1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: going to have to start making better content. I think 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about this for a long time. 4 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: When you program for everyone, you program for no one. 5 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,319 Speaker 1: I think it's that we're purpose driven platform, like we're 6 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: trying to get to substance. How was that? Are you 7 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It 8 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: really is? What's up? I'm Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Kristen. 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Atlantia. Today we are talking to Nick Qua, 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: none other than Nick Qua, the guy who was probably 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: one of the first kind of signal in the noise 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: signals for podcasting UM. And we met Nick a few 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: years ago when we did g Podcast Theater and then 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: when we started Atlantia, and he's just got a really 15 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: clear perspective, not just on podcasting, but I also think 16 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: about what's gonna happen in the future of the media space, 17 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: maybe um in in light of or in addition to 18 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: audio totally. Yeah, I think the decoupling of those two things. 19 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: And I know something we've talked quite a bit about 20 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: is that, you know, many brands and advertisers and creators 21 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: are saying you know, what's my approach to podcasting. It's 22 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: not necessarily about what is your approach to podcasting, it's 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: what's your approach to audio? Um, and how do you 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: think about podcasting as a mechanism to deliver a narrative 25 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: within that. Earlier in the week, Nick and I got 26 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: to sit on a panel with The New York Times 27 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: during for Advertising Week, and we're going to talk about 28 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: on the show, UM, has it hit the point of maturation? 29 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: Are we in a mainstream phase of podcasting? Really interesting? 30 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: What is mainstream? Right? What is mainstream? And to get 31 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: next take on that? But I still think we're we're 32 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: very early days and we have a lot to learn 33 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: about how to leverage this channel to create conversation and 34 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: engage with consumers. So if you don't subscribe to Nick's 35 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: Hot Pod newsletter, you should because I always found UM 36 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: when I started researching what was happening in the audio 37 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: space like three or four years ago, he was this 38 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: you know, he had a community and he had he 39 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: was this voice UM that kind of cut through all 40 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: the um mystical ship of what was happening. So with that, 41 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: Nick Kua, we'll be right back, and we're back in 42 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: the studio with none other than Nick Qua, founder of 43 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: hot Pod and contributor to Vulture. Nick, welcome, so great 44 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: to have you on the show. We were just reminiscing 45 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: about our first time meeting you back at the Atlantia 46 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 1: launch party UM, which is almost two years ago now, 47 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: which is incredible to think about. And obviously the space 48 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: has evolved tremendously since then. But hot Pod, your podcast 49 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: industry must read newsletter, has just exploded. Can you tell 50 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: us about the journey you've been on, and before you 51 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: get into that, really why you decided to create the newsletter. Well, 52 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's explode. It it's more just 53 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: like grown slowly month over month, year over year, much 54 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: like podcasting in general. I got into it because back 55 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: in two fourteen, I was working in another news room 56 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: and I had been a listener to podcasts for a 57 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: long time by them, and the first season of Cyril 58 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: had been sort of reaching its apex at the point 59 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: I believe it was it was November. It was somewhere 60 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: like it's six or seventh episode, and a good number 61 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: of mainstream outlets started writing about Cyril in the podcast 62 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: industry at large. But it didn't quite map with what 63 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: I understood about the community. Um and it's sort of 64 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: like just drove me to build a small, sort of 65 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: free side project just to like get some thoughts out 66 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: and essentially blog. But after a while more people started subscribing, 67 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: and after a while after that, people from w n 68 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: y C and a few other sort of like podcast 69 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: companies New Synasty were stead of subscribing, and it just 70 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: sort of never stopped publishing. Since what have you noticed 71 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: over the time of writing about the industry people are 72 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: are most curious about, I think people. So I've always 73 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: thought about Hot Pot as a community paper. It breaks 74 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: new sometimes, but it doesn't always like and I try 75 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: not to do it very often until it's important. But 76 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: they usually sort of design it as basically a water 77 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: cooler for various people from the community to sort of 78 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: look at an issue and sort of understand the lay 79 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: of the land. A given week, I try to sort 80 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: of put in a lot of stories about how people 81 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: are thinking about the space, how people operate within this space. 