1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of my Heart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. So today's a 10 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: big day for me because this will be the concluding 11 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: episode of season two of Psychoactive, which means we've put 12 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: out eighty episodes since the summer of plus a whole 13 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: bunch of bonus episodes, And so I thought this would 14 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: be a good time to really take the opportunity because 15 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,919 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if and when Psychoactive will be returning 16 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: and in what form to thank a number of people. 17 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: Let me start with Darren Aronovski and maybe of you 18 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: know him as the famous movie director. Um. He and 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: I met about twenty years ago. We were introduced by 20 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: phone named Gonga White who took each of us not 21 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: together separately on our first Ayahuaski experience. But Darren emailed 22 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: me back in June and suggested the idea of my 23 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: hosting of podcast on psychedelics, actually he thought, and my 24 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: response to him was, I'd actually rather do one on 25 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: all drugs, and he said, let's do it. So first, Darren, 26 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: thank you ever so much for initiating this project and 27 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: for having the confidence in the faith in need to 28 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: make this happen. And then next let me thank the 29 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: producers who have put in the most time and effort recently. 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: That has been no him Osband at Protozoa and Josh 31 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: Stain at My Heart, and then their predecessors who got 32 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: this going Catcha kum Coova at Protozoa and Benjamin kubrick 33 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: Um also at Protozoa. I mean, at the top of 34 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: the list, Dylan Golden, my key collaborator over there, but 35 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: also Ari Handel and Elizabeth Geeseus and a Vivit Barrio 36 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: sph and Eric Watson, and over at my Heart there's 37 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Matthew Frederick and of course the head 38 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: of the whole enterprise, the Bob Pittman, and of course 39 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: Robert Beatty, who came up with a wonderful logo for Psychoactive. 40 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: So thanks to all of you. It's been wonderful working 41 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: with this team. And I apologize to those whose names 42 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: I've forgotten who are working more behind the scenes on 43 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: all of this. But what I can tell you is 44 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: the levels of professionalism and time and commitment and good 45 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: times with the folks at Protozoa and I heart the 46 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: co producers of Psychoactive has just made this whole experience 47 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: a real pleasure. Next, I want to thank you the listeners. 48 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: Of course I don't know exactly who all of you are. 49 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: Some of you do tell me, but I can tell 50 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: you this about the data that we collect. Most of 51 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: the listeners maybe have been in the United States, but 52 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: there have been listeners in over a hundred seventy countries 53 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: and territories around the world, so the audience truly is global, 54 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: and I want to thank especially those of you who 55 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: are listening in countries with fairly oppressive governments, where these 56 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: sorts of conversations that we have on Psychoactive would not 57 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: be so well tolerated in your own countries. I hope 58 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: these conversations have been a source of inspiration and enlightenment 59 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: for all of you. Now, as I said, I'm not 60 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: sure what the next incarnation of Psychoactive will be or 61 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: when I am going to take a break for a 62 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: while at least, but I would welcome your feedback. So 63 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: contact me through Instagram or other social media, or email 64 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: me directly at Ethan at Napleman dot net. That's Ethan 65 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: at Napleman dot net. I can't promise to get back 66 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: to you, but I always enjoy getting the feedback, not 67 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: just the positive, you know, but also the negative and 68 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: critical ideas for the future. Please keep posting your comments, 69 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: whether it's on iHeart or Google or Apple or wherever 70 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts. The episodes will remain up for 71 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: the foreseeable future on all of the platforms, so please 72 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 1: keep listening. And so with this let me launch into 73 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: episode number eighty. And for number this one, I decided 74 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: to ask somebody who has been a long time ally 75 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: and friend of mine. His name is Steve Roles. He's 76 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: based in the u K's British. He has been the 77 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: senior policy analyst at the British Drug post Reform Organization 78 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: TRANSFORM almost since its inception, since that organization was founded 79 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: by Danny Kushlick in the mid nine so he's been 80 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: there for twenty five years. He's widely regarded, but not 81 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: US as an expert in the UK, but perhaps as 82 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: the single most knowledgeable person when it comes to thinking 83 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: about the legal regulation of drugs. I mean that means 84 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: that he's been a consultant to governments from Canada, Germany, Luxembourg, Jamaica, Malta, Mexico, 85 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: uh Uruguay, really almost every place except the US when 86 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: it comes to legalizing cannabis. It means he's been a 87 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: recent advisor to the Petro government in Colombia on their 88 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: proposals for legalizing coca cocaine. He's been dealing with the 89 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: Dutch on the issues of legally regulating M d M A. 90 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: Uh So, Steve, thank you ever so much for joining 91 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: me on the last episode of season two of Psychoactives. 92 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: That's my pleasure, Ethan, It's great to be him. Well. So, 93 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: we have so much to talk about, from models of 94 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: legalization to the actual realities of legalization. But let me 95 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: just begin um by by asking you. I mean, you know, 96 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: I think some of our listeners will know. I've been 97 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: involved in this issue since the late nineteen eighties. Now, Steve, 98 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: you've jumped into this about a decade later, in the 99 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 1: mid to late nineteen nineties. But when you look at 100 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: this evolution in the twenty years you've been involved in this, 101 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: what most jumps out at you, Well, I mean, I guess, 102 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,799 Speaker 1: like like you, Ethan, it's been a remarkable, fascinating journey 103 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: because what what started, as you know, discussions amongst reform 104 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: advocates like us, has moved from the sort of theoretical 105 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: space into the real world, and things which were seen 106 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: as outrageous, sort of extreme heretical views, um when when 107 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: we started are now very much mainstream political views and 108 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: supported by a majority of the public um. And you know, 109 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 1: they are happening on the ground on every continent on Earth. 110 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: So things which were impossible, not not even twenty five 111 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: years ago, even ten years ago. You know, if you 112 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: think about it, Colorado and Washington and Uruguay, that that 113 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: all happened in two thousand and twelve, So that was 114 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: only just really ten years ago. Um. And before that 115 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: it was just still all theoretical. It was things that 116 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: we were hoping for, I mean, there were some things 117 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: happening with medical cannabis and so on, but when you 118 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: get into the non medical recreational drug legalization regulation, it's 119 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: really very much you know, modern history. UM. And So 120 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: for a long time, we were you know, making the case, 121 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: we were writing our reports, we were developing proposals, UM, 122 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: we were advocating, we were trying to change the framing 123 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: of the debate and try and influence key political discourses 124 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: in the media and in in in in professional forums 125 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: and in political forums. And sometimes it didn't feel like 126 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: we were getting anywhere, um, But clearly we were, because 127 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: at some point a threshold was passed and reform became 128 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: not just a possibility but a reality. And since those 129 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: since two thousand and twelve, there's been a kind of um, 130 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: cascading domino effect. Uh. And and you know, from from 131 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: two states in the US to now twenty one from 132 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: from just Uruguay, we're seeing cannabis reforms for nomenical cannabis 133 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: on on every continent now except maybe the Arctic. And 134 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: and and we're seeing, as you've already said, we've seen 135 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: the debate move beyond cannabis into psychedelics and and cocaine 136 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: and coca and m D m A and other stimulates 137 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: and other drugs, and so the things that we you know, 138 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: the things that we have been advocating all of this time, 139 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: are becoming a reality. And that is both interesting and 140 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: fascinating and historical view, but also you know, satisfying from 141 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 1: professional view to sort of things that we were convinced 142 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: that we were right, but everyone was telling us we 143 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: were mad. It turns out that actually we were right 144 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: because we've been vindicated by history, and you know, the 145 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: evidence is coming in and showing showing that we were 146 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: what we were saying was essentially right, and you know, 147 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: here we are. We're still a long way to go, 148 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: but I feel, yeah, satisfied that that we have you know, 149 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: we haven't. We weren't just some cranky kind of tinfoil 150 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: hat nutters and heretics and that you know, history, we 151 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: are on the right side of history. M hm no, 152 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: I mean, Steve, I'll tell you. Part of what kept 153 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: me going all those decades of being involved in the advocacy, 154 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: and you know, when people would think this was just 155 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: a quixonic enterprise, was the sense that we were right 156 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: in policy terms, We were right from a justice perspective, 157 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: we were right from a perspectives of individual and broader morality, 158 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: and that it just seemed inevitable that somehow this but 159 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: that on some level, this bubble of a kind of 160 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 1: um prohibition, this policy, the notion that you could somehow 161 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: control global illicit commodities markets through policies of repression repression 162 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: was somehow gonna work. But I want to ask you this. 163 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: You know, I've oftentimes made the point that if you 164 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: ask the question, how and why was it that the 165 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: United States, which for almost a century, really from the 166 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: early twentieth century until basically the second term of the 167 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: Obama administration, really was the global champion of the war 168 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: on drugs, right exporting and modeling and coercing other governments 169 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: to adopt, you know, fairly punitive prohibitionist policies. How was 170 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: it that we nonetheless became the leader when it came 171 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: to the legal regulation of cannabis. And I've answered that 172 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: question the US context by saying it really goes back 173 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: to medical marijuana, goes back to that first medical marijuana 174 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: ballot initiative victory in California six It was the one 175 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 1: that afforded the first opportunity to bring marijuana markets above 176 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: ground with the medical marijuana dispensaries. It was the one 177 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: that gave people an opportunity to feel like what regulating 178 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: marijuana would be like? Right, and it helped, you know, 179 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: in every set, transformed that dialogue in a way that 180 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: opened up the door, shifted public opinion, shifted government thinking 181 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: to imagining a world in which the legalization of marijuana 182 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 1: not just for medicinal purposes, but more broadly for all 183 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: at us was possible. But the question is for you 184 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: in the UK, and looking at this globally, to what 185 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: extent was that the model elsewhere? First? Secondly, to what 186 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 1: extent was what happened in the US kind of the 187 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: inspiration or the instigation without which reform would not have 188 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: happened elsewhere, Because we always look at the Dutch coffee 189 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: shop system is being you know, one of the actually 190 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: pre models to the US medical marijuana model. And to 191 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: what extent has this happened in some countries actually totally 192 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: independently of medical marijuana being the stepping still, I mean, 193 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: that's a great question. Um Uh, there's certainly. Um I 194 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: think the fact that the US, for the reasons you've 195 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: you've you've you've touched on the fact that the US 196 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: did go first, snificantly went first. I mean, I don't 197 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: want to you know, erased Uruguay from history here, because 198 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: Uruguay was the first member state and kind of happened 199 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: around the same time as Colorado and Washington. But well 200 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: sort of right because in a way, Uruguay legalizes as 201 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: the end of twenty thirteen, so a year after all 202 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: after Colorado Washington. In fact, I've sometimes wondered whether or 203 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: not Uruguay would have happened in Colorado and Washington, and 204 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: that kind of for sure. But the process was unfolding 205 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: from about two thousand and eleven, and there were bills 206 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: being tabled, and it was a very active public debate. 