WEBVTT - Whine About It: The Perfectionist Mindset

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<v Speaker 1>Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>On today's wind About It Thursday Therapy, We've got Thomas

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<v Speaker 1>kran So. He is a professor of psychology at the

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<v Speaker 1>London School of Economics and an author of a landmark

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<v Speaker 1>study that the BBC hailed as the first to compare

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<v Speaker 1>perfectionism across generations. He's had his ted talks, he's been

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<v Speaker 1>talking all about it. His new book is out, The

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<v Speaker 1>Perfection Trap, Embracing the power of good enough. So let's

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<v Speaker 1>get him on and talk all about it Hill. Like you, hi, Thomas, how.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you good? Very well? Thank you? How are ye?

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<v Speaker 1>I am really good? Your book, The Perfection Trap, it's

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<v Speaker 1>embracing the power of good enough and it's it's interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>When I was reading your rundown, I was like, oh, ironic,

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<v Speaker 1>I have a tattoo enough like on my arm because

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like it's it's always been my biggest thing

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<v Speaker 1>that has rotated in my brain, like I'm not good enough,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough. And when

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<v Speaker 1>I got divorced a couple of years ago, I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to tattoo enough on my arm and I

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<v Speaker 1>need to look at it every single day because it's

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<v Speaker 1>one of the hardest things to sing in.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh definitely. And this particularly in this culture as well,

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<v Speaker 2>where there's always something more to do right there, it's

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<v Speaker 2>really difficult to feel like you're ever enough because everything else,

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<v Speaker 2>everybody else, and all around this needs to be racing away.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's so important to remind us of that all

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<v Speaker 2>the time.

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<v Speaker 1>So why perfectionalism, Like when you wrote this book, is

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<v Speaker 1>it something that you personally struggled with or is it

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<v Speaker 1>something where like this is just something that I'm seeing

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<v Speaker 1>that needs to be readdressed.

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<v Speaker 2>Both actually, certainly something I struggle with in my own

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<v Speaker 2>life and has can contribute to quite significant mental health problems.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm actually divorced too, and I wonder whether it's

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit to do with that as well. And

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<v Speaker 2>also just everywhere, like you know, I mean, I'm teaching people,

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<v Speaker 2>so I see I interact with young people a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>You see it everywhere, so much perfections right now, fear

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<v Speaker 2>of failure, fear of doing things wrong, fear of doing

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<v Speaker 2>things imperfectly. So that was kind of where it came from.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I was feeling these things, I was seeing

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<v Speaker 2>these things, and I just I was an academic, so

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just genuinely curious as to, oh, what's going on here?

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<v Speaker 2>Is this? Like, is this the new zeitgeist? Is this?

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<v Speaker 2>Is this something that we need to be paying attention to?

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<v Speaker 2>So that's kind of where it started.

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<v Speaker 1>And then is it something where I mean, obviously I

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<v Speaker 1>feel like it's a repeat sentence all the time. But

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<v Speaker 1>social media, social media, like you need having to compare

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<v Speaker 1>and be perfect, and especially with children too. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>That's why I'm like, I don't even want my daughter

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<v Speaker 1>to have social media because I don't want her to

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<v Speaker 1>have to have that like comparison, you know, to filter

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<v Speaker 1>things or to make herself look different on something. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I even, like personally had to stop using

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<v Speaker 1>filters because I'm like, well, that's not what I look like,

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<v Speaker 1>even though I like it better, but I don't. That's

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<v Speaker 1>that's not me. So do you Is that something else

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<v Speaker 1>too that you've seen be a negative trend in the

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<v Speaker 1>reach to being good enough?

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<v Speaker 2>I think so. So social media is interesting because it's

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<v Speaker 2>not all bad. There's some really positive elements to social

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<v Speaker 2>media bringing you know, particularly the communal elements and bringing

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<v Speaker 2>people together around shared interest and all the rest of it.

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<v Speaker 2>But obviously there is also a darker side, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>exactly what you're alluding to there, the social comparison kind

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<v Speaker 2>of limitless images of everyone else's perfect lives and lifestyle

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<v Speaker 2>as they invariably going to have an impact on the

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<v Speaker 2>way that we feel about ourselves. And I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>if there's any doubt the data is clear on this,

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<v Speaker 2>But also you know, you don't really need the data.

