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Speaker 1: Hello, They're happy Thursday. Welcome to another episode of the

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Speaker 1: Chuck Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the two parts sort

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Speaker 1: of wonky if you will, episode that we dropped on Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: focusing really all things having to do that are derivatives

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Speaker 1: of Trump's temporary takeover of Washington, d C. And sort

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Speaker 1: of what he should be focused on what he isn't

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Speaker 1: you know, One conversation about the fraught nature of using

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Speaker 1: the military and domestic policing and why that's likely going

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Speaker 1: to be a huge mistake and if it is expanded

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Speaker 1: even more than what he's doing, how that is likely

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Speaker 1: to be a bad outcome for the future of the military,

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Speaker 1: but also the fact that we do have a crisis

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Speaker 1: of policing in America. And in what I thought the

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Speaker 1: second episode, the second part two of Wednesday's episode, I

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Speaker 1: hope focuses the mind here that if we sort of

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Speaker 1: treated solving murders in this country sort of as the

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Speaker 1: broken windows theory of policing, meaning if you, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you make it a priority to solve murder cases,

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Speaker 1: not let fifty percent of them essentially go unsolved. You

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Speaker 1: make that a priority, I promise you, in every community

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Speaker 1: over time, you will understand, you will find patterns, and

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Speaker 1: you'll likely have some dramatic declines in your crime rate

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Speaker 1: and various cities. So it's a shame that that isn't

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Speaker 1: the north Star, right that instead it's sort of this

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Speaker 1: sort of visual way that Trump, you know, it's this

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Speaker 1: is yet another example right where the what Trump goal

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Speaker 1: is is something everybody can agree with. Yes, we want

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Speaker 1: safer streets, and you know you want you don't want

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Speaker 1: to deal with you don't want to see the homeless

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Speaker 1: on the street. But the question is how do you

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Speaker 1: deal with the homeless and are you going to do

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Speaker 1: something that's humane or are you going to do something

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Speaker 1: that's in humane and things like that. So, but it's

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Speaker 1: too bad he doesn't view this through the lens of

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Speaker 1: the larger Christ is that, Hey, we need more police

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Speaker 1: officers in America, heart stop, we need better training of

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Speaker 1: police officers in America. Heart stop anyway, But I reference

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Speaker 1: that because today's episode is going to be a little more,

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Speaker 1: a little more political, a little more culture, a little

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Speaker 1: more Zeitgei's got an incredible guest today, Jonathan Mahler, who

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Speaker 1: is the author of a new book called Gods of

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Speaker 1: New York. It's essentially the sequel to The Bronx Is Burning.

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Speaker 1: It is about New York City Serica nineteen eighty six

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Speaker 1: to nineteen eighty nine, the cast of characters that's written

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Speaker 1: about guys like Donald Trump and Al Sharpton and Ed

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Speaker 1: Koch and Rudy Giuliani. It really is in many cases,

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Speaker 1: it's in some ways the origin story of Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: transition from just being trying to be a celebrity businessman

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Speaker 1: to cultural figure as well. But it's not just that

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Speaker 1: he takes the book through the p of sort of

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Speaker 1: three three ways that the larger than life characters of

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Speaker 1: New York and the political scene, the AIDS crisis, which

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Speaker 1: was very was within the launch of Act Up Larry

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Speaker 1: Kramer and the movie Do the Right Thing and Spike Lee,

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Speaker 1: and so it's a just a rich convert I promise

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Speaker 1: you you're going to enjoy this. Listen if you just

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Speaker 1: like sort of the political zeitgeist and the political history

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Speaker 1: of the late eighties early nineties. Look, I can tell

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Speaker 1: you it's why it's my jam. I mean, you know

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Speaker 1: that was my coming of age moment. You know that

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Speaker 1: that was you know, eighty six to ninety is when

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Speaker 1: I was paying starting to pay super close attention to

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Speaker 1: politics in general. So it's just a it's a terrific uh,

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Speaker 1: it's it's I think going to be a terrific, terrific Listen,

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Speaker 1: I really do. I enjoyed it doing the interview. I

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Speaker 1: think you're going to enjoy this. Listen. Before we get

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Speaker 1: to it, I want to acknowledge a couple of things. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: some of you, because I've heard from you via text

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Speaker 1: and emails and all various ways, paid attention that Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump seemed to thinks he likes something I said. There

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Speaker 1: was a headline I did an interview with a gentleman

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Speaker 1: by the name of David Brodie who was doing a

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Speaker 1: larger story sort of in the you know, where there's

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Speaker 1: a Democratic Party headed in the next four years, where

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Speaker 1: it's the Republican Party headed in the next four years,

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Speaker 1: and the role of Trump and one of the things

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Speaker 1: I've said, which you guys have heard here in about

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Speaker 1: six weeks ago in a substack column I wrote, which

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Speaker 1: is that look, no matter what you how you view

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, I don't think he's had a bigger you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think a president has had this much impact

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Speaker 1: on American society since FDR and Donald Trump saw the

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Speaker 1: headline and he used it to thank me, which is

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Speaker 1: why it was one of those things, right he And

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Speaker 1: it's a reminder, you know, he didn't actually listen to

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Speaker 1: the interview, because the interview was not necessarily a compliment.

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Speaker 1: It was just a new in this case, a new

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Speaker 1: t observation. Obviously, I'm not convinced that this is going

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Speaker 1: to be a good outcome in the long term of

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Speaker 1: where we are right now, but there is no doubt

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Speaker 1: and there's no mistaking He's not an asterisk in American history.

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Speaker 1: Right he is leaving his imprint. We'll leave his imprint,

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Speaker 1: and it's going to be a generational impact at least

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Speaker 1: on the Republican Party and perhaps on the nation. But

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Speaker 1: I think it sort of tells you a couple of things.

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Speaker 1: I took a couple of lessons away. First of all,

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Speaker 1: I'd said this FDR comparison six weeks ago, but apparently

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Speaker 1: right wing media didn't notice it. Right, It didn't get

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Speaker 1: into the front of Donald Trump's face until he saw

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Speaker 1: something in the Christian Broadcasting Network noting this. So I

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Speaker 1: think one is it really does show you how fragmented

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Speaker 1: we are, and trust me, it's a lesson for myself.

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Speaker 1: You know, you think you're talking to I really want

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Speaker 1: to talk to as wide of an audience as I can.

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Speaker 1: I'm a you know, some of you know this if

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Speaker 1: you follow me on all these different socials. We put

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Speaker 1: our content up everywhere, right, there's a Chuck podcast, TikTok feed,

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Speaker 1: there's a YouTube channel, there's Instagram, there's Facebook, there's Acts,

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Speaker 1: and of course there's the audios on Spotify and Apple

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Speaker 1: and everywhere else that you get it. And yet this,

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Speaker 1: you know, this never seemed to get into his orbit,

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Speaker 1: and I think it is a reminder there is this.

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Speaker 1: You know, we know, we know we're fragmented, but the

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Speaker 1: question is how thick are those bubbles? Right? What aren't

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Speaker 1: we seeing? I'm constantly worried that I don't see everything

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Speaker 1: of the debate, inside of of what's happening in magaworld,

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Speaker 1: what's happening in that specific space. I'm always concerned about

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Speaker 1: what do I know about the Democratic Socialists? What's in

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Speaker 1: that space? And so, you know, I make intentional attempts

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Speaker 1: to find out. But this was this was something I

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Speaker 1: took away. You know, should our content be untrue? Social

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Speaker 1: you know, type of mindset. So that's one. The second

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Speaker 1: is that I think what you realize with Trump just

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Speaker 1: wants to be a store. Trump doesn't care if you

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Speaker 1: criticize them or you praise him, as long as you

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Speaker 1: mention his name. And he's also quite needy, right. It

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Speaker 1: is really you know, this constant need for the snowbell

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Speaker 1: peace price, like he's always looking for affirmation, right. And

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Speaker 1: I was sort of an early person he dealt with

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Speaker 1: in this sort of launch of his modern political campaign.

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Speaker 1: I was one of the first people I was, you know,

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Speaker 1: he and I got into it in twenty eleven when

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Speaker 1: I was talking about how his endorsement was actually a

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Speaker 1: net negative for Mitt Romney. He didn't like that. I'll

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Speaker 1: never forget. I was doing this report on the Today

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Speaker 1: Show about polling. We saw and said, hey, well, actually

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Speaker 1: the Trump endorsements a net negative fortt Romney not a

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Speaker 1: positive and boydd and of course he was the next

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Speaker 1: guest doing a phoner, I believe with the Today Show

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Speaker 1: at the time. This is I want to say twenty eleven,

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Speaker 1: maybe early twenty twelve. I'm trying to remember when he

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Speaker 1: actually finally endorsed Romney. It may have been actually in

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Speaker 1: twenty twelve, and it just he just got cranky about

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Speaker 1: it and it started our telephone relationship. I will confess

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Speaker 1: that front. So look, we've we've we've we've been through

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Speaker 1: it in various ways, and affirmation is something he wants,

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Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter if it's positive or negative.

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Speaker 1: That the you know, acknowledgment that he matters, you know,

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Speaker 1: And I think it's to me, it's sort of I

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Speaker 1: do believe I understand how he ticks, and his reaction

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Speaker 1: to what he believes I said and what he believes

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Speaker 1: I meant, I think tells you a lot there. But

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Speaker 1: this gets me and I want to get into the

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Speaker 1: start of give you a little taste of what I

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Speaker 1: wrote on substack this week, because it goes to it's

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Speaker 1: sort of a reaction to what he decided to do

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Speaker 1: in d C and the sort of the different ways

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Speaker 1: that you know, we talked about it. I think I

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Speaker 1: quoted my friend Andrew Sullivan earlier about how, hey, this

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Speaker 1: is a permanent stain. You know that that all the efforts,

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Speaker 1: you know, during Trump one point, there were real efforts

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Speaker 1: to push back on him, and in Trump two point, Oh,

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Speaker 1: we haven't seen any and the question is is this

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Speaker 1: the right call of the wrong call? And in Trump

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Speaker 1: one point zero was resisting the right call or the

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Speaker 1: wrong call. So let me let me let me sort

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Speaker 1: of take you back a little bit. Look, I do

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Speaker 1: believe this. The greatest political skill Donald Trump has isn't

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Speaker 1: the ability to rally a spase. His great skill is

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Speaker 1: that he can bully everyone around him into believing there

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Speaker 1: are no rules, only winners and losers. And if you,

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Speaker 1: I believe, if you accept that premise the way he

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Speaker 1: views the world, you've already surrendered to him. Hear me out.

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Speaker 1: And I think in this second term, so far, far

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Speaker 1: too many folks have sort of accepted the prentice of

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Speaker 1: winners and losers. You know, they're they're you know, as

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Speaker 1: I've complained to you a couple of days ago, we're

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Speaker 1: not seeing as anybody used the tools that the founders

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Speaker 1: gave everybody to push back on somebody who was abusing

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Speaker 1: the tyranny of the majority. If you will, right, it's

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Speaker 1: total silence there. It's fascinating to me why we had

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Speaker 1: resistance in one point zero, and I think I have

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Speaker 1: an idea of why we don't have it in two

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Speaker 1: point zho because in one point zero Trump did run

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Speaker 1: into resistance, and it was everywhere. He ran into resistance

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Speaker 1: in his own cabinet at times, who would say no,

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Speaker 1: He ran into resistance among congressional Republicans who occasionally pushed

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Speaker 1: back and push back hard. Corporate leaders were willing to

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Speaker 1: take a stand, or certainly didn't want to be seen

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Speaker 1: with him and decided not to be part of the spectacle.

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Speaker 1: Totally different in twump two point zero. Right, that's gone completely.

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Speaker 1: Constitution hasn't changed, by the way, but this time the

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Speaker 1: people sworn to uphold it have decided it's a lot easier,

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Speaker 1: or that they think it's in their own best interest

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Speaker 1: to stay quiet. So the new playbook is clearly appeasement

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Speaker 1: of Trump. And the question is is appeasement working or not?

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Speaker 1: Give him something small, hope he moves on, right, give him,

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Speaker 1: give him a little gold plated award Tim Cook, or

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Speaker 1: paint over the Black Lives Matter plaza, right, Mariel Bowser,

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Speaker 1: and hope it placates him. Okay, there you go, mister Trump.

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Speaker 1: All right, are you happy? Now? Are you? But I

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Speaker 1: think we know and you've heard me say this before.

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Speaker 1: If you give a mouse of cookie They're going to

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Speaker 1: keep coming back for more cookies. And Trump is never satisfied.

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Speaker 1: He is always hungry for more cookie. Question is why

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Speaker 1: is the pushback one? I think Republican lawmakers fear the base,

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Speaker 1: fair primary, and fear personal retribution. It's not manufactured, it's real.

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Speaker 1: You know, talk to any of the former Republicans who

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Speaker 1: did push back on him what life is like when

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Speaker 1: you confront Donald Trump and your own party and what

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Speaker 1: members of MAGA do. Look, I've been on the I've

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Speaker 1: been on the bruising end of the MAGO world coming

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Speaker 1: after me when he's put me in may it put

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Speaker 1: paint at a target on my back, and so I

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Speaker 1: can only imagine it's ten times worse. If you know

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Speaker 1: who's the greatest anger at right, Whenever you have political movements,

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Speaker 1: it's the idea of a trader right, you get angrier

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Speaker 1: at somebody who's a turncoat than you do as your

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Speaker 1: actual opponent. And I do think that that's what many

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Speaker 1: Republicans have faced now in corporate America. While corporate America

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Speaker 1: looks at this tariff regime that he's trying to implement

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Speaker 1: and they're scared, they're scared to death of it. They're

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Speaker 1: scared to death he'll weaponize regulatory and all this stuff,

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Speaker 1: so and they don't and they feel like if they

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Speaker 1: push back, he will simply because he's so weaponized, all

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Speaker 1: criticism is partisan as far as he's concerned, and all

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Speaker 1: Republicans have unified around that premise, and so it really

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Speaker 1: has chilled sort of what I would say are independent

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Speaker 1: actors like corporate CEOs who don't want to be accused

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Speaker 1: of picking aside and think if they criticize Trump, they're

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Speaker 1: picking aside. But if they acquiesced to Trump, they think

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Speaker 1: they're not anyway. Media organizations, right, they're fair access. They

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Speaker 1: fear the regulatory they fear they being branded as a

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Speaker 1: partisan that somehow if that will hurt their ratings or

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Speaker 1: hurt their credibility. You know, not being straightforward, truthful and

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Speaker 1: hard hitting is what's going to hurt your credibility. But still,

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Speaker 1: and then even the courts, right, the courts were much

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Speaker 1: more aggressive at pushing back with Trump and Trump one

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Speaker 1: point zero. Now you've got led by John Roberts. There's

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Speaker 1: this you can you know, a lot of the judiciary

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Speaker 1: is nervous that Trump may just simply ignore court rulings

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Speaker 1: and so it's almost like because of that fear, he's

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Speaker 1: gotten more court rulings that have been modestly favorable. Right,

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Speaker 1: they find a way to give him a little something

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Speaker 1: so that he accepts the ruling that maybe pushes back

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Speaker 1: on another entity of that. So I think that's that's when,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it turned out, right, Democrats have

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Speaker 1: not been very good at pushing back, and part of

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Speaker 1: the reason is there now isolated, right, you know, it

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Speaker 1: was Democrats felt easier pushing back on Trump one point

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Speaker 1: zero because there were Republican voices pushing back on you know,

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Speaker 1: so it didn't feel like a partisan exercise. It felt

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Speaker 1: like a patriot, patriotic exercise. It was real cover. And

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Speaker 1: I think the Republicans speaking out against Trump stiffened the

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Speaker 1: spine of the Democrats. But now what remains at the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party They act as one. They're a sole defense

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Speaker 1: mechanism of all things Trump. I mean, look at the

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Speaker 1: silence into Trump's the Trump trial balloon of basically getting

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Speaker 1: rid of the jobs data. Right, this is sort of

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Speaker 1: the mark of an authoritarian and it's like, this is

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Speaker 1: just a catastrophic idea of just screwing up government data

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Speaker 1: and trust again and not a you know, look, they're

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Speaker 1: not in town, so there's not a lot of reporters

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Speaker 1: harassing them for responses. But there's all, you know, no

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Speaker 1: Republicans voluntarily going to push back. They will just give

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Speaker 1: you blind quotes to reporters saying that this is troubling.

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Speaker 1: And then you've got Democrats split on how to resist Trump. Right.

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Speaker 1: One camp wants to continue to stand on principle and

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Speaker 1: make a constitutional case against Trump. The other says that's naive.

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Speaker 1: You've got to fight Trump on his terms, which, of

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Speaker 1: course is where I'm a little scared. I think the

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Speaker 1: minute you accept the premise that Trump can dictate the

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Speaker 1: terms of the of the fight, you've already lost the

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Speaker 1: larger You've already lost the larger war. Right, you may

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Speaker 1: win a battle here and there, but you're going to

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Speaker 1: lose the larger war, and you're going to lose your

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Speaker 1: own credibility there. I think if you adopt your opponents

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Speaker 1: disregard for the rules, you have to ask yourself what

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Speaker 1: are you defending? Right? What are you defending? What constitutional

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Speaker 1: principles are you standing up for? But the greatest trick

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Speaker 1: that Trump has pulled off is he's convinced much of

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Speaker 1: the country that any criticism of him is partisanship, So

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Speaker 1: that what does that do It It makes it harder

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Speaker 1: for Republicans to feel comfortable speaking out because they don't

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Speaker 1: want to be accused of helping Democrats. CEOs won't speak

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Speaker 1: out because they don't want to be labeled woke. Newsrooms

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Speaker 1: soften their coverage as an attempt to try to keep

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Speaker 1: their access with the Trump administration, and you know, collectively,

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Speaker 1: it isolates it in to a partisan back and forth

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Speaker 1: and somehow constitutional principles are a partisan are somehow you're

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Speaker 1: a partisan actor if you will, And so just trying

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Speaker 1: to hold him accountable is being reframed as bias, right,

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Speaker 1: And that's how much many people consume, you know, no

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Speaker 1: matter how much look I you know, I always say this,

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Speaker 1: you know, I tell my conservative and liberal friends just

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Speaker 1: because somebody's not a conservative doesn't make them a liberal,

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Speaker 1: and just because somebody is not a liberal, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: make them a conservative. But in the world of Trump,

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Speaker 1: everything is binary. And it's why I think it's I'm skeptical. Right,

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Speaker 1: you give him a cookie, you know, give them ass cookie.

