WEBVTT - Sam Altman v. Elon Musk v. Delaware

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet.

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<v Speaker 2>More than half the satellites in space are owned and

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<v Speaker 2>controlled by one man. Well, he's a legitimate super genius,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean legitimate.

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<v Speaker 1>He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year

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<v Speaker 1>it will be different.

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<v Speaker 3>He'll vote Republican.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a reason the US government is so reliant

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<v Speaker 2>on him. Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's

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<v Speaker 2>done nothing.

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<v Speaker 4>Anything he does, he's fascinating people.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, welcome to Elon, Inc. Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk.

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<v Speaker 2>It's March fifth, twenty twenty four. I'm Max Chafkin in

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<v Speaker 2>for David Papadopolis. This week we have courtroom drama for you.

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<v Speaker 2>We're looking at an Elon feud between him and open ai,

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<v Speaker 2>the maker of chat GBT. Last Thursday, Elon sued Sam Altman,

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<v Speaker 2>the co founder of open Ai, claiming that he breached

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<v Speaker 2>his contract by pursuing profit over the public good. The

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<v Speaker 2>funny thing is that Elon has his own for profit

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<v Speaker 2>AI company, x dot Ai. So there's some question about

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<v Speaker 2>whether or not this is like a high minded activity

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<v Speaker 2>or another sort of brilliant troll by a very troll

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<v Speaker 2>happy billionaire. We're going to talk about that, and then

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<v Speaker 2>later in the episode we're going to be talking about

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<v Speaker 2>another bit of legal action on Elon Musk stocket. The

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<v Speaker 2>lawyers who got Elon Musk's pay package, the fifty five

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<v Speaker 2>billion dollar pay package from Tesla, voided they want to

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<v Speaker 2>be paid get this six billion dollars and they don't

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<v Speaker 2>want cash, they want Tesla stock. So we will get

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<v Speaker 2>into all of that, and to do so, we've got

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<v Speaker 2>a great panel for you. We have gathered Sharene Geffar,

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<v Speaker 2>who covers AI for Bloomberg. Hey, Dana Hull, now officially

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg's chief Elon Musk reporter, Hello, Dana Hey. And Matt Levine,

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<v Speaker 2>author of Bloomberg Opinion's Money Stuff newsletter, who always seems

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<v Speaker 2>to get his vacations interrupted by Elon news Hello Matt.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I'm Bloomberg's unofficial Elon Musk correspondent.

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<v Speaker 2>So this lawsuit, first, let's start with Sharen. Can you

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<v Speaker 2>just give us an overview of what is in this complaint?

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<v Speaker 2>What is Elon Musk alleging?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, basically, Elon is claiming that when he invested

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<v Speaker 1>in open Ai and made a deal with Sam Altman

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<v Speaker 1>and the founders of the company that the plan was

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<v Speaker 1>for open ay to be a nonprofit. And Elon's claim

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<v Speaker 1>is that open ai has breached this contract and this

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<v Speaker 1>agreement by turning into a for profit company with you know,

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<v Speaker 1>heavy investment by Microsoft, and you know, the outcome is

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<v Speaker 1>he Elon wants to see Openey's research become public and

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<v Speaker 1>wants to rid open Ai of it agreement with Microsoft.

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<v Speaker 2>At this point, Matt, does this make sense? Like, can

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<v Speaker 2>a nonprofit donor sue a nonprofit for you know, not

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<v Speaker 2>being sufficiently good to humanity?

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<v Speaker 4>Not really? I mean, like normally the enforcement of nonprofit

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<v Speaker 4>missions is a matter for like the state attorney general,

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<v Speaker 4>not for individual donors, right, Otherwise you'd all the time

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<v Speaker 4>see donors saying, you know, I gave one hundred dollars

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<v Speaker 4>to this charity and they didn't do what I wanted.

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<v Speaker 4>But so that's why he's bringing a breach of contract action.

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<v Speaker 4>And it's very strange because they didn't sign any sort

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<v Speaker 4>of contract, right, Like He's like, well, I have this

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<v Speaker 4>email from Sam Altman from twenty fifteen that's basically a contract.

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<v Speaker 4>So it's a bit of a stretch as a legal action.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's an email, I think, and it's like there's

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<v Speaker 2>this just sort of a bunch of vague principles and

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<v Speaker 2>then this the articles of incorporation, and I guess there's

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<v Speaker 2>some maybe additional agreement in Elon's head, Dana. Why is

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<v Speaker 2>he doing this? I mean, I think it's tempting to

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<v Speaker 2>just sort of say, like this is just a guy

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<v Speaker 2>who loves a good stunt, keeping himself in the middle

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<v Speaker 2>of the news.

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<v Speaker 5>I think Elon just always has to be the man

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<v Speaker 5>in the arena. And Tesla's valuation was all about being

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<v Speaker 5>an EV company first mover advantage. Now it very much

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<v Speaker 5>rests on it being an AI company. And he sees

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<v Speaker 5>Sam as this big threat. I mean Sam is like

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<v Speaker 5>the golden boy now, right, like raising all this money,

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<v Speaker 5>and you know he's got this deal with Microsoft Open Ai.

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<v Speaker 5>He's back, you know, running open Ai. He's supposedly raising

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<v Speaker 5>money for like a chip venture, and like Elon is

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<v Speaker 5>very competitive, like he's got to be the alpha male.

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<v Speaker 5>And if you look at the landscape of AI titans,

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<v Speaker 5>Sam is like number one, and so Elon is going

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<v Speaker 5>for the jugular.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean he's been like a lot of the

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<v Speaker 2>language in this lawsuit. I noticed from like listening to

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<v Speaker 2>all these podcasts that Elon's been doing over the last

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<v Speaker 2>year or so, where he's sort of been, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of grumbling about about not getting enough credit for

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<v Speaker 2>this and also criticizing open Ai. What is he actually

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<v Speaker 2>looking for here? Like, what's the endgame? Is there any

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<v Speaker 2>kind of hope for some kind of resolution that would

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<v Speaker 2>be you know, advantageous to him.

