1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A body turns up in 2 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: the San Diego Bay is part of a very long 3 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: mystery Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, A big mystery. Tonight 4 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: in the waters of San Diego Bay, police found a 5 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: woman's body on the shore of the Liberty Station Channel. 6 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: NBC seven's Dave Summers is there with what might make 7 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: this investigation quite challenging? Dave, Yeah, Well, and the channel 8 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: runs along NTC Park mark in Catherine. It's a popular 9 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: spot to walk your dog, cycle, play soccer, just about 10 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: anything outdoors. But San Diego police were hold here on 11 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: a grizzly aaron. A woman's body was found in the 12 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: water behind me. Guys, the area where this body is found, 13 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: San Diego Bay is vast. Can you imagine a jogger 14 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: or someone walking their dogs suddenly seeing a body turn up? 15 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: With me an all star panel to help dissect what 16 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: we know. Matthew Mangino, attorney, former District attorney, author of 17 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: The Executioner's Toll. Doctor Michael B. Donner, psychoanalyst, clinical forensics psychologist, 18 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: and authoroff Tearing the Child Apart, and you can find 19 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: him at Michael B. Donner dot com. Karen Smith, forensics 20 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: expert host of Shattershol's podcast, and you can find her 21 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: a bear Bones Forensic dot Com deputy medical examiner. I 22 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: believe that's Deputy Chief Medical Examiner for Travis County, Texas. 23 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: That's Austin doctor Kendall Crowns. But first to crime online 24 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: dot Com investigator Levi Page, LEVI, hold on one moment, 25 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: you were just sharing our friend Dave Summers at NBC 26 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: seven in San Diego, take a listen again. San Diego 27 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: Police and Harbor Police began investigating just after four o'clock today. 28 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: Busy time here with plenty of park visitors because of 29 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: the slope of the bank, though the woman's body was 30 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: not easily seen. Now, homicide detectives were not summoned, but 31 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: that shouldn't rule out the possibility of foul play just yet. 32 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: An investigator on scene tells a NBC seven the woman's 33 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: body was badly decomposed, that she had been dead for 34 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: some time, and identifying the cause of death and her 35 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: identity could be challenging. Straight out to Deputy Chief and 36 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: medical Examiner in Travis County, Texas, is doctor Kendall Crowns. 37 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns, when a body has been into water for 38 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: let's just say a week. Let's start with the day 39 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: versus a week, versus a month versus a year, what 40 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: happens to the body. As far as figuring out who 41 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: it is the bodies in the water, you're going to 42 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: get decomposition rates that are a little altered depending on 43 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: the temperature of the water. It's the water's colder, it'll 44 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: slow the decomposition down. If it's warmer, it will speed 45 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,559 Speaker 1: it up. But the other thing you get is scavaging 46 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: by the aquatic creatures like turtles and fish and things 47 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: of that nature. So you can still determine what the 48 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: entries were if enough of the bodies left intact, but 49 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: you will see significant scavaging and increased decomposition rates, especially 50 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: in warm water. You know, this bay is around twelve 51 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: miles long and three miles wide at certain locations. That's 52 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: a very very tough let me just say, I want 53 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: to call it terrain. But circumstances under which to search 54 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: or is there another victim? Is there a child victim? 55 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: Are there items in the water that could identify this woman? 56 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: Straight back to levipage crime online dot Com investigative reporter Levi, 57 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: what do you know about the discovery they could obviously 58 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: tell it was a woman body December seventh, twenty sixteen, 59 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: and that is what appears to be a woman's body 60 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: is found on the shore of San Diego Bay and 61 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: the body has been in a state of decomposing. It 62 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: had been decomposing, and they were unable to identify who 63 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: it was when it washed ashore because it had been decomposing, 64 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: but they could tell it was a woman. To doctor 65 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: Kennel Crowns, how long would it take for the body 66 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: to be so decomposed you can't even tell who it is. Again, 67 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: that would depend on the temperature of the water, but 68 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: it could take several weeks to the point that you 69 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: can't readily identify them, to the point that you would 70 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: have to go with dental records and DNA, especially if 71 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: there's an increased scabbath your activity, it'll quickly obscure people's faces. 