it to or how how does the food
Speaker 3: relate to politics, to socioeconomics, to topography, to history, to
Speaker 3: art to whatever. And I kept thinking. I wrote some
Speaker 3: notes about it, and then CNN came to me and
Speaker 3: they said, do you have any ideas for a show?
Speaker 3: I gave them three ideas. One was about refugees and
Speaker 3: food and there sort of one like I don't think so.
Speaker 3: And then one was documented about cancer because my wife died,
Speaker 3: my first wife died of cancer. I had just gone
Speaker 3: through cancer treatments. I had so many friends who you know,
Speaker 3: and we know it's basically, you know, an epidemic, you know.
Speaker 3: So those two ideas they didn't care for. And then
Speaker 3: I said, well, I have this idea about Italy and
Speaker 3: you know, going through every region and breaking it down
Speaker 3: as I said, and they went, okay, okay, no one
Speaker 3: had really done it before that we didn't know. I
Speaker 3: think that a lot of people don't know. I think
Speaker 3: a lot of Americans don't know. Italy isn't just pizza
Speaker 3: and pasta, and it isn't sunny all the time, and
Speaker 3: not everybody's happy and hugging each other all the time,
Speaker 3: and not everyone's a mafioso. There are these two sort
Speaker 3: of polarities that Americans see, and I wanted to hope,
Speaker 3: I hope to She did dispel those.
Speaker 2: And also inform us about the region, the serious regionality.
Speaker 2: I mean, I do think probably in the north of
Speaker 2: France very differently than you read in Provence, and that
Speaker 2: in Greece probably on heedraw you would eat differently than
Speaker 2: in Athen's. But in Italy it's very very regional, fiercely so.
Speaker 2: And as I think, I told you the other day
Speaker 2: that we had met somebody who'd never had tomato sauce
Speaker 2: until she was fourteen, that's.
Speaker 4: Right, and she lived non Italy.
Speaker 2: So the image and I think that's what you've done,
Speaker 2: you know what is your next?
Speaker 3: We're going next to Pulia and Calabria, and my parents
Speaker 3: are going to come with me to Columbia.
Speaker 2: In the film.
Speaker 4: Yeah good, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: And then we do Liguria and Sardinia, and then we
Speaker 3: do a feast where everyone comes together, so all the chefs,
Speaker 3: not all the chefs. We take a person from each region.
Speaker 2: So how many would that be.
Speaker 4: It'll be a.
Speaker 3: Total of about Well, we'll have done thirteen regions. We're
Speaker 3: not doing all twenty regions. You can't do all twenty regions,
Speaker 3: but we're doing thirteen, so we'll have thirteen different chefs
Speaker 3: or cooks come or a Vintnor, two ventnors. So it'll
Speaker 3: be some sort of place that has a substantial kitchen,
Speaker 3: lots of outdoor space. I want to have or build
Speaker 3: three different outdoor fires, so somebody can do a goat
Speaker 3: or whatever on a spit, somebody can grill something, and
Speaker 3: somebody can bake something in a wood fire oven, and
Speaker 3: then a proper restaurant kitchen, and it'll all be at
Speaker 3: one long table and everyone they'll all cook for each other.
Speaker 3: They each have a course and they'll cook each each
Speaker 3: course in essence, so you know, you know, we might
Speaker 3: actually do We're going to do probably four different kinds
Speaker 3: of pasta and you the guests can choose what they
Speaker 3: want if there if they want to have all four
Speaker 3: of the guests, you know, the guests, they are the guests,
Speaker 3: I see, So they cook for each other. But there
Speaker 3: are a few other people that were taking from the
Speaker 3: shows as well, who were who were contributors.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: So the idea is that you unite Italy at the table,
Speaker 3: because the whole thing is called searching for Italy. But really,
Speaker 3: in the end, what I realized was that Italy doesn't exist.
Speaker 3: It only exists at the table. That's where Italy is.
Speaker 2: Have you done kind of deals in a restaurant? Michael
Speaker 2: Caine said that in the old days, you would never
Speaker 2: sign up for a movie unless it was in a restaurant.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that exists anymore.
Speaker 3: I have had that happen, But no, I think that
Speaker 3: might be a more British thing than an American thing.
