Speaker 1: It's July of nineteen seventy one. A car rolls down
Speaker 1: the ancient roads outside of the sprawling city of Palermo.
Speaker 1: Inside the car are a local driver and three American filmmakers.
Speaker 1: The Godfather has arrived in Sicily. Francis Ford Coppola, his
Speaker 1: production designer Dean Tavalias, and producer Gray Frederickson are scouting
Speaker 1: locations near Corleone, the town whose name Mario Puzo appropriated
Speaker 1: for his American mafia family.
Speaker 2: Dean Tavalius takes his camera out of his bag and
Speaker 2: starts taking photos from the back window of the car.
Speaker 2: The driver goes berserk. No camera, no photos, someone will see,
Speaker 2: he says.
Speaker 1: On this summer's day in nineteen seventy one, many mobsters
Speaker 1: still live here, which causes the furor over Tavalerus's.
Speaker 2: Tensions are high. A judge was recently assassinated, and the
Speaker 2: authorities think the culprit is hiding out in Corleone.
Speaker 1: But Corleone is too urban, dirty and crowded to capture
Speaker 1: Coppola's vision. The group travels on. They finally reached the
Speaker 1: tiny villages in the hills, just a few miles away
Speaker 1: from the coastal resort town of Taramina. Here is Coppola's
Speaker 1: land of ghosts, where Michael comes to live in exile.
Speaker 2: I'm Mark Seal and I'm Nathan King, and this.
Speaker 1: Is Leave the Gun, Take the Canoli.
Speaker 2: In today's episode, we're making our way from the Sicilian
Speaker 2: light to the darkness of Hollywood editing studios and the
Speaker 2: tumultuous season of post production.
Speaker 1: From drug induced obsession to compulsive defiance. The war behind
Speaker 1: the making of The Godfather rages on.
Speaker 2: So we escaped grim New York for the hot, bright
Speaker 2: light of Sicily in July of nineteen seventy one.
Speaker 1: Yes, and it comes as a relief for Coppola and
Speaker 1: our beleaguered crew.
Speaker 2: The slim down cast and crew went to Sicily for
Speaker 2: two weeks, which was yet another fight that Copla had
Speaker 2: with the studio.
Speaker 1: The studio brass, of course, thought it would be a
Speaker 1: lot simpler and a lot less expensive to shoot on
Speaker 1: the back lot of the studio than to travel all
Speaker 1: the way to Sicily with a crew and shoot there.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine how different that would have looked?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it would have made a big difference.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can feel these scenes when Michael's walking
Speaker 1: through these back roads of Sicily with his bodyguards, and
Speaker 1: then he meets Apollonia by chance and is hit by
Speaker 1: what he calls the thunderbolt. Even Gordon Willis the fronts
Speaker 1: of darkness embraced the Sicilian light. Here he is in
Speaker 1: a two thousand and two interview on NPR.
Speaker 3: So I figured at that point Sicily should look, you know,
Speaker 3: mythical and sonny and kind of storybook feeling, So that
Speaker 3: there was a juxtaposition between these two places, New York
Speaker 3: and Sicily. And there was a counterpoint when I went
Speaker 3: back and forth.
Speaker 2: Willis and Coppola were finally getting a long once they
Speaker 2: got to Sicily. Why the sudden congeniality. Were they just
Speaker 2: happy to be in Italy?
Speaker 1: Well, I think the pressure was a little turned down.
Speaker 1: Filming was almost over, and crucially, Jack Ballard was an
Speaker 1: ocean away, no longer breathing down their necks.
Speaker 2: If Jack Ballard has gone, how is Robert Evans keeping
Speaker 2: tabs on filming?
Speaker 1: Well, he's really not. Jack Ballard had this idea that
Speaker 1: dailies could be overnighted to him every day, but that
Speaker 1: didn't really work out.
Speaker 2: I have a feeling they got lost in the mail.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't the best plan. Listen to this memo.
Speaker 1: Twa flight eight forty five leaving Rome two pm every
Speaker 1: day and arrives in Los Angeles one h five am
Speaker 1: the next day. This means Monday's dailies would be sent
Speaker 1: on Tuesday, arrived Hollywood Wednesday running Beverly Hills the same day,
Speaker 1: and we in turn would ship Thursday morning.