82 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: Of my bread and butter work has always been look 83 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: at this team, this is how they're thinking about things, 84 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: is what they're doing, and this is what they're worried about, 85 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: but sometimes I step in to do sort of like 86 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: thirty thou feet analysis into what I think is the 87 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: bigger picture and trying to draw lines that readers kind 88 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: otherwise drove by themselves. The world of podcasting in the 89 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: last to four years has completely changed. It's kind of 90 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: mainstream now in terms of at least people listening talking 91 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: about it, media companies getting into it, um, journalists getting 92 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: into it, etcetera. What do you think right now are 93 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: the kind of biggest signals of where the industry is headed? Um. 94 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: It's actually really interesting because I do wonder whether it 95 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: has achieved a sort of sort of mainstream status, and 96 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: I do wonder about that still a larger question of 97 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: what it means to be mainstream and knows where the 98 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: media goes. We sort of functioned to really like fragmented 99 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: media ecosystem right now because the Internet has basically flattened everything. Um. 100 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: But the thing that's been super interesting to me about 101 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: the past four years is I think we're going to 102 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,559 Speaker 1: look back at to mid is a sort of really 103 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: interesting in between period and now we're only we're about 104 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: to see, you know, what scale really means and what 105 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: it um sort of an industry growing into something that 106 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: has a bigger architecture really means that the biggest signals 107 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: to me are UM, you know, are hard Media acquiring 108 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: stuff Media a couple of weeks ago. That's a significantly 109 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: It's a once a massive radio giant acquiring a veteran 110 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: very sort of hard at work, very functional, highly functioning 111 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: podcast publishing company UM. And that to me is sort 112 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: of a harbinger of things that come. I think we're 113 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: going to see a lot of big legacy via companies 114 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 1: by its win to the space and inject a lot 115 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: more resources into it. And the question then would be 116 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: how how do you sort of grow this thing UM 117 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: in a way that hasn't been just in like in 118 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: a much quicker way, right like the past four years, 119 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: in the past ten years before that has largely been 120 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: a story of the industry or the community organ organically 121 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: trying to figure things out on its own. Now we're 122 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: going to sort of see UM sort of fire from 123 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: a different direction. Any in your opinion that fire from 124 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: a different direction. Is it the same model that has 125 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: been followed, like a more ad supported model that's been 126 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: you know, the decades, you know, sixty seventy years of 127 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: media or do you think that's going to change. It's 128 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: one of those situations where I think advertising is not 129 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: gonna go anywhere. It's it's it has been sort of 130 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: the predominant business model for so many different kinds of 131 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: media formats and different kinds of industries. So what we're 132 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: going to probably see on that front is, um, what 133 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: we've learned from ad tech over the past ten years 134 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: in earth set of technology industry being an attempt to 135 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: apply it to podcasting, which is largely sort of developed 136 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: the really storm of reputation and value proposition around um, 137 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, host red ads that are you know, intimate 138 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: and baked into to the medium and baked into a 139 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: podcast episode. Um, we're going to see sort of all 140 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: those two models clash and figure out what the new 141 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: what the new sort of thing is? Yeah, what the what? 142 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: What comes out from that? I don't know. I'm pretty 143 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: sure that the value proposition will change as a result 144 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: all the sort of messaging around podcastings intimacy and the 145 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: effectiveness of its ad reads. It's going to be substantially 146 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: challenged when you set of applied programmatic thinking to this. 147 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: But hopefully you know the numbers will lead to a 148 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: better place and hopefully that we productive outcomes. But I 149 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: think it's like, how do you think podcasting has changed journalism? 150 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at New York Times and 151 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: you look at the Daily, I think the Daily probably 152 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: got a lot more audience for the New York Times, 153 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: and the New York Times was getting before the Daily. 154 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: I think you can cut into this question from two directions. 155 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: One UM what it offers legacy news companies and legacy 156 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: journalism organizations that this opportunity to as you mentioned, reach 157 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: new audiences UM and largely that comes from this dynamic 158 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: in which newspaper organizations have beene for a lot of time, 159 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: have often adopted like a voice of God kind of approach, 160 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: and it's sort of a monolithic, faceless we are the 161 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: authority on the subject style of news distribution and information dessemination. 162 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: And we're in a moment in not just America but 163 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: the world where trust in institutions are are challenged. And 164 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: what UM Audio broadly of sort of offers is this 165 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: opportunity for UM people to connect people to connect institutions, 166 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: people to connective journalists, and people to sort of really 167 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: form of emotional emotional bond with this side that works 168 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: really hard at producing the news but has historically been 169 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: sort of embattled by a sort of people who question 170 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: truth and things like that, but sort of people think 171 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: it from the other direction. It's it's sort of this 172 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: in between place between old legacy news organizations and sort 173 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: of the blogging, rapid fire news news organizations or sort 174 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: of new media companies that sort of came to age 175 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: in the mid to late two thousand's, places like Gawker, 176 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: places like BuzzFeed, sort of sites that really built their 177 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: identity around being one of the people being very voicey. 