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Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. Three presidents Jefferson, Madison,

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Speaker 1: and Monroe are known as the Virginia Dynasty. They served

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Speaker 1: as presidents from eighteen o one to eighteen twenty five

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Speaker 1: and implemented the foreign policy, domestic and constitutional agenda of

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Speaker 1: the radical wing of the American Revolution, setting guideposts for

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Speaker 1: later Americans to follow. The three close political allies were

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Speaker 1: tightly related. Jefferson and Madison were the closest of friends,

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Speaker 1: and Monroe was Jefferson's former law student. Their achievements were many,

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Speaker 1: including the founding of the opposition Republican Party in the

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Speaker 1: seventeen nineties, the Louisiana Purchase, and the call upon Congress

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Speaker 1: in eighteen o six to use its constitutional power to

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Speaker 1: ban slave imports beginning on January first, eighteen o eight.

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Speaker 1: Here to talk about the Virginia Dynasty, I'm really pleased

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Speaker 1: to welcome my guest, Kevin Goodsman. His new book, The Jeffersonians,

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Speaker 1: The Visionary Presidencies of Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe, details the

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Speaker 1: time in America when three presidents work toward common goals

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Speaker 1: to strengthen the republic. Kevin is a professor of history

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Speaker 1: at Western Connecticut State University, and he has his law

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Speaker 1: degree from the University of Texas Law School and PhD

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Speaker 1: in American history from the University of Virginia. His books

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Speaker 1: include Thomas Jefferson Revolutionary, James Madison in the Making of America,

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Speaker 1: and Virginia's American Revolution, Anne, Who's Killing the Constitution? Kevin,

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Speaker 1: Welcome and thank you for joining me on Newts World.

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to be here. You're welcome. Now. I noticed

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Speaker 1: that you became a lawyer and then became a professor.

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Speaker 1: What led to that pattern? Well, I would go into

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Speaker 1: my very fancy legal office and count the minutes until

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Speaker 1: lunch when I could go to it at neighborhood restaurant

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Speaker 1: and read a history book. And after doing that for

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Speaker 1: a while, I decided, why don't I do this history

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Speaker 1: thing full time? It does pay substantially less, but I

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Speaker 1: still like it substantially more so. Here I am as

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Speaker 1: you look back, just in terms of quality of life.

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Speaker 1: Was that the right decision? I think it was the

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Speaker 1: right decision. One other point to note is that one

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Speaker 1: of the members of my PhD orals committee was Walter Sablinsky,

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Speaker 1: who I understand was on your PhD Orals committee at Tulane.

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Speaker 1: He told me that you were the smartest student he

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Speaker 1: had ever sat on an orals committee for But I

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Speaker 1: will hurry to add that he'd said that before he

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Speaker 1: sat on my orals committee. That's the spirit. So maybe

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Speaker 1: I was the second smartest. Well, I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: didn't ask him. I have great memories of being at

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Speaker 1: Tulane and going through the process, both with the oral

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Speaker 1: defense and then with the writing a dissertation. It was

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Speaker 1: a good training. It's interesting. And your first book was

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Speaker 1: a New York Times bestseller, The Politically Incorrect Guide to

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Speaker 1: the Constitution, back in two thousand and seven. Why did

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Speaker 1: you write The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Constitution. Well, because,

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Speaker 1: in general, if one studies constitutional history in high school,

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Speaker 1: in college, in law school, what he's going to get

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Speaker 1: is John Marshall's side of the story. And I thought

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Speaker 1: there needed to be a conservative, state centered federal government

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Speaker 1: side that is opposed to a national government side of

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Speaker 1: the story. And so that's what my book is. It's

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Speaker 1: the only Jeffersonian account of American constitutional history in print, actually,

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Speaker 1: and it was a New York Times bestseller. You sided

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Speaker 1: with the Jeffersonians, who actually were very anti judge. Well,

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Speaker 1: actually they weren't anti judge, And in fact, part of

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Speaker 1: Jefferson's argument with Madison to the effect that there should

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Speaker 1: be a Bill of Rights was that he thought that

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Speaker 1: good judges, the three outstanding judges in Virginia at the time,

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Speaker 1: could make good use of the Bill of Rights. Their

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Speaker 1: complaint about John Marshall was that he wanted to collapse

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Speaker 1: the sovereignty in the United States into the federal government.

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Speaker 1: And Jefferson's chief political principle after Republicanism, which of course

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Speaker 1: is a given, was that the government was decentralized, that

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Speaker 1: most authority had been retained by the states. So that's

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Speaker 1: what the book is about. And it seems me in

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Speaker 1: that sense that there was a remarkably sharp divide which

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Speaker 1: we almost always ignore, between the Alexander Hamilton John Marshall

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Speaker 1: notion of a strong central government and the Jeffersonian belief

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Speaker 1: that freedom was best protected by the states, and that

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Speaker 1: in fact he wanted to be very cautious about putting

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Speaker 1: too much power in the federal government. That's exactly right,

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Speaker 1: and that's one of the main themes of my new book.