Speaker 2: Well, no wonder Copola was happy. By the time he
Speaker 2: gets notes on the first day of shooting, four days
Speaker 2: have gone by.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And it didn't work out the way Jack
Speaker 1: Ballard wanted. According to Al Ruddy, the shooting in Sicily
Speaker 1: just went smoothly. They got in, did their work, and
Speaker 1: got out with very little fanfare.
Speaker 2: So tell me about casting the Sicilians. I know the
Speaker 2: casting of Apollonia was so important to Copola.
Speaker 1: It was and Coppola gave an interview in two thousand
Speaker 1: and one that we've mentioned before where he takes us
Speaker 1: through his prompt book. I'm in the Sicilian section.
Speaker 4: I see it says the corps to show how Michael
Speaker 4: meets and falls in love with Apollonia and demonstrate that
Speaker 4: he intends to marry her, and indicate Fabrizio's desire to
Speaker 4: go to America.
Speaker 1: And even at this stage of early planning, Coppola knew
Speaker 1: that Apollonia had to be a true beauty.
Speaker 4: Five pitfalls If Apollonia doesn't make your heart stop just
Speaker 4: to look at her.
Speaker 2: How did Coppola end up finding the woman who would
Speaker 2: play Apollonia, Semonetta Stephanelli.
Speaker 1: Well, there were a list of twenty two front runners.
Speaker 1: They were looking at really more well known young Italian actresses,
Speaker 1: but ultimately they still weren't quite there with the casting
Speaker 1: of Apollonia, and a casting director sent Coppola a photo
Speaker 1: and he said, let's meet her, and so he met
Speaker 1: her for an audition, and she apparently was perfect.
Speaker 2: And for such a short lived character, she delivers an
Speaker 2: incredible performance and her and Pacino have an incredible chemistry
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: Yes, and she spoke no English, but she later said
Speaker 1: in an interview that she could tell Cino wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to her, but they mostly spoke with their eyes.
Speaker 2: And Sicily was a bit of a homecoming for Pacino,
Speaker 2: right his grandparents were from there.
Speaker 1: I phenom mistaken, yes, and I think he felt so
Speaker 1: at home there, freed up from the pressures that he
Speaker 1: had in New York where he felt like he was
Speaker 1: going to be fired, and in Sicily he knew the
Speaker 1: role was his and he was able to relax a
Speaker 1: little bit. You know, I was able to interview Pacino
Speaker 1: by email for the book, and I can read you
Speaker 1: a bit of what he said about filming in Sicily,
Speaker 1: and I quote the Sicilian people embraced us. I loved
Speaker 1: their honesty, openness and hospitality. I had not become well known,
Speaker 1: so I had the luxury of just being another person.
Speaker 2: And that very much mirrors his character in the movie Michael,
Speaker 2: who sort of escapes New York and lives in relative
Speaker 2: anonymity in Sicily. My name is Michael Kohli.
Speaker 5: Sama, Miguel Gorlone. There are people who pay a lot
Speaker 5: of money for that information so that a better kids think.
Speaker 1: But then your daughter would.
Speaker 6: Lose a father a lot of our given that.
Speaker 5: A bombas it, instead of gaining a husband.
Speaker 1: And I suppose I think Paccino felt freed up from
Speaker 1: the pressures that he had in New York, where he
Speaker 1: felt like he was going to be fired, and in
Speaker 1: Sicily he knew the role was his and he was
Speaker 1: able to relax a little bit. And you can kind
Speaker 1: of see it, you know, you see him in the villages,
Speaker 1: drinking at that bar, meeting Apollonia's father and walking down
Speaker 1: those ancient roads. I mean, you feel he's more relaxed.
Speaker 2: So filming in Sicily ends with the literal bang of
Speaker 2: Apollonia's untimely death.
Speaker 1: The day as Simonetta Stephanelli so simply put it in
Speaker 1: that interview. I met him, I married him, I.
Speaker 2: Died when it came time to leave Sicily, the production
Speaker 2: moves back to Los Angeles, where the mood is quite different.
Speaker 1: Now the fight over post production begins.
Speaker 2: But for this fight, Coppola has a slightly different Robert
Speaker 2: Evans to contend with.
