1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: Hagel remarks somewhere that all great world historical facts and 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: personages appear so to speak. Twice he forgot to add 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: the first time as tragedy, the second time is farce. 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Nick. It happened here the podcast where when 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: we last left Jayree Bolsonaro, he had locked himself in 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: the presidential mansion, turned off the lights, and refused to 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: leave or talk to anyone. Now Bolsonaro has returned to 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: his ancestral home hospital in Orlando, where he's been admitted 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: for abdominal pain, jointing me to discuss maybe the first 10 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: man in history to be his own Napoleon. The third 11 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 1: is James Hi, man, this is I'm very much looking 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: forward to this. Oh God. I okay, So for for 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: those of you who I don't know somehow have missed this. 14 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: I I woke up on Sunday and ten minutes later 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: this was happening, and I was like, well, okay, I 16 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: guess I'm canceling my dinner plans. Uh, we're doing this instead. Yeah. 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: I think Marx could have added to that quote and 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: then as fast again, and then for a third time 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: as fast. Yeah. We really, we really, we really have 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: sort of left the tragedy cycle on or now just 21 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,199 Speaker 1: in the forest, over and over and over again. Yeah, 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: we kind of need a new word for what keeps 23 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: happening because it's not it's not really a coup and 24 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: it's certainly not a revolution. It's just like an extreme 25 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: reactionary tantrum. Yeah, I mean, I kind of like storming 26 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: the capital because it is what they do. But then yeah, 27 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, like I'm upset that everyone calls it 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: insurrectionism or insurrectionists because it's like they're not like insurrectionary. 29 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: Reactionary is like a power. Yeah, it's like like I 30 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: think like auto coup is closer. But the problem with 31 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: COO is that cool implies that the military is actually cooperating, 32 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: which it isn't. Yeah, that's why they always fail. Yeah, 33 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: we're working get into that more and a bit. But yeah, okay, So, 34 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: so the thing that has actually happened is on Sunday, 35 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: supporters of of UH former former Brazilian president jay Are Bilsonaro, 36 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: who I fled the country to Orlando, I sacked the 37 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: Plaza of the Three Powers in Brazil, which is the 38 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: home of the basically the buildings are the three branches 39 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: of governments, and unlike in the US, they sacked all 40 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: of them. They stored their presidential mansion, they stormed Congress, 41 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: they stored the Supreme Court, and then having seized control 42 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: of the buildings, as cops either sat around joking with him, 43 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: which is actively walked them into the building. Like there 44 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: is a video of a procession of Bolsonaro supporters with 45 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: just like they're they're all walking in a line towards 46 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: the plaza and there's just like two cop cars like 47 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: in the middle of the thing driving with them, like 48 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: it's wild. There are cops taking selfies of them taking selfies. Yeah. Yeah, 49 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: Like I that that one that was the one in 50 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: Puts particularly that was like I feel like that goes 51 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: slightly above and beyond even what was happening with with 52 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 1: the American cops. Like that was some Yeah, it's yeah, 53 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: it's okay. So they get there, they do that, they 54 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: do the thing where they grab metal stuff and they 55 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: break the windows and then they break in and you know, 56 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: they they do classic January six stuff. Um, they take 57 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: pictures there. There's one picture that I found that's I 58 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: think it's in the Supreme Court. That's a picture of 59 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: someone like you can't see their face. It's just them 60 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: squatting on a like facing backwards, squatting on it on 61 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: a filing cabinet like fully butt out about take a dump. 62 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: It's wild. Yeah, this is what democracy looks like. Yeah, 63 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: and shifting on a filing cabinet and government office. Yeah. Okay, 64 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: so like they this this. They don't have a great 65 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: plan here. Um. The thing that they do is that 66 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: so they all do this. They break in, they like 67 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: break stuff, they like take random stuff. Um. And then 68 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: they whole bunch of people sit down on the ground 69 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: and sing the national anthem, uh, waiting for the army 70 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: to show up, because they think that when the army 71 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: shows up, the army is going to join them. And 72 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: I said, the army shows up and arrest them all. 73 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: There's some people who try to fight the police. Uh. 74 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: They beat up a horse cop, which I think is 75 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: funny because apparently this is just every single one of these. 76 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: Now someone beats up a horse cop. Um. But you know, 77 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: by bye bye bye, by the end of Sunday, like 78 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: it's all over the government forces. We take the plaza. 79 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: People try to fight the police, but they lose really badly, 80 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: and you know, Okay, so obviously there's a reason why 81 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: I read that versus strategy a second time. Was first 82 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: line to start this, like, okay, the January six comparisons 83 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: start fast and get harder. Which is this happened literally 84 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: on January eight, like two days after the American Like, 85 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: I mean, they stowed the Capitol buildings. But this is 86 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: something I think it's kind of important to understand. This 87 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: is an even worse plan than the January six plan. 88 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: So the January six plan, if people remember this, so crucially, 89 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,799 Speaker 1: January six happens while Trump is technically still in office. 90 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: And what's going on when when they're showing me the 91 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: capital in January six is that Congress is trying to 92 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: basically pass power to Joe Biden, right like they're they're 93 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: they're doing the vote to proof the ballot totals from 94 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: the the electoral College blah blah blah blah blah. But okay, 95 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: so this means that you know when when when when 96 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: when on Jay's on January six, right, Congress was actually 97 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: in session, so the people who were there actually had 98 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: a thing they were trying to do to overturn their results, 99 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: and there was like there were people they could have harmed. 