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Speaker 1: He's going to come back, right, It's tim Cook done

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Speaker 1: dealing with Trump. I mean, how many times is he

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Speaker 1: going to placate Trump in order to avoid tariff problems? Right?

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Speaker 1: He tried it the first time with an announcement of

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Speaker 1: an investment, then he gave him another chance to announce

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Speaker 1: an investment in the United States, Mariel Bowser tried to

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Speaker 1: placate him, you know, and even now, and I look,

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Speaker 1: she's in a more difficult position than most in pushing

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Speaker 1: back because he has he has legal authority to do

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Speaker 1: what he's doing. And you know, and it's not like

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Speaker 1: she can't accept the premise that she could use more resources.

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Speaker 1: She could use more resources. I think she'd like them differently,

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Speaker 1: but she could use more resources. So I do empathize

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Speaker 1: with the situation she's in and think it's uh and

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Speaker 1: you have to and I I think she's managing it

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Speaker 1: fairly well. We'll see how the next couple of weeks go.

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Speaker 1: But I will tell you this, if you want one

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Speaker 1: fallout from this, if you're the Republican candidate for governor

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Speaker 1: in Virginia, wins Earls hears, you couldn't be more upset

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Speaker 1: with the White House right now, every you know, because

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Speaker 1: ultimately the DC story is not really a is not

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Speaker 1: going to have much impact nationally on voters, okay whatsoever?

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Speaker 1: But do you know who is paying attention northern Virginia.

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Speaker 1: And you know he's already got angry federal workers fired

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Speaker 1: up to show up to the polls in November. Now

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Speaker 1: you've got more sort of you know. And again, as

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Speaker 1: I pointed out yesterday, if you've lived in d C

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Speaker 1: in the DMV for more than twenty years, you don't

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Speaker 1: you do. All you know is improved DC. Right, The

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Speaker 1: long term trajectory has been better. There is some recent dips,

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Speaker 1: but they are nowhere near the floor of what DC

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Speaker 1: was like in the late eighties and early nineties. And

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Speaker 1: so it is. So it is a picture that feels

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Speaker 1: dystopian to many of us longtime residents of the DMV,

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Speaker 1: and that in itself does not help win some earl

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Speaker 1: series in this case. Either. And you know, look, I

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Speaker 1: think being an African American woman, yes she's a Republican,

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Speaker 1: I think she was hoping to make some inroads in

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Speaker 1: a significant African American vote in Virginia. But Trump's actions targeting,

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Speaker 1: you know, a majority African American city in d C

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Speaker 1: with an African American mayor is no way to help

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Speaker 1: Republicans win African American voters. So I will say there's

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Speaker 1: a sort of you know, whatever remote chance Republicans may

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Speaker 1: or may not have thought they had in Virginia. Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump's actions are only are only making that worse, because

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Speaker 1: even if he loses interest in this, you're going to

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Speaker 1: see troops walking around DC, which is such an uncomfortable site.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the irony is he has him walking around

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Speaker 1: the areas that are are are always safe, like the mall, right,

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Speaker 1: like that is not And to me, it proves that

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Speaker 1: this is all performative. Right If if you see a

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Speaker 1: National guardsman walking around the mall, that's him wanting to

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Speaker 1: see they want to see, you know, the tour He

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Speaker 1: wants to make sure tourists see that this is the case.

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Speaker 1: If you actually cared and were worried about the safety

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Speaker 1: of the city, you would be surging these folks in

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Speaker 1: other parts of the city, not at the not walking

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Speaker 1: around the Smithsonians. So I think it's pretty clear this

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Speaker 1: is a performative act for his base and not really

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Speaker 1: a serious act to get things to get things done.

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Speaker 1: But look, I just you know this is this this

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Speaker 1: this inability to push back against The question is whether

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Speaker 1: was the one point oh the way to do it,

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Speaker 1: or is it appease and and just survive the term

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Speaker 1: and move on. And I think I think uh, I

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Speaker 1: think people don't fully appreciate that the collective pushback the courts, Republicans, independence,

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Speaker 1: business leaders, the press collectively. I think that the country

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Speaker 1: was going to vincetia. This is not the direction that

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Speaker 1: this is not the type of leadership that is good

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Speaker 1: for the long term image of the United States, which

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Speaker 1: is why Biden won. But Biden's presidency was was was

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Speaker 1: didn't turn the page right, as as I've said to

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Speaker 1: you before, he wasn't a good enough leader, because a

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Speaker 1: better leader turned help helps the country turn the page.

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Speaker 1: You know, we rarely go backwards as a country, So

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Speaker 1: how bad of a presidency do you have to have

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Speaker 1: to encourage the country to go backwards? And the perception

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Speaker 1: of this of the Biden presidency is just a weak

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Speaker 1: and ineffective presidency. It's possible some of the things he

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Speaker 1: signed into law will have long term success, but the

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Speaker 1: fact of the matter is his legacy is Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: came back, and that's on Joe Biden. But a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have decided they've got to deal with Trump differently,

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Speaker 1: thinking that they're going to get a better outcome, thinking

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Speaker 1: that things are going to get better. And I think

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Speaker 1: that the fact of the matter is that is not

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Speaker 1: how he rolls, and it never will be how he rolls.

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Speaker 1: So I get where we're going. But I will tell

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Speaker 1: you this, the Constitution has all the tools in the

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Speaker 1: world as that brought up to support pushing back in

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Speaker 1: terms that are not partisan. This is about whether we

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Speaker 1: want to stay a constitutional republic where we want these

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Speaker 1: checks and balances, where we don't want an executive branch

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Speaker 1: that tramples over the other two branches of government, where

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Speaker 1: we don't want a fifty one percent majority that tramples

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Speaker 1: over a forty nine percent minority. And yet I think

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Speaker 1: there are way too many entities, whether it's Democrats who

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Speaker 1: are deciding to fight fire with fire, corporate leaders who

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Speaker 1: decide to play kate thinking they can they they're better

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Speaker 1: off doing pay for play, and maybe that's better for

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Speaker 1: their short term shareholder price, but it is bad for

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Speaker 1: the republic, you know, And I you know, what is

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Speaker 1: the presidential race of twenty going to look like? Are

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Speaker 1: we really going to have a Democratic nominee that runs

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Speaker 1: and wants less power. It's what we need to have

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Speaker 1: that both candidates for president. If you want to deal

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Speaker 1: with if you want to sort of Trump proof the

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Speaker 1: presidency in the future, you got to actually have a

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Speaker 1: president who's willing and who asks Congress essentially to take

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Speaker 1: back powers that the Founder's thought belonged to the legislative branch.

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Speaker 1: The problem is, when was the last time you found

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Speaker 1: somebody ran for president wanting less power? Democrat or Republican.

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Speaker 1: So that's what you wonder. And if everybody embraces Trump's

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Speaker 1: vision of winner take all, that couldn't be more antithetical

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Speaker 1: to what the founders wanted. The whole point of the

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Speaker 1: Founder's vision was a republic where no one could win everything.

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Speaker 1: And now I feel like all parts of our small

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Speaker 1: d democratic society are accepting the premise that there is

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Speaker 1: no middle ground, there is no compromise. You're either on

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Speaker 1: your winning or you're losing. And I worry that we've

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Speaker 1: already lost. All right, let me go through a little

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Speaker 1: bit of my campaign twenty twenty six notebook, and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to end with a little twenty twenty five news

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Speaker 1: to go into our conversation about New York City in

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Speaker 1: the late eighties and actually what it will tell you

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Speaker 1: about New York City mayor in twenty twenty five. But

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Speaker 1: let me start with the big development that I teased

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Speaker 1: at the end of the podcast yesterday, which is in

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Speaker 1: California governor. We had two big developments. One was Kamala

430
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: Harris officially saying she wasn't going to run. I think

431
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 1: you've heard me talk about this candidacy for some time.

432
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: I thought I was highly skeptical she would do it,

433
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,239
Speaker 1: and I frankly thought if she did, she was that

434
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 1: it was going to be a tougher race than she

435
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 1: than maybe the consultants who want to make money off

436
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 1: of her were telling her. So I think she made

437
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 1: the prudent decision. I think she made the right decision. Right.

438
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: How do you make the case de voters in California

439
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six running for governor that this is

440
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: what she really wanted to do when if you had

441
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: won the presidency, you weren't going to resign the presidency

442
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: to run for governor, would you? Right? So I think

443
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: she I think anytime anytime you're thinking about following in

444
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 1: Richard Nixon's footsteps you need to take. You need to

445
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 1: ask yourself whether that's a good idea. And I think

446
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris correctly realized that that was a bad idea.

447
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: But the bigger development wasn't that Harris got out. It

448
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: was that within a day of Harris saying now, the

449
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: person who many thought was essentially the front runner that

450
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: was left the Lieutenant Governor, Elani elanikun Ilakas dropped out

451
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: and decided to run for state treasurer instead. And so

452
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,719
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the actual field of Democrats, let

453
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 1: me give you the field as it stands right now,

454
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: without Elani, without Elani's candidcy of Katie Porter, failed Senate candidate,

455
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: former Member of Congress, Tony Akkins, a former state Senator

456
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: leader Javier Bissera, the former health secretary of former State

457
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 1: Attorney General Antonio Viragosa who lost to Gavin Newsom when

458
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,479
Speaker 1: Newsom ran two cycles ago, former mayor of la Tony Thurman,

459
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: the California School superintendent, the state former state controller Rettie Frankly,

460
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: there was no real front runner. Polling showed I guess

461
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: Porter has the highest name I d since she ran

462
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: in the most recent state wide race. But the most

463
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: important development that happened in the announcement by Kolonakas that

464
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: she wasn't going to run one for Treasure is one

465
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 1: of the first people who endorsed her candidacy for treasure,

466
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 1: and it was Rick Caruso. Rick Caruso is the developer

467
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: from Los Angeles. He's a former Republican who became a

468
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: Democrat to run for mayor. He lost to Karen Baths

469
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: in that mayor's race. He's been a very high profile

470
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: critic of Mayor Baths. He's been, you know, pretty much

471
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 1: the face of frustrated homeowners who would like to see

472
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: the rebuild after the wildfires happen at a faster pace

473
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. There's certainly a lot of people who

474
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 1: just have been assuming that Caruso was going to run

475
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: for mayor in twenty six and that that's what he

476
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,479
Speaker 1: was setting up when everything I think I told you

477
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: this a few months ago. Everything I had heard was

478
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: that Caruso, if he ran for anything, that was going

479
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: to be governor or nothing. And well, everything is now

480
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: falling into place as far as people that have been

481
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: trying to talk Cruso into running so and if he

482
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: gets in, he's the immediate front runner. And it's a

483
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 1: fascinating you know, because he is. The question for me

484
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 1: was always is there a Democrat that can run as

485
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: an outsider? Right? I did, the state's not going to

486
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 1: elect a Republican governor, but the idea that they were

487
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: going to elect another insider the next in line, well,

488
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: I was a bit skeptical of Right, We've had sixteen

489
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: straight years of Democratic rule over California. It's the longest

490
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: run any one party's had in California. And sometime, and

491
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, there's always when you see these governors' races,

492
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: they there's usually a natural sort of okay, that party's

493
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: been in charge. You so you back to back Jerry Brown,

494
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: back to back Gavin Newsom. Right, you could almost feel

495
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: this is why I think Kamala Harris made the right call.

496
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just hard to imagine that that there

497
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: was going to be an appetite for that same because

498
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: in some ways she's she's more in line there, right,

499
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: the the sort of a large more of a larger

500
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: than life leader inside the Democratic Party. But I think

501
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,959
Speaker 1: this is a moment where there is this is an

502
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: electorate where you have sort of more you know, left

503
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: leaning independence. You know these are you know, none of

504
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: them are going to vote Republican and presidential race. None

505
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 1: of them are going to rote Republican in the center race,

506
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: and they probably aren't going to rote Republican in the

507
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: governor's race. But they're looking for a Democrat that isn't

508
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: going to be a party land Democrat. I think Caruso

509
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: fits that. That's why I've you know, I've spent time

510
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: with Steve Klubec, the former time Share executive who's a

511
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: self funder. Now. Klubec is a colorful character. As you know.

512
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: He thinks that he and Crusoe will cancel each other

513
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: out and that ends up helping somebody farther to the

514
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: left there in Katie Porter. I think the question is,

515
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: I don't know if if Kluebec is prepared to see

516
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: how much conventional money might get behind Caruso, all of

517
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley could get behind Cruso. He could be sort

518
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: of the business candidate, if you will, and be seen

519
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: as the outsider. Uh. It's a fascinating combination there. I

520
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: just I think at this point, even though he's not

521
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: in the race, he suddenly again, if you're you know,

522
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: if you want to look at this as a pure

523
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: handicap and you can buy early early tickets on who's

524
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: going to be the next governor of California, I will

525
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: tell you right now, you know, I'd go buy a

526
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: ticket on Crusoe as the next governor of California. That's

527
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: and if he doesn't run, then it becomes sort of

528
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: a free for all. And then I wouldn't rule out

529
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: of cluebec or or somebody else. You know that it

530
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: becomes a I think it's a it's it's a much

531
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: different race of Caruso gets in than if he doesn't

532
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: get in, but all signs or pointing to Caruso getting in.

533
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: The other big development of the last week is that

534
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer convinced Shared Brown to run for the Senate.

535
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: Shared Brown had been clearly was going to run for

536
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: something in twenty six He has run, and he's held

537
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: many offices in the state. I believe he's the attorney

538
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: general at one point, but he'd never been governor, and

539
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: there had been some thought that he might be leaning

540
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: running for governor rather than Senate because the downside of

541
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: running for the Senate in twenty six in Ohio is

542
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: that this is a special election. It's not for the

543
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: full six year term. This is for the to finish

544
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: jd Vance's term, which began in twenty twenty two, which means,

545
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: if you win in twenty six, you've got to turn around,

546
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: in like a house race, run again in twenty eight.

547
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: And did shared Brown really want to run three? And

548
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: this is why I thought, And there was some tea

549
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: leaves indicating if he run for anything, it was going

550
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: to be governor, Because is he really ready to run

551
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: for the US Senate six straight years? Assuming if he

552
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: does win, he's going to turn right around and run again.

553
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: He's in his seventies. You assume he would, right, I

554
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: mean in a presidential year, if he didn't run for reelection,

555
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: I think Schumer would commit political Harry Carey like that

556
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: would just be you know, defeat the purpose of recruiting him.

557
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: So that was the main reason why I thought Brown

558
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: would end up going for an office where he could

559
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: serve for four years before having to run another campaign,

560
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: versus getting right back on the hamster wheel, Right, he

561
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: just ran in twenty four, run again in twenty six,

562
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: then have to run again in twenty eight but at

563
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: the end of the day, he got in. I think

564
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: that it's I think he's both the best candidate Democrats

565
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: could find, and I think he's going to have a

566
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: hard time winning. Certainly, he's going to have a better

567
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: shot to win in a midterm than he is a

568
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: presidential As we know, many Trump voters don't are Trump voters,

569
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: and when Trump's not on the ballot, they don't show up.

570
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: I think John Houstead, who's the appointed senator, is a

571
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: very conventional Republican politician, meaning I think he's got some

572
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: vulnerabilities that Brown can take advantage of. But at the

573
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: same time, Housted doesn't have to be the only incumbent

574
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: in the race, right, And I think that that Brown

575
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: has to carry some of that baggage, right. You know,

576
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: he's been in Washington a long time. But in some ways, Houston,

577
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: even though he's the incumbent senator, can say, you know,

578
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: I just got here. This guy's been here forever and

579
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: he can't seem to leave. Right. So that that's the

580
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: in the in the but still you're Chuck Schumer. You

581
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: look at the Senate map, you need to put more

582
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: Republican seats in play, and at the end of the day,

583
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: he put another seat in play, so he got a

584
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: I'm just tempering expectations here. I think this is I

585
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: think Shared Brown has always been a terrific political athlete.

586
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 2: I have a I've always been really proud of my

587
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: Shared Brown impersonation. You know, Chuck, I roll up my

588
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: slaves and I'm ready to go to work. You know,

589
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: the dignity of work. Sorry, I just wanted to show

590
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: off myke. You know, It's not often you can bust

591
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 2: out a Shared Brown impersonation and anybody would care. So

592
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: this was a moment in time I.

