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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck

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Speaker 2: Jersey too. This is stuff you should know. What in

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Speaker 2: the world is that I'm smiling from a year grinning

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Speaker 2: and when I grin, my teeth come together look a

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Speaker 2: bear trap.

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Speaker 3: Well, if you're smiling, I bet it's because we are

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Speaker 3: headed out to see everybody hm on a five nights

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Speaker 3: adults only rare voyage with Virgin Voyages. This is October

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Speaker 3: second through seventh, from New York City to Bermuda. We

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Speaker 3: will be doing our live show and we will be

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Speaker 3: joined by our colleagues and our old pals. Stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know and stuff Mom never told you.

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Speaker 2: That's right. So we are going to be there from

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Speaker 2: October second to seventh. I'm going to be on that

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Speaker 2: boat to Bermuda from New York and back. And you

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Speaker 2: can get more information where Chuck.

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Speaker 3: At Virgin Voyages dot com slash stuff. Come on hang

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Speaker 3: out with us on a boat.

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Speaker 2: Very nice. Yeah, I think we should specify you shouldn't

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Speaker 2: expect to be able to get runner with us because

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Speaker 2: you know we're happily married.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, And what happens at sea doesn't just

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Speaker 3: stay at sea. That travels back home and you get divorced.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, and you have to go to the

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Speaker 2: doctor sometimes too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want that.

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Speaker 2: So we're talking today about smiling. I think it's appropriate

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Speaker 2: that I said I'm happily married because you me actually

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Speaker 2: requested this so long ago that when I went to

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Speaker 2: her last week and was like, do you remember what

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Speaker 2: prompted you to request smiling a long time ago? And

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Speaker 2: she's like, I don't remember requesting smiling. So yeah, it'll

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Speaker 2: forever be a mystery. But I'm glad that we're doing

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Speaker 2: this one because we've done like all sorts of other

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Speaker 2: stuff laughing discuss the scream forgiveness, Like there's just this

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Speaker 2: whole like aspect of human personality. Sweet that is just

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Speaker 2: kind of slowly assembling into one great person, you know.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 3: And we did an episode in the early days, I

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Speaker 3: think when we were but three years old, we were

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Speaker 3: podcast toddlers, Yeah, on whether or not smiling makes you happy.

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Speaker 3: So we're gonna recover a bit of that toward the end.

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Speaker 3: Little but we should probably start out by letting everyone

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Speaker 3: know that you use muscles when you smile.

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Speaker 1: It is all muscle movement.

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Speaker 3: And if you want to compare a smile to like

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Speaker 3: other dumb, boring muscles, the reason you can smile and

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Speaker 3: make like weird kind of faces just because you have

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Speaker 3: a lot of fast twitch myosin fibers in your face. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and that's why you can. Like, that's why you can't

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Speaker 3: make a face with your bicep.

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Speaker 2: I kind of can. It looks like a messed up face,

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Speaker 2: but it's still somebody. It would be like, I see

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Speaker 2: the face in there. It looks a little like mister Bill.

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Speaker 3: Now you can make a kick drum beat when you

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Speaker 3: flex those babies.

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Speaker 2: That's with my other one, So like I make mister

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Speaker 2: Bill's mouth open and close to the kick drum beat

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Speaker 2: from my other bicep.

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Speaker 3: But how do we compare to our primate friends?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Well, actually, it turns out, Chuck, I thought this

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Speaker 2: was quite interesting that our primates are actually our primate

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Speaker 2: friends are actually more expressive facially because they don't speak.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's.

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Speaker 2: The idea behind the whole thing. We do know that

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Speaker 2: primates typically are more expressive through their faces than humans are,

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Speaker 2: and that the idea behind it, or the explanation for

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Speaker 2: it is that humans require more slow twitch muscles, the

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Speaker 2: bigger muscles to talk, to move our faces in our

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Speaker 2: mouths to talk, which primates don't have to do. So

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Speaker 2: we essentially, basically our fast twitch muscles evolved into more

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Speaker 2: slow twitch muscles. But we're still pretty expressive. So don't

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Speaker 2: be too sad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: If you've ever you know, heard people say it takes

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Speaker 3: more muscles to frown than it does to smile, first

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Speaker 3: of all, lightly slap that person in the face with

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Speaker 3: a feather. Next, move along and say, you know what,

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Speaker 3: prove it because I looked and I couldn't. You know,

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Speaker 3: first of all, it's a very nuanced thing, like there

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Speaker 3: are a lot of different smiles and a lot of

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Speaker 3: different frowns. Yeah, that's a big point, and each of

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Speaker 3: those different ones, like you know, takes different muscles to

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Speaker 3: make those. So for someone just to sort of flatly say,

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Speaker 3: you know, it takes twenty two muscles to smile and

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Speaker 3: a hundred to frown, right, that's I can't couldn't find

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Speaker 3: anything that could verify that is true. Or like I

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Speaker 3: guess the message that they're sending is don't use your muscles.

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Speaker 3: It's better to not use your muscles.

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Speaker 2: Right, Why bother just smile? Yeah, it's funny. I looked

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Speaker 2: all over too, and all I could find were dentists' websites,

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Speaker 2: which were pretty pretty competent about that as.

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Speaker 1: Right back, Well, four out of five work.

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Speaker 2: But you said that your you're that was great? Uh?

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Speaker 2: You said that your your smiles all include muscles, and

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Speaker 2: not just yours, chuck, but all people's. That's right, and

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Speaker 2: it includes a very particular muscle, I think one on

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Speaker 2: each side, the zygomaticus major. These actually pull your your

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Speaker 2: the sides of your mouth up. So I guess the

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Speaker 2: joker when his face was slashed, it somehow made his

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Speaker 2: zygomatic kiss major constantly contracted.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: I just want to say, I'm not sure what's wrong

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Speaker 2: with me right now. I realize that I'm stammering and

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Speaker 2: having a lot of trouble. Hopefully my brain will reset

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Speaker 2: while you're talking next.

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Speaker 3: Now I have but noticing that I think you're doing great.

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Speaker 3: So there are actual people who and boy, they've done

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Speaker 3: a lot of research on smiling and stuff. As we go,

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Speaker 3: like you'll probably be at how much time and money

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Speaker 3: people have put into this kind of thing. But they

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Speaker 3: have done research and actually sort of like coded the

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Speaker 3: face and the system of muscles, so they know like

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Speaker 3: what each group does, the facial action coding system what

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Speaker 3: it's called the facts, just the facts.

