Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.
Speaker 1: On today's wind About It Thursday Therapy, We've got Thomas
Speaker 1: kran So. He is a professor of psychology at the
Speaker 1: London School of Economics and an author of a landmark
Speaker 1: study that the BBC hailed as the first to compare
Speaker 1: perfectionism across generations. He's had his ted talks, he's been
Speaker 1: talking all about it. His new book is out, The
Speaker 1: Perfection Trap, Embracing the power of good enough. So let's
Speaker 1: get him on and talk all about it Hill. Like you, hi, Thomas, how.
Speaker 2: Are you good? Very well? Thank you? How are ye?
Speaker 1: I am really good? Your book, The Perfection Trap, it's
Speaker 1: embracing the power of good enough and it's it's interesting.
Speaker 1: When I was reading your rundown, I was like, oh, ironic,
Speaker 1: I have a tattoo enough like on my arm because
Speaker 1: I feel like it's it's always been my biggest thing
Speaker 1: that has rotated in my brain, like I'm not good enough,
Speaker 1: I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough. And when
Speaker 1: I got divorced a couple of years ago, I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to tattoo enough on my arm and I
Speaker 1: need to look at it every single day because it's
Speaker 1: one of the hardest things to sing in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh definitely. And this particularly in this culture as well,
Speaker 2: where there's always something more to do right there, it's
Speaker 2: really difficult to feel like you're ever enough because everything else,
Speaker 2: everybody else, and all around this needs to be racing away.
Speaker 2: So it's so important to remind us of that all
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: So why perfectionalism, Like when you wrote this book, is
Speaker 1: it something that you personally struggled with or is it
Speaker 1: something where like this is just something that I'm seeing
Speaker 1: that needs to be readdressed.
Speaker 2: Both actually, certainly something I struggle with in my own
Speaker 2: life and has can contribute to quite significant mental health problems.
Speaker 2: And I'm actually divorced too, and I wonder whether it's
Speaker 2: a little bit to do with that as well. And
Speaker 2: also just everywhere, like you know, I mean, I'm teaching people,
Speaker 2: so I see I interact with young people a lot.
Speaker 2: You see it everywhere, so much perfections right now, fear
Speaker 2: of failure, fear of doing things wrong, fear of doing
Speaker 2: things imperfectly. So that was kind of where it came from.
Speaker 2: You know, I was feeling these things, I was seeing
Speaker 2: these things, and I just I was an academic, so
Speaker 2: I'm just genuinely curious as to, oh, what's going on here?
Speaker 2: Is this? Like, is this the new zeitgeist? Is this?
Speaker 2: Is this something that we need to be paying attention to?
Speaker 2: So that's kind of where it started.
Speaker 1: And then is it something where I mean, obviously I
Speaker 1: feel like it's a repeat sentence all the time. But
Speaker 1: social media, social media, like you need having to compare
Speaker 1: and be perfect, and especially with children too. You know.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm like, I don't even want my daughter
Speaker 1: to have social media because I don't want her to
Speaker 1: have to have that like comparison, you know, to filter
Speaker 1: things or to make herself look different on something. And
Speaker 1: you know, I even, like personally had to stop using
Speaker 1: filters because I'm like, well, that's not what I look like,
Speaker 1: even though I like it better, but I don't. That's
Speaker 1: that's not me. So do you Is that something else
Speaker 1: too that you've seen be a negative trend in the
Speaker 1: reach to being good enough?
Speaker 2: I think so. So social media is interesting because it's
Speaker 2: not all bad. There's some really positive elements to social
Speaker 2: media bringing you know, particularly the communal elements and bringing
Speaker 2: people together around shared interest and all the rest of it.
Speaker 2: But obviously there is also a darker side, and it's
Speaker 2: exactly what you're alluding to there, the social comparison kind
Speaker 2: of limitless images of everyone else's perfect lives and lifestyle
Speaker 2: as they invariably going to have an impact on the
Speaker 2: way that we feel about ourselves. And I don't know
Speaker 2: if there's any doubt the data is clear on this,
Speaker 2: But also you know, you don't really need the data.