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Speaker 1: It's that Jefferson, Madison, Monroe actually implemented this theory in

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Speaker 1: the first quarter of the nineteenth century. The reason why

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Speaker 1: Jefferson favored it, of course, was that he thought it

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Speaker 1: was going to be only a very few people who

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Speaker 1: like him could be president, vice president, secretary of state,

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Speaker 1: governor of their home states. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: if government power were decentralized, the average person could be

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Speaker 1: highly involved in making the important governmental decisions that we're

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Speaker 1: going to affect him. So federalism seemed to him to

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Speaker 1: be one of the main principles that the American Revolution

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Speaker 1: it stood for. In fact, in one famous letter, he

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Speaker 1: said that the reason the French Revolution had failed was

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Speaker 1: that the French had adopted the policy of he said

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Speaker 1: Haney and dvz Blow, which is say, one indivisible. And

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Speaker 1: he thought this was a mistake. He thought that the

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Speaker 1: least in the United States, we had gotten it right.

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Speaker 1: That yes, there needed to be a central government with

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Speaker 1: some few powers, but those powers were only the ones

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Speaker 1: that the states could not exercise competently for themselves, so

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Speaker 1: they were few. Since you did your dissertation at the

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Speaker 1: University of Virginia in Charlottesville, how much do you think

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Speaker 1: walking those grounds and being around Jefferson's home and all that.

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Speaker 1: How much do you think that attracted you to the

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Speaker 1: three Jeffersonian presidents. That's an interesting question. The fellow who

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Speaker 1: was my dissertation advisor, Peter Onnoff, who probably in his

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Speaker 1: generation was the leading expert on Jefferson, always said he

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Speaker 1: had a conflicted relationship with Jefferson. That is, he was

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Speaker 1: not what you would call a full on fan, but

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Speaker 1: he was not the kind of statue toppler that is

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Speaker 1: so common today. And so I think it wasn't that

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Speaker 1: I was being pushed into this by my surroundings. It

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Speaker 1: was I had learned in college and in law school,

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Speaker 1: and in doing my own reading about the constitutional history

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Speaker 1: of the country, that this federal principle had been of

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Speaker 1: significant importance to the people who made the revolution. And

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Speaker 1: it did seem to me that by the time I

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Speaker 1: was in law school, which was in the late nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 1: the principle of federalism had more or less been erased

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Speaker 1: from American concert social law. In fact, when I took

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Speaker 1: the bar review course that lawyers have to take on

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Speaker 1: route to taking the bar exam, I remember when the

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Speaker 1: constructor was talking about the multi state exam which is

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Speaker 1: a multiple choice exam. She said, if the tenth Amendment

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Speaker 1: is one of the answers offered, you, you know that's wrong.

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Speaker 1: That's never right. And I thought, how can that be

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Speaker 1: never right? It's part of the Constitution. So I realized

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Speaker 1: at that point I wanted to know more about this

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Speaker 1: general subject, and to some extent, each of my books

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Speaker 1: has had a focus on this topic. It's not been

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Speaker 1: the sole focus of any of them, of course, but

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Speaker 1: it's one that I've come back to over and over

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Speaker 1: again because it was of preeminent importance to many of

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Speaker 1: the people who made the revolution, to many of people

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Speaker 1: even who are involved in making the Constitution. I've always

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Speaker 1: been very shruck that Jefferson was, in fact an extraordinarily

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Speaker 1: good politician, that he had some knack of attracting and

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Speaker 1: organizing and arousing people. Do you have that same sense that,

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Speaker 1: in fact, there's a strange subtlety to Jefferson meeting both

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Speaker 1: very intellectual and aloof and at the same time meeting

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Speaker 1: somehow very attractive to the everyday rural farmer. Well, I

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Speaker 1: think that's true, but I think actually it goes beyond Jefferson.

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Speaker 1: It really reflects the status of people of his class

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Speaker 1: in Virginia society. So at the time of the revolution,

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Speaker 1: of course, people were sent off without having been elected

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Speaker 1: by the general electorate to be congressmen from the various states.

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Speaker 1: And we have a lot of evidence from newspaper accounts

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Speaker 1: and from correspondence at the time that the common folk

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Speaker 1: in Virginia were actually proud of their political leadership, even

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Speaker 1: though virtually all of them were from the same class

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Speaker 1: as Jefferson. So they were generally moneyed men, you had

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Speaker 1: to be at a time when having political office didn't

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Speaker 1: come with a salary. Actually, when the General Assembly in

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Speaker 1: Virginia was sitting was harvest time. It was hard to

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Speaker 1: be away from one's farm for more than a week

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Speaker 1: or two. And so this idea that there was a

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Speaker 1: ruling elite was one that we don't find a lot

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Speaker 1: of resistance too in colonial or early Republican Virginia. That's