207 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: There were expert consultations going on in two thousand, two 208 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: thousand and twelve that TRANSFORM and myself and others UM 209 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: were involved in. But I think the thing that was 210 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: very significant in terms of the US for the global 211 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: debate was really what you say, I mean, the fact 212 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: that the US had been the kind of drug war 213 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: sort of bully of the world for for all these decades, 214 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: going all the way back to you know, um the 215 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: drafting of the the you know U Single Convention in 216 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 1: the forties and fifties and Harry Ainsling and all that, 217 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:08,719 Speaker 1: all that ghastly history. Um. The fact that they then 218 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: did become these world leaders in the cannabis legalization regulation, 219 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: it did create space for the debate to blossom elsewhere 220 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: in the world. Just because of the US is hackmonic 221 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: role in geopolitics generally and in drug policy specifically. Um, 222 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: they kind of lost their authority to bully other countries 223 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: on cannabis regulation when US states started legalizing. And you know, 224 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: when when the US does stuff, it becomes okay to 225 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: talk about it in other places in the world. And 226 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: you can look at other things like equal marriage. For example, 227 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: when the equal marriage stuff happened under Obama in the US, 228 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: suddenly that debate, which had been completely off the table 229 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: really in the UK, suddenly that debate opened up and 230 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: within a year or two we'd we'd we'd legalized equal 231 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: marriage as well. Um, just because it's sort of somehow 232 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: made it okay, uh to talk about it, kind of 233 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: normalized the debate. So what happened in the US has 234 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: been immensely important, and they've you know that the models 235 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: that have been adopted have been quite different in many 236 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: of the states, so that there is also this interesting 237 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: laboratory of change in the US that you have all 238 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: these different models and we can look at what's working 239 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: and what's not working. And other countries have looked at that, 240 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: and they've looked at the successes and failings of US 241 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: legalization and learned from it and developed that move move forward. 242 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: But I think the political power of the US doing something, 243 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: even though it didn't happen at a federal level, it 244 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: still created a political environment in which it became okay 245 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: for other countries and other political forums to to start 246 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: discussing this, and it became more difficult for the US 247 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: to sort of try and stomp on other reformers because 248 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: you go back a few years before Colorado and Washington 249 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: and the US was, you know, giving uh, the Dutch 250 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: a hard time about the coffee shops for decades, and 251 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: then suddenly the US is doing it themselves, and it's 252 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: kind of like, wow, that's that's a real change. And 253 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: I suspect the things that are happening with psychedelics, with 254 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: magic mushrooms and psychedelic plants in Oregon and Colorado and elsewhere, 255 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: and things that are happening with krat Tom and so on. 256 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: I think that will probably help open up the debate 257 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: for psychedelic regulation around the world as well, because it's 258 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: sort of just becomes okay to talk about it. The US, 259 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: their historical historical position, their hegemonic position in geopolitics. It 260 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: just creates a sort of safe space for other nation 261 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: states to engage in those debates, which just simply wasn't 262 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: there before. Yeah, No, I think I think that makes sense. 263 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: But I'll tell you it's funny when you we talked 264 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: about Uruguay, right, Um, you know, when when President Mohican 265 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: Uruguay sort of proposes and as you said, there have 266 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: been conversations going on, and folks in the US have 267 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: been engaging, and then you have you know, not just 268 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: transformed but also i DPC International Drug Policy Consortion. So 269 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: there are conversations had um. But what I oftimes think 270 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: about Uruguay is that it was a country where the 271 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: medical marijuana thing had not really developed separately in the 272 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: way ahead in the US. Right So the US opening 273 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: on medical marijuana, you know, beginning in ninety six, and 274 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: then Colorado, Washington obviously opened up space. But Uruguay was 275 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: an example of a place which moved forward without having 276 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: ever done that intermediate medical marijuana step. As far as 277 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: I know, yeah, that's true. I think. I think that 278 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: the one of the differences between reform in Latin America 279 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: and in Europe and North America is the key driver 280 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: UM of the reform narrative in Latin America has generally 281 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: been security issues, so it's much been more been about 282 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: the cartels and violence and insecurity. UM and President Mohica 283 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: of Uruguay his his sort of discourse around the need 284 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: for cannabis reform, but his discourse was very much around security. 285 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: I mean, he didn't want to see what he called 286 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: the columbian Ization of Uruguay. Didn't want to see Uruguay 287 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: become a kind of you know, moved towards narco state 288 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: type status. So he drove what I mean, you know, 289 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: how much organized crime activity was involved in the domestic 290 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: cannabis industry in Uruguay is moved, but that that was 291 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: still his driving force rather than um, you know, economic 292 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: opportunities or social justice or public health. I mean, those 293 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: things all came into it, but the driver and the driver. 294 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: I think similarly for the Coca cocaine regulation debate in 295 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: Colombia now and the Petro is is very similar. It's 296 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: it's driven not by you know, and the overdose crisis 297 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: or by over and you know, mass incarceration and social 298 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: justice stuff. It's driven more by issues around security and 299 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: cartel activity and undermining institutions and you know violence. That 300 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 1: dynamic is all now beginning to unravel, you know, as 301 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: as the global South is becoming more potent politically, more 302 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: confident on geopolitical stage, more willing to stand up to 303 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: the US and some of the kind of hegemonic powers 304 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: of the of the global North, we're seeing a great 305 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: a lot more confidence um in those countries like Colombia, 306 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: you know, and and and like Uruguay to say no, 307 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: we're not We're not going to play this game anymore. 308 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna plow our own foreign and do 309 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: our own thing because the war on drugs just has 310 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: not worked for us. We've been fighting your war on 311 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: drugs for generations and all it's brought to us is 312 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,479 Speaker 1: misery and degradation and and and violence and death. And 313 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: we're just not going to do it anymore. Let me 314 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,239 Speaker 1: stop you right there, because before I want to go 315 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: back to the Uruguay thing and some of the Latin 316 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: American context and I both want to Although I agree 317 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: with most of what you said, I do want to 318 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: challenge you in a few things and also provides some 319 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: context for our audience. So when we're talking about the 320 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: former president of Uruguay, President Mohica, you know he was 321 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: at all leftist Gorilla Tomorrow guerrillas back in the seventies 322 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: or whatever, who became this one term president. Part of 323 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: what at him successful, of course, was that Uruguay they 324 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: never had more than forty of the public supporting the 325 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: legalization of cannabis, but they had a leadership, as you 326 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: pointed out by President Mohika, and a very strong tradition 327 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: of party discipline which enabled this to happen, for Uruguay 328 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: to pass a law legalizing cannabis a year after Colorado 329 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: and Washington had done it. Now you talk about securitization, 330 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: I think they're The big issue was that Uruguay was 331 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: importing most of its cannabis from I think Paraguay, which 332 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: is the leading producer of cannabis um in the southern 333 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: part of South America and where organized crime is inevitably involved. 334 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: But just to complicate it a bit. I mean, I 335 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: think if we look obviously talking about the bigger issues 336 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: around coca cocaine or heroin, opium in other places, security 337 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: is a big issue. But if you look elsewhere in 338 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: Latin America, I remember, we were perpetually frustrated at you know, 339 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 1: more and more people Latin American especially that American elites 340 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: understood the extent to which US inspired you know, drug 341 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: war policies, drug war pressures, prohibitionist frameworks were absolutely disaster 342 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: for their country, sort of like you know America during 343 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: alcohol prohibition times fifty or times a hundred in terms 344 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: of creating you know, violence, crime, corruption, all that sort 345 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: of stuff. But we also saw virtually nothing in the 346 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: way of progress on that front in response to the 347 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: security issue. And where the progress did happen in recent years, 348 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: for example, in countries like Columbia or in Mexico or 349 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: even elsewhere, it was typically medical marijuana sort of sticking 350 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: its nose under the tent. Right in Mexico and Colombia, 351 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: you have these mothers, these parents of you know, of 352 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: infants and children, are that terrible Dravette syndrome, that epileptic syndrome, 353 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: that you know, where cannabis is the only thing that 354 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: really helps to reduce seizures, and they become this kind 355 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: of inspirational force in a way. So much similar woul 356 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: happened the United States. So it seems that even in 357 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: that Latin American context, where security is such a major 358 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: issue and organized crime and the violence and corruption of 359 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: such a major issue, that nonetheless, apart from Uruguay, it 360 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: did seem like medical marijuana was the key elements sort 361 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,719 Speaker 1: of opening things up. Yeah, I think I think I 362 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: agree with you on that medical cannabis has you know it, 363 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: as you say, it does help normalize, um, the concept 364 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: of a regulated cannabis market, and it does kind of 365 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: detoxify the idea of cannabis as this as this as deadly, 366 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: this deadly drug in the in the public perception that 367 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: certainly has played out um in most countries, and it's 368 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: happening in Europe now. Um. I think the thing with Uruguay, 369 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things is that cannabis was 370 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: never really criminalized in Urugua any In fact, drugs possession 371 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: generally was never criminalized in Uruguay. So right, and as 372 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: we forget and we talk about Portugal, and you know 373 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: with its decrem model that it brought in about twenty 374 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: years ago, and we think of them as the pioneer, 375 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: and in many of the sects they were. But from 376 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: a legal perspective, Uruguay already had something of the Portugal 377 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: model for decades. Yes, and they were they were clearly, um, 378 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: quite pragmatic. I mean, I actually I met Mohika when 379 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: we were working there. Because it's quite a small country, 380 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: so your access to the politicians is a lot easier 381 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: than if you're in a huge country like the US. 382 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: You can just get to meet the president and so 383 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: we we went and met him and it was quite 384 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: an amusing meeting UM. But I sort of asked him, 385 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: I said, are you worried about you know, America breathing 386 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 1: Danian neck and giving you heat for legalizing cannabis? I mean, 387 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: are they gonna are you wired? They're going to come 388 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: down on your hard And he was like, he was like, look, 389 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: I was imprisoned down a well for three years and 390 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: the tortured. Um, I don't he basically that I don't 391 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: give a shit about the US, and and it was 392 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: it was just so refreshing to see just someone literally 393 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: doing leads because it wasn't just cannabis. I mean, this 394 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: is a guy who also legalized gay marriage and abortion, which, 395 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: like cannabis, none of them had a popular mandate. He 396 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: just thought they were the right thing to do. Um 397 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: And you know, he got away with it because the 398 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: public respected his leadership even though he didn't he didn't 399 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: have a popular mandate for any of those issues. But 400 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: you know that was just genuine leadership. I mean, that's trusty. 401 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: But you know, I'll also say, you know they had 402 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: and I remember, you know, he had a right hand guy, 403 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,239 Speaker 1: Diego can Yet. I think, who was, you know, one 404 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: of our key liaisons. And I remember talking with him 405 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: when he had come to the US, and I think 406 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: some of the story can be told now, but they 407 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: were to some extent concerned how the US respond because 408 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: the US in the past had been so you know, 409 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: beating up on Canada if they talked about doing harm reduction, 410 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: or beating up in Australia, if they thought if they 411 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: were going to you know, or you know, Netherlands or 412 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 1: whatever country wanted to move forward. And what he told 413 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: me it was that there had been a discussion with 414 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: folks in the White House and he he wasn't precise 415 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,239 Speaker 1: who it was. I speculated that it might have been 416 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: Vice President Biden, but who had essentially said at that 417 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: point that listen, um, so long as this is entirely 418 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: a domestic issue in Uruguay, so long as you're not 419 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: exporting this stuff to the US, so long as you're 420 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: not talking about legalizing drugs other than cannabis, then we 421 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: don't have to see this as affecting American national security 422 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: or other political interests whatsoever. In other words, it was 423 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: a kind of tacit qualified green light to saying we're 424 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: not going to respond to you the way we have 425 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: in the past. And I think the U. S Ambassador, 426 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: you know, follow that line. And then there was a 427 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: very another pivotal moment. There was an Assistant Secretary of 428 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: State for International Arcotics International i n L the State 429 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: Department Arcotics and Law Enforcement Office, and he was a 430 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: highly respected diplomat, William Brownfield, and he was something of 431 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: an old drug warrior, but he had been a very 432 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: respected former ambassador to Chile and Venezuela, Colombia. He'd become 433 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: the head of the Narcotics and Law Enforcement Office in 434 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: twenty eleven. Then Uruguay and Washington legalized in twelve, and 435 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: the Obama administration is in a bind, like what do 436 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: they do about Washington? And Colorado's is in clear violation 437 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: of the federal law, and clear violation in seventy Control 438 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: Substance Act, and clear violation of the U N Conventions, 439 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: And they kind of toss and turn and finally, and 440 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: I think the summer Fall often come out with what 441 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: becomes known as the quote unquote brown Field doctrine. And 442 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: that Brownfield doctrine essentially reverses um, you know, almost a 443 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: century of US kind of mono prohibitionist policy. It basically says, 444 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: we are no longer going to be intolerant of diversity. 