Speaker 1: That's right, during the height of filming, when Evans was
Speaker 1: watching dailies and absolutely obsessed with the movie, he injured
Speaker 1: his back supposedly playing tennis. Here's what his then wife
Speaker 1: Alan McGraw told me.
Speaker 7: He played very good, but very un beautiful tennis and
Speaker 7: he just, you know, it's just a freak thing. He
Speaker 7: just swung back and tripped and torqued his back severely.
Speaker 1: He was in immense pain, completely drugged up with painkillers
Speaker 1: and cocaine and literally being wheeled between the paramount editing
Speaker 1: rooms in West Hollywood on a gurney. Here's Peter Bart
Speaker 1: but he was.
Speaker 5: In such terrible shape that he was physically a myth,
Speaker 5: and he looked like a ghost.
Speaker 2: I feel like this whole episode goes to show how
Speaker 2: dedicated Evans was. Nothing was going to stop him from
Speaker 2: leaving his mark on the film.
Speaker 1: Certainly not. But as he wrote in his memoir several
Speaker 1: years later, the drugs really took a toll on him.
Speaker 2: So Evans is running his empire from mcgurney. Where's Copola?
Speaker 1: Copola basically recuses himself back to San Francisco to take
Speaker 1: a first pass of the edit. He and his wife
Speaker 1: Eleanor had just bought a huge Victorian mansion in San
Speaker 1: Francisco's Pacific Heights neighborhood.
Speaker 2: That's a step up from the borrowed apartment in New York.
Speaker 1: It was a step up, but according to Eleanor, these
Speaker 1: previous owners had a lot of and so they woke
Speaker 1: up in the middle of the night scratching, and they
Speaker 1: had been bitten by fleas.
Speaker 2: But at least he's not in La Copyla had insisted
Speaker 2: from the beginning that the Godfather was not and should
Speaker 2: never be an La production.
Speaker 1: I think it was a technicality. Coppola is in San Francisco,
Speaker 1: but Robert Evans' presence had followed him there. Coppola later
Speaker 1: said that Evans threatened to take the edit away from
Speaker 1: him if he delivered a movie longer than two hours
Speaker 1: and fifteen minutes.
Speaker 2: So where does he begin.
Speaker 1: Well, Coppola hires two editors, Bill Reynolds and Peter Zenner,
Speaker 1: and the trio start the editing process right in that
Speaker 1: flea ridden Victorian home, where they screen almost ninety hours
Speaker 1: of footage. It was so much to get through that
Speaker 1: the two editors flipped a coin. Reynolds would take the
Speaker 1: first half and Zenter the second, and somehow the three
Speaker 1: of them got a cut together that was two hours
Speaker 1: and fifty three minutes long.
Speaker 2: Well, that's it. Copola loses the addit if Evans's rule
Speaker 2: is to be.
Speaker 1: Believed, Yes, in his characteristic defiance, Coppola delivers a cut
Speaker 1: that he knows it's too long. He showed it first
Speaker 1: to his colleagues an American Zoo trope in a San
Speaker 1: Francisco screening room, and then to the suits at Paramount
Speaker 1: at the Gulf and Western Building in New York.
Speaker 2: How does Robert Evans make it to New York but
Speaker 2: it's bad back.
Speaker 1: I have no clue.
Speaker 2: Maybe with the help of some drugs.
Speaker 1: Maybe.
Speaker 2: So what are the reactions to the screening?
Speaker 1: Well, Coppola remembers the San Francisco reaction being just so so.
Speaker 1: Walter Murrat remembered it being incredible, but the New York
Speaker 1: screening was a different story. Here's Peter bart And with.
Speaker 5: The president in charge of Italy. The territory said that
Speaker 5: the picture would never play in Italy. He said, I do.
Speaker 5: I'm not sure it's even worth advertising it overseas. Not
Speaker 5: a good movie, so it was very negative at that point.
Speaker 1: Apparently Evans was in a feud with Paramounts new president
Speaker 1: Frank Yablans, who were both buying for the approval of
Speaker 1: Charlie Bludorn.
Speaker 5: Frank said, too long, won't play it often enough, and
Speaker 5: he didn't like the picture that much.