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<v Speaker 5>I guess in his ideal world, what like the whole

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<v Speaker 5>open ai project falls apart, and like they have to

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<v Speaker 5>like reveal to the whole world what they're working on,

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<v Speaker 5>and I mean Stream knows better than I do what

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<v Speaker 5>the endgame would be here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So Elon's makes an interesting case here that open

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<v Speaker 1>ai has already reached AGI or artificial general intelligence, this

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<v Speaker 1>idea of when AI essentially surpasses or matches at least

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<v Speaker 1>the intelligence of humanity. And you know that that is

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<v Speaker 1>Openey's mission and has always been right to build AGI,

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<v Speaker 1>as is Googles, as is several other leading A companies.

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<v Speaker 1>Elon's making the case in this lawsuit that with GPT four,

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<v Speaker 1>open Ai has already achieved AGI. And at that point,

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<v Speaker 1>it actually is in their agreement with Microsoft that open

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<v Speaker 1>ai and Microsoft's contractual agreements do no longer hold once.

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<v Speaker 2>Open ai has reached AGI.

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<v Speaker 1>Now open Ai says, no, we are far off from

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<v Speaker 1>that GPT four. Our latest model is nowhere near being AGI.

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<v Speaker 1>How does the case in Elon is making which is

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<v Speaker 1>a bold one, and he actually cites some Microsoft research.

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<v Speaker 1>It's very interesting where a few Microsoft researchers did do

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<v Speaker 1>this paper recently saying that we see sparks of AGI

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<v Speaker 1>in the latest model. So he kind of uses Microsoft's

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<v Speaker 1>own researchers work to shoe their pail in this suit.

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<v Speaker 2>And we should say that open ai has not yet

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<v Speaker 2>commented on this lawsuit, although Bloomberg did report over the

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<v Speaker 2>weekend basically a bunch a couple of memos in which

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<v Speaker 2>they're waving it off, saying it's all bogus met Where

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<v Speaker 2>do you think this goes? I mean, do you think

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<v Speaker 2>this could wind up in court? Or is this gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be one of those lawsuits that I don't know, we

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<v Speaker 2>just never hear about again.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, he doesn't really settle, and like where are

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<v Speaker 4>they going to pay him? Like there's no settlement here. Right,

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<v Speaker 4>So it's going to go to court. My suspicion is

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<v Speaker 4>that he will lose fairly early on because of sort

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<v Speaker 4>of basic things like there was no contract, he has

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<v Speaker 4>no standing to sue, et cetera. But if that's not true,

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know. I mean, one reason, one strategic reason

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<v Speaker 4>he might be bringing this lawsuit is because if he

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<v Speaker 4>gets anywhere, he can get discovery right and he can

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<v Speaker 4>like find out stuff about the inner workings of open Ai,

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<v Speaker 4>which is really useful to him as a guy who's

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<v Speaker 4>building a competitor to open Ai.

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<v Speaker 2>And amazing tweet material to you.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of lawsuits

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<v Speaker 4>settle because for most people it is unpleasant and expensive

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<v Speaker 4>to conduct a lawsuit. For Elon Musk, it's extremely fun

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<v Speaker 4>and he has a lot of money. So I think

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<v Speaker 4>that he will end up not winning any substantive relief

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<v Speaker 4>from this lawsuit, but we'll have a lot of fun

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<v Speaker 4>doing it.

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<v Speaker 2>To me anyway, as a stunt, it's like a win win, right,

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<v Speaker 2>because on one hand, the judge could say, yes, open

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<v Speaker 2>Ai got to Agi and therefore it has to give up.

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<v Speaker 2>It's you know, has to this Microsoft partnership is dead

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<v Speaker 2>or on the other hand, a judge will have to say, no,

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<v Speaker 2>your your AI isn't very good, which would also be

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<v Speaker 2>good for Elon Musk. I think, Matt, how do you

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<v Speaker 2>rank this in the other sort of pantheon of dubious

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<v Speaker 2>Elon Musk lawsuits.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm sympathetic to this one. Like, I don't think he's

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<v Speaker 4>gonna win, you know, like I don't think that like

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<v Speaker 4>there was a contract, and I think, like the legal

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<v Speaker 4>theory here is dubious. But I look at this as

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<v Speaker 4>like not a piece of strategy or whatever. I look

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<v Speaker 4>at it as like he donated tens of millions of

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<v Speaker 4>dollars to a nonprofit that is now an eighty six

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<v Speaker 4>billion dollars startup that's raising money and commercializing stuff for MICROSOFTS.

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<v Speaker 4>And he's like, well, how did that work? Like, I

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<v Speaker 4>think that's a very reasonable complaint, like not as a

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<v Speaker 4>legal matter, just as like a you know, personal matter.

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<v Speaker 4>And so of course he's mad and he's bringing this

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<v Speaker 4>lot suit. I don't know, I'm sympathetic to that.

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<v Speaker 2>He's pointing to some real hypocrisy with open AI, which

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<v Speaker 2>is that like he's gone Sam Altman has gone around saying,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, AI is really out of control we got.

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<v Speaker 2>We gotta save the world from AI, and his solution

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<v Speaker 2>seems to be putting the AI into like every Microsoft product.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's something I think Musk kind a quote on

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<v Speaker 2>this that's been circulating where he said it says, if

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<v Speaker 2>you gave you know, money to save the Amazon and

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<v Speaker 2>instead it turned out that the saved Amazon charity was

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<v Speaker 2>actually just like cutting down trees. Dana, what do you

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<v Speaker 2>make of that?

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<v Speaker 5>I guess on its face, the idea that a nonprofit

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<v Speaker 5>is now like a financially very lucrative, highly valued part

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<v Speaker 5>of Microsoft maybe is problematic. I could see the I

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<v Speaker 5>could see the argument for that, But I think the

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<v Speaker 5>larger context here is that, like, Elon isn't just like

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<v Speaker 5>an investor who feels like he was duped. He is

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<v Speaker 5>a competitor. I mean, he has his own AI company,

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<v Speaker 5>and this is the same guy. Let us remind everyone

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<v Speaker 5>who made this big show of like signing a letter

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<v Speaker 5>saying that AI should be paused while he was like

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<v Speaker 5>secretly creating his own startup. So, like, I just don't

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<v Speaker 5>have a lot of empathy for Elon in this regard

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<v Speaker 5>because he's always got his own interest at play, and

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<v Speaker 5>right now his own interest is that through X and

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<v Speaker 5>X dot AI, he's trying to start his own competitor

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<v Speaker 5>to chat GPT, which is.