178 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: I feel like the Daily and Specific has been able 179 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 1: to sort of build a space where it feels like 180 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: this in between ground, that you're talking to a real person, 181 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: that this person has a voice, but this person isn't 182 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: particularly like isn't irreverend, And it's still sort of able 183 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: to embody authority in a really interesting way. And I 184 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: think I think that's the wedge. What are your thoughts 185 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: are sort of recommendations are best practices given what you've 186 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: seen in this space for brands who are eager to 187 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: either dip their toe or go all in, Because I 188 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: think over the last two years, we've seen many different 189 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,959 Speaker 1: brands across many different categories go at this in different ways. 190 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. My recommendation would be to trust the natives 191 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: of this community. The heart of this product is an emotion, 192 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: and the heart of this product is like an an 193 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: intimacy of relationship, and so that is what you're either 194 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: trying to develop if you were to create a branded 195 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: podcast of your own, but that's also what you're trying 196 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: to bite into. And as anybody in the sort of 197 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: healthy nurging long term really you should can tell you 198 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: it's sort of like it's a lot about listening. It's 199 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: a lot about being being attentive to how this community 200 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 1: works and how this um, how this space does its job. 201 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: And I think I would recommend this like listening to 202 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 1: not just podcast publishers but um but too, but listen 203 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: to what podcast audiences want. And that's that's kind of 204 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: what you're renting into it the end of the day, 205 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on what's happening in the programmatic 206 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: space in audio in podcasting? Kind of as the maybe 207 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: counter to that, yeah, I don't, I don't know. So 208 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: i I'm Morather the young person and the sort of 209 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: the kind of person that I really tuned out commercial 210 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: radio because I find radio ads this extremely assaulting and 211 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: overwhelming and just unpleasant. Um. And so that's my memory 212 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: and that's sort of that's my um my relationship with 213 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: the notion of programmatic, right, Like I came up of 214 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: age in the Internet when sort of patter ads were 215 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: like not great at its peak assault of this and 216 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: so I think the question is that of can you 217 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: use programmatic to scale quality and into the scene? Um? 218 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: And I don't know. I think this is unproven territory. Um. 219 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: There is definitely a model into into which how programmatic 220 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: could work for a technology like this, But you're not 221 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: scaling quantity, your scaling quality um. And so that's that's 222 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: the difficulty here, and therefore it changes I think the 223 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: nature of programmatic right. So right now it's about chasing 224 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: eyeballs and volume. I think that you know, Laura and 225 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: I have talked about a lot in the past that 226 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: programmatic is the right idea executed in the wrong way. 227 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: And that's in digital right add you know, banners and 228 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: things like that, And I think it's possibly going to 229 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: happen in audio unless unless there is some kind of 230 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: genius around creating experience and letting that drive a targeted 231 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: by I think what two things I think there are 232 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: there are two things that might bring us to a 233 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: better place of programmatic right Like. I think the first 234 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: thing is if we see really strong, clear leaders building 235 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: out a model that that both sort of respects the 236 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: meeting's intimacy and also it is able to utilize programmatic 237 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: in the right way. If somebody can figure that out 238 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: and be really strong and messaging that this is how 239 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: it's going to work, it will lead to like the 240 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: creation of norms around how you use programmatic that could 241 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: be productive. So I think I think that is something 242 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: that we should be looking out for, and if we 243 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: see it, we should elevate it. I think that's that's important. 