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<v Speaker 2>You just have to go onto these platforms to see

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<v Speaker 2>how they work and to know that that's going to

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<v Speaker 2>have an impact on our perceptions about what's realistic or

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<v Speaker 2>what we should be aspiring to and the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>desirability and the obtainability of those ideals. They clearly they're

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<v Speaker 2>pretty rejected at US twenty four seven on those platforms,

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<v Speaker 2>and naturally, I think we're going to interpret them as

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<v Speaker 2>needs to be perfect.

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<v Speaker 1>What have you seen in the mental health area around

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<v Speaker 1>this perfection trap?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, perfectionism is really curious because right now you see

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of it, and I think there's a begrudging

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<v Speaker 2>acceptance of perfectionism being a necessary evil. I suppose you

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<v Speaker 2>could call it a favorite flow. So on the one hand,

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<v Speaker 2>we have this idea that we kind of know it

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<v Speaker 2>has some baggage, but at the same time we think

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<v Speaker 2>it's something that helps us succeed or moves us forward.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you talk to perfectionistic people and are certainly

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<v Speaker 2>one of these people, they will say say to you

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<v Speaker 2>that you know everything and all around me could be

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<v Speaker 2>collapsing right, things could be going wrong. I could be

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<v Speaker 2>really in a hole in my personal life, work life,

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<v Speaker 2>whatever it might be. But perfectionism is the one thing

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<v Speaker 2>keeping me going. It's the one thing holding me up

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<v Speaker 2>in the world. When all of this other stuff is coming,

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<v Speaker 2>it feels like it's crashing down. And really the point

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<v Speaker 2>that book, the biggest reason why I wrote the book

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<v Speaker 2>was to what it was to really push through that myth,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of almost smash through it, because it's actually the

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<v Speaker 2>perfectionism that's going to be at the root of those issues.

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<v Speaker 2>It's perfectionism is going to be creating those problems and

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<v Speaker 2>exacerbating and amplifying those problems.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>And until we recognize that, it's really difficult for us

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<v Speaker 2>to turn turn the corner on this kind of lionization

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<v Speaker 2>of perfectionism wider society. And there are many reasons why

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<v Speaker 2>perfections and contributes to mental health, but the correlations are

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<v Speaker 2>really strong, and and and it's rising among young people.

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<v Speaker 2>So those two, those two things really really mean that

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<v Speaker 2>we should be paying attention to perfectionism when it has

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<v Speaker 2>it's rising.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you see it more in men or women?

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<v Speaker 2>So this is a question I get asked a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>and the data is inconclusive. So when you look across

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<v Speaker 2>the piece that you tend to find there's not much

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<v Speaker 2>of a relationship between gender and levels of perfectionism, which

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<v Speaker 2>is really interesting and we didn't expect to see that.

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<v Speaker 2>But that doesn't mean to say that there won't be

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<v Speaker 2>context and situations and environmental factors that mean perfectionistic expectations

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<v Speaker 2>way heavily on one gender right over another. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think there's plenty of anecdotal sociological evidence to suggest that

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<v Speaker 2>females in particular are under the microscope, particularly when it

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<v Speaker 2>comes to image ideals, ways in which they are told

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<v Speaker 2>they should behave, they should look and appear, and all

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<v Speaker 2>the rest of it that men don't necessarily have to

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<v Speaker 2>contend with. So there's an argument that although mean levels

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<v Speaker 2>in the aggregate are fairly similar, that doesn't mean that

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<v Speaker 2>we don't have to deal with context where perfectionism is

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<v Speaker 2>demanded us as some in different measure, And I think

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<v Speaker 2>there's an eye to suggest, as I say, females will

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<v Speaker 2>probably have a lot more to condemn with the moles.

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<v Speaker 1>What is there any studies about ages of kids, like

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<v Speaker 1>when that starts to become a problem.

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<v Speaker 2>So, like all personality characteristics, they start to crystallize in

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<v Speaker 2>that early adolescent phase, so around twelve thirteen fourteen, where

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<v Speaker 2>young people really begin to pick up character characteristics and

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<v Speaker 2>take on a personality. But that doesn't necessarily mean to

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<v Speaker 2>say that these perfectionism is genetically inherited to a great extent.