72 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: You know, you're putting that very delicately. Thank you, guys. 73 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: We're talking about the se San Diego Bay and a 74 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: body washing up. The first thing they know is that 75 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: it's a woman. That's all they can tell. The body 76 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: is so decomposed. Now, let's think about where we are 77 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: San Diego Bay. It's in a very highly urbanized area 78 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: sex to San Diego, which is the ninth largest city 79 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: in the US, if I'm correct on that. So this 80 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: could be anybody. And another issue to Karen Smith, forensics expert, Karen, 81 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: that's just San Diego. What if the body were a 82 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: dumped somewhere off a bridge and it's not even someone 83 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: missing from San Diego, that really complicates identifying the victim. Yeah, 84 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: it does. I mean two hours from Los Angeles, twelve 85 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: million to one, I mean, yeah, it could be anybody, Nancy, 86 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: And you don't know how this woman's body got in 87 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: the water, you know, was it an accidental death, was 88 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: it a homicide? We don't know. And until the medical 89 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: examiner can hopefully find an evidence of cause and manner 90 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: of the detectives at that point had to make identification 91 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: and then wait for the information. What about currents in 92 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: a bay that bay? We typically think, Karen, of currents 93 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,679 Speaker 1: being in the ocean, but in a bay that big, 94 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: or for instance, in one of the great lakes. I 95 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: remember seeing waves coming in off of a great lake, 96 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: and I can understand how there can be waves in 97 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: a lake, but in a body of water that big, 98 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: you have waves, so we don't even know if that's 99 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: where she was dumped because of the water's motion. That's right. 100 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: I mean the Saint John's River ran right through Jacksonville, 101 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: and believe me, when we would get a large storm, 102 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: that water would wash over the sea walls. It was 103 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,239 Speaker 1: really torrential and really high waves, and that water would 104 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: move very fast. So just because it's a bay, it 105 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: doesn't mean the water's not moving. And sometimes it can 106 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: move very quickly and depending on the current, the direction, 107 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: which way it was going, it can give them to 108 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: some information. But it's still really really difficult to figure 109 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: out where that body entered the water, and you have 110 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: to start from the endpoint where you found it to 111 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: form a prosecutor. Now defense attorney Matthew Mangino, author of 112 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: The Executioner's Toll, The Crimes or As Trials, Appeals, Last Meals, 113 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: Final Awards, and executions forty six persons in the US. 114 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: That's a mouthful, doctor. Excuse me, Matthew Mangino, As a 115 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: an attorney, did you ever as a prosecutor, did you 116 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: ever have to prosecute a jang do where you did 117 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: not know the victim or her identity. Well, yes, I 118 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: mean that's an unfortunate part of the job that you 119 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: deal with, you know, missing persons and persons that you 120 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: can't identify. You know. Here in this case, you know, 121 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: we don't know what we have. We have a woman 122 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: whose body's found in the bay. We don't know if 123 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: her death was accidental, if her death was a side 124 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: or if there's anything, uh, you know, suspicious about her death. 125 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: Certainly it's a tragedy. Certainly, White A minute, White, A 126 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: minute White, a minute, hold on, Matthew Mangino. When you 127 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: find a woman washing up, dead, decomposed, so you can't 128 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: identify her right there, I would say that suspicious. So 129 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: I don't know what you mean by you got to 130 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: figure out if it's suspicious. It's suspicious, Matthew. Oh no, 131 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: there's no question. Are you trying to say you don't 132 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: know if it's a suicide or a homicide, Well, yeah, 133 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: I mean or an accidentally don't know if there's foul play, 134 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: you know, that's that's the fundamental the question here was 135 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: her death, Was it a suicide? Was it accidental that 136 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: she did she fall into the bay, or you know, 137 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: was she murdered. Those those are the three questions that 138 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: have to be reviewed immediately in a decision. May well, 139 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: I agree, But when you said you got to figure 140 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: out if it's suspicious if I find a dead body, 141 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: I'm suspicious. I'm naturally suspicious. I think anybody would be 142 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: suspicious when you find a dead body. But you're right, 143 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: there's only three things suicide, homicide or accident. So yes, 144 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: you got to determine that. And back to you, doctor Kendall. 