100 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: There was like they had they had like a goal 101 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: kind of it was like seth Abramson. But on the 102 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: other side, think it was like constitutional fantasy. But yeah, 103 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: but yeah, but like I I can't believe, you know, 104 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: like this is the thing about about about what's happening 105 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: Brazil's like I genuinely cannot believe that I am being 106 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: made to defend the planning capacity of the January six crowd, 107 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: like genuinely stunning. But the plan for the plan for 108 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: January eighth in Brazil was even worse because Okay, the 109 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: day they do this on right, Congress is not in session, 110 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,679 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court is on holiday, and Lulu, the actual 111 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: president of Brazil, has a already taken power and b 112 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: is ins apollo. No money is there. Literally they store 113 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: three abandoned buildings. There is nohing there they could they 114 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: could have tried it. Agration was like three days before, right, Yeah, 115 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: it's funny. Lula talked about it in this in his 116 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: speech where part of like in this speech after after 117 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: this happens, is he has this line about how like 118 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: all of these people were already in Brazilia, but they 119 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: were too cowardly to face the people who were there 120 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: for the inauguration, so instead they waited for everyone to leave, 121 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: which is true. It's really funny. And this is kind 122 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: of what they always do, right, They always kind of 123 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: take the easy thing and then grandstand like like it's 124 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: a big brave thing that they've done. Like we see 125 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: this constantly on the right. Yeah, and you know, I like, 126 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: I I think I think it's reasonable to ask what 127 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: were they actually trying to do? Um? And I'm I'm 128 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: gonna read from the Washington Post. The Washington Post is 129 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: talking about, um, some of the previous attempts to do 130 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: the same thing. Quote one radicalized Bolsonarista named George Washington 131 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: Day Olivaria. Was it what? Yeah, all of the people 132 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: involved with this are named like George Washington Olivaria. It's incredible. 133 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: Do wow did they did they change their names? Or 134 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: is the whole thing just being a lame partake of 135 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: American conservative Well, I mean that's that is like like 136 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: it really like there is a lot of truth to 137 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: the analysis that, like Brazilian fascist culture is just like 138 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: the fourth time of Facebook meme isn't passed around, but 139 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: this time on what'sapp Like it's it's some it's it's 140 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: somehow more cringe than than the American stuff, like it's 141 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: wort have incredible. But here he was okay, yeah he was. Yeah. 142 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: This guy named George Washington Dlafaria was arrested and accused 143 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: of planting a bomb beneath a bus at the Brazilia airport. 144 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,599 Speaker 1: In a statement to police, he said he wanted to 145 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: quote begin chaos that would lead to military intervention. So 146 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: she's trying to do the strategy of tension, right, which 147 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: is which is this thing from Italy where Okay, so 148 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: you you have the government running a bunch of sort 149 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: of like no, I mean, I don't know, calling them 150 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: fake fascist groups is technically correct, but you haven't. You 151 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 1: have them running a bunch of terrorist groups. And you know, 152 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 1: so they they this is this happening in like the 153 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: sixty seventies, and yeah, it gets a little bit into 154 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 1: the eighties. Is that they're they're doing all these bombings 155 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: and stuff, and they're doing all these terrorist attacks and 156 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: the goal is to get people to like sort of 157 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: trust the government and like allow like short of further 158 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: state of military intervention. But the thing about that was 159 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 1: that crucially the strategy of tension was a strategy that 160 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: was done by the government. Doesn't really work if you're 161 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: not the government and you are, in fact that people 162 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: causing the chaos, And where did you get to military 163 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: to sort of join you. So this is a crucial 164 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: problem for Brazilian fascism because as much as the sort 165 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: of the modern fascist movement is a cultiple scenario, it's 166 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: really a cult of the military. Bulsonaro was sort of 167 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: just the person who embodies the sort of desire the 168 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: fascist masses from military rule. But this means that if 169 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: the military just refused to do a coup, they have 170 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: no idea what to do. Yeah, but they could deploy 171 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: Baltonara himself. Have you seen that video of him trying 172 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: to do press ups to prove that he's kind of 173 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: super solidatew you know, But this is this is sort 174 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: of this is a real issue for them. And Okay, 175 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: so if I am pretty confident that if the military 176 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: had actually decided to do a coup this would have worked, 177 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: like and I think they would have pretty trivially just 178 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: like smashed the rest of the forces of the state. 179 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: Lulu would be in prison. But and this is the 180 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: thing that's been the key to everything that's been going 181 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: on in Brazil from the beginning. The army does not 182 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: have the green light from Washington to do a coup 183 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: because once again Biden just absolutely hates Bilsonaro, which is like, yeah, 184 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: you know this this this is this is a coup 185 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: that was planned from Orlando and not Langley. Now we're 186 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: on like number four in the last few years that 187 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: was planned from Florida and notably three of the four 188 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: of them have failed, and this is that Yeah, well, 189 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I like, to be fair, this is a 190 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: better planned coup attempt than the Venezuela one that's not 191 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: hard that did exist bar. Yeah, the kind of bar 192 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: that you can get over by tripping. But you know, 193 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: we're sold the very early process of figuring out how 194 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,599 Speaker 1: exactly who was involved in this and that like to 195 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: what extent everyone was coordinating with each other and like 196 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, I might you want extent like literally governors 197 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: were involved seen to have been involved in this, but 198 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: we don't. We don't exactly know yet. Um. What we 199 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: do know in terms of it's being planned from Orlando 200 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: is that Bolsonaro for literally years has been saying ship 201 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: like quote, the patience of the people has run out. 202 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: I want to tell those who will make me unelectable 203 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: in Brazil, only God removes me from power. There are 204 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: three options for me, jail, death or victory. And I'm 205 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: telling the scandal rules. I will never be imprisoned. Even 206 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: thing is literally years and years and years just saying 207 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: said like that, like just over and over and over again. 