WEBVTT - Steve Rolles on Legalizing Drugs 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.600 of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.040 show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 views expressed here do not represent those of my Heart Media, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:23.480 Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed as 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.400 an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.720 even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.680 should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:45.680 any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. So today's a 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.720 big day for me because this will be the concluding 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:55.440 episode of season two of Psychoactive, which means we've put 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:59.040 out eighty episodes since the summer of plus a whole 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.040 bunch of bonus episodes, And so I thought this would 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:06.000 be a good time to really take the opportunity because 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.919 I'm not sure if and when Psychoactive will be returning 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:12.720 and in what form to thank a number of people. 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.720 Let me start with Darren Aronovski and maybe of you 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:19.399 know him as the famous movie director. Um. He and 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:21.720 I met about twenty years ago. We were introduced by 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.039 phone named Gonga White who took each of us not 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:29.000 together separately on our first Ayahuaski experience. But Darren emailed 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:32.560 me back in June and suggested the idea of my 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:37.280 hosting of podcast on psychedelics, actually he thought, and my 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.840 response to him was, I'd actually rather do one on 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:44.600 all drugs, and he said, let's do it. So first, Darren, 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.600 thank you ever so much for initiating this project and 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:49.560 for having the confidence in the faith in need to 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.160 make this happen. And then next let me thank the 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:56.880 producers who have put in the most time and effort recently. 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:00.480 That has been no him Osband at Protozoa and Josh 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.440 Stain at My Heart, and then their predecessors who got 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.640 this going Catcha kum Coova at Protozoa and Benjamin kubrick 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:10.440 Um also at Protozoa. I mean, at the top of 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:14.080 the list, Dylan Golden, my key collaborator over there, but 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:18.400 also Ari Handel and Elizabeth Geeseus and a Vivit Barrio 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.520 sph and Eric Watson, and over at my Heart there's 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:26.040 Alex Williams and Matthew Frederick and of course the head 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:30.080 of the whole enterprise, the Bob Pittman, and of course 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:34.160 Robert Beatty, who came up with a wonderful logo for Psychoactive. 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.120 So thanks to all of you. It's been wonderful working 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:39.959 with this team. And I apologize to those whose names 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:42.160 I've forgotten who are working more behind the scenes on 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.000 all of this. But what I can tell you is 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.680 the levels of professionalism and time and commitment and good 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.720 times with the folks at Protozoa and I heart the 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.520 co producers of Psychoactive has just made this whole experience 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:59.600 a real pleasure. Next, I want to thank you the listeners. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.320 Of course I don't know exactly who all of you are. 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:05.760 Some of you do tell me, but I can tell 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.480 you this about the data that we collect. Most of 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.720 the listeners maybe have been in the United States, but 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.760 there have been listeners in over a hundred seventy countries 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.720 and territories around the world, so the audience truly is global, 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.200 and I want to thank especially those of you who 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:26.600 are listening in countries with fairly oppressive governments, where these 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:30.520 sorts of conversations that we have on Psychoactive would not 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:34.400 be so well tolerated in your own countries. I hope 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:38.640 these conversations have been a source of inspiration and enlightenment 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:41.520 for all of you. Now, as I said, I'm not 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:45.000 sure what the next incarnation of Psychoactive will be or 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.120 when I am going to take a break for a 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.400 while at least, but I would welcome your feedback. So 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.160 contact me through Instagram or other social media, or email 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:59.160 me directly at Ethan at Napleman dot net. That's Ethan 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.920 at Napleman dot net. I can't promise to get back 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.520 to you, but I always enjoy getting the feedback, not 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:06.680 just the positive, you know, but also the negative and 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.440 critical ideas for the future. Please keep posting your comments, 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:13.640 whether it's on iHeart or Google or Apple or wherever 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:17.000 you listen to podcasts. The episodes will remain up for 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:21.280 the foreseeable future on all of the platforms, so please 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.799 keep listening. And so with this let me launch into 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:31.320 episode number eighty. And for number this one, I decided 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.320 to ask somebody who has been a long time ally 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.159 and friend of mine. His name is Steve Roles. He's 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:43.080 based in the u K's British. He has been the 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:48.280 senior policy analyst at the British Drug post Reform Organization 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:53.039 TRANSFORM almost since its inception, since that organization was founded 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.800 by Danny Kushlick in the mid nine so he's been 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.240 there for twenty five years. He's widely regarded, but not 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.680 US as an expert in the UK, but perhaps as 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.560 the single most knowledgeable person when it comes to thinking 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:12.440 about the legal regulation of drugs. I mean that means 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:19.400 that he's been a consultant to governments from Canada, Germany, Luxembourg, Jamaica, Malta, Mexico, 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.880 uh Uruguay, really almost every place except the US when 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:26.599 it comes to legalizing cannabis. It means he's been a 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.920 recent advisor to the Petro government in Colombia on their 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:33.320 proposals for legalizing coca cocaine. He's been dealing with the 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.320 Dutch on the issues of legally regulating M d M A. 