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<v Speaker 2>So about thirty to forty percent of perfectionism comes from

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<v Speaker 2>parents and comes from genes. There's nothing we can do

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<v Speaker 2>about that, right, they're just kind of born with dut predisposition.

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<v Speaker 2>But then the environment and all around us explains the rest.

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<v Speaker 2>So what's left over is explained in the environment that

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<v Speaker 2>we grow up into. And there are many different social

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<v Speaker 2>forces that can amplify perfecttionistic tendencies, and I talk about

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<v Speaker 2>them in the book, things like we just discussed social media,

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<v Speaker 2>but schooling, parenting, the workplace, social media, advertising and all

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<v Speaker 2>these kind of more broader cultural forces, and they tend

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<v Speaker 2>to sort of crystallize around that young, young, early adolescent stage,

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<v Speaker 2>but they can also be triggered later later in life too,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was certainly a case for me. I grew

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<v Speaker 2>up in a working class family. The need to excel

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't necessarily too strong. They need to get bios a

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<v Speaker 2>lot stronger. However, as I elevated and moved myself into

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<v Speaker 2>a different world where the expectations were really really high

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<v Speaker 2>to perform to an exceptional level, to kind of lift

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<v Speaker 2>myself above other people in the professional world, that's when

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<v Speaker 2>my perfectionism started to be triggered. So I had this predisposition,

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<v Speaker 2>and then once I was in a really pressurized competitive environment,

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<v Speaker 2>that's when the problem started to creep in. That's perfection

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<v Speaker 2>has and really started to rear its head. So you

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<v Speaker 2>tend to see it in earlier adolescens start to creep in,

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<v Speaker 2>and there are many many signs you can look for,

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<v Speaker 2>but that doesn't mean to say that it can't come

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<v Speaker 2>on at a later life stage either.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, what do you think is the biggest damage that

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<v Speaker 1>perfectionalism does to somebody?

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<v Speaker 2>It's really tough. So in the scientific ligity corporfectionism a

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<v Speaker 2>transdiagnostic risk factor, and what that means is that perfectionism

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<v Speaker 2>can contribute to all manner of psychological difficulties and not

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<v Speaker 2>just those perhaps we often associated with so obsessive tendencies

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<v Speaker 2>for instance. And the reason why it contributes all sorts

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<v Speaker 2>of psychological difficulties like depression, anxiety, a sense of ruminative guilt, shame.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of shame among perfectionistic people. Self conscious emotions,

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<v Speaker 2>self presentation, concerns, worries about how we look up here

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<v Speaker 2>and perform relatives to other people. All manner of different

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<v Speaker 2>psychological difficulties is wrapped up in perfection and it's because

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<v Speaker 2>perfectionists find it really difficult to manage and deal with

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<v Speaker 2>challenge and setbacks. So what tends to happen with perfectionism

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<v Speaker 2>is when things are going okay, there's a sense of

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<v Speaker 2>affections that we're kind of okay, we're not too bad,

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<v Speaker 2>we're doing all right, things are going reasonably well. We're

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<v Speaker 2>not failing. That's the important thing. But as soon as

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<v Speaker 2>we encounter some setback, challenge or failure, that's when the

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<v Speaker 2>self conscious emotions at shane. That deal is triggered and

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<v Speaker 2>that sets in motion and overcompensatory cycle, whereby we feel

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<v Speaker 2>like we're not good enough, We feel like we've let

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<v Speaker 2>ourselves down, we feel like we've let other people down.

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<v Speaker 2>The validation and approval that we so need to feel

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<v Speaker 2>good about ourselves is not present, and in some cases

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<v Speaker 2>we feel rejected or criticized, and so in order to

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<v Speaker 2>almost remedy those self conscious emotions, remedy that shame, we overcompensate.

