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Speaker 1: That's O T T E R dot ai. Hi everyone,
Speaker 1: I'm Katie Curic and I'm Bozma st John and this
Speaker 1: is back to biz with Katie and Bose Bose. I
Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I'm super psyched today because
Speaker 1: Stacy Abrams is such a rock star. And I'm sure
Speaker 1: you probably agree. Oh yes, I certainly agree. She has
Speaker 1: that black girl magic. It can't be bottled. Hers is
Speaker 1: coming out of her ears, out of her toes everywhere. Gosh,
Speaker 1: that magic. She's got it. Now, if you guys have
Speaker 1: heard of Stacy Abrams, who probably know about her historic
Speaker 1: run for governor of Georgia two years ago in two
Speaker 1: thousand eighteen, she narrowly lost to Brian Kemp, who was
Speaker 1: then the Secretary of State. And we'll be talking about
Speaker 1: that obviously, bows right, and Stacy was the first black
Speaker 1: woman in the US to win the nomination for governor period.
Speaker 1: I'm talking first black woman. Did you did you hear me?
Speaker 1: They did? Okay? Ever in the US like ever? Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying she's history making. She was born in Madison, Wisconsin,
Speaker 1: raised in Gulfport, Mississippi, and her family moved to Atlanta,
Speaker 1: where both her parents got graduate degrees and became Methodist ministers.
Speaker 1: So she's also a p K, otherwise known as as
Speaker 1: Preacher's kid. That's oh, that's a new one for me,
Speaker 1: Thank you. Bows. Yeah, and I know that her family
Speaker 1: really focused on education and it showed with Stacy. She
Speaker 1: graduated Magnicum Laudie from Spellman and then she got her
Speaker 1: law degree from Yale, so she's quite the smarty pants.
Speaker 1: She then served in the Georgia House of Representatives for
Speaker 1: ten years. She's been an activist her whole life, fighting
Speaker 1: particularly for voting rights. And she's got a new book
Speaker 1: out Bows called Our Time Is Now. It's perfect for
Speaker 1: this moment and this movement. It's a call to action,
Speaker 1: to protest, but also to participate and vote during this
Speaker 1: age of transformational change. That's right, this is perfect And
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have her on this show. You know,
Speaker 1: not only do we share being p k's, but she's
Speaker 1: also a fellow Trekky prosper baby, you know what. I'm
Speaker 1: more of a Picard person. So we'll see where she is. Um,
Speaker 1: we'll talk to her about her book, about November and
Speaker 1: about all that has been happening in her home state,
Speaker 1: from Georgia's primary debacle to the death of Ray Schard
Speaker 1: Brooks in Atlanta. But first we want to get to
Speaker 1: know her a little bit, so let's get to it. Okay,
Speaker 1: So now here's the big question. Of course, are you
Speaker 1: under the tutelage of Captain Kirk or Captain Picard? The card? See,
Speaker 1: I knew, I knew it. I knew it all along.
Speaker 1: I knew that we were sisters. I knew it. But
Speaker 1: before you fall too deeply in love, I think that
Speaker 1: Captain Picard is the archetype of a Star Trek captain.
Speaker 1: But I think Captain Janeway had the hardest mission and
Speaker 1: did the best work, you know what. Say, so let
Speaker 1: me tell you something. Okay, we we are. I think
Speaker 1: we're meant to be because the way I'm feeling about
Speaker 1: Jane Way, I just wish that she had more of
Speaker 1: an audience, you know, But that could also speak to
Speaker 1: our issues anyway, exactly right, which is why she she was.
Speaker 1: I love the card. He will always be the archetype.