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:41.240 Uh So, Steve, thank you ever so much for joining 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:45.479 me on the last episode of season two of Psychoactives. 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:49.440 That's my pleasure, Ethan, It's great to be him. Well. So, 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.200 we have so much to talk about, from models of 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:56.800 legalization to the actual realities of legalization. But let me 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:00.880 just begin um by by asking you. I mean, you know, 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:03.800 I think some of our listeners will know. I've been 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.719 involved in this issue since the late nineteen eighties. Now, Steve, 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.400 you've jumped into this about a decade later, in the 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.720 mid to late nineteen nineties. But when you look at 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.920 this evolution in the twenty years you've been involved in this, 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:21.000 what most jumps out at you, Well, I mean, I guess, 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:25.799 like like you, Ethan, it's been a remarkable, fascinating journey 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:30.160 because what what started, as you know, discussions amongst reform 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:35.480 advocates like us, has moved from the sort of theoretical 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:39.040 space into the real world, and things which were seen 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:44.479 as outrageous, sort of extreme heretical views, um when when 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:49.440 we started are now very much mainstream political views and 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:54.039 supported by a majority of the public um. And you know, 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.799 they are happening on the ground on every continent on Earth. 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.960 So things which were impossible, not not even twenty five 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:01.960 years ago, even ten years ago. You know, if you 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.440 think about it, Colorado and Washington and Uruguay, that that 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:07.960 all happened in two thousand and twelve, So that was 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:13.560 only just really ten years ago. Um. And before that 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.160 it was just still all theoretical. It was things that 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:19.440 we were hoping for, I mean, there were some things 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:21.520 happening with medical cannabis and so on, but when you 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:27.560 get into the non medical recreational drug legalization regulation, it's 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:32.520 really very much you know, modern history. UM. And So 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.640 for a long time, we were you know, making the case, 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:39.320 we were writing our reports, we were developing proposals, UM, 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.800 we were advocating, we were trying to change the framing 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.520 of the debate and try and influence key political discourses 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.440 in the media and in in in in professional forums 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.840 and in political forums. And sometimes it didn't feel like 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.880 we were getting anywhere, um, But clearly we were, because 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.880 at some point a threshold was passed and reform became 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.640 not just a possibility but a reality. And since those 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:07.120 since two thousand and twelve, there's been a kind of um, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.840 cascading domino effect. Uh. And and you know, from from 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:14.800 two states in the US to now twenty one from 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:19.800 from just Uruguay, we're seeing cannabis reforms for nomenical cannabis 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:24.720 on on every continent now except maybe the Arctic. And 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.440 and and we're seeing, as you've already said, we've seen 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:30.560 the debate move beyond cannabis into psychedelics and and cocaine 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:33.200 and coca and m D m A and other stimulates 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.720 and other drugs, and so the things that we you know, 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.120 the things that we have been advocating all of this time, 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.640 are becoming a reality. And that is both interesting and 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.800 fascinating and historical view, but also you know, satisfying from 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.559 professional view to sort of things that we were convinced 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:50.280 that we were right, but everyone was telling us we 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.760 were mad. It turns out that actually we were right 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:55.800 because we've been vindicated by history, and you know, the 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.320 evidence is coming in and showing showing that we were 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:01.400 what we were saying was essentially right, and you know, 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:03.760 here we are. We're still a long way to go, 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:09.440 but I feel, yeah, satisfied that that we have you know, 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:13.000 we haven't. We weren't just some cranky kind of tinfoil 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.880 hat nutters and heretics and that you know, history, we 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:20.480 are on the right side of history. M hm no, 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.400 I mean, Steve, I'll tell you. Part of what kept 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:26.000 me going all those decades of being involved in the advocacy, 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:27.920 and you know, when people would think this was just 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.440 a quixonic enterprise, was the sense that we were right 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.760 in policy terms, We were right from a justice perspective, 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:38.760 we were right from a perspectives of individual and broader morality, 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.360 and that it just seemed inevitable that somehow this but 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.600 that on some level, this bubble of a kind of 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:48.959 um prohibition, this policy, the notion that you could somehow 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:55.040 control global illicit commodities markets through policies of repression repression 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.720 was somehow gonna work. But I want to ask you this. 