244 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: That to me only gives more thought around subscription models 245 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: and people saying, you know, we'd rather pay than than 246 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: listen to the same sort of experience Nickels alluding to 247 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: within commercial radio. So the curious to get your thoughts 248 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: on the subscription approach and if you have any idea 249 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: insight into those that may be um thinking about this 250 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: and that you're excited for. I've seen unheard of a 251 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: bunch of different plays within the space right now that's 252 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: podcast specific. There as a company called Theminity that's trying 253 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: to build sort of paid platform for podcasting. They literally 254 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: want to be the Netflix for podcasts. UM. There are 255 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of other companies to have similar plays. UM. 256 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: Stitcher has Stitcher Premium, which essentially offers like bonuses and 257 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: and interesting UM exclusive shows on that kind of recites 258 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: on top or to the corner of their overarching ad 259 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: driven model. I have written. I wrote a column about 260 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: this a couple of months ago. I think we're looking 261 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: at the wrong models. UM. I think we're looking at 262 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: the wrong metaphors. We shouldn't be drawing from things like 263 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: like Netflix because they just have different histories if how 264 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: they get to to where they are. We should be 265 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: looking at things like head Space, which is a sort 266 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: of meditation app that's able to slip into people's lives 267 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: in a very specific way. UM. And it's and it 268 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: sort of fits into a very specific use case for 269 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people that would drive them to say yes, 270 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: I will pay five or six dollars a month for 271 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: this for this content. UM. I think that's the sort 272 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: of model for where people should start before moving out market. 273 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: But UM, I haven't quite seen anything as podcast specific 274 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: that UM that's encouraging or that's interesting. Do you think 275 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: there's a new model that needs to be built for 276 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: Amazon and Google Home and those types of things in 277 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: the podcasting space? You know, right now there are a 278 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: lot of podcasts that are available on Amazon, for example. 279 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that the same experience that we hear 280 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: when we plug in our phones and listen to a 281 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: podcast should be the same experience is when you're listening 282 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: to it in your home. I think that's right, But 283 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: I think there are some things that do retain. UM. 284 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: There are ways in which I can activate Alexa skills 285 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: that overlap with the nature of being on demand, right, 286 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: like one of the sort of bigger value propositions of 287 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: podcasting sort of like you're able to UM, you made 288 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: a choice to listen to this thing, and therefore it's 289 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: something that you bought into and you have a testive 290 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: relationship with to track this out, as opposed to something 291 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: that's more of a linear stream that you catch onto 292 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: and you either choose to opt out or to switch 293 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: around if you if you didn't like what you're listening to. UM. 294 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: The way I've been trying to think about this is 295 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: sort of the shift between desktop two mobile UM. The 296 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: way that we had sites specifically designed for a stesktop 297 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: that never really designed specifically for mobile, and as a result, 298 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: there are breakdowns in that relationship when when one carries 299 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: to the other. UM. The question I think is sort 300 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: of how do you either restructure shows or redesign shows 301 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: that could fit in both environments or and or how 302 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: do you build things specifically for alexa UM. There was 303 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: a point that was raised in the at Week panel 304 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: that that Laura and I did that was so super interesting, 305 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: which is the coupling the idea of podcasts with the 306 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: idea of audio. I think that's definitely an inevitability. Publishers 307 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: need to do that, especially not just when one smart 308 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: speaker is really sort of become the touch, the first 309 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: touch for most audio consumption, but also when platforms like 310 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: Spotify or or pandor really really really sort of buy 311 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: into a co opt um space previously occupied by podcast publishers, 312 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: and you know, it's it's sort of I think it's 313 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: it's it's all audio the end of the day, but 314 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: it's all it all has to be sort of a 315 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: little bit more thoughtful than than what's going on right now, 316 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: thinking about the use case and the utility. Well also, 317 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: then I think forced brands to think about it's not 318 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: just it's not good enough just to create podcast content 319 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: or audio content. It's a strategy, like how are you 320 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: deploying your message accordingly? So I agree, and I think, 321 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: you know, Nick, this is something I'd love to get 322 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: your opinion on. We have been, for lack of a 323 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: better term, in a really linear I think you actually 324 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: said this earlier, like a linear media world, I personally think, 325 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: and maybe it's more of a hope the audio is 326 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: going to actually break that, and so we're gonna be 327 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: looking at more non linear types of media, and that 328 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: could look like something where you start franchising not only 329 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: a brand, but a talent or an idea. So if 330 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: like I'm headed into a meeting with the CMO and 331 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: I need to talk to them about something that's happening 332 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: trend wise, there's no reason I couldn't have Serificial give 333 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: me the top three things right as I'm walking out 334 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: the door that I need to know about X, Y, 335 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: and Z. All of a sudden, those voices, if you will, 336 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: or that content I p becomes almost um uh just omnipresent. 