1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent. 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, 9 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: let's get to the show. Joining us now is Tim Mack, 10 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: live from Kiev. He's the founder of The counter Offensive, 11 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: which is a news organization specifically dedicated and focusing for 12 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 2: what's going on inside of Ukraine. It's good to see you, Tim, 13 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 2: Great to see you, absolutely so. 14 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 4: Tim. 15 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 2: You're joining us for the two year anniversary of the 16 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 2: war in Ukraine of the Russian invasion. You've done some 17 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 2: fantastic work at the counter Offensive. There's a link down 18 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: in the description. We encourage everybody to go and to 19 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: support it. Just to tell us a little bit about 20 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: the actual operations that were happening to mark this occasion. 21 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 2: You actually wrote a very interesting story about one of 22 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: the most important battles that's actually happened so far in 23 00:00:58,560 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: the war, and why don't you just tell us a 24 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: little bit about it. 25 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the battle is a battle called the Battle 26 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: of Antonov Airfield, and what happened there was, in the 27 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: first seventy two hours of the full scale invasion, the 28 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: Russia's Russia's most elite airborne units landed at this airfield 29 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: trying to secure it so that large cargo planes come 30 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: in with armored vehicles and thousands of other Russian soldiers 31 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: and surround and destroy and occupy Kiev. And so our 32 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: story that's out on counter Offensive News is all about 33 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: eyewitness accounts from that battle and how close they came 34 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: to losing it, that is, the Ukrainians, as well as 35 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: how close Kiev came to fallen. I mean, had that 36 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: battle not turned out the way it did, Zelensky might 37 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: have been killed, as was a Russian primary objective in 38 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: those early hours and days, and Kiev might have fallen 39 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: as well. Now, it really was won just by a 40 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: little bit of a threat. I mean Ukrainian artillery only 41 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: four pieces were available that day. They managed to fire 42 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: on the airfield and prevent Russian forces from landing there 43 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: and pushed Russian forces back. 44 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: So tim one of the things that you've been focusing 45 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 2: on from drawing from the battle, then, is then the 46 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: next two years or so of the war. Why was 47 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 2: that battle so foundational to kind of like the lore 48 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: of the Ukrainian military, its ability to push back those 49 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: Russian forces, and how does it square with some of 50 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: the things that you are seeing on the ground today. 51 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: Well, it's set the stage and the conditions for the 52 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: whole war after that that Russia was not able to 53 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: establish that quick lightning strike seventy two hour occupation of Kiev, 54 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: and they were ultimately driven out of the Kiev region 55 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 1: and later out of the Harki region in the east. 56 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: So the battle lines that we see drawn now are 57 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 1: very much the results of this first seventy two hours 58 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: in around the Kiev area. But that prevented Russian troops 59 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: into it, from flying into the capital, and made the 60 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: work of the Russian military much much harder, to the 61 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: extent that years later they're still trying to work back west. 62 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: I mean, had that battle not turned out in the 63 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: way it did, we might be talking about a situation 64 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: where Zelenski was ultimately killed. We might be talking about 65 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: the war taking place in western Ukraine right now instead 66 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: of Eastern Ukraine. I mean, it set the stage for 67 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: so much more to come, and it was just one 68 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: of those battles built out of epic desperation. You know, 69 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: there's a story in this in this report that we 70 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: did about members soldiers that were supporting Ukraine running out 71 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: of ammunition and while making an AMMO run, running essentially 72 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: hitting Russian soldiers with their car that they saw walking 73 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: along the side of the road. That was how desperate 74 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: a god is that they would use any means they could, 75 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: whatsoever to fight back. 76 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: Tim how do we relate this battled some of the 77 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: major discussions happening here in Washington right now around aid 78 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 2: to Ukraine. I'm curious to somebody who's actually there what 79 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: you can tell us about some of the morale stories 80 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 2: that have come forward, recruitment debates inside the Ukrainian government 81 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: about mobilization the new commander, How does that fit with 82 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: what we're seeing right now? 83 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I have to say that the morale 84 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: in Kiev and other parts in the country are really 85 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: quite low. You know, from the American perspective, America has 86 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: enjoyed a lot of support from Ukrainians and a lot 87 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,119 Speaker 1: of thankfulness from Ukrainians over the last two years. 