1 00:00:15,564 --> 00:00:28,604 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 2 00:00:28,684 --> 00:00:31,164 Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Kannakova. 3 00:00:30,804 --> 00:00:31,564 Speaker 2: And I'm Nate Silver. 4 00:00:32,444 --> 00:00:35,804 Speaker 3: Today on the show, we'll talk happiness. Why are people 5 00:00:35,884 --> 00:00:38,484 Speaker 3: in Finland so fucking happy? 6 00:00:39,764 --> 00:00:42,564 Speaker 1: It's because fucking and Cleland both start with enough. You 7 00:00:42,644 --> 00:00:44,404 Speaker 1: heard it here first, folks. 8 00:00:44,564 --> 00:00:47,524 Speaker 3: I am going We're gonna rely on a combination of 9 00:00:47,844 --> 00:00:53,204 Speaker 3: actual survey data and mildly politically incorrect antecdata from Nate's 10 00:00:53,244 --> 00:00:55,964 Speaker 3: travels around the world, but do some serious analysis of 11 00:00:56,124 --> 00:00:58,684 Speaker 3: like can you really tell which countries are happier? 12 00:00:58,924 --> 00:01:00,804 Speaker 2: You know, there's just that a meaningful thing, and so 13 00:01:01,004 --> 00:01:01,924 Speaker 2: what tends to predict it? 14 00:01:04,764 --> 00:01:08,644 Speaker 1: All right, let's let's do it. The World Happiness Report 15 00:01:08,764 --> 00:01:11,324 Speaker 1: came out a few months ago. It's not, you know, 16 00:01:11,804 --> 00:01:18,964 Speaker 1: not recent news, but the underlying issues are eternal, right, 17 00:01:19,084 --> 00:01:23,644 Speaker 1: because happiness and what makes people happy and how how 18 00:01:23,684 --> 00:01:26,764 Speaker 1: you can even have a happiness ranking? Those are things 19 00:01:26,804 --> 00:01:30,604 Speaker 1: that you know, those are perennial questions in psychology from 20 00:01:30,644 --> 00:01:34,804 Speaker 1: your standpoint, Nate, you know, statistics are very interesting here, 21 00:01:34,844 --> 00:01:38,164 Speaker 1: like how the hell do you rank how happy people are? 22 00:01:38,484 --> 00:01:42,444 Speaker 1: But anyhow so, according to this report, Finland has been 23 00:01:42,484 --> 00:01:44,924 Speaker 1: the happiest country in the world for a while now, 24 00:01:45,484 --> 00:01:48,244 Speaker 1: from multiple years. And I've never been to Finland, but 25 00:01:48,284 --> 00:01:50,084 Speaker 1: you are something of a Finland expert. 26 00:01:50,164 --> 00:01:54,404 Speaker 2: I bacently. You know. 27 00:01:54,484 --> 00:01:56,924 Speaker 3: Look, my partner and I have a joke about like 28 00:01:57,684 --> 00:02:00,284 Speaker 3: European American man travels to Europe and is now expert 29 00:02:00,324 --> 00:02:05,684 Speaker 3: on Europe, right, and with like, yeah, I guess the 30 00:02:05,684 --> 00:02:07,684 Speaker 3: European I don't think i've any Nordic ancestry. 31 00:02:07,764 --> 00:02:07,924 Speaker 2: Yeah. 32 00:02:07,964 --> 00:02:12,124 Speaker 3: I went to Finland and to Norway back over Labor 33 00:02:12,164 --> 00:02:15,044 Speaker 3: Day and had a great time. And those are both 34 00:02:15,084 --> 00:02:19,404 Speaker 3: countries that are rated near the top, particularly Finland. And 35 00:02:19,444 --> 00:02:21,044 Speaker 3: I guess the question is, like, when you're on the 36 00:02:21,084 --> 00:02:25,484 Speaker 3: ground in Finland, do you notice outward signs of happiness? 37 00:02:25,564 --> 00:02:27,604 Speaker 2: I noticed a lot of drinking. 38 00:02:27,724 --> 00:02:29,564 Speaker 3: You go to the restaurant and you're offered a drink 39 00:02:29,604 --> 00:02:31,724 Speaker 3: faster than anywhere I've ever been. I don't know where 40 00:02:31,724 --> 00:02:34,244 Speaker 3: that fits into this, right. And notice the sauna I went, 41 00:02:34,404 --> 00:02:37,924 Speaker 3: like the nice like tourists sauna seems kind of chilly. 42 00:02:37,964 --> 00:02:38,564 Speaker 2: Just chill out. 43 00:02:38,764 --> 00:02:42,044 Speaker 3: You can like actually basically grab more coals, get like 44 00:02:42,084 --> 00:02:45,124 Speaker 3: a little shovel and grab more coals and put them 45 00:02:45,124 --> 00:02:47,644 Speaker 3: in a burner and it makes a strong higher that 46 00:02:47,724 --> 00:02:50,204 Speaker 3: seems very fun, Like that's gotta be worth like alone, 47 00:02:50,804 --> 00:02:53,644 Speaker 3: like point two points of the on the ten point scale. 48 00:02:53,804 --> 00:02:59,564 Speaker 3: I think good design and architecture. I notice good like 49 00:03:00,244 --> 00:03:03,724 Speaker 3: accommodations for children and like disabled and elderly people more 50 00:03:03,764 --> 00:03:07,884 Speaker 3: than you find elsewhere in the world. The food was 51 00:03:07,964 --> 00:03:12,444 Speaker 3: surprisingly good. We had excellent Georgian food. We had wow, 52 00:03:12,644 --> 00:03:17,124 Speaker 3: excellent kind of Sicilian food that has like finished flourishes 53 00:03:17,164 --> 00:03:18,604 Speaker 3: with the Sicilian food, and. 54 00:03:18,524 --> 00:03:19,684 Speaker 2: Like, oh, that's fascinating. 55 00:03:19,724 --> 00:03:22,404 Speaker 3: No, I mean, yeah, nice city, hell Sinky not actually 56 00:03:22,444 --> 00:03:25,164 Speaker 3: as populous as it seems. And then Norway they just 57 00:03:25,204 --> 00:03:27,844 Speaker 3: have the fucking like most beautiful landscapes. 58 00:03:28,524 --> 00:03:32,284 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, but you know, I haven't been to Norway either, 59 00:03:32,364 --> 00:03:34,444 Speaker 1: but I really want to go, like the I want 60 00:03:34,444 --> 00:03:36,444 Speaker 1: to go to Finland as well, So I don't want 61 00:03:36,484 --> 00:03:39,524 Speaker 1: the fence to take this amiss. But the Fjords in Norway, 62 00:03:39,524 --> 00:03:43,044 Speaker 1: I mean, man, their reputation just precedes them, and I 63 00:03:43,324 --> 00:03:44,524 Speaker 1: would really love to see that. 64 00:03:44,804 --> 00:03:46,444 Speaker 3: The first day we were there, my partner like kind 65 00:03:46,444 --> 00:03:50,324 Speaker 3: of drove out to like some little little mini fjords, right, 66 00:03:50,404 --> 00:03:54,444 Speaker 3: and we're like, this is like Maine, It's pretty fucking nice, right, 67 00:03:54,484 --> 00:03:58,164 Speaker 3: And then we took a cruise to the real It's like, 68 00:03:58,204 --> 00:04:04,484 Speaker 3: that's not nice. That's nice. 69 00:03:59,764 --> 00:04:02,564 Speaker 2: It's nice. 70 00:04:06,324 --> 00:04:06,924 Speaker 1: That's a lot. 71 00:04:08,524 --> 00:04:10,684 Speaker 2: That's not a field. That's a fuel. By the way, 72 00:04:10,724 --> 00:04:13,244 Speaker 2: do you know do you know that the Hudson River 73 00:04:13,324 --> 00:04:14,524 Speaker 2: Valley is a fjord? 74 00:04:15,524 --> 00:04:18,124 Speaker 1: I did not know that. Actually I think I did 75 00:04:18,164 --> 00:04:20,084 Speaker 1: know that at some point in time, but I forgot 76 00:04:20,124 --> 00:04:22,644 Speaker 1: from now I ree large it. Yeah, I think you've 77 00:04:22,644 --> 00:04:25,084 Speaker 1: probably told me this in the past, but thank you 78 00:04:25,164 --> 00:04:28,004 Speaker 1: for retelling me, because I've effectively forgotten. 79 00:04:28,724 --> 00:04:31,044 Speaker 3: So as a fjord expert, I have to tell you 80 00:04:31,084 --> 00:04:35,444 Speaker 3: that these fucking fiords were like, you know, Macha Peach 81 00:04:35,564 --> 00:04:38,284 Speaker 3: is pretty amazing and like Hawaii, like. 82 00:04:38,204 --> 00:04:40,644 Speaker 2: This is probably the top three. I guess that I've 83 00:04:40,684 --> 00:04:40,964 Speaker 2: been too. 84 00:04:42,004 --> 00:04:45,484 Speaker 1: That's great. Well, this is this is all good. We've 85 00:04:45,484 --> 00:04:48,964 Speaker 1: got some local color. Now let's step back a little 86 00:04:49,004 --> 00:04:51,204 Speaker 1: bit and talk just a little bit about how this 87 00:04:51,284 --> 00:04:55,324 Speaker 1: World Happiness Report, how the ranking is created. So they 88 00:04:55,444 --> 00:04:59,844 Speaker 1: actually based the ranking on one single question called the 89 00:04:59,964 --> 00:05:03,604 Speaker 1: Cantrell Ladder. And this is the question. So, Nate, you 90 00:05:03,644 --> 00:05:06,924 Speaker 1: have to imagine a ladder with steps numbered from zero 91 00:05:06,964 --> 00:05:09,684 Speaker 1: at the bottom to ten at the top. The top 92 00:05:09,724 --> 00:05:12,284 Speaker 1: of the ladder is the best possible life for you, 93 00:05:12,724 --> 00:05:15,604 Speaker 1: The bottom of the ladder is the worst possible life 94 00:05:15,644 --> 00:05:18,684 Speaker 1: for you. On which step of the ladder would you 95 00:05:18,724 --> 00:05:22,444 Speaker 1: say you personally feel you stand at this time? So 96 00:05:22,484 --> 00:05:24,484 Speaker 1: that is the one question that they use. 97 00:05:24,764 --> 00:05:25,764 Speaker 2: Are you are you asking me? 98 00:05:26,044 --> 00:05:26,404 Speaker 1: Yeah? 99 00:05:26,404 --> 00:05:27,524 Speaker 2: Go ahead? What do you think? 