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<v Speaker 2>GROCK And so yeah, they're two competitors. Actually XAI and

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<v Speaker 2>Tesla is a competitor right in a sense.

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<v Speaker 5>If you take the take the view that like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>Tesla is trying to do full self driving, and like

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<v Speaker 5>Tesla has all this data and Tesla is training all

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<v Speaker 5>these models all the time. But I just want to

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<v Speaker 5>make sure there's you know, as long as everyone realizes that,

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<v Speaker 5>like you know, Elon is not just like an investor

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<v Speaker 5>who said that open ai is no longer a nonprofit

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<v Speaker 5>or is it really a nonprofit? He's like a tech

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<v Speaker 5>titan who has his own AI ambitions and see Sam

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<v Speaker 5>as the number one threat to what he's trying to accomplish.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Sharine, you're reading on this like as you look

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<v Speaker 2>at the competitive landscape. You know, we've talked with you

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<v Speaker 2>on earlier episodes about GROK. This kind of like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of surprisingly competent cat GPT clone like cat GPT,

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<v Speaker 2>but a little less woke. I mean, is this as

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<v Speaker 2>simple as like he could harm a competitor with this lawsuit?

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<v Speaker 2>He could He's you know, at the very least, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>making things a little annoying for Sam Altman, if not worse.

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<v Speaker 2>I think two things can be true.

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<v Speaker 1>I think open ai is clearly a competitor to Elon's company,

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<v Speaker 1>so he has an incentive there to go up against them.

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<v Speaker 1>On the other hand, it is true that open ai

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<v Speaker 1>started as a nonprofit and now it's not, and Elon

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<v Speaker 1>did donate a lot of money toward it, And so

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<v Speaker 1>I think that Elon's case brings up some valid questions

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<v Speaker 1>about the trajectory of open ai. And I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>his personal motivations and ins to can certainly be wrapped

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<v Speaker 1>into this case. It's hard to separate that out. But

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<v Speaker 1>I do think this is bringing some really you know,

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<v Speaker 1>worthwhile questions to surface.

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<v Speaker 2>What's like the realistic outcome though, could the judge be like, yes, yes,

0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:17.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, Gavel, gavel chat, GPT, GPT four is dead. Sorry,

0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, and now we have to like use Grock

0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:22.600
<v Speaker 2>when we're doing Excel or whatever in the future.

0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I don't think that the court is going

0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.079
<v Speaker 1>to mandate that you use any certain software, probably certainly

0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.560
<v Speaker 1>not Grock, but I do think I mean, look, I'm

0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:33.960
<v Speaker 1>not a legal expert. But from the legal analysis I

0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:36.760
<v Speaker 1>have seen, it seems like certainly this would be a

0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:41.280
<v Speaker 1>difficult case. But you could essentially force open ai sure

0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.240
<v Speaker 1>to like open source its models, or to go about

0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:46.760
<v Speaker 1>abiding by its contract in a different way in the

0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:48.600
<v Speaker 1>way that Elon wants it to, which is to say

0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.840
<v Speaker 1>that now Openey's contract with Microsoft is severed, we have

0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.200
<v Speaker 1>to open just license this stuff to the public, to

0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.640
<v Speaker 1>Elon and anyone else. I think it's more about open

0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.959
<v Speaker 1>sourcing the software of open ai rather than any certain

0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:01.280
<v Speaker 1>person using any certain tool.

0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.360
<v Speaker 2>So, like Matt's saying, a public good right right.

0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.360
<v Speaker 4>One thing I think is interested about this case is

0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.240
<v Speaker 4>that like Sam Altman and Elon Musk that got together

0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.880
<v Speaker 4>to found a nonprofit. These are guys who are like

0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:17.079
<v Speaker 4>so deeply part of like the startup tech silicon value ecosystem,

0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.079
<v Speaker 4>where like like Elon Musk clearly thinks he's doing a

0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.920
<v Speaker 4>lot of good for the world by starting for profit companies.

0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.760
<v Speaker 4>It's just strange that they decided the way to do

0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.400
<v Speaker 4>their most good for the world is by starting a

0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.000
<v Speaker 4>nonprofit because they never had that thought before about all

0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.199
<v Speaker 4>of their other businesses. And like Elon Musk is running

0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:34.640
<v Speaker 4>his own AI business out of a for profit company.

0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:39.400
<v Speaker 4>It just feels like everyone here is unfamiliar with what

0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:43.240
<v Speaker 4>a nonprofit is and uncomfortable with it, and everyone just

0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:44.800
<v Speaker 4>kind of wants it to be a for profit business.

0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.040
<v Speaker 4>But it gives Elan some some leverage to mess with

0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:50.559
<v Speaker 4>Sam Altman's for profit nonprofit.

0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:52.680
<v Speaker 1>I do think being a nonprofit was part of the

0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.960
<v Speaker 1>pitch that appealed to certain researchers in the AI community.

0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:58.160
<v Speaker 1>I think we have to remember that, like there's such

0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.600
<v Speaker 1>fierce competition for these people who are are you know,

0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:04.439
<v Speaker 1>PhDs and really understand AI, and so I do think

0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.679
<v Speaker 1>that was a good way to differentiate what openee was

0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:08.719
<v Speaker 1>doing compared to Google at the time. And that's really

0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:10.360
<v Speaker 1>if you look at the history of OPENINGI, it was

0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:14.600
<v Speaker 1>created as this antidote to Google's private development of potentially

0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:15.960
<v Speaker 1>this life changing AGI.

0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:18.080
<v Speaker 2>So I think that's why it started.

0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:20.360
<v Speaker 1>Now, like like you're pointing out, whether everyone really understood

0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.880
<v Speaker 1>what it means to be a nonprofit is a different question.

0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. I think Also another thing that was very important

0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.080
<v Speaker 4>to attracting researchers was paying them a lot of money,

0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.120
<v Speaker 4>including in stock options, which you can't really do it

0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.560
<v Speaker 4>a nonprofit and they did anyway, so like, yeah, the

0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:38.720
<v Speaker 4>for profit is also very important to attracting researchers.