88 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 3: But I think at this. 89 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: Point there is a concern in Kiev that the tide 90 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 1: of war might be turning against them, and this is 91 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: one of those moments where a major American strategic victory 92 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: might turn into a major American strategic defeat, simply because 93 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: it feels from the perspective a lot of Ukrainians that 94 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: the United States hasn't kind of kept up there under 95 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: the deal and supported them when they need them the most. 96 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: You know, Ukrainians do believe that if they're properly supplied 97 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: in long run, that they can hold their territory and 98 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: push back against the Russians. I think the Battle of 99 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: Antonov Airfield shows what can happen when even not so 100 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: well equipped Ukrainians are pushing back against people trying to 101 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: take their territory and hurt their families. So Ukrainians very 102 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: much still believe that if they're properly equipped and aided 103 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: by their allies, they can push back and win this war. 104 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: I mean, victory is a kind of ambiguous idea, but 105 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of confidence that if they get the 106 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: support that they need and they've been asking for from 107 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: the West, they can certainly succeed. That's the risk. That's 108 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: the moment we have here as we enter the third 109 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: year of the full scale invasion, is Ukrainians looking at 110 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: the West, who had promised them support until the very end, 111 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: not holding up their end of the deal. 112 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, and you mentioned their hold their territory and victory. 113 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: Just from your conversation with people in Ukraine, what does 114 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: victory look like? 115 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,799 Speaker 1: You ask one hundred people, you get one hundred different answers. 116 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: I think to some it could mean the continuance of 117 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: democracy and the ability for free people that choose who 118 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: their political leaders are in Ukraine. For others, it could 119 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: be a territorial issue, the re establishment of Ukrainian holdings 120 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: of territories based on a certain date. One senior Ukrainian 121 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: official made a really interesting comment saying that he will 122 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: know when victory has come when they're able to go 123 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: to the airport and Key and fly to the Hague 124 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: where they will be able to see Gutin and other 125 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: top Russian officials get tried for war crimes. And so 126 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: that two elements of that is the resumption of commercial 127 00:06:55,400 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: airline services and accountability for crimes committed as Ukraine. So 128 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: there are so many elements here, right. It can be territory, 129 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: it can be economic, it can be legal. So you 130 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: ask a lot of people, you get a lot of 131 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: different answers. But I think that if you're looking holistically, 132 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: all of those, in some way will be part of 133 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: what your average Ukrainian will believe victory includes. 134 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 5: Well. 135 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: I appreciate your perspective. It's rare to actually get somebody 136 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: who's on the ground there. I encourage everybody to go 137 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: and read Tim The counter Offensive. There's a link down 138 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 2: in the description. We encourage everyone to go subscribe. Appreciate 139 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: you joining us, sir, Thank you. 140 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 4: Welcome to Breaking Points Beyond the Headlines. My name is 141 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 4: James Lee. Over the years, you might have heard a 142 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 4: little or a lot about the Church of Scientology. It's 143 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 4: high profile association with Hollywood A listers like Tom Cruise 144 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 4: and John Travolta have long lent the institution a veneer 145 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 4: of glamour and legitimacy. However, the recent sexual assault conviction 146 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 4: against Danny Masterson, an active member of the church, and 147 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 4: a lawsuit filed by former member Leah Ramini against the church, 148 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 4: have revealed cracks in their carefully curated image. Today we 149 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 4: dive into this mysterious and controversial organization. 150 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 6: Seventy five million years ago, the galaxy was ruled by 151 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 6: a tyrant named Zeno. One day, Zanu rounded up various 152 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 6: wrong dudes and imprisoned them in volcanoes on Earth, which 153 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 6: was then called Tigiak. This is the world according to 154 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 6: church founder l. 155 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 3: Ron Hubbard. 156 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:46,359 Speaker 6: Hydrogen bombs were dropped on them. Then their spirits, called thetans, 157 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 6: were trapped in humans. That is the cause of all 158 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 6: our sufferings. Only through scientology can our theatans be clear. 159 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 4: Wow, I think we're gonna need some expert help to 160 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 4: unpack all of that. So joining us today on Breaking 161 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 4: Points is a former scientologist and host of Growing Up 162 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 4: in Scientology on YouTube, Aaron Smith Levin. 163 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 5: Welcome, thanks for having me. 164 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 4: Okay, so I just played for the audience a little 165 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 4: clip of l. 166 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 5: Ron Hubbard. 167 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 4: He's talking about Xenu spirits and exercising thetans. Can you 168 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 4: break down for us in a simple term as possible, 169 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 4: what is the core teachings and practices of scientology. 