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Speaker 1: a point I often make to my undergraduates. You'd think

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Speaker 1: today that if you had only people who were highly

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Speaker 1: moneyed and independently wealthy in some states congressional delegation, their

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Speaker 1: opposition would make that point. But in early Republican Virginia

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Speaker 1: that doesn't seem to have been a point that came

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Speaker 1: to mind. People really weren't unhappy with it. The idea

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Speaker 1: that they should be unhappy with it, I think is

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Speaker 1: a later development. Jefferson, it seems to me really developing

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Speaker 1: a party based on principles and ideas, And in that sense,

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Speaker 1: as you describe it, his first inaugural address is really

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Speaker 1: different from both Adams and Washington. Can you sort of

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Speaker 1: expand on that. Washington's second inaugural Address of memory serves

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Speaker 1: as three sentences long, and Washington's first inaugural address essentially

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Speaker 1: is a pledge that he will try to live up

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Speaker 1: to the duties that are now incumbent upon him. On

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Speaker 1: the other hand, Jefferson's first inaugural address lays out the

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Speaker 1: program that these three presidents and their congressional allies are

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Speaker 1: going to seek to implement. They don't know it at

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Speaker 1: the time, of course, but are going to seek to

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Speaker 1: implement over the following twenty four years. And what he

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Speaker 1: thinks he's doing is describing the fruit of the revolution.

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Speaker 1: He thinks, and of course nowadays we wouldn't agree with

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Speaker 1: this wholeheartedly, but he thought that the Republican program was

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Speaker 1: the program of the revolution that it stood for, first

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Speaker 1: of all, relying on common men to defend their country

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Speaker 1: in case it were threatened. That it stood for having

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Speaker 1: lower taxes than the federalists had wanted to have. That

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Speaker 1: it stood for a fealty to government despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that there weren't impressive old families running it, that there

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Speaker 1: wasn't a king who had been ordained by God to

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Speaker 1: be the ruler of the country. In fact, of course,

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Speaker 1: he famously said, this is the strength of the country.

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Speaker 1: This is why America actually has a stronger government than

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Speaker 1: any other government in the world. People respect their government

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Speaker 1: because it isn't made up of people to whom they're

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Speaker 1: supposed to defer. So the first Inaugural Address is both

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Speaker 1: a kind of party platform and prospectus and statement of

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Speaker 1: Jefferson's own political principles, which of course he doesn't ever

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Speaker 1: clearly separate from what he takes to be common American principles.

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Speaker 1: So one point to note about Jefferson is that he

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Speaker 1: did have quite the ego. He did tend to equate

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Speaker 1: the common man's opinion with his own. He did tend

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Speaker 1: to equate American principles with his own principles. On the

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Speaker 1: other hand, we have to notice that the electorate often

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Speaker 1: rewarded him and his followers on the basis of exactly

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Speaker 1: that claim. Jefferson does build what is an effect on machine,

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Speaker 1: and basically, over the course of about twelve years, annihilates

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Speaker 1: the Federalist I mean, the Federalists have been sort of

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Speaker 1: the dominant party under Washington Adams. Adam's mismanages it and

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Speaker 1: ends up in a big fight with Alexander Hamilton and

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Speaker 1: splits the party, and then from that point on there's

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Speaker 1: just a steady downward slide. One could think that Adams

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Speaker 1: split the party, or one could think that Hamilton split

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Speaker 1: the party. I guess that depends how one looks at it.

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Speaker 1: But Jefferson's understanding of what had happened in the seventeen

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Speaker 1: nineties was that Washington was everybody's hero. He was Jefferson's hero,

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Speaker 1: he was Madison's. Madison died with statues of Washington and

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Speaker 1: paintings of Washington all over his house, and Hamilton, Jefferson thought,

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Speaker 1: had ensued nuated himself into Washington's good graces and then

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Speaker 1: used Washington's name and prestige to get Congress and the

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Speaker 1: people to agree to a program that they otherwise wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have agreed to. And of course I'm not saying I

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Speaker 1: agree with this, but that was the way that Jefferson

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Speaker 1: understood what had happened. And he thought, now this was over.

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Speaker 1: Now Washington was gone and Hamilton was gone, and the

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Speaker 1: people were going to see since he famously said to

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Speaker 1: one of his closest political allies, John Taylor of Caroline,

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Speaker 1: that once doctor tax Man showed up at the door,

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Speaker 1: the fever would break, that this temporary phantasm would pass,

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Speaker 1: and the American people would become themselves again. And then,

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Speaker 1: of course he thought that the political tide of the

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Speaker 1: rest of his life proved that he had been right

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Speaker 1: about that, that the Revolution of eighteen hundred had been

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Speaker 1: as real revolution as the Revolution of seventeen seventy six.