208 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: And you know, Okay, So the other thing that we 209 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 1: know right now and this this this is being recorded 210 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: on what day? Is it is the ninth Yeah, it's 211 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: been a court on Monday to night, so this is 212 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: this is the next day. Uh. If by the time 213 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: this goes out there's more information, there will be more 214 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: information was going on what we have right now. One 215 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: of the things that we know is that the guy 216 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: who was in charge of security for the Federal District, 217 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: which is like the Federal District is basically like what 218 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: if washing d C. Was a state, but like a 219 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: tiny one. So the guy who was in charge of 220 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,599 Speaker 1: security for that, uh, was a Bulsonaro supporter who just 221 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: so happened to be on vacation in Orlando, where Bulsonaro 222 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: was staying with an mm A fighter whose mansion has 223 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: a Minion Stein room. Uh. He's just coincidentally onification in 224 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: Orlando with Polsonara. Well, this is happening, so you know, Okay, 225 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: the Brazilian state seems to be being a lot faster 226 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: to sort of crack down on everything that's happening than 227 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: the American state was. Um that the guy who was 228 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: in charge of security, I who was in who's in Orlando. 229 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: That the Brazilian federal defender has already asked the Supreme 230 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: Court to arrest him. A Supreme Court justice like deposed 231 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: the governor of the federal district for allowing this to happen. 232 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's wild. The Brazilian Minister of Justice as 233 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: they've already entified people in ten states who helped plan 234 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: or fund the operation. They've arrested like well the Totalsome 235 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: yesterday said that they arrested four hundred people. I saw 236 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 1: somewhere that arrested twelve. I don't know about that. I 237 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: could be wrong, but yeah, there was at least four 238 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: hundred people. Um, there's a huge like there's a huge 239 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: track down on people involved in this LULA. It's much 240 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: better than the January six response. And yeah, well like 241 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: like part part of what's happening, right, is like like 242 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: Lula literally like basically declared a state of emergency in 243 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: the federal zone and like got basically like I guess 244 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: you call it, like he basically sent in the FEDS 245 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: and like has like his people now have direct control 246 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: over security in the capital because because because the police 247 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: there are so unreliable, and you know, and like he's 248 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: been yeah, it's moving very very fast, just sort of 249 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: better than the US charge and probably yeah, and and 250 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: also like Lula Lula, unlike Biden, Lula, Lula has like 251 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: like literally like three hours as this was happening, he's 252 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 1: making a speech about like that him vowing to go 253 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: after everyone who's involved in this, including Bullsonaro and Um. 254 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: A Brazilian member of Congress is formally asked to Foreign 255 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: Ministry to extradite Bulsonaro to the US. Who knows what's 256 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: going to happen there? Uh, there have been there has 257 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: actually there's been like a surprising amount of sort of 258 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: support for that in the US. And you know, I 259 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: mean that's everything that's been kind of interesting for this, 260 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: like before we take the ad break, is that like 261 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: he's gotten Lula is getting support from like everyone, like 262 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: this is this is one of the rare we we 263 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: we we have the great capitalist triumvirate of Vladimir Putin. 264 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: Joe Biden and and Macron have all said that they're 265 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: backing him, which is wild real international Lincoln Project vibes. Yeah, 266 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: it's I mean that that that that that that is. 267 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: I guess like Hulula is abroad extent, right, Like you know, 268 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: if you go back to Lula episodes, like he was 269 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: close with the Bush administration, but also like close with 270 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: the World Social Forum people. So he's he's always kind 271 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: of like been the guy who straddles the divide between 272 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: like yeah, he's not and he's the guy he straddles 273 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: a divide between the sort of like international imperialists and 274 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: what was the left. Yeah yeah, So all right, we're 275 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're we're gonna go to ads and then 276 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: when we come back, we're gonna talk more about how 277 00:15:48,480 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: everything is actually sort of gone. All right, we're back. 278 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: So one of the things I think is very interesting 279 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: about for all of the sort of planning and organizational 280 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: capacity that's gone into building the sort of like transnational 281 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: fascist movement the American right, like that that the American 282 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: rid has been setting up Uh, the American right has 283 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: just actively been making their allies worse here, like the ideas. 284 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: It's it's sort of incredible. I mean, this is something 285 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: I think that that's genuinely very scary about the Brazilian 286 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: right is that their regular combination of tactics are really effective. 287 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: Um that you know, that they've been able to successfully 288 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: will this combination of sort of electoralism, of lawfare or 289 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: sort of like using the legal system against their political 290 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: enemies off road blockades, mass marches, and you know, just 291 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: straight up paramilitary death squads of various kinds. You know, 292 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: you have your sort of urban death squads, you have 293 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: these like genocidal logger death squads, and that's been very effective. 