Speaker 1: So word gets back to San Francisco. The Coppola has
Speaker 1: to cut forty minutes from his masterpiece. Oh now he
Speaker 1: gets worse. Not only does he have to cut forty minutes,
Speaker 1: he has to take the new cut down to La
Speaker 1: to screen it in the poolhouse at Woodland for an
Speaker 1: adult Robert Evans.
Speaker 2: And how does Evans feel about the new cut?
Speaker 1: Robert Evans groans. He says the shorter version, which by
Speaker 1: the way, is still two hours and fifteen minutes, feels
Speaker 1: even longer. Here's Evans sparing no words about how he
Speaker 1: felt in his memoir.
Speaker 8: The picture stinks, friend has got it. The Untouchables is better.
Speaker 8: You shot a great film. Where the fuck is it
Speaker 8: in your kitchen with your spaghetti? It's sure ain't on
Speaker 8: the screen. Where's the family?
Speaker 6: The heart?
Speaker 2: The feeling is that lift of the kitchen too.
Speaker 1: He immediately calls New York and tells al Ruddy that
Speaker 1: if they leave it at two point fifteen, then he's
Speaker 1: walking and they can close the fucking studio.
Speaker 8: Name me a studio head that tells the director to
Speaker 8: make a picture longer, only enough like me would sounds
Speaker 8: about right.
Speaker 1: The movie consumed him, and keep in mind he's still
Speaker 1: being rolled around on this gurney and insists that Coppola
Speaker 1: stay in La so they can edit the movie together.
Speaker 2: This guy can't escape.
Speaker 1: No, you really can't. And to make it worse, Coppola
Speaker 1: is strapped for cash at this time. He's waiting on
Speaker 1: his next paycheck, so he's staying in James Conn's guest room.
Speaker 2: And how long does it take?
Speaker 1: About two weeks. But the facts are fuzzy, partially, I
Speaker 1: think because Evan's later would recall it like something out
Speaker 1: of a bad acid trip. Here's Evans again, reading from
Speaker 1: his memoir.
Speaker 8: I was feeling like a fucking cartoon character, having various
Speaker 8: hands turned me over from one orthopedic bed to another,
Speaker 8: from bedroom to home screening room to paramount screening rooms,
Speaker 8: to bed on wheels, going from sound stage to sound stage.
Speaker 1: He was completely consumed by the Godfather, and I think
Speaker 1: he went a little nuts.
Speaker 8: My priorities are so fucked up and nothing bothered me.
Speaker 8: Nothing got in my way, including my health, my wife,
Speaker 8: my kid, my finances. My obsession was the Godfather.
Speaker 2: And how did that obsession show up in the edit?
Speaker 1: Well? According to Evans, he made the radical decision to
Speaker 1: make the film longer, and he painstaking the extended shots
Speaker 1: and found new scenes, but.
Speaker 2: Coppola wanted it longer from the beginning exactly.
Speaker 1: I was able to communicate with Coppola over email when
Speaker 1: I was writing the book, and I sent him a
Speaker 1: list of questions. Next to the question what were Robert Evans'
Speaker 1: contributions to the final edit of the film, he just
Speaker 1: left a blank, So no contribution apparently, And it makes
Speaker 1: sense that they have different recollections of this time. According
Speaker 1: to Peter Bart, they weren't even speaking. They just spoke
Speaker 1: through him. Here's what Peter told me.
Speaker 5: Now, Bob feels that he found scenes that Francis had
Speaker 5: left out and nuance, scenes had great nuance about character,
Speaker 5: and restored those. I do not know who is right.
Speaker 5: I suspect that A that Francis is correct, that b
Speaker 5: that Bob also had a brilliant take on the picture
Speaker 5: and did let scenes run long that had been cut
Speaker 5: too abroughly.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't just a behind the scenes There was
Speaker 2: a public press war going on too. Can you tell
Speaker 2: us a little bit about that.
Speaker 1: Yes, the press caught win that the premiere was being
Speaker 1: pushed from Christmas to March, which according to Evans, spells
Speaker 1: disaster for a movie.
Speaker 5: And it was exacerbated by Bob then foolishly confiding in
Speaker 5: Joyce Habro the Calumnists that he had saved the movie.
Speaker 5: Then he recut it and saved The.
Speaker 2: Godfather that's a pretty brazen insult. Why do you think
Speaker 2: he did this? It can't be good press that a
Speaker 2: director and studio executive rewarring over the edit.