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Speaker 1: And in a way it had been. And it was

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Speaker 1: a remarkable transfer of power from one group to another

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Speaker 1: in a way that you really don't see much of

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Speaker 1: it peaceful ways up to that point in Western history.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a remarkable achievement on both sides. That

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Speaker 1: is it, Adams in the end is subordinate to the

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Speaker 1: will of the people in a way that say Cromwell

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Speaker 1: would not have been. I think that's certainly true. Although

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Speaker 1: one thing I discovered in writing his book was that

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Speaker 1: in drafting his first inaugural address, in which he doffs

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Speaker 1: his cap to Washington, Jefferson in his first draft intended

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Speaker 1: to say good things also about Adams. But then Adams

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Speaker 1: left town early the day of Jefferson's inauguration, and so

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Speaker 1: he scribbled that part out. So you have now no

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Speaker 1: mention of Adams. And everybody knows that Adams left town

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Speaker 1: and very ill humored of orrow somebody else's phrase. And

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Speaker 1: so the general impression has been, well, the two of

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Speaker 1: them weren't getting along, The parties weren't entirely getting along,

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Speaker 1: and Jefferson didn't intend for that to happen. He thought

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Speaker 1: he could say that these two men had been greater

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Speaker 1: than he. And so he recognized that it was not

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Speaker 1: going to be common for anyone to leave the presidency

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Speaker 1: with his good a reputation as that with which he

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Speaker 1: had entered it, and he thought that he would have

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Speaker 1: the same fate. So he hoped that people would give

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Speaker 1: him some slack when it came to their agreeing with

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Speaker 1: his policy choices or his administrative choices from time to time,

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Speaker 1: because anybody was bound to air in this high office.

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Speaker 1: Jefferson makes a decision the two terms was enough, which

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Speaker 1: Washington had done. Washington actually really wanted one term and

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Speaker 1: got talked into that second term. Jefferson was one of

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Speaker 1: the ones who talked him into it. Yeah, and then

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Speaker 1: of course you've got Adams who'd like to have had

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Speaker 1: a second term but was defeated. In your judgment, why

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Speaker 1: did Jefferson decide the two terms was enough? Well, there

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Speaker 1: are two things here. One is he thought that he

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Speaker 1: was following Washington's example, and he thought that it was

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Speaker 1: a good example. And the other thing is if you

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Speaker 1: look at his thirty thousand plus surviving had written documents

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Speaker 1: from starting when he was a teenager that cover his

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Speaker 1: entire political life. One theme you see running through them

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Speaker 1: is I'd rather not be in politics. I'd rather be

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Speaker 1: home at Monticello. I think I'm doing my duty here,

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Speaker 1: but I'd rather not be. When he was president, he

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Speaker 1: spent much of the year at Monticello, and if he

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Speaker 1: had had his way, he would have been spending he said,

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Speaker 1: he would have been spending the whole year at Monceello.

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Speaker 1: So I think one reason why he limited himself to

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Speaker 1: two terms was he thought it was a good principle.

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Speaker 1: And the other reason why he limited himself two terms

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Speaker 1: was if he's to be believed in any of these

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Speaker 1: many documents in which he said this, over that long

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Speaker 1: period of time, he didn't want to be away from home.

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Speaker 1: He thought politics were a duty, he didn't think they

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Speaker 1: were that much fun, and he'd rather have gone back

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Speaker 1: to his farm. In the middle of all this is

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Speaker 1: a guy who had, at one level argued per smaller government,

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Speaker 1: more limited government, who vetos a federal government building a

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Speaker 1: bridge across the Potomac on the grounds that the government

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be all these things. He turns around and he

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Speaker 1: buys the Louisiana territory, which in a sense is about

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Speaker 1: as big a decision as any presidents ever made. How

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Speaker 1: do you see that having evolved, there was a real

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Speaker 1: question about whether or not technically the federal government could

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Speaker 1: buy an entire territory like that. Well, as far as

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Speaker 1: I understand, the only significant Republican who had any question

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Speaker 1: about this was Jefferson himself. So of course the purchase

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Speaker 1: was made by two diplomatic agents of Jefferson and Madison,

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Speaker 1: who were Republicans prominent Republicans Monroe and Livingston, and they

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Speaker 1: sent the treaty home to Secretary of State Madison, who

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Speaker 1: was giddy at the idea of purchasing Louisiana, and then

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Speaker 1: he forwarded onto the President, who came up with these

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Speaker 1: constitutional scruples. Madison's answer to him was, well, the Constitution

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Speaker 1: and Article too says that the president can enter into

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Speaker 1: treaties with the advice and consent of the Senate. He said,

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Speaker 1: I think a reasonable way to read that is since

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Speaker 1: it doesn't specify what kinds of treaties, that includes what

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Speaker 1: are the common kinds of treaties, That would include treaties

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Speaker 1: of ward, treaties of peace, treaties of alliance, trade treaties,

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Speaker 1: and although that's not true now, it was true then

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Speaker 1: treaties to buy and sell territory. So Madison didn't even