0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:42.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, absolutely well, and not only that, but like it's

0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.960
<v Speaker 3>not only a form of governance that they're all unfamiliar with,

0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.360
<v Speaker 3>but it's one that they've in previous years talked about

0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:50.560
<v Speaker 3>how how bad it is, right, Like, Like the whole point,

0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:54.240
<v Speaker 3>the whole premise of Elon Musk's like thing is that,

0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 3>you know, Silicon Valley, this like startup tech, startup way

0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:57.520
<v Speaker 3>of doing.

0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:01.160
<v Speaker 2>Things is uniquely you know, innovative. It's like it's like

0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:03.480
<v Speaker 2>basically the way to solve all the world's problems, and

0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:07.000
<v Speaker 2>you kind of have open AI maybe pursuing that, and

0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:09.360
<v Speaker 2>like Elon Musk is on the outside of it for

0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.400
<v Speaker 2>a change and is like, I don't know, a little jealous.

0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:14.560
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. I think if you asked Elon Musk on any

0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.679
<v Speaker 4>day except last week, who does more good for the world,

0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.080
<v Speaker 4>nonprofits or for profit startups? You would have said for

0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.920
<v Speaker 4>profit startups, right, But then last week it's like nonprofits.

0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.480
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's it for AI. We're gonna leave Scharen, let

0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.000
<v Speaker 2>her get back to reporting on this as it develops.

0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:30.880
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Sharen. For your time today.

0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:32.120
<v Speaker 1>Great, thanks for having me.

0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:39.680
<v Speaker 2>All right, let's turn to Delaware, where in January Elon

0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:43.760
<v Speaker 2>Musk's enormous fifty five billion dollar pay package was invalidated

0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:45.920
<v Speaker 2>by a judge and now we have a new fight

0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.800
<v Speaker 2>over how much the lawyers who won that class action

0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:51.160
<v Speaker 2>lawsuit are going to get paid. And I just I

0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.240
<v Speaker 2>read this in Matt's newsletter. The plaintiff lawyers want to

0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:58.680
<v Speaker 2>be paid in stock. I believe six billion dollars in

0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.520
<v Speaker 2>Tesla stock. Matt, you wrote, the obvious thing to say

0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:03.720
<v Speaker 2>is this is absurd.

0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.400
<v Speaker 4>It's a lot of money for taking away his pay package.

0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:11.600
<v Speaker 4>Like what I said was that you know, Tesla's shareholders

0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.280
<v Speaker 4>did vote to give Elan Musk fifty six billion dollars

0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.400
<v Speaker 4>of Tesla's stock if he could raise Tesla's market cap

0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:20.920
<v Speaker 4>by like one thousand percent, And then he did do

0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.200
<v Speaker 4>that thing, and they wanted to give him the stock,

0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.160
<v Speaker 4>and these lawyers went to court and clouded it back

0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:27.680
<v Speaker 4>from him. And now the lawyers are like, we want

0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:29.520
<v Speaker 4>ten percent of that amount of money. Now, have they

0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:32.000
<v Speaker 4>raised Tesla's market cap by six hundred million dollars, No,

0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 4>they have not, or even by sixty billion dollars. So

0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.800
<v Speaker 4>it is a strange. It's a very large ask.

0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.080
<v Speaker 5>It's like the largest like lawyer fee that anyone has

0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.440
<v Speaker 5>ever asked for. I mean, what other in what other

0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.600
<v Speaker 5>scenario has any has any plaintiff lawyer asked for six

0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:47.960
<v Speaker 5>billion dollars worth of stock?

0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Like never like it?

0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:51.200
<v Speaker 4>Well, I mean their argument is they got fifty six

0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.160
<v Speaker 4>billion dollars of value for the shareholders.

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.560
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, but Anne Lipton was telling me, telling us that

0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.600
<v Speaker 5>this is like the largest fee request she's ever heard of,

0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 5>and yeah, it's absurd, but it's also cheaper than like

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.480
<v Speaker 5>most lawyers feed. Right, Like usually if you win, you

0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.240
<v Speaker 5>get like thirty percent of like the final judgment, and

0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.200
<v Speaker 5>this would be like eleven percent. So like it's like

0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:14.120
<v Speaker 5>absurdly large and yet less than what most lawyers get.

0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.640
<v Speaker 5>And the plaintiffs lawyers are arguing that, like they don't

0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:19.720
<v Speaker 5>want to cripple Tesla, they don't want Tesla to have

0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:21.960
<v Speaker 5>to give them six billion in cash, so they just

0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.080
<v Speaker 5>really like to have six billion worth of stock, which

0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:27.720
<v Speaker 5>everyone is like outraged about it. I mean, Elon is

0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:29.880
<v Speaker 5>like this is criminal, and all the fans and a

0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.320
<v Speaker 5>lot of TESL executives are like on x al weekend,

0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:34.680
<v Speaker 5>just talking about how ridiculous it is.

0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Is there any precedent? Like do people ever like sue

0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.320
<v Speaker 2>Kroger for slipping and falling and then get Kroger shares?

0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.560
<v Speaker 2>Like does this ever happen where you get shares in

0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:43.960
<v Speaker 2>the company you sue?

0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:49.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Like especially those bankruptcies, tobacco bankruptcies. Like the answer is,

0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.160
<v Speaker 4>if you like take all of a company's money, then

0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.480
<v Speaker 4>you get shares. Because they don't have any money. That's

0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.720
<v Speaker 4>not the case here, but like, but yes, Like they

0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:59.920
<v Speaker 4>don't want to cause financial distress by taking six billion

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.960
<v Speaker 4>dollars in cash from Tesla, and so the only way

0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.040
<v Speaker 4>for them to ask for an absolutely absurd size of

0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.399
<v Speaker 4>award is by asking for it in stock rather than cash.

0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:10.200
<v Speaker 4>Like that's what's happening here. They don't want to stock.

0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.399
<v Speaker 4>They just they can't with a straight face ask for

0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:14.359
<v Speaker 4>six billion dollars of cash, so they're asking for stock.