337 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: What's your opinion on that, Nick, I mean, do you 338 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: think that's possible and and and prompted by this kind 339 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: of um potential and audio. Yeah, I think it's super 340 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: interesting because I feel like we were always trending in 341 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: this direction, regardless of the specific context of the media industry. UM. 342 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: Going back to what we were talking about early or 343 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: sort of trust in institutions and trust and authorities have 344 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: sort of been declining over time, and I think what 345 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: has replaced as this notion of you know, trust, trust 346 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: in individuals and you know, you know, folks kind of 347 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: say like always invest in a person in kind of situation. 348 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: And I think I think what we're seeing I don't 349 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,719 Speaker 1: quite know how this translates to every media company or 350 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: every new media context or different kinds of programming UM, 351 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: but I think we're seeing sort of really interesting UM 352 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,719 Speaker 1: new compandia companies being built around individual voices. And one 353 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: of the best examples of this is probably Actio says 354 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: and you were talking about Sara Fisher. It's not just her, 355 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: but they've also built sort of um it's built architecture 356 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: around Jonathan Swan who's their political correspondent, and and Mike Allen, 357 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: who's the founder a co founder of acxios where UM 358 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: they go into the world that you can read them 359 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: in the newsletter, you can see them on TV, you 360 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: can see them on Twitter. They probably have like four 361 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: or five different other touch points of how they're distributing 362 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: the information that they know UM and you know, it's 363 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: all sort of value being carried outwards into all these 364 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: different directions. The questions sort of how do you sort 365 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: of monetize all of those and and the question for 366 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: me and a brother's sense, it's also how to you 367 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: adapt this model to other kinds of UM media context 368 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: and programming cells and genres, because I don't think it's 369 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: a model that could fit for everyone, but it is 370 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 1: there's something intriguing about the truth that there is trust 371 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: in the individuals there. Nick. One of the things you 372 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: and I were chatting about on that panel was around 373 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: the idea of formats and the ability for people to 374 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: get creative and not just thinking about it as talking 375 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: heads or interviews or news style content, but some of 376 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: the mechanisms that have been used by people like panically, 377 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: where they've built been series around Empire and Blood, some 378 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: of the relationships that are starting to happen with Hollywood 379 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: that we see Gimlet moving toward. What are your thoughts 380 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: around sort of non news, sort of the fictional storytelling 381 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: and the ways people are really getting creative with format. 382 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: And so we've seen like a bunch of historically seen 383 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: like a bunch of really interesting innovations over the past 384 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: couple of years, specifically of the podcasting. So in Para 385 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: Blood dropped all their episodes at once, but so did 386 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: as Town uh like I believe March of last year, 387 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: where they dropped this entire novelistic story um down in 388 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: I sell all seven chapters in one day and it 389 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: ends up being this sort of really remarkable experience, which is, 390 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: you know, in hindsight, what do you think about It's 391 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: really hard to monetize. Also, it's hard to sort of 392 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: evaluate the risk of whether you want to get an 393 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: ad buy on that um. But we've also seen, like 394 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: I think even something as early as a comedy Bang 395 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: Bang like that's sort of a really popular comedy podcast, 396 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: your Wolf Um. They really play with how long you 397 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: can go, how deep you can go a different segments 398 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 1: and and sort of blurring the line between something that's 399 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,479 Speaker 1: fictionals I think it's not fictional. There are all these 400 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: sort of different elements that carry different amounts of risk 401 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: to the podcast on the genre to format that they're using. 402 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: UM think that for me, the prevailing question is sort 403 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: of where where would the incentives for more innovations like 404 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: this come from? Because there are increasing questions about UM 405 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: the costs to really build a new experimental products of 406 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: a high quality like this UM and for a lot 407 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: of podcast publishers are not exactly rolling around in cash, 408 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: so they're they're sort of a little worried about upfront advice. 