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Speaker 1: think this was a question. In fact, the two of

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Speaker 1: them discussed this question with senators they knew, with other

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Speaker 1: people they knew who were prominent Republicans. And again, the

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Speaker 1: only one I'm aware of who thought it was a

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Speaker 1: constitutional problem is Jefferson himself. And finally Jefferson asked Madison,

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Speaker 1: and he himself drafted constitutional amendments to make it constitutional

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Speaker 1: on the assumption it wasn't already constitutional, and Madison persuaded him,

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Speaker 1: you know, we don't have time for this. Virtually as

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Speaker 1: soon as they had received the communication from Monroe and Livingston,

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Speaker 1: they got another communication from Livingston saying, you'd better hurry

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Speaker 1: up because Bonaparte is talking about changing his mind. Of course,

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Speaker 1: we don't know whether he really was thinking of changing

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Speaker 1: his mind, but he apparently instantly told Livingston, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think this was a bad idea. Let's forget about it.

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Speaker 1: So the idea that they had better hurry up and

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Speaker 1: ratify this treaty was one that Jefferson finally bought, and

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Speaker 1: he said, well, I guess occasionally they're going to be

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Speaker 1: fugitive instances in which the chief executive is just going

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Speaker 1: to have to make a decision and then rely on

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Speaker 1: the people to express their acceptance of it or their

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Speaker 1: rejection of it at the next election. So he says,

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Speaker 1: I think we're going to have to throw ourselves on

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Speaker 1: the mercy of the people. But again, I don't think

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Speaker 1: there was any other significant Republican who had these qualms.

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Speaker 1: I think all the rest of them thought it was

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Speaker 1: constitutional and of course, Jefferson then promptly organizes Lewis and

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Speaker 1: Clark to go all the way to the Pacific and

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Speaker 1: what's one of the great explorations of all time, which

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Speaker 1: of course was done for military reasons at least that

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Speaker 1: was a kind of constitutional cover for it. But Jefferson

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Speaker 1: throughout his life had been a trailblazing ethnoistorian. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I have a colleague as an archaeologist who tells me

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Speaker 1: that the techniques Jefferson used in excavating an Indian man

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Speaker 1: near Monticello were followed for over a century after he

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Speaker 1: publicized them, so they were the state of the art

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Speaker 1: among archaeologists in America until the early twentieth century. And

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Speaker 1: he was interested in Indians, He was interested in flora

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Speaker 1: and fauna. He wanted to know everything there was no

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Speaker 1: and in fact, people didn't know much of anything about

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Speaker 1: the West. One thing he told Lewis and Clark was

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Speaker 1: to bring him back a mastodon. Well, they'd been told

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Speaker 1: by the Indians their mastodons out there. People forget this,

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Speaker 1: but when Columbus arrived in the Western hemisphere, there was

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Speaker 1: no writing. So if you have only oral tradition, you

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Speaker 1: might think that animals that became extinct ten thousand years

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Speaker 1: ago still existed, so he was of course disappointed there

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Speaker 1: were no mastodons, but he was just ecstatic with much

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Speaker 1: of the other material they sent home to him, and

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Speaker 1: in particular, he was very interested in Indian languages. He

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Speaker 1: hoped eventually to be able to prove that man's languages

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Speaker 1: had not originated in the Old World, they had actually

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Speaker 1: originated among the Indians, and when he was president he

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Speaker 1: intended to write a book about this. He took all

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Speaker 1: the lexicons Lewis and Clark had collected to the White House,

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Speaker 1: and of course he didn't get to it. We've had

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Speaker 1: other presidents who wrote copiously while president, but Jefferson was

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Speaker 1: not among them. So he sent this stuff separately from

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Speaker 1: himself back to Monticello. And when it got to the

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Speaker 1: I believe it was in the Potomac, it may have

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Speaker 1: been in the James River. Some guy broke into one

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Speaker 1: of these chests and found that there was nothing in

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Speaker 1: them but paper, and so he threw the paper into

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Speaker 1: James River. And that was the end of these lexicons,

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Speaker 1: which were, in several cases the only evidence that we

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Speaker 1: would have had for the languages of some Indian peoples

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Speaker 1: that now no longer are discreet peoples. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: a sad story. But Jefferson's mind just spanned all kinds

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Speaker 1: of human knowledge. He basically wanted to know everything there

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Speaker 1: was to know, and he hoped to be able to

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Speaker 1: prove as I said, that human language had started here.

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Speaker 1: He actually earlier had been involved in a long running

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Speaker 1: dispute with the leading biologists in Europe, the Comte de Baufon,

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Speaker 1: over the question of whether animals degenerated in the Western Hemisphere.

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Speaker 1: This was the state of the art among biologists in Europe,

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Speaker 1: the idea that because of the environment of the Western

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Speaker 1: Hemisphere that the Indians were shorter, they didn't have facial hair,

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Speaker 1: they didn't have pubic hair, they had fewer children. Per

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Speaker 1: couple their various reasons. He said, the New World doesn't

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Speaker 1: have cats as big as the Old world, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: have mammals of other kinds as big as the old world.