294 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: And you know, Okay, so like they lost this one election, 295 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: but you know, their their position inside Resilian politics is 296 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: still really strong. They control all a bunch of like governorships, 297 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: they like Bolsonoo's party and his coalition like control control 298 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: the Brazilian parliament. Okay, so you know, like they're in 299 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: a very strong position. But then they talked to the 300 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: Americans and they imported January six and the storm the capitol, 301 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: and at least right now it looks like it's going 302 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: really badly for them. Like even even the sort of 303 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: like right wing all the great process turned on them, Globo, 304 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: which is like it's Brazil's biggest newspaper, wells biggest newspaper, 305 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: It could be second biggest. I'm prett sure it's the biggest. 306 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: It's funded by like right wing ship at billionaires um. 307 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: But you know, their entire fret page right now is 308 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: just them yelling about the coup and like gleefully reporting 309 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: them like like that they had a frit page thing 310 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: for an individual sociology professor who stepped off a bus 311 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: coming back from Brazilian immediately got arrested. Like this is 312 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: this is the kind of sort of jubilation that it's 313 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: really it's kind of it's kind of amazing too, because 314 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: like kind of cut sociologies is also a boson Arst 315 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: insurrection rate. Yeah well okay, I feel like that if 316 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,239 Speaker 1: you're a sociologist, there were exactly two you have, ok 317 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: you have three paths. One has you become a cop. 318 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: Two is you is you do the Italian thing and 319 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: you become the Red Brigades. Yeah. That was that. That 320 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: was That was Italy's first sociology department. By the way, 321 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 1: I turned out the Red Brigades, or three you become 322 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: a Nazi. Those are your three options. Yeah, there are. Yeah. 323 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: I've never been unfortunate enough to run into any of 324 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: the chid sociologies to be a very right, they are there. Yeah, 325 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: we we we stayed away from them in the anthrow department. 326 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: We're like nope, Yeah, I've taught in sociology before, and 327 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: you definitely do get a lot of students who are 328 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: there to be a cop I've forgotten about that. Yeah, 329 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: it sucks. So I will say Brazil has had at 330 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: least one. I feel like they've had at least like 331 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: a couple of sociologist presidents. For Fernando Henrique Cardoso was 332 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: what yeah, what was the sociologist who was president for 333 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: a while and then he got replaced by Lula Um. 334 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: This is this has been this has been a tangent 335 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: about what happens when you put sociology professor's lefted out 336 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: of their cages. Uh so okay, And you know, I 337 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: would say this is going back to global for a second, 338 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: like some of the stuff that they're saying is not 339 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: exactly true, Like they're they're they're trying to sort of 340 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: make a separation between the like extremist Wilsonario eastas and 341 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: then like the people in Parliament and it's like okay, 342 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: so like, yeah, they have this whole thing about these 343 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: are streamists with no support in Parliament, and it's like okay, buddy, 344 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: Like there are literally people like in Congress who are 345 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: in Congress because they were elected because they filmed themselves 346 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: doing right wing trucker borodblocks like you know, okay, like 347 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: well if one of these other things, one of the 348 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: other stories was them talking was them talking about I 349 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: Brazilian politicians frantically deleting the social media post in in 350 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: support of the protests. So okay, you know, like I 351 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: mean it is it is actually true that like a 352 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: lot of like even both people in both to know 353 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: his own party like denounced it. But you know, yeah, 354 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: I mean we saw the same ship, right, and then 355 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: they'll gradually reimagine it over the next two or three 356 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: years to where like that they're they're not denounced again. Well, 357 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: well we'll see what happens, because there is also a 358 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: chance here that like everyone who was even intgentially like 359 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: everyone's like we'll back out of this. I'm not a 360 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: big pro prison guy. But the video of them arriving 361 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: in a coach at the jail was pretty immediate. That 362 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: was pretty funny. Yeah, So okay, so right now it 363 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: looks like this has gone pretty badly for them. Again, 364 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: this is this is This is being recorded one day 365 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: after it happened. So I don't know if if the 366 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: army has actually done the coup tomorrow. It's not my fault. 367 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: It wasn't out yet. But you know, I think we 368 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: should we should ask, we should take a step back 369 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: and ask why is this happening? And I think we 370 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: should we should ask why did this happen in the 371 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: same way in both the US and Brazil and why 372 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: did it not work? And the answer to this is 373 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: that the capital is a trap. What what what the 374 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: American and Brazilian right has ran into, sort of ironically, 375 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: is the crisis of the century revolutionary movement. So to 376 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: explain what I mean here, I'm gonna I'm gonna read 377 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: a bit of to our Friends, which is a work 378 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: produced in late by the Invisible Committee, which is the 379 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: pen name of some French anarchists who are most famous 380 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: of writing The Coming Insurrection. Um. I'm not normally a 381 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: huge fan of their work. But they got they got 382 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: one thing very very right, and that's this occupation of 383 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: the Kasba and Tunis, and of the Stagma Square and Athens, 384 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: siege of Westminster and London during the student movement of 385 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven, encirclement of the Parliament in Madrid 386 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: and September twelve, or in Barcelona on June five, thousand eleven, 387 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: