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Speaker 1: Hi everyone.

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Speaker 2: Before we start, just a note that we discuss sexual

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Speaker 2: assault and violence in this episode.

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Speaker 1: I Laura wear a Baldwin. Hi, Lucas, Lorenzo Spencer take

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Speaker 1: thee to be my wedded wife, to be my lawful

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Speaker 1: wedded husband. Hoop better poor worse so Richard for poor.

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Speaker 2: The voices you're hearing are Luke and Laura, two beloved

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Speaker 2: characters from one of the most popular soap operas of

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Speaker 2: all time, General Hospital.

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Speaker 1: This is their wedding, which took place in nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 1: Hunt Be I Pledge my trust.

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Speaker 2: It may have been fictional, but this wedding, a two

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Speaker 2: day television event, was celebrated by fans as the wedding

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Speaker 2: of the decade. More people watched it than the real

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Speaker 2: wedding of Prince Charles and Princess Diana, which happened that

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Speaker 2: same year. But what is often forgotten about this iconic

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Speaker 2: soap opera couple is that just a few years before this,

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Speaker 2: Luke sexually assaulted Laura. I'm Susie Bannaker.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Jessica Bennett.

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Speaker 2: This is in retrospect, where each week we revisit a

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Speaker 2: cultural moment from the past that shaped.

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Speaker 3: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about.

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Speaker 2: Today, we're talking about how one of TV's most famous

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Speaker 2: and beloved relationships started with a rape, but we're also

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Speaker 2: talking about the incredible power soap operas once had and

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Speaker 2: shaping public perception for better and for worse.

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Speaker 4: So, Susie, I know nothing about soap operas except that

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Speaker 4: there is one starring a woman named Jessica Bennett who

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Speaker 4: shares money.

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Speaker 1: Is that true?

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Speaker 3: It's called Passion Passions.

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Speaker 1: That was a short lived but very wild soap opera.

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Speaker 3: She remains on Wikipedia. Anyway, were you a huge General

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Speaker 3: hospital fan? Like what led you to this moment?

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Speaker 1: So?

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Speaker 2: I wasn't a General hospital fan specifically, I did occasionally

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Speaker 2: watch it, but I was a huge soap opera fan.

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Speaker 2: I would come home in middle school and watch soap

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Speaker 2: operas every afternoon.

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Speaker 1: I was a Days of Our Life girl.

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Speaker 2: One Life to Live girl, which was kind of unusual

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Speaker 2: because it was split.

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Speaker 1: Days of Our Lives was on RBC.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember the tagline for Days of Our Lives

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Speaker 2: like sand to the hour live zero?

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Speaker 1: So are the Days of our Lives?

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Speaker 4: Of our lives?

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Speaker 2: I would come home from school and I would watch

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Speaker 2: with the snack every afternoon and then eventually I went

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Speaker 2: to boarding school for high school, but when I came home,

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Speaker 2: it was like something I looked forward to, like a

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Speaker 2: summer or winter break indulgence.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's kind of why I.

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Speaker 2: Wanted to focus on this subject, this relationship, because soap

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Speaker 2: operas were just so influential for generations of American girls

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Speaker 2: and women. I mean, also some boys obviously, but they

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Speaker 2: really were geared towards women, and this particular plotline really

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Speaker 2: came at the peak of their popularity, and so it

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Speaker 2: seems worth exploring this really relationship that was seen as

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Speaker 2: so romantic but started with an assault.

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Speaker 4: As you say that, I'm remembering that I mentioned this

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Speaker 4: to my mother in law recently, and she revealed that

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Speaker 4: actually my husband, like the first three years of his life,

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Speaker 4: she would constantly have this show on in the background

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Speaker 4: while they were just I don't know, hanging out doing

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Speaker 4: baby stuff or whatever.

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Speaker 3: And you know, guess what.

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Speaker 4: She remembers this relationship between Luke and Laura as completely romantic.

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Speaker 1: I think that's what most people thought.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and they'd go on to have this decades long relationship,

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Speaker 4: So that makes a lot of sense. I mean, Laura

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Speaker 4: is still actually a character on the show. But for

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Speaker 4: those who didn't grow up on General Hospital, can you

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Speaker 4: give us a little primer on what the show was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a soap robera that started in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty three and had its heyday in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: It was just hugely popular.

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Speaker 2: It was about two families living in the fictional town

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Speaker 2: of Port Charles, New York, and there are various trials

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Speaker 2: and tribulations, and not surprisingly, it was centered in a hospital.

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Speaker 2: You might say it was the original Gray's Anatomy and

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Speaker 2: what went on there. Sometimes it would go off in

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Speaker 2: weird adventures, but that's really been the core of the

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Speaker 2: show for the last sixty years.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So, Luke and Lear are characters who do not

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Speaker 4: work in that hospital.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't work in the hospital.

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Speaker 2: Not literally, everyone on the show works in the hospital,

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Speaker 2: got it.

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Speaker 1: They just live in Port Charles.

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Speaker 4: Okay, And where should we begin in terms of their

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Speaker 4: Can we call it a relationship?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's not a relationship in the beginning,

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Speaker 2: right because of the way it starts. But I actually

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Speaker 2: want to begin with the wedding because I think that

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Speaker 2: that's the moment that becomes such a cultural phenomenon. Right,

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Speaker 2: It was a two day event, so it's two hours long.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow.

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Speaker 2: There's like really long stretches of them just like driving

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Speaker 2: up in cars, like the bridesmaids, the groomsmen, and then

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Speaker 2: there's this really long stretch of them just like literally

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Speaker 2: greeting the guests.

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Speaker 1: It's like an actual wedding, which is why.

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Speaker 2: It's fascinating that it was the most watched soap opera

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Speaker 2: episode of all time. When people loved it, they wanted

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Speaker 2: to feel like they were there at this wedding because

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Speaker 2: they were obsessed with this couple.

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Speaker 3: Wow, why were people so obsessed with this couple? Like

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Speaker 3: what was the appeal?