409 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: As a result, they're they're a little worried about where 410 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: the principal state comes from. So I think we're gonna 411 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: see a bit of the push and pull here. I 412 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: think a lot of the innovation is going to come 413 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: from independent makers who are usually are working at a 414 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: smaller scale and hopefully they get to move up market 415 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: over time to experiment at grander levels. But UM, but 416 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: it's it's unclear to me, like where the next thing 417 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: is going to come from, because it's it's hard to 418 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: sort of plot out de jectories and things like this. 419 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: Thinking about the roles that I think many of the 420 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: platforms in the podcast space are starting to take on. 421 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: I think in the beginning, everybody was trying to figure 422 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: it out. Everybody was rushing to the market, creating content, 423 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: trying to find their way. But cure is if you 424 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: also feel that they're starting to become more defined swim 425 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 1: lanes in the space. I think, you know, there are 426 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: certain podcast production companies that are starting to develop a 427 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: reputation for the content they're creating. There's technology players sort 428 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: of emerging and solidifying theirselves in the space, and then 429 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: I think there's sort of these best in class creators 430 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: um that regardless of where they ended up, you know 431 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: they would have a following. So this is my litmus test. 432 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: If it's still possible that a person working or a 433 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: team working with relatively few resources to develop something that 434 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: can comparably compete with you know, something like this American 435 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: Life or you know, anything that comes up from the 436 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: Slate network, if an unknown person can stills take that 437 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: attention and to pomp, then you still have a situation 438 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: which the swim lanes, no matter how defined anydia are, 439 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: can always be challenged. And I think we still exist 440 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: in the space where that can happen, That the next 441 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: best thing class creator, that the next team of people 442 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: who will build sort of the next big package company. 443 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: It's still very much open and possible. There there are 444 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: no sort of structural limitations that prevents that from happening. 445 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: We might be c have seen the formation of different 446 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: companies and an industry structure that reduces the probability of 447 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: that happening. Um, But the possibility that is still very 448 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: much alive and and to me, I think that's that's 449 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: still an interesting promise of the space. That's what keeps 450 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: us coming back, right. So, Nick, what is the hot 451 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: pod of the day? What are you loving listening to? Um? 452 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: I'm actually working on a review for Vulture right now 453 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: on this new fiction podcast from the CBC the Canadian 454 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: Broadcasting Corporation is written directed at stars Caitlin Press who 455 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: um famously produced The Heart, which was a Radiotopia show 456 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: about the sort of intimacy and emotion. UM and it's 457 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: a really interesting audio fiction series. Um. UM sort of 458 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: fascinated think through it and write about it. And that's 459 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: all I've been thinking about the name of brain. What 460 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: is the thing you want to see made yesterday. M hm, 461 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: great questions. You know, part of the cop out answer 462 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: here is that I'm always looking for something that I 463 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: didn't think about, like something that surprises me and something 464 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: that like, you know, one of the things I always 465 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: fear whenever I go to the bookstore or look at 466 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: that fall TV lineup is that I'm going to look 467 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: at a wall of things that I've heard of before, 468 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: that this thing doesn't feel particularly surprising, that that's a 469 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: copy of that or invitation of that. So Nick, we're 470 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: gonna end the show with our favorite game. What would 471 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: you kill? What would you buy? What would you do yourself? 472 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: I would kill a video like social video. This is 473 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: really stressing me out all the time every time I 474 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: see it. Um, I would buy a public radio station 475 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: in nowhere America because I still think those are really 476 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: beautiful gems. Um, in this country, I would d I 477 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: y a TV station that will be fun well, Nick, 478 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: qua hot pod read it. If people want to reach you, 479 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: subscribe to the newsletter. How do they do that? Um? 480 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: You can find me on hot pot news dot com 481 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: or you can find me on Twitter. At end of 482 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: qua Quah, Nick leave our listeners with three must listen 483 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: to podcasts going into the weekend. UM, I would listen 484 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: to to re Watchables if you don't already listen to that. UM, 485 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: I would listen to the New Cereal season, which continues 486 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: to be super interesting. UM and I will listen to 487 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: UM this really interesting episode from a podcast called Beautiful 488 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: Stories from another Those People by the communing Chris get Third. 489 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: UM and the most recent episode, he spoke to a 490 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: person who survive the last Vegas shooting exactly a year ago. 491 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: This week, UM and it's it's the Court dis Conversation, 492 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: nick La. Thank you so much, Thank you, Nick, thank 493 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: you so big. Thanks to Nick Kwa. Make sure you 494 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: check out the hot Pot newsletter. It's where we're getting 495 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: all of our information on the podcast industry on the regular. 496 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: I've been a reader of hot pod for years now 497 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: and he's been kind of this voice and this perspective 498 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: on the industry and as it's grown, kind of made 499 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: me think about audio, not just podcasting in a different way. 500 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: So thank you again, Nick Koa, all of our friends 501 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: and family at Panoply, our producer Dana. We'll be back 502 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: in two weeks see Atlantia. Mm hmm. Full disclosure, our 503 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: opinions are our own