riots all around the Chamber of Deputies in Rome, December four, 388 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: attempt on October fifteenth, thousand eleven in Lisbon to invade 389 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: the Assembly at the republica birding of the Bosnian presidential 390 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: residents in February. The places of institutional power exert in 391 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: magnetic attraction on revolutionaries. But when the insurgents managed to 392 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: penetrate parliaments, presidential palaces, and other headquarters of institutions, as 393 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: in Ukraine, in Libya or in Wisconsin, it's only to 394 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: discover empty places that is empty of power and furnished 395 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: without any taste. It's not to prevent the people from 396 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: taking power that they are so fiercely kept from invading 397 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: such places, but to prevent them from realizing that power 398 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: no longer resides in the institutions. There are only deserted temples, there, 399 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: decommissioned fortresses, nothing but stage sets, real traps, revolutionaries. The 400 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: popular impulse to rush onto the stage to find out 401 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: what is happening in the wings is bound to be disappointed. 402 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 1: If they got inside, even the most ferbrate conspiracy freaks 403 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: would find nothing ur cane there. The truth is that 404 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: power is simply no longer that theatrical reality to which 405 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: maternity accustomed us. Yeah, he gets very prescient and like 406 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 1: and it's we're raised on these myths, right, based on 407 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: left and right, like on the on the right, like 408 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 1: there are these myths of these American institutions which took 409 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: great and unique and shining cities on the hill and 410 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: on the left, like we're raised with the storming of 411 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: the Bastille and stuff like that. As he's the Winter Palace, right, 412 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: these moments have kind of revolutionary change. But yeah, and 413 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: I want to I want to specifically, I want to 414 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: take a second talk about the Winter Palace because this 415 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: is actually something that I think sort of worryingly this 416 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: is uh Nick what is actually talking about this in 417 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: one of his podcasts, Which is that like and he's 418 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: right about this, which is that like the like there 419 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: there there are like you can't actually just store with 420 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: Winter Palace and take power right doesn't work anymore. And 421 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: but but but I think it's actually worth like taking 422 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: like two minutes to lay out why that's true. And 423 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: because the Winter Palace was like a once in like 424 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: a like like a once in a century historical moment, 425 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: and it only worked because and this is something that 426 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: I think people forget. The storming of the Winter Palace 427 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: was not the thing that overthrew the czar. That was 428 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: later That was that was the Febrary Revolution, that is 429 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: a completely given revolution, the stormy of the Winter Palace. 430 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: And the reason why that worked was that the government 431 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: that that that the Polsheviks were overthrowing was Kerensky's government, 432 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: which is just like really dipshit like interim interim governments 433 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: that was only supposed to be their own town election 434 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: happened and had like the most fig leaf legitimacy of 435 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: any government ever. Everyone hated them, they had no supporters 436 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: with but and any of this is why it worked, 437 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: right because when they had no power at all, and 438 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: so when the bulls sh wiks rolled in on them, 439 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: everyone else just stayed home and that is not going 440 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: to work in any modern context unless like I don't know, 441 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: you're like you're you two were also like two years 442 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: in a revolution and there's like three years into a war. Yeah, 443 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: there's like an incredibly fig leave government. Maybe you can 444 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: pull this off. But like that that that that is 445 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: not that is a app reolutely terrible, god awful model 446 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: for attempting to seize like any kind of power or 447 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 1: bring down any governments. But you know, it's it's it 448 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: became because that because that became the sort of like 449 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: mythology of of the Soviet Union, that you know, that 450 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: was sort of burned, the sort of false image of 451 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: that was burned into the certain memory of of Scholl 452 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: collective memory of the left, to the point where like 453 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: most people don't even remember that Kerensky was also technically 454 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: a socialist and that like and that the Actopeal Revolution 455 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 1: was a socialist like a group of socialists overthrowing another 456 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: group of socialists and both of them have a very 457 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: tenuous sort of like it's tenuous and whether they either 458 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: of them are socialists at all, Yeah, and then going 459 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: on to take power and kill a bunch too out 460 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: of socialists. Yeah, yeah, Okay, so that aside, you know, 461 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: this this crisis I was talking about, like this is 462 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: the reason why we're here in the first place. Right, 463 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: it's in large part because of the failure to overcome 464 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: the movement of power out of the sort of palace 465 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: where people expected to be that in the two thousand 466 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: eleven revolutions failed like that that that that that's why 467 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: we're here in how world because people people were sort 468 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: of unable to figure out a way to actually bring 469 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: down a government instead of sort of being like drawn 470 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: magnetically into these traps. But those problems sort of like 471 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: magnetic draw of the Capitol building to will be revolutionaries. 472 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,479 Speaker 1: This is just as much a problem to the right 473 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: as it is the left. And for right now this 474 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: has saved us. Uh, It's caused the Brazilian right to 475 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: abandon things they were doing that actually like are genuinely 476 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: terrifying and you know, could could have been and have 477 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: been effective. Like for example, one of one of the 478 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: cleanup operations that was happening today was the Brazilian army 479 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: cleared a bunch of these people who were trying to 480 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: do blockades of state oil facilities, and you know that 481 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: actually could have worked right like that. Yeah, and you know, 482 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: and and yeah, I've talked about this before and then 483 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 1: the other and the other sort of bols in our episodes. 