Speaker 2: Oh here what he was saying, it was Hollywood, it
Speaker 2: was old time home. Oh really, was there a restaurant
Speaker 2: called Chasen's or something? Oh, you would go to and
Speaker 2: you know, but then I asked younger people. They said, no, no,
Speaker 2: it's not like to do it on zoom.
Speaker 3: I do remember going to Hollywood though the first time,
Speaker 3: you know, it was thirty four, you know, thirty six
Speaker 3: years ago, and.
Speaker 4: I hated it right away.
Speaker 3: But everyone was going out to lunch all the time,
Speaker 3: but they weren't really eating or drinking. The whole thing
Speaker 3: was weird to me. I was like, well, why are
Speaker 3: we at lunch? That's the point Richard.
Speaker 2: Once but we were taken by an architect, Philip Johnson
Speaker 2: to the Four Seasons in New York, and we walked
Speaker 2: in and we thought, wow, you saw you know, the
Speaker 2: great people of leaders of society and profession, and everybody
Speaker 2: was having cottage. She's a nice tea. It was iced tea,
Speaker 2: and Richard ordered a glass of wine and they really
Speaker 2: thought he was an alcoholic. Yeah, it was just not done'
Speaker 2: la too.
Speaker 3: Also la people are driving too. Maybe not so much
Speaker 3: anymore with uber and all that, but but yeah, it
Speaker 3: just wasn't and it was. I found it just incredibly cold,
Speaker 3: and although there are some amazing restaurants, but it wasn't
Speaker 3: just not It's.
Speaker 2: Also quite revealing how person behaves in a restaurant. I
Speaker 2: always used to say in the early days of having
Speaker 2: a restaurant that you could tell a lot of Americans
Speaker 2: in the River Cafe had at one time in their
Speaker 2: life worked in a restaurant because they were nice. They
Speaker 2: were just they They are not saying the British weren't nice.
Speaker 2: But having worked in a restaurant, it does make you
Speaker 2: more tolerant, don't you think you know.
Speaker 3: Without question what it's like. Yeah, you have to know
Speaker 3: how hard that is. Yeah, I think particularly in America too,
Speaker 3: because the pay is so bad and you're relying on
Speaker 3: your tips and it's really really hard work. Having worked
Speaker 3: as a bus boy and a bartender, and you know.
Speaker 2: We think about food and hunger, and it's also mental health,
Speaker 2: and it's also physical health. And we in times of pain,
Speaker 2: we in times of discomfort. And you refer just now
Speaker 2: to the fact that you had cancer and that your
Speaker 2: wife died of cancer. How did you see illness and
Speaker 2: how did illness affect your attitude or your food for you?
Speaker 3: But I think when anybody's sick, even if it's just
Speaker 3: a cold or flu, you instantly say, do let me
Speaker 3: make atriction soup. Right, it's the first thing you know
Speaker 3: you do or I'll always say do you do you
Speaker 3: want this? Are you feeling hungry? Are you feeling why
Speaker 3: does your stomach urt? Do you want this? And sometimes
Speaker 3: it's a test too if they go the kid in particular.
Speaker 4: Would go no, I don't. I don't want that.
Speaker 3: I don't And then you know something's really wrong. You know,
Speaker 3: you go, would you like a chocolate? You know, they go, no,
Speaker 3: I don't want a chocolate. You go, okay, let's go
Speaker 3: to the doctor. Or so you know, but I think
Speaker 3: it was you know, in the end, well, Kate went
Speaker 3: through so many different treatments, and you know, going through
Speaker 3: chemo and radiation and all that stuff made her very
Speaker 3: nauseous and she couldn't eat a lot at times, and
Speaker 3: then she would recover and then cancer would present itself
Speaker 3: again and then she'd go through the process again.
Speaker 4: It was horrible.
Speaker 3: When I went through mine because it was an oral cancer.
Speaker 3: All the treatment was focused on my mouth, so I
Speaker 3: lost everything. You don't only lose your sense of taste.
