WEBVTT - Vol. 11: Charlie Engle 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.080 Charges. That's created by Portalais and Control Media. It's produced 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:10.760 by dB Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. This 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:13.960 time a former Son's player who you might remember as 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:16.320 t Rex. More video in just a moment, but this 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:18.840 is Rex Chapman's mug Shaun, and we are learning a 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:22.279 lot more about the charge ups and charging. How did 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:24.759 you handle being in prison and how did your family? 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.479 How did your kids handle it? By my junior year, 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:29.960 you know, I just basically stopped going to class and 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:34.560 I started dealing code. My teenage sons dropped me off 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:39.040 at the front gate of Beckley Federal Correctional Institute. I 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:42.840 had a decision in that moment, literally between living and dying, 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:51.280 and I chose running. This is Charges with me. Rex Chapman, 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:54.520 My guest today is not a household name as an 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.600 athlete like some of our previous guests, but I guarantee 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:00.760 that he will run right into your hearts during this episode. 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.440 Charlie Angle is known as Running Man. He is the 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.280 closest example I can think of to being a real 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.400 life Forrest Gump. If you threw him feet first into 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.920 a requiem for a dream reality. Ten years of doing 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:17.600 drugs in the streets around America, thirty plus years sober, 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.000 three thousand miles running across America for mental health advocacy, 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:28.200 undred miles running across the Sahara Desert. One documentary executive 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:32.360 produced and narrated by Matt Damon, six million plus dollars 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.440 raised as co founder for water dot Org for clean 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.959 water projects in Africa, and one mistake in judgment that 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:45.240 led to sixteen months in federal prison. This is charges. 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:53.120 Welcome to charges. I'm your host, Rex Chapman. I hate running. 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:57.000 In fact, in basketball, it's punishment. You mess up, you run. 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.640 You have a bad attitude, you run, you didn't run 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:05.360 fast enough, you run. I'm more of a brisk walker. God, 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.000 I can't imagine it doing it for fun. And yet 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:11.680 our guest today, well he'll tell you he doesn't necessarily 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.799 do it for fun either, But that doesn't stop him 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.760 from doing it a lot of it all on his own, 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.160 no coach forcing him to do it. But Charlie Angele 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:24.800 doesn't just compete as a runner. He's an ultra marathon runner. 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:27.640 That means he runs anywhere from thirty five to a 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.679 hundred miles. He also has been using running to help 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.440 keep him sober and away from addiction for almost thirty 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.720 years now. I'd like to think that recovery, just like running, 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:40.119 is all about putting one foot ahead of the other, 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.480 over and over and over again. Let's find out from 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:49.440 a man who'd know it best, Charlie. Thanks for being here, buddy, man. 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:51.600 I that was the best intro I've ever had. And 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.280 and actually you'd be you'd be surprised to learn that 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:58.160 I don't like running that much either. I definitely am, 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.800 because honestly, you know, basketball is what I grew up playing, 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:06.080 and uh, you know, everything even punishment off the floor, 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:08.000 like if you got in trouble that didn't go to 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:11.840 class up. You're up at six am running, which you 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:14.760 know for a basketball player, I could run sprints all 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:20.960 day long. You know, stop start stop start. The mindset unbelievable. 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:22.920 I'm just I'm dying to find out more, you know 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:24.760 what I mean in short, and I know we'll we'll 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:26.520 talk more about it. But you know, running for me 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:29.640 is a running for me is about where running takes me. 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.720 It's about you know, it's a vehicle to not just 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:38.120 reach certain places within myself and learn more about myself. 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.760 It's it's literally about cultural exploration. You know, I've I've 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.840 run in about fifty countries at this point. And look, man, 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.080 most of the world is on foot. You know. We 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:52.320 live in a very privileged bubble here in the US, 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:54.680 and uh, you know, and I visit a lot of 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.360 places where nobody has a car and everybody's on foot, 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:01.080 and by being on foot with them, it creates a 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:04.280 whole different dynamic and one that I seek out all 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.760 the time. So running, as much as anything, is just 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:08.920 a way for me to see the world in slow 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:13.160 motion because I am slow. That's amazing and I can't 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:15.400 wait to get into all of that. Where'd you grow up, Charlie, 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:17.720 And what was that it like at that time for you? 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:19.960 I grew up here in North Carolina for the most part, 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:25.320 and high school here and you know, played six sports 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:27.960 and made some decent grades. And my my parents were 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.120 nineteen years old so when I was born, and so 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:36.680 I had a pretty bohemian upbringing in the sixties. What 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.680 were your teenage years like? And looking back, did you 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.000 have any vices that you know, maybe led you down 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.240 the wrong path or could have Yeah, you know, I 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.720 as a kid, my mom was perpetually in grad school 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:53.640 so she was a writer and uh, you know, basically 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.880 she wrote plays primarily. Uh there's a chapter in my 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.320 book that I I sort of jokingly called my mother 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.880 the Lesbie and who you know, she was married a 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.359 couple of times, but let's just say those were loose 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:10.640 arrangements and uh an only child, and you know, and 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:14.240 there were you know, they were like cast parties and 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.839 whatever in my house all the time every night. You said, 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:21.240 it was a bohemian upbringing, and you know a lot 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.360 of times there wasn't a lot of food or or 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.480 anything else in the fridge. And I would wander around 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.240 as a nine or ten year old and finish off 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.520 people's beers and a little bit of wine. And I 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:35.839 actually say, you know, in the book, and I think 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.919 it's so true. It's like alcohol planted a flag in 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.320 my brain when I was a kid and like claimed 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.440 that space for its own, and you know, and it 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:49.760 took a while before it manifested, but like I knew, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:54.520 I sort of knew as a young kid that it 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:56.960 was gonna be my you know, something I could always 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.240 count on. Like that's how I felt, like this makes 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.600 me feel warm, been safe, and like I'm going to 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:06.120 use that when I need it. Damn, damn. You know, 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:11.280 looking back, I had addiction in my family, but it 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.719 wasn't until I went to rehab that I started hearing 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.680 you know, I knew what my issues were, but hearing 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:22.240 people with alcohol issues and their stories. And you know, 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:24.800 when you when you started talking, it takes me right 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:28.440 back there, because you just don't know what people are 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:31.240 going through. You don't know how a certain drug or 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:36.320 this this alcohol or that alcohol will affect you particularly well. 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:38.880 And I'm a fourth generation addict, you know, I mean, 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.000 I'm you know, I've got plenty of it in my family. 