Speaker 2: You just have to go onto these platforms to see
Speaker 2: how they work and to know that that's going to
Speaker 2: have an impact on our perceptions about what's realistic or
Speaker 2: what we should be aspiring to and the kind of
Speaker 2: desirability and the obtainability of those ideals. They clearly they're
Speaker 2: pretty rejected at US twenty four seven on those platforms,
Speaker 2: and naturally, I think we're going to interpret them as
Speaker 2: needs to be perfect.
Speaker 1: What have you seen in the mental health area around
Speaker 1: this perfection trap?
Speaker 2: Well, perfectionism is really curious because right now you see
Speaker 2: a lot of it, and I think there's a begrudging
Speaker 2: acceptance of perfectionism being a necessary evil. I suppose you
Speaker 2: could call it a favorite flow. So on the one hand,
Speaker 2: we have this idea that we kind of know it
Speaker 2: has some baggage, but at the same time we think
Speaker 2: it's something that helps us succeed or moves us forward.
Speaker 2: And if you talk to perfectionistic people and are certainly
Speaker 2: one of these people, they will say say to you
Speaker 2: that you know everything and all around me could be
Speaker 2: collapsing right, things could be going wrong. I could be
Speaker 2: really in a hole in my personal life, work life,
Speaker 2: whatever it might be. But perfectionism is the one thing
Speaker 2: keeping me going. It's the one thing holding me up
Speaker 2: in the world. When all of this other stuff is coming,
Speaker 2: it feels like it's crashing down. And really the point
Speaker 2: that book, the biggest reason why I wrote the book
Speaker 2: was to what it was to really push through that myth,
Speaker 2: kind of almost smash through it, because it's actually the
Speaker 2: perfectionism that's going to be at the root of those issues.
Speaker 2: It's perfectionism is going to be creating those problems and
Speaker 2: exacerbating and amplifying those problems.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: And until we recognize that, it's really difficult for us
Speaker 2: to turn turn the corner on this kind of lionization
Speaker 2: of perfectionism wider society. And there are many reasons why
Speaker 2: perfections and contributes to mental health, but the correlations are
Speaker 2: really strong, and and and it's rising among young people.
Speaker 2: So those two, those two things really really mean that
Speaker 2: we should be paying attention to perfectionism when it has
Speaker 2: it's rising.
Speaker 1: Do you see it more in men or women?
Speaker 2: So this is a question I get asked a lot,
Speaker 2: and the data is inconclusive. So when you look across
Speaker 2: the piece that you tend to find there's not much
Speaker 2: of a relationship between gender and levels of perfectionism, which
Speaker 2: is really interesting and we didn't expect to see that.
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean to say that there won't be
Speaker 2: context and situations and environmental factors that mean perfectionistic expectations
Speaker 2: way heavily on one gender right over another. And I
Speaker 2: think there's plenty of anecdotal sociological evidence to suggest that
Speaker 2: females in particular are under the microscope, particularly when it
Speaker 2: comes to image ideals, ways in which they are told
Speaker 2: they should behave, they should look and appear, and all
Speaker 2: the rest of it that men don't necessarily have to
Speaker 2: contend with. So there's an argument that although mean levels
Speaker 2: in the aggregate are fairly similar, that doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: we don't have to deal with context where perfectionism is
Speaker 2: demanded us as some in different measure, And I think
Speaker 2: there's an eye to suggest, as I say, females will
Speaker 2: probably have a lot more to condemn with the moles.
Speaker 1: What is there any studies about ages of kids, like
Speaker 1: when that starts to become a problem.
Speaker 2: So, like all personality characteristics, they start to crystallize in
Speaker 2: that early adolescent phase, so around twelve thirteen fourteen, where
Speaker 2: young people really begin to pick up character characteristics and
Speaker 2: take on a personality. But that doesn't necessarily mean to
Speaker 2: say that these perfectionism is genetically inherited to a great extent.
Speaker 2: So about thirty to forty percent of perfectionism comes from
Speaker 2: parents and comes from genes. There's nothing we can do
Speaker 2: about that, right, they're just kind of born with dut predisposition.
Speaker 2: But then the environment and all around us explains the rest.