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<v Speaker 2>We set ourselves even higher goals next time, because in

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<v Speaker 2>order to gain the validation of approve, approval of other

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<v Speaker 2>people back, we need to be perfect, so we set

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<v Speaker 2>higher goals. We find ourselves in situations of failure because

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<v Speaker 2>the goals are too high in the first place, we

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<v Speaker 2>feel even more anxious, even more depressed. That self esteem plummets,

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<v Speaker 2>and then we overcompensate again, so we say even higher

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<v Speaker 2>goals and so sets in sight and train this cycle

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<v Speaker 2>of self defeat, whereby you can see lots of different

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<v Speaker 2>cyclogs grow under starting to creep in low mood, anxiety, depression,

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<v Speaker 2>and left untreated, left unchecked, that can that can lead

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<v Speaker 2>to some quite significant mentalblems, hopelessness, helplessness, and in some

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<v Speaker 2>cases well so this is why perfectionism is so incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>damaging because as soon as we hit setbacks, challenge failures,

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<v Speaker 2>we can we can quickly descend and so and perfectionism

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<v Speaker 2>really creates a very negative feedback leap in that respect.

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<v Speaker 1>So in your book, the perfection trap is there. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>obviously you give tools and stuff like what are some

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<v Speaker 1>of the tools that people will be able to get

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<v Speaker 1>from from your book to like help with you know,

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<v Speaker 1>manage it, and then yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well there's all sorts of different things we can do.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the first thing is to recognize that perfectionism

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<v Speaker 2>is a problem. So, as I mentioned, a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people will associate perfection and something that's very positive or

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<v Speaker 2>something it's carrying them forward, something that's helping them through

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<v Speaker 2>these difficult periods. But that's simply not the case, and

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<v Speaker 2>the data suggests it can create a lot of psychological

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<v Speaker 2>problems with very little performance actually interestingly, so I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's the first thing. The first thing to recognize is

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<v Speaker 2>that we need to understand it's a problem and then

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<v Speaker 2>begin to let go. And we can do that in

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<v Speaker 2>a number of different ways. That the first and the

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<v Speaker 2>thing I've really focused on in the book is self

0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:16.079
<v Speaker 2>acceptance I think are so important being comfortable in our

0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.360
<v Speaker 2>own skin. And that's easy to than done, of course,

0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.880
<v Speaker 2>especially in this culture where we're constantly poured in different

0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.160
<v Speaker 2>directions and tod we should be more, have more, do more.

0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.720
<v Speaker 2>But nevertheless, it's so important to try to reconnect with ourselves,

0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:33.800
<v Speaker 2>to show ourselves to be vulnerable, to be courageous, to

0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.200
<v Speaker 2>do things that we find that give us purpose and joy,

0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:38.560
<v Speaker 2>even if we're not world champion at them, even if

0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.160
<v Speaker 2>we're not exceptional. It's really important we push ourselves out there.

0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.959
<v Speaker 2>So give you a couple of examples. In the workplace,

0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.520
<v Speaker 2>for instance, if you find public speaking. A lot of

0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.199
<v Speaker 2>people find public speaking very difficult. If you think that

0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:52.360
<v Speaker 2>public speaking is going to challenge that perfect persona that

0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:54.640
<v Speaker 2>you're looking to put out into the world because you

0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.560
<v Speaker 2>feel like you're not a very good public speaking you're

0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.319
<v Speaker 2>not very confident, or you're not verarticular, or whatever it

0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.360
<v Speaker 2>might be, then you will tend withhold yourself from putting

0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.640
<v Speaker 2>yourself forward for those situations because you don't want to

0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:08.360
<v Speaker 2>show any deficiency, your limitation if you're a perfectionist. So

0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 2>I would encourage you tomorrow to go out and put

0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.199
<v Speaker 2>your hand up to do that thing that challenges that

0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:17.120
<v Speaker 2>that perfect person in your mind's eye, and public begins

0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:18.800
<v Speaker 2>really good one. But it could be writing a project,

0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:21.440
<v Speaker 2>It could be putting your hand up to shairing or

0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.600
<v Speaker 2>hands meeting. It could be something in your personal life,

0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, playing music, singing, dancing, stuff that you feel

0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 2>like you might be rubbish up. But never let's give

0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:31.400
<v Speaker 2>you some sense enjoy it. I think this is so

0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 2>important because what those moments of discomfort, and they will