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:45.400 And genetics are a bit and you know, you just 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.760 like with any other disease, you it's pretty tough to 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.160 escape genetics a lot of times. And and that in 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:55.640 combination with environment, of course, and and some less than 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.680 good choices on my part. And you know, I I 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:01.640 moved done with my dad and I sort of went 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.080 the opposite direction, and I became trying to get you know, 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.320 some love and attention from my father, which you know 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:10.240 took me many years to figure out that was never 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:14.360 gonna happen. Um, no matter what I achieved, I went 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.720 the opposite direction. I played sports, and I, you know, 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.680 dated a few cheerleaders and made good grades and early 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:26.560 acceptance to Carolina and I show up. I show up 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:28.960 at u n C as a seventeen year old freshman 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:31.800 in nineteen eighty you know, I'm going to play football 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:35.920 and all this, And it took about three days. I 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.640 fully expected there to be a banner on my dorm 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:43.400 that said, hey, welcome Charlie, like we're so glad you're here. 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:47.120 We could start our college experience now. And uh, it 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:49.440 took like three days to figure out that I was 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:54.120 unbelievably average. And you know, and and I what I 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:57.120 figured out very quickly is I was an All American. 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:01.120 Don't forget nineteen eighty. Um, you can still drink as 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.880 an eighteen year old in North Carolina. So I turned 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.360 eighteen about a month after I went to college, and 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.800 I took full advantage. And you know, I figured out 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:15.480 that I was an All American first team drinker and 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.480 I could just I literally could. I from the very beginning, 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.440 I could just drink more than anybody else. And unfortunately 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:26.160 that became, you know, kind of, you know, part of 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:29.960 my identity. And that's the way it works. What were 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:32.920 your addictions. Uh when did they start? Was it right 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.679 around that time? Yeah? You know, And and look my 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.920 involvement with um first of all, I should say too, 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.360 like I should have run track. There's only a few 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.880 regrets I have in my life, and it probably wouldn't 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:47.120 have changed things. You know, I think my path was 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.640 genetically set, and I think I probably would have found 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:56.840 the same problems, if not sooner than later. But you know, 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.199 when I got to college, and I really I was 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.800 very I broke my ankle playing basketball like the first 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:07.640 week I was there, and um, you know, I started drinking. 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:13.640 And cocaine was absolutely a ubiquitous drug on campus in 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.240 the eighties. I mean, I I think it probably still 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.440 is to a certain degree, but not like it was 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.479 in the eighties. I mean even while you were there 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:24.840 in Kentucky. I mean you just and as a young 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.600 person in a college student, you don't actually realize that 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:32.520 what you're doing is illegal because when everyone around you 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.800 was doing it too, it just doesn't like feel that way. 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:40.800 Pretty quickly, I went from you know, the first time, 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.839 second time really that I tried coke. It's like, uh, 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:45.960 you know, a light went off in my head and 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.280 it said Okay, I finally found the thing that's gonna 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:53.720 make me, you know, invincible, and I'm gonna you know, 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:58.320 cure cancer and uh make my dad happy and make 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.839 straight a's and oh, give me another line, and uh 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:04.320 we'll keep talking about it. And you know, I do 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.480 think that's that's definitely where it started, thanks to quite honestly, 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.720 thanks to JV basketball. You know, I I sort of 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.360 hung on for a couple of years and managed to 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.640 not flunk out. But by my junior year, you know, 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.520 I just basically stopped going to class and I started dealing. 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.240 I was in a fraternity and I started dealing coke 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.880 and not you know, certainly not to make money, just 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:30.640 simply so that I could. You know, it's an expensive 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.480 drug and and I just wanted to make sure that 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.080 I had enough to do for myself. And you know 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.000 that led me down a certain path. Do you know 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.120 have you heard of Chris Herron? Well, Chris is the 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.240 reason I'm on here. Chris. I know Chris and I 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.640 know his story and what in am I mean? I 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.600 consider him He doesn't even know it, but I consider 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:55.920 him a mentor from Afar. Same. But it reminded me 0:10:55.960 --> 0:11:00.560 because when I was talking with Chris. I was, and yes, 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:04.880 cocaine was everywhere in the eighties, um, every party, every everything, 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:09.920 and I was always so afraid and mainly I felt 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.360 like I would from what my friends said, I would 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.600 either just love it or it would kill me just 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.000 straight away and I'd have a heart attack. But what 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.440 I found interesting with Chris was his description. I said, what, 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:26.400 what's it like? You know? He said for me? He said, 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.360 you know, I would open up and talk about things 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.680 I wouldn't normally talk about and feel like I had 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.120 the whole world figured out. And then of course I'd 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.760 wake up in the morning and would barely remember or 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.880 just want to forget what I had talked about. So 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:46.400 I find that fascinating. Charlie, it's it's it's yeah, I 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.640 mean what he said, and and yeah, you know you 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.240 got these big ideas, And I mean, maybe the difference 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.760 between me and Chris is, um, I just never you know, 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.920 I never did wake up from a cocaine binge, because 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.480 is I just never went to sleep. You know, I 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.760 was two or three days at a time, always dictated 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:10.640 by how much money or drugs I had, And after 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:14.440 I you know, flunked out and left college. You know, 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.480 it wasn't uncommon for there to be four or five 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:23.160 or six day binges um and it went from you know, 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.240 coke to crack, which was much easier to get and 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:32.040 especially in the in the eighties, and I never wanted 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.880 to do that. I was working in Denver, I'll never 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.480 forget it, and I was, uh, you know several years 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:42.559 I was probably twenty four and I was working there 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:44.120 and I went down you know, my thing is I'd 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:45.840 go into a town and I go to a bar 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.560 and I'd be like, hey, where do you have fun 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:50.600 around here? And they'd say, oh, you go here, and 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.800 you go here, but be sure you stay away from Colfax, 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.280 you know, don't go to that neighbor. And I'm like, okay, well, 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.240 just so I don't go down there. Where is that, 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.000 you know? And of course I would drive straight there, 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.839 and anybody who knows Denver, you know, there's a certain 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.800 part of Colfax as a pretty rough spot and and um, 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.440 you know that's where I would go. And I had 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:16.880 this binge there that you know, after about five days, 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.520 I'd run out of money and the dealer I was 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.840 using stole my car um because of course drug dealers 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:28.640 can be very inconsiderate, and uh, you know, and I 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.800 literally they stole my jacket. And it's snowing, and I 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:35.040 leave this dumpy ass motel and I'm walking down Coal 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:39.199 Fax and I literally see my car down the road 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.000 and I it's all it's running. I could see smoke 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.959 coming out the tailpipe. And I run to my car 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.760 and I get in and I'm like, just I'm blown away. 