145 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: Crown's joining us out of Austin with a body this decompose, 146 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: how do you figure out which one of those three 147 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: choices it is? So what you would look if you 148 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: have enough of the body left that you can still 149 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: look for injuries, you would then look at the injuries 150 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: and determined if you felt that they were accidental in 151 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: nature or suicide or homicide. So it would just depend 152 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: on what injuries are found on the body. Let's see, 153 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: if someone who jumped to the water from a ledge, 154 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: you wouldn't necessarily find any injuries, so it would be 155 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: consistent with a drowning, and it could end up being 156 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: determined undetermined if you can't differentiate the injuries. It would 157 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: just depend on the injury pattern as how you would 158 00:09:51,559 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: determine the manner of death of this particular case. Crime 159 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about a 160 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: body that washes up on the shores of the San 161 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: Diego Bay nine or ten miles long, about three miles 162 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: wide at points. That is a huge body of water. 163 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: And as I said earlier, it's next to a very 164 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: highly urbanized area of San Diego. So this woman could 165 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: be anybody. Back to you, doctor Kennel Crowns joining us 166 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: out of Austin. Doctor Crown's question, So you look at 167 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: the body. The body is decomposed. You can't even tell 168 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: who it is. So I guess you're going to have 169 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: to use DNA or you're gonna have to use dental records. 170 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: Which one of those do you do first? So first 171 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: you start with fingerprints. If you can still get a 172 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: fingerprint off above, you will you will use that. Actually, 173 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: you can still get a fingerprint from a lot of 174 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: decomposed bodies. After fingerprints, then you go with a dental 175 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: Which finger do you try first? Doctor? Actually thumb dumb ah, Okay, 176 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: didn't know that. Go ahead, and well, actually the skin 177 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: will be the glove at decompositions, it'll come off like 178 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: a glove and then you can actually put it on 179 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: your own hand and get the fingerprints from that. But 180 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: once the fingerprint option is out, then you go to right, 181 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: what did you just say? So? What did you say? 182 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: So when your skin, when you decompose, your epidermis or 183 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: the upper layer of your skin comes off, and you 184 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: can actually take that upper layer of skin off the 185 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: hand and then put it on your own hand and 186 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: then get fingerprints that way because you can just get 187 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: it from the epidermal layer of the skin. Okay, right there, 188 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: let me just drink that in for a moment. So 189 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: you take the skin off their thumb, you put it 190 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: on your thumb, and then do a finger print. Yeah, 191 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure, are you sure? Well? I have because 192 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 1: I've never heard that in my life, and it's really 193 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: skiving me out. Even I can get skiped out about 194 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: criminal investigations. It is something we do. I have pictures 195 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,719 Speaker 1: which you'd like to see. Yes, as a matter of fact, 196 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: I would, because I'm not sure I'm really buying your 197 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: whole story. But okay, so you start with fingerprints, then 198 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: what do you do next? Dental records or DNA once 199 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: fingerprints are out. Oh and by the way, I do 200 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: know what I'm doing, right, But anyway, once fingerprints are out, 201 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: you move on to dental records. If you have a 202 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: presumptive ID, then you can get the dental records of 203 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: that individual and make comparisons. After that, if they have 204 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: any medical devices, you can use those to look for 205 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:50,359 Speaker 1: serial numbers. And then after you exhaust all those possibilities, 206 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: we move on to DNA, which you can get from 207 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,719 Speaker 1: a tooth or a fragment of bones specifically usually the 208 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: steamer or a rib, and then we'll send those to 209 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: Stay crime lad to DONA matches. A femur is the 210 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: long part of the leg below the knee above the 211 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: knee to me, what's below the name to be Okay, 212 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: So you start with trying to get a fingerprint, then 213 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: you go to dental dental, then you try DNA, which 214 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: can take longer. So if this person doesn't have a 215 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: record and their DNA is not in the DNA database, yeah, 216 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: you have to have a presumptive and they never have 217 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: been to the dentist. You're just up the creek without 218 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: a paddle, right, That's correct. When in those cases, if 219 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 1: we have no idea who they are. It just ends 220 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: up and being they've become unidentified. You know, we're kind 221 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: of talking inside baseball here, but Karen Smith, just to 222 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: continue doing it. Um, have you ever handled a Jane 223 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 1: Doe where you never knew the woman's identity? Yes? Initially, yes, 224 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: and it took some time to get that part, I 225 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: mean all the way through. No. No, I never had 226 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: a murder case where we ever knew the woman's identity. 227 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: That is so hard to crack a case like that 228 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: because hey, you don't know who what her identity is, 229 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: so you don't know her friends, you don't know where 230 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: she was last I'm referring to a woman I found. 