445 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: We are going to be open to other possibilities and 446 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: debates so long as countries keep collaborating on the basic 447 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: efforts to crack down around drug later organized crime and 448 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 1: trafficking and all this sort of stuff. Right. So, I mean, 449 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: as an American, I saw that, you know, Colorad Washington 450 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: lead to the Obio administration have to rethink how they're 451 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: gonna have to deal with this domestically, and that inevitably 452 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: leads to some rethinking of how to deal with this 453 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: stuff internationally. Now, how did all this look from where 454 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: you're sitting, you know, advising government sitting in the UK 455 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: looking at this from outside the US perspective? Well, I 456 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: mean the Brownfield statement was was huge. I mean it 457 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: was you know, it was huge within drug policy circles. 458 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: It didn't I mean, it got some media coverage, It 459 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: didn't particularly reverberate around the world outside of drug policy circles. 460 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: But you know, it's you know, it's still being quoted today, 461 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: and I think you're absolutely right it was. It was 462 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: a pivotal moment because it was basically the US acknowledging 463 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: that the global consensus on on prohibition of all drugs 464 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: was you know, crumbling um and they needed to be 465 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: tolerant of because the brown Field wasn't. He didn't just 466 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: talk about cannabis as well. He talked about the legalization 467 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: of of all drugs or or other drugs jet drugs only. 468 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: I can't remember the exact wording that he used, but 469 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: that was really really significant too, and it create did 470 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: the context. I think the debate that has unfolded subsequently. 471 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's going to be really interesting to see 472 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: how the what's going on in Columbia, with the debate 473 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: around coca leaf and cocaine regulation, is going to stress 474 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: test that. You know, how how far can countries like 475 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: Columbia push things before the US. That starts to get 476 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: pretty jumpy. And I suspect um, since Petro's election, they 477 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: have been going or hang on a sec this this 478 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: this guy, this new president Columbia is actually talking about 479 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: legalizing cocaine. And you know, I've been working on this 480 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: bill that you mentioned in your introduction around the regulation 481 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: of coca leaf that includes a pilot for a legally 482 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: regulated cocaine market for for non medical youth, very strictly 483 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: regulated and go to the details if you want, but 484 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: it's in that bill. And one of the people who 485 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: was on the committee that worked on that that that 486 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: worked on that bill was Petro and he is now president. 487 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: So he's spoken favorite, it's a favor of it's on 488 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: the record, he's voted for it. Um, it's all on 489 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: the record. And you know when The Economist did there 490 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: a feature on cocaine regulation back in November, he then 491 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: tweeted it. Um. You know the screen grab at the 492 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 1: full the full editorial that was saying, you know, Biden 493 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: should legalize cocaine. They need to go further than just 494 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: partnering a few people for for cannabis. So it's going 495 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: to be interesting to see how the US actually reacts 496 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: to that. But um, you know, if there was, if 497 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: there was a stress test of the Brownfield doctrine, I 498 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: think what's happening in Colombia is going to be it. 499 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: And it's gonna be really fascinating to see how that 500 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: plays out. So, you know, I should tell our listeners 501 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: that that Steve has been the lead author on a 502 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: number of very important publications. The first one that they wrote, 503 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: maybe almost fifteen years ago, was basically a blueprint for 504 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: legal regulation of drugs called Blueprint for Regulation. But he's 505 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: also been the lead author on a volume called How 506 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: to Regulate Cannabis, which is now in its third edition. 507 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: More recently, a couple of years ago, they published How 508 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: to Regulate Stimulants, which included this issue that Steve's talking 509 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: about now, around cocaine, cocaine and around emphetamine and I 510 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: think as M D M A. And they're currently fundraising 511 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: to produce a volume about how to regulate psychedelics. Now 512 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: this Steve, what I want to go on this coca 513 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: cocaine thing. I mean, obviously, coca has been legally produced 514 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: in Bolivia and Peru for many decades, right, there was 515 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: always an exception within the UN conventions on that allowing 516 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: them to produce it for you know, local purposes, but 517 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: never allowed to export any cocaine except for the kind 518 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: of decocon allized coca leaf that's used as part of 519 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: Coca Cola's flavoring and such and some and some tiny 520 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: bit that's used for pharmaceutical purposes, because cocaine still does 521 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: have limited medicinal pharmaceutical purposes. But when we look at 522 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: what's going on now, right, I mean, there's obviously the 523 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: issue domestically about how do you regulate this um. But 524 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: before we get into that, one of the big elephants 525 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: in the room always is the United Nations, right, the 526 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: United Nations the anti Drug conventions going back, you know, 527 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: not just to the Opium Conventions the early twentieth century, 528 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: over a hundred years ago, but to the ninety six 529 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: Control Convention, the sixty one Single Convention, the subsequent ones 530 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: in sight eight um. That was always seen as a 531 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: barrier to any form of states legalizing markets beyond the 532 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: research are strictly medical. Now to go back to Uruguay, 533 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, when Uruguay does this, the United Nations 534 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: about un we should specify there's two major there's three 535 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: major U n. Drug agencies. Right, There's the U n 536 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: Office on Drugs and Crime un O d C, which 537 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: kind of funds programs around the world and whose head 538 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: is a semi public figure on drug control. There's the 539 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: Commission on Narcotic Drugs, which is a grouping of all 540 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: the various governments that meets, you know, periodically in every 541 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: spring in Vienna. And then there's the i n c B, 542 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: the International Our Cartage Control Board, which has sort of 543 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: been a watchdog of the conventions. Now when Uruguay is 544 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: moving forward and Mohicas saying we're going to do this 545 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: and we don't give it damn and the i n 546 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: c B reportedly sends a nasty letter to Mochica saying 547 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: you can't do this. Well, what happened there? I mean, 548 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,719 Speaker 1: obviously they just did it. Anyway. The thing about the 549 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: i n c B, which is, you know, like like 550 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: you say, they're the kind of they're kind of watchdog 551 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: of on compliance to these prohibitionist tenants within the within 552 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: the treat with the within the three treaties that you mentioned, 553 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: is that their their enforcement power is quite limited. I mean, 554 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: they can in theory make recommendations two more senior bodies 555 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: within the within the U N and that could ultimately 556 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: result in sanctions or some some other kind of uh, 557 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: punitive intervention. But that's never actually happened. I guess one 558 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: of the reasons that never actually happened is because until 559 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: you're agin country it ever, you know across that line 560 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: in the sand. You know, Uruguay was the first country 561 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: essentially to make a kind of hard defection from the treatise. 562 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: You know that the consensus around global prohibition, including cannabis prohibition, 563 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: had held for a long time, and the strength of 564 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: the treatise is essentially based it's rooted in the fact 565 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: that member states agree to to abide by them. You know, 566 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: these that they're they're quite difficult to enforce against non 567 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: compliance or breaches in in treaty commitments. And when Uruguay 568 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: moved forward with this, it's true the the I n 569 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: c B did did send them sort of snarky letters 570 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: and that the head of the then I n t 571 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: B actually referred to Uruguay as pirates, which was incredibly undiplomatic, 572 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: an inappropriate language for a UN agency to be referring 573 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: to to a member state ads UM. But they they 574 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: made an argument that uh, they were make doing the 575 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: reforms in pursuit of the human rights and public health 576 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: of the citizens of Uruguay, and their commitments to those goals, 577 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: the higher goals of the u N Charter Um superseded 578 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: technical compliance to you know, one or two articles in 579 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: these in these creaky old drug treaties. That's you know, 580 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: it's worth reminding people the treaty which it's sixty one. 581 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: You know, this is this is like more than sixty 582 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: years old now and was being drafted in the nineteen 583 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: forties and nineteen fifties, an era which is completely different political, economic, 584 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: social and cultural landscape to the one we live in now, 585 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: particularly around drug use. I mean, you know that the 586 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: sixties hadn't happened, and you know in the al Capoma 587 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: was still alive. This is when those the foundational bedrock 588 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: of global prohibition was being drafted and the urguins based 589 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: similk this creakial treaty. It's no longer relevant. We think 590 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 1: that the our commitments to peace and security and health 591 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: and well being a mankind that are enshrined in the 592 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: the overarching U N Charter are more important than technical 593 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: appliance to these creakial treaties, and we are going to essentially, 594 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: they said, we're just going to ignore them, um and 595 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: we we will engage in a constructive debate how to 596 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: resolve these tensions. And that kind of created the blueprint 597 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 1: which Canada followed. I think the difference between Canada and Uruguay, 598 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 1: because Canada became the second country to formally the second 599 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 1: member state to formally legalized cannabis and no medical uses, 600 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: Canada was a bit more bold. They actually acknowledged that 601 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: what they were doing was in non compliance, but and 602 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: they essentially made the same argument. They said, look, this 603 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: is in the interest of our citizens. You know, we 604 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: are following the guidance of the UN Charter in terms 605 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: of peace and security and health and well well being 606 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: of our citizens, and we will engage in a constructive 607 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 1: debate in the relevant forums to try and resolve these tensions. 608 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: And they kind of left it there, and now NTB 609 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: got a bit pissy and sent a few snarky letters. 