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:53.160 I'm getting my car. I get in and pull out 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.600 and drive around the block and I hear this sound 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.280 in the back seat, you know. And I turned around 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.760 and there's like a twelve month old baby strapped into 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.760 the back seat of the car. And of course, I 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:09.320 you know, drove around the block and I come back 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:11.520 up to the house where the car had been, and 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.000 there's a woman frantically waving her arms out in the street, 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.480 and you know, and I literally I just pulled up. 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:21.840 She looked at me. I looked at her. She opened 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.240 the back door, she unstrapped her baby and took the 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:26.440 baby out, and because she knew the deal, and I 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:30.480 knew the deal, and you know, and I drove away, 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.760 and I mean, but that is the kind of craziness 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:38.960 that I put myself into almost constantly stealing your own 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:44.240 car back. Yeah, I mean that's amazing, amazing. Well, and 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.960 the crazy thing is I never got in trouble back then, 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.920 and I you know, that's almost another We could do 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.280 a whole show on the reason for that. But the 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:57.080 reason is, you know, of course I was a still 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:01.080 a pretty clean cut white guy driving a Toyota four Runner, 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.680 and nobody ever stopped me, you know, and I mean 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.000 literally in years, no one, despite the fact that I 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:13.080 deserved all kinds of d U E s and everything 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.520 else back in the day. You know, I didn't get 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.520 stopped back then. And you know, I look back on 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:22.280 those days and those experiences as probably the most you know, 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:26.600 formative and of my life, and some negative things, but 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:31.640 of course, in fact, like all lessons, some really positive 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.560 things came out of it, and some advocacy and some 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:41.640 understanding of the kind of the real world. Man. What's 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.600 so unique about the timeline of Charlie Engel is that 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.520 he spent his young adult years as a traveling salesman 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:51.480 before becoming a world class athlete. Not exactly a story 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:55.040 that we've heard before. Frankly, Charlie and the millions that 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:57.920 he's helped through his foundation. Are fortunate that he even 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:04.560 survived his downward spiral that didn't all across America. So 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.520 it's Charlie, what what was your turning point? Uh in 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.360 the early nineties, What were you doing and what happened 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:12.960 that made you go, oh shit, you know this is 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:17.880 really bad? Yeah? Yeah, well, you know, and during those years, 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.120 and it's basically a decade of pretty hardcore use, you know, 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.160 I made sure that I was always the top salesman. 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:26.960 You know, I had a lot of geographics, as we 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.480 call them in recovery, where I would move to a 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:34.480 new town, Seattle, l A, San Francisco, Atlanta. I mean 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:38.040 I I made the rounds and for six months i'd 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.200 get a job, I'd be the top salesman. I would 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:45.880 kick ass and get a girlfriend and then decide, hey, 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.000 you know, I'm doing great. I deserve to have a 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:50.720 beer or whatever. And even though I've never had one 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:56.000 beer ever in my life, without having all of them, 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.960 and uh, you know, in this path often led me 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.800 to want to quit. Yeah, I always made a joke 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:04.920 about it. I said, you know, quitting is easy. I've 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.399 done it a hundred times. Just the starting up again. 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:15.080 I went to rehab, I went to church, I went 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.679 to uh, I saw a shaman. If I could have 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.480 found a witch doctor, I would have done that. Like 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:23.320 I mean, I I felt like I had tried everything, 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.119 and in when I was twenty nine years old, my 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:32.800 first son was born, and Brett was gonna be my savior. 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:37.600 You know, I thought that, finally, Okay, you surely I 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:42.800 can stay sober for my son, right because, uh this person, 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.960 you know, holding this little baby and feeling the feelings 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:50.119 I had for him. And I know you have kids, 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:51.679 so I know you know what I'm talking about, you know, 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.800 and you're you're like, this is as an addict, I 0:17:54.840 --> 0:18:00.240 actually thought I was incredibly broken and completely undeserved being 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:05.200 of love or incapable of giving love. And all of 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.040 a sudden that all changed with this little boy. And 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:10.800 you know, for the first time in my adult life, 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:14.240 I kind of had I had hope and I had strength. 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:20.359 And two months later, you know, I'm in Wichita, Kansas, 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:24.760 and inexplicably, I end up in the worst neighborhood in town. 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.600 And I spent six days smoking crack and drinking, and 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:32.200 that binge ended with me sitting on the ground outside 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.200 a fifteen dollar a night motel room that I couldn't 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.959 pay for anymore. And I'm handcuffed behind my back and 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.760 the police are searching my car and there's three bullet 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:45.560 holes in the car, and you know, and those were 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.400 meant for me, like they weren't shooting at my car, 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:53.159 and you know, and I'm watching this cop actually search 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.680 around the driver's seat and like he reaches under the 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.399 driver's seat and he pulls out a pipe, a glass pipe, 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.800 and he turns around, looks at me and like shakes 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:07.760 his head. And any rational, moderately sane person would have 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.399 been like, oh ship, you know, I'm in some serious trouble, 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:14.359 Like this is gonna be bad. And instead, all I 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:19.080 could think was, so that's where that was. Like I've 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:21.399 been looking for that pipe for two days, you know. 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.960 It's like how did that cop find it in like 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.120 five minutes? You know, And and and then my next 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.280 thoughts like I wonder if there's anything left in there? 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:36.920 And are you columbo hell? And you know, look, man, 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.879 I know you have the same thought. You can't stay 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:41.919 in the darkness. You have to make fun of this 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:46.720 stuff and of ourselves in these situations. But the important 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:50.480 thing is in that moment, the after six days of 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.480 not sleeping and all the other stuff that goes along 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:56.560 with it, you know, I had the clearest thought that 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:00.480 I'd ever had, and it was simply, nobody he's coming 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:04.400 to save you. Your son can't save you, your dad 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.440 can't save you, your wife can't save your job, can't 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:10.679 save you. Like until you make the decision that you 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.200 want to be saved, Like, there's just no way it's 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.480 ever gonna happen. And you know, and I realized I 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.639 had a decision in that moment, literally between living and dying, 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:25.159 and I chose running, you know. And I went to 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.600 an a meeting that night. That's the first one I'd 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.640 ever gone to that I actually like, was that your 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:36.879 lowest moment the hand, Yeah, lowest and highest right, because 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:41.120 for a change, I no longer felt the yeah, the 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:44.040 pressure of it all. And I'm look, man, I'm not 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:47.399 a religious person. I didn't grow up in a church 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:49.879 or anything like that, but you know, I mean the 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:51.919 only church I went to was with my grandparents, and 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.560 it was Southern Baptist. And I was pretty sure at 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:56.439 the age of like five, that I was going to 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:00.639 Hell already. So it was it was. It was pointless. 