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Speaker 2: I'm going with faces.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they couldn't come up with a knee.

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Speaker 2: I think it's implied.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm gonna go with just the faces then.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: So they, like I said, they made various codes for

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Speaker 3: these muscle movements and assign like names to them. And

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Speaker 3: they know that all smiles involve action unit twelve, which

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Speaker 3: is both of those zygomaticus major muscles contracting, and you

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Speaker 3: know you said, they raise them up or they also

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Speaker 3: raise them out because you'll see, when you smile your smile,

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Speaker 3: your mouth gets wider as well.

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Speaker 2: And the whole world smiles with you.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 3: But if you're really happy and you're not, and we'll

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Speaker 3: talk about the different kinds of smiles, like including fake smiles,

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Speaker 3: but if you're really genuinely happy with something and smiling

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Speaker 3: from joy or you know, being alive, that means your

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Speaker 3: eyes are involved, and that is action unit six.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so a couple of things here. Action unit twelve

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Speaker 2: I think is the pinnacle of band names that we've

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Speaker 2: ever covered.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty darn good.

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Speaker 2: Not only is a great name if you dig into

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Speaker 2: what it means, you're talking about smiling. It's the name

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Speaker 2: for smiling, so that's pretty awesome, but it also has

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Speaker 2: a built in abbreviation that's great too, AU twelve, maybe

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Speaker 2: even AU one two.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so you've got on a logo or whatever.

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Speaker 2: I really genuinely think that is the best band name

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Speaker 2: we've ever stumbled upon.

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Speaker 3: So did that just unseed Frozen Poop Knife?

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Speaker 2: I think so they could go on tour together? But

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Speaker 2: does that mean we retire this bit I don't know

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Speaker 2: chuck as possible.

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Speaker 3: Well, well, here's the deal, I think if we if

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Speaker 3: we don't retire it, we will just have to mention

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Speaker 3: almost every time from now unlike but it's no AU twelve.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, but yes, all apologies to Frozen Poop Knife.

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Speaker 2: We will will never forget you and we'll bring you

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Speaker 2: up still.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they just kicked over their kick drum.

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Speaker 2: So the no, that was my bicep. So if you

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Speaker 2: take Action Unit twelve and Action Unit six together, that's

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Speaker 2: what's known as the Duchen Smile and We definitely talked

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Speaker 2: about Gillom Duschen in our Can Smiling Make You Happy? Episode?

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And in fact I think we called them

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Speaker 3: Dushane because the the translator spelled it whacky. How oh,

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Speaker 3: I mean different things kine k A I n E,

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Speaker 3: Shane s h A n E. That's two different names. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's you know, go aa translator, I guess.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but we're gonna go with g Duschen this time,

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Speaker 2: who was a French neurologist. He also was dabbling with

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Speaker 2: electricity and photography. I saw that he basically existed at

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Speaker 2: this neat crossroad of three emergent sciences that were coming

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Speaker 2: out at the same time. This guy put them all

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Speaker 2: the use and he stimulated people's facial muscles with electricity.

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Speaker 2: There's an extensive set of photographs of him doing this

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Speaker 2: to this poor guy. And this guy's making all these

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Speaker 2: weird facial expressions and Dushen is coating all of them.

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Speaker 2: But it's kind of hysterical to think that, like, this

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Speaker 2: guy's not purposely making these He's being zapped with electricity

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Speaker 2: and that's what's making them because the correct muscle combination

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Speaker 2: is being zapped. Right then by Duschen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pretty funny stuff.

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Speaker 3: So he claimed, and this was sort of a and

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Speaker 3: I think people thought this was true for a while.

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Speaker 3: Was you know this notion that you can you can

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Speaker 3: tell a fake smile by the eyes, and that's sort

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Speaker 3: of the dead giveaway. And he may have not reinforced it,

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Speaker 3: but he may have sort of planted that seed when

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Speaker 3: he said that the orbicularis oculi, which is action unit

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Speaker 3: six that we talked about the eyes that would only

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Speaker 3: contract due to the sweet emotions of the soul, which

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Speaker 3: is a very nice thing to say, but it turns

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Speaker 3: out that's probably not true.

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Speaker 2: No people can, including Tyra Banks, can make yourself or

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Speaker 2: make themselves up'm sorry, smile with their eyes. But there

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Speaker 2: does seem to be some disagreement on whether that can

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Speaker 2: fully be ever fully be reproduced voluntarily. And I like

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Speaker 2: to think that it can't be that there's still some

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Speaker 2: smile out there that's so genuine that it can't voluntarily

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Speaker 2: be reproduced fully.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what the deal is is there are

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Speaker 3: some people who are probably so good at the fake

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Speaker 3: smile that you just don't realize it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, be aware of those people.

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Speaker 3: Of those things can be true I think what you

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Speaker 3: said is definitely true.

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Speaker 2: Thanks. Man. I want to say one other thing about

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Speaker 2: AU six Action Unit six. If you go and look

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Speaker 2: at the faces, coatings or facts, it's just like strips

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Speaker 2: of like the mouth or the eyes or something like that.

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Speaker 2: And for Action Unit six, it is a strip of

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Speaker 2: my eyes. It is very clearly somebody took my photo

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Speaker 2: and just cut out the eyes. Wow, and it's just

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Speaker 2: showing that it looks exactly like my eyes. Dude, you

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Speaker 2: should go look.

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Speaker 1: Send me a screenshot. I'm not going to look it up.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I will eventually see.

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Speaker 1: That's the agreement we came to.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I think that's fair enough.

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Speaker 3: Two guys who do research for a living. You can't

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Speaker 3: make the other one look anything up.

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Speaker 2: No, we just send screenshot.

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Speaker 3: So if we're talking about evolution, like, it's a pretty

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Speaker 3: human thing to just you know, be alive in the

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Speaker 3: world and smile because you're feeling good and having a

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Speaker 3: good day. If you look at something in the like

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Speaker 3: a somebody from the primate kingdom and you see that

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Speaker 3: teeth like you, man, I've seen those chimpanzees beare those

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Speaker 3: teeth and everyone's like, oh, they're so happy and that's

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Speaker 3: actually not what they're trying to say to you, And

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Speaker 3: it doesn't mean they're trying to kill you right then either.