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Speaker 2: So, I mean it's hard to say. To some degree,

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Speaker 2: you don't ever know why people become really attached to

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Speaker 2: certain characters on television or certain storylines. But Lauria is

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Speaker 2: actually kind of an interesting character because she's already become

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Speaker 2: a pretty central character to General Hospital when Luke is introduced, okay,

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Speaker 2: and that's because they're trying to push towards younger audiences.

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Speaker 2: So she's a teenager, and I think one of the

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Speaker 2: quotes I read from a fan was like, we love

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Speaker 2: her because she's sixteen like us, but she lives the

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Speaker 2: life of a twenty eight year old. Okay, that's partially

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Speaker 2: why I wanted to start with the wedding, because you

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Speaker 2: kind of need to understand that this wasn't just like

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Speaker 2: a popular episode of television.

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Speaker 1: It was literally the closest thing American tat to her

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Speaker 1: royal wedding.

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Speaker 2: And just to prove that I'm not exaggerating, more people

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Speaker 2: tuned in to watch this fake wedding than tuned in

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Speaker 2: when Megan Markle and Prince Harry had their actual wedding

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Speaker 2: in twenty eighty wild yeah, and like local news sent

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Speaker 2: correspondence to viewing parties like all across Manhattan, from an

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Speaker 2: office in Madison Avenue to a dorm at NYU, fans all.

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Speaker 3: Across the country watched for the big moment.

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Speaker 1: To them, it was their wedding. Of course, we're excited

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Speaker 1: about a dry eye on the house. Doesn't they get

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Speaker 1: married with them?

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Speaker 3: I love what thing.

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Speaker 1: We're confident they get to Gema just between you know,

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Speaker 1: they're very much in love and it's a really beautiful thing.

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Speaker 2: It was just this wildly popular thing, even among celebrities

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Speaker 2: like Elizabeth Taylor was such a fan of the show

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Speaker 2: that she requested to be on it and made a

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Speaker 2: guest appearance, and you can kind of see her in

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Speaker 2: the background of these shots. She's playing a villain who

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Speaker 2: is cursing them on their wedding day. And also this

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Speaker 2: is the year where Diana and Charles get married, okay,

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Speaker 2: and they have a real wedding, right, but then this

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Speaker 2: is such a big and that Diana sends champagne for

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Speaker 2: this fake way. She sends the actors champagne to congratulate

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Speaker 2: them on their fake oh wow, oh my god, which

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Speaker 2: like an amazing little detail here is that Genie Francis

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Speaker 2: is underage when this wedding.

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Speaker 3: Jennie Francis who plays Laurae.

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Speaker 2: Francis, who plays Laura Spencer, is twenty and so they

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Speaker 2: don't give it her champagne.

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Speaker 1: So they don't even give it, or she doesn't know

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Speaker 1: about the champagne until years later when they're doing an

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Speaker 1: in thin. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what kind of champagne it was, but

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Speaker 2: I think Luke said he like kept the box. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's imagine getting a bottle of champagne from what was

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Speaker 2: like the most famous woman in the.

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Speaker 1: World at that time.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so the culture of the world is kind of

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Speaker 4: treating this fake wedding like a real wedding.

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Speaker 2: People took the day off work, and there's like a

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Speaker 2: note in the research that someone was like, Hey, I

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Speaker 2: told my boss I was going to a wedding because

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Speaker 2: I was you know, like bars played it like people

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Speaker 2: gathered around in bars at lunchtime end quotes to watch

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Speaker 2: this wedding. And I mean a thing that I think

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Speaker 2: people sort of forget. It's hard now to remember what

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Speaker 2: a stranglehold soap operas had on the culture in the eighties.

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Speaker 3: Or even television.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, on television, I mean they also made the most money.

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Speaker 2: Like I think part of the thing is, yes, a

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Speaker 2: lot of people watch them, but more than that for

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Speaker 2: the networks. At ABC, for example, they made up fifty

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Speaker 2: percent of revenue, so they had an enormous amount of power.

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Speaker 2: And that's why suddenly you see all these actors, these

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Speaker 2: famous actors who got their start on soap operas. It's

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Speaker 2: because soap operas had money to pay actors, and primetime,

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Speaker 2: you know, it had money, but not the way soap

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Speaker 2: operas did, and that wasn't always the case, right, Soap

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Speaker 2: opera's initially were kind of seen as this thing for women,

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Speaker 2: made by women, this sort of.

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Speaker 1: Silly, ridiculous thing.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it could be silly and ridiculous, and

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Speaker 2: we can talk about that, but daytime was an enormously

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Speaker 2: powerful arena at this point.

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Speaker 4: I don't think I fully appreciated that that soap operas

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Speaker 4: had huge power to shape culture, and also that it

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Speaker 4: was women both making and watching them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, initially, soap operas were really watched by stay at

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Speaker 2: home moms, and that's kind of why initially they're dismissed.

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Speaker 2: But then this thing happens at the end of the

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Speaker 2: seventies where a lot of women enter the workforce and

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Speaker 2: there's a dip in viewership. Okay, but then the women

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Speaker 2: who are staying at home start to allow their children

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Speaker 2: to watch TV with them.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of like a shift.

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Speaker 2: And so a lot of girls and boys who are

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Speaker 2: home with their moms become addicted to these shows. And

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Speaker 2: then it becomes common to be a college student who

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Speaker 2: gathers around, right.

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Speaker 3: This is why there's viewing parties in these dorm roo.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know, a common thing that was talked about

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Speaker 2: among soap fans is that they would schedule their classes

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Speaker 2: around their sobb.

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Speaker 3: Wow, it's such a different time.

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Speaker 2: But it's like worth noting that even though soap operas

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Speaker 2: aren't that popular now, General Hospital is still on the air.

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Speaker 1: Oh right, I mean people forget that, but it.

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Speaker 2: Is the longest running scripted drama and the longest running

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Speaker 2: American soap opera. How do you started airing in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty three. You can watch it on television. What do

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Speaker 2: you mean you watch it on E you do? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you can watch it in the afternoon on ABC. And

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Speaker 2: by the way, two million people still do Okay, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think the thing that's different.