0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.080
<v Speaker 2>It really plays into kind of Elon Musk's narrative about

0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:20.000
<v Speaker 2>this case, right, because he has said all along, this

0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.159
<v Speaker 2>is just the lawyers. You know, this pay package actually

0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.360
<v Speaker 2>made Tesla stronger, and now Dana you have the lawyers

0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.399
<v Speaker 2>essentially like playing right, into his hand at least his

0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:33.159
<v Speaker 2>sort of social media his like social media pattern.

0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:35.959
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, and I mean and Elon does have a point,

0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:38.200
<v Speaker 5>Like the plaineiff here is like a pocket plane iff.

0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.200
<v Speaker 5>I mean it really is the law firm that took

0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.880
<v Speaker 5>this on and you know, like had a rare win.

0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:46.440
<v Speaker 5>I mean, Elon almost never loses in any kind of court.

0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.119
<v Speaker 5>And you know, not only is he pissed about it,

0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:50.840
<v Speaker 5>but it'll be interesting to see what happens, Like the

0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:52.600
<v Speaker 5>judge is going to have to have a hearing on

0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:54.960
<v Speaker 5>this fee request and there's going to be scores of

0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:58.119
<v Speaker 5>objections and is she gonna knock down the fee or

0:17:58.160 --> 0:17:59.720
<v Speaker 5>go along with it. I mean it's hard for me

0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.959
<v Speaker 5>to imagine her going along with a fee of this size.

0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.719
<v Speaker 5>But I mean it was this rare you know, like

0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:10.680
<v Speaker 5>his pay package was this like moonshot, unheralded, unprecedented pay package.

0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.720
<v Speaker 5>Now we have the same kind of moonshot unprecedented fever requests.

0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:16.119
<v Speaker 5>I don't know, Matt, do you what do you think? Oh?

0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.199
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean you're completely right, Like this is this

0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:21.440
<v Speaker 4>is an entrepreneurial law firm that is in the business

0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:26.000
<v Speaker 4>of finding problems with companies and seeing if it can

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.879
<v Speaker 4>you know, spin up some cash for itself by identifying

0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.919
<v Speaker 4>those problems. And if you were in a case like

0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:33.760
<v Speaker 4>this that they put a lot of time and effort

0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:35.800
<v Speaker 4>into and took a lot of risk because it's you know,

0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:37.760
<v Speaker 4>it's a long shot case. If you win a case

0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.400
<v Speaker 4>like this, you do owe it to yourself to ask

0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.560
<v Speaker 4>for six billion dollars. Right, you may not get the

0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:44.880
<v Speaker 4>six billion dollars, but like you'd feel like a fool

0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.480
<v Speaker 4>if you didn't ask, because like, right, it's modest. That's

0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:49.280
<v Speaker 4>like only ten percent of the amount that recovered, and

0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:51.600
<v Speaker 4>they did such a great job for shoulders, it'd be

0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.520
<v Speaker 4>crazy not to ask for it. I assume they expect

0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.240
<v Speaker 4>it to be cut back to some somewhat more reasonable number.

0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:58.840
<v Speaker 4>But if you start high, you get cut back to

0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:00.680
<v Speaker 4>a still very large number.

0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:04.719
<v Speaker 2>So like, like it'll still be enormous, but not six billion.

0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.320
<v Speaker 4>It'll buy all of them a lot of yachts. Yeah,

0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.280
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's like this, This is not like an

0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.919
<v Speaker 4>industrial company that nude to invest you know, like this

0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:14.840
<v Speaker 4>is like you know a dozen lawyers or whatever. Right,

0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.119
<v Speaker 4>Like they'll they'll they'll have a nice you know Christmas

0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:18.560
<v Speaker 4>this year.

0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:21.520
<v Speaker 2>So there have two questions for both of you. One is,

0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.600
<v Speaker 2>has Elon appealed? I know we've been expecting him to appeal,

0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.800
<v Speaker 2>and then how do they actually get the money back?

0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:29.560
<v Speaker 2>What does that look like? Are these options? Has he

0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:33.000
<v Speaker 2>exercised these options? Does he write a fifty five billion

0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.760
<v Speaker 2>dollar check? Or like what does the actual payback look like?

0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:39.040
<v Speaker 5>So there's sort of like a sequence of things that

0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:41.119
<v Speaker 5>have to happen. First, there needs to be a hearing

0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.520
<v Speaker 5>on the sphe request, and then the judge has to

0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.280
<v Speaker 5>enter like her final judgment, and then that starts the

0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:49.600
<v Speaker 5>thirty day clock by which Elon has to appeal. So

0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.560
<v Speaker 5>he hasn't appealed yet because the clock hasn't started yet,

0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:54.760
<v Speaker 5>because the judge hasn't entered her final ruling yet, because

0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:56.240
<v Speaker 5>there hasn't been the hearing on the fee yet. So

0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.159
<v Speaker 5>like we all expect him to appeal, but it's not

0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:01.359
<v Speaker 5>going to happen till they or the spring, and then

0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.679
<v Speaker 5>the shares get returned to Tesla, like it's a derivative lawsuit.

0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:09.119
<v Speaker 5>So the sort of argument is that, you know, Elon

0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:11.399
<v Speaker 5>doesn't have to cut a check, but like all the

0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.000
<v Speaker 5>other shareholders who were deluded by the fact that he

0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.080
<v Speaker 5>got this pay package will now not be deluded because

0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.360
<v Speaker 5>all the shares go back to like the pool, and

0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:24.080
<v Speaker 5>which is why Elon is surprise surprised, like basically letting

0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:25.520
<v Speaker 5>it be known that he wants a new pay.

0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:29.040
<v Speaker 2>Package, but that's a separate paypack. I mean, his idea

0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.040
<v Speaker 2>right is to have to get the keep the fifty

0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:33.679
<v Speaker 2>five billion he was already paid and they get a

0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.960
<v Speaker 2>new fifty five billion or something like that.

0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.439
<v Speaker 5>Regardless of whether he wins or loses on appeal, he

0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.000
<v Speaker 5>still wants another pay package so that he can keep

0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.040
<v Speaker 5>doing AI and robotics. But I mean, it's hard to

0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:47.439
<v Speaker 5>imagine him winning on appeal. I mean, I don't know.

0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 5>Jeff Feely, our colleague in Delaware, Chance Recurt, doesn't think

0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:54.560
<v Speaker 5>that Elon is likely to win on appeal, just because

0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.640
<v Speaker 5>the judge's ruling was like this two hundred page opinion

0:20:57.720 --> 0:20:59.639
<v Speaker 5>that was very carefully written.