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Speaker 3: But it's a sign of submission, apparently.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I always I didn't. Never took it as they always

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Speaker 3: look stressed out to me, like when I see a

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Speaker 3: chimpanzee bear their teeth like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen them. It depends on I think it

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Speaker 2: depends on the rest of the face, because I can

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Speaker 2: bring to mind images of chimps doing that. The one

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Speaker 2: I bring to mind more is Clyde from every which

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Speaker 2: Way but Loose doing that orangutang.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Man, he definitely did that, and he didn't seem stressed out,

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Speaker 2: but they definitely played it like he was laughing or

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Speaker 2: something like that, and he surely wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: One of the things about that, though Chuck is smiling

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Speaker 2: through submission, that is that still survived into humans for sure.

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Speaker 2: Like that is something that we do not just to

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Speaker 2: say like you're an alpha, I'm a beta, but also

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Speaker 2: to say like, hey, I just want to get along,

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Speaker 2: no stress over here, yeah, yeah, or you know, to

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Speaker 2: to basically not be tense or if an awkward pause

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Speaker 2: comes both people might kind of smile or something like that.

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Speaker 2: All of that is essentially the same thing as a

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Speaker 2: chimp smiling to signal submission.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: There was a paper in nineteen seventy nine, a pretty

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Speaker 3: classic smiling paper where these psychologists Robert Crouton, Robert Johnston,

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Speaker 3: they were notating how people reacted when they went bowling

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Speaker 3: together and found they were more likely to smile when

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Speaker 3: just like hanging out and talking than after getting a strike, which,

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Speaker 3: like that totally tracks because like when you get a strike, you're.

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Speaker 1: Supposed to be that cool, like you meant to do that.

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Speaker 1: You're not supposed to turn around and go right.

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Speaker 2: For sure. I read a little more about that study.

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Speaker 2: One participant, Hayesus, never smiled and another participant, inn Amish

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Speaker 2: man named Ishmael smiled almost constantly.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think we might want to talk about a

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Speaker 3: little bit, and I know we've covered this before, was

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Speaker 3: baby smiling, because it's about one of the cutest darned

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Speaker 3: things in the world is when you see a little

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Speaker 3: baby smile at you. That does happen very early. Very

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Speaker 3: newborn infants can smile, but those are sort of just

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Speaker 3: random smiles like they may have farted or something and

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Speaker 3: are smiling because it's funny. They'll learn that a little

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Speaker 3: bit later, and not because they lit it on fire.

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Speaker 3: They'll learn that probably in their tween years.

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Speaker 2: That's dangerous, is it?

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Speaker 1: Really?

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Speaker 2: I've always heard why not? You never let a part

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Speaker 2: I have, but I escaped by the skin of my teeth.

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Speaker 3: It's usually just sort of a random occurrence when a

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Speaker 3: very newborn baby smiles about four to six weeks. They

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Speaker 3: start smiling when they wake up and they see you

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Speaker 3: or hear you, as we'll see, but it's still sort

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Speaker 3: of indiscriminate. It seems like the social smiling that starts

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Speaker 3: at about six to twelve weeks when they're like, hey,

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Speaker 3: I see mom or dad or whoever I like to

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Speaker 3: see or I hear their voice, and that makes me

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Speaker 3: happy exactly.

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Speaker 2: But apparently they're also master manipulators, because they've been found

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Speaker 2: to time their smiles to maximize smiling from their caretaker,

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Speaker 2: so like they'll give you a smile so that you'll

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Speaker 2: smile at them for thirty seconds, and they'll flash you

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Speaker 2: another one, and there you go, you're smiling again. They

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Speaker 2: learn to do that like really early.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder if twins are ever like, hey, watch this.

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Speaker 2: Kind of I'm sure did you see that link I

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Speaker 2: sent you to this about the study of baby smiling

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Speaker 2: in you to row. Yeah, if you want your paper

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Speaker 2: to make the national news, just make it on baby smiles.

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Speaker 2: But this paper from twenty twenty two in the Journal

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Speaker 2: of Psychological Science. They gave pregnant women carrot pills or

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Speaker 2: kale pills, and when the women ate carrot pills, the

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Speaker 2: babies smiled like fifteen twenty minutes later as it was

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Speaker 2: digested and reached them. When they ate kale, the baby's grimaced.

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Speaker 3: I wonder what they did when they gave them the

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Speaker 3: Reese's peanut butter cup.

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Speaker 2: They just started doing three sixties.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they started break dancing.

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Speaker 2: But one other thing about the study, Chuck that one

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Speaker 2: of the co authors was named Jacqueline Blissett.

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Speaker 1: Uh, that's funny.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's true though, I think it's great.

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Speaker 3: No, I know, but it's still funny, right, Okay.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I wonder though if they're her parents were like,

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Speaker 2: we love Charlie's Angels that much.

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Speaker 1: I don't get the Charlie's Angels ref.

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Speaker 2: Oh, Jacqueline Bassett was the she was the best Charlie's

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Speaker 2: Angel if you ask me one of the original three.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't in Charlie's Angels.

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Speaker 2: Jacqueline Bassett.

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Speaker 1: I don't know who you're thinking of, buddy.

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Speaker 2: All right now, we do need to look something up.

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Speaker 3: You go ahead, Okay, I'll go ahead, all right. So

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Speaker 3: I mentioned hearing and planning a little seed there that

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Speaker 3: a little infant maybe hearing something could make them smile.

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Speaker 3: And they know this stuff because you know, they've done

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Speaker 3: studies on whether smiles are innate or imitative. And so

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Speaker 3: if you're going to do a study like this, you

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Speaker 3: might want to study babies who are congenually blind. And

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Speaker 3: they have found that it really doesn't make a difference.

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Speaker 3: Blind infants start to smile in response to that voice,

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Speaker 3: just like cited babies too. And they did another study

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Speaker 3: of congenitally blind athletes at the Paralympic Games, and this

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Speaker 3: one had was from twenty three different cultures, because, as

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Speaker 3: we'll see, different cultures like smiles might mean different things

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Speaker 3: and had the same They had the same spontaneous expressions

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Speaker 3: as sided counterparts, sort of across the board.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which is pretty awesome. They also found that the

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Speaker 2: children who were studied. I don't remember what study this

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Speaker 2: was in, but basically they observed children who were given

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Speaker 2: reasons to basically mask disappointment with a smile. And apparently,

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Speaker 2: and this is for real, like play schoolers or nursery schoolers.