Speaker 1: But look, it's it's it is much harder to be
Speaker 1: a captain when you are stranded and have to hold
Speaker 1: your values with no one else holding you accountable. You
Speaker 1: know what. This could just start off the entire conversation. Well,
Speaker 1: except I feel very left out, ladies, because I don't
Speaker 1: watch Star Trek I will say that. Just think about
Speaker 1: it this way. In a pantheon of men who get
Speaker 1: credit for everything, this was a woman who had the heart,
Speaker 1: was sent away from everything, no resources, and still managed
Speaker 1: to be just a badass. Yes, tell it. And I
Speaker 1: feel like everything we need to know about life in
Speaker 1: society we could learn on Star Trek. I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have to start watching it, ladies, so I can
Speaker 1: be part of this conversation. Welcome you into the cult,
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, Live long and prosper. Right there
Speaker 1: you go. Earlier I said, may the Force be with you,
Speaker 1: and Bo said no, no, no, that's Star Wars, completely
Speaker 1: different universe. Anyway, Well, we want to talk about your universe,
Speaker 1: Stacy Abrams, because it's so fascinating. We have so much
Speaker 1: to cover, and we wanted to start with learning a
Speaker 1: little more about you as a person. I know that
Speaker 1: you share a memory in your new book called Our
Speaker 1: Time Is Now that kind of tells us a lot
Speaker 1: about what you were like as a child that informed
Speaker 1: who you became as an adult. And that was when
Speaker 1: you were six years old and you got into your
Speaker 1: only schoolyard fight. Wait for it, everyone over the nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty election between Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. I love
Speaker 1: that you got into a fight at six about politics.
Speaker 1: Can you take us back to what you were fighting
Speaker 1: about and what it tells us about who you were
Speaker 1: as a kid. I grew up in Gulfport, Mississippi, which
Speaker 1: was one of the more liberal places in the state
Speaker 1: of Mississippi, but still fairly conservative. I went to elementary
Speaker 1: school that was integrated, but I tended to end up
Speaker 1: in classes. My classroom was predominantly white, and there was
Speaker 1: a young woman in the class who she and I
Speaker 1: actually became friends. But she we had this mock election,
Speaker 1: and she called Jimmy Carter a communist and said that
Speaker 1: he had destroyed America. And in our family, we grew
Speaker 1: up watching morning news, we watched evening news like we
Speaker 1: were steeped in politics. Not in a overwhelming way, but
Speaker 1: it was what was playing. And when she called him
Speaker 1: a communist, I told her to take it back. She wouldn't.
Speaker 1: I challenged her to defend her accusations. I told her
Speaker 1: that that Ronald Reagan was a fascist because I heard
Speaker 1: that terminology used as well, and she threw a book
Speaker 1: at me. I also, I'm the second of six kids.
Speaker 1: So I was raised to understand that if you were
Speaker 1: ever in an you know, in a confrontation, you should
Speaker 1: use overwhelming force to end it as quickly as possible.
Speaker 1: She threw a book, I shoved a desk atter. I
Speaker 1: won harder lost, but you know I stood in my
Speaker 1: I just threw in my ground. Wow, you really defended
Speaker 1: yourself and and were you that sort of committed and
Speaker 1: passionate throughout your childhood? I was? I mean, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I am not a high emotion person, but I am
Speaker 1: very goal oriented. I had four younger siblings and an
Speaker 1: older sister who was just incredibly kind to all of us.
Speaker 1: She was three years older than I am. But in
Speaker 1: our family, we were raised to believe that you're responsible
Speaker 1: for those who were weak, who are vulnerable, who are
Speaker 1: related to you. But we were also raised to have
Speaker 1: strong opinions, not necessarily to be confrontational, but to believe.
Speaker 1: And if you believed something, you should know why you
Speaker 1: believed it. Yeah. Well, you also credit your parents with
Speaker 1: getting you where you are. Did the lessons that you
Speaker 1: learned in your upbringing or the insight about your parents
Speaker 1: that they help you despite all the obstacles that they faced.
Speaker 1: So my parents when I was growing up, my mom
Speaker 1: and dad were both um. They work, They were working people.
Speaker 1: My mom was a college librarian. My dad was a
Speaker 1: shipyard worker. My father was dyslexic, and even though he
Speaker 1: had a college degree and is one of the smartest
Speaker 1: people I've ever met, because he couldn't read functionally until
Speaker 1: he was in his thirties, he couldn't get a job
Speaker 1: in an office. And so this bright man with this
Speaker 1: incredible mind, because he could not read and interact in
Speaker 1: the way they expected, he worked in a shipyard, not
Speaker 1: really using his mind, more using his strength. My dad
Speaker 1: really was the first person who taught us about feminism,
Speaker 1: because he believed that gender did not prescribe or circumscribe
Speaker 1: what we were capable of. My mom was a college
Speaker 1: librarian who sometimes made less money than the janitor who
Speaker 1: cleaned the college, and she was raising six children with
Speaker 1: my father. They were always struggling, but they always found
Speaker 1: time and the impetus to make certain that our world
Speaker 1: was broader than just the little house we lived in
Speaker 1: on South Street. And so as a child, what I
Speaker 1: internalized was this deep commitment to justice, a commitment to engagement.