231 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: I didn't find her, it was reported then I went there. 232 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: She was dumped out in a field. As she remains 233 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: a Jane Doe to this day. I had to prosecute 234 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: a guy never knew how the who the victim was. Wow, 235 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: it's never very upsetting, Karen, very upsetting. Absolutely, it's heartbreaking 236 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: because you know, the one thing that you want to 237 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: do is return that victim to their family, and you 238 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: can't if you don't know who they are. Guys, we 239 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: were talking about a body that washes up on San 240 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: Diego Bay. Sure back to you levipage Climb online dot 241 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: com investigative reporter, Exactly how was the woman's body found? 242 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: It washed ashore and people called nine one one that 243 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: saw it and feel like joggers or people walking by. Yes, 244 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: and employees came on the scene and discovered this decomposing body. 245 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: We are talking about a woman's body that washes ashore. 246 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: She's a Jane Doe. Doesn't it make you wonder? Is 247 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: there a husband? Is there a family? Are there children 248 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: out there or her mom and dad looking for her? 249 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: Who could she possibly be? Well? We get at least 250 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: one answer in this case. Take a listen to our 251 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: friends at crime online dot com. Elizabeth Sullivan's decomposing body 252 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: was found just a half mile from her home, floating 253 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: in the San Diego Bay. She'd been missing for two years, 254 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: but a former San Diego County Deputy medical examiner who 255 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: helped conduct the autopsy says decomposition made it difficult to 256 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: narrow down her time of death. It also led to 257 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: another conclusion. The medical examiner did not believe that Elizabeth 258 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: had been in the bay for the two years she 259 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: was missing. He said the decomposition would have been more advanced. 260 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: The autopsy showed that Elizabeth's body was decomposing in a 261 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: way that indicated she had lain for some time. On 262 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: one side, Sullivan was identified through dental records by to 263 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: you doctor Kendall Crowns, Deputy Chief Medical examer Joinings of Austin. 264 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Our friends at crime Online just 265 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: gave a really weird twist to this case. What are 266 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: they trying to say? What they're trying to say is 267 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: basically that if she's been missing, if they've identified an 268 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: individual who's been missing for two years, but the body's 269 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: still intact to the point that they're not skelet knize 270 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: a two years floating around of the water, I mean 271 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: they should have been a minimum skelet knize and probably 272 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: not able to be found. And the fact that she 273 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: washed up means that she was pretty intact. So what 274 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: is being said there's not it's incongruous with the amount 275 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: of time she's been missing and the amount of decomposition 276 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: that has seen. There's some intervening factor that either she 277 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: was alive during the time period she was missing, or 278 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: something else has happened that caused her not to be 279 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: composed as much. I don't know how they can tell 280 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: all that from looking at the body, but that is 281 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: what we are that's the information that we're given. We 282 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: are told that the medical examiner that first looks at 283 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: the body does not believe that she has been in 284 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: the water the entire time. So what does that mean? Guys? 285 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: We're trying to figure out who is Elizabeth Sullivan and 286 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: how has the medical examiner come to the decision she 287 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: was not in the water the entire time she's been missing. Obviously, 288 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: they find out information about her. Take a listen. Matthew 289 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth Sullivan meet in Virginia. That's where Elizabeth grew 290 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: up and where Matthew Sullivan was stationed in the Navy. 291 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: In twenty ten. They get married and moved to San 292 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: Diego after Matthew's transferred. The couple have two children, daughters, 293 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: two years apart. Matthew serves eight years in the US 294 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: Navy and is honorably discharged in twenty sixteen with the 295 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: rank of Petty Officer. Now we know who she is, 296 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: so back to you, Lee by Page Crime online dot 297 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter. We now know that she moved around 298 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: with her husband, who has been in the Navy. They 299 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: get married, they moved to San Diego after he Matthew 300 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: gets transferred. They have two children, daughters, two years apart, 301 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: and somewhere between learning that and the day her body 302 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: is discovered, everything seemingly is a big blank Crime Stories 303 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Guys, thank you for being with us 304 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: here at Crime Stories. A body washes ashore at San 305 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: Diego Bay. For a while, she's Jane Doe until somehow, miraculously, 306 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: through methods that have been outlined by Deputy Chief Medical 307 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: Examiner out of Austin