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Speaker 1: Is there's like a lot of options now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it doesn't seem as popular, but two million

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Speaker 2: people is not a paltry number.

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Speaker 1: That's way more than most cable shows get.

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Speaker 2: But we don't think about it as a cultural phenomenon

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Speaker 2: because it seems so low in comparison to the fact

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Speaker 2: that in their heyday, one in fifteen Americans watched General Hospital.

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Speaker 4: So we're talking about a storyline on General Hospital involving

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Speaker 4: the two most popular characters, Luke and Laura. These are

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Speaker 4: characters America obsessed over in the nineteen eighties. Thirty million

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Speaker 4: people tune in to watch their wedding. But when you

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Speaker 4: say out loud how that relationship began, which is with

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Speaker 4: Luke assaulting Laura, it almost feels like it can't be true.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is hard to believe.

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Speaker 2: And we're about to walk you through the assault scene,

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Speaker 2: which will make it feel unfortunately very real. But first

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Speaker 2: I want to give you some background on how we

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Speaker 2: get to that scene. And I'm going to actually blow

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Speaker 2: your mind with so many things here, because to begin with,

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Speaker 2: Luke is Laura's boss.

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Speaker 4: Oh okay, where do they work at a disco?

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Speaker 2: Laura is seventeen. Luckily for Laura, she's already married. She's

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Speaker 2: seventeen and married, Oh okay, a crime. So Laura and

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Speaker 2: Scotty were actually like a pretty popular soap opera couple

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Speaker 2: in their own right. But you know, the whole thing

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Speaker 2: on soap operas is if there's a happy couple, they

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Speaker 2: must face like an extraordinary number of obstacles, like they

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Speaker 2: must get.

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Speaker 1: Kidnapped, they must get cloned.

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Speaker 2: So the obstacle that's thrown in Laura's and Scotty's relationship

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Speaker 2: is Luke. There is a nurse at the hospital that's

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Speaker 2: upse Sess with Scottie, so she asks her brother Luke

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Speaker 2: to come to town and try and seduce Laura. Okay,

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Speaker 2: and Luke wasn't even really supposed to be a major

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Speaker 2: character on the show. He was just brought in as

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Speaker 2: a temporary character who was going to be a bad boy,

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Speaker 2: an obstacle in Laura's relationship with her husband Scottie. But

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Speaker 2: the writers had planned from the beginning that he was

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Speaker 2: going to rape her because they wanted that storyline for ratings.

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Speaker 2: Wild Wild, The ratings have started to wane. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're making an effort to bring in younger viewers. It's

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Speaker 2: working a little bit with Laura, but this is the

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Speaker 2: last rated TV show.

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Speaker 3: Oh so it's not doing good at this time.

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Speaker 2: At this time, I'm talking to me, and it's the

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Speaker 2: lowest rated soap opera on TV. It's like number twelve

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Speaker 2: or something. I mean, there's so many soap operas on

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Speaker 2: TV at this time. And that's actually what makes it

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Speaker 2: so remarkable that within three years it's literally the number

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Speaker 2: one show.

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Speaker 4: Can you imagine being like, our show is doing really bad.

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Speaker 4: What can we do to get better ratings? I know,

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Speaker 4: let's say to rape.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is wild, but it does work.

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Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that's interesting is

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Speaker 2: the executive producer that was brought in at that time

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Speaker 2: came from TV movies where rape was a much more

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Speaker 2: common topic, but it was presented more from like the

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Speaker 2: crime aspect. So I think that's not a lot starrying,

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Speaker 2: not a love story, and I think that's why she

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Speaker 2: has this idea to introduce this rape and knows that

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Speaker 2: that is like popular with viewers. That must be kind

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Speaker 2: of what she's thinking when she introduces this character.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so this new thirty two year old character, Luke,

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Speaker 4: ends up hiring seventeen year old Laura at his nightclib.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Laura has gone to Luke, who runs the

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Speaker 2: big disco in town, to ask for a job and

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Speaker 2: he hires her. And meanwhile, he has some shady backdoor

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Speaker 2: dealings with the mob. That's why he's like such a

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Speaker 2: bad boy, and that's his backstory. So the context of

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Speaker 2: this scene is that Luke has gotten mixed up with

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Speaker 2: these mobsters who are forcing him to kill a local

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Speaker 2: politician and he feels like if he kills this other person,

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Speaker 2: he will also be killed.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And so this scene picks.

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Speaker 2: Up where she has seen him crying because he is like,

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Speaker 2: I'm a dead man walking, Okay, we come you cry.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't crying.

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Speaker 1: You were, and you didn't know that I was here.

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Speaker 3: First.

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Speaker 4: I was like, Oh, that's kind of progressive of them,

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Speaker 4: Like he's shedding cheers.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's not gonna be so progressive, is it?

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Speaker 1: Can it worked out in time? Time is what I've known.

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Speaker 4: He's sort of setting it up that like, if you

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Speaker 4: don't have time, then you must have the woman you love.

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Speaker 2: And that's definitely how the story plays that he knows

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Speaker 2: he's running out of time. He's so in love with

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Speaker 2: her that he must have her this one time.

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Speaker 3: He might he has to act on this love lust.

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Speaker 3: I said I was going to be dead killed little lady.

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Speaker 1: Can't you get that through your head?

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Speaker 3: Now get out here?

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Speaker 2: So he's pushing her away because essentially the messages he

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Speaker 2: can't control himself, and then he professes his love.

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Speaker 1: Damn it, Laura, I'm with you. No, I.

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Speaker 3: I think it's really love, Luca.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, that's what it is.

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Speaker 2: And then randomly, in the middle of all of this,

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Speaker 2: Luke walks over dramatically to the record player flips it

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Speaker 2: on and a song comes on and he turns to

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Speaker 2: her and says, I can't die without holding you in

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Speaker 2: my arms, just one time.