Speaker 1: The fact that our circumstances were never going to constrain
Speaker 1: our capacity and our futures. And when they became ministers
Speaker 1: I was fifteen. I mean they preached us our whole lives,
Speaker 1: but they formalized that when they were forty. And when
Speaker 1: they became ministers. My parents, who had raised us to
Speaker 1: believe the education was so critical, instead of simply saying, well,
Speaker 1: we are we have this calling, they applied to graduate
Speaker 1: school and at the age of forty were both admitted
Speaker 1: to Emory University. Moved us to Georgia because they wanted
Speaker 1: us to watch them not only meet their calling, but
Speaker 1: practice what they preached, which is that if you're going
Speaker 1: to serve others, you've got to know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: And even though they had both grown up in the church,
Speaker 1: they knew they needed their edition of the Seminary to
Speaker 1: make it stronger and to help them guide their parishioners.
Speaker 1: And so what I learned from my family was just
Speaker 1: this constant live what you say from what my parents did.
Speaker 1: And I mean they had struggles and challenges, but they
Speaker 1: never allowed those things to overwhelm them, including poverty, including discrimination.
Speaker 1: You're listening to back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
Speaker 1: When we come back, Stacy Abram shares what we can
Speaker 1: do now to ensure a safe and fair election this November.
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Speaker 1: Let's return to our conversation with Stacy Abrams. It's interesting
Speaker 1: to me that in your book you said thinking back
Speaker 1: to your election back in that it still made you
Speaker 1: angry today, by the way, makes me angry to f y,
Speaker 1: I makes me angry to right. All of us are angry. Um.
Speaker 1: And even though you know you must have been livid,
Speaker 1: uh when and excuse my language because you know we
Speaker 1: both come from preacher parents, but I'm just gonna have
Speaker 1: to say it. The ship hit the fan. You know
Speaker 1: language is important, Okay, exactly? Um? But how how, how
Speaker 1: how can Georgia be back in this place? Again quite
Speaker 1: frankly the entire nation, but obviously Georgia where you are.
Speaker 1: How can it be back in this in this place again,
Speaker 1: what do you think happened and what is happening? What
Speaker 1: happened in was the culmination of almost a decade of
Speaker 1: voter suppression architecture, and the new Secretary State had no
Speaker 1: interest in dismantling it. We filed a lawsuit in two
Speaker 1: thousand and nineteen that articulated almost every one of the
Speaker 1: challenges that people saw in real time last Tuesday. But
Speaker 1: part of the issue was that when we told our story,
Speaker 1: a lot of folks didn't believe us. They thought that
Speaker 1: I was just, you know, espousing salary grapes, that I
Speaker 1: was trying to explain away the result. And as I've
Speaker 1: always said, I didn't contest the outcome of the election.
Speaker 1: I could have filed a contest, I could have tried
Speaker 1: to relitigate it, and I may or may not have
Speaker 1: been successful. But the point for me in what I
Speaker 1: didn't concede was to say that it's not about one
Speaker 1: politician or one race. This is about an infrastructure that's
Speaker 1: supposed to serve citizens, and it's not. It is stealing
Speaker 1: their voices and denying their choices, and that is wrong.
Speaker 1: But the problem we had was that there were tiny fixes.
Speaker 1: I think galvanized out of either embarrassment or the lawsuits
Speaker 1: we filed. But there was no structural determination that what
Speaker 1: was what was a rye needed to be fixed until
Speaker 1: it started hurting people other than the folks that wanted
Speaker 1: to vote for me. What was so devastating on Tuesday
Speaker 1: was that it showed the broken machinery of democracy can
Speaker 1: spread everywhere. It's not just those you target. When you
Speaker 1: break the machinery, you break it for everyone. And that's
Speaker 1: why Republicans were standing in long lines. The Speaker of
Speaker 1: the House, a conservative Republican, He had multiple counties in
Speaker 1: his district that had to get court orders to extend
Speaker 1: the lines because of the incompetence and the deliberate indifference
Speaker 1: of the Secretary of State. You can't fix a problem
Speaker 1: you don't acknowledge. We shake our heads at the terrible
Speaker 1: nous of our elections, We shake our heads at the
Speaker 1: stories of disentranchisement and voter suppression. But as politicians, we
Speaker 1: were taught you don't say anything about it, because if
Speaker 1: you do, you'll depress the turnout and people won't trust
Speaker 1: the system. My point is, how can you trust a
Speaker 1: system that doesn't trust you, that doesn't trust that your
Speaker 1: citizenship is a sufficient reason for you to be able
Speaker 1: to participate, which is why my response was not to concede.