100 00:05:28,164 --> 00:05:29,284 Speaker 1: Nine? 101 00:05:29,604 --> 00:05:29,924 Speaker 2: Nice? 102 00:05:30,804 --> 00:05:33,844 Speaker 3: I'm trying to be realistic, right, like best possible versus 103 00:05:33,884 --> 00:05:36,324 Speaker 3: like do I think I got a pretty good draw 104 00:05:36,484 --> 00:05:37,284 Speaker 3: for a lot of things? 105 00:05:37,364 --> 00:05:37,844 Speaker 2: Yeah? 106 00:05:37,884 --> 00:05:41,524 Speaker 1: Sure? And so the data for this are collected actually 107 00:05:41,564 --> 00:05:45,764 Speaker 1: by the Gallop World Pole And so you know, insofar 108 00:05:46,004 --> 00:05:49,284 Speaker 1: as you know you have any kind of thoughts about 109 00:05:49,284 --> 00:05:51,844 Speaker 1: the quality of the data, that's that's where they're coming from. 110 00:05:52,084 --> 00:05:53,804 Speaker 1: So they're not doing a poll of their own. They're 111 00:05:53,844 --> 00:05:58,124 Speaker 1: just taking that one question from Gallop, which has been 112 00:05:58,124 --> 00:06:01,364 Speaker 1: conducted since two thousand and five, and every single year 113 00:06:01,644 --> 00:06:04,244 Speaker 1: it's about a little bit over one hundred thousand people 114 00:06:04,364 --> 00:06:08,044 Speaker 1: in one hundred and forty thousand countries and territories that 115 00:06:08,084 --> 00:06:10,804 Speaker 1: participate in the poll, and so it's about a thousand 116 00:06:10,884 --> 00:06:15,404 Speaker 1: people per country that are contacted either face to face 117 00:06:15,604 --> 00:06:20,964 Speaker 1: or by phone. And what this report does is they 118 00:06:21,044 --> 00:06:24,364 Speaker 1: take the rankings from the last three years for each country, 119 00:06:24,404 --> 00:06:27,164 Speaker 1: and they average them so that they get a higher 120 00:06:28,004 --> 00:06:32,964 Speaker 1: size of respondents. So, for instance, their two thousand and 121 00:06:33,004 --> 00:06:35,204 Speaker 1: five rankings are actually two thousand and two to two 122 00:06:35,204 --> 00:06:39,164 Speaker 1: thousand four, so that they get at least three thousand 123 00:06:39,404 --> 00:06:43,724 Speaker 1: people per country that they include. If countries have significantly 124 00:06:43,764 --> 00:06:47,124 Speaker 1: fewer than this, they exclude them from the rankings. So 125 00:06:47,444 --> 00:06:50,164 Speaker 1: just first, like, in terms of statistics, how does this 126 00:06:50,684 --> 00:06:53,564 Speaker 1: strike you in terms of sample size, In terms of 127 00:06:53,604 --> 00:06:56,364 Speaker 1: how the Gallup pole does its sampling, Gallup tends to 128 00:06:56,444 --> 00:06:58,324 Speaker 1: be one of the more reliable poles. 129 00:06:58,124 --> 00:07:01,964 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, Look, I think there can always be sampling 130 00:07:01,964 --> 00:07:04,524 Speaker 3: biases and who's surveyed and who's not right. You know, 131 00:07:04,604 --> 00:07:07,004 Speaker 3: in general, people who are disadvantaged in various ways are 132 00:07:07,004 --> 00:07:10,404 Speaker 3: harder to reach via pole. I think the bigger question 133 00:07:10,484 --> 00:07:13,644 Speaker 3: is like how universal is this? 134 00:07:14,444 --> 00:07:19,564 Speaker 1: Yeah question right, Yeah, that is a huge question. And 135 00:07:19,604 --> 00:07:22,284 Speaker 1: the reason they tried to do this ladder is because 136 00:07:22,284 --> 00:07:24,244 Speaker 1: I think it's one of the more universal ways that 137 00:07:24,284 --> 00:07:27,044 Speaker 1: you can ask it, right, that it doesn't have any 138 00:07:27,084 --> 00:07:30,484 Speaker 1: sort of cultural baggage or any other things that might 139 00:07:31,044 --> 00:07:35,364 Speaker 1: you know, in some countries, factor X might be something 140 00:07:35,404 --> 00:07:39,284 Speaker 1: that you associate with happiness, whereas in others that might 141 00:07:39,564 --> 00:07:42,204 Speaker 1: you know, that might tell you something totally different. So 142 00:07:42,244 --> 00:07:45,364 Speaker 1: they've tried to get this universal question. Now, I will 143 00:07:45,404 --> 00:07:50,484 Speaker 1: caveat this by saying, in psychology research, like self report 144 00:07:50,564 --> 00:07:55,844 Speaker 1: it's kind of like democracy, it's the best possible system 145 00:07:55,884 --> 00:07:58,244 Speaker 1: of governess out of a lot of bad ones, right 146 00:07:59,004 --> 00:08:01,244 Speaker 1: in the sense that it's not perfect, and there are 147 00:08:01,324 --> 00:08:04,324 Speaker 1: lots and lots of issues with self report data, but 148 00:08:04,564 --> 00:08:06,724 Speaker 1: it's kind of the best we have, right in the 149 00:08:06,764 --> 00:08:09,004 Speaker 1: sense of, like, well, how else are you going to 150 00:08:09,044 --> 00:08:12,204 Speaker 1: ask something that's so internal. We're not asking about like 151 00:08:12,564 --> 00:08:16,884 Speaker 1: something that we can measure as in like your exact income, 152 00:08:16,964 --> 00:08:19,044 Speaker 1: quality of life, et cetera, et cetera. We're asking about 153 00:08:19,044 --> 00:08:22,524 Speaker 1: how happy you personally are, and so the best thing 154 00:08:22,564 --> 00:08:24,924 Speaker 1: we can do is just ask you directly. But we 155 00:08:25,044 --> 00:08:28,604 Speaker 1: know that those sorts of data are problematic, right, that 156 00:08:29,004 --> 00:08:33,124 Speaker 1: asking people is not always well, you know, it's the 157 00:08:33,124 --> 00:08:34,284 Speaker 1: best we have. It's the best we have. 158 00:08:34,324 --> 00:08:38,324 Speaker 3: It's probably better than experts presuming oh yeah, tell me 159 00:08:38,324 --> 00:08:40,604 Speaker 3: you're happy, Maria. But there's a whole debate about like 160 00:08:40,644 --> 00:08:44,844 Speaker 3: whether conservatives or liberals are more happy or basically liberal 161 00:08:44,924 --> 00:08:48,364 Speaker 3: self report lower happiness. There's a debate about like how 162 00:08:48,484 --> 00:08:52,044 Speaker 3: literally that should be interpreted. We can circle back to 163 00:08:52,084 --> 00:08:54,924 Speaker 3: that maybe. I mean, you know, one other things it 164 00:08:54,924 --> 00:09:00,164 Speaker 3: seems certainly about this latter formulation is it might encourage 165 00:09:00,164 --> 00:09:04,604 Speaker 3: you to like look around at your neighborhood, at nearby 166 00:09:04,724 --> 00:09:08,764 Speaker 3: examples approximate examples of people who are better off than you. 167 00:09:09,084 --> 00:09:14,644 Speaker 3: Right in the United States, in the Middle East, we 168 00:09:14,844 --> 00:09:21,164 Speaker 3: have very prominent examples of extreme wealth and extreme excess 169 00:09:21,244 --> 00:09:25,484 Speaker 3: and or excellence and or achievement and or privilege right 170 00:09:26,844 --> 00:09:30,284 Speaker 3: in everything pretty much right, the US seems to be 171 00:09:31,124 --> 00:09:34,524 Speaker 3: I've actually run some numbers on this stuff, relatively like 172 00:09:34,684 --> 00:09:37,484 Speaker 3: pretty happy country, right, but like we're a little lower 173 00:09:37,484 --> 00:09:42,004 Speaker 3: than you'd think given how rich we are overall. So 174 00:09:42,404 --> 00:09:46,324 Speaker 3: you know, what do countries like Finland have in common? 175 00:09:46,964 --> 00:09:52,404 Speaker 3: Number one, they have relatively low wealth and incommun inequality 176 00:09:52,764 --> 00:09:56,124 Speaker 3: relatively low. Where floor is high, the ceiling is also 177 00:09:57,204 --> 00:10:01,524 Speaker 3: high ish, right, but like relatively low compared to US, China, 178 00:10:01,644 --> 00:10:02,324 Speaker 3: Middle East. 179 00:10:02,204 --> 00:10:02,964 Speaker 2: Latin America. 