610 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: Both Uruguay and Canada and other countries now that are 611 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 1: following their footsteps. But essentially there wasn't a great deal 612 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: that the I n t B could do apart from 613 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: kind of a bit of finger wagging and kind of 614 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: you know, naughty noughty and and give them a bit 615 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: of a telling off in their annual report. You know, 616 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: in many ways that can that prohibitions. Consensus and the 617 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: treaties have been remarkably effective at maintaining global prohibition. But 618 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: now the cracks are there, the first cracks in the dam. 619 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: It's starting to turn into a flood. And now we're 620 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: having five or six countries in Europe with seeing Thailand, 621 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,959 Speaker 1: South Africa, Mexico and all these other countries. So once 622 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: you have multiple countries defecting, then the whole system starts 623 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: to to collapse in its own internal connections and something 624 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: has to change, you know, either you get a new convention, 625 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: or conventions are repealed or the cons amended. Something has 626 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: to give, and I think that's the stage right now, 627 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: particularly with kind of as issue. We'll be talking more 628 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 1: after we hear this ad see. I mean, Steve, you're 629 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: reminding me that you know, back in the old days 630 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: when I was first speaking out in the late eighties, 631 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: and one of our leading antagonists was the chairman of 632 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: those US Congress Select Committee and Arcotics, Charlie Wrangel, very 633 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: prominent black politician out of Harlem, and he was when 634 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: I was debating on national television all this stuff, and 635 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: he does, he does a hearing, and part of his 636 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: rhetorical thing is, well, what's your plan? What are you 637 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: gonna do? How are you gonna sell it? How are 638 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: you gonna I'm kind of imitating his kind of voice 639 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: that he had um back back then, right, And I 640 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: remember thinking, you know, he is he actually really serious 641 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: about wanting to hear proposals? And I don't think he was. 642 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I sort of took the opportunity, I think, 643 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 1: as you know, you know, back when I was teaching 644 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: at Princeton, I put together a Princeton Working Group on 645 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: the Future of Drug Use and Alternatives to Drug Prohibition, 646 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: had eighteen distinguished academics from about a dozen different disciplines 647 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 1: to try to come up with a basic model of 648 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: how do you think about legally regulating drugs? How do 649 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 1: you find the right compromise between individual rights and community rights, 650 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: the right compromise between putting a stake through the heart 651 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: of the black market organized crime and at the same 652 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: time having a non free market public health approach. How 653 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: do you balance all of that? But we didn't have 654 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: that many models to go on. I mean, we could 655 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 1: look at alcohol in to bacco to some extent, but 656 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: it wasn't all that developed. But what I found was 657 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: that when we put out our recommendations from the Princeton 658 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,479 Speaker 1: Working Group in an article I published in Dentalists thirty 659 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: years ago, there was really no market for that. And 660 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: what you did with Transform beginning about fifteen years ago 661 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: was really one was you put this out with a 662 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 1: level of sophistication and a level of depth that really 663 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: nobody had done before. And secondly, in terms of the timing, 664 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: there was the beginnings of a market for this. I 665 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: mean when you wrote the first blueprint for regulation that 666 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: was almost before that time, but you laid the groundwork, 667 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: and obviously your volumes on regulating cannabis and stimulants are 668 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: are ever more timely in this front. Now, all of 669 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,760 Speaker 1: this goes to say that background issue of the United Nations. 670 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 1: What I remember, that's all I want to ask you about, 671 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 1: is five six, seven years ago there was this vigorous 672 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: and sometimes almost personal debate happening within the international drug 673 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 1: reform community about how we should think about the conventions. 674 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: And I remember there are people saying we have to 675 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: focus just on getting rid of the conventions entirely and 676 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: replacing them with something like maybe the w h O 677 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 1: Framework of tobacco control. And others would say that's a 678 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:03,280 Speaker 1: realistic let's focus on revising the conventions and removing cannabis 679 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: and maybe coca from the conventions. And THEOS would say, no, 680 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,879 Speaker 1: just let's just do what the President of Olivia Able 681 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: Morales did, were they withdrew from the conventions and then 682 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 1: rejoined making an exception. And the others say, let's just 683 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: do it. Mohican did, let's just let's just ignore the 684 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: conventions essentially. But what's your take of years after the 685 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: fact now and that whole debate among the reformers and 686 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 1: whether it was a productive debate or whether it really 687 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: actually resulted in something concrete. Well, I mean, I think 688 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 1: the first thing to say is that it was really 689 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: important to be having that debate, and it was to 690 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: be to laying out these different potential pathways for reform 691 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: of the u N system. Um, you know, nothing really 692 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,439 Speaker 1: has significantly changed at the u N. It's since Young 693 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,280 Speaker 1: Gas in terms of the actual you know, the legal foundations, 694 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,479 Speaker 1: I mean, the treaties are all still in place. There's 695 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: been one minor tweak too, uh, scheduling of cannabis, which 696 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: is now acknowledged to have some medical uses. But that's 697 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: basically the only thing that's happened. But what has changed 698 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 1: is that more and more states are saying publicly and 699 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: if you publicly, in the u N forum. So these 700 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: are things that would only have been said by Uruguay 701 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,240 Speaker 1: ten years ago, but now you're getting a ten fifteen 702 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:25,439 Speaker 1: countries standing up and saying these treaties are no longer 703 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: fit for purpose, they are not meeting our needs and 704 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 1: they need to be reformed. And more and more countries 705 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: are not just saying there is a need for change 706 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: at u N level, but they are actually just making reforms, 707 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 1: you know, essentially in breach of their technical obligations under 708 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,839 Speaker 1: the treaties. So the water is building behind the dam 709 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: and at some point something has to give. Now exactly 710 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: what the mechanism of that reform will be is unclear, 711 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: but a tipping point will be reached and I think 712 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: we're approaching it fairly soon, particul lee with cannabis, but 713 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: perhaps with the whole treaty framework more broadly, where there 714 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: is just an acknowledgement that the system is no longer 715 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: working and more and more and if it doesn't reform, 716 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 1: it will simply collapse. And it's the treat system. It's 717 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: important to remind people that it doesn't just you know, 718 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 1: enforced prohibition. It also regulates controlled medicines globally, so you 719 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:26,799 Speaker 1: know that the use of opioids and the use of 720 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:32,760 Speaker 1: um various drugs which which can be misused non medically, 721 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: are also regulated by the treatise and that it does 722 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: so it does have an important function that we generally 723 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 1: seek to maintain as well. Steve, there was one other 724 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: historical thing where we're obviously talking and will go more 725 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: into this around cannabis and also was happening now in 726 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: Columbia around cooking cocaine. But there was also this little 727 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: fascinating story that happened in New Zealand some years ago, 728 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 1: right maybe seventy years ago, right where they were struggling 729 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 1: with what to do about the almost synthetic cannabis, and 730 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: where two of the biggest producers of synthetic cannabis essentially 731 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: approached the government said, look, we have a mutual interest 732 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: in your regulating synthetic cannabinoids. We know that our products 733 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: are relatively safe. We don't like all these other you know, 734 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: fly by night operations. Putting out these products can be 735 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 1: quite dangerous. And the result was in New Zealand Parliament 736 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: passing by like a hundred to one margin a law 737 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 1: essentially creating a domestic kind of like FDA Food and 738 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,399 Speaker 1: Drug Administration to regulate drugs that could be sold not 739 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 1: for medical purposes. And there is giving producers corporations the 740 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 1: opportunity to say, we have a product, we want to 741 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,839 Speaker 1: put it on the market for recreational purposes, and if 742 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: we can prove that it's basically got a high margin 743 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: of safety, the government will allow us to do so. 744 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,320 Speaker 1: So New Zealand moves forward with this thing. They passed 745 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: this law. Unfortunately it never gets implemented. But between the 746 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 1: time it gets passed and and enacted and the time 747 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: it never gets him plamented, there must have been some 748 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,360 Speaker 1: reaction in Vienna, in the headquarters of the United Nations. 749 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: You know, narcotic system and you were going to these meetings. 750 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 1: I mean every year, I think you and many others 751 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,760 Speaker 1: were going to the meetings in Vienna than the Commission 752 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: Narcotic Drugs. What was the reaction I mean at that level, 753 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: because that was potentially a model for broader and I mean, 754 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,280 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting that the reaction was incredibly muted because 755 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 1: those synthetic cannabis drugs at the time, we're not controlled 756 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: under the UN conventions. I mean, we we have the 757 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: same There was the same issue, um that countries have domestically, 758 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: which is, you know, as as these novel psychots of 759 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: substances are invented, they have to then get uh you know, 760 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: essentially they have to get banned, they have to get 761 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: scheduled or added added to your the prohibitionist list. And 762 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: that that that does happen at the seat at the 763 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: Commission Narcotic Drugs. Every year a whole bunch of drugs 764 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: are kind of read out and there's votes and they 765 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,760 Speaker 1: all get banned. Um. But at the time they weren't illegal, 766 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,879 Speaker 1: those New Zealand synthetic caind of annoids, and so there 767 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: wasn't really any engagement and and also the UN doesn't 768 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,360 Speaker 1: really didn't really have a mandate to to do anything 769 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: about it until they were um scheduled, and to be scheduled, 770 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 1: countries have to report them and they have to go 771 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: through this process and the w h O has to 772 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 1: produce a report and it all takes quite a long time. 773 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,919 Speaker 1: All of those drugs have subsequently been banned, I should 774 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 1: add now, but by that time what was proposing New 775 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,319 Speaker 1: Zealand had already kind of fallen to be some I mean, 776 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: it's interesting that law did pass in New Zealand and 777 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,239 Speaker 1: they do have this it's still there, it's still on 778 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,880 Speaker 1: the books. They do have this um really quite good 779 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 1: sophisticated regulatory framework, and I did some work on it 780 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: um which it was very welcome in many ways, but 781 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: no drugs ever made it into it. So it's like 782 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 1: it's like this empty shell of a legislation. And one 783 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: of them it was kind of a daft reason in 784 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: the end, because they there to get the toxicology to 785 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: establish the safety limits, you had to do animal testing, 786 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: and they also had another law that said you can't 787 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: do animal testing on on these drugs, so they kind 788 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: of that they just got caught in this sort of 789 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,720 Speaker 1: legislative catch catch twenty two. And you know, I wouldn't 790 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,839 Speaker 1: want to see animal testing done on novel psychoaches substances either, 791 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 1: but it was a bit of a shame that there 792 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 1: wasn't an alternative route. But interestingly, in New Zealand, even 793 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: before the Psychoactive Substances Act in I think it was, 794 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: they did actually have a system put in place a 795 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: few years before that, back in the two thousands, I 796 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 1: think around two thousand and eight, they actually developed a 797 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: regulatory framework for a specific drug called b z p 798 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: which was a kind of kind of crappy, low rent 799 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: stimulant drug, you know, and it was being widely sold 800 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 1: as one of these legal highs, you know, as one 801 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,799 Speaker 1: of these novel psychatist substances that wasn't covered by the law. 802 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: It became really quite popular in New Zealand, and they 803 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: did actually put a regulatory framework and in their legal 804 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,240 Speaker 1: system thought for the regulation of this one specific drug. 805 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: So for a couple of years in New Zealand, and 806 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: this was years before the Psychiatrist substant they did actually 807 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: have a regular framework for the sale of this this 808 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: crappy similant called called b z p um and you know, 809 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 1: it was sold legally and there was, there was there 810 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 1: was you know, quality control, and you had to have 811 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: dosage put on the packaging and a lot of the 812 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: things that we'd like to see. It wasn't brilliant, but 813 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,080 Speaker 1: it was all right, um. And it was actually the 814 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,400 Speaker 1: first that I'm aware of, the first legal regulatory framework 815 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: anywhere in the world for a drug outside of the Conventions, 816 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: there was a still a synthetic stimulant drug. So that 817 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 1: that happened. It then fell foul of some sort of 818 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 1: political shenanigans and was eventually repealed and and and banned 819 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,359 Speaker 1: along with everything else. But New Zealand does have this 820 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: sort of interesting history. And they, of course it was 821 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,640 Speaker 1: only like two years ago they narrowly missed um legalizing 822 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: cannabis by in a national referendum by about you know, 823 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 1: hand a handful of so I think it was about 824 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,759 Speaker 1: half a percentage point that their natural referendum. Sadly they 825 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: just failed on that. So we're obviously kindabis leg legalization 826 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,279 Speaker 1: New Zealand. Not for a few years anyway, but I'm 827 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: sure it will happen some days some day. That was 828 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,680 Speaker 1: one with the Prime Minister once say which way she 829 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: would We wouldn't say whether she was forward or against it, 830 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: and then afterwards said, oh, I voted for it, but 831 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: I don't want to buy it, and I wish I 832 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,839 Speaker 1: wish she'd just said. If she'd said that, probably would 833 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 1: have swung it. But I think it was about sixty votes. 