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Speaker 4: No, you really feel that the tension is building, and

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Speaker 4: then things clearly unravel, Luke.

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Speaker 1: Let me call it tactic playing, and.

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Speaker 3: So you don't see the right itself, let me go.

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Speaker 1: But it's unambiguous.

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Speaker 4: It's definitely her raise are ripped, she's looking upset, she's crying.

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Speaker 3: She's clearly said no ahead of time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's screaming no when it starts and quotes.

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Speaker 2: It's a kind of jarring moment because it happens pretty suddenly,

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Speaker 2: like you go.

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Speaker 3: Goose bumps watching it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're sort of like, oh, it's gonna be

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Speaker 2: a seduction, and then suddenly it's a rape. And cut

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Speaker 2: to disco lights. There's a commercial break, we come back,

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Speaker 2: we're back on the disco lights. It's like very surreal

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Speaker 2: kind of vibe. And then the thing that really drives

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Speaker 2: home that this is a rape is she's now lying

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Speaker 2: on the ground, she is cowering, her closer torn and

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Speaker 2: her clothes are torn.

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Speaker 1: He is standing above her.

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Speaker 2: He seems like he's in a bit of a daze,

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Speaker 2: and the phone rings and you sort of get the

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Speaker 2: sense of that's supposed to like break his reverie. And

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Speaker 2: she sneaks away and it's her husband, and it's her

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Speaker 2: husband on the phone and he's like, have you seen Laura?

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Speaker 1: And Luke lies about it.

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Speaker 2: So that's kind of the acknowledgment that he knows he's

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Speaker 2: done something wrong because he's lying about whether or not

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Speaker 2: she's been there.

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Speaker 1: And that's the scene.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that was a lot.

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Speaker 4: But one other strange detail I have to mention is

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Speaker 4: so that song that's playing in the background when the

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Speaker 4: assault occurs, this is the song that Luke kind of

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Speaker 4: dramatically goes over to the record player and turns on,

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Speaker 4: and it's this jazz funk instrumental hit. This is a

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Speaker 4: real song. It's called Rise.

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Speaker 3: And that song then goes on to become number one

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Speaker 3: on the Billboard charts.

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Speaker 1: I know, it's crazy and like for.

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Speaker 4: A jazz funk instrumental that was as rare then as

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Speaker 4: it is today.

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Speaker 3: And it's funny. Actually, I don't know if you remember this.

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Speaker 4: You called me and I was in Palm Springs with

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Speaker 4: a friend and in a weed shop.

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Speaker 2: Naturally, that's where either of us would be at any given.

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Speaker 4: Moment, and we had just gotten out of the car

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Speaker 4: where that song was playing. And this friend of mine,

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Speaker 4: who happens to have written her college thesis on rape

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Speaker 4: and Soapapera's side now call her is like, oh, do

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Speaker 4: you know what this song is? And she explains this

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Speaker 4: to me and I'm like what. And then you called

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Speaker 4: me and you're like remember that moment in general Hospital,

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Speaker 4: which of course I didn't really remember. But this song

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Speaker 4: goes on to be at the top of all of

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Speaker 4: the charts, and actually our younger listeners might recognize it

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Speaker 4: because twenty years later, Puff Daddy actually puts a clip.

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Speaker 3: Of it into Biggie's song Hypnotized.

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Speaker 1: Oh excellent song, by the.

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Speaker 4: Way, which like, I can hear that in the back

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Speaker 4: of my mind as we're listening to this, so it's

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Speaker 4: sampled in Hypnotized in nineteen ninety seven, because Puffy later

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Speaker 4: says an interview like this was the song of the

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Speaker 4: summer when he was like ten years old in New York, Like.

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Speaker 3: All the kids were like jamming and.

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Speaker 4: Roller skating to this song, which of course was popular

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Speaker 4: because of this rape. Soon how do we get from

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Speaker 4: this clearly very traumatic scene between Luke and Laura, which

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Speaker 4: happens in nineteen seventy nine to then this star studded

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Speaker 4: royal level wedding two years later.

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Speaker 2: That's the crazy part, right. As I mentioned, Luke was

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Speaker 2: supposed to be a temporary character. He was supposed to

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Speaker 2: come on, you know, have this violen scene with and

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Speaker 2: then he was supposed to be killed. And what happens

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Speaker 2: is audiences respond so well to him.

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Speaker 1: And again let me acknowledge how wild that is.

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Speaker 2: He was so immediately popular that producers decided they wanted

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Speaker 2: to find a way to keep him on the show.

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Speaker 3: Wait, and how do they know he's so popular?

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Speaker 2: Well, partially because the way soaps worked is since they

402
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Speaker 2: were being produced so quickly and because they're on every day,

403
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Speaker 2: the network is able to gauge almost immediately audience sentiment.

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Speaker 2: So they're using actual data that's showing them that Luke.

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Speaker 1: Is quite popular. Okay, we got to keep Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: gets some coverage.

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Speaker 2: At the time, the ratings weren't good before this, the

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Speaker 2: ratings start to creep up, so.

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Speaker 1: They do not kill him off.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but that leaves them with the problem a little.

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Speaker 2: Bit of a conundrum, which is if audiences are falling

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Speaker 2: in love with Luke and really feel drawn to this

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Speaker 2: romance between him and Laura and want Laura to end

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Speaker 2: up with Luke, not Scottie. How do they reconcile that

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Speaker 2: with the violent rape that has occurred, and also that

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00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 2: they have acknowledged as such, And just to really put

417
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Speaker 2: a fine point on the fact that the show never

418
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:19,880
Speaker 2: really tried to make the rape ambiguous initially she goes

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Speaker 2: to crisis counseling after this. On the show, like they

420
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Speaker 2: do not initially shy away from the fact that it's

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Speaker 2: a rape. They will eventually and will get into all

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Speaker 2: of that, but when it happens, it is really clear

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Speaker 2: what's happened.

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Speaker 1: Tony Geary, the actor who.

