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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.

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Speaker 1: On today's wind About It Thursday Therapy, We've got Thomas

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Speaker 1: kran So. He is a professor of psychology at the

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Speaker 1: London School of Economics and an author of a landmark

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Speaker 1: study that the BBC hailed as the first to compare

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Speaker 1: perfectionism across generations. He's had his ted talks, he's been

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Speaker 1: talking all about it. His new book is out, The

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Speaker 1: Perfection Trap, Embracing the power of good enough. So let's

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Speaker 1: get him on and talk all about it Hill. Like you, hi, Thomas, how.

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Speaker 2: Are you good? Very well? Thank you? How are ye?

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Speaker 1: I am really good? Your book, The Perfection Trap, it's

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Speaker 1: embracing the power of good enough and it's it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: When I was reading your rundown, I was like, oh, ironic,

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Speaker 1: I have a tattoo enough like on my arm because

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's it's always been my biggest thing

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Speaker 1: that has rotated in my brain, like I'm not good enough,

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Speaker 1: I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough. And when

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Speaker 1: I got divorced a couple of years ago, I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tattoo enough on my arm and I

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Speaker 1: need to look at it every single day because it's

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Speaker 1: one of the hardest things to sing in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh definitely. And this particularly in this culture as well,

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Speaker 2: where there's always something more to do right there, it's

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Speaker 2: really difficult to feel like you're ever enough because everything else,

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Speaker 2: everybody else, and all around this needs to be racing away.

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Speaker 2: So it's so important to remind us of that all

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 1: So why perfectionalism, Like when you wrote this book, is

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Speaker 1: it something that you personally struggled with or is it

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Speaker 1: something where like this is just something that I'm seeing

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Speaker 1: that needs to be readdressed.

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Speaker 2: Both actually, certainly something I struggle with in my own

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Speaker 2: life and has can contribute to quite significant mental health problems.

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Speaker 2: And I'm actually divorced too, and I wonder whether it's

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Speaker 2: a little bit to do with that as well. And

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Speaker 2: also just everywhere, like you know, I mean, I'm teaching people,

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Speaker 2: so I see I interact with young people a lot.

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Speaker 2: You see it everywhere, so much perfections right now, fear

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Speaker 2: of failure, fear of doing things wrong, fear of doing

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Speaker 2: things imperfectly. So that was kind of where it came from.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was feeling these things, I was seeing

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Speaker 2: these things, and I just I was an academic, so

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Speaker 2: I'm just genuinely curious as to, oh, what's going on here?

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Speaker 2: Is this? Like, is this the new zeitgeist? Is this?

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Speaker 2: Is this something that we need to be paying attention to?

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Speaker 2: So that's kind of where it started.

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Speaker 1: And then is it something where I mean, obviously I

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Speaker 1: feel like it's a repeat sentence all the time. But

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Speaker 1: social media, social media, like you need having to compare

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Speaker 1: and be perfect, and especially with children too. You know.

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Speaker 1: That's why I'm like, I don't even want my daughter

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Speaker 1: to have social media because I don't want her to

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Speaker 1: have to have that like comparison, you know, to filter

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Speaker 1: things or to make herself look different on something. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I even, like personally had to stop using

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Speaker 1: filters because I'm like, well, that's not what I look like,

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Speaker 1: even though I like it better, but I don't. That's

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Speaker 1: that's not me. So do you Is that something else

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Speaker 1: too that you've seen be a negative trend in the

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Speaker 1: reach to being good enough?

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Speaker 2: I think so. So social media is interesting because it's

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Speaker 2: not all bad. There's some really positive elements to social

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Speaker 2: media bringing you know, particularly the communal elements and bringing

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Speaker 2: people together around shared interest and all the rest of it.

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Speaker 2: But obviously there is also a darker side, and it's

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Speaker 2: exactly what you're alluding to there, the social comparison kind

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Speaker 2: of limitless images of everyone else's perfect lives and lifestyle

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Speaker 2: as they invariably going to have an impact on the

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Speaker 2: way that we feel about ourselves. And I don't know

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Speaker 2: if there's any doubt the data is clear on this,

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Speaker 2: But also you know, you don't really need the data.

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Speaker 2: You just have to go onto these platforms to see

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Speaker 2: how they work and to know that that's going to

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Speaker 2: have an impact on our perceptions about what's realistic or

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Speaker 2: what we should be aspiring to and the kind of

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Speaker 2: desirability and the obtainability of those ideals. They clearly they're

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Speaker 2: pretty rejected at US twenty four seven on those platforms,

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Speaker 2: and naturally, I think we're going to interpret them as

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Speaker 2: needs to be perfect.