0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.520
<v Speaker 4>You could have objections to this ruling, and I think

0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.480
<v Speaker 4>it's possible to imagine a courd reversing it on appeal.

0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:08.040
<v Speaker 4>I probably agree that it's less likely than not. By

0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:09.959
<v Speaker 4>the way, the other thing, like it's not at all

0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.680
<v Speaker 4>or nothing, like he wins on appeal or he gets

0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:14.560
<v Speaker 4>the fifty five billion taken away. First of all, the

0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:17.280
<v Speaker 4>fifty five billion number is fake, Like that's it's stock options.

0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:19.520
<v Speaker 4>He has no stock. The options are not worth fifty

0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:21.680
<v Speaker 4>five billion number. That was like a number in the disclosure.

0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:23.320
<v Speaker 4>They're worth a little bit less than that now, but

0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:25.159
<v Speaker 4>like they've been worth more or less than that as

0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.240
<v Speaker 4>the stock price moves. But also, like the fix here

0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.760
<v Speaker 4>is not necessarily like when on appeal, it's have Tesla

0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.520
<v Speaker 4>give him that pay package again and then maybe also

0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:38.679
<v Speaker 4>another pay package. Right, Like what this ruling says is

0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.240
<v Speaker 4>that the pay package they gave him in twenty eighteen

0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:44.640
<v Speaker 4>was invalid. But it's still a company with the board

0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:46.840
<v Speaker 4>of directors that can make decisions, and if they made

0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:51.080
<v Speaker 4>a decision, like we think he deserved half of that

0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.720
<v Speaker 4>pay package, Like we take the judge's point that he

0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:57.119
<v Speaker 4>couldn't deserve fifty five billion, but he deserves thirty billion.

0:21:57.560 --> 0:21:59.359
<v Speaker 4>And we're going to submit it to a vote to

0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.160
<v Speaker 4>the shareholders. We're going to fix what happened last time

0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.480
<v Speaker 4>where the judge found that the shareholder vote was not

0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.119
<v Speaker 4>fully informed. So we're going to give the sharelders more

0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:10.280
<v Speaker 4>information about the decision making and We're going to ask

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:12.720
<v Speaker 4>the sharelders to vote again to give him thirty billion

0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:17.080
<v Speaker 4>dollars of options based on his twenty eighteen performance. Like

0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:19.680
<v Speaker 4>the scharelders vote yes, right, and then it's just the

0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:21.560
<v Speaker 4>question of, like, well that hold up in court, And like,

0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:23.760
<v Speaker 4>I think they can do things to fix the problem

0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:25.520
<v Speaker 4>and they make it more bulletproof in court next time.

0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:26.840
<v Speaker 4>So I don't think that this is like he gets

0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:28.560
<v Speaker 4>nothing or he gets fifty five million dollars. And I

0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:31.040
<v Speaker 4>think even if he loses on appeal, there are ways

0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.159
<v Speaker 4>for Tesla to continue pumping money to him.

0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:36.280
<v Speaker 5>If they moved to Texas, right, that could be that

0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:38.600
<v Speaker 5>could that's one avenue, Right if they move the incorporation

0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:40.280
<v Speaker 5>of the company to Texas, that's a.

0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:43.399
<v Speaker 4>Really complicated avenue where someone will sue to prevent them

0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:45.160
<v Speaker 4>from moving to Texas, and then we'll have a really

0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:47.439
<v Speaker 4>really fun court case. But I think even without I

0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:51.159
<v Speaker 4>think that, like I think the right move strategically and

0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:53.920
<v Speaker 4>legally is for them to pay him more in Delaware

0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:56.960
<v Speaker 4>even before trying to move to Texas. But like Elon

0:22:57.040 --> 0:22:58.080
<v Speaker 4>may not want to hear that advice.

0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:03.760
<v Speaker 2>It sort of feels like to me that these two

0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:06.400
<v Speaker 2>things are connected, these two topics we've been talking about,

0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:10.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, because Elon is threatening essentially to do his

0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:14.480
<v Speaker 2>AI stuff outside of Tesla unless he gets another big

0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:18.239
<v Speaker 2>pay package. At the same time, he's filing this you know,

0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:22.400
<v Speaker 2>mega lawsuit, super fun, chock full of details and sort

0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:25.679
<v Speaker 2>of hilarity about how instrumental he was in the creation

0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:28.200
<v Speaker 2>of open Ad, this super valuable startup. I mean, these

0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:30.400
<v Speaker 2>two things are related, right, Like this is part all

0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:33.440
<v Speaker 2>part of some kind of strategy to get the Tesla

0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:36.200
<v Speaker 2>board to pay him another fifty billion dollars.

0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:38.639
<v Speaker 4>I mean, he doesn't need that much strategy. Like he

0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:40.359
<v Speaker 4>could go to Tesla and be like, please pay me

0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:41.880
<v Speaker 4>one hundred million dollars and then it'd be like here

0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:44.679
<v Speaker 4>you go. Now there's like there's some legal strategy in

0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:47.400
<v Speaker 4>the background where like like, yes, he needs a credible

0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:48.879
<v Speaker 4>threat so that when they go back to court, he

0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:50.919
<v Speaker 4>can be like, see, I would have left if they

0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:51.879
<v Speaker 4>didn't pay me that money.

0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:55.399
<v Speaker 2>But do you think it strengthens his case, like like

0:23:55.600 --> 0:23:58.600
<v Speaker 2>on appeal or whatever, that he's an AI pioneer, that

0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.720
<v Speaker 2>he's clearly he's thought about leaving before, you know, like

0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:03.200
<v Speaker 2>that this is swirling around it.