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Speaker 2: Played Luke, actually says in an interview, at some point,

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Speaker 2: we never expected the audience to be like on Luke's side,

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Speaker 2: and so we did a rape and then the audience

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Speaker 2: fell in love with Luke and that wasn't our faults.

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Speaker 1: So what were we supposed to do?

430
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Speaker 2: And like, maybe the thing you were supposed to do

431
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Speaker 2: is be like, hey, guys, rape is bad, But instead

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Speaker 2: they are moving the needle over and over again until

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Speaker 2: they literally reshoot the scenes.

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Speaker 1: They literally go back.

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Speaker 3: They can appear in flashbacks so that.

436
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,919
Speaker 2: The scenes they're showing for flashbacks aren't as disturbing.

437
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Speaker 1: Oh wow.

438
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Speaker 2: They're literally softening the thing over and over and over again,

439
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 2: and the character is being gaslet in real time. The

440
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 2: audience is being gas lit in real time.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you should name me as the rapist. You in jail, well,

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00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 1: maybe that's where I belong.

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Speaker 3: No, don't say that you're not a criminal.

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Speaker 1: Then by the time the wedding happens.

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Speaker 2: The thing that's kind of interesting is that by the

446
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 2: time thirty million people are watching the wedding, a lot

447
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 2: of those people have never seen it an rape. They

448
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 2: don't even be right, and they have only seen these sanitized, softened,

449
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 2: more romantic flashbacks.

450
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: And actually they even remove the song. They stop playing

451
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 1: the song because the song is like so associated with

452
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 1: the rape.

453
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 3: Oh wow, so interesting.

454
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,199
Speaker 2: And when they're reshooting these scenes and softening them up,

455
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 2: there's a thing that happens that's actually quite controversial for

456
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 2: the people at the time who remember that it's a rape.

457
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 1: I mean, there is an audience that remembers.

458
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: And at one point Laura is narrating the scene and

459
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 2: she describes it as the first time Luke and.

460
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 1: I made love. Oh wow, and there is a reaction.

461
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 2: It's not like a huge national reaction or anything, but

462
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 2: there are people at that time who are like, what

463
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 2: is happening?

464
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 4: And actually we know one of those people one of

465
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 4: our executive producers, Cindy Levy.

466
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

467
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 2: Cindy is a journalist, the former editor of Glamour magazine,

468
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 2: and the co founder of The Meteor, But most relevant

469
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 2: to this conversation, she was a General Hospital super fan.

470
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 5: I started watching it probably in nineteen seventy nine and

471
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 5: watched it with varying levels of religious devotion until around

472
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty four or eighty five. I was part of

473
00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,400
Speaker 5: that generation X, so called latchkey kid generation, and so

474
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 5: I used to come home and General Hospital was kind

475
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 5: of my babysitter, Like my parents were divorced and my

476
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 5: mom worked, and I would race home from school so

477
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 5: that I could turn on.

478
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 1: ABC channel seven and.

479
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 5: Watch it at three o'clock, usually with a humongous.

480
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: Bowl of coffee ice cream. It was like a comfort

481
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: hour for me. Why did you love it so much?

482
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 5: It was just fascinating. I just had never seen anything

483
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 5: like it before. I remember these super adult plots, prostitution,

484
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 5: There was Bobby Spencer who used to be a quote

485
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 5: unquote hooker, and there were a lot of plots around infidelity,

486
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 5: and then there was Luke and Laura. Laura was supposed

487
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 5: to be sort of in her late teens, even though

488
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 5: she seemed incredibly glamorous and grown up to me at

489
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 5: the time.

490
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 1: Do you remember what you initially thought when Luke showed up.

491
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 5: I have a vague memory that Luke Spencer was supposed

492
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 5: to be a kind of bad boy character, a disco mostly.

493
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 5: I remember his kind of open neck shirts and his

494
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 5: permed hair, although I didn't know it was permed at

495
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 5: the time, but he had kind of been allure.

496
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 2: You've told me in the past that you were watching

497
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 2: the episode when Luke raped Laura. Can you describe that experience.

498
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 5: So there's this one Friday. I couldn't tell you what

499
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 5: time of year it was. I couldn't tell you the month,

500
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 5: but I know it was a Friday afternoon, which is

501
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 5: when they always did the big happenings or cliffhangers. And

502
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 5: I came home from school, I was watching by myself,

503
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 5: and Luke was at his club, Luke's place, and Laura

504
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 5: she was there, and Luke is clearly in love with

505
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 5: Laura and telling her how much he wants her, and

506
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 5: then all of a sudden, it clearly becomes a rape scene.

507
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 5: And I don't know if I even knew the word

508
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 5: rape then, but I knew it was violent. And it

509
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 5: was really an unsettling scene because they weren't shying away

510
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 5: from how violent it was. He's like pushing her down

511
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 5: on the ground. She's saying no. And the next scene,

512
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 5: as I remember it, she's walking around outside and she's dazed,

513
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 5: and she's clearly been through a violent act. And yet

514
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 5: was it violent because the messed up thing is it's

515
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 5: also portrayed as romantic, like he wants her so much

516
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,479
Speaker 5: he can't stop himself, and he doesn't stop himself and

517
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 5: he keeps going. That scene definitely led me to think

518
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 5: that it had something to do with desire. It was

519
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 5: a bad thing, and it hurt her, and that was clear.

520
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 5: But it hurt her because he loved her so much

521
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 5: he couldn't help but hurt her. There's also this sub

522
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 5: theme that she kind of pities him because is poor guy.

523
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 5: You know, he can't help it. And I think now

524
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 5: seen in the cold light of day and a bunch

525
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 5: of decades more experience, like that's a very classic way

526
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 5: that women are thought to think about bad men or

527
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 5: violent men, that they can't help it, and are you

528
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 5: really going to hold them accountable for their actions? Poor guys,

529
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 5: they've suffered enough. But I didn't see any of that

530
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 5: at the time. I just sort of witnessed that they

531
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 5: continued to fall in love and that it was like,

532
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 5: Hella romantic.

533
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: Were you rooting for them? I was totally rooting for them.