593
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:16,479
Speaker 1: Can do that. But it is, it is, it is,

594
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: it is going to be. We're going to find out

595
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: once and for all. Right, if Brown can't win this race,

596
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: this will now be three straight Senate races where basically

597
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: Democrats got the perfect candidate they can find Tim Ryan,

598
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: then Shared Brown back to back. It probably will signal

599
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: a Democratic retreat from Ohio. Do I think it should No? No,

600
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: I think that Democratic Party has a weird way of

601
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: party building. If they don't think they can get a

602
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: majority in the state, they walk away, which to me,

603
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: you know, forty percent matters, right, you should always be

604
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: engaging in trying to build your forty to forty one,

605
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: you're forty one to forty two. But that is not

606
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: how this party thinks. Republicans think this way, which is

607
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: why they're always in a her position to be competitive

608
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: in blue states these days, in the way that Democrats

609
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: are in red states. But that is a it's a

610
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: philosophical problem, right that Democrats got so caught up and

611
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: just trying to win the presidential that they were just

612
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: sort of data analytics and just cared about the seventh

613
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: states they need to win a presidential not thinking about

614
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: being a national party. And if you walk away from Ohio,

615
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: you don't want to be a national political party. I

616
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: think walking away from Florida and Texas has been an

617
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: is an indication they're not interested in being a national party. So,

618
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: you know, I think it would be a mistake, but

619
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: I mean that's what that's what's on the ballot. I

620
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: do want to So the question is what does this

621
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,959
Speaker 1: do for Ohio governor. What's interesting is how dismissive much

622
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: of the coverage has been of a candidate that's already

623
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: in the race, Amy Acting Amy Actin was the was

624
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 1: Mike the Wne's health advisor during COVID, and so there's

625
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 1: been this assumption that she would be and of course,

626
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: like anybody who was the face of COVID, became polarizing figure.

627
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: Now she's less polarizing than fout I can tell you that.

628
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: And in fact, in I I was, I I've seen

629
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: their campaign has been circulating to reporters and supporters and

630
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: potential donors some polling between her and the Republican front runner,

631
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: Vivik Ramaswamy. And this is why I'm potentially bullish on

632
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: Ohio that Democrats might overperform in Ohio. And it is

633
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: because of Ramaswami. He is a The polling indicates that

634
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: he's an extraordinarily polarizing figure already in the state. And

635
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: he's already a pretty well defined figure working class Ohio, I,

636
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: you know, might not be a natural constituency for a

637
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: guy who's essentially been in the world of private equity,

638
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: you know, lobbying in Washington. Part of Doze, right that

639
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: that is that is I I you know, I don't

640
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 1: know if Doze isn't that positive, so he may carry more.

641
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: You know, this polling indicates that there's an opportunity to

642
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: really have him carry. You know, he starts with more

643
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: baggage than he realizes. He's already well known, but polarizing,

644
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: more polarizing than the COVID health director. Okay from Mike

645
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: dowaines from Mike Dwain's COVID response. And there's definitely a

646
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: hard ceiling there for Ramaswami. Okay, he's got the you

647
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: know both you know, he's got the high floor, but

648
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: you know, this is not a candidacy that's going to

649
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: get more than fifty two to fifty three. And that

650
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: may matter both in the Senate race, and it could

651
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: make them potentially vulnerable to losing. Now, there's some Democrats

652
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: that like to see Tim Ryan, who I just brought

653
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: a brief former congressman who ran ran for that Senate

654
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: seat and lost to Vance by five points. And in

655
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: the indication being there's some skepticism that acting can can do,

656
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: can win because of COVID, Like there's this belief that

657
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: and so this is why their campaign. Who is Molly

658
00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: Murphy's the chief polster there, This is one of the

659
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: best pollsters on the Democratic side. So I take this,

660
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: I take these numbers pretty seriously. You know, I think

661
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: she's a stronger candidate than the conventional wisdom indicates. And

662
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: I understand the nervousness Democrats have of just anything COVID, right,

663
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: they think that just anything COVID is But in some

664
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: ways the electorate has done with COVID too, right, It's

665
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 1: it's and I don't know if if Ramaswami is the

666
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: once to wants to sit here and have a COVID election,

667
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: because then it becomes trashing of the wine and it

668
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: could really get complicated on that front. So I will

669
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 1: say this this polling, they're indicated they already had it

670
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: as a dead heat forty seven forty six. Now, one

671
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: thing you about Ohio polling is Democrats always have a

672
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: high floor. Right, The path to forty five forty six

673
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: is really easy in Ohio. The path to fifty is

674
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: really hard, Okay, And so it's not surprising to me

675
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: that this is already a one or two point race.

676
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: Most you know, if you're fairly well funded, you can

677
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: get there in Ohio. Still, it's still a light red state,

678
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: not a dark red state. But it's Ramaswami's negatives that

679
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: and I think whether he has the discipline, what kind

680
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: of candidate he really can be that I think is

681
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: more of an opening here, and it becomes a referendum

682
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: on him, right, and you can turn in a referendum

683
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,399
Speaker 1: on Elon Muskin for all we know, Elon Muskill start

684
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 1: attacking him since apparently he didn't like him personally during

685
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: the Dosee world. So anyway, I am a I'm I

686
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: think Ohio. Look, I still think Michigan is the state too.

687
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 1: That is, you know, as Michigan goes, that is the

688
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: story of the will be dictating the national narrative of

689
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: the midterms. But Ohio will be an interesting place to

690
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: test whether whether the Republican brand can withstand, can withstand,

691
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 1: you know, can can survive in a bad year if

692
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: it indeed ends up being a bad year. Because if

693
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: Republicans can hold Ohio in a year where Donald Trump's

694
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: job rating's under forty five, member shared Brown wins reelection

695
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: in eighteen okay, so you know Donald Trump being unpopular

696
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: was an asset to Brown, but and Trump not being

697
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: on the ballot, so it is. It is I think

698
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: an interesting test here to how competitive is Ohio going

699
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: to be and will be in the future. And like

700
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: I said, I'm going to close with some a few

701
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: polling updates, the Big one, a good poll out of

702
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: New York City, seeing a college. They do a pretty

703
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: good job, so I'm always willing to tout their numbers.

704
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: They've got Mom Donnie at forty four, they got Aty

705
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: Cuomo at twenty five, they got the Guardian Angels founder

706
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 1: Curtis Leewa at twelve, who's the Republican nominee, and they

707
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: got Eric Adams sitting at seven percent. It's pretty clear

708
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: Eric Adams is getting no traction. I've seen a variety

709
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: of polling and he's just nowhere near where Cuomo is. Now.

710
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: I don't you know, I don't think Cuomo's going to

711
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: catch Mom Donnie. And I'll be honest, I think whenever

712
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: you see a politician behaving differently and it feels out

713
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: of character, that that's usually the sign that it's it's

714
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 1: it's it's sort of I think this is a campaign

715
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: that's on its last, on its last legs, you know.

716
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: The Cuomo's trying now, he's trying to be Hey, I'm

717
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: going to be Internet troll and I'm going to be

718
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 1: this and it's like when you try to be something

719
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: you're not, Voters sniff it out and they punish it.

720
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: And this has all the makings of really, boy, this

721
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: is this isn't who you are. We know you know people,

722
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: whether you think you know Andrew Cuomo, whether you know

723
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 1: Andy Cuomo or not, voters think they do. And I

724
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: think this new persona is not going to work. But look,

725
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: this is an important easer because you know it is.

726
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: This my interview with Jonathan Maller If you Love, If

727
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: you Love, sort of the story of what's going on

728
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: in American politics today in many ways, Understanding New York

729
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: eighty six to eighty nine and the Rise of Sharpton,

730
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: the rise, rise and fall of Sharpton, rise, fall and rise, rise,

731
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: fall and rise of Donald Trump. Right, this book is

732
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 1: a good one for you. So with that, i'll sneak

733
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: at a break and my conversation with Jonathan Muller. Well, there

734
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: were a handful of books this summer that I wanted

735
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: to decide whether I wanted the authors on, and one

736
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: that I was really looking forward to is the book

737
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: we're going to talk of my guests of Jonathan Muller.

738
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: It's this In some ways it's the sequel to The

739
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 1: Bronx is Burning. I guess it's probably the some way

740
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 1: to describe it. But what God's of New York is,

741
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: it's a It's a slice of New York eighty six

742
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: to eighty nine. He takes his book. It's basically through

743
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: the prison of of of three three narratives. If you will, uh,

744
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: the AIDS crisis, do the right thing? Uh on, if

745
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: you will, the movie, the Spike Lee movie, uh as

746
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 1: we know and uh uh, and then influential figures including

747
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: the rise of Donald Trump, Pretty Giuliani, Al Sharpton. So

748
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: it's a really rich cast of characters. And Jonathan Mahler

749
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: joined me. Now, Jonathan, congrats, Like I said, I've I've uh.

750
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: This is one of the books I've been looking at,

751
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 1: the only non fiction book I've really been looking forward

752
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: to reading the summer.

753
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 3: Well, that's so flattering, Thank you. Well, it took me

754
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: eight years to write this book, So you know, I'm glad.

755
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 3: I'm glad that some people seem to be interested in it.

756
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: My God. Yeah, Well, because you don't have a New

757
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 1: York accent, I'm gonna make you do your New York

758
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: bona fides here because because you're a New Yorker through

759
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: and through, We'll find out in a minute, why you

760
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: don't have an accent? But uh, tell my audience, you

761
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: know new Yorker. Uh uh give, give, give your New

762
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: York credentials. Sure, yeah, so I was. I was born

763
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: in New York.

764
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 3: Both of my parents were both both gone, were both

765
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 3: New Yorkers. My father was kind of a classic Jewish

766
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 3: kid who grew up, you know, kind of lower middle

767
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 3: class in the Bronx, went to Bronx Science, got bought

768
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 3: himself to medical school, and and you know, my mom

769
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 3: grew up in both in Manhattan and just outside the

770
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 3: city in Rochelle. Then when I was young, my father

771
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 3: got a kind of job opportunity in California. He had

772
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 3: really barely left New York, I mean, his whole life,

773
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 3: so he's like, well, California, Sure, let's try it.

774
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 4: Uh.

775
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 3: We my family moved out to California. My mom hated it,

776
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 3: could not wait to get back to New York. My

777
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 3: father was kind of happy out there. But while we

778
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 3: lived out there, which was like kind of into my

779
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 3: sort of through most of my childhood, there was always

780
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 3: this sense that I was a New Yorker who was somehow,

781
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 3: for some reason living in California, southern California, and I

782
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 3: was like literally rooting for the Yankees and the Knicks

783
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 3: and the Giants, and we would come to New York

784
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 3: usually kind of Christmas time and and then this summer,

785
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 3: and it sort of felt like I always had this

786
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 3: kind of strange sense of like dislocation in a way.

787
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 3: Then when I was in high school, they moved back

788
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 3: to New York, and I, you know, graduated from college

789
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 3: and moved.

790
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: To the city.

791
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 3: And aside from a you know, the requisite journalist stop

792
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 3: in Washington, d C.

793
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: I've been living in New York ever since. You know,

794
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 1: it's funny you say that about you were so basically

795
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: what you're saying is you lived in California, but you

796
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 1: were raised in New Yorker exactly. My father I was

797
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: born and raised in Miami, I always said, but raised

798
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 1: in Iowan. My father was. He grew up in Waterloo, Iowa.

799
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: His father moved they had to move down there when

800
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: he was in high school. He never sort of accept

801
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: the premise, you know, here, I was born and raised

802
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: in the six Borough of New York, Miami, I like

803
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: to say, and yet I've always been raised to hate

804
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: New York. It was a total you know, the whole

805
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: Midwest anti New York vibe that that that in some

806
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: ways has helped me understand politics today very well. But

807
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 1: I always said I was raised Iowan. Like he wanted

808
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:23,919
Speaker 1: me to make sure I did roots, and I would say, well,

809
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: all my I'm not an ioland but all my relatives

810
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 1: are buried in Iowa. It's sort of how I feel.

811
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: And I go back there enough that I do feel like, hey,

812
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: I've never lived a day in my life in Iowa,

813
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 1: and yet I feel as if it kind of feels

814
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 1: like yeah, because hey, there's a cemetery with the Todd

815
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: name on it there nowhere else, you know, So if

816
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: I have literal roots, you know, riding away in the

817
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: ground there, you feel that way. So look, you're New

818
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: York credit. I asked that because when I think about

819
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: Bronx is Burning, which I just I mean it is.

820
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,919
Speaker 1: This is why I love books like this that take

821
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: you back into time and then you're sort of in

822
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: the moment, right and you paint this incredible, vivid picture

823
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: of New York in the seventies and before we get

824
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: to this, but what fascinates me is you were like fourteen. Yeah, indeed,

825
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: so you know when you started researching that book. What

826
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: did you think you knew and what didn't you know

827
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: and how did you sort of square that?

828
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I mean I I you know, I it's

829
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 3: true and that book, you know, more so than this book,

830
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 3: which was these were years that I remembered better. But

831
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 3: with The Bronx Is Burning, you know, I had this

832
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 3: kind of image of New York in the late nineteen

833
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 3: seventies because we would come visit when I was when

834
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: I was a kid, and so you know, it was

835
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 3: almost like, I don't know that you had discovered kind

836
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 3: of an old photograph or something, right, and you were like,

837
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 3: the image in that photograph looks looks sort of familiar

838
00:46:58,760 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 3: to me.

839
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: I'd like to learn more about what's.

840
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 3: In that picture, and so, you know, so that that's

841
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 3: what my experience was with The Bronx Is Burning. I

842
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 3: sort of felt like I was sort of truly discovering

843
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 3: a city that had a kind of it had to

844
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 3: hold over my imagination, but I didn't really know it

845
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 3: in a way with this book, with the Gods of

846
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 3: New York, it was much more the years I write

847
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 3: about I still discovered so much I didn't know, but

848
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 3: it was a little going in I had at a

849
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 3: somewhat better sense of the terrain.

850
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: So in deciding to start eighty six to eighty nine, Look,

851
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 1: I think starting with Roy Cones's death is is in

852
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: some ways great because of what you want to do

853
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: the lens of the age crisis. You have Donald Trump

854
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 1: and all of those things. But why eighty six? Why

855
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: not eighty three, eighty two? You know which? Because that transition, right,

856
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 1: you know, the election of Ed Kotch, I would you know,

857
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: Cotch did feel like there's nothing screams eighties New York

858
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: than Ed Cotch, Right, nothing screens nineties New York than

859
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani, nothing screets aughts New York than than Michael Bloomberg.

860
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, and I assume Coch is a is you

861
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: know is so, so why not earlier? Why didn't you

862
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: didn't start your timeline? Then? Yeah? I mean, in a

863
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: way you sort of answered the question. It's it's I mean, Coch,

864
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: what these these four years? So it's like kind of

865
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: eighty six to kind of the end of eighty nine,

866
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: so you can say nineteen ninety.

867
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 3: It's it was Kotch's third and final term. And so

868
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 3: those four years, which and Kuch, you know, in a

869
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 3: way kind of forms the spine of the book, because

870
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 3: here you have this, as you say, he was. He

871
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 3: was not just the mayor of New York. He was

872
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 3: the mascot of New York. He was he was eighties

873
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 3: New York in a sense, and he had presided over

874
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 3: he celebrified. I might argue he celebrified the position of

875
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 3: mayor of New York City. Yeah, I think that's true.

876
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 3: I mean someone might argue that John Lindsay or Fiorello

877
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 3: LaGuardia had beforehand. But in the modern media era, I

878
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 3: would say, certainly.

879
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: We didn't see John Lindsay do an SNL or that stuff,

880
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, yeah, and that's take

881
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: Manhattan exactly. I mean, on one hand, I hear you

882
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 1: on LaGuardia in the minute I said the words out

883
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: of Coacho's mouth. I'm like, Okay, Lindsay and LaGuardia, and like, yeah,

884
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: but it is different. This was people knew who Ed

885
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 1: Koch was in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely true.

886
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: He was. He was an international figure. I mean he was.

887
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 3: It's incredible. I mean, long long before Rudy became America's mayor.

888
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 3: Coach was the mayor. I mean it was really like

889
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 3: that was you know, people around the country knew him

890
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 3: as the mayor.

891
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 1: In fact, I would argue that Rudy modeled his himself

892
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: after Coach. He'd never admit it, but I think he did. Yeah, yeah, no,

893
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: I think that that's true. I mean, I think you've

894
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: got a point. Yeah.

895
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 3: So, so I was thinking Koch, you know, as the

896
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 3: kind of this sort of the spine of the story,

897
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 3: his last term and his over the first two terms,

898
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 3: which would have been starting the book earlier, so like

899
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 3: seventy eight up until eighty six, he had presided over

900
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 3: this amazing rebirth of New York, right that was when

901
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 3: New York kind of came back from the urban decay

902
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 3: of the seventies. The subways covered in graffiti, the burned

903
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 3: out South Bronx, all that stuff. Basically the story I

904
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 3: tell in The Bronx is burning. So Koch presides over

905
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 3: that great rebirth, and then in the final four years

906
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 3: of his maryalty, so his last term, it all curdles,

907
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 3: it all basically goes to hell, and the city completely unravels.

908
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 3: So I sort of felt like if I just took

909
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 3: those four years when so much crazy stuff happens, you know,

910
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 3: including the birth of Act up, the AIDS crisis, all

911
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 3: these crazy racial incidents.

912
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: From you know, kind of Howard Beach to Tawana Brawley

913
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: to Central Park five to use of Hawkins. If I

914
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: just took those four years, I could kind of tell

915
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: the story of the un raveling New York of New York,

916
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: but also the kind of rebirth that had happened leading

917
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: up to it in a way would be kind of

918
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: baked into the story. So those four years just seemed

919
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: like the right the right way to kind of get

920
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,479
Speaker 1: at the whole picture. So you start with Cone's death,

921
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: and we now know Cone dies of AIDS at the time, right,

922
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: wasn't crystal clear, But there's something about Cone represent explain

923
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,479
Speaker 1: what Cone represents. He's a bookend to the right, He's

924
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,720
Speaker 1: the it's the end of a certain era of New York. Correct.

925
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So I mean Cone. You know, it's interesting

926
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 3: because you know, Cone really was he was kind of

927
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 3: the ultimate New York City I mean power broker in

928
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 3: a sense. I guess you know Robert Moses of course

929
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 3: the ultimate New York City power broker, but he was

930
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 3: the ultimate fixer, right, Like, that's what Cone. Cone is

931
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,240
Speaker 3: a fixer before we ever were used to the term, right, correct,

932
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 3: that's that's a better way to put it.

933
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: But what what he you know, he did that because

934
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: he was so well connected.