Speaker 1: I conceded the I acknowledge the legal sufficiency, but I
Speaker 1: will not concede that the system is right. And what
Speaker 1: I'm proud of is the fact that in this election cycle,
Speaker 1: every single major candidate for the Democratic nomination talked about
Speaker 1: voter suppression, talked about the attacks on our democracy. We
Speaker 1: didn't simply whisper it in corners, but we called it aloud,
Speaker 1: and that's allowing people to finally see it's not their fault.
Speaker 1: Because the last piece I'll say is this voter suppression
Speaker 1: is the most insidious when it convinces you that you're
Speaker 1: the problem, that you should have known, you should have done.
Speaker 1: You were in a long line because you didn't think
Speaker 1: about it, or because people are so enthusiastic. No, you're
Speaker 1: in a long line because people under people in charge,
Speaker 1: under resourced your precinct and did not value your vote.
Speaker 1: And that is not right. I still can't get over
Speaker 1: the fact Brian Kent, your opponent, ultimately declared the winner,
Speaker 1: was the Secretary of State and in charge of the
Speaker 1: electoral process. How messed up? Is that I just don't
Speaker 1: get it. How can that be? I I gave a
Speaker 1: talk to a group of foreign ministers UM at an
Speaker 1: event last year, and when I described what happened, the
Speaker 1: just look of just people were aghast. They were absolutely stunned.
Speaker 1: Then the United States, the person who is in charge
Speaker 1: of the elections got to be the contestant, the referee,
Speaker 1: and the scorekeeper. It's like Tom Brady being allowed to
Speaker 1: be the rest at his own super Bowl. He gets
Speaker 1: to inflate the bole. I don't maybe don't want to
Speaker 1: go down that, Maybe don't go into that, but it
Speaker 1: is it is. It is that grotesque that we would
Speaker 1: have a system that permitted the person responsible for making
Speaker 1: sure people could vote, we allowed him to cherry pick
Speaker 1: who would get to vote. And the reality is even
Speaker 1: Chris Kobak, who has been cited by federal courts for
Speaker 1: his aggressive voter suppression, even he had the grace to
Speaker 1: step down and not oversee his own election, has that
Speaker 1: changed at all? I mean, is there any hope that
Speaker 1: there is going to be some forward movement? My belief
Speaker 1: is that we have to set a baseline that says,
Speaker 1: no matter where you live in America. This is the
Speaker 1: basic guarantee of democracy in our elections. Number one, that
Speaker 1: you can register and stay on the roles in America,
Speaker 1: so automatic registration and then same day registration. We are
Speaker 1: one of the few industrialized, democratized nations that puts the
Speaker 1: responsibility on every single person to learn the election laws
Speaker 1: of the state they move into. I'm a lawyer, I'm
Speaker 1: a well trained lawyer. You're a Yale lawyer. I have
Speaker 1: to spend a lot of time writing a book, and
Speaker 1: I still can't tell you all the rules. And so
Speaker 1: we need that baseline. The Heroes Act, which is currently
Speaker 1: pending before the Senate passed the House bipartisan It says
Speaker 1: we have to invest three point six billion dollars into
Speaker 1: making sure our elections happen in November, because states are
Speaker 1: going to see as we saw in Georgia, as we
Speaker 1: saw in Pennsylvania, in Maryland, in South Carolina and North
Speaker 1: and Nevada, we are seeing a massive increase in the
Speaker 1: use of absentee ballots because people don't want to die. Uh.
Speaker 1: The states are hemorrhaging money because of quarantine, because of
Speaker 1: shelter in place. The federal government's purpose is that it's
Speaker 1: supposed to be the backstop in the moment of crisis
Speaker 1: to assist our states and counties and our local elections officials.