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Speaker 2: They had them make lists of toys they wanted, and

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Speaker 2: then they gave them a toy that they hadn't asked for,

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Speaker 2: and the kid would mask their disappointment with a little smile.

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Speaker 2: And they found that sighted and non cited kids basically

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Speaker 2: made the same facial expressions in that situation too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, amazing. Did you look up Charlie's Angels?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I did. I was hoping you.

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Speaker 1: Would forget Jacqueline Smith.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you got Jacqueline right.

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Speaker 2: Well, we might just take out the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: All you never know, all right, Uh, well, I guess

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Speaker 3: we'll see.

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Speaker 1: We'll let the listener decide.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that's possible.

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Speaker 1: Well, not decide, but decide how they feel about it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but they won't know about it if we took

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Speaker 2: it out.

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Speaker 3: Well, but they wouldn't even hear what I just said

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Speaker 3: then either.

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Speaker 2: No, we should leave this part in and really confuse everybody.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, I brought up cultural differences. Jacqueline Smith is

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Speaker 3: eighty years old.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, how's she doing?

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Speaker 3: She's doing great. Hey, listen, I'm not one to comment

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Speaker 3: on people's appearance, because I know that's untoward. Sure, but

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Speaker 3: Jacqueline Smith does not look like any other eighty year

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Speaker 3: old that I've ever seen.

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Speaker 2: She is the best angel? You agree, right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? She was my favorite. I think, good actor. I

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Speaker 3: think I had a pretty big crush on her.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I mean, for sure, I think everybody had a

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Speaker 2: crush on all of the Charlie's Angels to some extent.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I'm with you. I think Jacqueline Smith was

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Speaker 3: definitely the top angel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. She was great in The Deep too.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that was a good movie.

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Speaker 2: I was trying to make a joke. I thought that

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Speaker 2: was Jacqueline Bessett, who's in the Deep?

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, she was in the Deep?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh boy, we're going to take that part out too.

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Speaker 3: Oh Oka, Jerry's gonna have fun with this one. Excuse me, Like,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna pass this one on to Ben.

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Speaker 1: I got stuff going on.

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Speaker 2: Can't you hear people being like, get back to smiling?

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Speaker 3: I know, all right, back to smiling. I mentioned different cultures,

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Speaker 3: because you know, there's the idea of like what if

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Speaker 3: I'm in a different culture and I like smile at

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Speaker 3: someone and that actually means like I hate what you

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Speaker 3: just fed me or something like that. So they've done

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Speaker 3: a lot of studying over the years. There's in the sixties,

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Speaker 3: it was a psychologist named Paul Ekman who did experiments

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Speaker 3: where they just showed images of faces to different cultures

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Speaker 3: and then like had them pick from a list on

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Speaker 3: what emotion that was. And he was like, all right,

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Speaker 3: here's what I came up with. There are six universal

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Speaker 3: facial expressions. Only six anger, disgust, enjoyment, fear, sadness, and surprise.

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Speaker 3: Later he said contempt. All right, there is a seventh.

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Speaker 3: We'll add contempt. But a lot of people have picked

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Speaker 3: that apart because he it was multiple choice, and they're like,

404
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 3: it's probably a better study, and people have done it

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Speaker 3: since if you just show them pictures and have them

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Speaker 3: like write down what that is and not to pick

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Speaker 3: from your list.

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Speaker 2: Right, And he also was over their shoulder pointing to

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Speaker 2: the correct answer whenever.

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Speaker 1: They would exactly.

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Speaker 2: But that's not to say that he was wrong. It

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Speaker 2: does turn out that subsequent research and a lot of

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Speaker 2: it has essentially found that, Yeah, there's pretty much universal

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Speaker 2: agreement on what facial expressions mean. There's a lot of disagreement,

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Speaker 2: but for the most part, you're going to find the

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Speaker 2: vast majority look at someone smiling and associate that with happiness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's some nuance in there, depending on

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Speaker 3: where you are. Interestingly, they did find that people smile

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Speaker 3: more in countries that have a lot of immigration as

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Speaker 3: a whole, Countries that are like the United States, that

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Speaker 3: are formed from people from all over the world.

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Speaker 1: Melting pot, yeah, like.

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Speaker 3: Brazil is another one, And some researchers have put out

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Speaker 3: and make sense to me that, like, Yeah, when you

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Speaker 3: have a bunch of people living in a melting pot,

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Speaker 3: people generally want to get along, so they're probably using

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Speaker 3: a smile more than you might in a country where

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Speaker 3: like most people are from there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a nonverbal way of saying like, hey friendly,

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Speaker 2: I'm friendly too. Great.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it totally makes sense. I think.

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Speaker 2: Also this one, I was unsure about countries with low

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Speaker 2: population densities. They have more room to smile, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: or they just have fewer other people to deal with.

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Speaker 2: Those are my two interpretations.

436
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, But like you said.

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Speaker 2: There are some nuance to the whole thing. In East Asia,

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Speaker 2: specifically in Japan and China, they basically emphasize the eyes

439
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 2: like that's where the smile lay in action unit six

440
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Speaker 2: me essentially, and they don't even apparently use the curved

441
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 2: line for a smile on their emoticons. It's just the

442
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,880
Speaker 2: eyes as triangles, basically simulating action unit six.

443
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of fun. Another thing that smiling conveys,

444
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 3: or at least I don't know if it conveys it,

445
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 3: but people take it this way is they find people

446
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 3: not only happier but more competent and attractive generally when

447
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 3: they're smiling.

448
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 2: Sure, give me a smile, baby.

449
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. Oh no, no, don't say that.

450
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 3: In twenty fifteen, there was a study that showed photographs

451
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 3: of people with different expressions to forty four different cultures

452
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 3: around the world, and they found that like in China

453
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 3: and Germany and Egypt, they associated a smile with intelligence,

454
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: but in Japan, France, and Iran, I guess I'm on

455
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 3: that sort of a sound they thought it meant or

456
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 3: at the least they correlated it with lower intelligence.

457
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: Like they think you look dippy if you have a

458
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 2: big smile in those countries.

459
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 3: I guess it depends on the person in the smile, sure,

460
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 3: Like kletis the slack jawed yokels big toothy smile, Like

461
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 3: I could see that.

462
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's interesting too, is there's different different countries or

463
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: cultures have agreed at different periods of time too, as

464
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 2: we'll see.

465
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 1: Should we take a break.