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Speaker 1: There's something in the environment. It's making everything degenerate. And

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Speaker 1: of course the implication was, if you migrate to the

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Speaker 1: New World, you will degenerate. People don't remember this, but

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Speaker 1: at the time American politicians were trying to persuade Europeans

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Speaker 1: to move to the Western hemisphere. So Jefferson and Ben

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Speaker 1: Fanklin took up this cause and argued about this with

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Speaker 1: European biologists for over a decade and finally persuaded the

396
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Speaker 1: world that no, it wasn't true that animals don't degenerate

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Speaker 1: in the Western Hemisphere. For this reason and others, a

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Speaker 1: defender of American Indians for most of his life, I think,

399
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Speaker 1: in terms of the range of their interest and the

400
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: brilliance in our mind, he and Franklin stand above all

401
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Speaker 1: the other founding fathers. Franklin's astounding. My favorite Franklin story

402
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: is I think when he was a very young man,

403
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Speaker 1: the first time he went to England, he had the theory.

404
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 1: Somehow he came up with the theory that the oceans

405
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Speaker 1: must have currents that went in different directions depending upon

406
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 1: the depth at which they were running. And of course

407
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: we now though this is true. But what he did

408
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: was on his way to Europe, he mapped the ocean

409
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: currents by using empty wine bottles, and he had other

410
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,959
Speaker 1: people who were on the ship with him helping him

411
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: lower these bottles in particular depths. And I don't know

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Speaker 1: how exactly they mapped this out. But he was proved

413
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Speaker 1: that this was true, that the ocean was several layers

414
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Speaker 1: of water. It was not just a big soup. Well,

415
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: the two of them are in a different league. But

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Speaker 1: now Madison, who comes along and succeeds Jefferson and as

417
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Speaker 1: his partner in creating the first modern political party. Madison

418
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 1: was brilliant, but it's a very narrowly focused kind of brilliance.

419
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Speaker 1: He's very different from Jefferson in that sense, wouldn't you say?

420
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Speaker 1: I think he only cared about governments at least if

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00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: he cared about anything else, he didn't leave much sign

422
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Speaker 1: of it. So while it was true that Jefferson was

423
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Speaker 1: interested in ethno history and biology, and for more than

424
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Speaker 1: thirty years he kept records of the weather at Monticello.

425
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Speaker 1: They're the most complete records we have from that time,

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Speaker 1: he just was interested in everything around him. On the

427
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: other hand, as far as I could tell, and I

428
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: wrote a book called James Madison in the Making of America,

429
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: it was about Madison and constitution making. The only thing

430
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 1: Madison really cared about was constitution making. He really only

431
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Speaker 1: cared about government, so he of course became highly schooled

432
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: in government and was far more practical than Jefferson when

433
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: it came to government. But it don't know that he

434
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: had any other significant interests. Well maybe Dolly, but he

435
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: destroyed his correspondence on that subject, so we're left with government.

436
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: I see him as being remarkably forceful, for example, and

437
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: spent several months with Washington convincing Washington that he has

438
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: to go to the Constitutional Convention. He is a key

439
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,479
Speaker 1: player in thinking through the Constitution and writing the Federalist papers.

440
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: He's probably the key figure in the first session of

441
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: the US Congress and developing all sorts of things. But

442
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: then when he becomes president. Probably the worst run war

443
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: we have is the War of eighteen twelve, and it's

444
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: kind of like when you got to the action phase.

445
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: It's just this huge dropoff between Madison the writer and

446
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: Madison the leader of a nation at war. Right, he

447
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: was a good advisor. People don't recognize how significant advisor

448
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: he was to Washington in the first term of Washington's administration,

449
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: but you're right. When it came his time to be

450
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: chief executive, he was at sea. And it's hard to

451
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: exaggerate the extent to which the War of eighteen twelve

452
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 1: was a debacle, chiefly because from the top there wasn't

453
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 1: really organization to it. So the United States went to war.

454
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: They declared war after Madison had given to Congress a

455
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: long address explaining the situation in which Americans found themselves,

456
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: and even included by saying, and so the United Kingdom

457
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: is a war with the United States, but the United

458
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: States are not at war with the United Kingdom. You

459
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: should consider what to do about that. That He didn't

460
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 1: think that the President should call on Congress to declare war.

461
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: He was only an executive, so it was for Congress

462
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: to make that decision for itself without any executive coaxing.