Speaker 1: Well, it certainly drummed up excitement for the movie. But
Speaker 1: according to Bart, Evans and Joyce Haber were friends and
Speaker 1: it might not have been premeditated.
Speaker 5: So in a moment of weakness, Bob says this, and
Speaker 5: it gets in the paper in Francis. Rightly. As fragile
Speaker 5: as their relationship had did, it became more fragile because
Speaker 5: Fress's copeless opinion. Movie didn't need to be saved. Ninety
Speaker 5: percent could have been done by restoring the cut that
Speaker 5: Ya Bons had seen and rechecked it.
Speaker 2: Well, whatever happened, Evans and Copla must have done something right.
Speaker 1: Yep, and everybody wants credit right. Al Ruddy put a
Speaker 1: Hollywood spin on the famous quote a bad movie is
Speaker 1: like an orphan, but a great movie has twenty eight fathers.
Speaker 2: At the height of the post production battle, things came
Speaker 2: to a head between Copola and Evans. With the film's
Speaker 2: iconic score. Tell us about this final battle mark.
Speaker 1: Well, if you can believe it, this is a bigger
Speaker 1: knockdown drag out fight than the editing.
Speaker 2: Oh, I can believe it with these guys.
Speaker 1: Apparently, while in Sicily, Coppola could hear the haunting score
Speaker 1: of The Godfather in his head. He knew exactly what
Speaker 1: he wanted, But the problem was that Evans knew exactly
Speaker 1: what he wanted as well, and they were polar opposites.
Speaker 2: In fact, Evans had already commissioned a composer to the score.
Speaker 1: Yes and get ready for this. It was Henry Mancini,
Speaker 1: who had done Breakfast at Tiffany's.
Speaker 2: And Copola, on the other hand, felt that the film
Speaker 2: needed something a little bit darker, and he wanted Nino Rota,
Speaker 2: who was called the Italian Mozart.
Speaker 1: Rota was an elusive Italian who had composed the score
Speaker 1: for Franco Zaffarelli's Romeo and Juliet. The only problem was
Speaker 1: Nino Rota lived in rome and he wasn't easy to find.
Speaker 1: His nephew had told me that he was like a phantom,
Speaker 1: you know, and he didn't want to be found. He
Speaker 1: simply disappeared.
Speaker 2: So how did Coppola find him?
Speaker 1: So Coppola had to hunt down a phantom of sorts, right,
Speaker 1: But he found a connection It was an Italian actress
Speaker 1: and screenwriter Suso Checchi Diamico, who a meeting at Nino
Speaker 1: Roto's apartment in Rome, where Coppola screened an early cut
Speaker 1: of the film.
Speaker 2: Dar I ask how long it was?
Speaker 1: It was five hours. He showed him a five hour
Speaker 1: cut of the movie.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine? What did Roda think?
Speaker 1: Well, apparently Roda loved it. There was an immediate connection
Speaker 1: between these two artists, and Coppola left Roda with the
Speaker 1: cut and instructions for each piece of music that he
Speaker 1: felt was needed. By the time Coppola went back to
Speaker 1: Rome for his second visit with Roda, he had an
Speaker 1: edited version of the film and Roda had a surprise
Speaker 1: for him.
Speaker 2: What was it?
Speaker 1: He picked up Coppola at the airport and he was
Speaker 1: humming a song that's it and Evans hated it, You're kidding.
Speaker 1: Six weeks before the release, which would be March of
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two, Robert Evans called an emergency meeting at Woodland.
Speaker 1: It was a hot dog lunch served by his wife
Speaker 1: Ali McGraw, and in this meeting he makes his case
Speaker 1: for using Henry Mancini's music for the film. He says,
Speaker 1: the dark movie needs some bright American music to counter
Speaker 1: all of the blood and all of the bodies.
Speaker 2: How did Coppola react to this?
Speaker 1: Not well? He goes on one of his signature diactribes
Speaker 1: and says that they want to change the music, they
Speaker 1: can fire him, hire another director, and make them take
Speaker 1: out the music. Evans says he wants to screen two
Speaker 1: versions of the film to test audiences and let the
Speaker 1: audiences choose.
Speaker 2: Isn't it a little late for that?