Speaker 2: So what's left over is explained in the environment that
Speaker 2: we grow up into. And there are many different social
Speaker 2: forces that can amplify perfecttionistic tendencies, and I talk about
Speaker 2: them in the book, things like we just discussed social media,
Speaker 2: but schooling, parenting, the workplace, social media, advertising and all
Speaker 2: these kind of more broader cultural forces, and they tend
Speaker 2: to sort of crystallize around that young, young, early adolescent stage,
Speaker 2: but they can also be triggered later later in life too,
Speaker 2: and that was certainly a case for me. I grew
Speaker 2: up in a working class family. The need to excel
Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily too strong. They need to get bios a
Speaker 2: lot stronger. However, as I elevated and moved myself into
Speaker 2: a different world where the expectations were really really high
Speaker 2: to perform to an exceptional level, to kind of lift
Speaker 2: myself above other people in the professional world, that's when
Speaker 2: my perfectionism started to be triggered. So I had this predisposition,
Speaker 2: and then once I was in a really pressurized competitive environment,
Speaker 2: that's when the problem started to creep in. That's perfection
Speaker 2: has and really started to rear its head. So you
Speaker 2: tend to see it in earlier adolescens start to creep in,
Speaker 2: and there are many many signs you can look for,
Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean to say that it can't come
Speaker 2: on at a later life stage either.
Speaker 1: Sure, what do you think is the biggest damage that
Speaker 1: perfectionalism does to somebody?
Speaker 2: It's really tough. So in the scientific ligity corporfectionism a
Speaker 2: transdiagnostic risk factor, and what that means is that perfectionism
Speaker 2: can contribute to all manner of psychological difficulties and not
Speaker 2: just those perhaps we often associated with so obsessive tendencies
Speaker 2: for instance. And the reason why it contributes all sorts
Speaker 2: of psychological difficulties like depression, anxiety, a sense of ruminative guilt, shame.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of shame among perfectionistic people. Self conscious emotions,
Speaker 2: self presentation, concerns, worries about how we look up here
Speaker 2: and perform relatives to other people. All manner of different
Speaker 2: psychological difficulties is wrapped up in perfection and it's because
Speaker 2: perfectionists find it really difficult to manage and deal with
Speaker 2: challenge and setbacks. So what tends to happen with perfectionism
Speaker 2: is when things are going okay, there's a sense of
Speaker 2: affections that we're kind of okay, we're not too bad,
Speaker 2: we're doing all right, things are going reasonably well. We're
Speaker 2: not failing. That's the important thing. But as soon as
Speaker 2: we encounter some setback, challenge or failure, that's when the
Speaker 2: self conscious emotions at shane. That deal is triggered and
Speaker 2: that sets in motion and overcompensatory cycle, whereby we feel
Speaker 2: like we're not good enough, We feel like we've let
Speaker 2: ourselves down, we feel like we've let other people down.
Speaker 2: The validation and approval that we so need to feel
Speaker 2: good about ourselves is not present, and in some cases
Speaker 2: we feel rejected or criticized, and so in order to
Speaker 2: almost remedy those self conscious emotions, remedy that shame, we overcompensate.
Speaker 2: We set ourselves even higher goals next time, because in
Speaker 2: order to gain the validation of approve, approval of other
Speaker 2: people back, we need to be perfect, so we set
Speaker 2: higher goals. We find ourselves in situations of failure because
Speaker 2: the goals are too high in the first place, we
Speaker 2: feel even more anxious, even more depressed. That self esteem plummets,
Speaker 2: and then we overcompensate again, so we say even higher
Speaker 2: goals and so sets in sight and train this cycle
Speaker 2: of self defeat, whereby you can see lots of different
Speaker 2: cyclogs grow under starting to creep in low mood, anxiety, depression,
Speaker 2: and left untreated, left unchecked, that can that can lead
Speaker 2: to some quite significant mentalblems, hopelessness, helplessness, and in some
Speaker 2: cases well so this is why perfectionism is so incredibly
Speaker 2: damaging because as soon as we hit setbacks, challenge failures,
Speaker 2: we can we can quickly descend and so and perfectionism
Speaker 2: really creates a very negative feedback leap in that respect.
Speaker 1: So in your book, the perfection trap is there. You know,
Speaker 1: obviously you give tools and stuff like what are some
Speaker 1: of the tools that people will be able to get
Speaker 1: from from your book to like help with you know,
Speaker 1: manage it, and then yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's all sorts of different things we can do.