466
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 2: Let's take a break, because I think that was one

467
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 2: of the best cliffhangers we've ever come up with.

468
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: For sure, we'll be right back, so Chuck.

469
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: We're onto the history part. Shout out to Colin Jones,

470
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 2: who wrote a really good article on aon. He was

471
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: the author of the book Smile Revolution Colon in eighteenth

472
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 2: century Paris. I've never seen a colon be more useless

473
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: than the one Colin Jones put into his book title.

474
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: But regardless, this Aon article was super helpful.

475
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, are you talking about, like portrait painting.

476
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 2: The whole darn thing, buddy, Like, basically the progress of smile,

477
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 2: the smile being acceptable in Western culture. It traces a

478
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 2: pretty long heritage and it's had its ups and downs essentially.

479
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, I definitely I mean, it makes sense, but

480
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 3: I never knew that like portraits being so serious, like

481
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 3: painted portraits, was because it's you can't make a realistic

482
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 3: looking smile, because smiling again is something ideally that's happening spontaneously,

483
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 3: and you can't hold that while you're sitting for a portrait.

484
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 3: So that's the reason why all those portraits for so many,

485
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 3: you know, hundreds and thousands of years, we're just more

486
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 3: serious looking.

487
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you can just be like, hurry up, I

488
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: know it's no good. Yeah, that is pretty interesting too.

489
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 2: I guess we talked about something like that and the

490
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: orthodonics episode because I think also there was just like

491
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: you just didn't show your teeth, like that was just etiquette.

492
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 2: There was a manual for boys, an etiquette manual that

493
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 2: said that decorum forbids you to allow your teeth to

494
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: be uncovered, since nature gave us lips to conceal them.

495
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 2: And I saw also that there was this general idea

496
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 2: that if you were going to laugh, okay, we'd rather

497
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: you don't, but if you're going to laugh silently and

498
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: laugh with your mouth closed. And there's a painting from

499
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: sixteen twenty four by Franz Hall's called the laughing Cavalier

500
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: that if you want to see what that looks like,

501
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: it's that, and it looks like essentially a smug half

502
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: smile that's apparently laughing in the seventeenth century.

503
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, if you look at old yearbooks, you know,

504
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 3: people didn't start smiling till later. You know, teeth were

505
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 3: fairly janky for a while. And it's theorized that it's

506
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 3: just a holdover from the portrait painting days, right where

507
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 3: if you sat for a portrait, and then later in

508
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 3: photography it's just a more formal sort of thing. It's

509
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 3: not a candid and so you don't just sit there

510
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 3: and flash a big smile. But people started doing that eventually,

511
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 3: I did.

512
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 2: Who helped us with this one, Livia did.

513
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Libya saw some research that said that early photography too,

514
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: like long exposures, people couldn't hold a smile, But I

515
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 3: kind of called bunk on that.

516
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: I've seen that online.

517
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: But by the eighteen fifties and sixties, it was only

518
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 3: a few seconds of exposure, like the cameras were good

519
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: enough for that. So I think it had more to

520
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 3: do with the holdover. It just wasn't something that people did,

521
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 3: like smiling like a dope, and a painting or a

522
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 3: picture was just untoward.

523
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said, smiling like a dope. Basically, in Europe,

524
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: for hundreds and hundreds of years, smiles were associated with

525
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: you being immature, you being drunk, you being insane, and

526
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 2: like that's just that was a way you depicted people,

527
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: was showing them smiling and like a painting, and the

528
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 2: viewer would know what you were showing was maybe like

529
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 2: a patient in an asylum or somebody who was meant

530
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 2: to be drunk or something like that. That was the

531
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: only way you would show it. And in the United States,

532
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 2: at least, it wasn't until the nineteen thirties when people

533
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 2: started actually smiling for photographs, and it really took off

534
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: after that because of advertising ads for cameras that basically said, hey,

535
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 2: you should smile with a picture. What's your problem? Just

536
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: go ahead and smile. Don't you know it takes more

537
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: muscles to frown than to smile.

538
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they're like, buy the new codec so you

539
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 3: can capture your dower grandmother and all her majesty exactly.

540
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 2: But there was that. Did you mention the yearbook study?

541
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 3: No, not a study just that in yearbooks, like it

542
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: took a while for that to catch on.

543
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, some study basically tracked it, and then I guess,

544
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: like I said, by the thirties it really started to

545
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: take off. And then by the fifties. This is anecdotal,

546
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: but just from watching Happy Days, yearbook photos essentially became

547
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: big goof grints because just imagine like Ralph mauf or

548
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: POTSI having like a solemn look in their yearbook photo.

549
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: You can't do it.

550
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I don't have a ton of pictures

551
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: of my parents growing up, but I think I do

552
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 3: have like the college portraits of their yearbooks, and they're

553
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 3: both smiling ish and those.

554
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's I have one picture of my parents, I think,

555
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: right before I was born, and they're smiling, and he's

556
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: like a portrait they're smiling at each other. My dad looks, goofy.

557
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 3: Should we talk about types of smiles?

558
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: Sure?

559
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: Boy?

560
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 3: You really had me on on an edge there. So Ekman,

561
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: the guy the you know psychologists that I was talking

562
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: about the study a lot about smiles. He talked about

563
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 3: identifying a real, genuine enjoyment smile because of the eyes,

564
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 3: those dushen markers and that's what we kind of said

565
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 3: early on, is that a lot of research is found

566
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 3: that like the real genuine smiles is in the eyes,

567
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 3: but you can still fake.

568
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: That, right, But he said that in a real smile,

569
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 2: like this is why I'm like, I'm holding out hope

570
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: that there is a smile that cannot be voluntarily replicated.

571
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: Ekman said, in a true Duchen smile, the eye cover

572
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: fold between your eyebrow and the eyelid or the top

573
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: of your eyelid that actually goes downward a little bit

574
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: and then the ends of your eyebrows dip down with

575
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: it a little bit. You can't do that on your own.

576
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: You can't do that. Like I'm having to pull my

577
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: face right now to make myself do that.

578
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: That's right.

579
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 3: And so next time you're on a blind date, if

580
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 3: you're trying to figure out if they are truly truly

581
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 3: enjoying and smiling, just stare as hard as you can

582
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 3: at the eye cover fold and see what it reveals.

583
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 2: Bring a caliper with you so you can take accurate

584
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: measurements of the width of the eye cover ful.