Speaker 3: Your sense taste is destroyed and perverted so that everything
Speaker 3: tastes like you know what for months and plus your
Speaker 3: mouth is so compromised and so much pain. You're on
Speaker 3: pain medications and all that stuff, and you have a
Speaker 3: feeding tube. You're trying to put protein drinks through your
Speaker 3: feeding tube, which are disgusting and not that you're tasting them,
Speaker 3: but they're upsetting your stomach. And then there's morphine you're
Speaker 3: putting through. It's just a it's a nightmare. And for me,
Speaker 3: it was a real nightmare because food is everything to me.
Speaker 3: It's now how most of my life. And not to
Speaker 3: be able to eat properly, not to be able to
Speaker 3: everything smelled horrible, tasted horrible, and not to be able
Speaker 3: to sit and eat with my friends and drink with
Speaker 3: my friends and cook for my family, it was really
Speaker 3: really hard.
Speaker 2: And did that come back? Obviously came back, But how
Speaker 2: did it just come back and you embraced.
Speaker 4: It or was it slow? It's very slow.
Speaker 3: It's still not I'm almost four years out from finishing
Speaker 3: my treatments and I still Last night I made lamb chops.
Speaker 4: I didn't really eat them.
Speaker 3: I can't really because you lose your saliva, so I
Speaker 3: don't have all of my saliva. So if you don't
Speaker 3: have your saliva, it's very hard to break things down.
Speaker 3: So I eat a lot of pasta. But that's fine.
Speaker 3: You know, I can eat it, just depends. You definitely
Speaker 3: cannot eat spice, even that pepper today on that well,
Speaker 3: it was delicious if it were a normal person. But
Speaker 3: because my mouth is so hyper sensitive that you know,
Speaker 3: I ate it very you have to eat it very slowly,
Speaker 3: and you're sort of drinking lots of water with it
Speaker 3: and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4: But that's just the way it is.
Speaker 3: I'm probably at the point now where this is about
Speaker 3: where I'm going to be. I don't know how much
Speaker 3: more I will recover, but it's fine. I can eat
Speaker 3: most things. I can drink wine, I can have a
Speaker 3: martini slowly.
Speaker 4: It's fine. Nicroni Negroni's yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know about the nigroni.
Speaker 4: It's my love of food.
Speaker 3: My desire to know more about it has just grown.
Speaker 3: So it's sort of all I think about, and it's
Speaker 3: very much how I spend my time now. And you know,
Speaker 3: I had people over last night and I fell asleep
Speaker 3: with terrible anxiety because I wasn't happy with the meal
Speaker 3: I cooked, and they said it was good.
Speaker 4: Do I believe them? I don't know.
Speaker 3: And also not just the meal, but also the fact
Speaker 3: that I kept getting up and sort of trying to
Speaker 3: time things and whereas I should have just made a stew,
Speaker 3: served it with polenta and sat down and that's the
Speaker 3: end of that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I had a cousin who came from Italy, apparently young
Speaker 2: kid who came and he stayed with some friends. And
Speaker 2: when they were told that, he asked what they're having
Speaker 2: for lunch and they didn't include pasta.
Speaker 4: He cried.
Speaker 2: It was about twelve and just cried because for him,
Speaker 2: pasta was just, you know, so important. I don't know
Speaker 2: what the British sure, you know the equivalente sausages and yeah, sausages.
Speaker 4: Sausages British. Yeah, they have sausages. Oh my god. Please,
Speaker 4: it's it's like we're I feel like I'm Fagan.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just you know, you know, doling out sausages all
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that if food can be painful, if food
Speaker 2: can be restorative, Food is an expression of love for
Speaker 2: our children. Food can be memory of your grandparents. It
Speaker 2: is also what we've been saying, it's comfort. And I
Speaker 2: suppose my last question to you, after really lovely afternoon
Speaker 2: thank you, is to ask you what Stanley Tucci would
Speaker 2: be your comfort.
Speaker 3: It's probably something that you love as well, which is
Speaker 3: pastave with tomato, pasta with a really simple tomato sauce
Speaker 3: and a little pam gano, and that's it.
Speaker 4: It makes me so comforted.
Speaker 2: It's definitely mine. So let's have it together, whether we
Speaker 2: need comfort or not. Thank you, Sam, thank you, thank
Speaker 2: you so much.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 2: To visit the online shop of The River Cafe, go
Speaker 2: to shop the Rivercafe dot co dot uk.
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