834 00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: In the end, they just narrowly lost. But you know, 835 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: the fact that it even made it to a referendum, 836 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,040 Speaker 1: and the fact that it was that close, um, just 837 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:36,879 Speaker 1: just goes to show how, you know, how far we've 838 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 1: come to Let me just let me just interject, Let 839 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 1: me just interject to say that toughs. When people ask 840 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 1: me about legal legalization, how do I define it? How 841 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,359 Speaker 1: do I distinguish from decriminalization? I say, you know, legalization 842 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,839 Speaker 1: essentially means the legal regulation of this market, like we 843 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,799 Speaker 1: have with alcohol and tobacco products, and so in a way, 844 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: I look at Mexico and South Africans say, well, okay, 845 00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,239 Speaker 1: the courts ruled that way. Um, but until you stually 846 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: have the government legally regulating shops, or at least stores 847 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 1: being up and selling without being even if they're not regulated, 848 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: then being up and selling openly without the police having 849 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,799 Speaker 1: any basis to crack down on them. In Mexico and 850 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:18,200 Speaker 1: South Africa, you still don't have stores popping up openly 851 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:22,880 Speaker 1: selling cannabis products um without fear of any prosecution or arrest, 852 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 1: legal transition state in those limbo but but basically Malta, 853 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,880 Speaker 1: in Malta legally regulated shops quite not quite so, So 854 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,160 Speaker 1: what they did in Malta is interesting in that they 855 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:41,840 Speaker 1: have they have legalized home growing within certain parameters a 856 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,919 Speaker 1: certain number of plants if you follow certain rules, UM, 857 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: and they've legalized um what in Spain is kind of 858 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 1: called cannabis social club, so not for profit cooperatives that 859 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,240 Speaker 1: are membership based, So you can join a membership based 860 00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 1: cooperative and then that that there will be UM specific 861 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,319 Speaker 1: cannabis grown for that cooperative to be supplied to the 862 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 1: members of that cooperative on a not for profit basis. 863 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,200 Speaker 1: But they have not actually opened yet, so they're only 864 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:17,799 Speaker 1: opening for license applications for these nonprofit associations next month, 865 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 1: so that that you can't yet actually go and buy 866 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 1: cannabis anywhere, and even if you wanted to, you'd have 867 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:25,840 Speaker 1: to be a resident of Malta and you'd have to 868 00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,560 Speaker 1: join one of these associations and then you would be 869 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,080 Speaker 1: able to have access to legal cannabis via that route 870 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: unless you were growing your own at home. So they're 871 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,879 Speaker 1: not going to have any actual retail commercial market as 872 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,720 Speaker 1: such a tool and on only these non nonprofit cannabis associations. 873 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 1: So it's kind of an interesting a model, you know. 874 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,920 Speaker 1: It's this is a fascinating time for for drug policy folks, 875 00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: because you're seeing these more commercial models in the US. 876 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,360 Speaker 1: You're seeing kind of these state models in state control 877 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,520 Speaker 1: models like in Uruguay and certain and state control retailing 878 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 1: in places like Quebec in Canada. But now you're seeing 879 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,520 Speaker 1: these European models emerging and this interesting one in Malta 880 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 1: whether it isn't going to be a commercial retail market 881 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:13,120 Speaker 1: at all, only homegrowing and not profit association. So we're 882 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,160 Speaker 1: gonna just give me really interesting to see see what 883 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,440 Speaker 1: works and what doesn't work with with these models. With 884 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,120 Speaker 1: you know, what can we learn from the countries that 885 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,880 Speaker 1: follow in their footsteps. Well, No, Uruguay was kind of interesting, 886 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,719 Speaker 1: right because they did is basically a tripartite model right 887 00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,160 Speaker 1: where they said basically you can grow your own up 888 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,200 Speaker 1: to a certain point, which is a core element of 889 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,600 Speaker 1: what's going on in the US. Then they did some 890 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,479 Speaker 1: of the Spanish Canada's social club model, so people could 891 00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,760 Speaker 1: have a kind of cooperative where people remember and somebody 892 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,440 Speaker 1: would grow for the group. And then they did a 893 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,080 Speaker 1: pharmacy sort of distribution model. And now that's been going 894 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:50,879 Speaker 1: on for about almost at seven eight years now, Um, 895 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,120 Speaker 1: I mean, how is it working out? And and are 896 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,240 Speaker 1: we seeing a lot of I mean, is the pharmacy 897 00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,280 Speaker 1: the principal source? What's happened with the black market there? 898 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,960 Speaker 1: I mean the black market that the illegal market is 899 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:09,200 Speaker 1: certainly contracted, but interestingly the pharmacy sales, which were probably 900 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:11,719 Speaker 1: too restrictive, and they have not actually turned out to 901 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,520 Speaker 1: be the predominant supply model. So far more people obtain 902 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,719 Speaker 1: their cannabis through home growing or through the not for 903 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,480 Speaker 1: profit social clubs done via the pharmacies. And I think 904 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 1: the problem really with the pharmacies was that they were 905 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 1: just too restrictive. You have to register as a registered 906 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:38,600 Speaker 1: buyer to get a kind of like you know, digital 907 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,040 Speaker 1: pass code things so that you can act you can 908 00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,440 Speaker 1: buy a certain amount each month, and the cannabis that 909 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 1: they sell is quite low potency, certainly by American standards. 910 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:53,239 Speaker 1: I think you can get seven percent and nine th HC, 911 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,959 Speaker 1: which a lot of people would regard as too low 912 00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,359 Speaker 1: or that if you're used to K plus t HC cannabis, 913 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,759 Speaker 1: you probably guard that is too weak. I think they're 914 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:06,799 Speaker 1: looking to now introduce a stronger strain of around fift um. 915 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,120 Speaker 1: But it was non branded. There was only these two 916 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,000 Speaker 1: varieties you could get to these two potencies, and you 917 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,400 Speaker 1: could only get it from a relatively small number of 918 00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,279 Speaker 1: pharmacies um and you had to buy in person, so 919 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,839 Speaker 1: you couldn't do mail order delivery. So for people who 920 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,839 Speaker 1: weren't near one of these pharmacies, it was actually pretty inaccessible, 921 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,200 Speaker 1: and a lot of people were turned off from using this. 922 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:26,960 Speaker 1: You know, they didn't want to register with the government 923 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:31,120 Speaker 1: as someone who uses cannabis, but kind of unsurprising obvious 924 00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,200 Speaker 1: reasons people don't want to be on a government database 925 00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:36,960 Speaker 1: as people who use cannabis, given given you know, the 926 00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,680 Speaker 1: history of the War on drugs and persecution of cannabis users. 927 00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:45,560 Speaker 1: So actually about ten times more cannabis is consumed from 928 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,600 Speaker 1: homegrow and the social clubs than actually the pharmacy sales model, 929 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:51,880 Speaker 1: which suggests to me that the pharmacy sales model was 930 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 1: too restrictive. I think you probably. You know, even for 931 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,160 Speaker 1: someone like me who I know Ethan, you're always teasing 932 00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 1: me about being a hyper regulator. Um, I think overcooked it. 933 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I was involved in making proposals and helping 934 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: design some of this, but you know, we were arguing. 935 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:08,480 Speaker 1: I was down there with Lisa Sanchez, who's now the 936 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,839 Speaker 1: director of um muc D in Mexico, and we were saying, look, 937 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 1: that's just too it's too restrictive. You know, if you're 938 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,759 Speaker 1: having a registry of buyers, people aren't just aren't going 939 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:20,480 Speaker 1: to be into it. And I think we were proved 940 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,160 Speaker 1: right because it just hasn't proved as popular, I think 941 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,600 Speaker 1: as they're expecting, and people were much more drawn to 942 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,920 Speaker 1: the idea of these um social clubs and homegrown models 943 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:30,960 Speaker 1: because they don't. They don't. They just didn't want to 944 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,080 Speaker 1: be in the system. They didn't want that. They were 945 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,480 Speaker 1: worried about surveillance and private But it does seem though 946 00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,640 Speaker 1: there there, for example, the the import from Paraguay had 947 00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,320 Speaker 1: dropped rammatically though that people are getting if they're getting 948 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,520 Speaker 1: it illusively, they're getting it diverted. They're getting it from 949 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,239 Speaker 1: home growths, from friends, or from social clubs or what 950 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,200 Speaker 1: have you understand that the stuff that was coming in 951 00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,600 Speaker 1: from Paraguay was pretty terrible quality staff lots of sticks 952 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,680 Speaker 1: and seeds, and it was very low potency, and it 953 00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,440 Speaker 1: often had pesticides on it. It It was it was pretty 954 00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,160 Speaker 1: crappy weed, really, And so the stuff that was being produced, 955 00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,880 Speaker 1: even the low poesy pharmacy stuff UM, and certainly the 956 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,680 Speaker 1: stuff from the social clubs was just far far better 957 00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,239 Speaker 1: and it but it was coming in at kind of 958 00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,040 Speaker 1: the same price. So the Paraguay imports um and that 959 00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:19,440 Speaker 1: whole market yet collapse, and that that's an undoubted positive 960 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 1: in terms of reducing the scale of that the illegal market. Said, 961 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,160 Speaker 1: to that extent, it's been a success. I think in 962 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,040 Speaker 1: public health terms, it's been regarded as success. Youth use, 963 00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,879 Speaker 1: which is obviously always a focus of these debates, has 964 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,720 Speaker 1: has you know, either stayed level or in many cases 965 00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,040 Speaker 1: gone down. There certainly hasn't been a jump in levels 966 00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,440 Speaker 1: of use. Adult use has gone up a bit, a 967 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,359 Speaker 1: bit like it has in some other legalization places. But 968 00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,960 Speaker 1: you know, the the the much dreaded explosion in cannabis use, 969 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:52,120 Speaker 1: and you know, armies of child cannabis zombies walking streets. 970 00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:56,359 Speaker 1: None of that none of that stuff happened. Let's take 971 00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:11,759 Speaker 1: a break here and go to an egg. So Steve, 972 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:13,799 Speaker 1: we've been friends for twenty years. When it comes to 973 00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,880 Speaker 1: thinking about legal regulation, we're actually pretty on the big picture. 974 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,040 Speaker 1: We're pretty much on the same page that you have 975 00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,240 Speaker 1: to find ways of balancing public health and public safety 976 00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:27,920 Speaker 1: and maximizing tax revenue but protecting young people, and you know, 977 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,439 Speaker 1: respecting what communities want to do in terms of where 978 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,680 Speaker 1: things can be sold and limiting advertising and all this 979 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But when it push comes to shove, 980 00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:38,480 Speaker 1: we also get into it. And Steve likes to tease 981 00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:41,560 Speaker 1: me calling me a libertarian, which of course I am not. 982 00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:44,680 Speaker 1: I'm a civil libertarian, but I'm certainly my politics lean 983 00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,320 Speaker 1: left of center. And I like to tease him about 984 00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,000 Speaker 1: being a hyper regulating socialist, which of course is probably 985 00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,719 Speaker 1: more true than anything accuses me of being. UM. But 986 00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,160 Speaker 1: that's it. Steve and I were recently in late two 987 00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,279 Speaker 1: at a gathering in the US UM that was very 988 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:03,120 Speaker 1: focused on issues of social equity and racial equity and 989 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,279 Speaker 1: how to prevent the growing concentration UM in the marijuana 990 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,560 Speaker 1: in the cannabis industry in the U s and elsewhere. 991 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:11,960 Speaker 1: But I mean, Steve, remember I remember teasing you at 992 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,520 Speaker 1: this thing, because a couple of interesting things were coming 993 00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:16,200 Speaker 1: out of this. One is there were people not just 994 00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,640 Speaker 1: from the U S there, but from about a dozen countries, 995 00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,840 Speaker 1: and not just you know, Europe, but the Africa, the Caribbean, 996 00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:25,560 Speaker 1: Latin America. And the first kind of you know, kind 997 00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:30,280 Speaker 1: of realization that hit that the people coming from Caribbean, Africa, 998 00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:34,160 Speaker 1: Latin America, it suddenly occurred to them that they were 999 00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,200 Speaker 1: looking at the US as a potential market for them 1000 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,120 Speaker 1: to be exploring their cannabis too, but that all the 1001 00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:42,320 Speaker 1: folks in the US were going, well, wait a second, 1002 00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,239 Speaker 1: we don't want any exports. We want this to be 1003 00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:47,520 Speaker 1: all domestic driven. We want to help our small growers. 1004 00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,280 Speaker 1: And the second thing that was interesting was that some 1005 00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,920 Speaker 1: of the activists and small cannabis business owners there, you know, 1006 00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,919 Speaker 1: people of color running small marijuana businesses. If you close 1007 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,520 Speaker 1: with your eyes and listen to them talking about the 1008 00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:07,439 Speaker 1: challenges they confronted, what jumped out at me was that 1009 00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:12,760 Speaker 1: here were women of color running small businesses, caring about equity. 