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:04.640 But but in that moment, I actually said a prayer 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:10.080 that you know, wasn't a Santa Claus prayer, you know, 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:12.680 it wasn't. It wasn't the typical prayer of like, if 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.359 you'll just get me out of this, then I will 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.560 fill in the blank, you know. It was just simply 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:23.240 I don't want to feel like this anymore. And you know, 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:24.840 and I went to a meeting. I went to a 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:26.520 meeting at night. I got up the next morning and 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.480 I put on my running shoes. And that was almost 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.239 twenty nine years ago, and I haven't stopped since. How 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:35.359 does one stay sober for thirty days coming from where 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:40.160 you were, let alone thirty years? Were there any moments 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:44.280 where you almost caved? Have you ever relapsed? You know? 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:46.600 From that day? So I went to treatment as a 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.399 twenty six year old and I stayed sober for about 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:54.480 six months, and I relapsed, you know, for two more years. 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:56.919 So and that was when I was twenty six, and 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.000 then at nine, you know, when I got sober this time, 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.560 um um, I certainly had close calls, and a couple 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.320 of them, one that you can relate to very much 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:10.040 was uh and just as a tease because I'm sure 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:12.359 we're gonna get there. You know, I I spent some 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:17.159 time on Federal Holiday in sobriety, and just before I 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:22.040 went to prison, I had surgery on my knee and 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:24.960 because I needed It's just a menisca surgery. It wasn't 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:28.359 that big a deal. But you know, my friend picked 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:31.520 up a big bottle of you know, I don't know 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:34.200 if vicodd or oxy. I don't remember what it was now, 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:37.080 but you know, and I'm staying at his house and 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:39.760 there's a six pack in the fridge and I had 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.439 a little bit of time with you know, both of 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:45.880 those things sitting on the counter in front of me. But, um, 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:49.919 but to your question, the first thirty days, Um, it's funny. 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:51.680 You made me think. It's a story I hedn't hold 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:54.200 in years, and it's a short one. But I got 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:57.159 a spot. I finally followed some of the suggestions and 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:00.040 I got a sponsor. Dude was in his seven and 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:04.600 has been sober over forty years. And in typical fashion, 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.080 I'm like, John, you've been sober forty years? How how like? 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:11.800 How is it possible? Is there a secret? He's like, yeah, 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:14.520 there is a secret. Come to the meeting tonight, like 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:17.520 thirty minutes early, and I'm going to tell you the secret. 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:21.360 I'm like, Ship, that's fantastic, thank you, this is amazing. 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:25.119 I show up thirty minutes early. He's like, I said, okay, 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:27.919 can we talk now. He's like, yeah, you know, do 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:30.560 me a favorite. See those coffee pots over there, go 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:33.240 make like five pots of coffee and then we'll talk. 0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:35.239 And of course it took me thirty minutes to make 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.080 the five pots of coffee. There's the meeting. I come 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:40.000 up to him after the meeting, I'm like, John, can 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:42.800 we talk now. He's like, I'll tell you what I 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:45.360 gotta go right now, but show up thirty minutes tomorrow, 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:48.760 thirty minutes early tomorrow. And you can see where this 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:51.000 is going. And it took me like three or four 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:53.280 days to catch on because I'm not all that bright. 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:56.600 It was the first and greatest lesson that I ever 0:23:56.640 --> 0:23:59.760 had in sobriety, and and it fits for the rest 0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:01.840 of life. And that's that if you want to get 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:05.119 out of your own problems, serve somebody else, you know, 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:08.760 be of service in some way small. You know, none 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:10.800 of the other people in that meeting knew that I 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:15.160 was making coffee. Nobody thanked me, and it was like, 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:17.959 you know, the first time in my life that I 0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:20.120 sort of did. I mean, it sounds silly in a way, 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:25.240 but that I did something small and selfless and didn't 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:29.120 expect to be congratulated for doing it somehow or thanked 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:32.960 and it and it felt great and that it turned 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:35.280 out to be the secret, you know. And I did 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:37.800 it for thirty days and I loved it, and it 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:40.399 it taught me, I think, the greatest lesson that I 0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:44.160 still use today. All I think of this an expedition 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:47.320 so extreme it had never been attempted, that is until now. 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:49.679 And one of the three to conquer this feat is 0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:53.800 Greensboro's Charlie Be. A very busy weekend for ultra a 0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:57.000 little verified runner, Charlie angels. In fact, the next month 0:24:57.040 --> 0:24:59.040 and a half will be kind of busy. Since he 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:02.080 glanced to you the time to run from San Francisco 0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:07.320 to New York City, it took more than forty mile 0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:10.560 run through Africa Sahara As a for professional runner Charlie 0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:12.720 Angle to realize that there was money to be made 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:16.159 in the athletic skincare market. Film star Matt Damon and 0:25:16.200 --> 0:25:19.720 Oscar winner James mull recorded angles track through the Sahara 0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:22.520 to raise awareness about the need for drinkable water in 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:27.240 Africa in their documentary And Running the Sahara. How do 0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:30.520 you start competing? I mean, come on, you're running? How 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:33.679 do you start competing in running? I mean because in 0:25:33.720 --> 0:25:37.400 the intro was just pure punishment to me. No way 0:25:37.440 --> 0:25:41.640 I'd sign up to do it as a primary competitive thing. 0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:44.639 I mean, what, Yeah, be careful what you say, Rex, 0:25:44.760 --> 0:25:47.440 because now you're in. You're in. You're in my orbit now, 0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:51.240 so you're we're going to be having an offline conversation 0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:57.359 about exactly how you're gonna challenge yourself next. No, but 0:25:57.440 --> 0:26:01.240 I I did love the few ing of You know 0:26:01.280 --> 0:26:03.400 what I love about still running a marathon? And I've 0:26:03.440 --> 0:26:07.560 probably run more than two hundred marathons, and I I 0:26:07.640 --> 0:26:11.240 like the feeling of standing on a start line. Sometimes 0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:16.280 it's a hundred people, sometimes it's fifty thou people and 0:26:16.600 --> 0:26:21.919 being surrounded by uh fellowship and community. It's you know, 0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:26.800 not the same with twelve step recovery or whatever type 0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:29.880 of recovery of person does. But you don't know, the 0:26:29.920 --> 0:26:32.560 beautiful thing about running is the guy next to you 0:26:32.560 --> 0:26:34.520 you don't know if he's the CEO of a Fortune 0:26:34.560 --> 0:26:37.679 five company or a janitor at the local high school. 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:40.760 And it doesn't matter because either one of them is 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:45.120 probably gonna kick my ass. And you know, and there's 0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:50.399 a beauty to being having a shared shared suffering is 0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:53.960 actually the best. And that's why twelve step recovery works. 