180 00:10:03,484 --> 00:10:05,484 Speaker 1: And by the way, let me just caveat that with 181 00:10:05,604 --> 00:10:07,924 Speaker 1: saying that a lot of the countries that are at 182 00:10:07,924 --> 00:10:10,244 Speaker 1: the top of these polls tend to be smaller, and 183 00:10:10,324 --> 00:10:11,364 Speaker 1: I think that goes hand in. 184 00:10:11,284 --> 00:10:15,364 Speaker 2: Hand, you know, I mean, it's not true for all 185 00:10:15,724 --> 00:10:19,444 Speaker 2: small countries, right, like Finland. Also like Greece. 186 00:10:19,484 --> 00:10:21,644 Speaker 3: We had a very nice time in Athens a few 187 00:10:21,684 --> 00:10:23,564 Speaker 3: years ago, and we thought we're going to go around 188 00:10:23,524 --> 00:10:25,124 Speaker 3: Athle's going to be born. We just loved Athens so 189 00:10:25,164 --> 00:10:28,404 Speaker 3: much we just stayed there. Right, But Greece has been 190 00:10:28,444 --> 00:10:31,244 Speaker 3: through a lot in terms of economic distress and bailouts. 191 00:10:31,244 --> 00:10:35,004 Speaker 3: Greece has a lot of history, a lot of baggage 192 00:10:35,564 --> 00:10:37,764 Speaker 3: with that history. One of my good friends is Greek 193 00:10:37,804 --> 00:10:41,244 Speaker 3: American and it's a little bit of an angstier kind 194 00:10:41,244 --> 00:10:42,364 Speaker 3: of culture. 195 00:10:42,404 --> 00:10:43,924 Speaker 2: I think I get a lot you know Reeks. 196 00:10:43,684 --> 00:10:47,524 Speaker 3: In the Russians and the Jews that kind of very happy. 197 00:10:47,644 --> 00:10:50,884 Speaker 3: They kind of have some similar stories, right. 198 00:10:51,084 --> 00:10:51,684 Speaker 2: You know Italy. 199 00:10:51,764 --> 00:10:53,724 Speaker 3: I went to Italy on a Booktoria, and like you know, 200 00:10:53,724 --> 00:10:55,644 Speaker 3: the guy who transit book, he's like, yeah, all Italians 201 00:10:55,644 --> 00:10:57,924 Speaker 3: were still living in the shadow of like our our 202 00:10:57,964 --> 00:10:59,924 Speaker 3: history in Italy is a country it's like not super happy. 203 00:10:59,964 --> 00:11:03,004 Speaker 3: So like a country that's like content with its place 204 00:11:03,724 --> 00:11:07,284 Speaker 3: in the world and or which teaches contentment, it seems 205 00:11:07,324 --> 00:11:10,444 Speaker 3: like it's going to excel on this survey, which is 206 00:11:10,484 --> 00:11:12,644 Speaker 3: not to say it's not a valid measure, but like 207 00:11:12,644 --> 00:11:14,764 Speaker 3: that context I think is important, and the small thing 208 00:11:14,804 --> 00:11:16,644 Speaker 3: is important to almost all the countries that rank highly 209 00:11:16,684 --> 00:11:21,164 Speaker 3: are are small. They are not necessarily someone. Thing I 210 00:11:21,204 --> 00:11:25,604 Speaker 3: looked at is is there a correlation because we can 211 00:11:25,644 --> 00:11:28,364 Speaker 3: be on PC on the show Maria, Sure, is there 212 00:11:28,524 --> 00:11:32,124 Speaker 3: a correlation and either direction between the number of foreign 213 00:11:32,204 --> 00:11:34,844 Speaker 3: born residents and happiness controlling for their factors. 214 00:11:35,364 --> 00:11:38,644 Speaker 1: That's a super important question, Like let's it doesn't matter 215 00:11:38,684 --> 00:11:42,524 Speaker 1: whether we're PC or not. Like this is actually yeah important, is. 216 00:11:42,884 --> 00:11:48,564 Speaker 3: No, Actually, if anything, there's a positive correlation because countries 217 00:11:48,604 --> 00:11:51,604 Speaker 3: that are more successful tend to attract more immigrants if 218 00:11:51,604 --> 00:11:52,804 Speaker 3: they should let them in. 219 00:11:53,164 --> 00:11:55,364 Speaker 2: Right now, what do. 220 00:11:55,364 --> 00:11:56,804 Speaker 3: You think some people would say is that in these 221 00:11:56,804 --> 00:12:02,884 Speaker 3: smaller countries that you're able to incorporate the other cultures 222 00:12:03,724 --> 00:12:05,044 Speaker 3: more organically, right. 223 00:12:04,924 --> 00:12:05,804 Speaker 2: I don't if if that's true. 224 00:12:05,964 --> 00:12:09,324 Speaker 3: I mean, if you go to Finland, there is a 225 00:12:10,364 --> 00:12:15,564 Speaker 3: you know, there are tons of ethnic quote unquote restaurants everywhere, 226 00:12:15,604 --> 00:12:17,324 Speaker 3: and I'm sure that you know, the spice level is 227 00:12:17,324 --> 00:12:20,044 Speaker 3: probably a little bit done down, but like but you know, 228 00:12:20,084 --> 00:12:25,564 Speaker 3: but like it's a it's a pretty multicultural place. I think, 229 00:12:25,644 --> 00:12:27,924 Speaker 3: you know, Norway, The impression I get is that Nori's 230 00:12:27,924 --> 00:12:31,084 Speaker 3: little stricter about certain types of things, right, so it 231 00:12:31,164 --> 00:12:34,004 Speaker 3: might very more from place to place, or you know, if. 232 00:12:33,924 --> 00:12:34,644 Speaker 2: You're too strict. 233 00:12:35,044 --> 00:12:39,644 Speaker 3: I mean, Italy and Japan are places where israelis have been, right, 234 00:12:39,804 --> 00:12:42,244 Speaker 3: where it's thought to be a little bit harder to 235 00:12:42,484 --> 00:12:46,644 Speaker 3: integrate potentially, right, you know, whereas South Korea is a 236 00:12:46,644 --> 00:12:48,324 Speaker 3: little more open minded. But like, so there's lots of 237 00:12:48,364 --> 00:12:50,604 Speaker 3: different factors happening here. I think also, you know, so 238 00:12:50,604 --> 00:12:54,804 Speaker 3: South Korea is a country that like is both according 239 00:12:54,804 --> 00:12:57,884 Speaker 3: to the survey and according to some measures, like mental 240 00:12:57,924 --> 00:13:00,364 Speaker 3: health measures. You know, I could argue that fertility rate 241 00:13:01,044 --> 00:13:03,764 Speaker 3: might be an indicator of something, right, Like South Korea 242 00:13:04,004 --> 00:13:10,044 Speaker 3: is kind of unhappy, but like it grew prodigiously from 243 00:13:10,124 --> 00:13:13,164 Speaker 3: like being in the lower end of developing countries right 244 00:13:13,644 --> 00:13:17,324 Speaker 3: forty years ago to higher per GDP per capitive in 245 00:13:18,764 --> 00:13:20,604 Speaker 3: Japan and all but a handful of countries in the 246 00:13:20,644 --> 00:13:23,724 Speaker 3: world now, right, And like, you know, I wonder if 247 00:13:23,724 --> 00:13:28,124 Speaker 3: that growing up too fast show leads to some angst, 248 00:13:28,204 --> 00:13:29,004 Speaker 3: the sense of like. 249 00:13:29,364 --> 00:13:34,724 Speaker 1: Yeah, some dislocation, yeah yeah. So when I think these 250 00:13:34,724 --> 00:13:39,004 Speaker 1: are all really really important considerations, and the World Happiness 251 00:13:39,004 --> 00:13:42,924 Speaker 1: Report team did try to kind of do some economic 252 00:13:43,004 --> 00:13:46,324 Speaker 1: modeling to look at the variation as well, and they 253 00:13:46,404 --> 00:13:50,964 Speaker 1: found that there are six variables that from two thousand 254 00:13:51,004 --> 00:13:54,804 Speaker 1: and five onwards account for about three quarters of the 255 00:13:54,884 --> 00:13:59,204 Speaker 1: variation and happiness. And those variables are having somebody to 256 00:13:59,284 --> 00:14:02,604 Speaker 1: count on, so kind of social support, which makes sense, right, 257 00:14:02,644 --> 00:14:05,484 Speaker 1: and that dovetails with a lot of research on happiness. 258 00:14:05,484 --> 00:14:08,084 Speaker 1: We can talk more about that community support, et cetera. 259 00:14:08,724 --> 00:14:11,844 Speaker 1: Log GDP per capita, Nate, You'll have to break that 260 00:14:11,924 --> 00:14:14,804 Speaker 1: down a little bit for people, because log GDP per 261 00:14:14,884 --> 00:14:17,284 Speaker 1: capita is not like something that rolls off the tongue. 262 00:14:18,004 --> 00:14:24,364 Speaker 1: Healthy life expectancy obviously important, freedom to make life choices, generosity, 263 00:14:24,484 --> 00:14:27,844 Speaker 1: and freedom from corruption. So those are the six factors 264 00:14:27,884 --> 00:14:32,924 Speaker 1: that they found correlate most highly with that overall ranking. 