935
00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 3: And and really I mean you know that like he

936
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 3: both kind of helped Donald Trump get I mean he

937
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 3: and I should say Fred Trump, who is Donald's father,

938
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 3: who was incredibly well connected politically in the city.

939
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: And to be to be a builder.

940
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 3: In New York, that's you know, you have to be

941
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 3: a political you know, a political player in a sense.

942
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 3: So so it was it was it was you know,

943
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 3: Roy Cone and Trump's father who kind of got Trump

944
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 3: sort of started in Manhattan. And it was Roy Cone

945
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 3: who who you know, really took him around as a

946
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 3: you know, as a young man who moved from Queens

947
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 3: into Manhattan. You know, he was an outer Borough, outer

948
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 3: borough kid. I mean, he was rich, but he was

949
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 3: not like a manhattanite at all. It wasn't sophisticated, not

950
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 3: at all. I mean some would say he still isn't,

951
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 3: but a boy from Queen's exactly, and you know, and

952
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 3: Roy Cone like literally just took him to the right parties,

953
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 3: introduced him to Cindy Adams, the gossip columnist, and said,

954
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,479
Speaker 3: you know, he's going to be the biggest thing.

955
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: In New York someday. I mean that was you know,

956
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: that was sort of Roy Cohne.

957
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 3: Was his entree into kind of society New York and

958
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 3: and rich New York and and into the world of

959
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 3: kind of of money and power essentially.

960
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: So the other two and I want to get to

961
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: the political there's sort of three people and we're going

962
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: to want to discuss the political rise of them at

963
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 1: that moment in time. One is Rudy Giuliani, he's his

964
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: attorney in this period of time, he's getting the mob right,

965
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: he's going to go after the mob. You have the

966
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: rise of Al Sharpton, civil rights activists, and this is

967
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: this is the pick and the visual of Al Sharpton

968
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 1: is the jumpsuit guy. I mean, this was the Al

969
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 1: Sharpton what you and I grew up with. You know,

970
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 1: you know he was heavy set, you know he was

971
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: you know, that's it. Look he was heavy set, tracksuit, right,

972
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: you were just there. You know now you know I'm

973
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King medallion, huge mark medallion. I always say,

974
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 1: I know twenty first century ol and I know twenty

975
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: first century OL very well, yeah, I know, I don't

976
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 1: know twentieth century al. And I think, you know, it's

977
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: funny about and I want to stick with Sharpdon in

978
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 1: here a minute, because Sharpdon and Trump, right in some ways,

979
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: they feed off each other. Yeah. Yeah, And I'm going

980
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 1: to be a cynic here. You know, in the eighties,

981
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: I think i've you know, I'm you and I are

982
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: about the same age. I might be here to younger,

983
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: but you know, my own sort of I was into

984
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: politics and certainly following this, and you're just like, they

985
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: always felt like sideshow characters, and of course now in

986
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 1: hindsight they were anything.

987
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, no to totally. I mean that's you know,

988
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,799
Speaker 3: both of them. I mean, I think it's funny. I

989
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 3: was doing doing my research early on.

990
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 5: I was I was looking at you know, Wayne Barrett's

991
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 5: original book Proposals, so you know.

992
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: City, you got it, you had it. I mean yeah,

993
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: by the way, by the way, there is not a

994
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: book about New York that doesn't go back to Wayne Barrett.

995
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 1: I liked it. I went through this myself with some research,

996
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: and everybody goes back to, well, you know, Wayne Barrett

997
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,800
Speaker 1: has this like stockpile of stuff exactly, hands on, right,

998
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: how do you get your hands on? Yeah?

999
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, God, I don't even remember who said to me,

1000
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 3: but he was, I mean, we were friendly, you know

1001
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 3: in those years when I first film.

1002
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 5: That's how long I've been working on this book. But

1003
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 5: he was still around and helping me out. But the

1004
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 5: proposal referred, you.

1005
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,280
Speaker 3: Know, makes a great pitch for why, you know, why

1006
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 3: why he should write this book about you know, was

1007
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 3: ultimately the first big book about Donald Trump, and one

1008
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 3: of the lines in it is, you know, he's a

1009
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 3: he's he's a fleeting cultural figure who's having like a

1010
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,359
Speaker 3: you know, a great impact on the city right now,

1011
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 3: but you know, fleeting cultural figure, like even back back.

1012
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 5: Then in you know, nineteen eighty you know whatever five

1013
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 5: when he sold that book, it was at a throne.

1014
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 5: Imagine that that was you know, he was he was

1015
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 5: just going to come and go and in again. In

1016
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 5: my you know, also like along the way in my

1017
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 5: research the great kind of New York Times columns Russell

1018
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 5: Baker at the end of nineteen eighty eight, his year

1019
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 5: end column was about all the kind of figures who'd

1020
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 5: had their fifteen minutes of fame, uh.

1021
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: And one of course was was Donna Rice, who had

1022
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: you know, who is Gary Hart's girlfriend took down.

1023
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 5: That was a correct that was that was a correct pick. Yeah,

1024
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 5: she was right there. Another one was Donald Trump, so

1025
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 5: he was less right there.

1026
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1027
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you know, he he you know, certainly he

1028
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 5: was someone who we all thought would would would disappear Sharpton.

1029
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: I mean I think too, and and particularly because you know,

1030
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 1: I sort of.

1031
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 3: Tell the story of the kind of Tauana Brawley case,

1032
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 3: which you know, I don't know, you know how much

1033
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 3: your listeners will know about this, but basically yeah.

1034
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: Go ahead, no, I mean, I you know, I it's look,

1035
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: I've had a conversation with him about this to this day.

1036
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 1: It's it's, uh, you know, he's never fully fessed up,

1037
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: like he will not fully you know, do the maya

1038
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 1: culpa that I think some some of his critics would

1039
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 1: keep demanding. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's right.

1040
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 3: And I would say that in that moment, it really

1041
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 3: seemed like that was going to be the end of

1042
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 3: Al Sharpton. I mean, he had you know, it was

1043
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 3: it was it was clear to pretty much everyone for

1044
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 3: a grand jury investigation that this didn't happen, and then

1045
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 3: at a certain point Sharpton knew that this hadn't happened,

1046
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 3: and he was continuing to promote it. Of course, you know,

1047
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 3: he was he was sued for defamation, he was, he

1048
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 3: was he was prosecuted, but but acquitted by the stay

1049
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 3: by the state of New York for tax evasion. But

1050
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 3: it still seemed like he was he was gonna, you know,

1051
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 3: have his day.

1052
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 1: It might very well spend quite a bit of time

1053
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 1: in jail, and that he should have been on that list,

1054
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 1: that the fifteen minutes were upright like that that was

1055
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: and that was certainly felt like what it was right

1056
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 1: and yeah, and you know, and frankly, just to to

1057
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 1: put a pin, to put a period on this. You

1058
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: had other factions of the civil rights community who wanted

1059
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 1: to push Sharpton away, right, Jesse Jackson at that time,

1060
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 1: you know, always wanted to shove shove sharpen aside and

1061
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: had almost one could argue they were, you know, if

1062
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: he fell, if he blew this good goodbye. Yeah, right,

1063
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 1: you don't get to be in our turf. Yeah, that's right, right.

1064
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 3: And I think it was a combination of there was

1065
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 3: some some jealousy because he was so good at drawing

1066
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 3: attention to himself, and I think there was also some

1067
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 3: some discomfort with kind of his tactics. The amazing thing

1068
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 3: is he he so after Tawana Brawley, it seems like

1069
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 3: he's done, and then you know not not that long after,

1070
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 3: a black teenager Use of Hawkins, this tragic incident, goes

1071
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 3: into benson Hurst with a couple of his friends to

1072
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 3: look at a used car. They're chased by a kind

1073
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 3: of white eight eighty nine, eight nine, yeah, eighty nine.

1074
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 3: They're chased by a white mob. They think they're just

1075
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 3: going to be beat up. One member of the mob

1076
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 3: pulls out a gun and murders use of Hawkins and

1077
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 3: Use off Hawkins' father that that that night is you know,

1078
00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 3: obviously you know, grieving, distraught, but also wants to make

1079
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 3: sure that this case does not get buried, that that

1080
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,439
Speaker 3: it gets a maximum amount of attention, that people are

1081
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 3: are are fully aware of what happened to their son

1082
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 3: and why he was he was he was killed because

1083
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 3: the color of his skin period. And who does he

1084
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 3: turn to to make that happen but Al Sharpton. And

1085
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 3: suddenly this Al Sharpton, who had been you know, widely

1086
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 3: discredited and ridiculed and mocked. Has is wielding all of

1087
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 3: the power really in New York City because the use

1088
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 3: of Hawkins case becomes the whole city kind of becomes

1089
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 3: totally focused on it. The mayoral rule, by the way,

1090
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 3: it's an exactly, it's an electioneer and exactly that elect

1091
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 3: its first black mayor, exactly. And Sharpton is literally making

1092
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 3: the guest list for the funeral of use Off Hawkins

1093
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 3: and deciding which politicians, uh, you know, can come and

1094
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 3: where they can sit. And he makes sure that you

1095
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 3: know that the Ed Kotch and you know that that

1096
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 3: that and Rudy Giuliani are like out in the in

1097
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 3: the hot sun while all the other guests kind of

1098
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 3: file in and then they get sent up to the balcony.

1099
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: Upstairs, you know, and they're not allowed to speak like

1100
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: he's he's he's he's you know, the power birds running

1101
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: the show. Yes, he's running the show. Yeah. So is

1102
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 1: it is it fair to say that's why David Dinkins

1103
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 1: became mayor?

1104
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 3: I mean that was Jesse Jackson's contention. Jesse Jackson, after

1105
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 3: Yusuff's murder, actually said to his father at the wake

1106
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 3: the night before the funeral. You know that some good

1107
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 3: will come out of this, could come out of this.

1108
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 3: David Dinkins should be elected mayor.

1109
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 1: Now.

1110
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 3: Yusuf's father was outraged that he said this, of course,

1111
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,479
Speaker 3: because he was like politicizing my son's death. I don't

1112
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 3: I don't give a damn about who's elected mayor. My

1113
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 3: son's been murdered. But yeah, I think that it was.

1114
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 3: It was because I think to me, the city felt

1115
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 3: like it desperately needed healing in that moment. It was

1116
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 3: it was things had just become so raw, so tense,

1117
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 3: so uncomfortable, and Dinkins was the figure who seemed most

1118
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 3: likely to be able to bring it back together. That

1119
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 3: was his That was his message. Kach was obviously a

1120
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 3: kind of a polarizing figure. Rudy was a polarizing figure already.

1121
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 1: There's one other character here that we haven't brought up

1122
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: who at this point is also a peak of his

1123
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: national powers in this four year period, and that's Mario Cuomo. Yeah,

1124
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: Mario Cuomo is the is the candidate that Democrats wish

1125
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: had run in eighty eight, and eighty eight comes and goes,

1126
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 1: and everybody is even in more like up they should

1127
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 1: have done. Jamar should have run. He wins that race.

1128
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 1: He's a much better candidate than Tacacas. He knows how

1129
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 1: to run these races. And so there's still this like

1130
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 1: he is a he is a giant player here. Yeah,

1131
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 1: but what is he in New York City in that

1132
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 1: four year period? Yeah, so it's interesting.

1133
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 3: I mean he's he kind of looms over the city

1134
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 3: and has you know, has has like a lot. You

1135
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 3: see a lot of interaction between between Mario and Koch,

1136
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 3: and they had kind of a fraught relationship.

1137
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: But you know, at the first they went against each

1138
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: other exactly. They did twice Quoboll beat him for governor

1139
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 1: right exactly exactly.

1140
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 3: And you know what what happens kind of early, you know,

1141
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 3: early in the book in nineteen eighty six, is you

1142
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 3: know another trashic racial incident. Uh was Howard Beach where

1143
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 3: you know, a group of of young black men are

1144
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 3: driving out in Queens their car breaks down. Uh, they

1145
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 3: go into the nearest neighborhood for to to kind of

1146
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 3: get help, you know, get get get themselves sorted out.

1147
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 1: Uh. They go into a pizzeria to get a slice

1148
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 1: of pizza.

1149
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 3: They come out, they're attacked by a mob of teenagers

1150
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 3: with baseball bats. One is chased out into the expressway

1151
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 3: and is run over and killed. So Sharkton is actually

1152
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 3: part of the kind of the backlash. And and they

1153
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 3: he and these two lawyers kind of demand that that

1154
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 3: the that rather than using the Queen's district attorney, who

1155
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 3: has a history of not vigorously prosecuting cases with black victims,

1156
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 3: that this that the that the uh that the the

1157
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 3: demand the appointment of a special independent prosecutor. And so Cuomo,

1158
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,439
Speaker 3: who at the time is like eighty six, is still

1159
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 3: kind of weighing does he want to Yes, he realizes

1160
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 3: that he can't if he kind of fails to do something,

1161
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 3: and and and and the Queen's da is unable to

1162
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 3: like really bring a proper prosecution. It is gonna it

1163
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 3: could like doom his presidential controversy before he even launches it.

1164
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 3: So he actually kind of caves to the pressure that

1165
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 3: Sharpeden and these two lawyers are being on him, and

1166
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 3: he appoints a special prosecutor who who actually like does

1167
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 3: a great job and and and win some convictions. But yeah,

1168
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 3: so you see him kind of trying to manage his

1169
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 3: national image through all the kind of the chaos that's

1170
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 3: going on in New York City.

1171
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 1: And then let's you know, touch on Trump right now,

1172
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 1: what's he you know, he's he's in the trying to

1173
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 1: build up Atlantic City. I believe he's buying an airline. Yeah,

1174
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 1: it was right around now that he that he bought

1175
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 1: the Eastern Airlines shuttle. I think it was Eastern Airlines's shuttle.

1176
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 1: It was yep blots. But he's kind of more of

1177
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 1: a celebrity and he but he would insert himself into

1178
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 1: some of these racially polarizing moments, right exactly.

1179
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, I mean these years kind of track Trump's

1180
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 3: ultimate kind of rise as a New York celebrity. And

1181
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 3: then in nineteen eighty eight, with the publication of the

1182
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 3: Art of the Deal, which kind of launches him into

1183
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 3: kind of a national and really international celebrity, that's when

1184
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 3: he begins to transcend his New York fame and becomes.

1185
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 1: I think when he's home alone and brewsters millions and

1186
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: he starts doing these walk ons exactly.

1187
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 3: He's he's he becomes the the personification of what it

1188
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 3: means to be rich and successful in America. He is

1189
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 3: that that's like what he is you know, he's on

1190
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,439
Speaker 3: Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. He's you know, gets

1191
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 3: himself onto the Forbes list, and he is you know,

1192
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 3: so he's so you see him kind of you know,

1193
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:39,120
Speaker 3: go national.

1194
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 1: And then you see the beginning of.

1195
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 3: His political identities start to emerge, because, as you say,

1196
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 3: he inserts himself into the Central Park jogger case with

1197
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 3: that full page ad calling for the execution of the

1198
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 3: Central Park five, the five five black teenagers who have

1199
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 3: been a used charge, not yet tried, right, you know,

1200
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 3: not to say convicted of anything. He's you know, calling

1201
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 3: for the death penalty.

1202
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: You see him begin to begin to kind of take

1203
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 1: an interest, I think, less in politics per se than

1204
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:23,760
Speaker 1: in the kind of power that one can have when

1205
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: you participate in political debate like the like he's figuring

1206
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 1: out how additive participating in the cultural zeitgeist is to

1207
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 1: his Personay exactly, he's.

1208
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 3: Not he's not running for anything, and he's not thinking

1209
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 3: about running for anything, but he is he's aware that

1210
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 3: like being part of the conversation can be is useful

1211
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 3: to him.

1212
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 1: So we've we've look, I've done gone deep on the

1213
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 1: political side of things. So explain how you weave in

1214
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: the AIGE crisis. Yeah, so I mean.

1215
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 3: The the these are also the years that the AIDS

1216
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 3: crisis predates the is yours.

1217
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 1: But in nineteen eighty six is kind of the year

1218
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: when it goes from being you know, really like an

1219
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 1: epidemic that like primarily afflicts the gay community into something

1220
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 1: that is, you know, just right around Ryan White. This

1221
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 1: was a little bit earlier than Ry but yeah, I

1222
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 1: want to say Ryan White was eighty seven, eighty eight.

1223
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: I don't know why that could be. Yeah, yeah, when

1224
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 1: we started, there was the blood transfusion moment. Right, this

1225
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 1: is a full panic. This was not a gay disease.

1226
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 1: This is exact everybody disease.

1227
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:37,439
Speaker 3: Yes, this was a that's when that's when the AIDS

1228
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:39,840
Speaker 3: kind of panic begins in a way, right as you

1229
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 3: said with Ryan White. But kind of almost more important

1230
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 3: to my story is the rise of act up so

1231
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 3: in Larry Kramer, So, these are the years when, yes,

1232
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 3: when you suddenly have a sense in that that really

1233
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 3: like begins in the gay community. That is just like, Okay,

1234
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 3: this has been killing so many of our friends and

1235
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 3: loved ones, this disease for five years now, six years

1236
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 3: by eighty seven, and no one seems to care. No

1237
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 3: one is putting any resources, any energy. Where is the anger?

1238
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:18,120
Speaker 3: Where is the outrage? And a new protest movement is born,

1239
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 3: and that protest movement that you know that Larry Kramer

1240
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:25,800
Speaker 3: really is is the principal architect i act Up is.

1241
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:27,600
Speaker 3: In many ways, it's kind of a mirror of the

1242
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 3: protest movement that Al Sharpton is building during these years,

1243
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 3: you know, and it's equally kind of in your face,

1244
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 3: it's equally controversial. It's equally built around the idea that like,

1245
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:42,240
Speaker 3: if you can get headlines, you can get people to

1246
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 3: pay attention to you, you're getting somewhere. So so that

1247
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 3: you know, the AID story is kind of largely told

1248
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:52,559
Speaker 3: in my book through through through the story of Act Up.