doctor Kennel Crown's, we figure out 308 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: her name is elizabe but Sullivan, and somewhere out there 309 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: she's got two daughters and a husband. Let's digest what 310 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: we have just heard to Leavi Page, brand new developments 311 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: in a search for a navy wife Elizabeth Sullivan. According 312 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: to search for Elizabeth go Fummie Page, she was in 313 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: touch with her father every single day and then suddenly 314 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: just seemingly dropped off the map. What do we know, 315 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: Levi Page, Yeah, we know that a friend called police 316 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: and said I haven't heard from her. I'm worried about her. 317 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: She's missing. This search is kicked off, and police say 318 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: that the vehicle that she drives was still at the 319 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: home with the family, but her cell phone was nowhere 320 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: to be found and it was turned off. So immediately 321 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: things were a little bit suspicious. So you're telling me 322 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: that cell phone didn't just go missing, that it was 323 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: turned off. It was turned off, So to Matthew Mangino, 324 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: former prosecutor and now author, Matthew that means either somebody 325 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: turned it off or she turned it off herself. Well, right, 326 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: clue does that give us? Well, it really doesn't give 327 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: us much of a clue other than the fact that 328 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: that we know, um, that she's not having any contact 329 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: with anyone um, you know, and that's unusual. I mean, 330 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, cell phones or something that we rely very 331 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: heavily on and to just have a cell phone go 332 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: dead and not have any further communication on that is 333 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: obviously suspicious. And you know, she hasn't been seen, she 334 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: hasn't no one's heard from her, her cell phone is 335 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: not being used. Those are unusual at unusual conduct for 336 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: for a young woman. Well, we also have evidence of 337 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: behavior or routine to Michael doctor Michael B. Donner, psychoanalyst, 338 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: UM doctor Donner. For instance, they say, here she spoke 339 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: to her father every single day and then suddenly either 340 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: blue that just stopped and she was reported missing. So 341 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: I find that very very strong behavioral evidence. Explain, it's 342 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: very worrisome, Nancy. When somebody has a strong relationship with 343 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: a family member of friend and then disappear, family is 344 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: going to be very worried, and it's a sign of configuring. 345 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: It's sign of considerable concern. You put it so delicately, 346 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: you're quite the master of euphemism. I say, it's a 347 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: sign that something stinks, something has gone horribly wrong. To you, 348 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: Karen L. Smith, forensics expert, I know you deal with 349 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: let me say, physical forensics, blood spatter or fingerprints, fibers, hair, 350 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: all sorts of DNA, But what about behavioral evidence. That's 351 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: part of a police officer's job, Nancy. You know, we 352 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: deal with psychological stuff all the time. We have to 353 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: get into the mind of people and figure out not 354 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: only victimology, but if anything happened, we have to figure 355 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: out what the motivation behind that was. And to me, 356 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: when you have a cell phone that has used every 357 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: single day that all of a sudden is now turned off, 358 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: that starts some kind of a timeline. For me, that's 359 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: what that tells me. It's a start of some kind 360 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 1: of a timeline. You know what's interesting, almost laughable. We 361 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: were not talking about trying to identify a body, and 362 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: when Elizabeth went missing. Behavioral evidence is even proven through animals. 363 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: I know you all remember the Orenthal James O. J. 364 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: Simpson double murder trial where the state actually started their 365 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: timeline the night of the double murder with the quote 366 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: plaintiff well of the dog, the pet belonging to Denise Brown. 367 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: I think the dog's name was Akita. The neighbors had 368 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: never heard that before, and I think it was there 369 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: in Brentwood, had never heard that before, and they all 370 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: knew the dog. The dog got walked, it got taken 371 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: everywhere by Denise and her children, so they knew Akita, 372 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: and when they heard that sound, it was so unusual, 373 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: such odd behavior for the dog. That really began the 374 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: timeline for many legal eagles. The night that Denise Brandon, 375 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: Ron Goldman or were brutally murdered by Simpson, that start 376 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: of the timeline. So if you can count on the 377 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: behavior of a dog, of course, you can count on 378 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: the behavior of a grown woman and mother, and from 379 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: what I'm understanding to leave a page, there were no 380 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: prior indications that she suffered any emotional or mental disturbances. 381 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: Is that correct? You're correct, Nancy. So what about the husband? 