0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.120
<v Speaker 2>be uncomfortable because this is an uncomfortable process. But what

0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.200
<v Speaker 2>they teach you is something really important about the perfect

0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:46.640
<v Speaker 2>person that you're trying to emulate, and they teach you that, really,

0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.280
<v Speaker 2>is it worth living in fear trying to be this

0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.440
<v Speaker 2>perfect person or actually showing ourselves being vulnerable. Is that

0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.120
<v Speaker 2>as catastrophic as we've had it in our mind's eye

0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:58.600
<v Speaker 2>that it might be? And often it's the case that

0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.200
<v Speaker 2>we put ourselves form we do a great job, But

0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.479
<v Speaker 2>even if we don't do a great job, the consequences

0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.360
<v Speaker 2>of that set back, difficulty, challenge are often not catastrophic

0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.560
<v Speaker 2>as we often think they might be. So this is

0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.160
<v Speaker 2>all about reframing, This is all about pushing ourselves out

0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:15.320
<v Speaker 2>there importantly too about being compassionate to ourselves. And things

0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.120
<v Speaker 2>don't go well, so you're going to encounter set back, challenge.

0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.240
<v Speaker 2>Make sure you're kind to yourself in those moments. Don't

0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.680
<v Speaker 2>fall into a bit of self loathing like you're like

0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:30.440
<v Speaker 2>you'll want to in the moment. That's also really really important.

0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:35.040
<v Speaker 2>And secondly, reframe, reframe, reframe, reframe, think about what it

0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:39.080
<v Speaker 2>is that you're doing. Ask yourself. Are those kind of

0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:42.400
<v Speaker 2>very rigid and narrow thought process black and white thinking?

0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:44.440
<v Speaker 2>It's associate perfections and mustard. Is I have to do that?

0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:46.520
<v Speaker 2>If I don't do this, and the catastrophs can happen?

0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.600
<v Speaker 2>Like how much we actually believe those things? Write them down,

0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.800
<v Speaker 2>rate them, reflect on them, and try to reframe them

0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.200
<v Speaker 2>to find more compassionate ways forward. So does it have

0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:58.760
<v Speaker 2>to or is it would have a like to or

0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:00.880
<v Speaker 2>this would be good to have done? Or if I

0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.080
<v Speaker 2>don't quite make this target, then this target, which is

0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:08.840
<v Speaker 2>slightly lower perhaps is okay. It's good enough. So progress

0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:13.360
<v Speaker 2>is better than perfection. Good enough really is good enough?

0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:15.760
<v Speaker 2>And try to be courageous and put yourself out there

0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:19.760
<v Speaker 2>and challenge your perfectionism in difficult, uncomfortable ways, but that's

0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.920
<v Speaker 2>really how you begin to overcome some of these tendencies.

0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.640
<v Speaker 1>I love that. I love the whole reflect and you know,

0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.200
<v Speaker 1>reframe it too. That's a huge piece. Do you touch

0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:33.480
<v Speaker 1>on in the book to perfectionalism in relationships? Because I

0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:35.920
<v Speaker 1>feel like for me, like I was like, Okay, I

0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:37.400
<v Speaker 1>have to be the perfect wife. I have to do

0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:39.360
<v Speaker 1>this perfectly how we did it in therapy, and it's

0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 1>like sometimes like holding all those things, it's just like

0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:45.360
<v Speaker 1>it's not perfect and I can't be because it's just

0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:48.960
<v Speaker 1>so there's so much more stress when you're trying to

0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:53.400
<v Speaker 1>go buy the playbook and it's just you feel like

0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:54.880
<v Speaker 1>you're feeling at it, and then it's like it's not

0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.320
<v Speaker 1>or it's not working, and I'm like that's the piece too.

0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:00.360
<v Speaker 1>I like when it didn't work, I'm like, well then

0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:02.760
<v Speaker 1>it's my fault or I didn't I didn't you know,

0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.360
<v Speaker 1>try harder, I didn't. I didn't. I wasn't good enough

0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.200
<v Speaker 1>in this, And so I think that was that's almost

0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:12.639
<v Speaker 1>where I played more of a perfectionist piece in relationships.