1249
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 1: But it was an amazing thing in the city because

1250
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:56,080
Speaker 1: during these.

1251
01:08:56,000 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 3: Years, in certain communities and certain industries, aids was it

1252
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:04,920
Speaker 3: was all that mattered. It was everything. I mean, if

1253
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:06,960
Speaker 3: you worked in fashion, if you worked in theater, if

1254
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:10,959
Speaker 3: you worked in the art world, you you you knew.

1255
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:13,559
Speaker 1: So by the way, huge communities in New York City

1256
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 1: a gigantic sort of you know, sort of and somewhat.

1257
01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:21,160
Speaker 3: In Schiller communities. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think that's

1258
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:24,640
Speaker 3: that's that's totally right. And I think that you go

1259
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 3: out so inside those communities, this was AIDS was everything.

1260
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 3: It's was your your day to day life. You go

1261
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:32,559
Speaker 3: outside them and it was it was something else altogether.

1262
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 3: It was this you know, this this gay disease that

1263
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 3: you then became this epidemic that was you know, coming

1264
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:38,519
Speaker 3: for you too.

1265
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 1: If you don't wash your hands and you don't you know,

1266
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 1: well what also I guess added to and you know, look,

1267
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 1: I remembered during the obituaries of Larry Kramer about the

1268
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:52,559
Speaker 1: various you know, whether it was his relationship with Fauci

1269
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:56,080
Speaker 1: or his relationship with Ed Koch, but let's talk about Coch. Yeah,

1270
01:09:56,160 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 1: because look there the there was real personal anger that

1271
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:06,160
Speaker 1: Koch wasn't meeting the moment, yeah, yeah, and you know,

1272
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:09,640
Speaker 1: pressuring him to come out, pressuring him to sort of

1273
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:12,640
Speaker 1: you know, these these are your you know, this is

1274
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:15,760
Speaker 1: your community to there Koch and there, and you know

1275
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:19,559
Speaker 1: it is in some ways it's remarkable he wasn't outed then,

1276
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:21,760
Speaker 1: and I guess you could argue that he was kind

1277
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 1: of but I don't know how, I don't know what

1278
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:27,639
Speaker 1: the definition of that is. Back when you look back.

1279
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 1: But whether he was officially outed or not, yeah, I

1280
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 1: mean he was not.

1281
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:37,640
Speaker 3: Kramer tried and at one point in in you know,

1282
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 3: in the in the story of my book, I mean

1283
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 3: you you you know, I sort of show Larry Kramer really,

1284
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:46,440
Speaker 3: I mean, launching a crusade to try to get newspaper

1285
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:50,920
Speaker 3: reporters to write about He meets Kotcha's, you know, a

1286
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:53,599
Speaker 3: lover of former lover of Cotchias, and he is trying

1287
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 3: to convince this guy to go public.

1288
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:58,040
Speaker 1: The guy doesn't. Now the whole reason is because he's

1289
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:01,080
Speaker 1: trying to force more attention onto the AIDS crisis. He's

1290
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 1: not doing it to just her. I mean, look, I'm

1291
01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 1: not going to sit here and justify what he did.

1292
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 1: But his motivation was he thought if the mayor of

1293
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 1: New York City was openly gay, America might notice there's

1294
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:13,639
Speaker 1: an AIDS crisis. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that that's right.

1295
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,919
Speaker 3: And it was always his contention that it was because

1296
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:19,960
Speaker 3: Coach was in the closet and was so afraid of

1297
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 3: being outed that he didn't devote more resources and attention

1298
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 3: to AIDS because he didn't want to bring more attention

1299
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:28,639
Speaker 3: to the gay community and have people start to start

1300
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 3: talking about his sexualities.

1301
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:33,760
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this thirty being able to

1302
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 1: report this thirty years later, was Kramer right.

1303
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:45,120
Speaker 4: In terms of Coach is provoided on Ags Cotch is

1304
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 4: that Coach's approach to the age crisis was far too influenced.

1305
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:52,800
Speaker 1: On his own with his own insecurity.

1306
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:58,600
Speaker 3: So I think that that I think that that like subconsciously,

1307
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 3: quite possibly, I don't think there's any Having really spent

1308
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 3: a lot of time digging into this, I don't think

1309
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 3: there's any real evidence that Koch was, like, to me,

1310
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 3: what was motivating Couch And there's no question that Cotch

1311
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:16,800
Speaker 3: like totally failed to deal with the AIDS crisis when

1312
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 3: he should have. But to me, it was more on

1313
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 3: the at least like kind of you know, on a

1314
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 3: conscious level, it was more about Coach's desperate desire.

1315
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 1: To cut the city's budget and to not spend.

1316
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 3: He didn't want to spend the money he was trying

1317
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:34,639
Speaker 3: to like, you know, get the city moving again, trying

1318
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:37,160
Speaker 3: to trying to shrink the government. So I think he

1319
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:41,280
Speaker 3: didn't want to acknowledge that the possibility of what could

1320
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:45,559
Speaker 3: what was going to become a very expensive epidemic. I

1321
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 3: think unconsciously, it is quite possible that he was, you know,

1322
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:54,240
Speaker 3: because because he he he like just hated the subject

1323
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:58,559
Speaker 3: of his sexuality, like hated hated talking about it. He

1324
01:12:59,080 --> 01:13:02,040
Speaker 3: was lived literally in fear of this. Was his greatest

1325
01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:05,479
Speaker 3: fear was that he would be outed. So it's hard

1326
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:09,160
Speaker 3: to imagine that it wasn't somehow playing into his decision

1327
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:13,800
Speaker 3: making process. Was that fear because of his political career?

1328
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:16,880
Speaker 3: Was there is there is this go back to familiar

1329
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:19,680
Speaker 3: Was there a family thing that hung over I think

1330
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 3: it was it was a combination of his political career

1331
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:25,200
Speaker 3: because this was a very different time, you know, I

1332
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 3: mean it was was you know, you didn't have out

1333
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:32,600
Speaker 3: politicians in the nineteen eighties, but it was or I

1334
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:34,519
Speaker 3: mean at least not you know, you did in some

1335
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:36,639
Speaker 3: place in San Francisco Shore, but yeah.

1336
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 1: Not not in not in New York, and not in

1337
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:38,920
Speaker 1: most cities.

1338
01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 3: And I think it was a combination of that, and

1339
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:46,560
Speaker 3: he was he was of a different generation. So already

1340
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 3: you know, he's he's he's a guy who fought in

1341
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 3: World War Two, who you know, came from a you know,

1342
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:55,639
Speaker 3: Jewish family and grew up in the Bronks, and he's

1343
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:58,760
Speaker 3: he just was not I think he just could not

1344
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 3: get comfortable with the idea on a kind of a

1345
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:04,759
Speaker 3: personal level as well.

1346
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:11,640
Speaker 1: Interesting, let's talk about do the right thing, because I

1347
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 1: guess and I'm curious. You know, it's so funny. My

1348
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:19,799
Speaker 1: own experience with the movie is I had a cousin

1349
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 1: was visiting. I was in high school and he was

1350
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 1: in college, and he and his friend were basically crashing

1351
01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:31,280
Speaker 1: at our house before going down to the keys, and

1352
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 1: he says, Hey, my my friend and I we're going

1353
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 1: to go see this movie by this guy, Spike Lee.

1354
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,439
Speaker 1: We found a place because they were from a small

1355
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:42,360
Speaker 1: college town that wasn't showing anywhere, and back then, Spike

1356
01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,280
Speaker 1: Lee didn't get a big distribution, and there was one

1357
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 1: theater in Miami that was showing him. And he's like,

1358
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:49,439
Speaker 1: do you want to go? I was like sure, you know,

1359
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 1: and we were the only three white people in the theater. Yeah. Wow,

1360
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:56,160
Speaker 1: this was And so it's really been you know, so

1361
01:14:56,439 --> 01:14:59,519
Speaker 1: I always feel as if, like, you know, I, you know,

1362
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 1: I saw Spike I got to see Spike Lee before

1363
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:04,760
Speaker 1: he went mainstream, right before he broke into into the

1364
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 1: majority culture, right he was trying to you know, and

1365
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:13,200
Speaker 1: that movie. I mean, that movie lingered in in my education.

1366
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:17,400
Speaker 1: I had a multiple English professors in college, had you

1367
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:20,280
Speaker 1: it was used so much, so it is such a

1368
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 1: rich yeah, you know, to this day, I think it's

1369
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 1: his best piece of political work. Okay, I mean it

1370
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:29,639
Speaker 1: may not be the best movie. Okay, we can talk

1371
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:35,040
Speaker 1: about that, but it really is. It really does paint

1372
01:15:35,040 --> 01:15:37,000
Speaker 1: a picture, and in some ways it's a picture that

1373
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:40,080
Speaker 1: was starting starting to go right. This was when the

1374
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:42,720
Speaker 1: movie came out. This is actually when New York's about to.

1375
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 5: Turn the corner, right yeah yeah, yeah, well first it's

1376
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:47,920
Speaker 5: going to blow up once more, and that's going to

1377
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:48,599
Speaker 5: turn the corner.

1378
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, no, it's amazing.

1379
01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 3: One incredible thing about that movie is like, of course

1380
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:56,640
Speaker 3: you remember that that going to see it, So that

1381
01:15:56,800 --> 01:16:00,920
Speaker 3: is like just a universal experience. Everyone who remember where

1382
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:03,280
Speaker 3: they were when the movie came out and where they

1383
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:05,840
Speaker 3: saw it, and what the the atmosphere was in the theater,

1384
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 3: and it's like it's it was.

1385
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:09,400
Speaker 1: I feel like I discovered a new thing, you know,

1386
01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:10,679
Speaker 1: the way you feel as a kid.

1387
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 2: You know.

1388
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:12,960
Speaker 1: I used to joke that every thirteen year old discovers

1389
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 1: led Zeppelin for the first time, at least it would

1390
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:16,840
Speaker 1: certain you know, I have a kid, but you think

1391
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:19,120
Speaker 1: or oh my god, you got to take a listen

1392
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:20,640
Speaker 1: to this, and was like and you know, and then

1393
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,439
Speaker 1: I immediately watched. Just at that point, I think it

1394
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:25,760
Speaker 1: was he had already had a movie that was out.

1395
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 1: She's got to have it, you got to have it.

1396
01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 1: I was like, I gotta go find that movie. And

1397
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:31,600
Speaker 1: it was like finding the video store that had that,

1398
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:33,840
Speaker 1: And you know, I became sort of one of the

1399
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:35,880
Speaker 1: you know, early because you feel like at that time

1400
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:37,960
Speaker 1: that you I saw them, you know, I saw them

1401
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:40,559
Speaker 1: play before they were famous. That's what I felt about.

1402
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:43,000
Speaker 1: So I felt this ownership of him. Yeah, but he

1403
01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:47,920
Speaker 1: really did. I mean, you know, I think he I'm

1404
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:50,559
Speaker 1: so glad you used this because I don't know. In

1405
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:52,640
Speaker 1: some ways, I think Spike Lee has viewed more as

1406
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:55,000
Speaker 1: a Knicks fan today than he is. Y is now

1407
01:16:55,160 --> 01:16:58,960
Speaker 1: totally hoortant cultural historian. I mean just captured a moment

1408
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 1: on a movie that not many movie makers can pull off.

1409
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:06,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's it was so the

1410
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:11,120
Speaker 3: the way that that movie was kind of intertwined and

1411
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:14,120
Speaker 3: just kind of can't it was like, you just can't

1412
01:17:14,120 --> 01:17:18,479
Speaker 3: even separate it from that moment in the life of

1413
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:20,519
Speaker 3: New York and in the life of the country. It

1414
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:23,800
Speaker 3: spoke to like so much that people were already kind

1415
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:27,240
Speaker 3: of experiencing and feeling. And yet it still like is

1416
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:30,360
Speaker 3: like transcends that moment. It's like it's a wild like

1417
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 3: kind of paradox. But I was so strong. I think

1418
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:35,400
Speaker 3: it's a very accessible movie. And when you know that insight,

1419
01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:36,120
Speaker 3: the fact that it.

1420
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:39,639
Speaker 1: Didn't get early distribution the first time, it's just such

1421
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 1: a I mean, who controlled that world.

1422
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:44,599
Speaker 3: I mean people thought that People thought that that movie

1423
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:47,240
Speaker 3: was going to cause rioting. I mean it was people

1424
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:50,240
Speaker 3: were so scared to release that movie, and it was

1425
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 3: so bound up with the life of the city. He

1426
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:55,479
Speaker 3: wrote that movie. That was inspired to write that movie

1427
01:17:55,479 --> 01:17:58,360
Speaker 3: by Howard Beach and that movie Howard Beach Right, yeah

1428
01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 3: it was. And the whole movie was a I mean

1429
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:03,360
Speaker 3: right down to the pizzeria, right down to Sal's pizzeria,

1430
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 3: and the whole movie was was a response to to

1431
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:11,639
Speaker 3: the racial climate and the changes happening in New York

1432
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 3: in that moment. And he even Shaw insisted on shooting

1433
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:20,000
Speaker 3: it on a street in bedsty I mean, the studio

1434
01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:21,800
Speaker 3: didn't want him to shoot it there they wanted to go,

1435
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:25,760
Speaker 3: you know, somewhere with where where with like where where

1436
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:27,720
Speaker 3: they didn't have to deal with the union or on

1437
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:30,200
Speaker 3: the lot in Hollywood, And he was like, now I'm

1438
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:32,720
Speaker 3: going to shoot this on a street in Bedsty. They

1439
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:35,760
Speaker 3: literally had to clear out the crack houses on the

1440
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:38,240
Speaker 3: block so that they could make the film there, and

1441
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:41,120
Speaker 3: they were there all all summer shooting the film. Of course,

1442
01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:43,960
Speaker 3: he gets Public Enemy to do the what becomes the

1443
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:46,920
Speaker 3: kind of anthem theme song, fight the Power. He shoots

1444
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:49,640
Speaker 3: their video on a street in Bedsty and it's an

1445
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 3: amazing video. You can still kind of see it on YouTube,

1446
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:56,880
Speaker 3: and it's just like it's just so it's all just

1447
01:18:57,120 --> 01:19:00,479
Speaker 3: like so kind of electric, you know, and of that moment.

1448
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:03,200
Speaker 1: Look, I always say eighty nine was a coming of age.

1449
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:05,360
Speaker 1: Mo I just happened that, you know. I find nineteen

1450
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:07,639
Speaker 1: eighty nine to be just such an important year. Follow

1451
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:10,920
Speaker 1: Berlin Wall. You have this movie that was in you

1452
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:12,880
Speaker 1: know for me, I'm I'm I'm turning you know when

1453
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:16,360
Speaker 1: you're turning eighteen, right, whatever, Yeah, that is your you

1454
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:20,559
Speaker 1: just you're you do it's your And and that movie

1455
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:26,760
Speaker 1: in particular is an awakening for many young white Americans. Yeah, yeah,

1456
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:29,360
Speaker 1: I think that's actually right. Like that's what made that

1457
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:32,320
Speaker 1: movie so impactful, is that it you know, the word

1458
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:35,040
Speaker 1: woke people, you know, but where it comes from is

1459
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:38,000
Speaker 1: just that it was a wake up call to white America.

1460
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:40,800
Speaker 3: I think that's exactly right. And it was also like

1461
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:44,080
Speaker 3: incredibly cool, and I think it was like.

1462
01:19:44,280 --> 01:19:47,040
Speaker 1: The music, I mean, I'm a pump this day. I

1463
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:48,040
Speaker 1: mean I still love.

1464
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 3: It, right, yeah, yeah, And so there was also this

1465
01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:52,160
Speaker 3: sense of like because it was coming just as hip

1466
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:54,240
Speaker 3: hop was blowing up too, so you had this sense

1467
01:19:54,240 --> 01:19:57,960
Speaker 3: of like, oh met the moment, Yeah, black culture is

1468
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:01,800
Speaker 3: like that is now, like American culture, Like that is

1469
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:04,080
Speaker 3: it is? It is our culture now. Like it was

1470
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:06,280
Speaker 3: an incredible you know, at the same moment that we're

1471
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:08,320
Speaker 3: that the city and the country is going through this

1472
01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 3: incredibly racially polarized moment, it's like these these like black

1473
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 3: and white culture emerging with this movie.

1474
01:20:15,120 --> 01:20:17,280
Speaker 1: It was. It was incredible. It's also at that point

1475
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:19,720
Speaker 1: in time where the where the most popular athlete in

1476
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:22,160
Speaker 1: America is a black Michael Jordan Michael George actly right,

1477
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:26,800
Speaker 1: and so too, that's right, exactly, no, the whole thing

1478
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:34,120
Speaker 1: and it's just this convergence of different things. What I

1479
01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:36,720
Speaker 1: assume you spoke to Spike Lee. I did, Yeah, y,

1480
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:38,240
Speaker 1: I did.

1481
01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:40,200
Speaker 3: I mean I spoke to him for the book a

1482
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:42,240
Speaker 3: bunch and he was great. And then I actually got

1483
01:20:42,240 --> 01:20:46,400
Speaker 3: a hilarious email from him last week because he didn't

1484
01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 3: know what the title of the book was. We just

1485
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 3: had talked about it, and he just it was one line.

1486
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 3: It was like, Dear Jonathan, am I a God of

1487
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:58,280
Speaker 3: New York? And then three question marks after it.

1488
01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:02,040
Speaker 1: Hey, you know whatever sound whatever it says on the cover, right,

1489
01:21:02,439 --> 01:21:06,600
Speaker 1: whatever the cover artists decide, I guess you are. Yeah.