534
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 5: I mean not then that day of the rape, but

535
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 5: as time went on and everybody was rooting for them,

536
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 5: and you know, it culminated in this wedding, which I

537
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 5: was probably too young to really care about. But man,

538
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 5: that wedding was a really big deal.

539
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 2: Do you remember talking to your friends about it, talking

540
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 2: to them about the rape.

541
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 5: I don't remember talking to any friends about it at

542
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 5: the time, but a couple of years after that scene

543
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 5: aired on General Hospital and it was still kind of

544
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 5: the only reference point I had for rape. I was

545
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 5: walking home from school and I was on this sort

546
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 5: of like backwoods road and this guy pulled up next

547
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 5: to me in a trans am. I was probably thirteen

548
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 5: at the time, and he had his pants down around

549
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 5: his knees and you know, was flashing me said something

550
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 5: to me. I screamed, ran away, ran home, called my

551
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 5: friend and I said, you're not going to believe what

552
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 5: just happened to me. On the way home from school,

553
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 5: I was like shaking. I'm sure my voice was trembling.

554
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 5: And she said, did you get raped?

555
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: And it was.

556
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 5: Like we didn't know enough to know how awful that

557
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 5: would have been. Like to her, it was this dangerous, alarming,

558
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 5: but still kind of hot thing that could have happened.

559
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: Looking back on it now, how do you think about it?

560
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 5: My friends and I talk about this all the time,

561
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 5: like my friends who I grew up with, like, can

562
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 5: you believe that Luke rape Laura?

563
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: Nope?

564
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 5: Still can't believe that Luke raped Laura and that that's

565
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 5: what led to this relationship, and particularly over time, like

566
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 5: I stopped watching Soapapa's probably when I was in high school.

567
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 5: But when I look back on it, it's such a

568
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 5: fundamental messing with how a whole generation of girls who

569
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 5: weren't really getting any kind of education around consent. All

570
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 5: the things we talk about now with varying degrees of success,

571
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 5: we weren't talking about at all then and It's such

572
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 5: a devastating message about what a guy will do if

573
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 5: he loves you enough, like he's going to hurt you,

574
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 5: and you know you should forgive him for that, because

575
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 5: poor guy.

576
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: This storyline between Luke and Laura was obviously very serious

577
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: subject matter. But one of the things that occurred to

578
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: me when we started to work on this episode is

579
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: that now we're sort of looking back on it and

580
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: talking about it in a serious way. But the reason

581
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: soap operas were often dismissed is that they did have

582
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: and I just want to make sure we don't lose

583
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: sight of this. Banana's absolutely wild storylines like demonic possession

584
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 2: and you know, clones like you would get in an accident,

585
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: someone would clone you, you'd have a baby would turn

586
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: out to be the devil. There was like a storyline

587
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: on One Life to Live where they time traveled. I mean,

588
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: there were these just like insane storylines, and Lucan Laura

589
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: weren't an exception. They would go on these Raiders of

590
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: the Arc type adventures. But then there is this period

591
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: in the late eighties and nineties where it becomes quite fantastical. Okay,

592
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 2: that is partially why soap operas get this rap as

593
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: a silly, sort of cheesy thing, but at the same time,

594
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: there were a lot of social issues are introduced, partially

595
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: because women are not being hired to make prestige television,

596
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 2: They're not being hired on primetime shows.

597
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: They are making these soap operas.

598
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: They are hiring other women to be the writers, and

599
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: so a lot of topics that those women are interested in.

600
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 4: Oh, that's really interesting discussed too, the place that a

601
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 4: woman showrunner or a woman writer could actually thrive.

602
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: And yeah, thrive and actually explore real issues that women

603
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 2: were facing, domestic violence, addiction. So you sort of have

604
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: this idea, Oh, it would have been handled more sensitively,

605
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 2: but I think this just reflects how people genuinely think about.

606
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 3: Right, And yeah, that's interesting too.

607
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 4: It's like, actually, maybe this is more accurate to what

608
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 4: we really did think of it at the time.

609
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 2: Well, and also maybe this was a sensitive handling for

610
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 2: the time, Like maybe the way this would have been

611
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: handled in previous iterations is she wouldn't have been believed

612
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,239
Speaker 2: or she would have been dismissed. Like there is an

613
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 2: attempt made here to handle this with sensitivity. They have

614
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 2: Francis and Tony Gary, the actors meet with a social

615
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: worker before they tape the scene. I mean, there is

616
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: an acknowledgement that this is a difficult subject to tackle.

617
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: It's just interesting that even their version of sensitivity is

618
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: so baked into the era that it represents that it

619
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: still reveals these really outdated notions about rape.

620
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 6: I can give you my perspective here.

621
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: So we did end up calling your friend Daniel Thompson,

622
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: who you mentioned at the top of the show.

623
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 3: Oh good, I'm so glad.

624
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 6: The history of soaps is so vast and expansive that

625
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 6: it's like saying, let me tell you the history of

626
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 6: the world in like five minutes.

627
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 4: For those listening, this is Daniel Thompson. She's a longtime

628
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 4: television writer and researcher and the person that I basically

629
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 4: go to whenever I have a really intricate question.

630
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 3: About TV of the past. So what did she say?

631
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 2: Well, first, she said that it wasn't her thesis that

632
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 2: she wrote about soaps and sexual assault storyline oops, But

633
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 2: it was a very long college essay, so you weren't

634
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: that far I mean close enough. But besides being able

635
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 2: to share what she learned about this very specific topic,

636
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: she just has this crazy extensive knowledge about the topic,

637
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: and she was such a huge soap fan, so she

638
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 2: really delivers.

639
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 6: I think that you have to remember that soaps don't

640
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 6: just have love in the afternoon. In fact, that's actually

641
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 6: why I stopped watching soaps, because there was not enough romance.

642
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 6: It's kind of known for dealing with serious issues always,

643
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 6: and sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't.