0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.280
<v Speaker 1>And then also what people wanted me to be rather

0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:17.800
<v Speaker 1>than who I actually was, because it was like, well,

0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:19.800
<v Speaker 1>this is what they think I am and want me

0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:21.440
<v Speaker 1>to be, so I'm going to be this person. But

0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:22.639
<v Speaker 1>it really wasn't that.

0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And that's so that's so important to say. And

0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.120
<v Speaker 2>this is something that a lot of people will will

0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:34.399
<v Speaker 2>struggle with, this sense that we have to be a

0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:38.720
<v Speaker 2>certain we have to have a certain relationship, we have

0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.120
<v Speaker 2>to be a certain person in that relationship, and we're

0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:45.520
<v Speaker 2>tyrannized almost by what k Master Colincsion Karen Hornet called

0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.560
<v Speaker 2>the tyranny should should be this should be? That should be?

0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.359
<v Speaker 2>You know, a perfect mother, should be a perfect partner,

0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.520
<v Speaker 2>should be a perfect lover, should be should be a

0:17:54.600 --> 0:18:00.120
<v Speaker 2>perfect person in the relationship. Just you know, there's all

0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.199
<v Speaker 2>sorts of so much pressure and expectation to be put

0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:08.159
<v Speaker 2>on ourselves to do things absolutely right. And you know,

0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:10.840
<v Speaker 2>life isn't like that. Life is messy, life is chaotic,

0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.159
<v Speaker 2>it's unpredictable. Things come out of the blue that we

0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.840
<v Speaker 2>don't expect, a global pandemic comes along and creates all

0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.520
<v Speaker 2>sorts of has can stress. These are things we just

0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:24.400
<v Speaker 2>simply can't control. And it's not about trying to be perfect,

0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:27.520
<v Speaker 2>because trying to be perfect doesn't give us any a

0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.080
<v Speaker 2>bandit of any rigg or root to accommodate these difficulties.

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.520
<v Speaker 2>In some predictabilities, what's more important is kind of an

0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.159
<v Speaker 2>imperfect or accepting that life is imperfect and our relationships

0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:40.040
<v Speaker 2>will be imperfect, and there'll be things that come out

0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:41.920
<v Speaker 2>of the blue we don't expect, and there'll be things

0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:47.520
<v Speaker 2>our partners do that we're not happy with or in

0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:50.440
<v Speaker 2>some ways they weren't expected and we feel let down.

0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.800
<v Speaker 2>It's important to recognize and let those feelings in, not

0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:58.680
<v Speaker 2>reallypress them, not try to recycle them into something else,

0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:02.840
<v Speaker 2>not avoid them or work around them, but actually address

0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:05.240
<v Speaker 2>them head on. There's just normal and natural and inevitable

0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.159
<v Speaker 2>parts of just being fallible human beings living in a

0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:13.800
<v Speaker 2>very unpredictable world and striving for the imperfect relationship and

0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.680
<v Speaker 2>accepting that all the relationships are imperfect, all people are imperfect,

0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:19.800
<v Speaker 2>and no relationship with person could ever be made perfect,

0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:24.800
<v Speaker 2>and that really is okay. That helps us, That helps

0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.480
<v Speaker 2>us navigate those challenging times in much healthier ways and

0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 2>be prepared for the moments when things don't go quite

0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:32.920
<v Speaker 2>to plan. So I think that's so important.

0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, I agree with you, Thomas. Where can our

0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:36.520
<v Speaker 1>listeners find you.

0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.760
<v Speaker 2>You can find me on Google to be typing Thomas Curran.

0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.720
<v Speaker 2>I'll come up and all the links to socials are available.

0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.240
<v Speaker 2>And the book or my book, The Perfection Trap is

0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.320
<v Speaker 2>out in all good bookstores and online, so again you

0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:55.159
<v Speaker 2>can search for it on Google and it will come up.

0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:57.840
<v Speaker 1>You find that amazing ad to Kart, The Perfection Trap

0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:00.199
<v Speaker 1>embracing the power of good enough. Thank you so much

0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:00.960
<v Speaker 1>Thomas for coming on.

0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:02.560
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me.

0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:12.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, goodbye, m