Speaker 1: So give them the money so they can scale the elections.
Speaker 1: But the reason this matters is that it also puts
Speaker 1: in place guardrails that says, at least for the pandemic,
Speaker 1: everyone who wants to vote by mail can do so
Speaker 1: you don't have to have an excuse. Alabama, for example,
Speaker 1: says that you you must either be disabled over sixty five,
Speaker 1: but having covid being exposed to covid ien is not
Speaker 1: a valid excuse. The Attorney General and the governor of
Speaker 1: Texas are fighting tooth and nail to make sure everyone
Speaker 1: has to vote in person. And let's not forget that
Speaker 1: in their February primary they'd shut down more than four
Speaker 1: hundred precincts, which led to eight our lines in the
Speaker 1: Democratic presidential primary. The reason they don't want absentee ballots
Speaker 1: is that they don't want people to vote. And people
Speaker 1: remember those lines from February, and if they get away
Speaker 1: with it, you will see the competitive races and Texas
Speaker 1: suddenly fall into the hands of Republicans because voters are
Speaker 1: scared out of voting. M hm, well, speaking of fear,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm very nervous about November, and maybe very
Speaker 1: nervous is putting it lightly. I'm sure given all you said,
Speaker 1: you might have some fears as well. Um, what are
Speaker 1: your your concerns about November? So the reason I wrote
Speaker 1: Our Time Is Now is to articulate the fears, which
Speaker 1: is that voter suppression is real, it's operational, and its
Speaker 1: strongest protection is the ignorance of the voter. If you
Speaker 1: don't know what you're facing, you can't beat it. And
Speaker 1: so I wanted to write it down and really explain
Speaker 1: so that people could understand that it's not you. Voter
Speaker 1: suppression is the most effective when it convinces us it's
Speaker 1: not worth five eating, because it's so inevitable that the
Speaker 1: harm is done. I don't want people to be defeated.
Speaker 1: I want them to be angry. I want them to
Speaker 1: be energized. I want them to say, you're not gonna
Speaker 1: take my vote for me. I may not want to
Speaker 1: use it, but it's gonna be my choice, not yours.
Speaker 1: But my hope is born of the fact that not
Speaker 1: not only did I write this book, but I launched
Speaker 1: an organization called Fair Fight that's working in eighteen states,
Speaker 1: working to make certain that we can guarantee access to
Speaker 1: the ballot and we can't guarantee it, but we can
Speaker 1: mitigate the harm of voter suppression. We can increase the
Speaker 1: number of volunteers willing to help, we can provide hotlines,
Speaker 1: we can work in concert with those who are filing
Speaker 1: lawsuits to knock down some of these barriers. And so
Speaker 1: my hopefulness comes from the fact that we now that
Speaker 1: we know what's happening, Now that we know what the
Speaker 1: Republicans intend to do with their voter intimidation tactics, Now
Speaker 1: that we understand that they're going to spend sixty million
Speaker 1: dollars and raise an army of fifty thousand whole observers
Speaker 1: to intimidate voters of color. Now that we know that
Speaker 1: we can fight back. Because in every other election, we
Speaker 1: just hope that people would follow the Marquis of Queensbury rules,
Speaker 1: and if they didn't then we'd sue. We can't wait
Speaker 1: for the harm to happen. We've got to interfere and
Speaker 1: interceed now. And I'm proud of the fact that we're
Speaker 1: part of a national coalition of organizations dedicated to expanding
Speaker 1: access to the right to vote and protecting it from mayor.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
Speaker 1: When we come back, Stacy Abrams on how we can
Speaker 1: fix our policing problem. Here's another podcast you should add
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Speaker 1: with Katie and Bows. We're talking with Stacey Abram's inspiring activists,
Speaker 1: politician and author. Let's get back to our conversation. We're
Speaker 1: talking about voter suppression and the elections and all of this,
Speaker 1: but and COVID and all kinds of things. But it's
Speaker 1: also with the additional stories, uh that continue, I mean,
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, the Rodney King verdict unleashed you know
Speaker 1: more unrest, right, I mean you're you're an activist of course,
Speaker 1: and you protested. Then how are you viewing this moment
Speaker 1: of our unrest? I I don't call it deja vous,
Speaker 1: but it is the repeat of history that we've always
Speaker 1: been warned about. You know, we know the history will
Speaker 1: repeat itself. The question is what do we do when
Speaker 1: it comes again? And what happened in nine two is
Speaker 1: eerily similar to what's happening today. You had a man
Speaker 1: who faced recorded and recorded episode of police brutality, and
Speaker 1: what set off the demonstrations was the exoneration of that officer,
Speaker 1: the refusal to take action in a way that was meaningful.