170 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 5: I'll do my best. 171 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 7: The core teachings and practices do actually change as someone 172 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 7: goes up the levels in scientology. There's levels that are 173 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 7: non confidential, and at the higher end there's levels that 174 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 7: are confidential. So the thing about Xenu and the body Thetans, 175 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 7: most scientologists don't actually know about that. 176 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 5: Believe it or not. 177 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 7: So the most fair and charitable description that I can 178 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 7: give you for what scientologists believe. All scientologists believe, even 179 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 7: at the lowest level, is they believe that everyone here 180 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 7: on Earth is an immortal spiritual being. Their word for 181 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 7: that is the Ten. People say it sounds like Satan 182 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 7: with a lisp, but it's just Thetan. Scientologists don't believe 183 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 7: in a heaven or a hell. They just believe that 184 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,359 Speaker 7: Thetan's just continue. 185 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 5: To exist forever. 186 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,119 Speaker 7: Uh, that this body is just sort of a temporary 187 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 7: vessel when when your body dies, you just pick up 188 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 7: another body and live lifetime after lifetime after lifetime. 189 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 5: Now there's another aspect to this. 190 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 7: Which is that, uh, they believe Earth is actually a 191 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 7: prison planet, and that the Thetans who are sort of 192 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 7: sentenced to live lifetime after lifetime here on Earth are 193 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 7: here because they've kind of been banished here as as. 194 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 5: A punishment sort of. 195 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 7: That this is quite literally a prison and that normally 196 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 7: a Thetan in native state that wasn't in this prison 197 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 7: planet would have full and total recall of all their 198 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 7: previous lives, because you know, a Thetan just exists forever, 199 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 7: and that the reason we only remember one lifetime at 200 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 7: a time is that every time we die, we as Thetans, 201 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 7: are sort of pre programmed as a part of our 202 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 7: prison sentence to report into these these stations called the 203 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 7: between lives implant stations that wipe our memories but from 204 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 7: lifetime to lifetime, and that we're programmed to then shoot 205 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 7: back down to Earth and pick up a new body 206 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 7: and just live a new lifetime with completely amnesia of 207 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 7: not only our previous lives but our our native godlike 208 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 7: spiritual potential. Well does that do a little bit of 209 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 7: a service for now? 210 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 4: I know it sounds a lot like a blend between 211 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 4: science fiction and religion, a little bit of that coming together. 212 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 5: That's right now. 213 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 7: You might go, okay with that fundamental belief system, what 214 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 7: is scientology actually doing with that belief system? Well, scientology 215 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 7: has a one on one form of counseling therapy. They 216 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 7: call it auditing, and scientologists believe that with enough auditing 217 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 7: you can regain enough of your spiritual awareness and power 218 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 7: to skip to bypass these between lives implant stations, and 219 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 7: to regain your ability to. 220 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 5: Have a total recall of your previous lives. 221 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 7: And that the goal of scientology is to get enough 222 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 7: people into scientology, and that one scientologists succeed in getting 223 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 7: enough at least half of the population of Earth up 224 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 7: through these levels and unplugging them from the matrix. Basically, 225 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 7: that we will, instead of reincarnating to Earth, will reincarnate 226 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 7: to the next planet and get the cycle started on 227 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 7: the next planet. 228 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 5: They call it Target two. 229 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 7: Now, what's crazy is that like ninety percent of scientologists 230 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 7: in the world don't know anything about the Xenu story. 231 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 7: They've never heard the word body, the ten. They don't 232 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 7: know anything about that part of it. They only know 233 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 7: about your own reactive mind and trying to get rid 234 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 7: of your your own reactive mind. So I don't know 235 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 7: that that's the three minute elevator pitch for Scientology. 236 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 4: I know this this can also be a long answer too, 237 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 4: but can you give the viewers a little bit of 238 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 4: the skinny on your journey in and out of scientology, 239 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 4: when you joined, when it is and why that you've left, 240 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 4: and a little bit about the in between and also 241 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 4: the post scientology experience. 242 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 5: Sure. 243 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 7: So I was four years old when my mom got 244 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 7: involved in Scientology. She was introduced by a friend of hers, 245 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 7: which is how most people get into Scientology. Some friend 246 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 7: introduces them. 247 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 5: So I was four. 248 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 7: Some of my earliest memories in life is just being 249 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 7: in the Scientology organization in downtown Philadelphia with you know, 250 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 7: a whole bunch of other Scientology kids in the nursery there. 251 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 5: I lived a relatively My mom joined staff. 252 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 7: So instead of being what Scientology would call a public scientologist, 253 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 7: that's someone who pays to do Scientology courses or who 254 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 7: pays to receive Scientology auditing, which, by the way, auditing 255 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 7: costs between two hundred to five hundred dollars per hour. 256 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 7: It's not cheap. So she joined staff. That means you 257 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 7: work for Scientology. It's like your day job, and the 258 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 7: Scientology courses and auditing that you get you don't. 259 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 5: Have to pay for them. So that's why a lot 260 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 5: of people joined staff. 