644
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 6: But like in nineteen seventy three, the first legal abortion

645
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 6: on television shown, no All My Children, the first gay

646
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 6: teenager on TV that was Billy Douglas played by Ryan

647
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 6: Phillippy on One Life to Live nineteen ninety two. You

648
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 6: have the first gay marriage in two thousand and nine,

649
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 6: and All My Children the first transgender coming out storyline

650
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,719
Speaker 6: in two thousand and six. Soabaperas are actually the place

651
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 6: where serious issues are addressed. And so, just to like

652
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 6: put Luke and Laura's scene in context of the time,

653
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 6: the frase date rape was not even coined until nineteen

654
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 6: seventy five by Susan Brown Miller in her book Against

655
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 6: Our Will, And so for further context, it was nineteen

656
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 6: eighty two when Miss magazine ran what was like a

657
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 6: groundbreaking study about the subject of date rape, which was

658
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 6: still not really known as a concept because most people

659
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 6: at the time thought of rape as being something that

660
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 6: was committed by a stranger and not someone that was known.

661
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 6: So I think in that context, Luke and Laura is

662
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 6: kind of radical because it's bringing up an issue that

663
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 6: was something people had not really understood or known, that

664
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 6: is of extreme relevance to its viewers, which are primarily women.

665
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 6: And I think what's interesting about Luke and Laura is

666
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 6: that the character was never intended to be a romantic

667
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 6: companion for her. This was definitely not the first act

668
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 6: of sexual vince in soaps, but it is, from my understanding,

669
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 6: the first relationship where the relationship followed the act of

670
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 6: sexual violence instead of preceded it.

671
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: But I don't necessarily.

672
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 6: Think that it kind of sparked off this new trope

673
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 6: of sexual assaults in soap operas. I think, if anything,

674
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 6: it kind of brought in the conversation in a way

675
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 6: that changed it. And because awareness s crew, I think

676
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 6: that storylines about it became more pervasive.

677
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 3: So one question I.

678
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 4: Have is, all, right, so multiple decades have passed, It

679
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 4: was actually just a couple of years ago that it

680
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 4: was the fortieth anniversary of the wedding, and so there

681
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 4: was all this sort of quote unquote in retrospective coverage

682
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 4: of it, and Jeanie Francis spoke about it. So are

683
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 4: those who were involved in the show at the time

684
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 4: expressing different perspectives on it when they look back today.

685
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent.

686
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: I think they're expressing different perspectives and also admitting that

687
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 2: they had different perspectives even at the time. It's also

688
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 2: worth noting that the show itself has acknowledged and revisited

689
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: the assault a few times since it originally aired. Obviously,

690
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: you know, we think about these things differently now, and

691
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 2: the show is aware of that, and so there have

692
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 2: It's been a few times in the show's history where

693
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 2: they tried to confront that, And there was this scene

694
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: between Luke and Laura at some point where they discussed

695
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: what happened, and she confronts him many years later and

696
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 2: he apologizes, we should.

697
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 3: Talk about what happened that night, that one bad night

698
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 3: twenty years ago.

699
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: Eventually, Luke and Laura go on to have kids, so,

700
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 2: you know, as the show is evolving, there's also a

701
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 2: confrontation between Luke and his son with Laura Strangely, their

702
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 2: kid is named Lucky, and he confronts Luke about assaulting

703
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 2: his mother.

704
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: These are not going anywhere until we have this out.

705
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: I am you gonna do?

706
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 5: What if I walk out the door?

707
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: What would you do? Force me to stay? Why?

708
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 6: Because you're stronger than me?

709
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: What do you know? And Luke of course apologizes again

710
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 2: here because it's always part of a redemption arc they're

711
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: trying to give him.

712
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 5: You were conceived, born and raised in love, nothing but love.

713
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: But what's also happened is that I think there was

714
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 2: a lot of questions about this rape when the wedding occurred.

715
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: It's not like journalists who were covering the wedding at

716
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: the time didn't ask about it, and the onus was

717
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: really put, especially on Jeanie Francis, who was quite young,

718
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: to sort of explain this thing. She was often asked

719
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: about it, and she felt like she had to defend it,

720
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 2: and I think Tony Gary also felt that way, and

721
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 2: neither of them seemed like they really appreciated being.

722
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: Put in that position, to be honest.

723
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: They both left the show not long after the wedding

724
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 2: and then returned.

725
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 4: Oh for those.

726
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 2: Later storylines, I mean not just for those later storylines.

727
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: But then they just returned to the show in the nineties,

728
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: and she's gotten to the point where she owed very

729
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 2: openly now, even though she's still on the show today,

730
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: rejects having been put in this position and has said,

731
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: and I'll read a quote from her, as a young kid,

732
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 2: at seventeen, I was told to play rape, and I

733
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 2: played it.

734
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: I didn't even know what it was.

735
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: But at seventeen, you follow the rules, you do as

736
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: you are told, and you aim to please. And now

737
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 2: at sixty, I don't feel the need to defend that anymore.

738
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 2: Think that story was inappropriate. I don't condone it. It's

739
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 2: been a burden that I've had to carry to try

740
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: to justify that story. So I'm not doing that anymore.

741
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 4: That's interesting, and you know, to think about how these

742
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 4: things play out differently today. It was interesting you mentioned

743
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 4: that at the time the actor thing, Luke and Lawer

744
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 4: actually saw a social worker to talk about the playing

745
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 4: of this.

746
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 3: But now you would have an intimacy coordinator on set.

747
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be a totally different ballgame, or you'd

748
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 2: hope that it would be a totally different ballgame. I think, look,

749
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: Geinie Francis is in her sixties now, right, just had

750
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 2: forty years to reflect on this thing that happened to her.

751
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: But she was a seventeen year old girl playing with

752
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: a thirty seven year old actor, right, I mean, just

753
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: the whole thing would be handled so differently now because

754
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: in addition to the rape, there would be the statutory issues.

755
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 2: There just is I think a better understanding of how

756
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 2: power dynamics work, Like it wasn't even really brought up

757
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: at the time that he was her boss.