0:26:54.160 --> 0:26:58.879 It's why organized running works, because we we like to 0:26:58.960 --> 0:27:03.760 go out and sweat and suffer with other people. It's 0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:09.359 it's human nature. It makes us feel connected. And you know, 0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:12.400 I spent a few years trying to break three hours 0:27:12.400 --> 0:27:16.480 in a marathon, which which made me like moderately fast, 0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:20.800 but nowhere near like elite level. I mean, were you 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:24.200 maniacal about it? I mean it was something, Yeah, I 0:27:24.320 --> 0:27:26.919 bet I wasn't. I made myself miserable for a while 0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:30.199 because I I like five races in a row. I 0:27:30.280 --> 0:27:34.399 ran like three oh one, three O two and and 0:27:34.400 --> 0:27:38.320 and perfect fashion. My son, it was a funny story 0:27:38.440 --> 0:27:41.520 my my son, who was about two years old. You know, 0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:43.680 I ran the San Diego Marathon and I ran three 0:27:43.680 --> 0:27:46.320 oh one again, and the race is over, and I've 0:27:46.320 --> 0:27:49.280 got him on my shoulders and I'm I'm complaining to 0:27:49.359 --> 0:27:53.600 my wife about my first wife, about um not breaking three. 0:27:53.600 --> 0:27:56.280 You know, the wind was in my face and some bullshit, 0:27:56.880 --> 0:27:59.680 and my son is like tapping me on the head, 0:27:59.760 --> 0:28:01.320 you know how they do when you know they're sitting 0:28:01.359 --> 0:28:04.840 on your soldiers. And it was like dad, daddy, daddy, daddy, 0:28:04.920 --> 0:28:06.760 And he's like, why didn't you just run a little 0:28:06.800 --> 0:28:11.720 bit faster? Like, yeah, that's a good idea, but but 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:13.720 what it really did was remind me that I was 0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:17.800 actually ruining my own experience by trying to put, you know, 0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:23.360 a measure of success on it. And look, I mean 0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:26.679 the short version of my running career, just so people 0:28:26.760 --> 0:28:30.760 know if they care, is you know, I I learned 0:28:30.800 --> 0:28:32.919 a lot in those first thirty marathons, and what it 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:36.159 really taught me was that I wanted to see just 0:28:36.200 --> 0:28:38.600 how far I could go. You know, basically, if I 0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:42.040 learned this lesson from running the marathon, what lesson could 0:28:42.040 --> 0:28:44.600 I learned running a fifty mile or or hundred miler 0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:49.520 or I started running and actually winning races across the 0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:54.840 Gobi Desert in China, across the jungles of Vietnam and Fiji, 0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:59.560 and um I ran across you know, Ecuador, the Mountain 0:28:59.680 --> 0:29:04.360 range is and climbed, you know, Mount McKinley and a 0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:09.040 bunch of volcanoes in Ecuador, and all of that led 0:29:09.120 --> 0:29:12.440 me in this. You know, I was on a weird 0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:17.520 path of uh, both in my business life too at 0:29:17.520 --> 0:29:20.320 that time. I and this is the early two thousands. 0:29:20.480 --> 0:29:24.520 I was now sober about ten years and and I 0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:27.880 became the senior producer for a show called Extreme Makeover 0:29:27.960 --> 0:29:31.520 Home Edition on ABC, you know which most people you know, 0:29:33.320 --> 0:29:35.240 h it was a top show on TV for a while, 0:29:35.320 --> 0:29:38.040 and you know, and I worked started working on the 0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:40.200 pilot on that show and worked for a few years. 0:29:40.240 --> 0:29:43.640 And UM was doing these races all over the world. 0:29:43.680 --> 0:29:46.360 And I did a race in the Amazon Jungle in 0:29:46.400 --> 0:29:49.920 two thousand five, and a guy, just I've never met 0:29:50.000 --> 0:29:53.800 him before, he blurts out this idea. He's like, Hey, 0:29:53.840 --> 0:29:56.360 I wonder if youbody's ever run across the Sahara Desert, 0:29:56.720 --> 0:29:59.680 like the whole Sahara Desert. And I looked at him 0:29:59.680 --> 0:30:02.960 and I said, well, that's a dumb idea, like you'd 0:30:02.960 --> 0:30:04.960 have to be You'd have to be an idiot to 0:30:05.040 --> 0:30:08.480 do that, you know, And of course, being the idiot 0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:11.880 I am, I I couldn't stop thinking about it, and 0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:15.160 I went home and I found out no one Go 0:30:15.360 --> 0:30:18.560 Figure had ever run all the way across the Sahara, 0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:21.480 and first in the adventure world are really hard to 0:30:21.520 --> 0:30:25.360 come by, like there's very few things that somebody hasn't done. 0:30:25.720 --> 0:30:28.000 And I began to tell people I was going to 0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:30.200 be the first person to run across the Sahara, and 0:30:30.360 --> 0:30:32.760 I mean, I owe all this to sobriety and and 0:30:32.840 --> 0:30:37.840 it was audacious, but you know, I finally, I think 0:30:37.880 --> 0:30:39.760 my friend got tired of hearing me talk about it, 0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:42.880 and he introduced me to a big Hollywood director. Um. 0:30:42.920 --> 0:30:45.640 I was sort of you know, on the fringes of 0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:49.360 that world with the TV show and um he had 0:30:49.400 --> 0:30:52.600 won the Academy Award for Best Documentary a few years earlier. 0:30:52.680 --> 0:30:54.680 So I tell him my idea and he's like, yeah, 0:30:54.720 --> 0:30:56.920 I'll do it. And he calls me a week later 0:30:57.120 --> 0:30:59.120 and he's like, hey, I just hung up with Matt 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:03.320 Damon and Matt would like to executive produce this project 0:31:03.360 --> 0:31:05.520 and he wants to be the narrator, Like would that 0:31:05.560 --> 0:31:09.480 be okay with you? And I I dead I dead 0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:11.719 pan because I like to think that I'm funny, and 0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:15.320 I like I paused and I said, you know, God, 0:31:15.400 --> 0:31:17.520 I was really hoping for somebody better, but yeah, I 0:31:17.520 --> 0:31:22.320 guess mad day it will be fine. Uh. And you know, 0:31:22.400 --> 0:31:24.160 and like a year and a half later, I found 0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:28.440 myself at the coast of Senegal in West Africa, you know, 0:31:28.560 --> 0:31:32.120 right at the Atlantic Ocean and Senegal, and I'm getting 0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:35.160 ready with two teammates. Um. One of them is the 0:31:35.200 --> 0:31:37.560 guy that told, you know, sort of mentioned this bad 0:31:37.600 --> 0:31:40.280 idea to begin with. And I would say, you know, 0:31:41.080 --> 0:31:44.360 words said to us by a stranger can sometimes change 0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:48.239 like the entire course of our lives. And you know, 0:31:48.320 --> 0:31:51.600 and we ended up running. I ran two marathons a 0:31:51.760 --> 0:31:58.600 day for one hundred and eleven consecutive days without taking 0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:02.880 a day off, and um, you know, be we became 0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:05.880 the first people in history, the only up to this point, 0:32:05.960 --> 0:32:08.640 to run all the way across the Sahara, almost five 0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:12.120 thousand miles across the Sahara and you know, a hundred 0:32:12.120 --> 0:32:17.160 and fifty degree ground temperatures and you know, mostly deep 0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:22.000 sand and it was it was a crazy, uh life 0:32:22.080 --> 0:32:28.400 changing experience. Yeah, I can't even fathom. I mean the 0:32:28.560 --> 0:32:32.000 endurance part, where did you always have that? Did you 0:32:32.040 --> 0:32:34.160 have the endurance as a kid when you were running, 0:32:34.240 --> 0:32:37.680 you just you could run forever. I did, I really did. 0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:41.520 I mean it was and I have I've worked from 0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:44.240 time to time with I'm not actually even plugging the company, 0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:47.000 but there's a company called inside Tracker, and they they 0:32:47.040 --> 0:32:50.440 do these blood tests which tests certain markers. And I 0:32:50.480 --> 0:32:52.520 did come to find out a couple of years, just 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:54.440 a couple of years ago, though, that I I do 0:32:54.640 --> 0:32:58.239 actually have a genetic marker that is considered like the 0:32:58.360 --> 0:33:02.520 endurance gene um. But I mean, look, dude, I could 0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:05.920 do coke for six days without even taking and without 0:33:05.920 --> 0:33:11.200 even taking a nap. So this is this was child's play. 0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:15.040 How many countries did you run through? What you see 0:33:15.040 --> 0:33:17.200 for better or worse? That still stays with you to 0:33:17.280 --> 0:33:21.120 this day. Yeah, so the I've running more than fifty 0:33:21.240 --> 0:33:25.400 but on the Sahara Run, that was six countries including 0:33:25.600 --> 0:33:31.200 like you know, Synegal, Mauritania, Molly, Niger, Libya, and Egypt. 0:33:31.920 --> 0:33:35.880 And you know, the most beautiful that run was two 0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:38.120 thousand seven, So that's been a little while now. But 0:33:38.160 --> 0:33:41.280 the most amazing thing about that run was it was 0:33:41.280 --> 0:33:43.360 still at a time where not everybody had a cell 0:33:43.400 --> 0:33:47.400 phone and um, so we would run into these little villages, 0:33:47.600 --> 0:33:49.480 you know, in the in the middle of the desert, 0:33:49.600 --> 0:33:52.959 and they don't know where coming. Every kid in the 0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:56.000 village comes out and ah, you know, half of them. 0:33:56.000 --> 0:33:58.080 Of course, I always laugh. They all have a you 0:33:58.120 --> 0:34:01.280 know Chicago Bulls or are of Jordan's T shirt on, 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:04.440 which just cracks me up because you know, they're it's 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:07.120 just everywhere, and you know, but they would just run. 0:34:07.520 --> 0:34:10.080 They would, and I'm talking like from five years to 0:34:10.360 --> 0:34:13.719 twelve years old. They'd run sometimes five or ten kilometers 0:34:13.760 --> 0:34:17.839 out into the desert and they're just happy, just the 0:34:18.040 --> 0:34:22.479 joy that they have of this weird thing of three 0:34:22.480 --> 0:34:25.040 white guys running through their village. And then they just 0:34:25.200 --> 0:34:28.200 like then they just kind of wave and turn around 0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:31.200 and leave. And um, I sort of said this at 0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:33.920 the beginning, But one of the things that strikes me 0:34:34.040 --> 0:34:39.560 is that even well meaning tourists very often um sequester 0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:42.640 themselves in their car, you know, so they'll drive into 0:34:42.680 --> 0:34:45.799 that same village maybe, but they're in a car, which 0:34:45.880 --> 0:34:49.880 separates you from the people. And I always tell people like, 0:34:49.920 --> 0:34:52.080 that's fine to have a car. Realized, not everybody wants 0:34:52.120 --> 0:34:54.719 to run across the desert. But before you get into 0:34:54.800 --> 0:34:58.600 the village like in Africa or South America, get out 0:34:58.600 --> 0:35:00.600 of your car, like a half mile before you get 0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:04.080 into the village and just walk in and notice the difference. 