261 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 7: So as a kid, I lived a relatively normal life 262 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 7: until about twelve years old. I went to public school 263 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 7: and everything like that. When I was twelve, my mom 264 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 7: took me and my brother, my stepbrother, my step sister, 265 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 7: two of her friends kids pulled us all out of 266 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 7: school and we all started working full time for Scientology 267 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 7: in Philadelphia, and then we moved down to Clearwater, Florida 268 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 7: to do Scientology training down there. So you know, from 269 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 7: the age of twelve to twenty six, I worked full 270 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 7: time for Scientology. I did not go to high school. 271 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 7: I did not finish middle school. I do not have 272 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 7: a diploma or an equivalency degree or anything like that. 273 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 7: I ended up joining what Scientology calls the Sea Organization. 274 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 5: That's like their most dedicated core of staff members. You're in. 275 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 7: If you're in the Sea Org, it's not just your 276 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 7: day job, it's your entire existence. It's twenty four seven, 277 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 7: three sixty five. It's all you do. You don't own property, 278 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 7: you don't you don't own. You can only have a 279 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 7: relationship with other Sea Org members have children in the 280 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 7: Sea Org. Such as their dedication to the cause. So 281 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 7: after a certain amount of years, I met my wife 282 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 7: and got married in the Sea Organization. 283 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 5: After a certain number of years, we. 284 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 7: Were just a little fed up with kind of how 285 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 7: unfulfilling and abuse of the experience of working in the 286 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 7: Sea York was so we got pregnant, knowing well that 287 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 7: we would have. 288 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 5: To leave the Sea Organization. 289 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 7: So we left the Sea Org because we're having a baby, 290 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 7: but we were still public scientologists for a while. That 291 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 7: started to change in two thousand and nine when the 292 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 7: Tampa Bay Times back then it was the Saint Pete 293 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 7: Times published a series of interviews with very high ranking 294 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 7: former Sea Org executives, people who had been famous personalities 295 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 7: in scientology. These people had not only left the Sea Organization, 296 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 7: but had left scientology altogether and were speaking out for 297 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 7: the first time. So these former executives who were starting 298 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 7: to speak out were telling the most horrific stories of abuse, 299 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 7: of imprisonment, of quite literal torture, not quite guantanamal level, 300 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 7: but close. And for me that was like the first 301 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 7: major crack in the dam of going uh oh. A 302 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 7: lot of things I have believed were true my entire 303 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 7: life are clearly not true. I don't know exactly where 304 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 7: everything stands, but something's not right. For about the next 305 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 7: three or four years, I was on a pretty gradual 306 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 7: path of discovery of what exactly the lies were. 307 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: And. 308 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 5: It quickly became clear to me that it was pretty 309 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 5: much all lies. 310 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 7: And part of the tail end of that path for 311 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 7: me had to do with I mentioned earlier that there's 312 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 7: non confidential levels and there's confidential levels. 313 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 5: Well there's levels even above the confidential levels. 314 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 7: They're so secret, they're so confidential they've never been released yet, they're. 315 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 5: Still in the vault. 316 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 7: It's like the magic right, and it's sort of the 317 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 7: carrot that gets dangled in front of the faces of 318 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 7: Scientology says guys, we need to work a little bit harder, 319 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 7: we need to donate a little bit more money, because 320 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 7: l Ron Hubbard said, these unreleased levels can't be released 321 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 7: until Scientology reaches certain expansion benchmarks, so we just. 322 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 5: Need to try a little bit harder. 323 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 7: Well, once I found out from people who I knew 324 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 7: would actually know that there ain't no such thing as 325 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 7: these upper confidential levels. L Ron Hubbard did not leave 326 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 7: behind anything. They looked everywhere, They looked through all of 327 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 7: his papers and his files and his records and his cabinets, 328 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 7: and there ain't nothing. 329 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 5: I was like, someone should have told me that twenty 330 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 5: five years ago. I'm ready to get out of my 331 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 5: life before I do. 332 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 4: Want to get into the controversy a little bit that 333 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 4: you're alluding to this control type of thing, But I 334 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 4: didn't want to ask you what do things people just 335 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 4: in the world, What do we get wrong about scientology? 