Speaker 1: In fact, it was the tacit acceptance that this black
Speaker 1: man deserves to be beaten because of something they couldn't
Speaker 1: have possibly known at that moment when they used their
Speaker 1: force to harm him. It was the dehumanization of blackness
Speaker 1: that we saw play out there, and it's what we
Speaker 1: see today. But here's the difference in when it happened,
Speaker 1: we heard lots of chiding, lots of dismissal of the concerns.
Speaker 1: You had a few promises, but in an election year
Speaker 1: for president, you did not hear the president the nomin
Speaker 1: prepare himself and declare that he was going to do
Speaker 1: something about it. That didn't happen. And I have a
Speaker 1: great deal of respect for um President Clinton and what
Speaker 1: he was able to do. But that was a failure,
Speaker 1: and that was a missed opportunity that cemented for another
Speaker 1: generation the legitimacy of that behavior. What we see in
Speaker 1: this moment is a more instant response, of actual solution building,
Speaker 1: of actual attempts to address the challenge. And what is
Speaker 1: even more important is the persistence of those protesters. We
Speaker 1: protested for a few days, and I was proud of
Speaker 1: those protests. I was proud of the work I did
Speaker 1: through the student organizations I was a part of. I
Speaker 1: tried to tackle the issue of gang violence, of youth poverty.
Speaker 1: I did a lot of my work, but I was
Speaker 1: one person who was at the very bottom of any
Speaker 1: totem polar power. In fact, I was like the sand
Speaker 1: underneath it. We got kicked around. But what we see
Speaker 1: today is that the protesters are actually driving change. When
Speaker 1: Donald Trump came out yesterday with his you know, very
Speaker 1: merely police reform, which basically was He's going to create
Speaker 1: an Excel spreadsheet to try to solve the problem, even
Speaker 1: that is a it's an analysis that says I recognize
Speaker 1: that this is an issue and that I'm going to
Speaker 1: be held accountable. But what's even more important to me
Speaker 1: is that Joe Biden has met this moment almost every
Speaker 1: single day by trying to offer both listening and solutions.
Speaker 1: That we have people at every level of government who
Speaker 1: are engaged and reacting, And that's what's so important, because
Speaker 1: we can't disconnect this moment from voting. Voting is the
Speaker 1: medicine we take to cure the disease of systemic racism,
Speaker 1: of systemic injustice, the police brutality, because we're gonna be
Speaker 1: electing local officials, mayors who are gonna be hiring these
Speaker 1: police chiefs. We're gonna be electing the state legislators who
Speaker 1: can finally start to mitigate some of these things like
Speaker 1: the citizen arrest laws that allowed a mod Arebrey to
Speaker 1: be murdered. And we're gonna be electing senators and congressmen
Speaker 1: and women who can make the decision that qualified immunity
Speaker 1: is wrong and for the first time take it back
Speaker 1: and say that you have to be held accountable, that
Speaker 1: you cannot murder citizens under the color of saying that
Speaker 1: you were just doing your job. Those are things that
Speaker 1: can happen in this moment that we never had a
Speaker 1: conversation about before and it all has to do with voting.
Speaker 1: And you know the sustained crescendo of these protests Stacy had,
Speaker 1: it's been so powerful, and you're right, people are trying
Speaker 1: to figure out real solutions. But Joe Biden himself, for example,
Speaker 1: said he was against defunding police, which I think needs
Speaker 1: a rebranding. To be honest with you, because defunding, I
Speaker 1: think is quite misleading. I think it really means to
Speaker 1: my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong, Please, is
Speaker 1: reallocating resources and re examining these huge budgets that go
Speaker 1: into police departments all over the country. Um, where do
Speaker 1: you stand on defunding police, abolishing police, reforming police? So,
Speaker 1: defund the police is a phrase that is being used
Speaker 1: by activists as their rally and cry, and as someone
Speaker 1: who was an activist, I do not feel it is
Speaker 1: my place to critique the language that they used to
Speaker 1: describe the urgency, the exigency, and the anguish that they feel.