585
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: That's right, full of categorized smiles over the years, because

586
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 3: they you know, Some are just for joy, but a

587
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 3: lot of smiles have purposes, like you were talking about earlier,

588
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: like hey, it's cool here, like we just want to

589
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 3: get out alive.

590
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 2: Right.

591
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 3: There is the reward smile, which is very I engaged

592
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 3: and offers the feedback to your conversation partner of like

593
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 3: like hey, I'm liking what you're laying down here.

594
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, hey my eyes are up here.

595
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right.

596
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: There's affiliate of smiles that show friendliness. These are the

597
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: ones you'll flash a stranger at the grocery store, you know.

598
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, like if you're from the second sneak.

599
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 2: Up behind you and club you with a giant bottle

600
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: of wine.

601
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: That's right.

602
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: There's dominant smiles too, which man essentially like the lip

603
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: will be lifted a little bit. Usually it's asymmetrical. I

604
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: think it's one of those ones where like you just

605
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: know if you've been smiled at with the dominant smile,

606
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: because you just have a bad taste in your mouth

607
00:31:59,360 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: all of a sudden.

608
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: For sure.

609
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: Eckmun identified eighteen smiles. We're I'm gonna go through all those,

610
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 3: but I think we should talk about did you want

611
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 3: to No, I think we should talk about a couple

612
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: of them. One of my favorites is the miserable smile.

613
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: Yea.

614
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 3: It is usually asymmetrical and layered on layered on top,

615
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: and it usually follows a negative expression, so it's trying

616
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 3: to convey like you're not trying to hide that you're

617
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: unhappy and you're just accepting what's happening. So I would

618
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: act that out as the smile, like, well, I guess

619
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 3: this is happening now.

620
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: Yes, I would chalk the current reigning champ of the

621
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: Miserable smile. As far as Hollywood goes up to the actor.

622
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: I don't know her name, but she was in I

623
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: Don't Feel at Home in This World Anymore. She was

624
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 2: the star of that. She played Leonardo DiCaprio's wife, and

625
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 2: don't look up. She's good at that. Okay, have you

626
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 2: not seen I Don't Feel at Home in this World Anymore? Know?

627
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 3: Was that a movie or a TV show?

628
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:08,479
Speaker 2: It was a movie. It was an indie movie. Toby Maguire, Frodo,

629
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Frodo.

630
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 3: He was in it with her, Olga would Oh, you're

631
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 3: Melanie Lensky.

632
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: She's the best.

633
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 2: Okay, yes her, Thank you for coming up with that

634
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: that movie is definitely worth seeing. It's a great indie movie.

635
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: It's good.

636
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 3: Oh, I'll check that out. I love both of them,

637
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 3: especially like her. She's wonderful. She's married to Jason Ritter.

638
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 3: No way, yeah, great, one of the great couples.

639
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: Okay, good, I.

640
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: Mean Hollywood couples. You know, they're usually phonies. They seem

641
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: pretty real.

642
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, because there I always have that miserable smile.

643
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: That's right. What other smiles, Josh, what's your favorite?

644
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: Oh, miserable smiles My favorite too.

645
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: Okay.

646
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: The embarrassment smile I think is kind of funny. Oh, yeah,

647
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 2: because it's just so involuntary. Yeah, like if you imagine

648
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 2: somebody actually doing this, it's hard to do, and it

649
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: kind of makes you appreciate what actors do, like just

650
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: how hard it is to be a good actor, because

651
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 2: you might be called upon to do an embarrassment smile

652
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: where you're embarrassed and you smile. It's kind of usually

653
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: like just barely tilted up, your lips are pressed together,

654
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: and you're looking downward, maybe even to the side a

655
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 2: little bit, and it's just so quick and just so

656
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 2: you just can't stop yourself. You just do an embarrassment smile,

657
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 2: and everybody's like, oh, it's okay, except for that one

658
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 2: guy who's got the dominant smile because you just showed

659
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: that you're embarrassed. Yeah, and now he knows that you're

660
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 2: a mark.

661
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

662
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how those embarrassment smile.

663
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 3: All right, Well, you know what, let's take a break

664
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 3: and I'm going to cover my favorite, last favorite smile

665
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 3: right after this. I know our timing is just all

666
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 3: wonky on this and this because we're having fun, so

667
00:34:42,920 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 3: we'll be right back with my favorite smile. All right, everybody,

668
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna call this the William H. Macy in

669
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 3: his office in Fargo smile when Fran McDermott meets him

670
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 3: for the first time. It's that smile. It's the coordination smile,

671
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 3: and a coordination smile indicates cooperation and acknowledgment. Slightly asymmetrical

672
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 3: and it's sort of slight. But Bill Macy in that

673
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 3: scene with the yeah, we'll just we'll do.

674
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: A lot count.

675
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 3: We'll just shoot those numbers right on over to you.

676
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 3: So like he's coordinating, he's showing cooperation, but it's still

677
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 3: kind of phony.

678
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 1: Oh, it's sort of a business smile.

679
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: Almost he's great at that though too. Yeah, and it

680
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: also has like I'm just so pathetic, like don't you

681
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 2: can't even question me, like like just overlook me?

682
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 3: Kind of Yeah, do you know that movie is ninety

683
00:35:58,800 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 3: minutes long?

684
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: Man, we need to get back to that. Anything two

685
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 2: hours are over means that the producers did not ring

686
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 2: the director in. No.

687
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 3: I agree movies are too bloated now. And if anyone

688
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 3: ever makes it, like if a director would to make

689
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 3: an argument that we really need that, I would just

690
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 3: say Fargo and walk out of the room.

691
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that's all you need to say. Yeah,

692
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: I've been watching some nineties and eighties movies and they're

693
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: definitely like ninety minutes. It's all it takes. That's all

694
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 2: it should take. I saw fifty two pickup recently.

695
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: Oh who was.

696
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 2: That Roy Scheider and Ann Martinetz.

697
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, good movie.

698
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 2: It was all right.

699
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: I love Roy Schiter.

700
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: It was much more hardcore than it makes you think

701
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 2: it's going to be in the first like fifteen minutes.

702
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 3: Because you thought it was about cards and just like

703
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 3: throwing them on playing that game.

704
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 2: Right, just an hour and a half of that, Uh, huh,

705
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: I've got one more smile, Chuck.

706
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: All right, let's hear it.

707
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: The uncanny smile.