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:02.200 You know, I've oftentimes made the point that if you 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:06.600 ask the question, how and why was it that the 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.400 United States, which for almost a century, really from the 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:15.120 early twentieth century until basically the second term of the 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:19.200 Obama administration, really was the global champion of the war 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:23.840 on drugs, right exporting and modeling and coercing other governments 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.920 to adopt, you know, fairly punitive prohibitionist policies. How was 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:31.920 it that we nonetheless became the leader when it came 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:36.040 to the legal regulation of cannabis. And I've answered that 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.720 question the US context by saying it really goes back 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.000 to medical marijuana, goes back to that first medical marijuana 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:46.200 ballot initiative victory in California six It was the one 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:50.079 that afforded the first opportunity to bring marijuana markets above 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.760 ground with the medical marijuana dispensaries. It was the one 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.760 that gave people an opportunity to feel like what regulating 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.040 marijuana would be like? Right, and it helped, you know, 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.840 in every set, transformed that dialogue in a way that 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.520 opened up the door, shifted public opinion, shifted government thinking 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:09.520 to imagining a world in which the legalization of marijuana 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.719 not just for medicinal purposes, but more broadly for all 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:16.319 at us was possible. But the question is for you 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.520 in the UK, and looking at this globally, to what 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:24.120 extent was that the model elsewhere? First? Secondly, to what 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:26.839 extent was what happened in the US kind of the 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:30.400 inspiration or the instigation without which reform would not have 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.480 happened elsewhere, Because we always look at the Dutch coffee 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:35.600 shop system is being you know, one of the actually 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.400 pre models to the US medical marijuana model. And to 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.880 what extent has this happened in some countries actually totally 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:46.040 independently of medical marijuana being the stepping still, I mean, 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:52.520 that's a great question. Um Uh, there's certainly. Um I 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.400 think the fact that the US, for the reasons you've 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.640 you've you've you've touched on the fact that the US 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.160 did go first, snificantly went first. I mean, I don't 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.880 want to you know, erased Uruguay from history here, because 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.360 Uruguay was the first member state and kind of happened 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.800 around the same time as Colorado and Washington. But well 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.440 sort of right because in a way, Uruguay legalizes as 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.080 the end of twenty thirteen, so a year after all 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:21.240 after Colorado Washington. In fact, I've sometimes wondered whether or 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.559 not Uruguay would have happened in Colorado and Washington, and 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:27.679 that kind of for sure. But the process was unfolding 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:29.760 from about two thousand and eleven, and there were bills 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.040 being tabled, and it was a very active public debate. 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.840 There were expert consultations going on in two thousand, two 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.199 thousand and twelve that TRANSFORM and myself and others UM 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:41.920 were involved in. But I think the thing that was 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.200 very significant in terms of the US for the global 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.240 debate was really what you say, I mean, the fact 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.720 that the US had been the kind of drug war 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.280 sort of bully of the world for for all these decades, 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.480 going all the way back to you know, um the 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.880 drafting of the the you know U Single Convention in 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.079 the forties and fifties and Harry Ainsling and all that, 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:08.719 all that ghastly history. Um. The fact that they then 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:14.000 did become these world leaders in the cannabis legalization regulation, 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.880 it did create space for the debate to blossom elsewhere 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.040 in the world. Just because of the US is hackmonic 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:27.880 role in geopolitics generally and in drug policy specifically. Um, 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.640 they kind of lost their authority to bully other countries 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:35.880 on cannabis regulation when US states started legalizing. And you know, 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.080 when when the US does stuff, it becomes okay to 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.360 talk about it in other places in the world. And 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:45.240 you can look at other things like equal marriage. For example, 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.840 when the equal marriage stuff happened under Obama in the US, 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.800 suddenly that debate, which had been completely off the table 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.960 really in the UK, suddenly that debate opened up and 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.520 within a year or two we'd we'd we'd legalized equal 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.440 marriage as well. Um, just because it's sort of somehow 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.560 made it okay, uh to talk about it, kind of 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.360 normalized the debate. So what happened in the US has 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:13.440 been immensely important, and they've you know that the models 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:15.440 that have been adopted have been quite different in many 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.240 of the states, so that there is also this interesting 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:20.240 laboratory of change in the US that you have all 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:22.280 these different models and we can look at what's working 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.200 and what's not working. And other countries have looked at that, 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.840 and they've looked at the successes and failings of US 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.920 legalization and learned from it and developed that move move forward. 