Speaker 1: As someone who is in policy making, it's my responsibility
Speaker 1: to understand the substance of that vision, and I describe
Speaker 1: it for myself as reformation and transformation. We have to
Speaker 1: reform the behaviors and practices that oversee the the distribution
Speaker 1: of public safety in our society. That doesn't permit Ray
Speaker 1: Shard Brooks to be murdered because he stole a taser.
Speaker 1: That is what we need to see. We need no
Speaker 1: knock warrants to be outlawed so that Brianna Taylor does
Speaker 1: not that she becomes the last black woman to die
Speaker 1: in her bed because they didn't have to announce that
Speaker 1: they had made a mistake. So there's that first piece.
Speaker 1: There's the reformation of practices and policies, and then to
Speaker 1: your point, it is the trans formation of how we
Speaker 1: fund society, how much money we put into what we
Speaker 1: call policing versus what we should call public safety, because
Speaker 1: part of public safety is making the safe, making the
Speaker 1: public safe to be who they are and to give
Speaker 1: them opportunity to thrive, and that means investing in education
Speaker 1: and health care and community diversion programs and community building programs.
Speaker 1: It's also about making sure people can bank, because if
Speaker 1: you're in a black community, you're the least likely to
Speaker 1: have access to banking. It's making certain that the reallocation
Speaker 1: of resources speak to our values and that the budget
Speaker 1: decisions that we make are actually the right ones. And
Speaker 1: if that means taking some money away from programs that
Speaker 1: militarize the police and putting those dollars instead and making
Speaker 1: sure that kids have full and whole education, then I'm
Speaker 1: absolutely a fan of that transformation. But what I don't
Speaker 1: want to see get caught up in is this false
Speaker 1: dynamic that says that it's one or the other, that
Speaker 1: you can either reform or you can transform. It is
Speaker 1: a both and conversation, and it's a both and imperative.
Speaker 1: Do you think that it might hurt the Democrats at
Speaker 1: all in the fall if some of these things aren't
Speaker 1: clearly enumerated and kind of explain. Because I hear you
Speaker 1: about not questioning language, but let's face it. You know
Speaker 1: language can be misleading and people can become misguided, and
Speaker 1: that's one thing I wonder about. I'm not saying you
Speaker 1: don't question language. I'm saying I'm not going to question
Speaker 1: the rallying prize used by the activist because I remind
Speaker 1: folks that the Tea Party had some fairly strong invective
Speaker 1: and some fairly outlandish ideas in two thousand ten, and
Speaker 1: it worked. They were able to take over Congress. And
Speaker 1: so this notion, if what galvanizes people to action, what
Speaker 1: drives them to the polls is the fact that they
Speaker 1: believe that they could hire people to accomplish their vision.
Speaker 1: I don't think people care what you call it. They
Speaker 1: care what you do. And what Democrats have to be
Speaker 1: willing to do is speak to the policies they are
Speaker 1: willing to fight for. If they don't like the language
Speaker 1: that's used to describe but within the activist community, I
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't hold them accountable for that. But
Speaker 1: I do think we have to hold them accountable for
Speaker 1: the policies they propose and for how they intend to
Speaker 1: meet this moment. You know what say, See, let me
Speaker 1: tell you something. Should you be the vice president candidate,
Speaker 1: I would vote for you. So can we can we
Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit, because obviously it's it's
Speaker 1: refreshing to think of you in that role. Can you
Speaker 1: give us your pitch for for the job? Well, I
Speaker 1: want to be clear, you can't pitch for the job
Speaker 1: of VP. That is Joe Biden's decision. What I've said
Speaker 1: consistently since March of is that if called, I will answer,
Speaker 1: and when asked if I'm qualified, I say, absolutely I am,
Speaker 1: and that's my responsibility. But it's our responsibility to ensure
Speaker 1: that no matter who he picks, that that person, that
Speaker 1: woman is going to be supported in her work. Because
Speaker 1: the job of the vice president is to be the
Speaker 1: chief lieutenant to the President of the United States to
Speaker 1: living out that vision, I believe that we can tackle
Speaker 1: these challenges. I have a whole section dedicate chapter dedicated
Speaker 1: to the census, because that's how we get the economic
Speaker 1: and political power we need and we so often ignore.