708
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so you're talking about they made a whole

709
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 3: movie franchise around that.

710
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, smile right, that's exactly what I'm talking about. It

711
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: was also the Ghost Family and Insidious the first one. Yeah,

712
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 2: they all had that uncanny smile. Jack Nicholson might have

713
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: been the progenitor of the whole thing. In the Shining

714
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 2: when he's got that smile where he's like, look here,

715
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: he's looking like over, he's looking at his chins down,

716
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 2: but his eyes are up and he's got that crazy

717
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: smile on his face.

718
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very unsettling.

719
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: It is. That's the uncanny smile, and it will haunt

720
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: your dreams.

721
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: Okay. I didn't know if you had any science behind it.

722
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: I looked and I couldn't find anything. The most I

723
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: could find was that it was contextually wrong, right, and

724
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: that it kind of set our brains on edge from that,

725
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: and then also if you really now that you kind

726
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 2: of know about the facial coding system, if you look

727
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 2: at it, the AU six is definitely not an effect

728
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 2: because the eyes are usually staring while there's this shage

729
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: grin and that is not a normal combination.

730
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I think what's important there doesn't need

731
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 3: to be science as long as everyone agrees that it's

732
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 3: scary for movies.

733
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, what else, buddy, Oh, I think we've reached the

734
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: best part.

735
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: Does smiling make us happy?

736
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 2: Yes?

737
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 1: Yeah?

738
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 3: So you know, like I said, we did a full

739
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 3: episode on this, but that's that was three years in

740
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 3: and I don't think we were very good at that point.

741
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 3: So hopefully this will be better. I was approved by.

742
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 2: This episode today. Right, This was a throwback, wasn't it. Yeah,

743
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 2: we should have gone for the second ad break right

744
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: before we went to a listener mail. Yeah. So the

745
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: idea that smiling makes us feel happier apparently traces itself

746
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: back to Darwin. Yeah, and Darwin was big into smiling.

747
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: He saw facial expressions in general as a evidence of

748
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 2: vestigial behavior that we had from like our primate ancestors. Right, Yeah,

749
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 2: And there there have been tons of studies to find

750
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 2: out if that's true, and they've come back with like

751
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: mixed results. Some of them are like meaned of maybe,

752
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: but others are like nah, I don't know about that.

753
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a tough thing to test, because what they

754
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 3: do is like they have different methodologies. One of the

755
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 3: early ones, I think was from nineteen eighty eight, and

756
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 3: they said, you know, they put a pin in your

757
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 3: mouth like sideways, which will you know, make sort of

758
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 3: a fake assimilation of a smile.

759
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 2: I guess, well, that's if you have the pen sticking

760
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: out of your mouth straight between your teeth.

761
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: Right.

762
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 3: No, really, no, no, no, I thought it was. I

763
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 3: thought they would put it sideways so it would make

764
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 3: your lips out. You're saying, they just hold it in

765
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 3: your teeth like a cigarette.

766
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 2: Yes, in the middle of your mouth. That'll make you smile.

767
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: And then if you put it like in between, like sideways,

768
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 2: that makes you frown. Huh not anybody you got a penhandy, Well.

769
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: I'll do it and I'll text it to you. No, now,

770
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: I'll make your.

771
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: Research it you send me a screen shot.

772
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 3: Well, either way, if you hold that pin between their teeth,

773
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 3: they will then ask you questions like you like are

774
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 3: you happy? Are you not happy? Stuff like that, and

775
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 3: like look at this thing, does this make you happy?

776
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: And I guess that's.

777
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 3: Supposed to indicate that, like if your mouth is forced

778
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 3: into a smile, that you'll be happier. That just it

779
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 3: didn't make sense to me.

780
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's the study. That's what they study is

781
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: just like if you can if the facial feedback that

782
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 2: you're getting showing that you're smiling, that it can happen

783
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,399
Speaker 2: in the reverse rather than smiling because you're happy, If

784
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: you make yourself smile, can that make you happy? Right?

785
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: And that one, that first nineteen eighty eight study. To

786
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: keep people from knowing that they were being tested about smiling,

787
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 2: they taught they told them that they were they were

788
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 2: testing out new methods to help disabled people, right, who

789
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 2: didn't who didn't have arms, So they were trying to

790
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: figure out ways to help them write so that people.

791
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,399
Speaker 2: That's what they thought they were doing. And then they said, here,

792
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 2: check out this cartoon. Is this funny or not? And

793
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 2: I guess all of the cartoons were ziggy, so every

794
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: one thought they were funny, but the people who were

795
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 2: making the smiles thought they were funnier than everybody.

796
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 3: Wow, all right, that got way more interesting once I

797
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 3: knew how they lied.

798
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they definitely lied for sure. Never trust a researcher.

799
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 3: This one from twenty twenty four carries a little more

800
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: weight for me, because it's not just sticking a pin

801
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 3: in someone's mouth. A psychologist named Sebastian Korb of the

802
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 3: University of Essexon did a thing where he ran a

803
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 3: little electric current into those fast twitched muscles which forced

804
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 3: like a smile to happen for just like a half

805
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 3: a second, and then they assessed whether a like a

806
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 3: digital image of a face looked happy. So apparently when

807
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 3: they had douce those tiny little smiles, people were more

808
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: likely to identify a neutral face as happy.

809
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the big failing of all of these studies

810
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 2: is that they go social psychology at the end, like

811
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 2: are you happy? Do you feel happy? Is this comic funny?

812
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 2: Is this neutral face happy? And it just becomes so

813
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 2: subjective and self reporting that it's the jury's still out.

814
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, there is my comedian?

815
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: Am I making you laugh?

816
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 2: What? Am I a clown? Do? I amuse you?

817
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: I just watched that again the other night.

818
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: What is that? Good Fellas?

819
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 1: Yeah?

820
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 3: I mean it's still great. You know it's not great?

821
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 3: Is the aviator? Because I mentioned that in the Howard

822
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: Hughes episode. I just watched the Howard Hughes in Vegas bit.

823
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 3: But I had recently seen the Scorsese documentary series and

824
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 3: I was like, you know, I should watch all of

825
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 3: the Aviator.

826
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: It's not one of his best.

827
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: No, I know. It didn't get a lot of praise. Yeah,

828
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 2: it was two and a half hours long, too, wasn't it?

829
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 3: It was pretty long. It was not ninety minutes.

830
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: I'll tell you.