336 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 4: Because I'm certain there has to be some positive aspects 337 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 4: to scientology or else no one would join. 338 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 5: Let me answer two different ways. 339 00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 7: I think one thing that people would get wrong about 340 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 7: stology is just not truly understanding that most scientologists have 341 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:05,239 Speaker 7: never heard that. 342 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 5: Uh. 343 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 7: Most scientologists don't do not know anything about the Zen 344 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 7: New story or the Body Thintan story. Scientologists know everything 345 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 7: that I explained early on about the Between Lives, implant 346 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 7: stations and the prison planet, and you know, the Galactic 347 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 7: Federation and all sorts of stuff. They've just never heard 348 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 7: the Xen New story. So if you've seen South Park, 349 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 7: you know more about scientology than most scientologists do. 350 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 5: Uh. 351 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 7: And to answer the question the other way, at the 352 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 7: lowest introductory levels, scientology is actually very practical, sort of 353 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 7: helpful in like a self helpy, uh, personal coach, guru 354 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 7: motivation Tony Robbins, Zish Grant cardone who just happens to 355 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 7: be a scientologist. You know, uh, we we can, you can, 356 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 7: you can fix all your problems just hustle a little harder, 357 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 7: pull yourself up. 358 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 5: By your bootstraps. People, people who end u joining Scientologic, 359 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 5: they don't think they're joining a cult. 360 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 7: And at the very lowest levels, scientology doesn't feel like 361 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 7: a cult. It feels self empowering. It's giving you a 362 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 7: positive message. You can you can overcome any obstacle, you 363 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 7: can solve any problem. You are all powerful negatively. All 364 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 7: you need is the right tools, and for nine ninety nine. 365 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 5: We can give you those tools. So but but. 366 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 7: Honestly, I wonder, I mean, the question was what most 367 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 7: people get wrong about scientology? 368 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 5: I wonder how many people actually understand that. 369 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 4: On the flip side of that, what is so? If 370 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 4: there's all these good things about scientology, it's practical, gives 371 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 4: you these kind of self help tools. What's the worst part? 372 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 4: Why do people like why you? You said you were driven 373 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 4: to leave because of certain things that you saw? Is 374 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 4: the Is it the secrecy? Is it the control they 375 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 4: exert over people's lives seemingly? Is it the leadership? Is it? 376 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 4: David Misscabbage corruption? What's your opinion on what? Why where 377 00:19:58,520 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 4: does scientology go wrong? 378 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 7: In my personal opinion, the easiest answer to the question 379 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 7: is where it just overtly goes out of its way 380 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 7: to destroy families, the family unit, because scientology has this 381 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 7: belief like we're all just basically sixty some trillion year 382 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 7: old beings. They have this belief like if you have 383 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 7: a child, that's not really your child, it's just your 384 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 7: body gave birth to that body, but you're a Thetan 385 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 7: and that body is animated by a Thetan, and Thetans 386 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 7: don't give birth to Thetan's. Theatans are just all natively 387 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 7: godlike entities. 388 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 5: So this, this. 389 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 7: Belief completely minimizes the value of familial relationships, and scientology 390 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 7: will demand that people sever all ties with anyone in 391 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 7: their life who is negative about scientology, and it doesn't 392 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 7: matter if that's your mom, dad, you know, spouse, brother, sisters, son, 393 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 7: or daughter. To me, that is where scientology gets really 394 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 7: really bad. Now there's financial aspects as well, so because 395 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 7: scientology holds that, you know, this entire existence is really 396 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 7: just the matrix anyway, and you know, higher education is pointless, 397 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 7: retirement accounts are pointless, Saving these accounts are pointless. 398 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 5: The only thing that. 399 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 7: Could possibly have any value in this lifetime is helping 400 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 7: scientology expand and get more people into Scientology and up 401 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 7: Scientology bridge to total freedom those that whole construct leads 402 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 7: to just financial decimation of Scientologists. Now, when I mentioned 403 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 7: before that the experience working in the sea or just 404 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 7: got to the point where it was not fulfilling and 405 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 7: it was abusive. El Ron Hubbard created this management system 406 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 7: where he says there is no natural, explainable reason why 407 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 7: stats would ever go down. In order for stats to 408 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 7: go down, somebody has to actively be forcing them down, 409 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 7: in sabotaging the organization and to make them go down. Well, 410 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 7: unfortunately for Scientology staff members, Scientology is shrinking, not growing. 411 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 7: So there's this constant witch hunt happening internally in the 412 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 7: organization to find. 413 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 5: Out who is it that's sabotage in the organization. 414 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 7: Now, the problem is you can never point the finger up. 415 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 7: You can only ever point the finger down. So it's 416 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 7: the lower level staff members that are constantly just being 417 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 7: harassed and interrogated and punished for the fact that more 418 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 7: new people aren't coming into Scientology. 419 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 5: When the reality is the people. 420 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 7: At the lower levels of the organization have absolutely no 421 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 7: control over the reason why Scientology is shrinking. You know, 422 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 7: they have absolutely no control over it, and so the 423 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 7: experience of working for Scientology everyone is just always pointing 424 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 7: fingers at each other and witch hunts all the time, 425 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 7: and it's just exhausting. 