Speaker 1: I have a whole section dedicated to identity politics because
Speaker 1: I Am not going to let anyone tell me that
Speaker 1: my experiences as a black woman do not have relevance
Speaker 1: and how I make selections about for whom I'm going
Speaker 1: to vote. And just as we saw yesterday or I
Speaker 1: think it was two days ago with the Supreme Court decision,
Speaker 1: identity matters. It tells us who we are and who
Speaker 1: we can become, and it tells us about the barriers
Speaker 1: to success. And the fact that it took till two
Speaker 1: thousand and twenty for the voting for the Civil Rights
Speaker 1: Act of nineteen sixty four to acknowledge the sexual orientation
Speaker 1: and gender identity deserve protection is a perfect example of
Speaker 1: why identity politics matter. So my belief is that we
Speaker 1: can win if we fall all of the playbook that
Speaker 1: says we treat every voter, every American, every person in
Speaker 1: our country as human having value and worth, and if
Speaker 1: we're willing to invest in their success. And that's what
Speaker 1: I hope the next Vice president will bring to the ticket,
Speaker 1: and it's why I'm so excited to be a part
Speaker 1: of the conversation. But I know it's Joe Biden's decision.
Speaker 1: How important is it to you symbolically, policy wise, taking
Speaker 1: into account everything that it is a person of color
Speaker 1: in that role. I've said this before. I think we
Speaker 1: cannot presume to know what Joe Biden needs as a
Speaker 1: partner in this campaign or in his administration, because about
Speaker 1: the country needs no. No, I'm getting it. He's he's
Speaker 1: the only person who has held this job, and I
Speaker 1: trust him to make the decision that's right. I think
Speaker 1: that having a woman of color as his running mate
Speaker 1: is an incredibly powerful signal that shows that the face
Speaker 1: of leadership can can continue to evolve and transform and
Speaker 1: include more people. But I do not believe that Joe
Speaker 1: Biden will take any community for granted, and if his
Speaker 1: choice is not the choice I would have made, I
Speaker 1: am not going to disparage that choice because we are
Speaker 1: making advances in every single moment, including the fact that
Speaker 1: he is willing to make a woman his vice presidential nominee.
Speaker 1: But more than that, I want to know what the
Speaker 1: president of the United States intends to do about my
Speaker 1: community and about the issues that matter to me. And
Speaker 1: that's got to be the fundamental point that I look at.
Speaker 1: That said, as I said before, I think it's an
Speaker 1: important signal, and I think it could be a very
Speaker 1: critical and credible way to talk about the future of
Speaker 1: our nation. Stacy Abrahams, it's such a pleasure to just
Speaker 1: have this conversation with you and to hear your point
Speaker 1: of view so brilliantly stated in every way. Uh, both
Speaker 1: Bose and I admire you deeply and I can't thank
Speaker 1: you enough for for being on our podcast. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Thank you, And as we began, Live Long
Speaker 1: and prosper thank you, thank you. Yes we will. I'm
Speaker 1: really glad we had that conversation, and I feel very
Speaker 1: energized and motivated to do what I can to help
Speaker 1: get out the vote and make sure that everybody has
Speaker 1: an opportunity to have their voices heard. Agreed. Agreed couldn't
Speaker 1: be more of a perfect title. Right, Our time is now.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's the title of Stacy Abram's new book.
Speaker 1: That does it. For this episode of Back to Biz
Speaker 1: with Kadie and Bows Now, if you're not already, you
Speaker 1: can subscribe to the podcast on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows
Speaker 1: and a personal plea for me and Bows, please subscribe
Speaker 1: to our podcast and you can find more about all
Speaker 1: the cool people were talking to, as well as our
Speaker 1: favorite moments from these episodes on our Instagram feeds and stories.
Speaker 1: Until next time, I'm Katie Couric and I'm Bozma St.
Speaker 1: John and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for listening. Back to Biz
Speaker 1: with Katie and Bows is a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive producers are Katie Currik,
Speaker 1: Bozma St John, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is
Speaker 1: Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are Derek Clements, Eliza Costas,
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