1010 00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,120 Speaker 1: But for the first six key percent of their comments, 1011 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:20,160 Speaker 1: they could have been a Trump loving small businessman Republican 1012 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,920 Speaker 1: right complaining about over taxation, over regulation and realizing that 1013 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,080 Speaker 1: what was killing not you know, you can hear the 1014 00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,600 Speaker 1: big eyes, the multi state operators, what we call the 1015 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,360 Speaker 1: bigger cannabis organizations that have operations and lots of states, 1016 00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,440 Speaker 1: complaining about over taxation, over regulation, but to hear the 1017 00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,760 Speaker 1: little guys saying it and sounding like even if our 1018 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,200 Speaker 1: politics on the left and we care about equity, this 1019 00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,240 Speaker 1: is a major problem. And I wonder Steve in that meeting, 1020 00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:47,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, you know, you've been a big 1021 00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:51,000 Speaker 1: advocate for high levels of regulation, taxation and all this 1022 00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,240 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. I mean, was there an aha moment 1023 00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:57,320 Speaker 1: for you there or anything surprising that jumped out at 1024 00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:00,680 Speaker 1: you there? Yeah. I mean, well, one of the other 1025 00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:02,080 Speaker 1: things that came out was that there was a lot 1026 00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,800 Speaker 1: of fear of federal regulation, a federal legalization, which I 1027 00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,120 Speaker 1: was I was kind of surprised at, but I think 1028 00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,160 Speaker 1: there was a I mean, one of the interesting things 1029 00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,480 Speaker 1: I think about the US, the way it's unfolded in 1030 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:17,800 Speaker 1: the US, is that because um regulation of cannabis is 1031 00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,360 Speaker 1: operated within states. I mean, you can't have trade between states, 1032 00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,680 Speaker 1: you can have multi state operators, but they have to operate, 1033 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, within each state. So you've had these kind 1034 00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,840 Speaker 1: of now twenty one, I think it is small scale, 1035 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:32,720 Speaker 1: not small scales. Some of them are quite big scale. 1036 00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:35,000 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously California is huge, but you've had these 1037 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:40,200 Speaker 1: kind of like islands of island industries that they can't 1038 00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:43,680 Speaker 1: trade with each other. But if if federal legalization opens 1039 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,640 Speaker 1: that up, I think there was a lot of fear 1040 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,320 Speaker 1: of kind of um corporate consolidation and you would get 1041 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,560 Speaker 1: these big kind of corporate players and the and the 1042 00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,120 Speaker 1: the smaller medium sized market actors wouldn't be able to 1043 00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,480 Speaker 1: compete with them um on in a national or in 1044 00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,160 Speaker 1: the future international market and they would just get gobbled 1045 00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:05,240 Speaker 1: up or kind of brushed aside. And I think there 1046 00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,760 Speaker 1: is there was a very legitimate concern about that UM 1047 00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,240 Speaker 1: and didn't really come up with that many answers at 1048 00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,520 Speaker 1: anythink because it's quite difficult. I mean, I think that 1049 00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:18,040 Speaker 1: there there are potential answers, but it would be it's 1050 00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:21,760 Speaker 1: important to try and protect the interests of the smaller 1051 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,760 Speaker 1: and smaller medium sized businesses to prevent the emergence of 1052 00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,880 Speaker 1: oligopolies and monopolies who could sort of distort the market 1053 00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:34,000 Speaker 1: and consolidate the market in ways that I think would 1054 00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:38,240 Speaker 1: reduce diversity and reduce social social equity. But there was 1055 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:42,160 Speaker 1: also concerns that there was about legal legal federal legalization 1056 00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,000 Speaker 1: having an impact on some of the really cool social 1057 00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,360 Speaker 1: equity programs that have been set up at state level 1058 00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,160 Speaker 1: and that that you know, we are seeing these things 1059 00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,560 Speaker 1: in Massachusetts and now New York and New Jersey and 1060 00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:57,280 Speaker 1: Illinois and a number of other states, really incredible social 1061 00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,640 Speaker 1: lexuity programs that would you know, give licensing reference to 1062 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,720 Speaker 1: social equity candidates from impact to communities, that would provide 1063 01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,640 Speaker 1: grants and support um that would you know, could could 1064 01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:13,600 Speaker 1: really help h build and and support people who from 1065 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,320 Speaker 1: impact to communities to participate in these markets in a meaningful, 1066 01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:20,800 Speaker 1: kind of equal way. That the federal legalization could kind 1067 01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,360 Speaker 1: of undermine a lot of those efforts if it's not 1068 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,480 Speaker 1: done in a in a thoughtful way that respects the 1069 01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:29,440 Speaker 1: interests of some these states state social equity programs. So 1070 01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,360 Speaker 1: I was very struck by that. But I think the 1071 01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,840 Speaker 1: point you made Ethan about the international markets, I think 1072 01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,280 Speaker 1: that's that was really important because even the people who 1073 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,120 Speaker 1: well actually steve before we get into the international market thing. 1074 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:41,640 Speaker 1: I just want to say, you know, since I and 1075 01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,880 Speaker 1: my callings were deeply involved in the drafting of many 1076 01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,640 Speaker 1: of the medical merial one in the mirror Metroan legalization, 1077 01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:49,720 Speaker 1: you know statutes, we look at what you know, what 1078 01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:54,240 Speaker 1: we were involved in California are again I mean, obviously 1079 01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,000 Speaker 1: we're learning a lot from that. You see in California 1080 01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,760 Speaker 1: vast or illicit market. They continues, you know, because of 1081 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,880 Speaker 1: over taxation, over regulation, and a host of other variables. 1082 01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:07,320 Speaker 1: So the question about when I look at some of 1083 01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,120 Speaker 1: your writing and your blueprints, right, they still have a 1084 01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:14,760 Speaker 1: strong regulatory on you know, a strong relatory thing and 1085 01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:16,880 Speaker 1: tax and all this. Do you think that when you 1086 01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:20,560 Speaker 1: come out with your you know, fourth edition of regulating cannabis, 1087 01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:22,640 Speaker 1: how do you think it will be different in terms 1088 01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,479 Speaker 1: of what you see happening on the ground in many 1089 01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:29,160 Speaker 1: of these estates and countries. You know, if you if you, 1090 01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:32,479 Speaker 1: if you if you read what we've we we've we've 1091 01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:34,920 Speaker 1: said ethan and I know you have done it. It's 1092 01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:36,960 Speaker 1: it's I hope it's a bit more nuance. I mean, 1093 01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:41,320 Speaker 1: I would prefer to have um, you know, localized or 1094 01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:44,960 Speaker 1: and social controls and social norms dictating a lot of 1095 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,960 Speaker 1: the things that we that we we talk about, But 1096 01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:51,600 Speaker 1: what we've said is we think that as a starting point, 1097 01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,560 Speaker 1: you should err on the side of a more restrictive, 1098 01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:59,360 Speaker 1: more heavily regulated model, and then over time, as things 1099 01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:02,840 Speaker 1: are shown to be working okay, which bits are working, 1100 01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:05,760 Speaker 1: which bits aren't, you can then relax things. What I 1101 01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:08,280 Speaker 1: think is problematic is if you start with a very 1102 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:13,520 Speaker 1: open market, a very maybe unregulated or underregulated market, it 1103 01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:18,480 Speaker 1: becomes it's much harder than to impose restrictions or regulations 1104 01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,240 Speaker 1: if things aren't if things aren't working, And we've seen 1105 01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:23,120 Speaker 1: that without con tobacco. I mean, you know, you look 1106 01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:26,920 Speaker 1: at tobacco now, particularly in Europe, but also in the US. 1107 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,320 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's been a decades long battle to 1108 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,840 Speaker 1: try and impose better regulation on tobacco in terms of 1109 01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:36,160 Speaker 1: marketing controls and in terms of information on packaging, and 1110 01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,840 Speaker 1: in terms of you know, smoking in public spaces and 1111 01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,520 Speaker 1: so on. When you've got when you've got a multibillion 1112 01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:48,080 Speaker 1: dollar entrenched industry lobbying against regulation, it's much harder to 1113 01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:51,959 Speaker 1: pursue public health goals in that context. So our view 1114 01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:54,840 Speaker 1: is that you you you start with a sort of 1115 01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,720 Speaker 1: public health regulation model, um and and and try and 1116 01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,600 Speaker 1: learn lessons from some of the failings about con tobacco, 1117 01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:03,800 Speaker 1: and if things are shown to be working, then you 1118 01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:05,840 Speaker 1: relax it afterwards rather than trying to do it the 1119 01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,360 Speaker 1: other way around. So I'm not I'm not think of it. 1120 01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:11,360 Speaker 1: I'm not a hyper regulator just because I just love 1121 01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:15,640 Speaker 1: regulating stuff. I get it. But and I basically agree 1122 01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,680 Speaker 1: and and the issue about corporate capture when big alpha 1123 01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:21,000 Speaker 1: big tobacco, can you know, keep the taxes low and 1124 01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,280 Speaker 1: the regulations low for a long period of time. But 1125 01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:26,720 Speaker 1: to play devil's advocate on this stuff, right, It's also 1126 01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:29,080 Speaker 1: the case that if what you're trying to do to 1127 01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:32,840 Speaker 1: some extent is transition quickly from the illicit market, from 1128 01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:36,800 Speaker 1: the majority of the industry being illicit to being legally regulated, 1129 01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:39,920 Speaker 1: you want to have a low taxation policy, right. You 1130 01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,920 Speaker 1: want to find ways to induce people, you know, to 1131 01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,840 Speaker 1: shift from both consumers and producers to shift into different 1132 01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:50,560 Speaker 1: It comes back to what you were this idea of balance. 1133 01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:52,560 Speaker 1: And one of the issue one of the challenges we 1134 01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:54,960 Speaker 1: have when we have these policy debates, when we're designing 1135 01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:58,040 Speaker 1: regulatory frameworks is that you have a range of different 1136 01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:02,000 Speaker 1: stakeholders who have different priorities ease, and sometimes those priorities 1137 01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:04,440 Speaker 1: are in confit of each other. And public health people generally, 1138 01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,160 Speaker 1: and tobacco tax is a good example of this. Public 1139 01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,760 Speaker 1: health people generally want to have lots of tax keep 1140 01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:12,960 Speaker 1: the prices of these things high, because most economic analysis 1141 01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,680 Speaker 1: shows if you put the price up, people will consume less. 1142 01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:17,880 Speaker 1: And we've certainly seen that with tobacco. As you as 1143 01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:21,920 Speaker 1: you ramp up the tobacco taxes, use generally goes down. 1144 01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:26,800 Speaker 1: But what it also does is it incentivizes illegal market activity. 1145 01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:31,120 Speaker 1: Now with tobacco, that's generally smuggling from lower tax regimes 1146 01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:34,320 Speaker 1: and selling it in high tax regimes, but some counterfeiting. 1147 01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:36,600 Speaker 1: But with cannabis, it means that you have a parallel 1148 01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:40,200 Speaker 1: legal market that will seek to undercut the higher price, 1149 01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:44,600 Speaker 1: higher taxed um cannabis products. And you know there's a 1150 01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,120 Speaker 1: tension there. You have a tension between the need to 1151 01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:52,440 Speaker 1: a desire or a priority to dissuade use or certainly 1152 01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:54,800 Speaker 1: not encourage used by having low prices and dissuade us 1153 01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:58,360 Speaker 1: by having high prices, versus a desire from people who 1154 01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:02,600 Speaker 1: prioritize criminal justice outcome to minimize the illegal market. And 1155 01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:04,960 Speaker 1: there's no perfect answer to that. We just have to 1156 01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:07,160 Speaker 1: decide what our priorities are and try and strike the 1157 01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:10,400 Speaker 1: right balance, acknowledging that you know, you can't you can't 1158 01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:14,439 Speaker 1: have it all. Different stakeholders have different priorities, and that 1159 01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:16,560 Speaker 1: the problem, I think is, and you've touched on this 1160 01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,320 Speaker 1: with the corporate captive thing, is that you know, corporate 1161 01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:24,440 Speaker 1: actors and commercial actors whose primary goal is essentially profit generation, 1162 01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:28,760 Speaker 1: they all have a series of um, you know, regulatory 1163 01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:31,760 Speaker 1: goals that may be out odds with the public health goals. 1164 01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:34,840 Speaker 1: You know that they are seeking to make money and 1165 01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:38,120 Speaker 1: not to protect public health. I'm not saying all corporate 1166 01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:41,000 Speaker 1: actors are totally uninterested in public health and and other 1167 01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:44,400 Speaker 1: things like sustainability and social justice, but generally speaking, they 1168 01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:49,760 Speaker 1: will prioritize, you know, corporate profits over those other social 1169 01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:53,800 Speaker 1: health and you know, sustainability goals, and there you have attention. 1170 01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,200 Speaker 1: And if they become very powerful, and if you do 1171 01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,040 Speaker 1: get consolidation, and if you do have these billion dollar 1172 01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:03,440 Speaker 1: corporations you know, flooding the hill with their lobbyists and 1173 01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:06,280 Speaker 1: all the rest of it, it becomes very difficult for 1174 01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,440 Speaker 1: social justice advocates who don't have the same access to 1175 01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,120 Speaker 1: that kind of political and media and sort of publicity 1176 01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,640 Speaker 1: capital and lobby and capital, and you know, pr budgets 1177 01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:17,760 Speaker 1: to compete with them and it becomes very difficult. And 1178 01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:23,160 Speaker 1: I actually think it's huge credit to the non government 1179 01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:26,800 Speaker 1: organizations that they have been able to you know, hold 1180 01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:30,040 Speaker 1: their own against some of these corporate voices on the market. 