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Speaker 1: What have you seen in the mental health area around

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Speaker 1: this perfection trap?

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Speaker 2: Well, perfectionism is really curious because right now you see

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Speaker 2: a lot of it, and I think there's a begrudging

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Speaker 2: acceptance of perfectionism being a necessary evil. I suppose you

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Speaker 2: could call it a favorite flow. So on the one hand,

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Speaker 2: we have this idea that we kind of know it

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Speaker 2: has some baggage, but at the same time we think

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Speaker 2: it's something that helps us succeed or moves us forward.

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Speaker 2: And if you talk to perfectionistic people and are certainly

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Speaker 2: one of these people, they will say say to you

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Speaker 2: that you know everything and all around me could be

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Speaker 2: collapsing right, things could be going wrong. I could be

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Speaker 2: really in a hole in my personal life, work life,

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Speaker 2: whatever it might be. But perfectionism is the one thing

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Speaker 2: keeping me going. It's the one thing holding me up

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Speaker 2: in the world. When all of this other stuff is coming,

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Speaker 2: it feels like it's crashing down. And really the point

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Speaker 2: that book, the biggest reason why I wrote the book

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Speaker 2: was to what it was to really push through that myth,

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Speaker 2: kind of almost smash through it, because it's actually the

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Speaker 2: perfectionism that's going to be at the root of those issues.

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Speaker 2: It's perfectionism is going to be creating those problems and

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Speaker 2: exacerbating and amplifying those problems.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And until we recognize that, it's really difficult for us

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Speaker 2: to turn turn the corner on this kind of lionization

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Speaker 2: of perfectionism wider society. And there are many reasons why

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Speaker 2: perfections and contributes to mental health, but the correlations are

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Speaker 2: really strong, and and and it's rising among young people.

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Speaker 2: So those two, those two things really really mean that

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Speaker 2: we should be paying attention to perfectionism when it has

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Speaker 2: it's rising.

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Speaker 1: Do you see it more in men or women?

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Speaker 2: So this is a question I get asked a lot,

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Speaker 2: and the data is inconclusive. So when you look across

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Speaker 2: the piece that you tend to find there's not much

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Speaker 2: of a relationship between gender and levels of perfectionism, which

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Speaker 2: is really interesting and we didn't expect to see that.

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Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean to say that there won't be

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Speaker 2: context and situations and environmental factors that mean perfectionistic expectations

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Speaker 2: way heavily on one gender right over another. And I

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Speaker 2: think there's plenty of anecdotal sociological evidence to suggest that

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Speaker 2: females in particular are under the microscope, particularly when it

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Speaker 2: comes to image ideals, ways in which they are told

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Speaker 2: they should behave, they should look and appear, and all

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Speaker 2: the rest of it that men don't necessarily have to

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Speaker 2: contend with. So there's an argument that although mean levels

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Speaker 2: in the aggregate are fairly similar, that doesn't mean that

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Speaker 2: we don't have to deal with context where perfectionism is

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Speaker 2: demanded us as some in different measure, And I think

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Speaker 2: there's an eye to suggest, as I say, females will

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Speaker 2: probably have a lot more to condemn with the moles.

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Speaker 1: What is there any studies about ages of kids, like

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Speaker 1: when that starts to become a problem.

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Speaker 2: So, like all personality characteristics, they start to crystallize in

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Speaker 2: that early adolescent phase, so around twelve thirteen fourteen, where

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Speaker 2: young people really begin to pick up character characteristics and

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Speaker 2: take on a personality. But that doesn't necessarily mean to

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Speaker 2: say that these perfectionism is genetically inherited to a great extent.

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Speaker 2: So about thirty to forty percent of perfectionism comes from

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Speaker 2: parents and comes from genes. There's nothing we can do

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Speaker 2: about that, right, they're just kind of born with dut predisposition.

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Speaker 2: But then the environment and all around us explains the rest.