831
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 2: There is one more intervention about smiling make you happy.

832
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: It's from Dialectical Behavior Therapy DBT okay, and it employs

833
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: the half smile, and it essentially tells you to make

834
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: a little smile so that you know you're smiling, but

835
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 2: that you look like crazy to other people. Right, So

836
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: other people can't really tell. They might see that you

837
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 2: might look slightly different and maybe a little more approachable

838
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: than you normally would with a BRF. But it has

839
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 2: been shown again anecdotally that it actually does increase your

840
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 2: your sense of positivity. I know that sounds hippy dippy,

841
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 2: but I believe it actually works.

842
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: What's BRF.

843
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 2: Be resting face?

844
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: Oh? Okay, I always heard I've never heard it in

845
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: that order.

846
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: Uh, what do you hear?

847
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: It is?

848
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 3: RBF?

849
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: Man? I am off today we're going to edit that

850
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:37,879
Speaker 2: part out too.

851
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: I think you're doing great. This is a capital episode.

852
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 2: Let's see. Oh there's one other thing too. One more

853
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: stuf's here and again. Social psychologists take it with a

854
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: grain of salt, but they found that service employees who

855
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: have to engage in surface acting, meaning like part of

856
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 2: your job is smiling and seeming happy whether you are

857
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 2: or not, tend to be heavier drinkers than people outside

858
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 2: of the service industry. That's sad, it is, and that

859
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 2: explains why hotel reception people are constantly blotto. If you've

860
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: ever noticed, when you check in, they are wasted to

861
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: a person. That's why, because they're forced to smile.

862
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 3: That's right, makes sense. You got anything else, man, I

863
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 3: got nothing else.

864
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 2: This was great, new and improved smiling happiness episode.

865
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: It was new.

866
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: Okay. I guess that means it's time for listener mate.

867
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 1: That's right.

868
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,959
Speaker 3: Might as well finish this one with a correction, you know.

869
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we should. Hey guys from twenty eleven, first.

870
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 3: Time corrector here.

871
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: No.

872
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 3: I wanted to say we love the immense amount of

873
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 3: work you put into educating so many people and so

874
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 3: many topics for so long. My partner and I are

875
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 3: so excited to see your live show in Ottawa, Ontario. Yeah,

876
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 3: capital of the Great White and North. And yeah, it's

877
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 3: probably a good time to mention we're going to six

878
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,439
Speaker 3: different places in Canada in June and July and we're

879
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 3: super excited. We're trying to move some more tickets in

880
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 3: a couple of these, specifically Montreal. So if you're in

881
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 3: and around Montreal, I mean, this is it, this is

882
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 3: your shot.

883
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 1: We'd love to see you there.

884
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, all right, So quick email guys about the

885
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 3: a minor historical mix up in the Hindenburg disaster episode.

886
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: Josh.

887
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 3: One of you stated, thank you check that the US

888
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 3: ace Eddie Rickenbacker took out German ace the Red Baron,

889
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 3: Manfred von Richtofen.

890
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: But that's not the case. I'm sorry.

891
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 3: The Red Baron was killed on April twenty first, nineteen eighteen,

892
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 3: over the Soalmme. He was loaded the ground chasing an

893
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 3: inexperienced Canadian pilot, Lieutenant Wilfrid May. Canadian Royal Air Force

894
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 3: pilot Captain Arthur Roy Brown drove steeply to defend May

895
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 3: and fired at the Baron's Spoker triplane. While Brown was

896
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 3: officially credited with the kill. Modern ballistics, medical exams and

897
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 3: historians favor the theory that the fatal bullet came from

898
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 3: Australian ground troops who saw them coming. Specifically, it's widely

899
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 3: believed to have been fired by Sergeant Cedric Popkin or

900
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 3: gunners Robert Buey and William Snowy Evans, as Rick Doopin

901
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 3: flew dangerously low over Allied lines. As for Eddie Rickenbacker,

902
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 3: he didn't even see active aerial combat until April nineteen eighteen,

903
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 3: the very month the Red Baron died.

904
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 2: So, I mean, I'm not a crackpot, right, Like that's

905
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 2: what we've been taught all these years that Eddie Rickenbacker

906
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 2: took out the Red Baron.

907
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: Right, I have no idea.

908
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 2: This isn't like a Jacqueline Bessett Jacqueline Smith type thing.

909
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 3: I have no idea because I don't I'm not steeped

910
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 3: in that kind of stuff. Like if you say red Baron,

911
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 3: I think of Snoopy.

912
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 2: I do too, But I'm saying like, I've never done

913
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 2: any World War One flying ace research. This was literally

914
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 2: taught to me in school as far as I can recall.

915
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 3: Well, hey, I believe that I'm just saying, I just

916
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 3: don't recall.

917
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 2: Well, that's funny, so I wonder who really, who really

918
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 2: did it? Because Australia's got their people, Canada's got their people.

919
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 2: We have our people. Who knows.

920
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, my money's on Snowy Evans.

921
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 2: Okay, I think that's great. I'll put my money on

922
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 2: Snowy too. Sorry, Rick and Bucker.

923
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's anonymous.

924
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 3: By the way, that was a guy and his partner

925
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 3: who were big history buffs.

926
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: I'm not sure why it was anonymous. There's nothing.

927
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 3: I guess they just don't what their name said. So

928
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 3: that's I guess we'll see the anonymous people in Ottawa.

929
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 3: They'll be out there with sacks over their heads.

930
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure, Thank you Anonymous. Yeah that wasn't so controversial,

931
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 2: but well, okay, we'll definitely always respect your privacy. We'll

932
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 2: respect your privacy too. If you write to us and

933
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 2: you're like, do not read my name, we will never

934
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 2: do that.

935
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 3: You know what I bet it is is they don't

936
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 3: want to be outed as going to that show because

937
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 3: they told their friends, so they don't really like that

938
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 3: wanted to go with them that they weren't going.

939
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 2: Oh ouch, I'll bet you're right. Yeah, Or some friend

940
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 2: asked them to move or drive them to the airport

941
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,720
Speaker 2: and they're like, we're going to out of town.

942
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're having a painting party.

943
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 2: Let's see. Well, I guess that's it. And if you oh,

944
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: like I was saying, if you want to be like anonymous,

945
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 2: and even if you want to remain anonymous, send us

946
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 2: an email. Send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio

947
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 2: dot com.

948
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

949
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 3: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

950
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.