265 00:14:33,164 --> 00:14:35,964 Speaker 1: So log GDP per capita, can you just unpack that 266 00:14:36,004 --> 00:14:37,924 Speaker 1: for a second and then we'll talk about everything else. 267 00:14:38,684 --> 00:14:41,644 Speaker 3: Uh, that just means that you're taking the natural logarithm, 268 00:14:41,724 --> 00:14:43,644 Speaker 3: So it depends on which base you're using. But like 269 00:14:44,044 --> 00:14:46,484 Speaker 3: you know, if you have, like what's the per capita 270 00:14:46,524 --> 00:14:52,244 Speaker 3: income of Mexico is twenty thousand, night that might be wrong, 271 00:14:52,444 --> 00:14:54,964 Speaker 3: eighteen thousand. I have no idea, right, whereas in like Norway, 272 00:14:55,004 --> 00:14:59,164 Speaker 3: it's like one hundred thousand. Right, the day to day 273 00:14:59,244 --> 00:15:05,044 Speaker 3: life is not five times better in Norway than in Mexico. Right, 274 00:15:05,124 --> 00:15:09,284 Speaker 3: kind of practical realized wealth, even if you use kind 275 00:15:09,284 --> 00:15:11,924 Speaker 3: of purchasing powered, parody adjusted. 276 00:15:11,564 --> 00:15:13,444 Speaker 2: Versions of it. Right, So long as you just saying there's 277 00:15:13,444 --> 00:15:14,764 Speaker 2: diminishing returns to. 278 00:15:14,804 --> 00:15:20,324 Speaker 1: Wealth, great and fourteen thousand Mexico is thirteen thousand, okay, yeah, 279 00:15:20,324 --> 00:15:23,484 Speaker 1: but like four thousand dollars like sid really work huntry 280 00:15:23,484 --> 00:15:28,204 Speaker 1: in Africa versus fourteen thousand is a bigger difference than 281 00:15:28,324 --> 00:15:31,084 Speaker 1: four two hundred thousand are similar at least, right. 282 00:15:31,004 --> 00:15:32,724 Speaker 2: And like a large scale will at least at least 283 00:15:32,724 --> 00:15:33,804 Speaker 2: compress that a little bit. 284 00:15:34,444 --> 00:15:37,524 Speaker 1: Yeah, So that actually makes a lot of sense because 285 00:15:38,004 --> 00:15:41,244 Speaker 1: what we know about happiness from kind of the happiness 286 00:15:41,244 --> 00:15:45,644 Speaker 1: research outside of this particular measure or anything like that, 287 00:15:46,124 --> 00:15:52,324 Speaker 1: is that the old takeaway that, oh, you know, you 288 00:15:52,364 --> 00:15:57,084 Speaker 1: can't buy happiness as bullshit, that's not true. Money does matter, 289 00:15:57,844 --> 00:16:00,804 Speaker 1: and you do have to have a certain amount of money, 290 00:16:01,084 --> 00:16:04,564 Speaker 1: and with more money you do get happier, but there 291 00:16:04,564 --> 00:16:07,364 Speaker 1: are diminishing returns, right, So that's true up to a 292 00:16:07,364 --> 00:16:09,964 Speaker 1: certain point. And that it kind of flattens out, so 293 00:16:10,044 --> 00:16:14,604 Speaker 1: there it's much more nuanced. But yes, after a certain rate, 294 00:16:14,684 --> 00:16:17,564 Speaker 1: like those returns are so high at the beginning, and 295 00:16:17,604 --> 00:16:19,964 Speaker 1: then once you're kind of comfortable and are able to 296 00:16:20,164 --> 00:16:24,004 Speaker 1: like have some sort of certainty, right, some sort of stability, 297 00:16:24,324 --> 00:16:28,164 Speaker 1: after that, the returns are still there, right, but they 298 00:16:28,204 --> 00:16:31,684 Speaker 1: are lower than they were at the beginning when you 299 00:16:31,724 --> 00:16:33,484 Speaker 1: had to do that. You know, as you say, like 300 00:16:33,524 --> 00:16:36,324 Speaker 1: from four thousand to fourteen thousand, like that is huge, 301 00:16:36,924 --> 00:16:39,524 Speaker 1: like that and kind of standard of living. 302 00:16:39,484 --> 00:16:41,844 Speaker 3: You've seen a lot of, I mean, you can argue 303 00:16:41,884 --> 00:16:44,924 Speaker 3: that like Western Europe is taking a little bit of 304 00:16:44,924 --> 00:16:48,524 Speaker 3: it off ramp from further growth in GDP. 305 00:16:48,764 --> 00:16:51,724 Speaker 2: Right, if you have, like if every. 306 00:16:51,644 --> 00:16:57,284 Speaker 3: Person has access to their own home, access to healthcare, 307 00:16:57,324 --> 00:17:02,124 Speaker 3: access to purchase meals and necessities at least, and then 308 00:17:02,124 --> 00:17:05,444 Speaker 3: to have some small little luxuries and to have like 309 00:17:06,124 --> 00:17:11,084 Speaker 3: a workday that doesn't work require them to work in 310 00:17:11,124 --> 00:17:15,204 Speaker 3: adverse conditions or excessive numbers of hours, right, like you know, 311 00:17:15,644 --> 00:17:17,924 Speaker 3: and some family or friends support networks. 312 00:17:18,004 --> 00:17:21,284 Speaker 2: Right though that's done easy list of things. It's a 313 00:17:21,364 --> 00:17:22,844 Speaker 2: small list of whatsoever. 314 00:17:22,924 --> 00:17:26,644 Speaker 3: Right, But like you know, maybe when you get to that, 315 00:17:26,924 --> 00:17:31,724 Speaker 3: then people have rationally less incentive for further gains, and 316 00:17:31,764 --> 00:17:34,084 Speaker 3: to the extent you do have gains, it might be 317 00:17:34,204 --> 00:17:39,484 Speaker 3: from the financialization of different sectors, and or it might 318 00:17:39,524 --> 00:17:41,964 Speaker 3: be from people who do what really want to take risks, right, 319 00:17:41,964 --> 00:17:45,164 Speaker 3: people who are playing the game and like that. You know, America, China, 320 00:17:45,204 --> 00:17:48,084 Speaker 3: Middle East, these more dynamic quote unquote places have more 321 00:17:48,124 --> 00:17:51,444 Speaker 3: of that than than Europe, where you talk to Europeans like, 322 00:17:51,484 --> 00:17:53,644 Speaker 3: what are the front of your AI labs in Europe? Like, oh, 323 00:17:53,644 --> 00:17:56,764 Speaker 3: I don't have any, you know, I mean literally, So 324 00:17:56,804 --> 00:17:57,764 Speaker 3: that's that's interesting. 325 00:17:57,924 --> 00:18:02,684 Speaker 1: I suppose that's really interesting. And most of the top 326 00:18:02,764 --> 00:18:07,604 Speaker 1: rated countries are in Europe, right for in terms of happiness, 327 00:18:08,284 --> 00:18:09,164 Speaker 1: which is yeah. 328 00:18:09,004 --> 00:18:11,244 Speaker 2: They're most of them almost all. I think Canada is 329 00:18:11,244 --> 00:18:14,204 Speaker 2: pretty well, right yeah, I mean there are culture you know, 330 00:18:14,324 --> 00:18:15,724 Speaker 2: in general relative to. 331 00:18:17,324 --> 00:18:21,564 Speaker 3: Relative to GDP, the Americas are like, you know, Latin 332 00:18:21,644 --> 00:18:27,444 Speaker 3: America is a happier region than Asia controlling for GDP and. 333 00:18:27,364 --> 00:18:31,164 Speaker 2: These other fastors. Right, yes, why is it true? I 334 00:18:31,204 --> 00:18:31,484 Speaker 2: don't know. 335 00:18:31,524 --> 00:18:33,244 Speaker 3: It's easy to kind of backfit. You know, you go 336 00:18:33,284 --> 00:18:34,324 Speaker 3: to Mexico or Peru and. 337 00:18:34,324 --> 00:18:36,204 Speaker 2: You're like, oh, people just kind of the culture is 338 00:18:36,244 --> 00:18:37,804 Speaker 2: sunnier and people see, yeah, you. 339 00:18:37,844 --> 00:18:41,204 Speaker 1: Know, for sure, but there are I mean something that 340 00:18:41,284 --> 00:18:46,244 Speaker 1: this kind of type of ranking doesn't measure that I think, 341 00:18:46,564 --> 00:18:50,524 Speaker 1: you know, might partially explain what we're seeing with South 342 00:18:50,524 --> 00:18:54,644 Speaker 1: America versus Asia, is that there are cultural differences in 343 00:18:54,724 --> 00:19:00,524 Speaker 1: how people just kind of their baseline how they experience life. Right, 344 00:19:00,564 --> 00:19:03,044 Speaker 1: it's the way that they kind of grew up, the 345 00:19:03,164 --> 00:19:05,564 Speaker 1: language that they grew up using, kind of the things 346 00:19:05,564 --> 00:19:09,124 Speaker 1: that have been socialized from early childhood in terms of 347 00:19:09,684 --> 00:19:13,044 Speaker 1: like what's your attitude? Right, are you an optimist? Are 348 00:19:13,084 --> 00:19:15,444 Speaker 1: you a pessimist? Like this sounds kind of crazy, but 349 00:19:15,484 --> 00:19:17,724 Speaker 1: there are some cultures that are actually like just inherently 350 00:19:17,764 --> 00:19:20,604 Speaker 1: more optimistic cultures. There are some cultures that are just 351 00:19:20,724 --> 00:19:25,364 Speaker 1: inherently more pessimistic cultures. And that kind of stuff matters, right, 352 00:19:25,404 --> 00:19:28,844 Speaker 1: because those kinds of mindsets, those kinds of psychological shifts, 353 00:19:29,044 --> 00:19:31,644 Speaker 1: can actually affect how you feel on a day to 354 00:19:31,724 --> 00:19:35,444 Speaker 1: day basis. And so there are these just like baseline 355 00:19:35,484 --> 00:19:41,364 Speaker 1: factors that exist that you've just learned from, you know, 356 00:19:41,604 --> 00:19:43,924 Speaker 1: from day one, right, that's just the way that you 357 00:19:43,964 --> 00:19:46,804 Speaker 1: were raised. And none of these surveys capture that. 358 00:19:47,884 --> 00:19:50,404 Speaker 3: Stoicism is kind of another after view this is a 359 00:19:50,404 --> 00:19:54,444 Speaker 3: big difference between men and women and conservatives and liberals. 