382 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: This guy apparently is really taking it hard. Take a 383 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: listen now to Steve helling at people that he's lost 384 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: twenty five pounds, he's you know, not eating, he's not sleeping, 385 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: and for a while he wasn't working, and then he 386 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: finally decided that he would go back to work just 387 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: to give him himself some normalcy and also to give 388 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: some normalcy to their daughters as well well. And we 389 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: mentioned that family members are coming to San Diego, that 390 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: he must be holding out hope along with the rest 391 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: of the family. Yes, everybody's holding out hope. You know, 392 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: it's just it's been a month, so obviously they're putting 393 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: a brave face on it, but everybody's very worried. You know, 394 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: somebody who's gone for a month, a mother of children. 395 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: That's a scary situation. It's so scary. What does he 396 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: say about their daughters? They're so young too, at four 397 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: years old. Did they understand what's going on here? At 398 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: all not exactly. They don't exactly know what's happening, but 399 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: they still are giving them some counseling right now, you know, 400 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: and trying to work through it. They're just confused, they're 401 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: they're little little girls. So that makes this a lot 402 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: more heartrending than it would have been otherwise. Joining us 403 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: is doctor Michael be Donna, or psychoanalyst, and you can 404 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: find him at Michael Dona dot com. These children were 405 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 1: so little a mommy goes missing. What effect does that 406 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: have on them? And we keep hearing as our friends 407 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: Steve hell Are from People magazine said they were confused, 408 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: they didn't know what was going on. How does that 409 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: affect a child to grow up without their mother? Well, 410 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: when young children lose a parent, especially a mother, there 411 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: are going to be some very significant attachment issues. That 412 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: children rely on their mothers for safety and security, for 413 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: psychological stability, and when our mother just disappears, it's going 414 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: to be terrifying for the child because they don't really 415 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: have the capacity to understand what happened. You can't explain 416 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: it to them. They just know that someone that they 417 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: relied on, needed for their physical and emotional needs is 418 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: just gone, like in the blink of an eye. It's 419 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: very distressing and very disturbing and has lifelong effects. I 420 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: was just going to ask you that, how does that 421 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: affect a child as they grow up. Well, it'll have 422 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: an effect on their ability to form relationships and attachments. 423 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 1: Not in every single child, but on many. It'll be 424 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: a challenge for them because they won't feel safe. They 425 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: won't have the same kind of trust and security that 426 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: a loved one will be there for them, so they're 427 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: they're going to tend to be a little bit more suspicious. 428 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 1: Of course, it creates psychological difficulties in childhood and adolescents 429 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: when they're going to be more likely to use substances, 430 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: get into difficult and sometimes even abusive relationships because the 431 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: nature of their internal world has been shaken and the 432 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: world just doesn't feel safe to them anymore. So I guess, 433 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: to put it simply, it haunts them the rest of 434 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: their lives. I've noticed that it seems to affect children 435 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: more when they lose their mother. Why is that in 436 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 1: most families the mother is the what we call the 437 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: primary attachment to figure, the primary caregiver, So the mother 438 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: especially again, this is in most families not all, but 439 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: in most the mother is the person that does the 440 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: majority of the caretaking of children and has the primary 441 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: bond and attachment for the child. The fathers are important 442 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: or the other parents are important too, but they are 443 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: generally sort of more likely to be introducing the child 444 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: to the outside world, where the mother's role is the 445 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: psychological and physical development of the child in the very early, 446 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: most critical stages of well. I understand that those roles 447 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: easily can shift depending on circumstances, But I see what 448 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: you're saying. Time Stories with Nancy Grace. So this woman 449 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Sullivan as a Jane Doe. Then she's identified, and 450 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: then we find out she is a mother, a husband, 451 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,719 Speaker 1: losing down to losing twenty five pounds during the search. 