484 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: But like that, those kind of like trucker blockade things, 485 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: blocking highways blockades like those are tactics that the Brazilian 486 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: rights sort of natively uses. And there's a world where 487 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: the Brazilian fascist sticks to their instincts and instead of 488 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: doing this doomed attempt to strom the capital, they put 489 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: these same numbers of people into trucks with roadblocks and 490 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: burning tires and they try to shut down their Brazilian economy. 491 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: You know, in essence, there's a world where instead of 492 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: doing it October an impossible like January sixth revolution, where 493 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: they do an invisible committee one where they realize the 494 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: powers and logistics and attempting to shut shut down its 495 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: flow is how you do a revolution. And that is 496 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: a world that is a lot scarier than the one 497 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: that we're in. But and you know, I think we'll 498 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: see how this ultimate plays out. But I actually think 499 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: the fact that this was planned for Orlando is like, 500 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, with the help of sort of the usual 501 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: American generation seth crowd. I think this actually really really 502 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: fucked them, like it it really deeply hurt sort of 503 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: the Brazilian fascist drivement, which is good. Um you always 504 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: like when I see that, I was thinking about this 505 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: recently with like um me and mar and everything else, 506 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: Like I always come back like Mark Cusa where he 507 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: talks about the false choice of masters by slaves and 508 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: like how the solution is not this like one big 509 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: sort of like like big I didn't want to call 510 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: it like symbolic kind of active violence, but like the 511 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: great refusal to participate in these things, which is something 512 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: that lots of people have power to do, as opposed 513 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: to doing this stupid ship which centralizes them in one 514 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: place to get some all arrested. Well, I mean it's 515 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: also likes there's another sort of part of this, which 516 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: is that like both in the US and in Brazil, 517 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: the right is not very good at fighting the cops. 518 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: Like they got that one horse cup pretty good. There's 519 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: a couple that like they'll get a cold people, but 520 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: like they're only they only do well when they're really 521 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: like when they outnumber the cops like a hundred or one. Yeah, 522 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: that is different. In Europe. That is a thing that 523 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: like like if you look at Whereasov comes from, right 524 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: Aso comes from right wing football hooligans who like the 525 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: front line and the minda and beat the ship into 526 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: the cops. Yeah. But but but in in the US, 527 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know, everyone's just like do this, 528 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: like it doesn't fight the busy shooting people. Yeah, but 529 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: there isn't that history of like like that's not I'm 530 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: not don't just want to pick on like where I 531 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 1: come from, but like like crowd violence, like like football 532 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: hood against like that that doesn't exist in a meaningful 533 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: sense in the US. It's not as commonplace. And there 534 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: isn't that like institutional memory of fighting riot police that 535 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: exists all over Europe. Yeah, well, I think I think 536 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: the thing is that, like, okay, American sports fans do 537 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: fight the cops, but they only do it once a 538 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: year if that like the super Bowl. Yeah, well you 539 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: know they'll do with the NHL, but things like it's 540 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: only it's only like maybe like three cities a year 541 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: that do it, right, Yeah, and everyone series too. It's 542 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: harder because the World Series has this whole sort of 543 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: like like that they have the parade, then they have 544 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: this whole stage managing to get people to get people 545 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: stop from writing. So really there's only two or three 546 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: events per year where you can get riots, whereas like 547 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: in Europe, any time, yeah, any given Saturday, he could 548 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: be throwing down with a cop on a horse. But 549 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: like it's outside of it. It's gone long beyond that. 550 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: Like I remember in like just before this two thousand 551 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: eleven moment, like the two the earlier two thousands antig 552 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: eight movement, like the institutional knowledge on how to deal 553 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: with large volumes of police and still get your point across, 554 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: just as we saw in twenty did not exist here 555 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: and had to be imported from Hong Kong and other places, 556 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: badly imported in Yeah, but you know infographic from Hong Kong. Yeah, 557 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: So Okay. Having said all of this, this is not 558 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: to say that everything is fine. It's not. You know, 559 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: I think something that's that's very important that I have 560 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: not seen any want to talk about either in either 561 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: sort of generay sic of January eight, is that the 562 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: immediate reaction to the coup on the left, and this 563 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: is as true of the Brazilian left as it was 564 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: with the American left. In fact, I think the American 565 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: lifted American lefted way worse. In January six was paralysis, 566 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: right even in Brazil, which has these sort of one 567 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: body social movements kind of mobilizations, took almost a full 568 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: day and materialized by the type, you know, by which 569 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: point the threat already dissipated. So you know, for a 570 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: for a full day, the only thing standing between the 571 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: fascist and power was their own stupidity. And you know, 572 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: as boundless as their stupidity seems, like watching these people 573 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: like taking a dump on a cabinet, like with a 574 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: camera in front of them, like it's not actually a 575 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: shield against fascism, Like every every fascism after Boussolini and 576 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: even Napoleon the third who's like the sort of modern 577 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: prototype of fascism, has at least one and usually two 578 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: or three comically stupid like uprisings and coups that just 579 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: fail and they