360 00:19:54,524 --> 00:19:54,724 Speaker 1: Right. 361 00:19:54,804 --> 00:19:57,164 Speaker 3: So now working the story in right, if you look 362 00:19:57,204 --> 00:20:04,604 Speaker 3: at data and if you ask people are you mentally healthy? Right, 363 00:20:05,604 --> 00:20:09,244 Speaker 3: conservatives and men are considered the more likely to say yes, 364 00:20:09,564 --> 00:20:13,964 Speaker 3: Liberals and women Right, If you ask people did you 365 00:20:14,004 --> 00:20:19,364 Speaker 3: have a good day to day, the difference kind of evaporates. 366 00:20:19,884 --> 00:20:23,084 Speaker 3: So the Libs will say, well, that proves that there's 367 00:20:23,124 --> 00:20:26,124 Speaker 3: a stigma over mental health. And I might say there's 368 00:20:26,164 --> 00:20:30,204 Speaker 3: a liberal bit of men. Right, I might say, look, no, actually, 369 00:20:30,524 --> 00:20:33,044 Speaker 3: men are more stoic and they're able to say it's 370 00:20:33,044 --> 00:20:36,884 Speaker 3: okay sometimes to not have every day be the most exciting, 371 00:20:37,004 --> 00:20:39,484 Speaker 3: or I not have everything go your way. Right. We 372 00:20:39,564 --> 00:20:41,684 Speaker 3: don't have to be as expressive about it. And actually 373 00:20:41,684 --> 00:20:45,044 Speaker 3: that's a sign of better mental health. 374 00:20:45,124 --> 00:20:45,204 Speaker 1: Right. 375 00:20:45,244 --> 00:20:47,524 Speaker 2: You don't have to you know, turn us all into 376 00:20:47,564 --> 00:20:49,404 Speaker 2: therapy patients or whatever else. 377 00:20:49,524 --> 00:20:49,684 Speaker 1: Right. 378 00:20:49,804 --> 00:20:52,644 Speaker 2: And if I were to stereotype. 379 00:20:51,964 --> 00:20:56,444 Speaker 3: I would say that Mexico is a more expressive culture 380 00:20:56,484 --> 00:20:58,044 Speaker 3: than Japan or Korea. 381 00:20:58,164 --> 00:20:58,364 Speaker 2: Right. 382 00:20:58,844 --> 00:21:00,724 Speaker 3: If the woke police want to beat me down for that, 383 00:21:00,764 --> 00:21:03,644 Speaker 3: I mean, I think I think most people would agree 384 00:21:03,644 --> 00:21:07,404 Speaker 3: with that, probably, right, And so that can get you know, 385 00:21:07,604 --> 00:21:09,084 Speaker 3: whenever a human is acting of the human on a 386 00:21:09,124 --> 00:21:13,364 Speaker 3: survey are connecting survey, you know that that becomes a 387 00:21:13,404 --> 00:21:15,484 Speaker 3: little bit loaded, potentially. 388 00:21:15,604 --> 00:21:18,684 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And like we said at the beginning, you know, 389 00:21:18,724 --> 00:21:22,204 Speaker 1: they really have tried with this ladder kind of question 390 00:21:22,724 --> 00:21:26,364 Speaker 1: to cut through a lot of the cultural noise, but 391 00:21:26,444 --> 00:21:31,004 Speaker 1: it doesn't in the sense that those mental frameworks that 392 00:21:31,124 --> 00:21:34,524 Speaker 1: kind of those things that are acceptable not acceptable. Just 393 00:21:34,564 --> 00:21:37,284 Speaker 1: the way that you perceive life in general is going 394 00:21:37,364 --> 00:21:42,524 Speaker 1: to be influenced by by those things, and your answer 395 00:21:42,564 --> 00:21:45,604 Speaker 1: to that ladder is going to differ based on those 396 00:21:45,884 --> 00:21:50,004 Speaker 1: early life slash social kind of pressures no matter what. 397 00:21:50,564 --> 00:21:53,324 Speaker 1: And I also want to add a factor that so 398 00:21:53,764 --> 00:21:57,324 Speaker 1: talking about you know, unpc things to say, like another 399 00:21:57,484 --> 00:22:03,684 Speaker 1: big thing in happiness, like genetics is actually a factor here, 400 00:22:03,764 --> 00:22:07,324 Speaker 1: like some levels of life satisfaction and kind of how 401 00:22:07,364 --> 00:22:11,004 Speaker 1: you perceive life. There's a degree of heritability to that, 402 00:22:11,564 --> 00:22:15,324 Speaker 1: right where like for whatever reason, right, whether it's kind 403 00:22:15,324 --> 00:22:18,284 Speaker 1: of your overall mental health, how your brain processes information, 404 00:22:18,604 --> 00:22:22,084 Speaker 1: whatever combination of genes you have that can affect how 405 00:22:22,084 --> 00:22:24,404 Speaker 1: you see the world to a certain extent. Right, it's 406 00:22:24,444 --> 00:22:27,644 Speaker 1: not one hundred percent heritability or anything close to that, 407 00:22:27,924 --> 00:22:31,164 Speaker 1: but there is a heritability element to that. And then 408 00:22:31,284 --> 00:22:34,724 Speaker 1: if we actually go even further out to like nations 409 00:22:34,764 --> 00:22:39,724 Speaker 1: like Finland, places that have been more kind of smaller, 410 00:22:39,844 --> 00:22:43,644 Speaker 1: more homogeneous, like there is that genetic factor actually is 411 00:22:43,724 --> 00:22:47,204 Speaker 1: part of it, I think, and you start realizing that, oh, 412 00:22:47,244 --> 00:22:50,884 Speaker 1: we have like a population that you know, might be 413 00:22:50,924 --> 00:22:55,884 Speaker 1: genetically more predisposed to a certain way of experiencing the world, 414 00:22:55,964 --> 00:22:59,484 Speaker 1: a certain way of expressing themselves in the world. Like 415 00:22:59,524 --> 00:23:02,804 Speaker 1: I said, small piece of it, but a piece of 416 00:23:02,844 --> 00:23:04,924 Speaker 1: it all the same. And when we're talking about something 417 00:23:04,964 --> 00:23:14,364 Speaker 1: as huge as happiness, all those small pieces matter. We'll 418 00:23:14,364 --> 00:23:15,404 Speaker 1: be back right after this. 419 00:23:25,524 --> 00:23:27,484 Speaker 2: One that you do notice in like the Nordics is like. 420 00:23:28,964 --> 00:23:31,084 Speaker 3: There's a lot of reinvestment into like kind of public 421 00:23:31,124 --> 00:23:34,564 Speaker 3: spaces and social services, right like they you know, they 422 00:23:34,604 --> 00:23:37,244 Speaker 3: have time to have a little bit more refinement in 423 00:23:38,244 --> 00:23:45,124 Speaker 3: everything from like museums to parks, to restaurants, airports, right 424 00:23:45,204 --> 00:23:48,564 Speaker 3: things like that. Is that downstream from being having lower 425 00:23:48,604 --> 00:23:51,724 Speaker 3: inequality or is it downstream from being more democratic? I 426 00:23:51,724 --> 00:23:54,564 Speaker 3: think a lot of the research finds that like democracies 427 00:23:54,644 --> 00:23:57,444 Speaker 3: are happier, right. I find that my own work too. 428 00:23:58,084 --> 00:24:00,324 Speaker 3: The US, by the way, as it has become on 429 00:24:00,404 --> 00:24:04,164 Speaker 3: a spectrum less democratic has also become less happy for 430 00:24:04,444 --> 00:24:06,724 Speaker 3: what it's worth, right, absolutely, But then you still of 431 00:24:06,724 --> 00:24:08,164 Speaker 3: know what the cause and effect are, right, Maybe it's 432 00:24:08,204 --> 00:24:11,084 Speaker 3: that Okay, this is kind of a liberal I think 433 00:24:11,124 --> 00:24:13,764 Speaker 3: overly generous in some way interpretation of Trump. 434 00:24:13,764 --> 00:24:20,444 Speaker 2: But they say inequality triggered backlash, and backlash triggered Trump, 435 00:24:20,484 --> 00:24:24,044 Speaker 2: and now Trump is dismantling democratic institutions, right, So like 436 00:24:24,364 --> 00:24:28,924 Speaker 2: the root cause is actually inequality. Right. Those kind of 437 00:24:28,964 --> 00:24:31,684 Speaker 2: things are very difficult to entangle or disentangle. 438 00:24:32,364 --> 00:24:34,844 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, they absolutely are. And by the way, you know, 439 00:24:34,884 --> 00:24:38,284 Speaker 1: since you mentioned the United States and kind of the 440 00:24:38,324 --> 00:24:42,764 Speaker 1: fallen happiness with the lessening democratic norms, I think that 441 00:24:42,964 --> 00:24:45,804 Speaker 1: actually dovetails with two of the other things that we 442 00:24:45,924 --> 00:24:48,804 Speaker 1: see on the list, which is freedom to make life choices, right, 443 00:24:48,884 --> 00:24:52,284 Speaker 1: so that's kind of part of democracy and freedom from corruption. 