452 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: Take a listen now to CBS eight San Diego. When 453 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,239 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Sullivan went missing in October twenty fourteen, no one 454 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: knew what happened to her. Did she run away or 455 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: was it something worse? Our Missing Persons She Unit did 456 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 1: an extensive investigation trying to find her find out what 457 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: happened with her, with negative results. Nearly two years later, 458 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: on October fourth, twenty sixteen, police found a human body 459 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: in the San Diego Bay. We went out there as 460 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: dead body. It was in a state of decomposition. Through 461 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: obviously forensically, we were able to eventually identify the body 462 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: as that of Elizabeth Sullivan. It was just a few 463 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: blocks from where Sullivan lived and police now suspect foul play. 464 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: We believe she was murdered. And I can't get into 465 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: details on a why belie. We believe that it's an 466 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: important part of our ongoing investigation. You know, it just 467 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: strikes me right there at the beginning to doctor Kendall Crowns, 468 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: and I'm going to ask you. This is the Deputy 469 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: Chief Medical Alexander and joining us from Travis County, Texas Austin. 470 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns, this is beyond your expertise in performing thousands 471 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: of autopsies in your medical degree. But this immediately reminds 472 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: me I've taught mom Casey Anthony, where two year old 473 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: Kelly was found about nine houses down from the Anthony 474 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: family home. It reminds me of the Bonnie Lee Bakeley murder, 475 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: where Bonnie Lee Bakeley, who many believe was murdered by 476 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: movie star Robert Blake, was found right there where Blake 477 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: left her at an Italian restaurant, Votelo's, when he went 478 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: in to go retrieve the gun he lost, and then 479 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: the murder weapon was found in a dumpster a block 480 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: or two away. In other words, convenience for the killer. 481 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: The body here is found very near the family home. 482 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: How often do you see that, doctor Kendall Crown, Oh, yeah, 483 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: it's quite often. Usually when someone arders someone, they don't 484 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: go to a lot of effort to take the body 485 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: somewhere far from their home or to dump it or 486 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: dispose of it. It's very rarely that we see in 487 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: homicides where they'll cut the body up and then distribute 488 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: the pieces all over the place so people can't find 489 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: them are identifying. Its very rare. Usually most murderers are 490 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: fairly lazy, and they either dump the body close to 491 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: where they live or just leave it at the scene. Guys, 492 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: now we realize, as we're trying to find out who 493 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: this woman is, she's been missing for two years, but 494 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: her home is very near the spot or her body 495 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: washes as shure. What does that tell you forensically, Kieran Smith, 496 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: It tells me that, I mean, something happened within that 497 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 1: very confined area, nanthonyam in this, you know it's not 498 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: rocket science. You always look at the people's clothest to 499 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: a victim first. And the fact that she would sound 500 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: so close to home, I mean, as an investigator, to 501 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: her own neighborhood. Yeah, that just leads me right to 502 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: the house as my primary place to start looking for evidence. 503 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: Take a listen to tie or hunt Hey crime Online. 504 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: Investigators conduct a thorough search of the home. Forensic tests 505 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: find Elizabeth Sullivan's blood soaked in the wooden floor in 506 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: her bedroom and in the carpeting. A knife found in 507 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: the attic also has traces of Sullivan's blood. Matthew Sullivan 508 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: says the blood in the carpet is a result of 509 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: Elizabeth's self harming, and that she was also likely the 510 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: one who hid the knife. However, another major clue a 511 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: police could averdog reacts to a spot in the Sullivan 512 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: garage where a refrigerator freezer had stood for several years. 513 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: Did you hear that a refrigerator freezer. It's all starting 514 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: to fit together. How this woman was dumped in San 515 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: Diego Bay. She's been missing two years, but at the 516 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: first moment the medical examiner sees her She says, this 517 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: woman has not been in the water for two years, 518 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: so where has she been? To doctor Kendall, Crown's Deputy 519 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: Chief Medical exam Er Austin, how can you tell if 520 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,479 Speaker 1: a dead body has ever been frozen? It's actually something 521 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: that you can't really tell on the body. You might 522 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: get a bit of a reddish change to the skin 523 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: coloration if they've been frozen, but other than that that 524 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: really freezing doesn't leave any physical signs on the body 525 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: beyond the reddish coloration and the lividity that occasionally appears. 526 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: So I guess a medical exam aner looked at the 527 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: level of d comp and knew she based on that alone, 528 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: she had not been in the water for two years. 