426 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to pivot to talking a little bit 427 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 4: about the work that I think this ties in the 428 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 4: work that you do today. So you live stream almost 429 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 4: every day, I think every day or almost every day, 430 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 4: you have conversations with other people about Scientology. So I'm wondering, 431 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 4: what is your goal. Is it to get people out 432 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 4: of Scientology? Is it bringing attention? Is it pressuring the 433 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 4: government or the irs to remove its taxes? 434 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 5: M status? 435 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 4: What's your motivation? 436 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 5: It's definitely all of those things. 437 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 7: Sometimes on my channel I will say fundamentally, I'm simply 438 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 7: motivated by pure revenge and if I can do as 439 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 7: much good in the process. But success is the best revenge. 440 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 7: And so I define success as making sure that former scientologists, 441 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 7: who have their their own stories that highlight how abusive 442 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 7: and destructive scientologists policies and practices are, that all of 443 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 7: those voices can and can get as big of a reach, 444 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 7: as far as a reach, and be heard as loudly 445 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 7: as possible. And I almost relish the fact that We're 446 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 7: all doing it with just phones and computers and no budget, 447 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 7: whereas Scientology spends hundreds of millions of dollars on the 448 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 7: most expensive professional you know av operation possible. And yet 449 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 7: the voices of former scientologists who are telling the actual 450 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 7: truth about scientology are being heard louder with no budget 451 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 7: than everything Scientology can muster. 452 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 4: You mentioned earlier that scientology is on the decline. So 453 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 4: what I'm wondering is what do you think is the 454 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 4: outlook for scientology over the next few years to a decade. 455 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 4: Is this something that we need to actively pay attention 456 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 4: to or is it going to die out on its own? 457 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 5: Just let things play out. 458 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 4: Where do you see things going? 459 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 7: Yeah, interestingly enough, at a little bit of the both 460 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 7: of what you said there, it. 461 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 5: Is dying out on its own. 462 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 7: I do think it still deserves to have attention paid 463 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 7: to it, and it deserves to have its the speed 464 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 7: of its demise accelerated. I certainly enjoy contributing to the 465 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 7: acceleration of that demise. Now, practically speaking, I don't think 466 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 7: Scientology ever ceases to exist unless you succeed in getting 467 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 7: its tax exemption taken away. It already has its tax 468 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 7: exemption taken away once before the IRS determined that Elvern 469 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 7: Hubbard was personally in rich himself from Scientology, and it 470 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 7: stripped Scientology of his tax exemption. In nineteen ninety three, 471 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,959 Speaker 7: it won that tax exemption back after a years long 472 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 7: process of harassing thousands of IRS agents. Personally, Scientology is 473 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 7: probably the only organization in history that succeeded. 474 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 5: In bringing the IRS to its needs. 475 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 7: It is my hope that sort of what we're doing 476 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 7: here with SPTV and a whole bunch of other activists 477 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 7: who are doing similar things who've never had anything to 478 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 7: do with Scientology, that we will eventually succeed in getting 479 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 7: enough grassroots support for revoking Scientology's tax exempt status that 480 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 7: members of Congress will take it up as a popular cause, 481 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 7: and that eventually, I hope, within the next ten years, 482 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 7: we will succeed in getting Scientology's tax. 483 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 5: Exem status revoked. 484 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 7: Even if Scientology keeps its tax exempt status, its membership 485 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 7: will continue to decline. But the problem with having this 486 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 7: this tax exemption is because it has a special type 487 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 7: of religious tax exemption that protects it in the courts. 488 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 7: Like if you sue Scientology and you try to get 489 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 7: the judge to look at a particular policy letter in Scientology, 490 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 7: the judge will go, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's religious scripture. 491 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 7: I'm not even allowed to pass to give an opinion 492 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 7: on whether that's abusive or not. And also, because they're 493 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 7: tax exempt, they're operating. Their operating expenses are as close 494 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 7: to zero as you can get. They do not pay 495 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 7: property tax, and they do not have any pay They do. 496 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 5: Not have a payroll. 497 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 7: All of their staff members are considered volunteers. They don't 498 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 7: have to pay any of them, and even the ones 499 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 7: they do have make like, you know, fifty bucks a 500 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 7: week or less. So Scientology probably makes more interest on 501 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 7: its cash reserves than it costs to keep all the 502 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 7: organizations in the world open. Electric and water is the 503 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 7: only expenses Scientology has. So they will continue to exist 504 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 7: as an entity as long as they have tax exemption. 505 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 5: And that's why I think getting that tax exemption revoked. 