1490
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:11,880
Speaker 1: So let's let's, you know, rise back up to sixty

1491
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:14,720
Speaker 1: thousand feet. What What do you want a reader to

1492
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:16,280
Speaker 1: take away from this book? What do you want them

1493
01:21:16,280 --> 01:21:18,360
Speaker 1: to learn? What do you hope there learn and take

1494
01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:20,240
Speaker 1: away from it? Yeah? So, I mean I think there

1495
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:20,840
Speaker 1: are a couple of things.

1496
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:24,120
Speaker 3: One is like, I just I feel like, above all,

1497
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:27,080
Speaker 3: it's like it's a great story. I feel like it's

1498
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:31,160
Speaker 3: it's just it's wild to go back to re enter

1499
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:35,680
Speaker 3: this moment in history in this city in particular, and

1500
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:39,720
Speaker 3: so like these characters are so outsized, I mean, Spike Lee,

1501
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 3: Donald Trump, Larry Kramer.

1502
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:44,360
Speaker 1: No, no, there they are and invent them.

1503
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:49,040
Speaker 3: They are of tabloid gods really, and so I mean,

1504
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:51,880
Speaker 3: I think people should just like it's fun. But I

1505
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:54,719
Speaker 3: also think that there's a there's a you know, obviously

1506
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:56,920
Speaker 3: a couple of larger ideas here that I think I

1507
01:21:56,960 --> 01:21:59,400
Speaker 3: want people to grasp. And one is, you know, this

1508
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:02,840
Speaker 3: is when the modern city was born. This is when

1509
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:08,080
Speaker 3: New York's economy kind of transitioned from the great kind

1510
01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:11,160
Speaker 3: of working class city with the strong labor unions and

1511
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:14,280
Speaker 3: the big working class city to the city of kind

1512
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:19,920
Speaker 3: of Wall Street and finance and real estate. And if

1513
01:22:19,960 --> 01:22:22,960
Speaker 3: you want to understand the mayoral elections, say going on

1514
01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:25,880
Speaker 3: in New York right now, and the popularity of Ziram Mamdani,

1515
01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:30,080
Speaker 3: this is where it begins. This is where the kind

1516
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 3: of the class divide in New York that he is

1517
01:22:33,240 --> 01:22:35,760
Speaker 3: speaking to, that his campaign is speaking to. This is

1518
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:39,080
Speaker 3: where it starts. So I want people to kind of,

1519
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:41,280
Speaker 3: you know, understand that, or I think that will at

1520
01:22:41,360 --> 01:22:43,759
Speaker 3: least help them understand our political moment now.

1521
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:46,639
Speaker 1: And I also think it's like just an origin story

1522
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:49,840
Speaker 1: for all of how our politics work now. If you

1523
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:53,560
Speaker 1: want to understand how you know, Donald Trump operates politically.

1524
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:59,320
Speaker 1: His whole game is to capture the public's attention and

1525
01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:01,880
Speaker 1: to hold it and to kind of build a storyline.

1526
01:23:01,880 --> 01:23:02,639
Speaker 1: That's what he does.

1527
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:04,720
Speaker 3: This is these are not skills that he learned on

1528
01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:07,600
Speaker 3: the Apprentice. These are skills that he learned in the

1529
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 3: tabloids in nineteen eighties New York.

1530
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:12,280
Speaker 1: Well, what's funny is that the New York Post and

1531
01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:15,840
Speaker 1: New York Daily News covers in the eighties are what

1532
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:19,599
Speaker 1: we would call viral memes today. Exactly, they were there,

1533
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:22,280
Speaker 1: they were there first, they were absolutely there in the

1534
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 1: same way. Trump wants to be a mean today and

1535
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:26,639
Speaker 1: he doesn't care as long as he's the exactly the matter,

1536
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:28,840
Speaker 1: if it's positive or negative. He wanted on that would

1537
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 1: he wanted to be on the back page or the

1538
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:33,880
Speaker 1: front page exactly exactly, And that's what he he That

1539
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:35,960
Speaker 1: is where he learned it, and that is that is

1540
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:39,400
Speaker 1: the that has been his playbook forever. Yeah. One other

1541
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 1: character that we haven't talked about, and arguably he's a

1542
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:47,320
Speaker 1: bigger maybe it's a he was a bigger player in

1543
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:51,080
Speaker 1: Bronsays Burning is s George Steinbrenner. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah,

1544
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 1: he's I don't really deal with him in this book.

1545
01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:56,240
Speaker 1: But of course he was right. He was a big character,

1546
01:23:56,280 --> 01:23:59,040
Speaker 1: a bigger character. But he fits in the rise of

1547
01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:02,639
Speaker 1: these guys right to me, Stein But Steinbrenner in the seventies,

1548
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:06,479
Speaker 1: is Trump in the eighties? Is that that? Yes?

1549
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:09,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Steinbrender I think was, you know, he

1550
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:13,000
Speaker 3: was he and he and Trump are are kind of perfect.

1551
01:24:13,040 --> 01:24:15,439
Speaker 3: You know, they're perfectly aligned. There's a real there is

1552
01:24:15,479 --> 01:24:16,679
Speaker 3: a passing of the torch here.

1553
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. Trump never said no when Steinbrenner invited him to

1554
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:23,240
Speaker 1: the box. Yeah, that's right. Always would go to Yankee Stadium,

1555
01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 1: would ride, I believe, would ride with him in the

1556
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 1: Limos one of the few times I think that he

1557
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:29,960
Speaker 1: didn't write in his own always wanted to ride with

1558
01:24:30,040 --> 01:24:33,360
Speaker 1: big with the boss, like there was definitely there was

1559
01:24:33,360 --> 01:24:37,000
Speaker 1: a hierarchy, and Trump knew there was stuff that he

1560
01:24:37,040 --> 01:24:38,760
Speaker 1: wanted to draft off of George.

1561
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:40,599
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, No, I think that's right.

1562
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:42,639
Speaker 3: I mean I think he I think he certainly learned

1563
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:46,400
Speaker 3: some moves from George Steinbrenner too, I mean think Steinbrenner also,

1564
01:24:47,080 --> 01:24:50,519
Speaker 3: you know, Trump really became the kind of personification of

1565
01:24:50,520 --> 01:24:53,320
Speaker 3: of of wealth and excess in New York. But Steinbrenner,

1566
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:57,240
Speaker 3: as you say, kind of before Trump was was his

1567
01:24:57,360 --> 01:24:59,720
Speaker 3: own kind of symbol of you know, he was the

1568
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:01,840
Speaker 3: he was the man, he was the boss, he was

1569
01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:02,360
Speaker 3: the owner.

1570
01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:06,120
Speaker 1: He had that image in New York before Trump did.

1571
01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:08,760
Speaker 1: Does New York come back without the Yankees coming back? Right?

1572
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:11,840
Speaker 1: Remember people forget right that the Yankees were in a

1573
01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 1: real just ditch as a team from about sixties basically

1574
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:21,080
Speaker 1: mental retires. Okay between that and and and it was

1575
01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:22,680
Speaker 1: really only a five or six year period, but to

1576
01:25:22,760 --> 01:25:25,120
Speaker 1: Yankees fans that feels like a seven. Yeah, it was

1577
01:25:25,400 --> 01:25:27,400
Speaker 1: a bit more. I think it was ultimately maybe like

1578
01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:30,480
Speaker 1: ten or twelve. But yeah, right, and then the Yankees,

1579
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:33,040
Speaker 1: then the Yankees when those two World Series go to

1580
01:25:33,560 --> 01:25:38,200
Speaker 1: three and four years, three in a row but win two. Yeah,

1581
01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:42,200
Speaker 1: and it really it feels like if you were to

1582
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:45,559
Speaker 1: plot when did New York, you know York, if the

1583
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:49,080
Speaker 1: would you put the low in, It's like seventy five

1584
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 1: New York nineteen seventy five? That the is that the bottom?

1585
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:52,920
Speaker 1: What was bottom?

1586
01:25:53,080 --> 01:25:57,800
Speaker 3: I would say bottom was seventy seven, I think, okay, five,

1587
01:25:57,880 --> 01:26:00,280
Speaker 3: the fiscal crisis is seventy five. So you're right, like

1588
01:26:00,479 --> 01:26:04,719
Speaker 3: a on a kind of purely kind of financial bankruptcycret level,

1589
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:06,519
Speaker 3: that was when the city really bottomed out. But I

1590
01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 3: would say I think of the seventy seven blackout in

1591
01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:11,080
Speaker 3: the summer of seventy.

1592
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:13,240
Speaker 1: Seven, when it's it's real bottom. Yeah, that is it.

1593
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:17,400
Speaker 3: When you see people like all in every burrow, thousands

1594
01:26:17,439 --> 01:26:20,320
Speaker 3: of people like smashing store windows and grabbing everything they

1595
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:22,439
Speaker 3: could get. That to me was like kind of the

1596
01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:24,439
Speaker 3: low points. That's seventy seven. But yeah, as you said,

1597
01:26:24,479 --> 01:26:27,439
Speaker 3: then the Yankees win the World Series that year, then

1598
01:26:27,479 --> 01:26:29,519
Speaker 3: they come back and win it again in seventy eight,

1599
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:31,160
Speaker 3: and the city turns around.

1600
01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:33,760
Speaker 1: It does It feels like that it has to sort

1601
01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:39,840
Speaker 1: of happen there before before this pride comes back. The

1602
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:43,760
Speaker 1: end of the end of your timeline is actually a

1603
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:46,559
Speaker 1: period where it looks like Trump, Like, as you note,

1604
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:49,160
Speaker 1: Russell Baker thought it was the end of Trump. There's

1605
01:26:49,240 --> 01:26:51,800
Speaker 1: this great interview that I've always been obsessed with about

1606
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 1: Donald Trump that he did with Playboy in nineteen ninety

1607
01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:57,600
Speaker 1: and it's right in the he did the interview, the

1608
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:01,840
Speaker 1: timing of the interview, you end up out he knows

1609
01:27:01,920 --> 01:27:05,240
Speaker 1: he's about to go bankrupt, but the interviewer doesn't. So

1610
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:08,720
Speaker 1: it's a fascinating So it's there is a Trump is

1611
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:10,960
Speaker 1: more revealing in this interview than he really had been

1612
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:14,280
Speaker 1: in any interview before, or frankly, any interview after for

1613
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 1: a couple of years, because he's starting to feel sorry

1614
01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:20,040
Speaker 1: for himself and he was starting to think it might

1615
01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:22,640
Speaker 1: all go away, so he was Plus his marriage is

1616
01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:25,240
Speaker 1: falling apart at that marriage is falling apart all this tiff.

1617
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:28,400
Speaker 1: So so you know, if you were to be you know,

1618
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:30,720
Speaker 1: where is Trump at this point at the end of

1619
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:34,519
Speaker 1: your book? And is it you if you're living in

1620
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:39,519
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine New York, you assume Donald Trump is sort.

1621
01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:44,560
Speaker 3: Of cooked, right, He is headed for a spectacular bankruptcy.

1622
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:47,840
Speaker 1: The airline is going down, right, The airline's going Yeah,

1623
01:27:47,880 --> 01:27:49,720
Speaker 1: he's got it, it's got to He's got it.

1624
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:52,280
Speaker 5: But he's you know, his plan to turn it into

1625
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:56,799
Speaker 5: you know, the fourteen carre at Trumpere is like there's

1626
01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:59,679
Speaker 5: you know, and finally the banks are like, wait, maybe

1627
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:01,240
Speaker 5: we should stop letting this guy money.

1628
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:05,120
Speaker 3: So he's like into junk bonds. The taj Mahal is

1629
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:06,360
Speaker 3: like about to open.

1630
01:28:06,400 --> 01:28:08,760
Speaker 1: It opens in the summer and is clearly already over

1631
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:09,679
Speaker 1: budget disaster.

1632
01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:12,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and his marriage, I mean, he's he's his marriage

1633
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:15,160
Speaker 3: has blown up very publicly, and you know that Evanna

1634
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:17,040
Speaker 3: is going to be like coming for him.

1635
01:28:17,360 --> 01:28:20,240
Speaker 1: Yvann's lawyers are coming for him. So it really seems

1636
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:25,439
Speaker 1: like he's he's done. Yeah, of course we're right, obviously.

1637
01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 1: Not where do you point on that timeline of Trump?

1638
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:33,160
Speaker 1: Where do you pinpoint sort of? I mean, is it

1639
01:28:33,200 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 1: really just hibernation. Do we look back and say the

1640
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:38,960
Speaker 1: nineties were an era of him hibernating and just plotting

1641
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:43,360
Speaker 1: his next move, recovering from the disaster that was Atlantic City? Yeah,

1642
01:28:43,439 --> 01:28:45,240
Speaker 1: I mean I think that.

1643
01:28:46,640 --> 01:28:48,880
Speaker 3: I think in a sense, yes, But I also think

1644
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:51,599
Speaker 3: that like the great miracle of Donald Trump is like

1645
01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:55,040
Speaker 3: he just never he just keeps going. You know, he

1646
01:28:55,120 --> 01:29:01,519
Speaker 3: never never acknowledges defeat. He never he never looks back

1647
01:29:01,600 --> 01:29:04,080
Speaker 3: and says, I got to should have done that differently,

1648
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:07,200
Speaker 3: I could have done that differently. He just keeps reinventing himself.

1649
01:29:07,240 --> 01:29:10,479
Speaker 3: I mean the way that he reinvented himself as the

1650
01:29:11,240 --> 01:29:15,080
Speaker 3: you know, the man who had literally been the personification

1651
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:20,240
Speaker 3: of of money and excess reinvents himself as the voice

1652
01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:23,840
Speaker 3: of America's powerless and disaffected who've been left out of

1653
01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:26,600
Speaker 3: the transformation of the American economy. It's just like, what

1654
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:28,280
Speaker 3: kind of magic trick was that you know?

1655
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:34,320
Speaker 1: It is something else. So you brought up the fact

1656
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:37,000
Speaker 1: that you think this book can help explain what we're

1657
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:43,280
Speaker 1: watching in New York New York City, Mom, Donnie, what

1658
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:46,679
Speaker 1: is there a Is there a parallel? Mom? Donnie's victory

1659
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:49,720
Speaker 1: is like whose victory is it? Is it like a

1660
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:52,040
Speaker 1: Dinkin's moment is a LaGuardia moment?

1661
01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:56,839
Speaker 6: I mean, I think I think Dinkins is the closest

1662
01:29:56,840 --> 01:29:58,880
Speaker 6: parallel because you have I mean, in fact, it's almost

1663
01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:00,880
Speaker 6: kind of eerie where you think about the lineup of

1664
01:30:00,960 --> 01:30:05,200
Speaker 6: caret of candidates, right, It's like you have the scandal

1665
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:08,960
Speaker 6: scarred incumbent in Eric Adams and Koch had been through

1666
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:10,880
Speaker 6: a ton of scandals in eighty nine.

1667
01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:14,080
Speaker 3: You have the kind of the tough guy from the

1668
01:30:14,120 --> 01:30:18,559
Speaker 3: outer boroughs, which was Rudy and now is Andrew Cuomo.

1669
01:30:19,320 --> 01:30:22,240
Speaker 3: And then you have the you know, the candidate of

1670
01:30:22,280 --> 01:30:26,480
Speaker 3: color who's like like trying to speak to the powerless

1671
01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:29,160
Speaker 3: in the city and trying to give power, you give

1672
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:32,800
Speaker 3: voice to the voiceless. So to me, Dinkins is and

1673
01:30:32,880 --> 01:30:34,559
Speaker 3: you have the money flooding in to try to stop

1674
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:38,559
Speaker 3: that from happening. So to me, you have the Yeah, yeah,

1675
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:40,120
Speaker 3: that's a pretty clear clear line.

1676
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:45,080
Speaker 1: And his challenge is is going to be I mean,

1677
01:30:46,240 --> 01:30:49,960
Speaker 1: Dinkins didn't win, what would be the conclude Why didn't

1678
01:30:50,000 --> 01:30:51,000
Speaker 1: Dinkins win reelection?

1679
01:30:52,520 --> 01:30:56,080
Speaker 3: I think that Dinkins inherited an impossible situation. I mean

1680
01:30:56,240 --> 01:31:00,240
Speaker 3: kind of financially. I think that that there was still

1681
01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:03,000
Speaker 3: like just so much. I think part of the city

1682
01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:06,479
Speaker 3: wanted like some healing in nineteen eighty nine, nineteen ninety,

1683
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:07,000
Speaker 3: but I think a.

1684
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:09,320
Speaker 1: Lot of the city didn't. I mean, he won very narrowly.

1685
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:13,240
Speaker 3: I think he didn't handle the racial conflict terribly well.

1686
01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:16,400
Speaker 3: He didn't handle the Crown Heights riots very well. And

1687
01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:18,639
Speaker 3: I think it just was but I but I think

1688
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:21,519
Speaker 3: on for the most part, it was just like it

1689
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:24,559
Speaker 3: was an impossible moment in the life of the city.

1690
01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:28,200
Speaker 3: Between the money, the like hangover from the terrible years

1691
01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:30,719
Speaker 3: of crack and crime, it just.

1692
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:33,080
Speaker 1: Was not not a moment for anyone to win reelection.