529 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: He didn't know she had been frozen. Wow. Okay, take 530 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: a listen to NBC seven's Wendy Fry This is our 531 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: cut Tien Listen. On October thirteenth, twenty fourteen, Matthew Sullivan, 532 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: Elizabeth's spouse, told police he had been fighting with his 533 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: wife about custody and child support for their two young girls, 534 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: then ages two and four, and one of his statements 535 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: to police, he reported Sullivan made a mess of the 536 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: bedroom and took photos. NBC seven discovered records from another 537 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: nine one one call made about six months prior to 538 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: Elizabeth's disappearance. Elizabeth called nine one one, this time during 539 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: an argument, and told police there was a history of 540 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: domestic violence between the couple. Shortly after her disappearance, Elizabeth's 541 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: father flew to San Diego from the family's home in 542 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: Virginia to speak with NBC seven and beg for his 543 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: daughter's safe return. I feel like she's in trouble, to 544 00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: Matthew Mangino, veteran trial lawyer. You hear when the blood 545 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: is found soaked down in the carpet. Now this is 546 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: two years later, Okay, that the husband says is because 547 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: Elizabeth quote self harmed. So she mortally self harmed. And 548 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: I guess what does that mean? Committed suicide via self 549 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,439 Speaker 1: harming and then marched herself to the San Diego Bay 550 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: and threw herself in. Yeah, I mean the explanation of 551 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: self harm for the for the pool of blood that's 552 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: soaked into the carpet, um, you know, seems to be uh, 553 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: you know, lacking in any veracity. The issue is the 554 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: evidence is beginning to mount in this case. Obviously we 555 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: know that it's a homicide because the pathologists said that, 556 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: but didn't say the method. We now have blood, we 557 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: now have a knife, We now have a history of 558 00:34:55,160 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: some domestic abuse or domestic quarrels. So the evidence is 559 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: beginning to grow in this case. And it all seems, 560 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: you know, to point to something in the home that 561 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: it resulted in her death. Guys, take a listen now 562 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: to Ango Namura, Fox five, San Diego. Namely romance that 563 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 1: became romantic, quickly started, cool septs, domestic violence infinitely, financial 564 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: issues and threats and restraining orders. These are the hallmarks 565 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: of the marriage and crisis. Prosecutors and defense attorneys presented 566 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,240 Speaker 1: their opening statements sue jury in the case against Matthew Sullivan. 567 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: The former Navy sailer is facing a first degree murder 568 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: charge for allegedly killing his strange wife, Elizabeth Sullivan. Elizabeth's 569 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,240 Speaker 1: body was found in the San Diego Bay in twenty 570 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: sixteen after she reportedly disappeared in twenty fourteen. Data and 571 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: they found five different risks on her last side, straight 572 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 1: out to you, doctor Kendall, crowns, knicks and cuts on 573 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: her back. I guess they're referring to her bones. What 574 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: does that mean to you? And Nixon cuts on her back, 575 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,720 Speaker 1: I mean to me, if she has possible sharp horse 576 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: injury of her back, which is difficult to reach if 577 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: you're doing it to yourself, So it could be potentially 578 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,720 Speaker 1: sharp horse injury perpetrated by another individual. Also, the Nixon 579 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: cuts could be from, depending on where she would recovered 580 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 1: from the ocean or the shoreline, rocks and the water, 581 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: things of that nature. But how could they tell she 582 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: was stam dead? How could they tell she was found stamped? 583 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: I mean she would have stamped wounds, that would be 584 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: they have a particular pattern to them. When you see them, 585 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: you know they're stab wounds. So depending on how they 586 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: looked on her body, I'm sure the medical event or 587 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: accepts them. And until they were stabbling from and that 588 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: was probably internal injury associated with them. Is that why 589 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 1: it's required some time that the victim's skin be pulled 590 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: away from their body to look for internal damages. Correct, 591 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: That's part of an autopsy. The epidermal dermal layer, the 592 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: upper layer of skin is pulled away to expose the 593 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: muscul churned bones, and then those are pulled away to 594 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: show the damage to the organ. The end of the story, 595 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 1: take a listen to NBC seven. A judge is sending 596 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: a former Navy man to prison for the brutal stabbing 597 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: death of his wife. Late this afternoon, Matthew Sullivan was 598 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: sentenced to sixteen years to life in prison for the 599 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: second degree murder of Elizabeth Sullivan. She disappeared in twenty fourteen. 600 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: Her body was discovered in the San Diego Bay two 601 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: years later. Sullivan heard statements from Elizabeth's closest friends today 602 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: about how much her death has affected loved ones. There 603 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: are no words to describe this pain that still sits 604 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: in the pit of my heart. Show no mercy, Show 605 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 1: no mercy. Sixteen to life. Her children have been sentenced 606 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: to a life sentence without their mother. Nancy Grace Crime 607 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: Story signing off good my friend.