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:38.440 But I think the political power of the US doing something, 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:40.640 even though it didn't happen at a federal level, it 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.960 still created a political environment in which it became okay 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:47.520 for other countries and other political forums to to start 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.320 discussing this, and it became more difficult for the US 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.800 to sort of try and stomp on other reformers because 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.880 you go back a few years before Colorado and Washington 0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:01.080 and the US was, you know, giving uh, the Dutch 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.560 a hard time about the coffee shops for decades, and 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.320 then suddenly the US is doing it themselves, and it's 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.680 kind of like, wow, that's that's a real change. And 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:10.840 I suspect the things that are happening with psychedelics, with 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:15.760 magic mushrooms and psychedelic plants in Oregon and Colorado and elsewhere, 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:17.600 and things that are happening with krat Tom and so on. 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.440 I think that will probably help open up the debate 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.440 for psychedelic regulation around the world as well, because it's 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.840 sort of just becomes okay to talk about it. The US, 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:31.840 their historical historical position, their hegemonic position in geopolitics. It 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.480 just creates a sort of safe space for other nation 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.000 states to engage in those debates, which just simply wasn't 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.080 there before. Yeah, No, I think I think that makes sense. 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:42.720 But I'll tell you it's funny when you we talked 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:46.320 about Uruguay, right, Um, you know, when when President Mohican 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.520 Uruguay sort of proposes and as you said, there have 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.600 been conversations going on, and folks in the US have 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.040 been engaging, and then you have you know, not just 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:58.520 transformed but also i DPC International Drug Policy Consortion. So 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:02.320 there are conversations had um. But what I oftimes think 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:06.000 about Uruguay is that it was a country where the 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.120 medical marijuana thing had not really developed separately in the 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.680 way ahead in the US. Right So the US opening 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:14.840 on medical marijuana, you know, beginning in ninety six, and 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:19.120 then Colorado, Washington obviously opened up space. But Uruguay was 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.400 an example of a place which moved forward without having 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.520 ever done that intermediate medical marijuana step. As far as 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.520 I know, yeah, that's true. I think. I think that 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:32.160 the one of the differences between reform in Latin America 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.360 and in Europe and North America is the key driver 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.880 UM of the reform narrative in Latin America has generally 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.480 been security issues, so it's much been more been about 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:47.760 the cartels and violence and insecurity. UM and President Mohica 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.240 of Uruguay his his sort of discourse around the need 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:55.000 for cannabis reform, but his discourse was very much around security. 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.240 I mean, he didn't want to see what he called 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:01.040 the columbian Ization of Uruguay. Didn't want to see Uruguay 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.879 become a kind of you know, moved towards narco state 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.840 type status. So he drove what I mean, you know, 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.440 how much organized crime activity was involved in the domestic 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.760 cannabis industry in Uruguay is moved, but that that was 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:20.360 still his driving force rather than um, you know, economic 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.920 opportunities or social justice or public health. I mean, those 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.000 things all came into it, but the driver and the driver. 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.480 I think similarly for the Coca cocaine regulation debate in 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:35.760 Colombia now and the Petro is is very similar. It's 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.880 it's driven not by you know, and the overdose crisis 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:44.399 or by over and you know, mass incarceration and social 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:48.840 justice stuff. It's driven more by issues around security and 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:54.280 cartel activity and undermining institutions and you know violence. That 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.360 dynamic is all now beginning to unravel, you know, as 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:02.680 as the global South is becoming more potent politically, more 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.720 confident on geopolitical stage, more willing to stand up to 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:10.760 the US and some of the kind of hegemonic powers 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.600 of the of the global North, we're seeing a great 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:18.000 a lot more confidence um in those countries like Colombia, 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.679 you know, and and and like Uruguay to say no, 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:22.760 we're not We're not going to play this game anymore. 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.040 We're gonna we're gonna plow our own foreign and do 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.040 our own thing because the war on drugs just has 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.240 not worked for us. We've been fighting your war on 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.280 drugs for generations and all it's brought to us is 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:36.479 misery and degradation and and and violence and death. And 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:38.320 we're just not going to do it anymore. Let me 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.239 stop you right there, because before I want to go 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.440 back to the Uruguay thing and some of the Latin 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.600 American context and I both want to Although I agree 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:45.879 with most of what you said, I do want to 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:47.760 challenge you in a few things and also provides some 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.080 context for our audience. So when we're talking about the 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.520 former president of Uruguay, President Mohica, you know he was 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:56.720 at all leftist Gorilla Tomorrow guerrillas back in the seventies 