1693
01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:36,200
Speaker 1: So I got it feels like that, and I'm afraid yeah, no,

1694
01:31:36,240 --> 01:31:38,840
Speaker 1: it feels like that's what mom Donnie's facing. No, no,

1695
01:31:39,040 --> 01:31:40,840
Speaker 1: totally he I mean he's got to get this job

1696
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:43,240
Speaker 1: at about the worst possible time you'd want to be

1697
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:45,920
Speaker 1: mayor of New correct correct correct, Yes, that is that

1698
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:48,960
Speaker 1: is right. We'll be very interesting to see how he

1699
01:31:49,040 --> 01:31:52,800
Speaker 1: manages that. Yeah, well, Jonathan, like I said, I just

1700
01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:56,400
Speaker 1: you know, I can't wait to see how you decide

1701
01:31:56,400 --> 01:31:59,679
Speaker 1: to do the Bloomberg years. I know you're probably thinking

1702
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:02,040
Speaker 1: you're not supposed to, but man, I mean, you know

1703
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:04,040
Speaker 1: you can already feel it. You've got a little Wall

1704
01:32:04,080 --> 01:32:07,920
Speaker 1: Street there, you have Occupy. There's all sorts of interesting

1705
01:32:07,960 --> 01:32:10,960
Speaker 1: as It's true, you know, nine to eleven is one thing,

1706
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:15,000
Speaker 1: but then you have that boy. There's something about you

1707
01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:17,559
Speaker 1: know that that New York and the financial and sort

1708
01:32:17,600 --> 01:32:20,360
Speaker 1: of the rise of private equity in that world, and

1709
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 1: so yeah, first decade, there's something there. It's true. Yeah,

1710
01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:25,559
Speaker 1: it's true. It's true. The private equity that is good.

1711
01:32:25,600 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 1: It's true. You know, it might be the you know

1712
01:32:27,280 --> 01:32:31,400
Speaker 1: where where Jamie Diamond suddenly becomes one of your characters,

1713
01:32:32,080 --> 01:32:34,760
Speaker 1: not a bad One's speaking of gods of New York,

1714
01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:37,120
Speaker 1: someone might call him one these days. It's true. That's true,

1715
01:32:37,200 --> 01:32:40,680
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, the book is terrific. I highly encourage it,

1716
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:44,479
Speaker 1: so very readable. You're such a you're just that, you know,

1717
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:48,479
Speaker 1: that's the art, you know. Look, you know the research

1718
01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:50,800
Speaker 1: is terrific and all of that, and the history is great.

1719
01:32:51,320 --> 01:32:54,520
Speaker 1: The art is making it so vivid and and and

1720
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:57,400
Speaker 1: sort of in real time and in real life. I

1721
01:32:57,520 --> 01:33:09,600
Speaker 1: well appreciated it. So great to talk. You know what

1722
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:11,400
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from you guys? What are your

1723
01:33:11,439 --> 01:33:16,280
Speaker 1: favorite New York sort of zeitgeisty books or movies?

1724
01:33:16,520 --> 01:33:16,680
Speaker 2: Right?

1725
01:33:16,840 --> 01:33:20,200
Speaker 1: You know, Boardwalk Empire? Did you like that? How about?

1726
01:33:20,760 --> 01:33:23,200
Speaker 1: You know? I've to me the Gilded Age and by

1727
01:33:23,200 --> 01:33:25,080
Speaker 1: the way, my substack this week, I give you three.

1728
01:33:25,320 --> 01:33:28,400
Speaker 1: You know, the Gilded Age is a great in some ways,

1729
01:33:28,760 --> 01:33:31,679
Speaker 1: a great way of showcasing New York in the eighteen eighties.

1730
01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:34,200
Speaker 1: Write what was going on in New York? Then in

1731
01:33:34,240 --> 01:33:38,960
Speaker 1: many ways, you know, understanding these periods of time in

1732
01:33:39,000 --> 01:33:41,640
Speaker 1: New York actually end up being it sort of like

1733
01:33:42,240 --> 01:33:46,040
Speaker 1: it helps you understand the cultural zeitgeist of America in

1734
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:50,200
Speaker 1: many ways, or where things were headed on that. I

1735
01:33:50,520 --> 01:33:52,439
Speaker 1: will tell you this. I just think Gilded Age, this

1736
01:33:52,479 --> 01:33:56,320
Speaker 1: has been you know, peak Gilded Age. This season's been terrific,

1737
01:33:57,120 --> 01:33:58,880
Speaker 1: and for me, I've gotten a lot more out of

1738
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:01,799
Speaker 1: it because I've I've read so much about that period,

1739
01:34:02,240 --> 01:34:04,320
Speaker 1: and this week in my substack, I give three different

1740
01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:08,559
Speaker 1: books that I think are worth that I've read that

1741
01:34:08,720 --> 01:34:12,720
Speaker 1: make my experience watching Gilded Age that much richer. One

1742
01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:16,559
Speaker 1: is a book about America's first black political dynasty, about

1743
01:34:17,200 --> 01:34:20,840
Speaker 1: an African American senator from Mississippi named Blanche Bruce who

1744
01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:25,519
Speaker 1: loses his reelection in eighteen eighty when Garfield wins gets

1745
01:34:25,800 --> 01:34:27,799
Speaker 1: you know at that point wants to get an appointment

1746
01:34:27,800 --> 01:34:31,320
Speaker 1: in the Garfield administration. But it helps understand the black

1747
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:34,599
Speaker 1: political elite of the eighteen seventies and eighties, which guilded

1748
01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:36,639
Speaker 1: Age has been doing a pretty good job of trying

1749
01:34:36,680 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 1: to showcase. Another book that has helped me enjoy guilded

1750
01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:44,719
Speaker 1: Age more is won by Leland's a book about the America.

1751
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:50,479
Speaker 1: It's called American Disruptor, a biography of Leland Stanford. Obviously,

1752
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:52,800
Speaker 1: the name the namesake of the university is actually after

1753
01:34:52,840 --> 01:34:56,120
Speaker 1: his son, Leland Stanford Junior, who died as a teenager,

1754
01:34:56,479 --> 01:35:00,960
Speaker 1: and so the university was formed in honor of him.

1755
01:35:01,160 --> 01:35:03,120
Speaker 1: But he was, you know, governor of California, but he's

1756
01:35:03,120 --> 01:35:05,400
Speaker 1: also a railroad baron, made all his money in the railroad.

1757
01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:09,200
Speaker 1: So understanding the railroad, the railroad, the rise of the

1758
01:35:09,280 --> 01:35:14,160
Speaker 1: railroad barons, if you will, particularly out West. That has

1759
01:35:14,200 --> 01:35:18,000
Speaker 1: added to my enjoyment of Gilded Age. And then of

1760
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:22,160
Speaker 1: course you pick your favorite Garfield book. Destiny of the

1761
01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:25,559
Speaker 1: Republic is great. I like Dark Horse is another. One's

1762
01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:27,559
Speaker 1: a third one that's out now that I have not

1763
01:35:27,600 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 1: read yet that I'm looking forward to. But the three

1764
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:33,600
Speaker 1: books together, I really am. I really feel like that

1765
01:35:33,640 --> 01:35:37,599
Speaker 1: the Writer's Room in Gilded Age clearly did there did

1766
01:35:37,640 --> 01:35:42,840
Speaker 1: some homework so that they that they have made it.

1767
01:35:43,160 --> 01:35:45,439
Speaker 1: I think they've I think they're doing they're making a

1768
01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:47,920
Speaker 1: good job of trying to portray the era as accurately

1769
01:35:47,960 --> 01:35:50,439
Speaker 1: as you can when you're writing about something that happened

1770
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:54,080
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty years ago. So with that, let

1771
01:35:54,080 --> 01:36:01,160
Speaker 1: me sneak in a few questions here ask Chuck. First,

1772
01:36:01,160 --> 01:36:04,559
Speaker 1: one comes from Austin from Austin. Got to love that, right,

1773
01:36:04,640 --> 01:36:08,040
Speaker 1: Austin from Austin. I love the show. Democrats are polling

1774
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:10,799
Speaker 1: as low as ever will their strategy of aggressively gerrymandering

1775
01:36:10,840 --> 01:36:13,200
Speaker 1: blue states helper hurt them. I understand the urgency, but

1776
01:36:13,240 --> 01:36:15,679
Speaker 1: abandoning democratic principles as a means to an end feels

1777
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:18,880
Speaker 1: wrong and could turn away, could turn me away from

1778
01:36:18,920 --> 01:36:21,400
Speaker 1: candidates to endorse it. While many Democrats may welcome the fight,

1779
01:36:21,680 --> 01:36:23,799
Speaker 1: I wonder how many might be alienated by this approach.

1780
01:36:23,840 --> 01:36:26,600
Speaker 1: Also curious in your take if MLB adds two new

1781
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:30,120
Speaker 1: expansion teams from Nashville, Salt Lake, Portland, or Austin, which

1782
01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:32,360
Speaker 1: cities do you think will make the cut? All right,

1783
01:36:32,520 --> 01:36:34,960
Speaker 1: appreciate both questions, and I do care about that baseball

1784
01:36:35,040 --> 01:36:38,680
Speaker 1: question here a minute. Look, you know, I hopefully at

1785
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:42,600
Speaker 1: this point Austin. You heard my opening monologue for this episode.

1786
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:45,080
Speaker 1: I think there's real risk here, right. I think that

1787
01:36:45,880 --> 01:36:49,200
Speaker 1: I think the Democrats one in eighteen and one in twenty,

1788
01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:53,840
Speaker 1: because they were able to ground their opposition in the Constitution,

1789
01:36:54,280 --> 01:36:58,080
Speaker 1: ground their opposition into something that was bigger than partisanship,

1790
01:36:58,120 --> 01:37:02,639
Speaker 1: bigger than ideology. I think that looks less so now, right,

1791
01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:06,720
Speaker 1: And I understand, uh, you know that there is that,

1792
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:13,479
Speaker 1: you know, I understand the right. I don't think it's

1793
01:37:13,520 --> 01:37:16,360
Speaker 1: in I don't think the logic that some are taking

1794
01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:20,320
Speaker 1: here to fight fire with fire is crazy logic, and

1795
01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:23,519
Speaker 1: I just think it's uh, you know, I think the

1796
01:37:23,600 --> 01:37:28,080
Speaker 1: law of undertended consequences really, I think it's a it's

1797
01:37:28,439 --> 01:37:31,760
Speaker 1: it's a very dangerous game. I think here's the thing.

1798
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:34,519
Speaker 1: When you play by rules, somebody else is right, that

1799
01:37:35,600 --> 01:37:38,760
Speaker 1: somebody else wants that, somebody else is always going to

1800
01:37:38,760 --> 01:37:41,040
Speaker 1: be better about exploiting the loopholes of the rules than

1801
01:37:41,080 --> 01:37:43,960
Speaker 1: you are. And so then all of a sudden, when

1802
01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:46,720
Speaker 1: you start to go down that dirty road, and then

1803
01:37:46,760 --> 01:37:49,160
Speaker 1: you get frustrated that the other side is playing dirtier

1804
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:51,960
Speaker 1: than you thought you were willing. Are you willing? Are

1805
01:37:51,960 --> 01:37:54,360
Speaker 1: you willing to go dirtier? Are you willing to push

1806
01:37:54,360 --> 01:37:59,400
Speaker 1: the envelope more than Donald Trump and the Republicans? Because

1807
01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:02,720
Speaker 1: if you are, and you accept this premise of trying

1808
01:38:02,720 --> 01:38:07,160
Speaker 1: to fight fire with fire, you're going to lose because

1809
01:38:07,200 --> 01:38:09,679
Speaker 1: he's always wanting to do something that you are right.

1810
01:38:10,040 --> 01:38:13,800
Speaker 1: That has been the hallmark of Trump. So yeah, I'm

1811
01:38:13,800 --> 01:38:15,920
Speaker 1: a skeptic that this is a good idea. I have

1812
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:18,880
Speaker 1: this crazy notion that you gotta run a campaign against

1813
01:38:18,880 --> 01:38:23,519
Speaker 1: Texas Republicans, run a campaign on the criticism you're leveling

1814
01:38:23,520 --> 01:38:26,040
Speaker 1: at what they're doing. Why are they afraid of the voters.

1815
01:38:26,439 --> 01:38:29,040
Speaker 1: If their policies are so popular, why do they need

1816
01:38:29,080 --> 01:38:34,439
Speaker 1: to change the districts? Right? Run a campaign that's harder,

1817
01:38:35,040 --> 01:38:40,840
Speaker 1: it's easier to redraw blue seats. So you know, look,

1818
01:38:40,880 --> 01:38:44,000
Speaker 1: I've one thing I've learned in this new day and

1819
01:38:44,040 --> 01:38:45,840
Speaker 1: age of fragmented media is that even though I think

1820
01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:47,840
Speaker 1: I say something a million times, it turns out you

1821
01:38:47,880 --> 01:38:49,840
Speaker 1: got to say it a million times before everybody hears it.

1822
01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:54,360
Speaker 1: So I will continue to be very highly skeptical of

1823
01:38:54,400 --> 01:38:56,960
Speaker 1: what I think how the Democrats are handling this gerryman

1824
01:38:57,040 --> 01:39:01,799
Speaker 1: or fid As for your question about MLB expansion, Look,

1825
01:39:05,360 --> 01:39:07,080
Speaker 1: I know some of you are probably wondering, did am

1826
01:39:07,160 --> 01:39:09,479
Speaker 1: I going to renew? I've made the decision to renew

1827
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:15,920
Speaker 1: my natstickets. I am. It is because I don't one

1828
01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:18,800
Speaker 1: of the one of the things that I you know,

1829
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:20,920
Speaker 1: and I did this when you know, I put down

1830
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:23,640
Speaker 1: a deposit when we weren't sure DC was going to

1831
01:39:23,640 --> 01:39:25,479
Speaker 1: get a team because I wanted to. I wanted to

1832
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 1: make sure, hey, we had the numbers to prove we

1833
01:39:27,439 --> 01:39:30,280
Speaker 1: were worthy of a team with deposits. So I'm showing

1834
01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:33,240
Speaker 1: my support for baseball in Washington. This is not an

1835
01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:36,160
Speaker 1: endorsement of the Learners. In fact, I you know, it's

1836
01:39:36,160 --> 01:39:41,120
Speaker 1: it's really I'm very skeptical that that that they've used

1837
01:39:41,160 --> 01:39:45,479
Speaker 1: my money correctly. You know, I'm when I think about

1838
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:47,479
Speaker 1: how much money I've spent on season tickets over the

1839
01:39:47,560 --> 01:39:54,200
Speaker 1: last five years and what little return they've gotten with

1840
01:39:54,200 --> 01:39:57,559
Speaker 1: with it. You know it, you know, it's such a

1841
01:39:57,600 --> 01:40:00,439
Speaker 1: you know, I guess, you know, my I you know,

1842
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:04,280
Speaker 1: maybe they don't care about the twenty five thousand dollars

1843
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:07,519
Speaker 1: a year these tickets, you know, four tickets can cost,

1844
01:40:08,400 --> 01:40:11,559
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, I do consider myself a

1845
01:40:11,600 --> 01:40:15,720
Speaker 1: shareholder almost right, and I think season ticket holders do so.

1846
01:40:16,760 --> 01:40:21,880
Speaker 1: But I've decided to renew another year and let's see

1847
01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:27,040
Speaker 1: what happens. Frankly, my son loves baseball too much and

1848
01:40:27,320 --> 01:40:30,120
Speaker 1: I do too, right, I can't, I can't, but I'm

1849
01:40:30,280 --> 01:40:32,599
Speaker 1: I'm not happy about it. But one of the things

1850
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:35,680
Speaker 1: I learned in this process is that it's because I

1851
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:38,519
Speaker 1: think the big coming, you know, you talk about baseball expansion,

1852
01:40:38,560 --> 01:40:41,240
Speaker 1: Baseball can't expand until they figure out their labor issue.

1853
01:40:42,800 --> 01:40:48,840
Speaker 1: And I was talking to an exact inside the organization

1854
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:52,400
Speaker 1: who said there's a lot of people that believe there

1855
01:40:52,400 --> 01:40:54,840
Speaker 1: will be no no baseball season in twenty twenty seven,

1856
01:40:56,160 --> 01:40:58,519
Speaker 1: that the fight over a salary cap will do that.

1857
01:40:58,680 --> 01:41:01,240
Speaker 1: And then the question is going to be, you know,

1858
01:41:01,760 --> 01:41:05,439
Speaker 1: our baseball's finance is healthy enough to support expansion or

1859
01:41:05,439 --> 01:41:07,519
Speaker 1: are they going to have to take weak franchises and

1860
01:41:07,600 --> 01:41:12,000
Speaker 1: move them? And you know, that's that's I think a

1861
01:41:12,320 --> 01:41:15,639
Speaker 1: I think that's the that's the question I have, right

1862
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:18,120
Speaker 1: is this? You know, in some ways, you look at

1863
01:41:18,120 --> 01:41:20,679
Speaker 1: the standings right now, and Baseball, on one hand, should

1864
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:23,280
Speaker 1: be ecstatic. The Cubs, the Dodgers are going to be

1865
01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:28,679
Speaker 1: playoff teams. That's always exciting. Phillies, Mets, Yankees, the team

1866
01:41:28,720 --> 01:41:32,920
Speaker 1: of Canada Toronto. These are all good teams to have

1867
01:41:33,040 --> 01:41:39,679
Speaker 1: in your playoffs, right, But you know, can the Minnesota

1868
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:43,719
Speaker 1: Twins compete? Can the Chicago White Sox compete? Can Chicago

1869
01:41:43,840 --> 01:41:48,400
Speaker 1: really support two franchises anymore? Is it? Is it that?