444 00:24:52,724 --> 00:24:55,404 Speaker 1: And we know that actually the US has just plummeted 445 00:24:55,484 --> 00:24:57,804 Speaker 1: on the corruption index, right, So I do think that's 446 00:24:57,844 --> 00:25:01,084 Speaker 1: really interesting. But yeah, we don't know, especially with things 447 00:25:01,084 --> 00:25:04,484 Speaker 1: like generosity, like cause and effect. Man, that's really really hard, 448 00:25:04,764 --> 00:25:10,444 Speaker 1: but generosity does kind of there is a reciprocal relationship there, 449 00:25:10,644 --> 00:25:13,324 Speaker 1: and I don't know with something like happiness. How one 450 00:25:13,404 --> 00:25:17,484 Speaker 1: even does a statistical analysis to try to disambiguate cause 451 00:25:17,484 --> 00:25:19,164 Speaker 1: and effect, like in a data set like this, I 452 00:25:19,164 --> 00:25:19,924 Speaker 1: don't know if you can. 453 00:25:20,844 --> 00:25:22,004 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, if you read. 454 00:25:23,564 --> 00:25:27,844 Speaker 3: Anecdotal like accounts of people who live, you know, expats 455 00:25:27,844 --> 00:25:32,004 Speaker 3: living in countries like India where maybe the rule of 456 00:25:32,044 --> 00:25:33,964 Speaker 3: law is relatively weak, it's like, well, every. 457 00:25:33,804 --> 00:25:36,004 Speaker 2: Single thing is a negotiation. 458 00:25:36,164 --> 00:25:39,644 Speaker 3: A contract is not necessarily a contract, right, And like, 459 00:25:39,884 --> 00:25:41,684 Speaker 3: you know, if you look at kind of like what 460 00:25:41,724 --> 00:25:43,444 Speaker 3: are the different pillars of like the Industrial Revolution in 461 00:25:43,444 --> 00:25:45,924 Speaker 3: the European Enlightenment, one of the ones, it's like kind 462 00:25:45,924 --> 00:25:49,884 Speaker 3: of less sexy, is like just contract law and like 463 00:25:49,964 --> 00:25:53,644 Speaker 3: property rights and things like that, right, I mean, think 464 00:25:53,684 --> 00:25:58,164 Speaker 3: about how many things you do, Maria that rely on 465 00:25:58,364 --> 00:26:01,524 Speaker 3: high trust, you know what I mean? 466 00:26:01,644 --> 00:26:02,044 Speaker 2: Yeah? 467 00:26:02,084 --> 00:26:05,004 Speaker 3: Absolutely, By the way it happens in the poker world too, 468 00:26:05,084 --> 00:26:08,804 Speaker 3: Oh you know, I forgot my wire? 469 00:26:08,884 --> 00:26:11,044 Speaker 2: Can you lend X to play in this tournament? Yep, 470 00:26:12,364 --> 00:26:15,084 Speaker 2: I'm entering this high stakes betting pool. 471 00:26:15,084 --> 00:26:16,484 Speaker 3: I mean, there's just lots of stuff that like, and 472 00:26:16,524 --> 00:26:18,444 Speaker 3: I'm much more comfort care about that than ninety percent 473 00:26:18,484 --> 00:26:21,044 Speaker 3: of poker players. But like, just the things are a 474 00:26:21,084 --> 00:26:24,724 Speaker 3: lot smoother if not, everything is like fucking scratching your 475 00:26:24,764 --> 00:26:27,684 Speaker 3: nails on a chalkboard, trying to prove, trying to ensure 476 00:26:27,764 --> 00:26:29,324 Speaker 3: that what's supposed to happen happens. 477 00:26:29,844 --> 00:26:33,524 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's like the underlying point there, 478 00:26:34,124 --> 00:26:37,084 Speaker 1: which is a really important one, is that we don't 479 00:26:37,084 --> 00:26:40,364 Speaker 1: want to constantly be expending all of these resources on 480 00:26:41,084 --> 00:26:43,564 Speaker 1: whatever it is, whether it's pure survival, right that's like 481 00:26:43,604 --> 00:26:47,084 Speaker 1: the money thing, or just like trying to go through 482 00:26:47,124 --> 00:26:49,564 Speaker 1: life on a day to day basis. And we do 483 00:26:49,644 --> 00:26:52,804 Speaker 1: have data that show that societies with higher levels of 484 00:26:52,844 --> 00:26:57,044 Speaker 1: generalized trust tend to be much more successful, right, they 485 00:26:57,164 --> 00:26:59,564 Speaker 1: tend to I'm not talking about happiness right now. I'm 486 00:26:59,564 --> 00:27:04,204 Speaker 1: talking about just like economically successful, because the fewer resources 487 00:27:04,244 --> 00:27:06,204 Speaker 1: you have to expend on that, the more you can 488 00:27:06,644 --> 00:27:09,404 Speaker 1: actually use to pay attention to things that are important 489 00:27:09,604 --> 00:27:11,684 Speaker 1: to you in that matter to you, you know, your 490 00:27:11,684 --> 00:27:14,684 Speaker 1: own well being, your family, your friends, things that you 491 00:27:14,764 --> 00:27:18,484 Speaker 1: want to be doing. And if everything is a struggle, right, 492 00:27:18,564 --> 00:27:22,684 Speaker 1: then it's really really tough to get out from that 493 00:27:22,804 --> 00:27:26,804 Speaker 1: cognitive load and to try to have the mental space 494 00:27:26,884 --> 00:27:32,844 Speaker 1: that you need to think, to relax, to create, to 495 00:27:32,964 --> 00:27:36,404 Speaker 1: actually be you know, be a successful human being and 496 00:27:36,444 --> 00:27:38,884 Speaker 1: not just a human being who's surviving. By the way, 497 00:27:38,924 --> 00:27:41,524 Speaker 1: if you think about your answers to different questions right 498 00:27:41,604 --> 00:27:43,884 Speaker 1: such as like the more global how happy are you? 499 00:27:44,044 --> 00:27:46,964 Speaker 1: Versus like, how's your day going right? How are things 500 00:27:47,004 --> 00:27:51,124 Speaker 1: going right now, you will end up getting very different 501 00:27:51,164 --> 00:27:54,724 Speaker 1: answers quite often because people, and this actually goes back 502 00:27:54,724 --> 00:27:58,204 Speaker 1: to what I was saying about genetics and about different societies, 503 00:27:58,484 --> 00:28:03,124 Speaker 1: people do often have like a set happiness level, you know, 504 00:28:03,284 --> 00:28:07,484 Speaker 1: after a certain point, and the data that shows that, 505 00:28:07,924 --> 00:28:10,644 Speaker 1: you know, people after they win the law tend to 506 00:28:10,964 --> 00:28:13,884 Speaker 1: like fall back to where they were before, or people 507 00:28:13,884 --> 00:28:17,244 Speaker 1: who become quadriplegic also tend to kind of level out 508 00:28:17,284 --> 00:28:19,764 Speaker 1: to where they were before. I think that and those 509 00:28:20,324 --> 00:28:23,604 Speaker 1: studies have held up, and those are very interesting data 510 00:28:23,644 --> 00:28:25,964 Speaker 1: points that show that you have this day to day 511 00:28:26,004 --> 00:28:30,164 Speaker 1: fluctuation and then you have these baseline set rates. And 512 00:28:30,244 --> 00:28:32,324 Speaker 1: yet even with all of those things, you do have 513 00:28:32,364 --> 00:28:37,044 Speaker 1: societies that tend to be overall happier versus other societies. 514 00:28:37,084 --> 00:28:40,644 Speaker 1: So they're all of these different factors playing at the 515 00:28:40,644 --> 00:28:44,004 Speaker 1: same time. And that's I think one of the reasons 516 00:28:44,044 --> 00:28:47,404 Speaker 1: why happiness research is so fascinating and why I try 517 00:28:47,444 --> 00:28:51,364 Speaker 1: to be one of those people who tries to be happier, right, 518 00:28:51,404 --> 00:28:53,724 Speaker 1: and tries to use the research that I know about 519 00:28:54,724 --> 00:28:59,404 Speaker 1: those mental frameworks, those mental feedback loops to push myself 520 00:28:59,444 --> 00:29:01,924 Speaker 1: to be happier because there is, you know, mind body connection. 521 00:29:02,004 --> 00:29:04,604 Speaker 1: There's a research that shows that if you smile more, 522 00:29:04,644 --> 00:29:07,484 Speaker 1: you're actually going to start feeling a little bit better. 