758
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 4: It's also like, were this scene to play out today,

759
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 4: there would be a concurrent dialogue happening on Twitter and

760
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 4: elsewhere about how it was handled in real time, and

761
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 4: so you'd be having to preemptively prepare for the criticism

762
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 4: that you knew you were going to face and really

763
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 4: make sure it was handled delicately. Yeah.

764
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 2: I mean an interesting thing is is, did you see

765
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 2: The Accused When I came out, that was sort of

766
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 2: like one of the first depictions I ever saw of

767
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 2: gang rape.

768
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: And now the dialogue around that movie has actually even shifted,

769
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: Like I.

770
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: Think it's kind of fascinating because I've seen dialogue about

771
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 2: how it's too violent it's presented and too daring away.

772
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: It's not it's like triggering.

773
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: And I think that's really interesting because the reason that

774
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: movie was so groundbreaking when it happened is because it

775
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: was presented in so violent a way. It sort of

776
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 2: forced you to face the reality of that violence. Yeah,

777
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 2: but now if you played it so violently, they would

778
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 2: say it was exploitative, right, Like, if you did that

779
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: scene now, you would want to handle it with more

780
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 2: sensitivity because we get that rape is violence. We don't

781
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 2: need to like shove it in your face that same way.

782
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 2: But that cultural context is important. When that movie happened,

783
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: people didn't really understand how violent rape could be, so

784
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: it had to be so aggressive.

785
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 4: I think now two storylines are forced to grapple with

786
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 4: the enduring trauma of something like that happening, right, and

787
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 4: that has to be written in Yes.

788
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 2: And I think, let's be honest, we've all or most

789
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 2: of us, have watched many years of Law and Order SVU,

790
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: and that has in many ways changed the way that

791
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 2: rape is handled on other shows. That's an interesting example

792
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,959
Speaker 2: of a show that not only has kind of moved

793
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 2: the needle in terms of how a lot of us

794
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: understand sexual assault, but has actually changed the way other

795
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 2: shows handle it because it has really introduced a lot

796
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 2: of ideas into the culture that are now very commonly

797
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 2: acknowledged as facts, and those things continue to evolve.

798
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 4: Okay, So I feel like we need to take a

799
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,720
Speaker 4: moment to just pause and reacknowledge what we're talking about.

800
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 4: This show is about how we internalize these messages, right, So,

801
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 4: look like nineteen eighty one, I was not born when

802
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 4: this hit, Like this was a little bit before our time,

803
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 4: but when you think about the time when we were

804
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 4: sexually coming of age, like how the strands of this

805
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 4: might have still impacted us in the way that we

806
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 4: saw ourselves in the culture, Like, yes, was it okay

807
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 4: for guys to be really aggressive when they wanted to

808
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 4: pursue you?

809
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 1: I mean, I definitely sell the answer to that was yes.

810
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: I think I put up with a lot of things

811
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 2: that now I see in my niece like that you

812
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 2: would never put up with.

813
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 1: You know, we just accepted a certain level of behavior.

814
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: That we wouldn't now know And now it's understood that

815
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 2: this is completely unacceptable, But you know, at that time,

816
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: I think people just really didn't understand what the boundaries were,

817
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 2: Like this reminds me of this crazy jarring anecdote that

818
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: I read, which is really stayed with me. It's that

819
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 2: Tony Geary, the actor who plays Luke, told the story

820
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: that when he would go to like soap opera conventions

821
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 2: and events after the scene aired, women would come up

822
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 2: to him and say, rape me Luke.

823
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah.

824
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 2: And it's like a thing that he would tell because

825
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: he was so disturbed by it.

826
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 4: But I think it says so much about what we've

827
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 4: been talking about here, which is that there's this underlying

828
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 4: sense that a woman should like want to be found irresistible.

829
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 2: Right, And it just introduces this idea that men express

830
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: love or this like need through violence, and that if

831
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 2: you experience it as violence and not love, the problem

832
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: is with you and not the thing that's happened to you.

833
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: Right.

834
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 4: I'd be really interested to hear from Cindy a someone

835
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 4: who actually lived through this.

836
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 5: I think I learned that as a woman, it's incredibly

837
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 5: flattering and important to be desired by a man, and

838
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 5: that even if that quote unquote desire is violent and

839
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 5: hurts you or hurts other people, that like, on some

840
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 5: level that's okay. I feel like in a way, I'm

841
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 5: a best case scenari. I had a very feminist mom

842
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 5: who did not truck with those kinds of stereotypes at all.

843
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 5: I'm lucky that in those years after watching that on

844
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 5: General Hospital, I didn't have any kind of rape experience myself,

845
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 5: which is unusual I think for women. But still, on

846
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 5: some level, I think it just underlined this very present

847
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 5: message in our culture that you're kind of nobody unless

848
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 5: a guy has overwhelming desire for you. I mean, when

849
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 5: you think about it, General Hospital taught a whole generation

850
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 5: of women like me, girls at the time what relationships were,

851
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 5: what family secrets were, about, what infidelity was, and also

852
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 5: what sexual violence is. And I don't think it taught

853
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 5: us accurately.

854
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 2: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. Is there a

855
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 2: cultural moment you can't stop thinking about and want us

856
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 2: to explore in a future episode. Email us at inretropod

857
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com, or find us on Instagram at

858
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 2: in retropod.

859
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 4: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us

860
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 4: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you

861
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,840
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862
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 4: which we may or may not delete.

863
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett

864
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books

865
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 2: Feminist Fight Club and This Is Eighteen.

866
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 4: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media.

867
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 4: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our

868
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 4: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and

869
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 4: associate producer.

870
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our

871
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina at Norville.

872
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram.

873
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 2: Additional editing help from Mary Doo and Mike Coscarelli. Sound

874
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: correction and mastering by Amanda Rose Smith. We are your

875
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 2: hosts Susie Beannacarum.

876
00:43:58,960 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 3: And Jessica Bennett.

877
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 4: We're also executive producers for even more check out in

878
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 4: retropod dot com.

879
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 3: See you next week.