0:35:04.600 --> 0:35:07.160 People don't come at you with their hands out. They 0:35:07.200 --> 0:35:11.040 don't like you know, we're the ones that create the 0:35:11.320 --> 0:35:14.600 sort of dynamic of you know, people coming at us 0:35:14.640 --> 0:35:20.200 and like asking for whatever, um, because we put ourselves 0:35:20.280 --> 0:35:23.680 above them. And and that's been the greatest gift of 0:35:23.719 --> 0:35:27.200 my running life is to be able to just be 0:35:27.360 --> 0:35:32.719 a cultural explorer and to see really remote places on 0:35:32.760 --> 0:35:36.279 the planet that no, you know, you just don't get 0:35:36.320 --> 0:35:40.640 to see. And you know, you have to be willing 0:35:40.760 --> 0:35:45.319 to put yourself into Uh. I certainly spent ten years 0:35:45.320 --> 0:35:50.080 putting myself in really dangerous, bad situations. And to think 0:35:50.080 --> 0:35:52.480 that I wouldn't do that as a sober person would 0:35:52.520 --> 0:35:56.800 be crazy. So well, put be curious, right, be curious 0:35:57.920 --> 0:36:01.080 running across the desert. What are the challenge during the 0:36:01.160 --> 0:36:08.960 day and nighttime of being in a desolate desert? Man? Yeah, many, um, 0:36:09.120 --> 0:36:14.000 logistics were We're so complicated. But I mean we started 0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:17.320 the run and it was a hundred forty fifty degree 0:36:17.400 --> 0:36:21.080 ground temperatures, you know, the ambient temperature probably you know, 0:36:21.120 --> 0:36:23.560 one twenty or so, but like, you know, it was 0:36:23.880 --> 0:36:26.720 it was hot, and you can plan all you want 0:36:26.960 --> 0:36:29.640 on the drawing board, you know, it's like drawing a 0:36:29.719 --> 0:36:33.319 game plan. You drop up a game plan in a game, right, 0:36:33.400 --> 0:36:36.279 and it doesn't really take into account the other team, 0:36:36.360 --> 0:36:40.240 like having the best night of their life. And uh, 0:36:40.280 --> 0:36:43.520 you know the desert. I always say that, especially with Africa. 0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:47.000 You know, Africa makes the rules. And within a week 0:36:47.320 --> 0:36:51.680 of starting that expedition, we had run out of food, 0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:53.600 we run out of water. It's a hundred and fifty 0:36:53.640 --> 0:36:56.560 degree ground. My two teammates both have I v s 0:36:56.719 --> 0:37:00.719 every day and we've covered about half the distance we 0:37:00.800 --> 0:37:04.160 need to. And this is an expensive project, you know, 0:37:04.320 --> 0:37:07.520 we there's a lot of money invested, and I was 0:37:07.560 --> 0:37:10.360 worried the producers were going to pull the plog quite frankly, 0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:16.080 because we were not doing well at this point. And interestingly, 0:37:16.239 --> 0:37:18.960 what I recognized at that point, I wasn't even thinking 0:37:19.000 --> 0:37:23.959 about this, but um, I was going about it all wrong. Right. 0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:26.880 I was the expedition leader and this was my project, 0:37:27.040 --> 0:37:30.080 but I was so I felt so much pressure to 0:37:30.160 --> 0:37:34.360 be successful, and success meant getting to the other side 0:37:34.360 --> 0:37:37.520 of the desert. I was so focused on that that 0:37:37.600 --> 0:37:40.880 I forgot the lessons I had learned in sobriety. And 0:37:40.960 --> 0:37:45.279 by this time I was fifteen years sober. And that 0:37:45.400 --> 0:37:48.680 lesson is quite simply, you know, the mantra, the one 0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:51.000 day at a time mantra that we all know. But 0:37:51.239 --> 0:37:53.480 the point is, the only miles that I could actually 0:37:53.560 --> 0:37:55.920 run were the ones right in front of me. And 0:37:55.960 --> 0:37:59.839 I needed to stop worrying about the next country, than 0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:03.600 next day, the next week, and focus on what was 0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:07.560 happening right now. And I woke up like on day eight, 0:38:07.840 --> 0:38:11.160 and all I thought about was running a marathon before lunch, 0:38:11.880 --> 0:38:13.799 and I took a little break, and then I got 0:38:13.920 --> 0:38:16.040 up and all I thought about was running a second 0:38:16.080 --> 0:38:20.200 marathon before dinner. And at the end of that second marathon, 0:38:20.239 --> 0:38:23.080 I put my little thin foam matt down on the 0:38:23.160 --> 0:38:26.160 desert and I laid there and I stared up at 0:38:26.160 --> 0:38:29.840 a billion stars because there there wasn't a single electric 0:38:29.960 --> 0:38:33.640 light within five hundred miles, and and I just gave 0:38:33.719 --> 0:38:38.680 thanks to the universe for giving me the opportunity to 0:38:38.719 --> 0:38:43.680 be alive and suffering. And in that one day at 0:38:43.719 --> 0:38:47.960 a time, you know way, we started to make progress 0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:51.840 and we made our way across the desert and it 0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:54.120 you know, and again it was an experience that changed 0:38:54.160 --> 0:38:58.240 my life. But the metaphors are pretty much they're endless 0:38:58.280 --> 0:39:02.839 because the idea of just focusing, the idea of like 0:39:02.880 --> 0:39:05.200 I had a plan every day Rex I was a leader. 0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:07.000 I get up at four o'clock and I would write 0:39:07.000 --> 0:39:09.120 my plan and my little book. We're gonna go to 0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:11.799 this village. We're gonna cover this many miles. We're gonna 0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:14.640 do this. I went back at the end of the expedition. 0:39:15.840 --> 0:39:18.279 Out of a hundred and eleven days, I think like 0:39:18.360 --> 0:39:22.040 on five days it went exactly as I wrote it down. 0:39:22.800 --> 0:39:25.640 On the other hundred and six it went from like 0:39:25.680 --> 0:39:29.719 a little bit wrong to completely go into hell. But 0:39:30.800 --> 0:39:33.920 we made it. And it is that. It's that idea 0:39:34.000 --> 0:39:39.040 of continuous forward motion. If you just keep moving and 0:39:39.200 --> 0:39:43.439 use the experience that you've had in life, people quit marathons. 0:39:43.520 --> 0:39:48.360 I love this example. We always hear about hitting the wall, right, Well, 0:39:48.440 --> 0:39:52.279 the same is true in addiction recovery or in and 0:39:52.440 --> 0:39:55.200 I know you relate to all of this. When we 0:39:55.320 --> 0:39:58.759 hit a real low spot, our mind tells us that 0:39:58.840 --> 0:40:02.800 we're gonna feel this badly for the rest of our lives. 0:40:03.680 --> 0:40:05.880 You know, you have a big argument with your spouse 0:40:05.920 --> 0:40:08.360 and it's like, well, this relationship is gonna feel just 0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:11.640 like this forever, or or we want to have a 0:40:11.719 --> 0:40:14.759 drink or do a dry or whatever like that. In 0:40:14.800 --> 0:40:18.000 that moment, that's what we want. And it's because you know, 0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:21.839 life is at a low point right now and it's 0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:25.600 always going to be this way. But experience tells us 0:40:25.600 --> 0:40:29.120 if we just let that pass by, the next day 0:40:29.160 --> 0:40:31.640 will wake up and and you know, all the problems 0:40:31.640 --> 0:40:35.120 won't be gone, but the perspective will be different. Yes, yes, 0:40:35.200 --> 0:40:42.200 trust the process. One man couldn't quite fathom Charlie's success. 0:40:42.760 --> 0:40:45.200 Robert Nordlander is an agent at the I R S 0:40:45.239 --> 0:40:48.200 who has what some folks think is a peculiar way 0:40:48.239 --> 0:40:51.200 of choosing his targets. The New York Times reports that 0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:53.760 Norlander told a grand jury that if he sees someone 0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:57.120 driving a fancy car, he might check into their finances 0:40:57.239 --> 0:40:59.480 to see if they can really afford it, even if 0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:02.120 there's no but it's that they can't. The Times also 0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:04.680 reported that no Orlander testified to the grand jury that 0:41:04.760 --> 0:41:07.640 he just couldn't figure out how a guy like Charlie 0:41:07.640 --> 0:41:11.960 Angel could possibly afford to train for running across continents. 0:41:13.880 --> 0:41:16.440 You know, this is charges. So we need to talk 0:41:16.480 --> 0:41:19.120 about your indiscretions that you did go to prison for. 0:41:19.320 --> 0:41:23.080 Tell me about how you found yourself under investigation and 0:41:23.080 --> 0:41:27.440 then ultimately convicted for mortgage fraud. Yeah, what a crazy 0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:30.080 I mean, I I still am. I still say that 0:41:30.160 --> 0:41:32.440 to you, and I feel I feel bad even asking 0:41:32.480 --> 0:41:34.799 because I know how. You know, I know how when 0:41:34.800 --> 0:41:38.080 people ask me about, you know, the Apple store, immediately 0:41:38.280 --> 0:41:41.600 I go, God, I can't believe that was me. Well 0:41:41.640 --> 0:41:43.960 when I mean, look, I'm lucky enough, even at my 0:41:44.040 --> 0:41:47.560 age almost fifty nine, to still have sponsors for running 0:41:47.640 --> 0:41:50.600 and things like that. And I have these conversations all 0:41:50.640 --> 0:41:53.360 the time, and I I say to them up front, 0:41:53.440 --> 0:41:55.520 I'm like, look, all I gotta say is if you 0:41:55.560 --> 0:41:58.759 don't know everything about my background, google it. It's on 0:41:58.800 --> 0:42:02.080 my website. You to my website to read all about 0:42:02.160 --> 0:42:05.000 what happened to me, like you read my book, because 0:42:05.000 --> 0:42:07.319 I don't want you to come back to me later 0:42:07.360 --> 0:42:09.640 and say, oh, well, we didn't know this part of 0:42:09.680 --> 0:42:12.880 your background and we can't do business with you somehow. 0:42:13.640 --> 0:42:17.520 But you know, first of all, the irony of going 0:42:17.560 --> 0:42:21.440 through ten years of street level addiction and all of 0:42:21.480 --> 0:42:26.759 the inherently legal things that I did. Um. Now, and 0:42:26.800 --> 0:42:29.239 I'm not implying, I mean, this country puts way too 0:42:29.320 --> 0:42:33.279 many people who have a drug problem in prison when 0:42:33.320 --> 0:42:35.560 they should be going to treatment. That's a subject for 0:42:35.600 --> 0:42:39.800 another day. But um, in my case, I escaped pretty 0:42:39.880 --> 0:42:46.600 much all penalties during my ten years of addiction. And 0:42:46.680 --> 0:42:49.560 so the Sahara put kind of put me on the map. 0:42:49.680 --> 0:42:51.600 You know, I told you I got some good media 0:42:51.680 --> 0:42:54.160 and all of that. And there was I'm living in 0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:57.640 small town North Carolina, and there was one single I R. 0:42:57.800 --> 0:43:02.120 S Agent in my down in North Carolina that saw 0:43:02.200 --> 0:43:06.359 the movie Running the Shara and he was not impressed 0:43:06.640 --> 0:43:10.560 with my running, or with my philanthropy or anything else. 0:43:10.640 --> 0:43:14.799 And on that literally Rex from that alone, he just 0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:18.360 decided he wanted to see how a runner could afford 0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:21.799 to go run across the Sahara Desert. I would say, 0:43:21.840 --> 0:43:24.240 it's weird that apparently he'd never heard of Matt Damon 0:43:24.280 --> 0:43:29.080 because like, I didn't pay for it. But this led 0:43:29.160 --> 0:43:33.680 to him opening an investigation into my taxes and I 0:43:33.800 --> 0:43:37.319 ended up going to trial. Um, he ends up like 0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:42.680 sending in a undercover a good looking woman to come 0:43:42.760 --> 0:43:45.799 knock on my door and she's moving I'm using air 0:43:45.880 --> 0:43:48.960 quotes for people just listening, moving into my building. And 0:43:49.040 --> 0:43:51.600 she wants to know if I'm a runner. And I 0:43:51.680 --> 0:43:54.520 fall for all of this, and because I'm a guy, 0:43:55.120 --> 0:44:01.239 and yeah, stupid and you know, and so um, you 0:44:01.280 --> 0:44:06.160 know all there's dumpster diving, they're tapping phones. It's the 0:44:06.200 --> 0:44:09.000 weirdest thing. And just so people have perspective, this is 0:44:09.040 --> 0:44:14.759 two thousand nine and ultimately two thousand and ten