failed and everyone lasted them. And then 580 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: number four, they're suddenly in power, and it's like, wow, 581 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: you can't you can't actually write these things off because 582 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: they're funny, because again they're always funny for the first 583 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: like two, and then on number three, like all your 584 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: friends are being bars into a camp and shot and 585 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: it's like wow, yeah, and like we don't want to 586 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: be in a place where like one growing up in 587 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: the room is all that's between us and fascism, right 588 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: like and adult making a plan. And I think there's 589 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: there's a specific like I actually I think social media 590 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: actually plays a really big role in this because you know, 591 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: I can I remember this January six, like, there was 592 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: this kind of like the way that just turns everyone 593 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: into a spectator. Everyone was just like, you know, I 594 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: think it was Vicky Austen, while I think was the 595 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: first person who said this was like Twitter twit. Twitter 596 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: is a machine that turns action into discourse. Yeah, and 597 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: so you know what, while it was going on, right like, 598 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: everyone turned the action of the thing into discourse. Everyone 599 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: just sort of like sitting there paralyzed watching it. And 600 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: that is fatal like like that if if you look 601 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: at the actual stress test of the sort of machinery 602 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: of power, right like, it's actually I think it's actually 603 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: much less of a big deal that the cops were 604 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: on their side of the cops didn't responder because the 605 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: cops eventually did clear them out right. It took it 606 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: took a long time. The cops eventually did it but 607 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: I think I think the thing is actually more dangerous 608 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: is that like there was there, like there wasn't a 609 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: response to the left at all. There's nothing right like 610 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: there there were there were rallies and sell Polo, like 611 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: the next day was actually funny because both both both 612 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: the rallies both like the people sacking the capital and 613 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: the people in sal Polo were both were both seeing 614 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: the national anthem, which is some real fun politics moments. 615 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: It's another thing to talk about. Yeah, but yeah, you 616 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: compare that to Spain, which is obviously where I'm most 617 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: familiar with. Well, like people immediately got guns scott in 618 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: the street and started killing soldiers when they had much 619 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: more effective and organized coup, right, and that coup would 620 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: have failed were it not for fascist intervention from abroad. 621 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, Brazil has powerful unions who did shit. Yeah, well, 622 00:33:58,360 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: and partially I think that's that's like that has to 623 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: do with hallowing out of the unions and there's a 624 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: there's sort of long story here, but like you know, 625 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: and even if you look at like I think this 626 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: is this is a sign really of sort of how 627 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: actually dynamic the left is, because you know, if if 628 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: if you want to look at like like a dynamic 629 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: Latin American left, like they you know, there there was, 630 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: there was, there was a very very well organized US 631 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: backed coup against Hugo Chavez. He doesn't want I was 632 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 1: just one. It was. It was just before I moved there, 633 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: so I think it would. Ah, there were other coup 634 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: attempts in Venezuela, two that were less well organized. Yeah 635 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: she doesn't too. Yeah, he doesn't too. And that one't 636 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: got far enough that like the New York Times was 637 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: like had an article out about how democracy had been 638 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: restored to the Cuba to Venezuela. And then you know 639 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: the thing, the thing that happened after that, and there's 640 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: there's a very famous movie of this from from a 641 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: filmmaker who was just there. Is that over over the 642 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: next forty seven hours, like the left mobilized and they 643 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: put so many people in the street that like the 644 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: coup plotters had to back down and Hugo travil has 645 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: got to be president. And you know that that's the 646 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: thing that that's the thing that a strong left can do, right, 647 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: they can actually defeat the military. And yeah, but you know, 648 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: but this didn't the US just we fell down on 649 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: the job, like there wasn't much of that in Brazil. 650 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: Like I like like it, like it is true, as 651 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: Lulu was saying, that they picked a day when everyone 652 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: was gone. But it's still, I think really alarming that 653 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: just by just by sort of acting first, they have 654 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: so much of a sort of time advantage, sort of 655 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: an advantage of reaction over us. Yeah. That film, by 656 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: the way, people want to watch is called The Revolution 657 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: Will Not Be Televised, which is kind of a great title. 658 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: Spectative things that you were talking about. And yeah, I 659 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: watched that bat Boy and VHS back in the day 660 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: in Caracas. Wow, yeh, big kids. So Okay, Finally, in 661 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 1: a broad sense, I wanted to ask, like, what are 662 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: we doing here right? Um, the sort of dominant mode 663 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: of quote unquote anti fascism, and this is the model 664 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: that's being adopted by Lula and the rest of the 665 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: sort of liberal and even sort of moderate conservative ruling 666 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: class in Brazil. It's what's been adopted by the Democrats 667 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: is their anti fascism is posing their opposition to fascism 668 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,240 Speaker 1: as a defensive democracy and the rule of law. Mhm. 669 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: But yeah, okay, let's look at what's actually happening these 670 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: coups aren't working. That's the sort of actual power. Military 671 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: attempts to take power, they're losing every time. But do 672 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: you know how the fascists are taking power by democracy? 