1181 01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:32,080 Speaker 1: You know that whether it's a Drug Policy Alliance or 1182 01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:36,600 Speaker 1: Transform or people like Sharlie Title at the Parabolus Center, UM, 1183 01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, who are making the argument, you know, critical 1184 01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:42,640 Speaker 1: of of of corporate capture and critical of some of 1185 01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:46,880 Speaker 1: the kind of over commercialization UM, that they are able 1186 01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:49,720 Speaker 1: to hold their own against these corporations that have these 1187 01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:54,000 Speaker 1: gigantic budgets, and you know they are actually funding front 1188 01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:56,760 Speaker 1: organizations like cep here. I can't even want cep here 1189 01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:59,880 Speaker 1: as an anagram for cannabis. It's got you know, basic, 1190 01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,840 Speaker 1: it's it's funded by the alcohol and tobacco industry as 1191 01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:07,120 Speaker 1: to promote cannabis legalization that is shaped in in the 1192 01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:11,040 Speaker 1: interests of the ALCN tobacco industry who want to you know, 1193 01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:13,480 Speaker 1: move in and profit on on that new industry, and 1194 01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:16,320 Speaker 1: it's really important that we pushed back against that because 1195 01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,720 Speaker 1: if you have Alcohn tobacco industry money and big corporate 1196 01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:24,840 Speaker 1: money guiding the legislation at this early stage, at federal 1197 01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:28,800 Speaker 1: legislation and state legislation, it will be made in their interests, 1198 01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:31,240 Speaker 1: in the interests of corporate profits, and not in the interests, 1199 01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:34,160 Speaker 1: to quote the U entreaties of the health and well 1200 01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:38,480 Speaker 1: being of of you know, humankind. And that's a big concern, 1201 01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:42,560 Speaker 1: and that's something I have to say. It is complicated, 1202 01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:44,720 Speaker 1: remember as this meaning that you're ira both there and 1203 01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:46,520 Speaker 1: I'm asking, so what are the models? Has More and 1204 01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:49,200 Speaker 1: more states are embracing more of a you know, trying 1205 01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:52,240 Speaker 1: to give a headstart and a leg up and assistance 1206 01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:55,760 Speaker 1: to the nine big players, you know, especially to people 1207 01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:59,760 Speaker 1: of color, to veterans, to women, two people who have 1208 01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,360 Speaker 1: uh you know, remarkably people who have had a marijuana 1209 01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,680 Speaker 1: conviction getting getting a head start on getting an opportunity 1210 01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:07,720 Speaker 1: to get a license. And if you ask, well, so 1211 01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:09,960 Speaker 1: what are the best models out there right now? And 1212 01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:12,600 Speaker 1: the sense I god for some of the conversations was 1213 01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:14,720 Speaker 1: that there were two models out there. One was a 1214 01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:18,000 Speaker 1: limited one in Oakland, California with a fairly progressive government 1215 01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:21,200 Speaker 1: that seems to have found some way to provide you know, 1216 01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:27,040 Speaker 1: kind of equity preferences. But the other one, fascinatingly was Oklahoma, right, 1217 01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:30,200 Speaker 1: one of the reddest states in America, which is legalized 1218 01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:33,639 Speaker 1: medical marijuana, and it's now a wild West out there 1219 01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:38,160 Speaker 1: with almost no regulation. People growers from California moving to Oklahoma, 1220 01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:41,559 Speaker 1: Oklahoma illegally supplying you know, beginning to supply the rest 1221 01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:44,120 Speaker 1: of the country. But what's the case there is it's 1222 01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:47,040 Speaker 1: probably one of the least regulated states in the country. 1223 01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,200 Speaker 1: One result of which is that anybody can spend like 1224 01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:52,639 Speaker 1: two grand or something to get a license, can open 1225 01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,240 Speaker 1: up a medical cannabis shop, and it's very easy to 1226 01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:58,719 Speaker 1: get a medical cannabis I date. But the result is 1227 01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:01,080 Speaker 1: is if if you go I'm told, if you go 1228 01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:04,920 Speaker 1: into a black neighborhood, IDEs are pretty good there's gonna 1229 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:08,120 Speaker 1: be some black guy from the community who's got the 1230 01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:10,760 Speaker 1: local dispensary. Right, So there are ways in which the 1231 01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:15,160 Speaker 1: kind of very low regulation sometimes can advantage to small 1232 01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:17,200 Speaker 1: guys as well, at least so long as we don't 1233 01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:20,840 Speaker 1: have federal legalization. I mean, you know, I'm not looking 1234 01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:25,320 Speaker 1: at that generally. I I frown on that levels of 1235 01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:28,639 Speaker 1: regulation like that, But that's not that I don't want, um, 1236 01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:31,599 Speaker 1: you know, people who don't have access to significant amounts 1237 01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:33,800 Speaker 1: of capital to be able to participate in the market, 1238 01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:36,320 Speaker 1: I really do. I just think you have to use 1239 01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:39,360 Speaker 1: your equity models to support them. So you have other 1240 01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:43,000 Speaker 1: other states have grant programs and you know, interest free 1241 01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:47,439 Speaker 1: loan programs and training programs to help people, you know, 1242 01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:50,960 Speaker 1: enable them to compete on a more even playing field 1243 01:09:51,280 --> 01:09:53,640 Speaker 1: with some of the more established actors. And you know 1244 01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:57,200 Speaker 1: the New York. New York just issued its first thirty 1245 01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,400 Speaker 1: eight or thirty six, thirty eight licenses I think last months, 1246 01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:03,760 Speaker 1: and they all to social equity candidates. Eight of them 1247 01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:07,240 Speaker 1: were to nonprofit actors, which I just think is absolutely amazing. 1248 01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:12,200 Speaker 1: And of the tax revenue from the new legal cannabis 1249 01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:14,599 Speaker 1: market in New York is going to go back into 1250 01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:18,200 Speaker 1: impacted communities in terms of social programs, which I also 1251 01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:23,439 Speaker 1: think is amazing. In in New Jersey, it's see, the 1252 01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:26,760 Speaker 1: tax revenue is going to be reinvested in impacted communities. Now, 1253 01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:29,320 Speaker 1: if you think about it, that is really amazing. That's 1254 01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:33,200 Speaker 1: really amazing. In the US to have seventy of the 1255 01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:38,479 Speaker 1: tax revenue in in an emerging market be reinvested in 1256 01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:41,160 Speaker 1: UH communities that have been disproportionately impacted by the War 1257 01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:43,800 Speaker 1: on drugs. I think that's absolutely remarkable. It it it does 1258 01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:49,400 Speaker 1: bring up some real challenges of capitalism and how how 1259 01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:53,439 Speaker 1: how states will I mean look, and I also have 1260 01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:55,960 Speaker 1: a kind of a whole panoply of views on this 1261 01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:58,880 Speaker 1: under went and very proud. I mean, California, which we 1262 01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,559 Speaker 1: played a major role into acting in twenties sixteen, has 1263 01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:04,840 Speaker 1: not really pioneered some of these provisions about directing tax 1264 01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:07,360 Speaker 1: revenue to the communities that have been most harmed, about 1265 01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:11,080 Speaker 1: giving certain assistance to you know, basically equity actors to 1266 01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:13,600 Speaker 1: get involved in this industry. And you know, obviously it 1267 01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,040 Speaker 1: was my success as a drug policy Alliance who drove 1268 01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:18,960 Speaker 1: the New York legalization model. So in that sense, it's 1269 01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:21,519 Speaker 1: very you know, I feel quite proud of what's happened. 1270 01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:24,880 Speaker 1: But then I asked myself, m if your number one 1271 01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:27,760 Speaker 1: objective is increasing the amount of tax revenue that's going 1272 01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:30,320 Speaker 1: to go to communities that were harmed, you want this 1273 01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:33,840 Speaker 1: industry to grow quickly, right, But the slower you roll 1274 01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:36,960 Speaker 1: it out, the less tax revenue that there's going to 1275 01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:41,160 Speaker 1: be that. Secondly, the more regulation you have, the harder 1276 01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:43,560 Speaker 1: it's going to be. I mean, one thing that advantages 1277 01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:45,479 Speaker 1: the big players and all of this is that they 1278 01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:48,759 Speaker 1: have expertise in dealing with government regular relation, They have lawyers, 1279 01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:51,200 Speaker 1: they've often come from other industries where they've been involved 1280 01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:54,000 Speaker 1: in this, whereas if you're starting up or you've previously 1281 01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,200 Speaker 1: been involved in the illegal side of the industry and 1282 01:11:56,280 --> 01:12:00,760 Speaker 1: not had you know, any any interaction with government regulators, 1283 01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:04,280 Speaker 1: right then basically these are all barriers to the small 1284 01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:07,040 Speaker 1: guys getting better, and it depends on the regulation model. 1285 01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:09,760 Speaker 1: So you know, you that this is one of the 1286 01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:14,320 Speaker 1: really beautiful and exciting things about cannabis legalization. Regulation is that, 1287 01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:18,799 Speaker 1: you know, we get to design the market structure from scratch, 1288 01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:23,920 Speaker 1: and we can make decisions around who participates, how and when, 1289 01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:28,600 Speaker 1: and you can preference smaller actors. You can restrict participation 1290 01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:32,600 Speaker 1: of bigger actors. You can prevent you know, um emergence. 1291 01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:35,200 Speaker 1: You can limit the number of licenses that anyone actor 1292 01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:39,120 Speaker 1: can have. You can support and do preferential licensing for 1293 01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:43,240 Speaker 1: particular communities or participants. You can make these decisions, and 1294 01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:46,200 Speaker 1: you can reshape the markets in all kinds of interesting ways. 1295 01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:49,960 Speaker 1: And you know, I genuinely think that it may have 1296 01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:53,599 Speaker 1: impact on other markets and nothing to do with cannabis, 1297 01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:56,559 Speaker 1: because you know, imagine if you had sev the tax 1298 01:12:56,600 --> 01:13:02,160 Speaker 1: revenue from I don't know oil being directed into environmental 1299 01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, cause, environmental sustainability. This is you know, I 1300 01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:08,519 Speaker 1: don't want to I don't want to be sort of 1301 01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:13,080 Speaker 1: ridiculously evangelic and idealistic about this, but these things do 1302 01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:17,879 Speaker 1: have the potential to help reshape how we think about markets, 1303 01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:24,200 Speaker 1: um and commerce and entrepreneurship and you know, community participation 1304 01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:26,880 Speaker 1: in a in a much broader way. I'd love to 1305 01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:31,120 Speaker 1: see some of these really innovative, amazing cannabis reforms having 1306 01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:35,280 Speaker 1: a kind of ripple knock on effect far beyond drug markets. 1307 01:13:35,479 --> 01:13:37,160 Speaker 1: Well we'll see. I mean, I would like to see 1308 01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:39,759 Speaker 1: that happened too. There's also a major difference though, between 1309 01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:42,280 Speaker 1: talking about where the tax revenue is directed to on 1310 01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:45,480 Speaker 1: the one hand, and how one is going to regulate 1311 01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:47,800 Speaker 1: or create opportunities and the interest on the other, And 1312 01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:50,240 Speaker 1: to some extents there can even be a conflict between 1313 01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:53,080 Speaker 1: those two things. It's nice to think that this could 1314 01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:55,120 Speaker 1: become a model for the future, and that it could 1315 01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:58,559 Speaker 1: even survive federal legalization. On the other hand, we do 1316 01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:01,880 Speaker 1: know that there is an overall whelming force behind basically 1317 01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:05,639 Speaker 1: the basic nature of capitalism, right capitalism, you know especially, 1318 01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:07,800 Speaker 1: I mean, look, even we look about, you know, the 1319 01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:11,080 Speaker 1: illegal markets, those are kind of capitalism and its rowst form. 1320 01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:13,679 Speaker 1: But when we look at legal capitalism and the different 1321 01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:19,200 Speaker 1: varieties of capitalism, some social welfare capitalism to chrony capitalism, 1322 01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:22,360 Speaker 1: to free market capitalism to kleptocratic capitalism, I mean, most 1323 01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:25,040 Speaker 1: of the world is essentially capitalists. And we also tend 1324 01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:29,160 Speaker 1: to see that some movement towards concentration inevitably happens in 1325 01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:31,880 Speaker 1: most industries. So let me bring this down to a 1326 01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:35,120 Speaker 1: very concrete example. You are an advisor and you've played 1327 01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:38,320 Speaker 1: a role in Canada. Now, Canada doesn't have the types 1328 01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:40,320 Speaker 1: of state controls I mean in the same way of 1329 01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:43,120 Speaker 1: limitations that we have in the US. You do have 1330 01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,240 Speaker 1: more of a national model in Canada. And what's your 1331 01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:49,599 Speaker 1: take about how Canada is evolving and what lessons can 1332 01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:52,439 Speaker 1: be learned for better or words from what's happened in Canada. Well, 1333 01:14:52,479 --> 01:14:55,960 Speaker 1: I mean that that the state controls are over supply 1334 01:14:56,240 --> 01:15:00,639 Speaker 1: and trade. The individual provinces the princial controls. I should 1335 01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:05,320 Speaker 1: say that the individual provinces, um, they they regulate retail. 1336 01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:09,200 Speaker 1: And you do have this quite interesting variation between the 1337 01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:13,200 Speaker 1: provinces in terms of several of the provinces have government 1338 01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:16,679 Speaker 1: monopolies on the retail. So Quebec perhaps most high profile, 1339 01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:18,679 Speaker 1: I think, I can't remember the other one in New Brunswick, 1340 01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:20,599 Speaker 1: I think, and a couple of them have a mix 1341 01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:26,840 Speaker 1: of government stores and you know, conventional commercial stores, and 1342 01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:29,759 Speaker 1: so there is actually quite an interesting amount of variations. 1343 01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:33,280 Speaker 1: Some of them have different age access um, and some 1344 01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:37,280 Speaker 1: of them, like in Quebec, also they don't allow certain edibles. 1345 01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:42,120 Speaker 1: They don't allow the gummies and candy based edibles. So 1346 01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,519 Speaker 1: again we have this quite fascinating sort of laboratory of 1347 01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:48,040 Speaker 1: change where you can look at you, okay, what's working 1348 01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:49,960 Speaker 1: in in each one. I mean, I think if you 1349 01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:53,519 Speaker 1: look at the Canada, generally, I would say generally it's 1350 01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:55,719 Speaker 1: been a reasonable success if you look at the public 1351 01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:58,439 Speaker 1: health outcomes, if you look at the tax revenue. UM, 1352 01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:01,559 Speaker 1: I think there was certainly a problem with the big 1353 01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:06,240 Speaker 1: corporate corporate corporates have kind of collapsed in value. There 1354 01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:09,360 Speaker 1: was probably a bit of a bubble into an investor bubble, 1355 01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:14,320 Speaker 1: which then collapsed um and the corporatization. I was very 1356 01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:17,080 Speaker 1: worried that we were moving towards a sort of oligopoly situation. 1357 01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:20,439 Speaker 1: And then there was a point early on where I 1358 01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:24,120 Speaker 1: think the big five companies they were all measured in 1359 01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:28,519 Speaker 1: the billions, valid in the billions, and they were more 1360 01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:32,000 Speaker 1: than half of the total market. But interestingly that is 1361 01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:34,719 Speaker 1: actually shrunk. A lot of them have kind of collapsed 1362 01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:36,680 Speaker 1: to a certain extent. You're till raise and yeah, I 1363 01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:39,519 Speaker 1: can't remember what they're all called, but they're they're now 1364 01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:43,800 Speaker 1: they're like most Let me interupt you on two issues. Then. 1365 01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:47,439 Speaker 1: One is when it comes to cultivation, can you have 1366 01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:51,080 Speaker 1: mega cultivation facilities in one province exploring to the rest 1367 01:16:51,080 --> 01:16:55,880 Speaker 1: of the country. And secondly, and so that seems to 1368 01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:59,040 Speaker 1: me very different what's going on the US right now, 1369 01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:02,120 Speaker 1: and that means that you would potentially have major concentration 1370 01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:04,519 Speaker 1: were something like we've had, you know, we're people envision 1371 01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:07,000 Speaker 1: if you're under federal legalization, that the Central Valley in 1372 01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:09,519 Speaker 1: California could be exporting too much of them, but we 1373 01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:12,600 Speaker 1: could we could make the rules. If you're writing the legislation, 1374 01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:14,760 Speaker 1: you get to make the rules. And if you say 1375 01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:19,440 Speaker 1: no one company can cultivate more than ex hectares of cannabis, 1376 01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:22,280 Speaker 1: then that is then the law and so it. But 1377 01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:25,120 Speaker 1: has Canada done that? They haven't. I mean I actually 1378 01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:27,240 Speaker 1: wish that they did. I recommended that they did, and 1379 01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:32,080 Speaker 1: they didn't. You know, I work with the Federal Task Force. 