when 0:44:14.800 --> 0:44:18.480 I'm arrested. But all right, so I'm out running errands 0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:21.239 one day in Greensboro, North Carolina, and I come back 0:44:21.280 --> 0:44:22.960 to my condo and I get out of the car 0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:27.040 and like six armed federal agents come rushing towards me, 0:44:28.360 --> 0:44:30.880 and they handcuffed me and they put me in a 0:44:31.480 --> 0:44:34.520 you know, in a police car and take me downtown 0:44:34.640 --> 0:44:37.920 and I spend the night there and I don't actually know. 0:44:38.520 --> 0:44:41.359 I'm not told anything at this point, and this is 0:44:41.360 --> 0:44:44.040 this couldn't be anymore out of the blue. I mean, 0:44:44.080 --> 0:44:48.239 I'm now like nineteen years clean and sober, and and 0:44:48.280 --> 0:44:50.680 the next morning I'm handed a big stack of papers 0:44:50.760 --> 0:44:55.959 and long story short, I am being charged with overstating 0:44:56.080 --> 0:45:00.319 my income on a home loan application and four from 0:45:00.320 --> 0:45:04.399 two from two thousand and five a stated income. I'm 0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:06.880 a borrower. I'm not like a real estate person or 0:45:06.920 --> 0:45:09.040 anything else. I mean I was I've been making enough 0:45:09.080 --> 0:45:11.759 money that every couple of years I'd buy a property, 0:45:12.239 --> 0:45:15.200 fix it up, hold onto it, sell it, just like 0:45:15.520 --> 0:45:19.239 everybody else, and especially in those days, you know, I mean, 0:45:19.239 --> 0:45:22.280 basically the joke was if if you had a pulse, 0:45:22.400 --> 0:45:25.080 you could get a loan. But I become the only 0:45:25.080 --> 0:45:27.359 person in the United States at that point actually being 0:45:27.440 --> 0:45:30.640 charged with overstating my income on a home loan application, 0:45:30.719 --> 0:45:33.920 and for that I can be sentenced to federal prison 0:45:33.960 --> 0:45:38.439 for twenty years. And this isn't like I'm not here 0:45:38.480 --> 0:45:40.880 to like try to bash the Feds or whatever, But 0:45:41.000 --> 0:45:42.840 you know, the fact of the matter is they pretty 0:45:42.920 --> 0:45:46.399 much only charge people that they are certain they can win. 0:45:47.640 --> 0:45:50.000 You know, they have a ninety nine point six percent 0:45:50.120 --> 0:45:54.720 success rate with prosecutions, and about eight percent of people 0:45:54.760 --> 0:45:57.560 take plea deals. And to be honest, I wasn't. I 0:45:57.600 --> 0:46:00.840 just wasn't gonna take one because I sound like a 0:46:00.920 --> 0:46:04.239 weird broken record for guys that go to prison, But 0:46:04.360 --> 0:46:07.960 I didn't do what I was being accused of. I 0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:12.440 end up being found not guilty of providing false information 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:15.400 on loan application because I didn't do it. The I 0:46:15.480 --> 0:46:19.920 had a mortgage broker who falsified a loan application. He 0:46:20.000 --> 0:46:23.279 admitted it trial, he signed my name to it, right. 0:46:23.680 --> 0:46:27.320 But I, and this is where I do take uh 0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:32.320 full credit. You know, I signed the closing package and 0:46:33.000 --> 0:46:36.400 I put it in the mail, and whether it had 0:46:36.440 --> 0:46:39.320 false information that I knew about or not really didn't 0:46:39.360 --> 0:46:43.480 matter anymore. And I at that point took ownership, if 0:46:43.520 --> 0:46:47.320 you will, of everything within that packet, and that became 0:46:47.400 --> 0:46:51.200 mail fraud. And I was found guilty of mail fraud, 0:46:51.320 --> 0:46:55.600 bank fraud, wire fraud, basically mortgage fraud for that reason, 0:46:55.920 --> 0:47:00.640 and sentenced to twenty one months in federal prison in Beckley, 0:47:00.640 --> 0:47:06.239 West Virginia. And my kids, my teenage sons, dropped me 0:47:06.360 --> 0:47:10.600 off on Valentine's Day two thousand eleven at the front 0:47:10.719 --> 0:47:15.120 gate of Beckley Federal Correctional Institute to start serving a 0:47:15.200 --> 0:47:19.200 twenty one month sentence in federal prison. How did you 0:47:19.280 --> 0:47:21.680 handle being in prison and how did your family? How 0:47:21.680 --> 0:47:24.680 did your kids handle it? It was it was terrible. 0:47:24.880 --> 0:47:26.960 I mean, I you know, and the worst part of 0:47:26.960 --> 0:47:31.120 it was the limbo that I was in because once 0:47:31.160 --> 0:47:34.800 I was charged, you know, and again you you can relate, 0:47:34.880 --> 0:47:37.040 and some of your other guests can relate. You know, 0:47:37.800 --> 0:47:40.400 once your charge, your life is pretty much on hold 0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:45.120 until there's resolution. And you know, so for me, that 0:47:45.239 --> 0:47:48.280 was over a year process where I couldn't really work. 0:47:48.560 --> 0:47:52.360 I couldn't like, you know, I couldn't do anything, it 0:47:52.440 --> 0:47:55.359 felt like. And of course my both my boys are 0:47:55.400 --> 0:47:58.839 struggling at this point, you know, as teenage boys, and 0:47:59.239 --> 0:48:01.440 I'm not married to her mom anymore at that point, 0:48:01.640 --> 0:48:05.000 and and it was hard. But you know, I'll never 0:48:05.080 --> 0:48:10.239 forget walking into that prison. You'll appreciate this, it said 0:48:10.280 --> 0:48:12.120 the book. We have to read the book or listen 0:48:12.160 --> 0:48:14.239 to it. But the first guy that I meet when 0:48:14.280 --> 0:48:17.280 I get in as a guy, everybody's got a nickname 0:48:17.280 --> 0:48:20.160 in prison. And first guy I meet his pick and Roll. 0:48:20.800 --> 0:48:26.160 I'm not kidding you, that's his name. And so Picking 0:48:26.280 --> 0:48:28.880 Roll looks at me and he's like, he's like, hey, 0:48:29.040 --> 0:48:31.160 you know, and he's an inmate obviously, and so've I've 0:48:31.160 --> 0:48:33.520 gone through the processing and so now I'm in the 0:48:33.600 --> 0:48:36.480 prison and and he's like, how long you here? For 0:48:37.080 --> 0:48:40.040 I'm like twenty one months. Man. He's like, shit, that 0:48:40.080 --> 0:48:43.040 ain't even long enough to unpack your clothes, you know, 0:48:43.880 --> 0:48:46.080 because so many of these guys are in there for 0:48:46.120 --> 0:48:49.520 so long. And and look, I was scared. I was scared. 0:48:49.800 --> 0:48:56.319 I was sad, and I was really piste off. And 0:48:56.320 --> 0:48:58.799 you know what, the Rex. It only took a few 0:48:58.840 --> 0:49:01.880 days to realize that I wasn't going to I was 0:49:01.920 --> 0:49:04.160 piste off about, you know. And again I'm using air 0:49:04.239 --> 0:49:08.160 quotes what had been done to me, right, And it 0:49:08.239 --> 0:49:10.960 took a matter of maybe two or three days to 0:49:11.040 --> 0:49:14.160 gain perspective. Number One, I figured out I wasn't going 0:49:14.239 --> 0:49:19.520 to survive this time in prison with that anger and bitterness. 0:49:19.680 --> 0:49:23.319 It was gonna kill me. Number two. The first guy 0:49:24.000 --> 0:49:25.879 after Pick and Roll that I met was a guy 0:49:25.880 --> 0:49:28.719 in the cell next to me, and he's in his 0:49:28.840 --> 0:49:32.520 early sixties, he's black, and he got a twenty five 0:49:32.719 --> 0:49:37.239 year sentence for a single graham of crack cocaine. Oh 0:49:37.280 --> 0:49:40.160 my god, and he's on like year twenty three when 0:49:40.200 --> 0:49:44.120 I meet him. He had had his entire life taken away. 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:48.400 And I'm focused on you know, I mean, we're selfish 0:49:48.440 --> 0:49:50.680 by nature, all of us, but I'm focused on what 0:49:50.760 --> 0:49:54.360 has happened to me, and I immediately get slapped in 0:49:54.400 --> 0:50:01.880 the face by the reality of real unfairness, and you know, 0:50:01.960 --> 0:50:04.600 and it it allowed me to sort of settle down 0:50:05.320 --> 0:50:09.840 and recognize that, in the weirdest way, I was the 0:50:09.920 --> 0:50:14.960 most well prepared person for prison every No, really, I 0:50:15.040 --> 0:50:17.840 was just thinking the same. Ten years on the street 0:50:18.000 --> 0:50:22.080 and nineteen years clean and sober. I recognized that I 0:50:22.120 --> 0:50:24.800 could do this and that in fact, it was gonna 0:50:24.840 --> 0:50:30.719 be learning and just human experience. And I'm sure this 0:50:30.760 --> 0:50:32.560 will get into it, but how did you become a 0:50:32.640 --> 0:50:36.640 motivational force for other inmates to overcome addiction while you 0:50:36.680 --> 0:50:39.840 were there? Yeah? You know it is. Yeah, it's attraction 0:50:39.960 --> 0:50:42.120 rather than promotion. Again, because I do I do like 0:50:42.200 --> 0:50:43.920 to make the joke that I didn't all of a 0:50:44.000 --> 0:50:46.840 sudden say you know, hey, dude, you look like you 0:50:46.840 --> 0:50:49.440 could lose some weight, why don't you work out with me? 0:50:50.120 --> 0:50:55.239 It's it's not a good strategy for prison, not in prison. Um, 0:50:55.320 --> 0:50:58.239 But you know what I really did, Rex, was I 0:50:58.280 --> 0:51:00.520 just started doing what I always had on and that 0:51:00.640 --> 0:51:03.399 is that I started to run, you know. And and 0:51:03.840 --> 0:51:06.680 they're about five guys in this prison, and it is 0:51:06.719 --> 0:51:11.239 a low security facility in Beckley, West Virginia, and the 0:51:11.320 --> 0:51:16.080 vast majority were non violent drug offenders, you know. And 0:51:16.080 --> 0:51:18.160 and that's the way our country is. In the federal system, 0:51:18.160 --> 0:51:20.920 in particularly, got over eighty percent of people in prison 0:51:20.960 --> 0:51:25.560 for non violent drug offenses. And the irony is, there's 0:51:25.719 --> 0:51:29.600 no in the federal system. There is no A A, 0:51:29.840 --> 0:51:33.000 there's no n A, there's no there's no that's insane. 0:51:33.360 --> 0:51:36.239 There's no kind of recovery program. You can get a 0:51:36.320 --> 0:51:40.720 twenty year sentence for a drug charge and never get 0:51:40.800 --> 0:51:44.919 treated for your drug problem while you're in there. What 0:51:44.960 --> 0:51:47.759 you will get is near the end of your sentence, 0:51:47.840 --> 0:51:53.200 you get what's called drug education, which if you take 0:51:53.239 --> 0:51:55.840 the class, it will give you like six months off 0:51:55.880 --> 0:51:59.200 of your sentence potentially. But the class is basically this, 0:52:00.800 --> 0:52:06.040 you suck your leech on society and your family, don't 0:52:06.080 --> 0:52:09.799 do drugs like That's what the whole course boils down to. 0:52:10.920 --> 0:52:14.560 And it's so insane. And so I actually did. I 0:52:14.560 --> 0:52:17.880 I did start teaching addiction recovery classes while I was 0:52:17.920 --> 0:52:20.880 in prison, but they were actually health classes that I 0:52:21.000 --> 0:52:25.400 changed the curriculum and I started I turned him into 0:52:25.440 --> 0:52:31.319 basically what amounted to informal AA meetings, and you know, 0:52:31.400 --> 0:52:33.439 and I and I started to run every day and 0:52:34.160 --> 0:52:36.800 people made fun of me. And this is this is funny. 0:52:36.800 --> 0:52:39.440 I mean, I was a middle aged white guy still am, 0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:42.600 and you know, people made fun of me. Like the 0:52:42.640 --> 0:52:44.480 most dubious choice I ever made in there as I 0:52:44.520 --> 0:52:46.840 started doing yoga a couple of days a week on 0:52:46.880 --> 0:52:50.880 the softball field by myself. And for any of the 0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:56.520 list there's no for any listeners who are are thinking 0:52:56.520 --> 0:53:00.279 about going to federal prison, I do not recommend doing 0:53:00.400 --> 0:53:05.960 yoga by yourself. But um, but anyway, here's what happened. 0:53:06.520 --> 0:53:08.640 You know, after a couple of months of my running. 0:53:09.239 --> 0:53:11.759 And I'll never forget that the day it happened. But 0:53:12.200 --> 0:53:16.600 this guy, Kenny Squirrel was actually his name. He yells 0:53:16.640 --> 0:53:19.640 out across the wreck yard. He's like, hey, running man, 0:53:19.760 --> 0:53:22.480 you're gonna come in for lunch, and like that is 0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:26.640 where the sort of the Monica running Man came from. 0:53:26.719 --> 0:53:28.960 But slowly, but surely, guys started to come up to 0:53:29.040 --> 0:53:34.160 me in you know, the cafeteria line or whatever and 0:53:34.360 --> 0:53:38.120 asked me if I would teach basically teach them to run. 0:53:39.160 --> 0:53:42.720 And you know, these are guys from all walks of life. 0:53:42.960 --> 0:53:46.120 West Virginia is probably fifty fifty black and white in 0:53:46.160 --> 0:53:49.359 this prison. And you know, all the white guys were 0:53:49.480 --> 0:53:54.000 meth heads and all the black guys were businessman. And 0:53:54.600 --> 0:53:56.880 I say that tongue in cheek, but I actually mean it. 0:53:57.160 --> 0:54:00.960 Most of the black guys were dealers and not users. 