463
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: But this war message had given it all kinds of

464
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: information that would have led it to say, well, we

465
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: need to arm ourselves. So after the declaration of war

466
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: was voted, one member of Congress made a speech in

467
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 1: which he said, you're going to go to war with

468
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: the mightiest power in the world. You have no men,

469
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: you have no money, you have no ships. What are

470
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: you thinking? You know? And you'd think, well, the President

471
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: would have considered those questions before he gave Congress this message,

472
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: but he didn't. And so after fifteen years or so

473
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: had passed. When the war was long behind, Madison got

474
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: a letter from a younger Virginian, a Virginia of the

475
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: younger generation, saying he was writing about the revolution and

476
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,479
Speaker 1: he was going to cover the period all the way

477
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: up through Madison's administration. And two of them went back

478
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: and forth, and then finally the young man, who was

479
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: a member of the Lee family, said, well, of course

480
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,959
Speaker 1: there's going to come a point in my book at

481
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: which I have to say something about your appointments. And

482
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say about them, because well,

483
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: the inplication, of course was they were all so awful.

484
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: And Madison, of course didn't have to be told what

485
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: he meant, so he answered him by saying, well, you

486
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: have to consider the factors that a president has to

487
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: take into account in making appointments. First of all, we

488
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: have to have geographic diversity. Secondly, we have to have

489
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: people who have connections. Thirdly, they have to be able

490
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: to afford to come to the seat of the government

491
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: and serve without being paid very much. And an he

492
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: went through all these criteria that he had used in

493
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: choosing people, and you just kind of think, well, you

494
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: can understand why John Armstrong ends up being more secretary,

495
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: even though he was the guy who hatched the New

496
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: Bird conspira during the Revolution, he ended up being James

497
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: Madison's war secretary, and John Quincy Adams, who was a

498
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: senator at the time, said this was the most disgraceful

499
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: appointment in American history. It's just unbelievable. This guy ends

500
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: up being war secretary. And then, of course a show

501
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: in the book, Armstrong was semi competent, mostly because he

502
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: didn't want to cooperate with the president. The President would

503
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: tell him to do things and he would say, well,

504
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: we don't really need to do that. Madison would say

505
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: we'll do it anyway, and then wait months and then

506
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: say have you done this, and Armstrong would say no.

507
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: One thing was. He told him to prepare the approaches

508
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: from Maryland to Washington, DC, and Armstrong said, well, why

509
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: would you do that. If the British were going to

510
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: go up to Potomac, they'd be heading to Baltimore. They

511
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't come to Washington, d C. There's nothing here. And

512
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: so Madison waited several months and then he said, well,

513
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: how have you done about appairing the approaches? And Armstrong

514
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: said well, I haven't done anything I told you before.

515
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: If the British were coming up to Chesapeake, they'd be

516
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: heading to Baltimore. So finally the time came the British

517
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: land of force in Maryland. It marches across Maryland, it

518
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: gets to Bladensburg, they have the famous confrontation between American

519
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: and British forces, which is just a total debacle, and

520
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: the next day the same British force burns down the Capitol,

521
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: burns down the White House, and so on and so on.

522
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: Right well, Armstrong died thinking this was Madison's fault. Right so,

523
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: And in some sense it was Madison's fault because at

524
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: the second time he asked him if he'd done that yet,

525
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: he should have fired him. But that was not his personality.

526
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: So not only did he not fire him, he didn't

527
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: check on the question whether anybody had done what he'd

528
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: been telling him to do, And that meant the approaches

529
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: weren't prepared, and it's not clear that the American forces

530
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: could have held off the British anyway. But that's a

531
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: good illustration of Madison's management style. It really wasn't management style.

532
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: I think it was probably a management style he had

533
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: picked up running his plantation. You know, he could tell

534
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: people what to do and they did it. I often

535
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: think of the British burning the Capitol because when I

536
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: was serving in the Congress, the stone stairway that goes

537
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: up from the House chamber to the Speaker's office is

538
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: in fact called the British stairway because it is literally

539
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: the stone stairway. The British ran up with torches to

540
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: burn the building down. There's still smoke stains in the

541
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: White House too, And of course it then led us

542
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,719
Speaker 1: to one of our first great national heroes in Andrew Jackson,

543
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: which was a story of its own. But now, finally

544
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: you get to the last of the three great Virginians

545
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: in Monroe, who is the youngest of them, was a

546
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: very very junior officer in the Revolutionary War. And this

547
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: is quietly persistently involved other than the Monroe Doctrine. When

548
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: you look at it, do you have a sense that

549
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: they're gradually losing energy by the time they get to

550
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,479
Speaker 1: their third president. Well, the Monroe administration was responsible not

551
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: only for the Monroe Doctrine, but also for an acting

552
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: bolt of the Florida and for the Transcontinental Treaty by

553
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: the time Monroe left office, the United States was going

554
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: to be one of the world's great powers. It was unavoidable,

555
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: and people thought so. And not only that, but during

556
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: them in road administration. In fact, it was the same

557
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: day that John Quincy Adams signed the Transcontinental Treaty with

558
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: his Spanish interlocutor in Washington. He went home to his

559
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: mess house and he found that three, i think three

560
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,479
Speaker 1: of the other guys who lived there had spent their

561
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: day arguing McCullock versus Maryland. So these happened on the

562
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: same day. It's just kind of astounding. But Monroe had

563
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: followed Washington's example in taking tours of the United States,

564
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: and that's where we get the term the era of

565
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: good Feelings. When he got to the great federalist centers

566
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: of New York and Boston, people fed at him. The

567
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: great and small turned out see him. Tens of thousands

568
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: of people aligned the roads to harrah him on the way.