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Speaker 2: So what's left over is explained in the environment that

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Speaker 2: we grow up into. And there are many different social

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Speaker 2: forces that can amplify perfecttionistic tendencies, and I talk about

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Speaker 2: them in the book, things like we just discussed social media,

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Speaker 2: but schooling, parenting, the workplace, social media, advertising and all

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Speaker 2: these kind of more broader cultural forces, and they tend

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Speaker 2: to sort of crystallize around that young, young, early adolescent stage,

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Speaker 2: but they can also be triggered later later in life too,

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Speaker 2: and that was certainly a case for me. I grew

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Speaker 2: up in a working class family. The need to excel

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Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily too strong. They need to get bios a

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Speaker 2: lot stronger. However, as I elevated and moved myself into

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Speaker 2: a different world where the expectations were really really high

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Speaker 2: to perform to an exceptional level, to kind of lift

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Speaker 2: myself above other people in the professional world, that's when

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Speaker 2: my perfectionism started to be triggered. So I had this predisposition,

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Speaker 2: and then once I was in a really pressurized competitive environment,

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Speaker 2: that's when the problem started to creep in. That's perfection

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Speaker 2: has and really started to rear its head. So you

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Speaker 2: tend to see it in earlier adolescens start to creep in,

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Speaker 2: and there are many many signs you can look for,

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Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean to say that it can't come

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Speaker 2: on at a later life stage either.

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Speaker 1: Sure, what do you think is the biggest damage that

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Speaker 1: perfectionalism does to somebody?

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Speaker 2: It's really tough. So in the scientific ligity corporfectionism a

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Speaker 2: transdiagnostic risk factor, and what that means is that perfectionism

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Speaker 2: can contribute to all manner of psychological difficulties and not

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Speaker 2: just those perhaps we often associated with so obsessive tendencies

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Speaker 2: for instance. And the reason why it contributes all sorts

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Speaker 2: of psychological difficulties like depression, anxiety, a sense of ruminative guilt, shame.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of shame among perfectionistic people. Self conscious emotions,

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Speaker 2: self presentation, concerns, worries about how we look up here

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Speaker 2: and perform relatives to other people. All manner of different

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Speaker 2: psychological difficulties is wrapped up in perfection and it's because

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Speaker 2: perfectionists find it really difficult to manage and deal with

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Speaker 2: challenge and setbacks. So what tends to happen with perfectionism

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Speaker 2: is when things are going okay, there's a sense of

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Speaker 2: affections that we're kind of okay, we're not too bad,

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Speaker 2: we're doing all right, things are going reasonably well. We're

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Speaker 2: not failing. That's the important thing. But as soon as

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Speaker 2: we encounter some setback, challenge or failure, that's when the

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Speaker 2: self conscious emotions at shane. That deal is triggered and

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Speaker 2: that sets in motion and overcompensatory cycle, whereby we feel

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Speaker 2: like we're not good enough, We feel like we've let

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Speaker 2: ourselves down, we feel like we've let other people down.

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Speaker 2: The validation and approval that we so need to feel

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Speaker 2: good about ourselves is not present, and in some cases

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Speaker 2: we feel rejected or criticized, and so in order to

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Speaker 2: almost remedy those self conscious emotions, remedy that shame, we overcompensate.

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Speaker 2: We set ourselves even higher goals next time, because in

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Speaker 2: order to gain the validation of approve, approval of other

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Speaker 2: people back, we need to be perfect, so we set

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Speaker 2: higher goals. We find ourselves in situations of failure because

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Speaker 2: the goals are too high in the first place, we

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Speaker 2: feel even more anxious, even more depressed. That self esteem plummets,

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Speaker 2: and then we overcompensate again, so we say even higher

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Speaker 2: goals and so sets in sight and train this cycle

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Speaker 2: of self defeat, whereby you can see lots of different

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Speaker 2: cyclogs grow under starting to creep in low mood, anxiety, depression,

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Speaker 2: and left untreated, left unchecked, that can that can lead

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Speaker 2: to some quite significant mentalblems, hopelessness, helplessness, and in some

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Speaker 2: cases well so this is why perfectionism is so incredibly

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Speaker 2: damaging because as soon as we hit setbacks, challenge failures,

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Speaker 2: we can we can quickly descend and so and perfectionism

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Speaker 2: really creates a very negative feedback leap in that respect.

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Speaker 1: So in your book, the perfection trap is there. You know,

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Speaker 1: obviously you give tools and stuff like what are some

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Speaker 1: of the tools that people will be able to get

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Speaker 1: from from your book to like help with you know,

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Speaker 1: manage it, and then yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's all sorts of different things we can do.