673 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: Their greatest success has been in taking power but just 674 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: winning elections. Like look look at what happened in India, right, 675 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 1: that is a country that has been like very nearly 676 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: totally consumed by fascism, and it was done by just 677 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: elections over and over and over again. Hungry. Yeah, even 678 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: here on a fundamental level, like what we're seeing right 679 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: now out of the sort of broad swath of social 680 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: sort of liberalism, conservatism and social democracy is an unsustainable strategy, 681 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: anti fashion, anti fascism as a pure defensive democracy is 682 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: just preserving the machine that will hand the power of 683 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: the state over to the fascist of a silver platter. 684 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: And you know that like this, this defensive democracy in 685 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: the abstract is a death march. Right, you know, if 686 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: you can, you can you can look at the sort 687 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: of course of of the late nineties, the late century, Right, 688 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: why did the bobs fall over Backdad? Well, protect democracy 689 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: when when the Mexican government was shooting the zapatisas they're 690 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,879 Speaker 1: protecting democracy when the cops rated the when the cops 691 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: rated the Forest Defenders in Atlanta, Oh, it's because they 692 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: were domestic terrorists who are threatening democracy. But what's happened 693 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: here is that the threat of fascism has sort of 694 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,760 Speaker 1: press ganged armies of people who otherwise would be enemies 695 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: of sort of capitalist quote unquote democracy into protecting the 696 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: very institutions that alrea inevitably going to bring these people 697 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: back into power. And that's really grim because it means 698 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: that something has to change or we're just going to 699 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: come back here again and again and again until eventually 700 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: enough of the ruling class flips to back into fascist 701 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 1: that they seiz power once and for all. So, you know, something, 702 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: we have to do something else that's not just this 703 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: that sort of desperate treading water. Yeah, like like fighting 704 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: to stand still in this terrible place where people can't 705 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: pay their heating bills and feed their families. Yeah, it's 706 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: it's pretty dire sucking outlook for us, isn't it. Yeah? 707 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: But I mean, you know I would say this like 708 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,919 Speaker 1: that there was a vision in of what that something 709 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: else could be, right, Like it's it's it's not it's 710 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: it's it's not like we're in the depths of like 711 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: the two thousands where no one has ever seen like 712 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: anything that's taking possible, right, Yeah, Like there are a 713 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: lot of people probably listening because they saw that vision 714 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: and it changed who they want to be and how 715 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: they want the world to be. And I think that's 716 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: really good and uh for me at least, I think 717 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: once people around in the streets, which people weren't able 718 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: to do in time in Brazil, that they will tend 719 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: to find that solution outside of institutions. That the response 720 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 1: has been almost entirely institutional, at least in here in 721 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: this country to a fascist coup because people didn't and 722 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 1: people were tired from your industry and they've all been 723 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: fucking arrested and half of them have been shot. And 724 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: but part of the problem also is just like there's 725 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: there's like the US just has a sort of geographical 726 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: problem and Brazil has this to to sub extent, which 727 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: is that like, yeah, this is not like Belgium you 728 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: can very quickly get people to the capital, Like you can't. 729 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 1: You can't actually like it is actually genuinely very hard 730 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: to get a bunch of people to a place quickly here, right, 731 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: which you know, is a thing where we're lucky that Yeah, 732 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: like that the capital kind of like holding the capital, 733 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: doesn't you know. It's it's it's not a thing that 734 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: actually allows you to sort of take power. But it's 735 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: also a real sort of concerned about politics in the 736 00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 1: US because it can't work the same way it works 737 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: in a lot of places that are smaller. Yeah. Yeah, 738 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: like Bolivia for example. Yeah, yeah, even Venezuela. Right, like 739 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: so much of the institution, almost everything is in Caracas, 740 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 1: even it's a big country. Yeah, that's that's That's pretty 741 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 1: much all I got. Um, Well, we'll see, we'll see 742 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: if Bolstaro when when he gets out of the hospital, 743 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: if he gets out of the hospital, he's returned to 744 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,320 Speaker 1: his social home. Yeah, yeah, it's it's always good to 745 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: see people with with takes on situation in Brazil who 746 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: also think the capital is Rio. That's always a fun 747 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: thing that I can see on Twitter talk on it's 748 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 1: okay not to post you know, this is my okay, 749 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: I have what what are my rules of thumb about 750 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: talking about a place is if if you can't name 751 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: five cities in a country, don't talk about it. Yeah, 752 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: this is the thing that like so many like people 753 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,840 Speaker 1: people people who get paid to write articles about places 754 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: like just fail all that. People who get this is like, frankly, 755 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 1: you should be able to like like, if if I 756 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: was doing due diligence, I would I would be learning. 757 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: I would be actually learning Portuguese right now instead of 758 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: like relying on my Spanish to sort of like power 759 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: me through it. But you know, like the lowest bar 760 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: is you should go the capital and you should be 761 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 1: able to name five cities in it. And if you 762 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: can't do that, like, maybe don't post. Yeah, it's fine 763 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,439 Speaker 1: not to post. In fact, when dealing with coups, maybe 764 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 1: consider options that are not posting. Yeah, and and yeah, 765 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,919 Speaker 1: go go out and stop them. Mhm, make friends. Yeah. 766 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 1: So this this has gonna make it happen here. You 767 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: can find us in the places on social media. It 768 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 769 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 770 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 771 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,800 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 772 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find horses for It could 773 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: Happen here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com. 774 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: Slash sources thanks for listening,