569
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: And of course he had hoped that eventually there wouldn't

570
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: be parties. That was something that Jefferson had hinted at

571
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: in his first inaugural and Monroe did not appoint a

572
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: Virginian to his cabinet. I think because he didn't think

573
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: there should be another Virginian president, and that would have

574
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: qualified somebody for that position. So there are several things

575
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: Monroe did that are of significant importance. One thing we

576
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: haven't mentioned is that Jefferson's treasury secretary and Madison's first

577
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: treasury secretary was Albert Gallaton, who planned to pay off

578
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: the federal debt. And you often hear people say, well,

579
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson's important because he paid off the federal debt

580
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: and he actually paid it off on the date that

581
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: Albert Gallaton had planned during jefferson administration. So that was

582
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: another accomplishment of these fellows, right that they put federal

583
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: debt on the road to extinction. They couldn't, of course,

584
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: have imagined what it is today. By the way, I

585
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: always try to point out to people that with Hamilton

586
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: and Gallaton, our first two great checktors to Treasury were

587
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: both the emigrun Right. Well, I guess it's arguable whether

588
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: Hamilton was an immigrant he moved from one British colony

589
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: to another, but Gallan was definitely an immigrant. He came

590
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: from Switzerland. And it's interesting that he came from Switzerland

591
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: because you've heard the expression dukes don't emigrate. But on

592
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: his father's side he was a Galatini, and the Galatini

593
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 1: family were among the founders of Geneva, and Gallatin's ancestors

594
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: included five chief executives of Geneva. His mother's maiden name

595
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: was du Rosie, so he was noble on both sides

596
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: of the family. And at some point, when he was

597
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 1: in his late teens, he went to his mother and said,

598
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: I'm tired of Geneva. It's just not interesting. I would

599
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: think I want to go to America. And he had

600
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: a best friend from school. The two of them had

601
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: been to the best schools in Switzerland, and the two

602
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: of them decided, well, no, we're going to move to America.

603
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: Did they speak English, No, they just came here. So

604
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 1: Gallant ends up teaching French at Harvard for years, and

605
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: then he decides, a Harvard Boston, this place is boring,

606
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 1: and if you thought someplace was born in the United States,

607
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 1: where would you move? Well, his answer was Western Pennsylvania, right,

608
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: So he moves to western Pennsylvania just in time to

609
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: be in the middle of the Whiskey Rebellion, and people

610
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 1: from Western Pennsylvania elect him it's a crazy story, Albert

611
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: Gallanton's story. He's a very interesting fellow. I think. First

612
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: they elect him to be in the State, the lower

613
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: house of the state Legislature. Then they elect him to

614
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: be in Congress. Then he becomes a senator. Of course,

615
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: the Federalist in Congress make fun of him for having

616
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 1: this thick French accent. If anybody ever had a gallic nose,

617
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: Albert Gealton had a golic nose. In fact, there's a

618
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: funny note he writes to some friend of his about

619
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: his new wife. He says, well, she's not that handsome,

620
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 1: but she's sensible, she's got a nice personality, she's got

621
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: a good family. And reading it, I'm thinking he's describing himself.

622
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: You know that two of them are just alike, and

623
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: by all accounts they got along great. He lived to

624
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: be a very old man. He lived well into his eighties,

625
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: and she was right there with him. He serves all

626
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: three of the Virginians. Yes, he served for over eleven years,

627
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: So he's the longest serving major cabinet member in American history.

628
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: And apparently was a genius. Yes, he was a genius.

629
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: He too was interested in Indian languages, and knew a

630
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: lot about them. Kevin, I want to thank you for

631
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: joining me and we're going to have a link to

632
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: your new book, The Jeffersonians, The Visionary Presidencies of Jefferson,

633
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,919
Speaker 1: Madison and Monroe on our showpage at Newtsworld dot com.

634
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: And I want to remind all of our audience that

635
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: this would be a great Christmas gift. But thank you

636
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: for joining me on Newtsworld. You're entirely welcome. Thank you

637
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,439
Speaker 1: to my guest Kevin Goodsman. You can get a link

638
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: to buy his new book, The Jeffersonians The Visionary Presidencies

639
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: of Jefferson, Madison, Monroe on our show page at Newtsworld

640
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 1: dot com. News World is produced by Gangwich Sweet sixty

641
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer

642
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: is Rebecca Howe, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. Your

643
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: work for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special

644
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingwidge three sixty. If you've

645
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Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingridge. This is news World