0:54:01.000 --> 0:54:04.840 Most of the white guys were actual addicts. Um. But 0:54:04.880 --> 0:54:06.640 guys started to come up to me and just say, 0:54:06.880 --> 0:54:09.520 and you know, when I got to Beckley, there were 0:54:09.520 --> 0:54:13.040 maybe three guys running every day on a regular basis. 0:54:13.160 --> 0:54:15.879 And when I left a year and a half later, 0:54:16.239 --> 0:54:18.640 I had a running group of fifty guys and I 0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:22.279 I run it with me every single day and I 0:54:22.360 --> 0:54:26.440 had um maybe ten or twelve of them lost more 0:54:26.480 --> 0:54:30.640 than a hundred pounds um. By when I left, I 0:54:30.680 --> 0:54:33.480 had twenty five guys doing yoga with me on this 0:54:33.560 --> 0:54:36.319 off fall field three days a week. You know. And 0:54:36.360 --> 0:54:39.439 it wasn't because I ever promoted what I was doing. 0:54:39.520 --> 0:54:42.640 It's just because I did it. And these guys started 0:54:42.680 --> 0:54:45.560 to see, I mean, my life was just I mean, 0:54:45.560 --> 0:54:47.120 I don't want to say it was better. We're all 0:54:47.160 --> 0:54:49.759 in the same place. And I had some haters. I 0:54:49.800 --> 0:54:54.480 had some uh, you know, I was a white collar again. 0:54:54.520 --> 0:54:58.960 Air quotes guy in a in prison, and there is 0:54:59.080 --> 0:55:02.720 a weird stigma that goes along with that. My biggest 0:55:02.760 --> 0:55:04.680 concern was, like, what kind of tattoo am I going 0:55:04.719 --> 0:55:07.600 to get in prison? You know, what is it? What 0:55:07.640 --> 0:55:09.719 do you get for mortgage fraud? Like an like an 0:55:09.719 --> 0:55:11.920 ink pen? I thought about getting a fountain pen on 0:55:12.000 --> 0:55:18.600 my arm. There we go. I could have put M 0:55:18.920 --> 0:55:28.040 M effort, M effort mortgage froud start. Charlie Angle truly 0:55:28.120 --> 0:55:31.040 is an inspiration to me. If he can pull himself 0:55:31.120 --> 0:55:33.680 up from the literal gutter with a bullet ridden car 0:55:33.760 --> 0:55:36.360 and a crack pipe to becoming an advocate for change 0:55:36.400 --> 0:55:39.880 at the top of his profession, then almost anyone can too. 0:55:40.960 --> 0:55:43.080 What strikes me about Charlie is that he owns his 0:55:43.160 --> 0:55:46.360 messy story instead of running from it. I'd imagine that 0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:50.120 trotting mile after mile after mile gives a person plenty 0:55:50.120 --> 0:55:52.680 of time to think about the good, the bad, and 0:55:52.760 --> 0:55:56.600 the ugly transgressions in their life. For those in recovery, 0:55:56.840 --> 0:55:59.840 attacking the road ahead is the best forward momentum some 0:56:00.000 --> 0:56:06.439 one can achieve one day at a time. What would 0:56:06.480 --> 0:56:09.920 you say to someone who knows that running and exercise 0:56:09.960 --> 0:56:13.120 would benefit their lives, but just can't get over the 0:56:13.200 --> 0:56:16.200 mental hurdles. You know, it's such a great question. I 0:56:16.480 --> 0:56:18.840 actually think about it all the time. And I have 0:56:20.160 --> 0:56:23.759 just recently been asked to be depox. Chopra and I 0:56:23.800 --> 0:56:27.080 became friends years ago, and so I am now. It 0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:29.200 hasn't even been announced publicly, so this will be the 0:56:29.239 --> 0:56:33.040 first time I've actually said it out loud. I'm in public, 0:56:33.080 --> 0:56:37.400 but I am now the ambassador for the Chopper Foundation 0:56:37.480 --> 0:56:42.600 for Addiction and Recovery, And thank you. It's a big deal. 0:56:42.640 --> 0:56:46.280 Of it's a big deal for me because it's uh. 0:56:46.920 --> 0:56:49.000 Part of the reason I gave you that answer is 0:56:49.080 --> 0:56:54.880 that my mission in a way is relies on this mantra, 0:56:55.080 --> 0:56:57.120 and that is that if you don't feel good, you 0:56:57.160 --> 0:57:00.800 can't get well. You know, it's about mentally, just getting 0:57:00.800 --> 0:57:04.160 it through your head that if I do this every day, 0:57:04.400 --> 0:57:08.520 you know, it really will get easier. And also the 0:57:09.960 --> 0:57:12.040 you know, look, I have a son who's almost four 0:57:12.120 --> 0:57:15.719 years clean and sober, and you know, again, genetics play 0:57:15.760 --> 0:57:18.280 a role, and I tell him, I tell both my 0:57:18.320 --> 0:57:21.960 sons all the time. You know, never quit at a 0:57:22.000 --> 0:57:24.680 low point, never quit anything at a don't quit a 0:57:24.720 --> 0:57:29.480 relationship or a job or sobriety or anything else, because 0:57:29.520 --> 0:57:33.760 those those low moments aren't real, like they will pass 0:57:33.840 --> 0:57:38.360 if we just let them pass. And I think physical exercise, 0:57:38.400 --> 0:57:41.640 you know, exercises that way people People go for their 0:57:41.680 --> 0:57:44.120 first run in five years and they feel like shit. 0:57:44.320 --> 0:57:47.800 Well no kidding, but you're not gonna feel that way 0:57:47.920 --> 0:57:51.000 all the time. You just have to keep doing it. Terrific, 0:57:51.240 --> 0:57:55.040 terrific advice. Hey, so tell me this, what are you 0:57:55.120 --> 0:57:58.520 up to today, Charlie? Uh, where are you and how 0:57:58.520 --> 0:58:00.880 do you handle the pandemic? Assume you were just out 0:58:00.920 --> 0:58:04.280 running every day? Yeah, you know that. I mean. So, 0:58:04.360 --> 0:58:06.840 I'm I'm back in Durham. I've lived all over the country, 0:58:06.840 --> 0:58:08.960 but I got married again about eight years ago to 0:58:09.280 --> 0:58:14.280 just an amazing woman and and in full disclosure, um, 0:58:14.320 --> 0:58:17.680 she is battling a really serious cancer and has been 0:58:17.760 --> 0:58:21.040 for a while. So we're you know, my world has 0:58:21.080 --> 0:58:25.360 been a little small, even even apart from COVID. We're 0:58:25.400 --> 0:58:28.760 also sorry, but thank you, thank you, But again, you 0:58:28.800 --> 0:58:32.200 know what, I get to show up for this every 0:58:32.240 --> 0:58:37.280 single day and to be um, a supporter, a caretaker, 0:58:37.800 --> 0:58:40.040 all the things that I need to be and would 0:58:40.080 --> 0:58:43.840 be incapable of being if I was still you know, 0:58:44.080 --> 0:58:50.200 using and get to You just said, I get to be. Yeah, 0:58:50.520 --> 0:58:53.760 it's not a burden, it's a gift. And I would 0:58:53.760 --> 0:58:55.760 take it away from her in a second, you know, 0:58:55.840 --> 0:58:58.040 the cancer. But I you know, I I get to 0:58:58.080 --> 0:59:00.400 be fully present. I don't go high, either in a 0:59:00.480 --> 0:59:04.160 bottle or a pill, and you know, and I'm able 0:59:04.240 --> 0:59:07.800 to just be here and be present. And you know, 0:59:07.920 --> 0:59:12.080 covid is UM. She can't get vaccinated, so it's complicated. 0:59:12.120 --> 0:59:15.040 I'm vaccinated, but I have to be really careful about 0:59:15.840 --> 0:59:19.440 where I go and what I do and UM. I 0:59:19.480 --> 0:59:22.880 am working on another book because you know, I I 0:59:22.920 --> 0:59:26.120 think there's a I sort of touched on it earlier, 0:59:26.160 --> 0:59:30.160 but I think that people in early recovery, when you 0:59:30.200 --> 0:59:33.840 go into addiction recovery, there should be more focus not 0:59:34.240 --> 0:59:36.760 you know, there's a time for talk therapy and it's 0:59:36.920 --> 0:59:41.360 very important in the process, but physical health needs to 0:59:41.400 --> 0:59:44.520 be put first. And I said it earlier. If you 0:59:44.520 --> 0:59:47.480 don't feel good, you can't get well. And so I'm 0:59:47.520 --> 0:59:50.760 really working on a book through my own experience that 0:59:50.920 --> 0:59:56.520 will lay out the case for really focusing on physical health. 0:59:56.920 --> 0:59:59.680 I'm also vegan, have been for more than twenty years. 0:59:59.720 --> 1:00:02.120 You know, I'm not a preacher on these things, but 1:00:02.240 --> 1:00:04.480 it is, you know, it's the way I've chosen to 1:00:04.560 --> 1:00:08.960 live and um, and it's made things good. You know. 1:00:09.040 --> 1:00:13.120 I'm I celebrate my sobriety every year by running the 1:00:13.200 --> 1:00:16.480 same number of hours to match the years that I've 1:00:16.520 --> 1:00:19.960 been sober. So this year, later this month will be 1:00:20.440 --> 1:00:24.360 you know, twenty nine hours of running. And you know 1:00:24.480 --> 1:00:28.240 that's my kind of party these days. UM, if you 1:00:28.320 --> 1:00:30.320 just put yourself out there and you tell the truth, 1:00:30.680 --> 1:00:37.440 opportunities the right opportunities present themselves. UM. I'm heading to uh. 1:00:37.480 --> 1:00:40.200 I am actually heading at the end of this month July. 1:00:40.560 --> 1:00:42.520 I'm getting a chance to go down to neck Or 1:00:42.560 --> 1:00:46.640 Island with Richard Branson and a small group and and 1:00:46.720 --> 1:00:49.960 speaking to a bunch of people in the addiction space 1:00:50.400 --> 1:00:55.520 and advocating for some things around the Chopra Foundation. And 1:00:57.160 --> 1:00:59.560 you know, it just is. It's a fun journey. Man. 1:00:59.600 --> 1:01:02.160 I would I wouldn't even take the prison stuff back, 1:01:02.200 --> 1:01:05.240 you know, I got I. I work with the Innocence Project, 1:01:05.640 --> 1:01:08.919 UM from time to time for you. UM, I'm sure 1:01:08.960 --> 1:01:11.080 you know those guys or know who they are, a 1:01:11.120 --> 1:01:13.400 great friend of mine. Jason flam is one of the 1:01:13.440 --> 1:01:17.520 founding board members. He has a great podcast um about 1:01:17.600 --> 1:01:21.920 wrongful incarceration, you know, and getting people out and and 1:01:22.120 --> 1:01:24.400 I think it all comes back down to where we started. 1:01:24.560 --> 1:01:28.040 It's service based. And the thing I say to myself 1:01:28.080 --> 1:01:30.919 and I remind others service makes you sound like you're 1:01:30.920 --> 1:01:34.320 being some generous Uh. You know, I don't know goody 1:01:34.400 --> 1:01:37.920 two shoes almost. I do it because I recognize that 1:01:37.960 --> 1:01:40.400 if I don't keep doing stuff for other people that 1:01:40.480 --> 1:01:43.400 I put myself, it's a really selfish act. I put 1:01:43.440 --> 1:01:47.120 myself at risk if I don't do those things. Man, 1:01:47.160 --> 1:01:51.240 that's beautiful, it really is. And I'm I'm with you it. 1:01:51.240 --> 1:01:54.160 It makes me feel bad when I think back about 1:01:54.200 --> 1:01:58.040 all the years I spent just as a selfish asshole, 1:01:58.480 --> 1:02:01.320 you know, just only thinking of about me. Wasn't until 1:02:01.360 --> 1:02:03.760 I got in trouble that I thought about how it 1:02:03.840 --> 1:02:08.240 was affecting everybody else. I mean, and uh, just that perspective. 1:02:08.280 --> 1:02:10.840 Thanks Charlie, Thanks for being here with me today on 1:02:11.080 --> 1:02:16.160 charges your story and your effort or inspiring and as 1:02:16.240 --> 1:02:19.240 someone else who's in recovery, you know, I want you 1:02:19.320 --> 1:02:21.520 to know my door is always open if you ever 1:02:21.560 --> 1:02:24.360 need anything. You're the man, Charlie. Thank you so much. 1:02:24.520 --> 1:02:27.520 Same here, brother, And it was I can't tell you 1:02:27.560 --> 1:02:30.040 how excited that was to be here. And it was, 1:02:30.800 --> 1:02:34.680 You're really good at this. You should keep going. It's 1:02:34.760 --> 1:02:38.040 not me, it's the guests. You guys, come on here, dude. 1:02:38.080 --> 1:02:40.120 I've done a lot, I've done a lot of podcasts. 1:02:40.280 --> 1:02:42.960 I can assure you you're being You're I appreciate your 1:02:43.000 --> 1:02:46.600 humility you but it's you know, doing these kind of 1:02:46.640 --> 1:02:50.400 things is uh, it's another gift, you know, of experience 1:02:50.520 --> 1:02:54.919 and being able to just have a conversation and it's it's, uh, 1:02:54.960 --> 1:02:58.080 You've got a really good platform here and I look 1:02:58.120 --> 1:03:02.760 forward to, you know, spreading the word. Thanks buddy, Thanks Pal, 1:03:02.840 --> 1:03:08.240 thanks for coming on My pleasure. 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