506 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 7: Is a worthy cause, even if their membership will continue 507 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 7: to dwindle on its own. There's less than thirty thousand 508 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 7: members in the entire world. I mean, it's probably closer 509 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 7: to twenty thousand at this point. 510 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 4: All right, I think we have there's actually probably a 511 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 4: lot more than we have time for today, So Erin, 512 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 4: I want to give you an opportunity to tell people 513 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 4: where they can find you find more of what you do, 514 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 4: what you're talking about, whether it's on YouTube or other platforms. 515 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 7: Growing up in scientology on YouTube is where I focus 516 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 7: all of my efforts. I've got socials and stuff, but 517 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 7: you know, growing up in scientology on YouTube is my 518 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 7: central thing. 519 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 5: Everyone can just find me there, all. 520 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 4: Right, awesome, We'll link down below and everybody go follow. 521 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 4: Erin really appreciate your time today, thanks for joining us. 522 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 5: Thank you. 523 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 4: If you'd like to learn more about the growing grassroots 524 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 4: protest movement against scientology, I recently joined some of the 525 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 4: protesters on Hollywood Boulevard to do some on the ground 526 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 4: and behind the scenes reporting. The video is live over 527 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 4: on my YouTube channel fifty one to forty nine with 528 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 4: James Lee. Hit on over. Check that out, give me 529 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 4: a follow. The link will be in the description below. 530 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 4: As always, thank you so much for watching Breaking Points, 531 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 4: and I appreciate your time today. 532 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 3: Joining me is My good friend is Johnny Burka. 533 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 2: He's the president and CEO of ISI, the Intercollegiate Studies Institute. 534 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 3: But for our purposes. 535 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: He is the author of a brand new book that 536 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: we have here in front of us. Gateway to Statesmanship 537 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: is the selections from Xenophon to Churchhill has been edited 538 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 2: with an intro by you, Johnny. 539 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 3: So it's great to see you, my friend. Thank you 540 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 3: jn Thanks for having me. 541 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 5: Saga. 542 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 2: All right, So why did you decide to assemble this book? 543 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 2: What is the purpose behind a book about statesman? As 544 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 2: if there hasn't been a million already? 545 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 8: Why this is It's pretty simple, but you say there's 546 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 8: been a million. But in America we have this genre 547 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 8: of self help books for entrepreneurs. There's a million of them, 548 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 8: Peter Chiel zero to one, Jim Collins good to great, 549 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 8: but nothing really comparable exists for statesmen. We have a 550 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 8: lot of books about historic statesmen. But this book is 551 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 8: really a collection of practical self help leadership advice that 552 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 8: was presented to political leaders going all the way back 553 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 8: to antiquity in East and West, really connecting the world 554 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 8: of theory to the world of action so that they 555 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 8: can better govern their country. 556 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 3: So who are some of the people that are included 557 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 3: in here? 558 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 2: You have Xenophon to Churchill, So there's a lot of 559 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 2: people in between that, so give us a taste of 560 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: some of the people we're pulling from. 561 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 8: Absolutely, so in the ancient world, I have Han Fei, 562 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 8: who's any Chinese legalist in India. I have Catilia who 563 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 8: wrote a book the Arthur Shastra, which I've included selections from. 564 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 8: And then in the Middle Ages, I have Goppitis's letters 565 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 8: to Justinian the Great. I have some Thomas Aquinas in there, 566 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 8: and of course as we get to the Renaissance, we 567 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 8: have Machiavelli, Thomas Moore, and Erasmus. And then I brought 568 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 8: the tradition up to date and included some Churchill and 569 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 8: de gaul and Theodore Roosevelt. 570 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 3: I'm a big Degall fan. 571 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: May maybe controversial, but I think he was a very 572 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: very interesting leader. So if we're going to look through 573 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: the book and where can consider this, were great statesmen 574 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 2: made by the moment? 575 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 3: Did they rely on a lot of previous of Churchill? 576 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 2: For example, it's very well read, probably could be quote 577 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: by many accounts. I could quote Roman poetry off the 578 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: top of his head. I don't think Degall was as 579 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 2: educated as him per se. Roosevelt certainly, you know he 580 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: was of a patrician class, but he was more of 581 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: an instinctual type of leader. 582 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 3: So what is it do you have to read self 583 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 3: help advice? 584 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 4: Like? 585 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 3: Do you need a book like this? 586 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:23,959 Speaker 8: Do? 587 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 3: Some do? Some don't? 588 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 2: And why do we not seem to have statesmans as 589 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 2: many statesmen today as we did back in the past. 590 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 8: Yeah, So, really, a great statesman arises when two things intersect. 