Speaker 2: I think the first thing is to recognize that perfectionism
Speaker 2: is a problem. So, as I mentioned, a lot of
Speaker 2: people will associate perfection and something that's very positive or
Speaker 2: something it's carrying them forward, something that's helping them through
Speaker 2: these difficult periods. But that's simply not the case, and
Speaker 2: the data suggests it can create a lot of psychological
Speaker 2: problems with very little performance actually interestingly, so I think
Speaker 2: that's the first thing. The first thing to recognize is
Speaker 2: that we need to understand it's a problem and then
Speaker 2: begin to let go. And we can do that in
Speaker 2: a number of different ways. That the first and the
Speaker 2: thing I've really focused on in the book is self
Speaker 2: acceptance I think are so important being comfortable in our
Speaker 2: own skin. And that's easy to than done, of course,
Speaker 2: especially in this culture where we're constantly poured in different
Speaker 2: directions and tod we should be more, have more, do more.
Speaker 2: But nevertheless, it's so important to try to reconnect with ourselves,
Speaker 2: to show ourselves to be vulnerable, to be courageous, to
Speaker 2: do things that we find that give us purpose and joy,
Speaker 2: even if we're not world champion at them, even if
Speaker 2: we're not exceptional. It's really important we push ourselves out there.
Speaker 2: So give you a couple of examples. In the workplace,
Speaker 2: for instance, if you find public speaking. A lot of
Speaker 2: people find public speaking very difficult. If you think that
Speaker 2: public speaking is going to challenge that perfect persona that
Speaker 2: you're looking to put out into the world because you
Speaker 2: feel like you're not a very good public speaking you're
Speaker 2: not very confident, or you're not verarticular, or whatever it
Speaker 2: might be, then you will tend withhold yourself from putting
Speaker 2: yourself forward for those situations because you don't want to
Speaker 2: show any deficiency, your limitation if you're a perfectionist. So
Speaker 2: I would encourage you tomorrow to go out and put
Speaker 2: your hand up to do that thing that challenges that
Speaker 2: that perfect person in your mind's eye, and public begins
Speaker 2: really good one. But it could be writing a project,
Speaker 2: It could be putting your hand up to shairing or
Speaker 2: hands meeting. It could be something in your personal life,
Speaker 2: you know, playing music, singing, dancing, stuff that you feel
Speaker 2: like you might be rubbish up. But never let's give
Speaker 2: you some sense enjoy it. I think this is so
Speaker 2: important because what those moments of discomfort, and they will
Speaker 2: be uncomfortable because this is an uncomfortable process. But what
Speaker 2: they teach you is something really important about the perfect
Speaker 2: person that you're trying to emulate, and they teach you that, really,
Speaker 2: is it worth living in fear trying to be this
Speaker 2: perfect person or actually showing ourselves being vulnerable. Is that
Speaker 2: as catastrophic as we've had it in our mind's eye
Speaker 2: that it might be? And often it's the case that
Speaker 2: we put ourselves form we do a great job, But
Speaker 2: even if we don't do a great job, the consequences
Speaker 2: of that set back, difficulty, challenge are often not catastrophic
Speaker 2: as we often think they might be. So this is
Speaker 2: all about reframing, This is all about pushing ourselves out
Speaker 2: there importantly too about being compassionate to ourselves. And things
Speaker 2: don't go well, so you're going to encounter set back, challenge.
Speaker 2: Make sure you're kind to yourself in those moments. Don't
Speaker 2: fall into a bit of self loathing like you're like
Speaker 2: you'll want to in the moment. That's also really really important.
Speaker 2: And secondly, reframe, reframe, reframe, reframe, think about what it
Speaker 2: is that you're doing. Ask yourself. Are those kind of
Speaker 2: very rigid and narrow thought process black and white thinking?
Speaker 2: It's associate perfections and mustard. Is I have to do that?
Speaker 2: If I don't do this, and the catastrophs can happen?
Speaker 2: Like how much we actually believe those things? Write them down,
Speaker 2: rate them, reflect on them, and try to reframe them
Speaker 2: to find more compassionate ways forward. So does it have
Speaker 2: to or is it would have a like to or
Speaker 2: this would be good to have done? Or if I
Speaker 2: don't quite make this target, then this target, which is
Speaker 2: slightly lower perhaps is okay. It's good enough. So progress
Speaker 2: is better than perfection. Good enough really is good enough?