0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:05.960
<v Speaker 4>A little bit. I think that, like when you read

0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:09.359
<v Speaker 4>the judge's decision in this case, she's like, you know,

0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:11.240
<v Speaker 4>they said they needed to pay him this much to

0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:13.240
<v Speaker 4>retain him, but in fact, he had said things like

0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:15.320
<v Speaker 4>I'm a Tesla lifeer, I'm never going anywhere. This is

0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:18.399
<v Speaker 4>my legacy, and so they didn't really need to pay

0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:20.040
<v Speaker 4>him this much to retain him. And that was all

0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:23.199
<v Speaker 4>stuff he said in twenty eighteen. Like now you know,

0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:27.240
<v Speaker 4>now he's like got seven other companies and he's you know,

0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:30.720
<v Speaker 4>publicly saying how Distractedy is and how how he's lost

0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:32.520
<v Speaker 4>interest in Tesla. Like they do need to pay him

0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:34.520
<v Speaker 4>more to retain him. So I think they will have

0:24:34.560 --> 0:24:36.760
<v Speaker 4>a you know, the next pay package they give him,

0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:39.280
<v Speaker 4>they will have a better case that they need to

0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:41.680
<v Speaker 4>do it to motivate him, which is like a double

0:24:41.760 --> 0:24:44.560
<v Speaker 4>edged sword. It's sort of like it sort of suggests

0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:47.639
<v Speaker 4>that he is not fulfilling his fiducial i duties to

0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:50.040
<v Speaker 4>Tesla shareholders in some way. But I think that like

0:24:50.080 --> 0:24:51.399
<v Speaker 4>probably does help him at the margin.

0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:53.760
<v Speaker 5>I also wonder if this is sort of an attempt

0:24:53.760 --> 0:24:56.679
<v Speaker 5>to just try to bring some real change to Tesla's board.

0:24:56.720 --> 0:24:59.400
<v Speaker 5>I mean, it seems like the board is really the problem, right,

0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:01.800
<v Speaker 5>Elon has stack the board with very close friends. They

0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:04.119
<v Speaker 5>vacation together. I mean, this all came out in testimony.

0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:06.760
<v Speaker 5>So I wonder if, like part of the judge's role

0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:10.240
<v Speaker 5>here is to try to push for real governance change.

0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:14.320
<v Speaker 5>But then that's hard to imagine too, because I just

0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:16.920
<v Speaker 5>I don't really see a lot of big outsiders coming

0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:19.800
<v Speaker 5>in and like starting like a board fight with Elon.

0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:22.640
<v Speaker 5>I mean, it's Elon's board, it always it always has been.

0:25:22.880 --> 0:25:25.320
<v Speaker 5>And you need a way to motivate Elon, Like how

0:25:25.359 --> 0:25:27.960
<v Speaker 5>do you motivate the richest person on the planet to

0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:30.719
<v Speaker 5>stick with the company when he has like a billion

0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:34.760
<v Speaker 5>startup ideas in his own head and is running He's

0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:38.080
<v Speaker 5>currently running six companies, and so Tesla has always struggled

0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:41.320
<v Speaker 5>with how to keep him engaged in Tesla because if

0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:44.440
<v Speaker 5>he walked completely, like the valuation of that company would

0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:46.680
<v Speaker 5>be very much in question. And so the board is

0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:49.520
<v Speaker 5>always wrangled with like, oh, how do we keep Elon engaged?

0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:52.240
<v Speaker 5>Like how do we keep him here when his first

0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:55.919
<v Speaker 5>love is clearly SpaceX And it's wild I mean because

0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:59.399
<v Speaker 5>he is a part time CEO. I mean there's no

0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:03.200
<v Speaker 5>other who just works part time like this, It's pretty

0:26:03.440 --> 0:26:08.480
<v Speaker 5>it's pretty amazing how like little time Mealon spends at Tesla.

0:26:08.560 --> 0:26:11.040
<v Speaker 5>I mean granted, like you know, he would argue that

0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:13.200
<v Speaker 5>he sleeps there when he needs to and he's working

0:26:13.240 --> 0:26:16.080
<v Speaker 5>around the clock, but I mean the man hyper focuses,

0:26:16.080 --> 0:26:17.879
<v Speaker 5>but then he is like a wall and doing his

0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:18.520
<v Speaker 5>other things.

0:26:22.840 --> 0:26:26.240
<v Speaker 2>We're going to go to our ending segment called is

0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:29.240
<v Speaker 2>this a thing? And in which you too have to

0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:32.159
<v Speaker 2>tell me is this a thing? And the topic of

0:26:32.200 --> 0:26:37.080
<v Speaker 2>this as a tweet from Elon Musk on February twenty eighth. Tonight,

0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:40.240
<v Speaker 2>we radically increase the design goals for the new Tesla Roaster.

0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:42.560
<v Speaker 2>There will never be another car like this, if you

0:26:42.600 --> 0:26:46.200
<v Speaker 2>could even call it a car. Tesla slash SpaceX collab

0:26:46.440 --> 0:26:49.160
<v Speaker 2>production design complete and unveil at the end of the year,

0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:53.400
<v Speaker 2>aiming to ship next year. Dana, is this real? Yes?

0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:55.240
<v Speaker 5>I think it's real. Like, are they gonna stick to

0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:55.919
<v Speaker 5>the timeline?

0:26:56.119 --> 0:26:56.320
<v Speaker 4>No?

0:26:56.520 --> 0:26:59.199
<v Speaker 5>But the backdrop of this is that, like byd is

0:26:59.240 --> 0:27:02.360
<v Speaker 5>now Tesla's biggest competitor. They're the Chinese company that makes

0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:05.160
<v Speaker 5>a lot of cars. They're like the leader in ev sales,

0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:07.280
<v Speaker 5>and they also have some kind of like new supercar,

0:27:08.200 --> 0:27:11.119
<v Speaker 5>like remind everyone. Like Tesla first said that they were

0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:14.720
<v Speaker 5>working on a next generation roadster in twenty seventeen.

0:27:14.640 --> 0:27:18.159
<v Speaker 6>Tesla with a sports called Tesla Royster. It was the

0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:20.400
<v Speaker 6>foundation of the whole company, was the Tesla Royster. People

0:27:20.400 --> 0:27:22.000
<v Speaker 6>who asked us for a long time, when are you

0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:25.120
<v Speaker 6>going to make a new roadster. We are making it now.

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:28.119
<v Speaker 5>I was there at that event that was back in

0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:31.440
<v Speaker 5>the day when like Tesla invited you know, mainstream financial

0:27:31.480 --> 0:27:34.440
<v Speaker 5>journalists to their product launches, and it was this awesome event.