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Speaker 2: I think the first thing is to recognize that perfectionism

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Speaker 2: is a problem. So, as I mentioned, a lot of

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Speaker 2: people will associate perfection and something that's very positive or

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Speaker 2: something it's carrying them forward, something that's helping them through

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Speaker 2: these difficult periods. But that's simply not the case, and

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Speaker 2: the data suggests it can create a lot of psychological

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Speaker 2: problems with very little performance actually interestingly, so I think

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Speaker 2: that's the first thing. The first thing to recognize is

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Speaker 2: that we need to understand it's a problem and then

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Speaker 2: begin to let go. And we can do that in

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Speaker 2: a number of different ways. That the first and the

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Speaker 2: thing I've really focused on in the book is self

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Speaker 2: acceptance I think are so important being comfortable in our

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Speaker 2: own skin. And that's easy to than done, of course,

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Speaker 2: especially in this culture where we're constantly poured in different

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Speaker 2: directions and tod we should be more, have more, do more.

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Speaker 2: But nevertheless, it's so important to try to reconnect with ourselves,

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Speaker 2: to show ourselves to be vulnerable, to be courageous, to

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Speaker 2: do things that we find that give us purpose and joy,

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Speaker 2: even if we're not world champion at them, even if

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Speaker 2: we're not exceptional. It's really important we push ourselves out there.

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Speaker 2: So give you a couple of examples. In the workplace,

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Speaker 2: for instance, if you find public speaking. A lot of

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Speaker 2: people find public speaking very difficult. If you think that

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Speaker 2: public speaking is going to challenge that perfect persona that

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Speaker 2: you're looking to put out into the world because you

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Speaker 2: feel like you're not a very good public speaking you're

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Speaker 2: not very confident, or you're not verarticular, or whatever it

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Speaker 2: might be, then you will tend withhold yourself from putting

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Speaker 2: yourself forward for those situations because you don't want to

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Speaker 2: show any deficiency, your limitation if you're a perfectionist. So

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Speaker 2: I would encourage you tomorrow to go out and put

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Speaker 2: your hand up to do that thing that challenges that

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Speaker 2: that perfect person in your mind's eye, and public begins

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Speaker 2: really good one. But it could be writing a project,

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Speaker 2: It could be putting your hand up to shairing or

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Speaker 2: hands meeting. It could be something in your personal life,

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Speaker 2: you know, playing music, singing, dancing, stuff that you feel

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Speaker 2: like you might be rubbish up. But never let's give

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Speaker 2: you some sense enjoy it. I think this is so

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Speaker 2: important because what those moments of discomfort, and they will

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Speaker 2: be uncomfortable because this is an uncomfortable process. But what

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Speaker 2: they teach you is something really important about the perfect

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Speaker 2: person that you're trying to emulate, and they teach you that, really,

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Speaker 2: is it worth living in fear trying to be this

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Speaker 2: perfect person or actually showing ourselves being vulnerable. Is that

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Speaker 2: as catastrophic as we've had it in our mind's eye

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Speaker 2: that it might be? And often it's the case that

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Speaker 2: we put ourselves form we do a great job, But

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Speaker 2: even if we don't do a great job, the consequences

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Speaker 2: of that set back, difficulty, challenge are often not catastrophic

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Speaker 2: as we often think they might be. So this is

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Speaker 2: all about reframing, This is all about pushing ourselves out

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Speaker 2: there importantly too about being compassionate to ourselves. And things

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Speaker 2: don't go well, so you're going to encounter set back, challenge.

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Speaker 2: Make sure you're kind to yourself in those moments. Don't

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Speaker 2: fall into a bit of self loathing like you're like

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Speaker 2: you'll want to in the moment. That's also really really important.

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Speaker 2: And secondly, reframe, reframe, reframe, reframe, think about what it

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Speaker 2: is that you're doing. Ask yourself. Are those kind of

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Speaker 2: very rigid and narrow thought process black and white thinking?

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Speaker 2: It's associate perfections and mustard. Is I have to do that?

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Speaker 2: If I don't do this, and the catastrophs can happen?

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Speaker 2: Like how much we actually believe those things? Write them down,

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Speaker 2: rate them, reflect on them, and try to reframe them

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Speaker 2: to find more compassionate ways forward. So does it have

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Speaker 2: to or is it would have a like to or

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Speaker 2: this would be good to have done? Or if I

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Speaker 2: don't quite make this target, then this target, which is

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Speaker 2: slightly lower perhaps is okay. It's good enough. So progress

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Speaker 2: is better than perfection. Good enough really is good enough?