523 00:29:07,764 --> 00:29:10,004 Speaker 1: Like if you can trick yourself, if you can trick 524 00:29:10,044 --> 00:29:12,724 Speaker 1: your mind by kind of acting in a happier way. 525 00:29:13,084 --> 00:29:16,324 Speaker 2: Yeah, poker rewires your brain, or I guess for the 526 00:29:16,364 --> 00:29:18,644 Speaker 2: matter of other gambling kind of rewires your brain in 527 00:29:18,684 --> 00:29:22,084 Speaker 2: slightly weird ways. Who was this interview with? 528 00:29:22,324 --> 00:29:26,764 Speaker 3: Was it Stephen Schipwicker's I forget who it was, right, 529 00:29:27,044 --> 00:29:28,684 Speaker 3: it was some player who was asked why he didn't 530 00:29:28,684 --> 00:29:32,724 Speaker 3: appear happier when he's doing really well in a tournament, right, 531 00:29:32,764 --> 00:29:35,044 Speaker 3: And it's like, well, anyone who's been in a tournament 532 00:29:35,084 --> 00:29:38,444 Speaker 3: knows that until you actually finish the tournament, there's absolutely 533 00:29:38,524 --> 00:29:42,044 Speaker 3: nothing guaranteed about it, Right, So you kind of train 534 00:29:42,124 --> 00:29:46,244 Speaker 3: yourself like not to celebrate these like interrow successes and 535 00:29:46,364 --> 00:29:50,084 Speaker 3: like and you pick, yeah, go ahead. 536 00:29:50,524 --> 00:29:52,564 Speaker 1: I have to say that I don't know about you, 537 00:29:52,604 --> 00:29:56,164 Speaker 1: But I always like feel a perverse pleasure in watching 538 00:29:56,204 --> 00:29:59,444 Speaker 1: those videos when someone celebrates too early, like when there's 539 00:29:59,444 --> 00:30:01,324 Speaker 1: still one card to come and they're like doing this 540 00:30:01,524 --> 00:30:04,604 Speaker 1: victory dance like yes I won and going absolutely crazy, 541 00:30:04,644 --> 00:30:07,324 Speaker 1: and then they lose. I'm like, huh, serves you right, Like, 542 00:30:07,484 --> 00:30:10,124 Speaker 1: do not celebrate too early. And one of the other 543 00:30:10,204 --> 00:30:12,564 Speaker 1: things we were talking about is in terms of trust, 544 00:30:12,884 --> 00:30:15,804 Speaker 1: Like I do think that that is something that is 545 00:30:16,004 --> 00:30:18,524 Speaker 1: very and we've talked about this before. It's something that's 546 00:30:18,604 --> 00:30:21,484 Speaker 1: so funny in the poker world, right where you can, 547 00:30:21,844 --> 00:30:25,164 Speaker 1: like you take things on trust and end up trusting 548 00:30:25,204 --> 00:30:29,844 Speaker 1: people with vast amounts of money, where other people, people 549 00:30:29,844 --> 00:30:31,644 Speaker 1: who aren't poker players, would be like, what in the 550 00:30:31,644 --> 00:30:34,444 Speaker 1: world are you doing? Right, you just gave that person 551 00:30:34,684 --> 00:30:37,084 Speaker 1: like ten grand or whatever it is, and you and 552 00:30:37,124 --> 00:30:40,204 Speaker 1: I have actually given each other money that way. But 553 00:30:40,364 --> 00:30:43,004 Speaker 1: I'm very careful, like I will only actually do that 554 00:30:43,124 --> 00:30:47,044 Speaker 1: with few people because I'm not a poker player, and 555 00:30:47,084 --> 00:30:48,764 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I'm someone who has 556 00:30:48,804 --> 00:30:52,524 Speaker 1: studied con artists, breaches of trust, all of these things, 557 00:30:52,964 --> 00:30:57,604 Speaker 1: and I know that, you know, you just never want 558 00:30:57,684 --> 00:31:03,164 Speaker 1: to put yourself in a situation where you'll be out 559 00:31:03,204 --> 00:31:05,684 Speaker 1: that money absolutely. 560 00:31:05,804 --> 00:31:10,164 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, I like I I unless you're covered with gone, right, 561 00:31:10,284 --> 00:31:11,564 Speaker 2: let's get yeah exactly. 562 00:31:11,644 --> 00:31:14,444 Speaker 1: Well that's the other thing, Yeah, unless you're absolutely comfortable 563 00:31:14,524 --> 00:31:17,164 Speaker 1: with it being totally gone. And there's some very funny 564 00:31:17,204 --> 00:31:20,644 Speaker 1: stories about that. In the poker world. Phil Ivy is 565 00:31:20,804 --> 00:31:24,324 Speaker 1: known for giving very very generous tips. There's a funny 566 00:31:24,324 --> 00:31:28,444 Speaker 1: massage story where someone didn't have cash and asked Phil 567 00:31:28,484 --> 00:31:32,004 Speaker 1: Ivy to tip for him and I think Phil through 568 00:31:32,044 --> 00:31:34,804 Speaker 1: like a five K tip or something to the missus. 569 00:31:35,684 --> 00:31:39,324 Speaker 1: And yeah, that was with Nick Schulman. It's a very 570 00:31:39,324 --> 00:31:43,804 Speaker 1: funny story that Nick Schulman tells, And yeah, that was. 571 00:31:45,164 --> 00:31:47,684 Speaker 1: That's not a death that you wanted to incur in 572 00:31:47,684 --> 00:31:50,244 Speaker 1: the moment. I think Nick was probably waiting for like 573 00:31:50,244 --> 00:31:53,204 Speaker 1: one hundred dollars tip or something something a little bit smaller. 574 00:31:58,044 --> 00:32:01,564 Speaker 3: And we'll be right back after this break. 575 00:32:08,644 --> 00:32:11,564 Speaker 1: One of the things that we haven't talked about too much, 576 00:32:12,124 --> 00:32:15,804 Speaker 1: which I think we should at least a little bit, 577 00:32:15,964 --> 00:32:20,364 Speaker 1: is the fact that the one factor that's been shown 578 00:32:20,564 --> 00:32:25,164 Speaker 1: over and over to correlate with both life expectancy and happiness, 579 00:32:25,204 --> 00:32:28,564 Speaker 1: and it's something that this Happiness Court has pointed out. 580 00:32:28,924 --> 00:32:31,204 Speaker 1: They say having someone to count on. But the one 581 00:32:31,284 --> 00:32:34,764 Speaker 1: factor that we see in all sorts of longitudinal studies 582 00:32:35,084 --> 00:32:39,524 Speaker 1: are just community, right, social connection, having friends, being being 583 00:32:39,564 --> 00:32:42,604 Speaker 1: a part of something. And that doesn't need to mean religion, 584 00:32:42,724 --> 00:32:45,284 Speaker 1: although that's one of the reasons that's a confounding variable 585 00:32:45,284 --> 00:32:48,084 Speaker 1: why people who are religious often tend to be happier 586 00:32:48,124 --> 00:32:51,204 Speaker 1: because they have that inbuilt community. But it doesn't have 587 00:32:51,284 --> 00:32:54,244 Speaker 1: to be that. It could actually be absolutely anything. It 588 00:32:54,244 --> 00:32:56,484 Speaker 1: could be poker night, it could be you know, your 589 00:32:56,524 --> 00:33:00,124 Speaker 1: community of poker friends. But it's having people that you 590 00:33:00,404 --> 00:33:05,644 Speaker 1: actually see in real life, that you have a rapport with, 591 00:33:06,164 --> 00:33:08,604 Speaker 1: that you spend time with, that you have kind of 592 00:33:08,644 --> 00:33:12,644 Speaker 1: this support network. And yes, kind of having a spouse 593 00:33:12,724 --> 00:33:15,284 Speaker 1: can be great too, although that is a double edged 594 00:33:15,284 --> 00:33:18,004 Speaker 1: sword because if you're unhappy in your marriage, that detracts 595 00:33:18,004 --> 00:33:23,164 Speaker 1: from happiness. But in general, like that, social connection is 596 00:33:23,244 --> 00:33:26,924 Speaker 1: absolutely huge, and that's something that we also haven't talked 597 00:33:26,924 --> 00:33:31,324 Speaker 1: about in terms of you know, different countries and different 598 00:33:31,964 --> 00:33:35,044 Speaker 1: ways of treating family. Right, does your extended family live 599 00:33:35,124 --> 00:33:36,644 Speaker 1: with you? How do you kind of look at that? 600 00:33:36,724 --> 00:33:40,164 Speaker 1: Do you have an inbuilt social connection and inbuilt community? 601 00:33:40,484 --> 00:33:42,564 Speaker 1: And this is something that I think a lot of 602 00:33:42,604 --> 00:33:45,964 Speaker 1: people either take for granted or don't even realize how 603 00:33:46,004 --> 00:33:48,204 Speaker 1: important it is. And I think it's something that will 604 00:33:48,204 --> 00:33:51,404 Speaker 1: become increasingly more important as more and more of our 605 00:33:51,404 --> 00:33:55,044 Speaker 1: lives are online, and we do see this social fragmentation 606 00:33:55,644 --> 00:33:59,244 Speaker 1: with people not necessarily doing as many things outside the 607 00:33:59,284 --> 00:34:01,524 Speaker 1: home with other people as I have in the past. 608 00:34:01,684 --> 00:34:04,884 Speaker 3: Yeah, the Nordics, I tend to associate with bigger, open, 609 00:34:04,964 --> 00:34:07,244 Speaker 3: kind of outdoor spaces. It seem like the Fins of particular, 610 00:34:07,364 --> 00:34:10,764 Speaker 3: you have like a tragnumber of big groups swroaming around. 