0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:36.919
<v Speaker 5>I mean, Tesla pulled out all the stops. It was

0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:39.639
<v Speaker 5>in La Fronds von Wholshausen, the lead designer for Tesla,

0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:42.120
<v Speaker 5>was actually like in the roadster as it came back

0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:44.480
<v Speaker 5>out of the back of the semi. But what's weird

0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:47.040
<v Speaker 5>to me is that like Tesla needs to go down

0:27:47.040 --> 0:27:50.160
<v Speaker 5>market and make this next generation cheaper, twenty five thousand

0:27:50.200 --> 0:27:52.960
<v Speaker 5>dollars car in order to remain competitive. So I'm not

0:27:53.040 --> 0:27:55.600
<v Speaker 5>really sure why they're like now talking about this high

0:27:55.720 --> 0:27:58.240
<v Speaker 5>end niche product when like the future of the company

0:27:58.320 --> 0:28:01.280
<v Speaker 5>is really about the downmark it cheaper product. But I

0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:03.560
<v Speaker 5>think he's just trying to remind everyone. Oh yeah, that

0:28:03.680 --> 0:28:06.440
<v Speaker 5>this like product that we promised years ago is still happening.

0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:08.719
<v Speaker 5>And I'm sure that when he tweeted that that that

0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:11.399
<v Speaker 5>was it. That was news to probably all the engineers, like,

0:28:11.480 --> 0:28:14.240
<v Speaker 5>oh now this is backfront center again, Matt.

0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:16.480
<v Speaker 2>What's your what's your take on this? Is this? Are

0:28:16.560 --> 0:28:19.240
<v Speaker 2>you going to put down your deposit for the new

0:28:19.400 --> 0:28:20.480
<v Speaker 2>new Tesla roaster?

0:28:20.840 --> 0:28:22.879
<v Speaker 4>I'm the wrong person to ask that. I will say that,

0:28:22.920 --> 0:28:26.000
<v Speaker 4>like after he tweeted about radically increasing the design goals,

0:28:26.000 --> 0:28:28.159
<v Speaker 4>which I don't know that that means. It's a funny phrase.

0:28:28.520 --> 0:28:31.639
<v Speaker 4>He also did a callback to his twenty eighteen tweeter

0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:35.160
<v Speaker 4>he said SpaceX option package for new Tesla Roadster will

0:28:35.200 --> 0:28:39.160
<v Speaker 4>include ten small rocket thrusters arranged seamlessly around car. Maybe

0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:42.200
<v Speaker 4>they will even allow a Tesla to fly. So you know,

0:28:42.680 --> 0:28:44.720
<v Speaker 4>it's always like a little bit of not a thing,

0:28:44.800 --> 0:28:46.600
<v Speaker 4>But you know, I believe that on that like there

0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:48.600
<v Speaker 4>will you know, there'll be a roadster and stuff like that.

0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:51.440
<v Speaker 2>So do you think it's like eleven rocket boosters with

0:28:51.520 --> 0:28:54.520
<v Speaker 2>the radical radically increase the design goals? Maybe that's what

0:28:54.520 --> 0:28:55.720
<v Speaker 2>he means he.

0:28:55.640 --> 0:29:01.920
<v Speaker 4>Did retweet or re crock whatever he did call that back.

0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:04.000
<v Speaker 4>Sarah he wants.

0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:06.800
<v Speaker 5>He also had some joke about like, oh, like we

0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:09.120
<v Speaker 5>were promised flying cars and all we got was two

0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:12.120
<v Speaker 5>hundred needy characters, and now he's basically kind of promising

0:29:12.160 --> 0:29:14.040
<v Speaker 5>wing wink that there will be flying cars.

0:29:14.600 --> 0:29:17.040
<v Speaker 2>All right. On that note, let's end here. Thank you

0:29:17.080 --> 0:29:20.160
<v Speaker 2>for listening to Elon, Inc. And thanks to Dana and Matt,

0:29:20.840 --> 0:29:25.360
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, thank you, thanks guys. Before we go, a

0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:28.680
<v Speaker 2>programming note, Elon Inc. Is going to south By Southwest

0:29:28.880 --> 0:29:31.520
<v Speaker 2>next week in Austin, Texas. We're going to be doing

0:29:31.560 --> 0:29:34.920
<v Speaker 2>a live taping on Tuesday, March twelfth at ten am.

0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:37.560
<v Speaker 2>If you're in Austin at south By Southwest, please come

0:29:37.680 --> 0:29:39.840
<v Speaker 2>say hi to us. We'll be talking to suel Chan,

0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:43.680
<v Speaker 2>the editor in chief of the Texas Tribune, and Rachel Monroe,

0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:46.880
<v Speaker 2>the New Yorker's Texas correspondent. We're going to be talking

0:29:46.880 --> 0:29:50.400
<v Speaker 2>about how much or how little Elon has impacted his

0:29:50.440 --> 0:29:53.080
<v Speaker 2>home state, and perhaps how much his home state has

0:29:53.120 --> 0:30:03.800
<v Speaker 2>impacted Elon. This episode was produced by Stacy Wong. Naomi

0:30:03.800 --> 0:30:07.239
<v Speaker 2>Shavin and Rayhan Harmanci are senior editors. The idea for

0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:11.000
<v Speaker 2>this very show came from Rayhan Blake Maples Handles Engineering

0:30:11.040 --> 0:30:14.360
<v Speaker 2>and we get special editing assistants from Jeff Grocott. Her

0:30:14.360 --> 0:30:18.280
<v Speaker 2>supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson. Huge thanks to Joel Weber,

0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:22.160
<v Speaker 2>Sean Wen and Angel Recchio. The Elon Inc. Theme is

0:30:22.200 --> 0:30:27.040
<v Speaker 2>written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Suguiera. Sage

0:30:27.040 --> 0:30:30.520
<v Speaker 2>Bauman is a head of Bloomberg Podcast and Brendan Newnham

0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:33.560
<v Speaker 2>is our executive producer. I'm Max Chapkin. If you have

0:30:33.600 --> 0:30:36.200
<v Speaker 2>a minute, rate and review our show, it'll help others

0:30:36.400 --> 0:30:43.640
<v Speaker 2>find us and we will appreciate it. See you next week.