591 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 8: Virtue on one hand, that's you know, the moral, the 592 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 8: intellectual qualities, but on the other hand, fortune has to 593 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 8: align with their particular moment. If George Washington was born 594 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 8: ten years earlier or ten years later, we might not 595 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 8: know his name. America might not exist as it does today. 596 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 8: But take someone like Charles Degall, who you mentioned that 597 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 8: you're a fan of. So Degall actually wrote this book 598 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 8: called The Edge of the Sword, and I've included the 599 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 8: selection in there. And he wrote this book when he 600 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 8: was in his early thirties. He hadn't accomplished anything in life. 601 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 8: He sat during World War One as a prisoner of 602 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 8: war and mostly drank coffee, smoked cigarettes, and wrote old books. 603 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 8: And so he sat down and he actually articulated the 604 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 8: qualities that he wanted to see in an ideal political leader, 605 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 8: and he had this profound sense that he would one 606 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 8: day lead in rule France. And then the political moment 607 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 8: aligned and he of course led the resistance to the 608 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 8: Nazi invasion, founded the Fifth French Republic and served it, 609 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 8: served as as president for ten years. So there's a 610 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 8: delicate interplay between harnessing fortune for your political rise. 611 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 3: Why do you think we don't have that many good statesmen? 612 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 2: You had an interesting question I remember on Twitter, You're like, 613 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 2: who is the last goods? Who's the last living statesman? 614 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 2: I can't come up with a single answer. I think 615 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: Kissinger was the last great one that we had. You 616 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,239 Speaker 2: can hate him, you can love him. But he had 617 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: a coherent ideology. He was very well rooted. He had 618 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 2: accomplished a lot in his life. Again, whether it was 619 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 2: good and or bad. Everybody else just seemed to kind 620 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 2: of be bumbling along. I mean, even some of the 621 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 2: bigger mistakes that have been made, you know, Iraq and 622 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: all that was not part of a grand ideological project, 623 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 2: at least per se in the Kissingerian sense. 624 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 3: So what is it? Why is in the last thirty 625 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 3: years we have no gray station? 626 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 8: Sure? I think there's really two reasons. One at the 627 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 8: beginning of the progressive era. This is going back one 628 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 8: hundred years ago. There was a shift away from statesmanship 629 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 8: classically understood to management, expertise, bureaucracy. So the art of 630 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 8: the statesman has been lost. And then secondly, I think 631 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 8: it really comes to our educational system. If you go 632 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 8: back to the education of Cyrus describing Xenophon's education, right, 633 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 8: he was raised in almost a spartan culture. I'm not 634 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 8: saying we should bring back that level of rigor, but 635 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 8: basically they taught him the principle of restraint, self control, 636 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 8: mastery of self from a very young age, and that 637 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 8: played a big role in his shaping his leadership abilities. Today, 638 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 8: we really don't read any old books, any classic books. 639 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 8: We don't teach students to think or to write the 640 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 8: way that we do. I think we saw this recently 641 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 8: with the controversy at Harvard and so many other elite meebers. 642 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 3: That's a good point. That's a good point. 643 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: So you write, leadership requires painting a beautiful portrait of 644 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 2: the world that you'd like to inhabit and installing confidence 645 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 2: that you are the best person to make it a reality. 646 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 2: In an age where truth and goodness have lost their 647 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 2: potency beauty and and wiser minds have noted could save 648 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 2: the world. So how do you bring that back in 649 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 2: an error where look, institutional education is not coming back 650 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 2: in any sense. Is it just read books like this 651 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 2: at scale? How do you recreate it? 652 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 5: Yeah? 653 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 8: Well, I think that quote on beauty is really important. 654 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 8: That's something that gets lost. I think a lot of 655 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 8: conservatives in particular, tend to over intellectualize politics. They think 656 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 8: if you get the ideas right, if you get the 657 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 8: policies right, then you'll be a great leader, right, And 658 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 8: that's not really how it works. Great leaders throughout history 659 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 8: have been builders of beautiful things. I go back to 660 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 8: Justinny and the Great. He built the hoggiest Sophia as 661 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 8: a structure that is around fifteen hundred years later, and 662 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 8: he coupled that beauty because he knew that most people, 663 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 8: they're not persuaded by logic. They want that big, compelling story. 664 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 8: That's why a Lincoln or an FDR were such successful presidents, 665 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 8: even O Reagan, and so I think it comes back 666 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 8: to that storytelling and to painting that beautiful vision that 667 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 8: can really capture the imagination of the next generation. 668 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 2: All right, Well, it's a treat to actually have something 669 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 2: like this on, so it's gateway to statesmanship selections from 670 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 2: Xenophonda Churchill. We'll have a link down on the description. 671 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 2: Everybody going by it. It's good to see my friend. 672 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 2: Thanks again, thanks for watching.