Speaker 1: Of course? And luckily, just as he's making this argument,
Speaker 1: Ali McGraw walks into the room with more hot dogs
Speaker 1: and reminds Evans that they have plans to go to Acapulco.
Speaker 2: Saved by the bell.
Speaker 1: Finally, Evans and Coppola strike a deal. They'll screen just
Speaker 1: the latest cut with Coppola's music to a small audience
Speaker 1: and if they don't like the music, Coppola will take
Speaker 1: it out.
Speaker 2: What did the audience think, of course, they loved it.
Speaker 2: And did Evans ever come around to the music?
Speaker 1: Yes, And Walter March tells a fantastic story about Coppola
Speaker 1: leaving him in La to finish the music with Evans.
Speaker 1: Here's Walter March.
Speaker 6: What is it about the movement his music? That Bubjet's
Speaker 6: great music? Why doesn't he like it? And for some
Speaker 6: reason I thought, well, wait, a minute piece ahead of
Speaker 6: a studio and there's a scene with the head of
Speaker 6: a studio, Waltz Studios, and that guy finds a horse's
Speaker 6: head in his bed in his music, and it is
Speaker 6: a little soft music. Maybe is there something that I
Speaker 6: can do in the music editing to make it a
Speaker 6: little more hitchy than it is? And so I did
Speaker 6: things that I had done on GHX thirty eight, which
Speaker 6: was to take two copies of the music and slide
Speaker 6: one part of the music against the other one so
Speaker 6: that there's a sort of dissonance going on. So I
Speaker 6: called Vin this up and said to have something to
Speaker 6: show you, and he came in and he laid down
Speaker 6: on the on the bed and we pushed the button.
Speaker 6: We played it, and when the scene finished, he jumped
Speaker 6: off of the bed and said, it's great. It's great.
Speaker 2: Do you think he knew that he had lost the
Speaker 2: battle and wanted to be on the right side of
Speaker 2: the story.
Speaker 1: It's possible. I also think this was an incredible moment
Speaker 1: in the movie, and that small change must have swayed him.
Speaker 2: And I have to ask what happened with Jack Ballard.
Speaker 1: Well, in an almost surreal moment of karma, Jack Ballard
Speaker 1: took his last stand and was properly cut down the size.
Speaker 6: We were at the Paramount Lots screening the sound effects
Speaker 6: to reel right after John Corleone leaves the hospital.
Speaker 1: Jack Ballard walked into the room and listened to a
Speaker 1: few minutes of sound effects, and then he stood.
Speaker 6: Up and said, these are the worst sound effects I've
Speaker 6: ever heard in my life. And if the final film
Speaker 6: is going to sound like this, you're never going to
Speaker 6: work in this town again.
Speaker 1: The twenty eight year old Walter March spoke up.
Speaker 6: And I said, Jack, you don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: There was a long silence.
Speaker 6: And he was swaying slightly, and I said, on top
Speaker 6: of editing everything else, you're drunk. And he's looked at
Speaker 6: everyone and he said, you're right, damn drunk. Can I
Speaker 6: told him what the hell I'm talking.
Speaker 1: About, keep up the good work, and with that he
Speaker 1: turned and left the room.
Speaker 2: So Copla and his team won every battle, casting, location, filming, editing,
Speaker 2: and me music. He vanquished his enemies and got to
Speaker 2: make exactly the movie he wanted.
Speaker 1: And after all of that, he still thought he'd made
Speaker 1: a long, boring movie. Leave the Gun, Take the Canoli
Speaker 1: as a production of Airmail and iHeartMedia.
Speaker 2: The podcast is based on the book of the same name,
Speaker 2: written by our very own Mark Seal.
Speaker 1: Our producer is Tina Mullen.
Speaker 2: Research assistance by Jack Sullivan.
Speaker 1: Jonathan Dressler was our development producer.
Speaker 2: Our music supervisor is Randall Poster. Our executive producers are
Speaker 2: Mee Nathan King, Mark Seal, Doan Fagan, and Graydon Carter.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Bridget Arseno and everyone at CDM Studios.
Speaker 2: A comprehensive list of sources and acknowledgments can be found
Speaker 2: in Mark Seal's book, Leave the Gun, Take the Conolly,
Speaker 2: published by Gallery Books, an imprint of Simon and Schuster.