Speaker 2: And try to be courageous and put yourself out there
Speaker 2: and challenge your perfectionism in difficult, uncomfortable ways, but that's
Speaker 2: really how you begin to overcome some of these tendencies.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love the whole reflect and you know,
Speaker 1: reframe it too. That's a huge piece. Do you touch
Speaker 1: on in the book to perfectionalism in relationships? Because I
Speaker 1: feel like for me, like I was like, Okay, I
Speaker 1: have to be the perfect wife. I have to do
Speaker 1: this perfectly how we did it in therapy, and it's
Speaker 1: like sometimes like holding all those things, it's just like
Speaker 1: it's not perfect and I can't be because it's just
Speaker 1: so there's so much more stress when you're trying to
Speaker 1: go buy the playbook and it's just you feel like
Speaker 1: you're feeling at it, and then it's like it's not
Speaker 1: or it's not working, and I'm like that's the piece too.
Speaker 1: I like when it didn't work, I'm like, well then
Speaker 1: it's my fault or I didn't I didn't you know,
Speaker 1: try harder, I didn't. I didn't. I wasn't good enough
Speaker 1: in this, And so I think that was that's almost
Speaker 1: where I played more of a perfectionist piece in relationships.
Speaker 1: And then also what people wanted me to be rather
Speaker 1: than who I actually was, because it was like, well,
Speaker 1: this is what they think I am and want me
Speaker 1: to be, so I'm going to be this person. But
Speaker 1: it really wasn't that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's so that's so important to say. And
Speaker 2: this is something that a lot of people will will
Speaker 2: struggle with, this sense that we have to be a
Speaker 2: certain we have to have a certain relationship, we have
Speaker 2: to be a certain person in that relationship, and we're
Speaker 2: tyrannized almost by what k Master Colincsion Karen Hornet called
Speaker 2: the tyranny should should be this should be? That should be?
Speaker 2: You know, a perfect mother, should be a perfect partner,
Speaker 2: should be a perfect lover, should be should be a
Speaker 2: perfect person in the relationship. Just you know, there's all
Speaker 2: sorts of so much pressure and expectation to be put
Speaker 2: on ourselves to do things absolutely right. And you know,
Speaker 2: life isn't like that. Life is messy, life is chaotic,
Speaker 2: it's unpredictable. Things come out of the blue that we
Speaker 2: don't expect, a global pandemic comes along and creates all
Speaker 2: sorts of has can stress. These are things we just
Speaker 2: simply can't control. And it's not about trying to be perfect,
Speaker 2: because trying to be perfect doesn't give us any a
Speaker 2: bandit of any rigg or root to accommodate these difficulties.
Speaker 2: In some predictabilities, what's more important is kind of an
Speaker 2: imperfect or accepting that life is imperfect and our relationships
Speaker 2: will be imperfect, and there'll be things that come out
Speaker 2: of the blue we don't expect, and there'll be things
Speaker 2: our partners do that we're not happy with or in
Speaker 2: some ways they weren't expected and we feel let down.
Speaker 2: It's important to recognize and let those feelings in, not
Speaker 2: reallypress them, not try to recycle them into something else,
Speaker 2: not avoid them or work around them, but actually address
Speaker 2: them head on. There's just normal and natural and inevitable
Speaker 2: parts of just being fallible human beings living in a
Speaker 2: very unpredictable world and striving for the imperfect relationship and
Speaker 2: accepting that all the relationships are imperfect, all people are imperfect,
Speaker 2: and no relationship with person could ever be made perfect,
Speaker 2: and that really is okay. That helps us, That helps
Speaker 2: us navigate those challenging times in much healthier ways and
Speaker 2: be prepared for the moments when things don't go quite
Speaker 2: to plan. So I think that's so important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I agree with you, Thomas. Where can our
Speaker 1: listeners find you.
Speaker 2: You can find me on Google to be typing Thomas Curran.
Speaker 2: I'll come up and all the links to socials are available.
Speaker 2: And the book or my book, The Perfection Trap is
Speaker 2: out in all good bookstores and online, so again you
Speaker 2: can search for it on Google and it will come up.
Speaker 1: You find that amazing ad to Kart, The Perfection Trap
Speaker 1: embracing the power of good enough. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: Thomas for coming on.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Okay, goodbye, m