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.639 or whatever, who became this one term president. Part of 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.680 what at him successful, of course, was that Uruguay they 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.200 never had more than forty of the public supporting the 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.399 legalization of cannabis, but they had a leadership, as you 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:11.640 pointed out by President Mohika, and a very strong tradition 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:15.359 of party discipline which enabled this to happen, for Uruguay 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:19.000 to pass a law legalizing cannabis a year after Colorado 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.560 and Washington had done it. Now you talk about securitization, 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.560 I think they're The big issue was that Uruguay was 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:28.080 importing most of its cannabis from I think Paraguay, which 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.840 is the leading producer of cannabis um in the southern 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:36.240 part of South America and where organized crime is inevitably involved. 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.040 But just to complicate it a bit. I mean, I 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.200 think if we look obviously talking about the bigger issues 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.720 around coca cocaine or heroin, opium in other places, security 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.000 is a big issue. But if you look elsewhere in 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:52.359 Latin America, I remember, we were perpetually frustrated at you know, 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.880 more and more people Latin American especially that American elites 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.760 understood the extent to which US inspired you know, drug 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:04.679 war policies, drug war pressures, prohibitionist frameworks were absolutely disaster 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:07.440 for their country, sort of like you know America during 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:10.560 alcohol prohibition times fifty or times a hundred in terms 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.280 of creating you know, violence, crime, corruption, all that sort 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.520 of stuff. But we also saw virtually nothing in the 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.840 way of progress on that front in response to the 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.919 security issue. And where the progress did happen in recent years, 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:28.840 for example, in countries like Columbia or in Mexico or 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:33.320 even elsewhere, it was typically medical marijuana sort of sticking 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:36.760 its nose under the tent. Right in Mexico and Colombia, 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:40.160 you have these mothers, these parents of you know, of 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:44.320 infants and children, are that terrible Dravette syndrome, that epileptic syndrome, 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:46.240 that you know, where cannabis is the only thing that 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.040 really helps to reduce seizures, and they become this kind 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.440 of inspirational force in a way. So much similar woul 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.000 happened the United States. So it seems that even in 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.240 that Latin American context, where security is such a major 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.920 issue and organized crime and the violence and corruption of 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:04.000 such a major issue, that nonetheless, apart from Uruguay, it 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:08.640 did seem like medical marijuana was the key elements sort 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:13.719 of opening things up. Yeah, I think I think I 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:18.159 agree with you on that medical cannabis has you know it, 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:22.400 as you say, it does help normalize, um, the concept 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.080 of a regulated cannabis market, and it does kind of 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:29.240 detoxify the idea of cannabis as this as this as deadly, 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:31.600 this deadly drug in the in the public perception that 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:35.040 certainly has played out um in most countries, and it's 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:40.720 happening in Europe now. Um. I think the thing with Uruguay, 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:42.359 I mean, one of the things is that cannabis was 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.760 never really criminalized in Urugua any In fact, drugs possession 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:51.440 generally was never criminalized in Uruguay. So right, and as 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:53.760 we forget and we talk about Portugal, and you know 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.560 with its decrem model that it brought in about twenty 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:58.760 years ago, and we think of them as the pioneer, 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:00.760 and in many of the sects they were. But from 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:05.080 a legal perspective, Uruguay already had something of the Portugal 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:09.600 model for decades. Yes, and they were they were clearly, um, 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:14.000 quite pragmatic. I mean, I actually I met Mohika when 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:16.840 we were working there. Because it's quite a small country, 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:20.080 so your access to the politicians is a lot easier 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:22.200 than if you're in a huge country like the US. 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:23.960 You can just get to meet the president and so 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:26.040 we we went and met him and it was quite 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:30.359 an amusing meeting UM. But I sort of asked him, 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.920 I said, are you worried about you know, America breathing 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:36.639 Danian neck and giving you heat for legalizing cannabis? I mean, 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:38.560 are they gonna are you wired? They're going to come 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:41.080 down on your hard And he was like, he was like, look, 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:44.080 I was imprisoned down a well for three years and 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:48.000 the tortured. Um, I don't he basically that I don't 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:51.080 give a shit about the US, and and it was 0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:54.040 it was just so refreshing to see just someone literally 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:56.000 doing leads because it wasn't just cannabis. I mean, this 0:22:56.080 --> 0:23:02.080 is a guy who also legalized gay marriage and abortion, which, 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:04.879 like cannabis, none of them had a popular mandate. He 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:07.760 just thought they were the right thing to do. Um 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:10.280 And you know, he got away with it because the 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:13.160 public respected his leadership even though he didn't he didn't 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:15.119 have a popular mandate for any of those issues. But 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:20.000 you know that was just genuine leadership. I mean, that's trusty. 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:22.040