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Speaker 2: And try to be courageous and put yourself out there

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Speaker 2: and challenge your perfectionism in difficult, uncomfortable ways, but that's

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Speaker 2: really how you begin to overcome some of these tendencies.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I love the whole reflect and you know,

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Speaker 1: reframe it too. That's a huge piece. Do you touch

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Speaker 1: on in the book to perfectionalism in relationships? Because I

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Speaker 1: feel like for me, like I was like, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: have to be the perfect wife. I have to do

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Speaker 1: this perfectly how we did it in therapy, and it's

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Speaker 1: like sometimes like holding all those things, it's just like

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Speaker 1: it's not perfect and I can't be because it's just

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Speaker 1: so there's so much more stress when you're trying to

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Speaker 1: go buy the playbook and it's just you feel like

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Speaker 1: you're feeling at it, and then it's like it's not

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Speaker 1: or it's not working, and I'm like that's the piece too.

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Speaker 1: I like when it didn't work, I'm like, well then

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Speaker 1: it's my fault or I didn't I didn't you know,

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Speaker 1: try harder, I didn't. I didn't. I wasn't good enough

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Speaker 1: in this, And so I think that was that's almost

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Speaker 1: where I played more of a perfectionist piece in relationships.

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Speaker 1: And then also what people wanted me to be rather

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Speaker 1: than who I actually was, because it was like, well,

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Speaker 1: this is what they think I am and want me

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Speaker 1: to be, so I'm going to be this person. But

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Speaker 1: it really wasn't that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's so that's so important to say. And

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Speaker 2: this is something that a lot of people will will

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Speaker 2: struggle with, this sense that we have to be a

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Speaker 2: certain we have to have a certain relationship, we have

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Speaker 2: to be a certain person in that relationship, and we're

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Speaker 2: tyrannized almost by what k Master Colincsion Karen Hornet called

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Speaker 2: the tyranny should should be this should be? That should be?

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Speaker 2: You know, a perfect mother, should be a perfect partner,

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Speaker 2: should be a perfect lover, should be should be a

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Speaker 2: perfect person in the relationship. Just you know, there's all

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Speaker 2: sorts of so much pressure and expectation to be put

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Speaker 2: on ourselves to do things absolutely right. And you know,

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Speaker 2: life isn't like that. Life is messy, life is chaotic,

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Speaker 2: it's unpredictable. Things come out of the blue that we

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Speaker 2: don't expect, a global pandemic comes along and creates all

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Speaker 2: sorts of has can stress. These are things we just

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Speaker 2: simply can't control. And it's not about trying to be perfect,

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Speaker 2: because trying to be perfect doesn't give us any a

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Speaker 2: bandit of any rigg or root to accommodate these difficulties.

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Speaker 2: In some predictabilities, what's more important is kind of an

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Speaker 2: imperfect or accepting that life is imperfect and our relationships

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Speaker 2: will be imperfect, and there'll be things that come out

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Speaker 2: of the blue we don't expect, and there'll be things

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Speaker 2: our partners do that we're not happy with or in

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Speaker 2: some ways they weren't expected and we feel let down.

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Speaker 2: It's important to recognize and let those feelings in, not

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Speaker 2: reallypress them, not try to recycle them into something else,

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Speaker 2: not avoid them or work around them, but actually address

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Speaker 2: them head on. There's just normal and natural and inevitable

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Speaker 2: parts of just being fallible human beings living in a

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Speaker 2: very unpredictable world and striving for the imperfect relationship and

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Speaker 2: accepting that all the relationships are imperfect, all people are imperfect,

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Speaker 2: and no relationship with person could ever be made perfect,

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Speaker 2: and that really is okay. That helps us, That helps

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Speaker 2: us navigate those challenging times in much healthier ways and

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Speaker 2: be prepared for the moments when things don't go quite

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Speaker 2: to plan. So I think that's so important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I agree with you, Thomas. Where can our

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Speaker 1: listeners find you.

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Speaker 2: You can find me on Google to be typing Thomas Curran.

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Speaker 2: I'll come up and all the links to socials are available.

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Speaker 2: And the book or my book, The Perfection Trap is

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Speaker 2: out in all good bookstores and online, so again you

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Speaker 2: can search for it on Google and it will come up.

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Speaker 1: You find that amazing ad to Kart, The Perfection Trap

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Speaker 1: embracing the power of good enough. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: Thomas for coming on.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, goodbye, m