611 00:34:10,764 --> 00:34:14,804 Speaker 3: Whereas like something very interesting I found in South Korea, 612 00:34:14,924 --> 00:34:17,684 Speaker 3: or in Seoul at least, was that like when you 613 00:34:17,724 --> 00:34:22,404 Speaker 3: go to a restaurant that'sufficiently nice, they will put your 614 00:34:22,444 --> 00:34:25,164 Speaker 3: group in like a private room, and that is seen 615 00:34:25,284 --> 00:34:28,284 Speaker 3: as like the highest prestige thing. As you go with 616 00:34:28,924 --> 00:34:30,804 Speaker 3: a group of four friends, right, and you go to 617 00:34:30,844 --> 00:34:33,004 Speaker 3: a private room or with your family, right, and it's 618 00:34:33,044 --> 00:34:36,604 Speaker 3: kind of like, okay, well, what's the point of you know, 619 00:34:36,684 --> 00:34:37,924 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess like the point of going on 620 00:34:38,084 --> 00:34:41,324 Speaker 3: is that they can cook, of course very well better 621 00:34:41,364 --> 00:34:43,564 Speaker 3: than you can, right, But like the other point of 622 00:34:43,604 --> 00:34:45,684 Speaker 3: being no, we're out in the community and we're out 623 00:34:45,684 --> 00:34:51,444 Speaker 3: in a communal space, right, is like, so, yeah. 624 00:34:50,524 --> 00:34:51,324 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. 625 00:34:51,364 --> 00:34:54,284 Speaker 2: I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, well. 626 00:34:54,124 --> 00:34:56,164 Speaker 1: That goes hand in hand with where we know they 627 00:34:56,204 --> 00:34:58,244 Speaker 1: fall on the global happiness rank. 628 00:34:58,284 --> 00:35:02,004 Speaker 3: Now, yeah, I drop in those walls have some community. 629 00:35:02,244 --> 00:35:04,364 Speaker 2: Yeah. 630 00:35:04,404 --> 00:35:08,804 Speaker 1: Don't we love when anecdotal data actually supports the statistics. 631 00:35:09,444 --> 00:35:11,524 Speaker 2: It's like, I don't think it's like the common because 632 00:35:11,604 --> 00:35:12,244 Speaker 2: it seems as a. 633 00:35:14,444 --> 00:35:19,084 Speaker 3: Places that are seen as like having a constraint on space, right, 634 00:35:19,524 --> 00:35:24,004 Speaker 3: that having space is kind of like the luxury right 635 00:35:24,004 --> 00:35:26,164 Speaker 3: if you lol, like like the luxury class and like 636 00:35:27,044 --> 00:35:30,084 Speaker 3: Korean air. Right, it's not that nice, just a lot 637 00:35:30,124 --> 00:35:33,644 Speaker 3: of space because space is rare in these extremely dense 638 00:35:33,964 --> 00:35:36,324 Speaker 3: like Asian countries, right, And it might not be true 639 00:35:36,364 --> 00:35:39,124 Speaker 3: so much in in in other parts of the world. 640 00:35:39,844 --> 00:35:42,604 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, that makes that makes a lot of sense. 641 00:35:42,764 --> 00:35:45,764 Speaker 1: All right, So let's to wrap up night. If you 642 00:35:45,884 --> 00:35:50,164 Speaker 1: were to nominate your own new happiest country based on 643 00:35:50,284 --> 00:35:53,884 Speaker 1: no data whatsoever, what would what would you say? Or 644 00:35:53,924 --> 00:35:55,564 Speaker 1: do you want to keep Finland? 645 00:35:56,684 --> 00:36:01,204 Speaker 2: People in Hudson, New York seem very happy? 646 00:36:01,204 --> 00:36:05,884 Speaker 1: It's all it's the country, the country of Hudson. 647 00:36:06,284 --> 00:36:12,844 Speaker 3: It could be a communist country practically, yeahs though, all right, cools, Yeah, 648 00:36:12,884 --> 00:36:14,524 Speaker 3: what's the place you've seen that you'd say this place 649 00:36:14,604 --> 00:36:17,644 Speaker 3: is happy? 650 00:36:16,964 --> 00:36:20,204 Speaker 1: I would nominate, Well, I'm going to do a country. 651 00:36:20,324 --> 00:36:26,684 Speaker 1: I'm going to nominate Andra, because people there have a 652 00:36:26,684 --> 00:36:29,884 Speaker 1: lot of money and it's gorgeous, right, you just have 653 00:36:30,044 --> 00:36:34,444 Speaker 1: like just absolutely stunning vistas and they're and it's small, right, 654 00:36:34,524 --> 00:36:36,684 Speaker 1: and there aren't that many people there, and it's a 655 00:36:36,724 --> 00:36:39,884 Speaker 1: tax haven. So yeah, I would I would say that. 656 00:36:40,084 --> 00:36:42,604 Speaker 1: I'm guessing. I don't actually know if Fandora. I'm not 657 00:36:42,644 --> 00:36:45,124 Speaker 1: looking at the rankings anymore. They're not in front of me, 658 00:36:45,204 --> 00:36:46,764 Speaker 1: so I don't know if Fandora is even part of 659 00:36:46,804 --> 00:36:51,604 Speaker 1: this or if it's too small. But yeah, Andra, Monaco, like, 660 00:36:52,084 --> 00:36:55,084 Speaker 1: I would bet that people in countries like that are 661 00:36:55,124 --> 00:36:56,444 Speaker 1: probably pretty. 662 00:36:56,524 --> 00:37:01,164 Speaker 3: They're a little apologies, who are five readers from listeners 663 00:37:01,204 --> 00:37:02,364 Speaker 3: from Monaco are people? 664 00:37:02,364 --> 00:37:04,964 Speaker 2: They're a little soulless in the tax savings. 665 00:37:05,084 --> 00:37:09,204 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's why I said Andorra, not Monaco. But 666 00:37:09,204 --> 00:37:12,004 Speaker 1: but I think that Monaco shares some of the things 667 00:37:12,004 --> 00:37:14,924 Speaker 1: with Andorra. But Andorra, I'm guessing is a happier place 668 00:37:15,364 --> 00:37:18,804 Speaker 1: because in general, like there are a lot of parts 669 00:37:18,844 --> 00:37:21,004 Speaker 1: so and or is its own country. But you know, 670 00:37:21,124 --> 00:37:26,444 Speaker 1: we're we're talking about close proximity to Spain and the 671 00:37:26,844 --> 00:37:31,164 Speaker 1: you know, the weather there is nice and there are 672 00:37:31,484 --> 00:37:34,004 Speaker 1: by the way, even though we do know that like 673 00:37:35,124 --> 00:37:38,404 Speaker 1: Nordic countries can be obviously the happiest in the world, 674 00:37:38,724 --> 00:37:44,844 Speaker 1: but sunshine and sun exposure is correlated to happiness levels anyway, 675 00:37:45,244 --> 00:37:49,364 Speaker 1: and Spain can be Spain can be a happier country 676 00:37:49,924 --> 00:37:53,284 Speaker 1: if you go like region by region. But there are 677 00:37:53,284 --> 00:37:55,804 Speaker 1: some very poor parts of Spain. There's a lot of 678 00:37:55,844 --> 00:37:58,244 Speaker 1: civil unrest in some parts of it. You know, you've 679 00:37:58,284 --> 00:38:01,764 Speaker 1: got boss country and like the succession stuff, so there's 680 00:38:01,764 --> 00:38:03,604 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff keeping Spain from the top. But 681 00:38:03,724 --> 00:38:06,724 Speaker 1: Andorra has a lot of the good things that Spain 682 00:38:06,804 --> 00:38:09,884 Speaker 1: has without a lot of that baggage. So that's that's 683 00:38:09,884 --> 00:38:12,804 Speaker 1: why I nominate and Dora. I wonder if our and 684 00:38:12,844 --> 00:38:16,844 Speaker 1: Dora listeners agree with us or not, but it is beautiful. 685 00:38:17,284 --> 00:38:22,924 Speaker 1: I encourage you to at least look at photographs. And 686 00:38:23,044 --> 00:38:26,164 Speaker 1: on that note, date, let's uh yeah, let's wrap and 687 00:38:26,564 --> 00:38:30,924 Speaker 1: uh go and be happy and and let's go and 688 00:38:30,964 --> 00:38:35,484 Speaker 1: increase the happiness rating of risky business by encouraging more 689 00:38:35,604 --> 00:38:44,764 Speaker 1: reviews that are positive. Let us know what you think 690 00:38:44,804 --> 00:38:47,364 Speaker 1: of the show. Reach out to us at Risky Business 691 00:38:47,404 --> 00:38:51,084 Speaker 1: at pushkin dot FM. Risky Business is hosted by me 692 00:38:51,204 --> 00:38:52,724 Speaker 1: Maria Kanakova. 693 00:38:52,444 --> 00:38:55,204 Speaker 3: And by me Nate Silver. The show was a cool 694 00:38:55,204 --> 00:38:59,164 Speaker 3: production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced 695 00:38:59,204 --> 00:39:03,524 Speaker 3: by Isaac Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya gerwit Lydia, 696 00:39:03,644 --> 00:39:06,524 Speaker 3: Jean Kott and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our 697 00:39:06,564 --> 00:39:10,404 Speaker 3: executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruger. 698 00:39:10,924 --> 00:39:13,164 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate and review us 699 00:39:13,204 --> 00:39:15,844 Speaker 1: so other people can find us too, but once again, 700 00:39:16,004 --> 00:39:17,564 Speaker 1: only if you like us. We don't want put those 701 00:39:17,604 --> 00:39:20,004 Speaker 1: bad reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in.