1870
01:41:48,640 --> 01:41:50,519
Speaker 1: Or is it just is it a collection of bad

1871
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:53,880
Speaker 1: owners that baseball has? You know, some of this is

1872
01:41:53,920 --> 01:41:56,920
Speaker 1: bad owners, you know, good owners, you know, I think

1873
01:41:57,160 --> 01:42:00,479
Speaker 1: the pirates of terrible ownership. That's pretty clear. The Rockies

1874
01:42:00,520 --> 01:42:05,280
Speaker 1: have terrible ownership. I'm giving the Learners a little bit

1875
01:42:05,280 --> 01:42:07,920
Speaker 1: of a pass because they were good owners and now

1876
01:42:07,960 --> 01:42:10,200
Speaker 1: they've you know, the last five years, they've just been

1877
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:12,640
Speaker 1: way too cheap with the franchise. They have not invested

1878
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:15,679
Speaker 1: in the minor leagues. And I there's yet another story

1879
01:42:15,680 --> 01:42:18,280
Speaker 1: of another pitcher that gets traded away by the Gnats

1880
01:42:18,840 --> 01:42:22,680
Speaker 1: who suddenly looks better when he's getting different coaching. That's

1881
01:42:22,760 --> 01:42:25,000
Speaker 1: Kyle Finnegan with the Tiger, who moved from the Gnats

1882
01:42:25,040 --> 01:42:27,240
Speaker 1: to the Tigers. We saw it with Blake Trine and

1883
01:42:27,240 --> 01:42:29,040
Speaker 1: when he left the Gnats. We've seen it with Eric

1884
01:42:29,040 --> 01:42:33,240
Speaker 1: Fetti when he left the Nats. So it's a it's

1885
01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:36,639
Speaker 1: a troubling It is pretty clear the Nats ever since

1886
01:42:36,680 --> 01:42:39,320
Speaker 1: Mike Maddocks, who's the pitching coach right now for the Rangers,

1887
01:42:39,320 --> 01:42:42,720
Speaker 1: Greg Maddox's older brother. He was the pitching coach for

1888
01:42:42,720 --> 01:42:45,439
Speaker 1: the World Series team. Ever since, we've not you know,

1889
01:42:45,720 --> 01:42:49,160
Speaker 1: it's it's been a disaster in the development of pitchers

1890
01:42:49,240 --> 01:42:53,920
Speaker 1: and in our pitching. So that's where you have to

1891
01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:56,599
Speaker 1: ask if that's been so that I throw that out

1892
01:42:56,640 --> 01:42:59,640
Speaker 1: there because I'm not one hundred percent convinced baseball might

1893
01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:03,240
Speaker 1: expand versus having to take weak franchises and move them.

1894
01:43:03,479 --> 01:43:08,160
Speaker 1: Maybe it's the Tampa Bay Rays get moved. Maybe maybe

1895
01:43:08,200 --> 01:43:10,559
Speaker 1: the Minnesota Twins end up moving if they don't find

1896
01:43:10,600 --> 01:43:14,400
Speaker 1: ownership that wants to stay there. Right. I think the

1897
01:43:14,439 --> 01:43:16,439
Speaker 1: A's would have been a candidate. But now they've They've

1898
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:21,519
Speaker 1: got their Vegas deal, so you know the So there's

1899
01:43:21,880 --> 01:43:25,160
Speaker 1: that's But if you're asking which cities, I think, to me,

1900
01:43:25,360 --> 01:43:29,640
Speaker 1: Nashville is one on your list, I think that's the

1901
01:43:29,760 --> 01:43:33,080
Speaker 1: number one. I think that's the first round draft pick.

1902
01:43:33,120 --> 01:43:36,599
Speaker 1: I think the NBA is bummed that they're not there,

1903
01:43:36,640 --> 01:43:39,759
Speaker 1: But I think baseball, I think we'll thrive in Nashville.

1904
01:43:40,200 --> 01:43:42,200
Speaker 1: I think that would be a good one. Baseball in

1905
01:43:42,240 --> 01:43:44,040
Speaker 1: Salt Lake makes a lot of sense. I think it

1906
01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:46,000
Speaker 1: makes more sense in Salt Lake than it does Portland.

1907
01:43:46,560 --> 01:43:50,559
Speaker 1: And then you're asking about Austin, right, I think both.

1908
01:43:50,600 --> 01:43:55,720
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting Austin's going to get a pro team, right?

1909
01:43:55,840 --> 01:44:00,439
Speaker 1: Is it an NFL team? Is it a NBA team?

1910
01:44:01,400 --> 01:44:06,320
Speaker 1: Is it an MLB team? Is San Antonio like is

1911
01:44:07,000 --> 01:44:10,200
Speaker 1: you know San Antonio? Austin is kind of like Tampa Orlando, Right,

1912
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:13,719
Speaker 1: And there's this sense that, like the Tampa Orlando area

1913
01:44:14,200 --> 01:44:16,960
Speaker 1: collectively has all four major sports, but two are in

1914
01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:20,320
Speaker 1: one city. You know, excuse me, three are in one city,

1915
01:44:20,360 --> 01:44:22,000
Speaker 1: and one is I actually think the Rays got to

1916
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:24,880
Speaker 1: go to Orlando, right. Orlando should be the basketball and

1917
01:44:24,920 --> 01:44:27,400
Speaker 1: the baseball and and and and Tampa should be the

1918
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:30,360
Speaker 1: hockey and the and the NFL. But the point is,

1919
01:44:30,600 --> 01:44:33,200
Speaker 1: you couldn't introduce a second NFL team in that region.

1920
01:44:33,240 --> 01:44:36,920
Speaker 1: You couldn't introduce a second MLB team, et cetera. Can

1921
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:41,479
Speaker 1: San Antonio and Austin can they support Can you know

1922
01:44:42,360 --> 01:44:48,280
Speaker 1: san Antonio plays an occasional exhibition in Austin? I certainly

1923
01:44:48,280 --> 01:44:52,080
Speaker 1: think they claim Austin. I know that Jerry Jones doesn't

1924
01:44:52,080 --> 01:44:54,680
Speaker 1: want to see an NFL team in Austin or San Antonio,

1925
01:44:55,200 --> 01:44:57,280
Speaker 1: but boy, does it feel like that that region could

1926
01:44:57,280 --> 01:45:02,080
Speaker 1: support it. And and I think I think that the

1927
01:45:03,040 --> 01:45:05,880
Speaker 1: I think that there's no doubt baseball could do fine

1928
01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:11,719
Speaker 1: in Austin. So there's certainly a lot of money there.

1929
01:45:12,320 --> 01:45:14,920
Speaker 1: But my gut, if I were baseball, I'd do Salt

1930
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:21,040
Speaker 1: Lake in Nashville first. But Austin is you know, I

1931
01:45:21,160 --> 01:45:23,519
Speaker 1: keep waiting, You know, when's the NFL going to expand again?

1932
01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:26,719
Speaker 1: You want to talk about, you know, what they could

1933
01:45:26,720 --> 01:45:31,160
Speaker 1: get for a franchise fee ten billion they opened up

1934
01:45:31,160 --> 01:45:33,160
Speaker 1: a I think, you know, it's clear to I think

1935
01:45:33,160 --> 01:45:35,720
Speaker 1: the NFL the next time they expand, they want to

1936
01:45:35,800 --> 01:45:38,479
Speaker 1: probably put an international element. But I think with that's

1937
01:45:38,479 --> 01:45:41,639
Speaker 1: one thing. Trump is complicated, right, He's makes travel across

1938
01:45:41,680 --> 01:45:45,960
Speaker 1: borders so much more complicated. Now commerce across border is complicated.

1939
01:45:46,000 --> 01:45:48,040
Speaker 1: It also really hinders You know, there was some talk

1940
01:45:48,080 --> 01:45:49,960
Speaker 1: that Montreal would be on an expansion list. I don't

1941
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:52,599
Speaker 1: think so anymore on that front. So if you're asking

1942
01:45:52,640 --> 01:45:55,040
Speaker 1: me to rate the order, I think Nashville won, Salt

1943
01:45:55,120 --> 01:45:58,360
Speaker 1: Lake two, Austin three, and Portland, you know, which has

1944
01:45:58,400 --> 01:46:01,679
Speaker 1: always been in the runner spot. I just I don't

1945
01:46:01,680 --> 01:46:04,519
Speaker 1: see it there all right, next question, This next one

1946
01:46:04,520 --> 01:46:07,000
Speaker 1: comes from Lee from Seattle. Hey, Chuck, always appreciate your

1947
01:46:07,400 --> 01:46:11,240
Speaker 1: perspective and find great value in your commentary and interviews. Well,

1948
01:46:11,240 --> 01:46:13,719
Speaker 1: thank you. I understand your point about the Democrats falling

1949
01:46:13,760 --> 01:46:16,800
Speaker 1: into the pig wallow. This is almost the point counterpoint

1950
01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:20,160
Speaker 1: to the last question with the Republicans with respect to redistricting.

1951
01:46:20,200 --> 01:46:22,040
Speaker 1: I also see and lament the lack of leadership in

1952
01:46:22,040 --> 01:46:24,720
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party. But what's the response to Texas, if

1953
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:27,640
Speaker 1: not California. Our only short term capacity to contra act

1954
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:29,240
Speaker 1: Trump is to take the House of twenty six. So

1955
01:46:29,280 --> 01:46:31,960
Speaker 1: how do you rerespond? Nationwide protests won't stop them. I'd

1956
01:46:32,000 --> 01:46:35,320
Speaker 1: also prefer we not go low, but it's getting harder

1957
01:46:35,439 --> 01:46:37,719
Speaker 1: to hold on to that value. Thanks Lee from Seattle.

1958
01:46:38,120 --> 01:46:43,080
Speaker 1: I run a campaign like recruit candidates. I mean, I

1959
01:46:43,840 --> 01:46:47,080
Speaker 1: you know, I don't accept the premise that elections are

1960
01:46:47,120 --> 01:46:53,000
Speaker 1: unwinnable in some of these red states. You know, nobody

1961
01:46:53,080 --> 01:46:55,800
Speaker 1: thought that it was a good idea for Democrats to

1962
01:46:55,840 --> 01:46:58,360
Speaker 1: find a candidate in Nebraska to be and yet Dan

1963
01:46:58,400 --> 01:47:00,880
Speaker 1: Osborne ran as an independent, and that there was a

1964
01:47:01,080 --> 01:47:04,080
Speaker 1: there was there was an appetite for an alternative to

1965
01:47:04,120 --> 01:47:09,360
Speaker 1: the incumbent. You know, you know there's there's an appetite

1966
01:47:09,439 --> 01:47:12,320
Speaker 1: for an alternative. You just got to find the right

1967
01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:16,439
Speaker 1: messenger in the right message to do it. And so

1968
01:47:17,120 --> 01:47:19,640
Speaker 1: in Texas it's run a campaign. I mean, you know,

1969
01:47:20,520 --> 01:47:23,519
Speaker 1: why are Democrats in this moment because they have failed

1970
01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:27,000
Speaker 1: in the last decade to actually follow through on trying

1971
01:47:27,040 --> 01:47:30,559
Speaker 1: to make to build their party in Texas. Had they

1972
01:47:30,600 --> 01:47:33,320
Speaker 1: spent more time and effort building their party in Texas,

1973
01:47:33,840 --> 01:47:36,840
Speaker 1: they wouldn't be in this situation. I'm sorry, I don't

1974
01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:40,120
Speaker 1: think they would be in this situation. But they never have, right,

1975
01:47:40,160 --> 01:47:43,040
Speaker 1: They've always viewed, you know, Texas as a money hole,

1976
01:47:43,160 --> 01:47:46,560
Speaker 1: a money suck, right, It's it's sort of look, Republicans

1977
01:47:46,560 --> 01:47:49,080
Speaker 1: do the same thing with New Jersey. You know, they

1978
01:47:49,160 --> 01:47:50,800
Speaker 1: ought to. You know, they're not going to win in

1979
01:47:50,840 --> 01:47:53,280
Speaker 1: New Jersey, but they could if they invested more time

1980
01:47:53,320 --> 01:47:56,479
Speaker 1: and effort. But they don't because his you know, because

1981
01:47:56,520 --> 01:47:58,320
Speaker 1: every time they do, they come up short. So now

1982
01:47:58,320 --> 01:47:59,880
Speaker 1: they don't want to quote throw money away in the

1983
01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:02,960
Speaker 1: billion New York media markets. And I think that's the

1984
01:48:03,120 --> 01:48:06,599
Speaker 1: attitude that Democrats have about both Texas and Florida. They

1985
01:48:06,600 --> 01:48:11,559
Speaker 1: got closed but not close enough, right. But I just,

1986
01:48:11,680 --> 01:48:14,320
Speaker 1: you know, so I just can't. I just don't accept

1987
01:48:14,320 --> 01:48:18,320
Speaker 1: the premise. And I also think they're making other Republicans

1988
01:48:18,360 --> 01:48:22,040
Speaker 1: more vulnerable in Texas with what they're doing. And there

1989
01:48:22,160 --> 01:48:25,320
Speaker 1: is just you know, I think the Texas Republican Party

1990
01:48:25,880 --> 01:48:29,040
Speaker 1: is so vulnerable to disruption right now. Right, You've got

1991
01:48:29,200 --> 01:48:33,000
Speaker 1: half the party that supports a crook. This Ken Paxton

1992
01:48:33,080 --> 01:48:36,720
Speaker 1: guy is just my god, he's sort of he's just

1993
01:48:38,280 --> 01:48:40,840
Speaker 1: you know, using you know, state tax dollars to hide

1994
01:48:40,880 --> 01:48:46,479
Speaker 1: in an affair he was impeached for improper use of money.

1995
01:48:46,520 --> 01:48:51,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it clearly views politics as a grift. I mean,

1996
01:48:51,240 --> 01:48:54,120
Speaker 1: you know, and and you do have a divided Republican

1997
01:48:54,160 --> 01:48:57,559
Speaker 1: party in Texas. You know, basically the half that sort

1998
01:48:57,560 --> 01:49:00,120
Speaker 1: of closes their eyes and supports people like Paxton, and

1999
01:49:00,160 --> 01:49:02,200
Speaker 1: then there's this other half that is sort of the

2000
01:49:02,800 --> 01:49:06,600
Speaker 1: remnants of the Bush era who are just totally uncomfortable

2001
01:49:06,680 --> 01:49:11,200
Speaker 1: with the Trump form of politics, whether it's the conversation

2002
01:49:11,280 --> 01:49:15,000
Speaker 1: around immigration, or the conversation around business, or the conversation

2003
01:49:15,080 --> 01:49:20,240
Speaker 1: around some cultural issues. So I just, you know, I

2004
01:49:20,600 --> 01:49:23,680
Speaker 1: just the idea is, you know, you say, what's the alternative?

2005
01:49:24,200 --> 01:49:30,200
Speaker 1: Run a campaign, go, you know, go go engage the voters.

2006
01:49:30,240 --> 01:49:32,519
Speaker 1: And I know that sounds pollyannih and naive, but the

2007
01:49:32,560 --> 01:49:37,479
Speaker 1: fact is you can win by losing, you know, and

2008
01:49:37,760 --> 01:49:41,599
Speaker 1: you build an effort, you make them vulnerable, you make

2009
01:49:41,680 --> 01:49:45,360
Speaker 1: them answer. But to do it this way, you're actually

2010
01:49:45,520 --> 01:49:51,439
Speaker 1: only affirming the idea. If it's so outrageous what Texas

2011
01:49:51,520 --> 01:49:55,479
Speaker 1: is doing, then why replicate it? So I just, you know,

2012
01:49:55,520 --> 01:49:57,880
Speaker 1: I just think it complicates all sorts of messaging for

2013
01:49:57,960 --> 01:50:01,160
Speaker 1: the Democrats going forward, and it only is going to

2014
01:50:01,200 --> 01:50:03,400
Speaker 1: make them a weaker message, a weaker party, and a

2015
01:50:03,400 --> 01:50:06,880
Speaker 1: weaker messenger for whatever the electorate looks like in twenty

2016
01:50:06,920 --> 01:50:12,519
Speaker 1: twenty eight. So I don't understand why the alternative isn't

2017
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:17,080
Speaker 1: go recruit this young man, uh tallerco here that everybody

2018
01:50:17,160 --> 01:50:20,559
Speaker 1: is gaga over on the on the progressive side of things,

2019
01:50:21,120 --> 01:50:23,599
Speaker 1: and you know, get him to run a campaign for governor.

2020
01:50:25,800 --> 01:50:29,840
Speaker 1: But go run a campaign. This is the type of atmosphere.

2021
01:50:29,880 --> 01:50:34,080
Speaker 1: This is how you know this, this is how insurgencies succeed.

2022
01:50:34,920 --> 01:50:38,040
Speaker 1: But you actually got to pick up arms and be

2023
01:50:38,080 --> 01:50:43,640
Speaker 1: an insurgent. And and so until we see you know,

2024
01:50:43,800 --> 01:50:48,679
Speaker 1: to me, that's the answer. You know, trying and failing

2025
01:50:48,720 --> 01:50:51,400
Speaker 1: is better than not trying at all. You know what

2026
01:50:51,520 --> 01:50:54,559
Speaker 1: is what is the the Wayne Gretzky? You you miss

2027
01:50:54,600 --> 01:50:57,840
Speaker 1: one hundred percent of the shots. You don't take take

2028
01:50:57,840 --> 01:51:03,800
Speaker 1: a shot in Texas. All right, with that, I think

2029
01:51:03,840 --> 01:51:06,280
Speaker 1: I will wrap things up. I got a fun interview

2030
01:51:06,320 --> 01:51:10,200
Speaker 1: coming early next week. It'll be a little sports heavy

2031
01:51:10,760 --> 01:51:12,360
Speaker 1: for those of you that have enjoyed some of my

2032
01:51:12,400 --> 01:51:15,200
Speaker 1: sports stuff. It'll be with Colin Calvert. H He and

2033
01:51:15,240 --> 01:51:20,000
Speaker 1: I are share quite a few business relationships these days

2034
01:51:20,000 --> 01:51:22,200
Speaker 1: in the in the world of independent media and podcasting,

2035
01:51:22,600 --> 01:51:24,800
Speaker 1: so we gotten to know each other a little bit

2036
01:51:25,160 --> 01:51:28,200
Speaker 1: and I'm looking forward to that conversation, so be on

2037
01:51:28,240 --> 01:51:30,679
Speaker 1: the lookout for that in your feed early next week

2038
01:51:30,680 --> 01:51:32,559
Speaker 1: and with that until we upload again.