1380 01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:35,720 Speaker 1: I didn't actually draft the law. I understand and what 1381 01:17:35,960 --> 01:17:38,519 Speaker 1: and what about in terms of corporate you know, corporate 1382 01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:42,040 Speaker 1: concentration And obviously a lot of these companies grew too fast, 1383 01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:45,040 Speaker 1: they were too full of themselves. They collapsed. But what 1384 01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:50,040 Speaker 1: prevents corporate concentration. It's another thing that I think that 1385 01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:53,720 Speaker 1: they didn't do enough. On UM. There has been a 1386 01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:57,280 Speaker 1: consolidation and corporate corporate capture up to a point. But 1387 01:17:57,320 --> 01:18:00,400 Speaker 1: as the point I was just making was actually UM 1388 01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:02,640 Speaker 1: that system, it seems that the market seems to have 1389 01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:05,120 Speaker 1: actually in the last couple of years become more diverse 1390 01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:08,120 Speaker 1: and not less, which kind of has surprised me. But 1391 01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:12,200 Speaker 1: that's what the data suggests. UM. I think I think 1392 01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:14,200 Speaker 1: some of the points you were making earlier, that you know, 1393 01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:16,519 Speaker 1: one of the things that Canada didn't do well. Was 1394 01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:19,719 Speaker 1: the was the social equity piece? They really didn't. They've 1395 01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:22,720 Speaker 1: they've had to kind of retrospectively try and introduce some 1396 01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:27,960 Speaker 1: social equity stuff, particularly related to participation in indigenous groups. 1397 01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:31,479 Speaker 1: And you know, the regulatory bars to entry to the 1398 01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:34,600 Speaker 1: market were way too high even for their kind of 1399 01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:39,200 Speaker 1: micro cultivation. Um you you needed to have literally hundreds 1400 01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:41,599 Speaker 1: of thousands of dollars um you had to build your 1401 01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:44,679 Speaker 1: facility before you could even apply for a license, which 1402 01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:48,720 Speaker 1: was crazy. So I think they didn't do some of 1403 01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:51,640 Speaker 1: the stuff around social equity at all well. But I 1404 01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:53,880 Speaker 1: get the sense that they've they acknowledged some of those 1405 01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:57,800 Speaker 1: shortcomings and are trying to kind of retrospectively kind of 1406 01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:01,600 Speaker 1: engineering some more social justice staff and more social equity programs, 1407 01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:05,680 Speaker 1: particularly around indigenous participation and micro cultivation. But you know, 1408 01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:08,400 Speaker 1: other countries can see it, can look at what's happened 1409 01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:10,120 Speaker 1: in the US States, they can look at what's happened 1410 01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:13,639 Speaker 1: in Canada nationally and at the provincial level, and learned 1411 01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:15,519 Speaker 1: from that and goal, look, they did this really well. 1412 01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:20,400 Speaker 1: I mean things like you know, quality control inspections, packaging 1413 01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:23,559 Speaker 1: REGs and so on. Generally, I think all of that stuff, 1414 01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:27,360 Speaker 1: health warnings and UM tax tax controls. I think generally 1415 01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:30,240 Speaker 1: was pretty good. And you're seeing about sixty of the 1416 01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:34,479 Speaker 1: market is now tax and regulated in Canada after four 1417 01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:37,519 Speaker 1: years five years, sorry um, And you know it's been 1418 01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:39,400 Speaker 1: it's been creeping up. It was thirty years, or it 1419 01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:42,479 Speaker 1: was after one year, and then after like two or 1420 01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:45,000 Speaker 1: three years, and now it's about six and it's still 1421 01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:47,720 Speaker 1: going up now sixty. You know, it would be a 1422 01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:50,360 Speaker 1: lot better if that was eight, but that's six still 1423 01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:55,960 Speaker 1: sixty pc tax and regulated as opposed to illegal, untaxed 1424 01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:59,599 Speaker 1: and unregulated, which is what it was before. So it's 1425 01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:02,960 Speaker 1: still those age programs. I think generally they've done a 1426 01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:05,640 Speaker 1: good job, but there were shortcomings. The question you and 1427 01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:09,120 Speaker 1: I are both mutually interested in, is there any way 1428 01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:11,599 Speaker 1: to kind of get to the point of diversity and 1429 01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:15,280 Speaker 1: diversification and avoiding the conglomeration of wealth and the album 1430 01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:19,479 Speaker 1: oligopoli phenomenon, you know, you know, without having the big 1431 01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:22,040 Speaker 1: guys take over in the first place. And the question 1432 01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:25,240 Speaker 1: is can that realistically happen? Can it? Can it? Can 1433 01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:29,200 Speaker 1: it really happen? Given the power of economics in all 1434 01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:31,960 Speaker 1: of this, and given the realities of politics and all 1435 01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:33,920 Speaker 1: of this, and given the fact that you know, a 1436 01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:35,559 Speaker 1: big part of the U. S. Government is controlled by 1437 01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:38,080 Speaker 1: Republicans who don't care about a lot of this type 1438 01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:40,240 Speaker 1: of thing that you and I are talking about, right 1439 01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:42,439 Speaker 1: And as you say when you talk about NAPTON, w 1440 01:20:42,640 --> 01:20:45,280 Speaker 1: t O and all these other sorts of variables. So 1441 01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:48,120 Speaker 1: the question is, is is can in fact that happen? And 1442 01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:50,439 Speaker 1: one of the things I find myself saying people who 1443 01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:54,479 Speaker 1: are pursuing equity objectives, especially at the governmental level, is 1444 01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:57,599 Speaker 1: try to think forward five or ten years. Take everything 1445 01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:02,120 Speaker 1: we know about the forces that lead to concentration and 1446 01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:06,040 Speaker 1: to oligopoli takeover, and try to figure out what are 1447 01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:10,160 Speaker 1: the things that can effectively be blocked. How do you 1448 01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:13,679 Speaker 1: take a stand in certain areas where you can preserve 1449 01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:15,960 Speaker 1: things that are meaningful? And I think we need to 1450 01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:18,800 Speaker 1: look at the lessons um from other industries. I mean, 1451 01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:20,560 Speaker 1: you know, if you look at alcohol. I was just 1452 01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:24,519 Speaker 1: looking the other day, Steve at which states allow liquor 1453 01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:27,240 Speaker 1: to be sold in supermarkets, and I think like a 1454 01:21:27,400 --> 01:21:30,320 Speaker 1: third third to a half of all U S states 1455 01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:33,000 Speaker 1: now allow liquor to be sold in supermarkets, and they 1456 01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:36,080 Speaker 1: vary from you know, conservative states to moderate states to 1457 01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:38,680 Speaker 1: liberal states all around the country. There's no kind of 1458 01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:41,240 Speaker 1: rhyme or reason to that. And I think that in 1459 01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:43,760 Speaker 1: those states where liquor can be sold in supermarkets, you're 1460 01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:47,160 Speaker 1: less likely to have small liquor stores, right, small wine 1461 01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:50,760 Speaker 1: stores and things like that. So I'm curious how much 1462 01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:53,799 Speaker 1: of you and others are they looking at the viable 1463 01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:58,360 Speaker 1: models from alcohol control um that makes sense, or if 1464 01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:01,639 Speaker 1: we're looking in the global context looking at the models first, 1465 01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:05,200 Speaker 1: say coffee production or cocao production, the ones that have 1466 01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:09,840 Speaker 1: been successful in retaining you know, a real diversity of 1467 01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:14,879 Speaker 1: participation on the cultivation and the distribution side as opposed 1468 01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:18,920 Speaker 1: to having oligopoly takeover. Which elements of industry are the 1469 01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:22,280 Speaker 1: ones where you can best resist oligopoly, whereas which elements 1470 01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:24,639 Speaker 1: of industry are the ones where it's inevitable, and therefore 1471 01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,600 Speaker 1: you figure out how to kind of catalyze, how to 1472 01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:30,200 Speaker 1: direct that stuff so you can protect the small guys 1473 01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:32,800 Speaker 1: without ever thinking you can ultimately block it. But in 1474 01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:36,240 Speaker 1: terms of going forward, and as we think not just 1475 01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:39,719 Speaker 1: about cannabis, as we think about the legal regulation of cocaine, 1476 01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:42,160 Speaker 1: hopefully cocaine, as we think about m d m A. 1477 01:22:42,240 --> 01:22:45,479 Speaker 1: Things like how much do you know about people looking 1478 01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:48,840 Speaker 1: at these other models, whether the alcohol field or the 1479 01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:51,880 Speaker 1: cacao and coffee field on the production side, is that 1480 01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:55,200 Speaker 1: thinking happening or not? And if not, one I think 1481 01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:57,479 Speaker 1: it is. I mean we we've been trying to get 1482 01:22:58,160 --> 01:23:01,719 Speaker 1: people in the sustainable to element and social and sustainable 1483 01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:05,120 Speaker 1: of element goals, people in the development field UM engaged 1484 01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:08,520 Speaker 1: in the drug quality debate specifically around you know, alternative 1485 01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:10,559 Speaker 1: to prohibition and what legal markets are some of these 1486 01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:15,160 Speaker 1: drug drug drug plant crops would look like, and how 1487 01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:20,679 Speaker 1: we can build in things like sustainable development and fair 1488 01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:26,720 Speaker 1: trade principles and you know, protecting traditional growers. A lot 1489 01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:30,800 Speaker 1: of these concepts UM have been thought about. You know, 1490 01:23:31,320 --> 01:23:33,920 Speaker 1: organizations like the Transational Institute the Netherlands has done a 1491 01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:36,240 Speaker 1: lot of work, Health Poverty Action in the UK have 1492 01:23:36,280 --> 01:23:38,200 Speaker 1: done a lot of work. Transform We've been pushing it 1493 01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:41,800 Speaker 1: UM and a lot of the things that you've already 1494 01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:45,600 Speaker 1: you've already touched upon, you know, learning lessons from successful 1495 01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:50,840 Speaker 1: fair trade approaches to other agricultural products. But you know, 1496 01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:54,360 Speaker 1: at a domestic level, I think you can do anti 1497 01:23:54,360 --> 01:23:59,080 Speaker 1: monopoly legislation, you can do an awful lot with licensing controls. 1498 01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:02,960 Speaker 1: You know, you can say no individual economic actor can 1499 01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:06,880 Speaker 1: can take more than X number of licenses, and you 1500 01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:09,600 Speaker 1: you know, you aren't allowed to have vertical integration, you 1501 01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:13,679 Speaker 1: can't own production and retail facilities. You can actually do 1502 01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:18,280 Speaker 1: a lot to prevent those things at the initial legislative 1503 01:24:18,320 --> 01:24:21,920 Speaker 1: slate stage. And if it's if it's if it's hardwired 1504 01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:25,479 Speaker 1: into the legislation at the outset, it's not something that 1505 01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:29,080 Speaker 1: will necessarily just get eroded um in time. And of 1506 01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:32,800 Speaker 1: course legislation can be amended or superseded um. But if 1507 01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:36,440 Speaker 1: you don't allow the emergence of these you know, ultra powerful, 1508 01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:41,479 Speaker 1: multi billion pound corporations in the first instance, um, then 1509 01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:45,959 Speaker 1: you know those those power blocks of of of lobbying 1510 01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:49,960 Speaker 1: and political influence don't emerge either. So you don't have 1511 01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:54,639 Speaker 1: to then try and retroactively impose responsible regulation and control 1512 01:24:54,720 --> 01:24:56,639 Speaker 1: like we've had to do with our Cohn tobacco. We've 1513 01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:59,439 Speaker 1: done successfully to back up to some degree, but we 1514 01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:02,120 Speaker 1: haven't really done with alcohol yet, which is why I 1515 01:25:02,160 --> 01:25:06,320 Speaker 1: would argue that alcohol is critically underregulated in many ways, 1516 01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:10,040 Speaker 1: particularly around retail and marketing and corporate sponsorship and so on. 1517 01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:12,840 Speaker 1: But I just think there's there's a lot we can do. 1518 01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:16,160 Speaker 1: And if you are actually in the position of making 1519 01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:19,679 Speaker 1: the reforms and drafting the legislations which shape the nature 1520 01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:23,360 Speaker 1: of the market from the outset, you have the power 1521 01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:25,960 Speaker 1: to do things very differently. And that's why you do 1522 01:25:26,120 --> 01:25:29,560 Speaker 1: have the possibility of social ecuty programs that restrict licensing 1523 01:25:29,720 --> 01:25:34,120 Speaker 1: or preference licensing for for impact to communities, and you 1524 01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:38,920 Speaker 1: are able to legislate that tax revenue is redirected into 1525 01:25:39,280 --> 01:25:42,680 Speaker 1: impact to communities, and you can put in place controls 1526 01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:48,200 Speaker 1: that prevent certain actors from participating. You can actually do it. 1527 01:25:48,240 --> 01:25:51,320 Speaker 1: You can design and and and have markets operate in 1528 01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:54,799 Speaker 1: a different way at a legislative level from the outset. 1529 01:25:55,120 --> 01:25:58,280 Speaker 1: And of course then there are also options like state monopolies. 1530 01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:01,160 Speaker 1: So in a number of as I've already said, in 1531 01:26:01,160 --> 01:26:04,080 Speaker 1: a number of Canadian provinces, you do have state monopolies 1532 01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:06,920 Speaker 1: on retail. In Quebec, all of the cannabis shops are 1533 01:26:07,120 --> 01:26:11,840 Speaker 1: run by the provincial government of Quebec um and and 1534 01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:13,600 Speaker 1: this it's a bit like the alcohol model in some 1535 01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:16,839 Speaker 1: Nordic countries, which in Sweden, for example, all alcohol retailing 1536 01:26:17,200 --> 01:26:20,080 Speaker 1: is run but as a state monopoly of the Swedish 1537 01:26:20,080 --> 01:26:23,880 Speaker 1: government um. Or you can have a very strictly regulated, 1538 01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:27,160 Speaker 1: effectively a state monopoly model on production as well um 1539 01:26:27,280 --> 01:26:30,360 Speaker 1: as they've done in Uruguay. Or you can have nonprofit 1540 01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:33,360 Speaker 1: and homegrowing only, as they've done in Malta. So there 1541 01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:36,479 Speaker 1: are alternatives, there are different ways of doing this. We 1542 01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:40,400 Speaker 1: don't have to go down um an alcohol tobacco model. 1543 01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:42,720 Speaker 1: And it used to Ethan. He used to annoy me 1544 01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:44,360 Speaker 1: when you would. You would talk about, you know, let's 1545 01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:48,519 Speaker 1: let's legalize and regulate cannabis like we do alcohol, and 1546 01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:51,439 Speaker 1: let's tax and regulate cannabis like alcohol. And I go, no, no, 1547 01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:53,639 Speaker 1: let's do it. Let's do it better than that. Don't 1548 01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:55,200 Speaker 1: keep saying that either let's do it, let's do it 1549 01:26:55,240 --> 01:26:57,479 Speaker 1: better than that. Let's let's learn from all the crappy 1550 01:26:57,600 --> 01:27:01,120 Speaker 1: stuff we've done with alcohol regulation and not do that 1551 01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:03,799 Speaker 1: and do it better. And let's let's use cannabis regulations 1552 01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:07,320 Speaker 1: an opportunity to show how drugs can be regulated and 1553 01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:10,559 Speaker 1: how markets can be regulated in the interests of the 1554 01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:14,640 Speaker 1: communities in which those markets exist, because rather than in 1555 01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:17,320 Speaker 1: the in the narrow interests of governments or in the 1556 01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:20,040 Speaker 1: narrow interests of corporate profits, which is the way that 1557 01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:23,160 Speaker 1: a lot of markets have gone um up to now, 1558 01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:25,559 Speaker 1: and that operates at a local level, that operates at 1559 01:27:25,560 --> 01:27:27,920 Speaker 1: a state level, at a national level, at a regional level, 1560 01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:30,000 Speaker 1: and at an international level. So we have to be 1561 01:27:30,080 --> 01:27:35,960 Speaker 1: thinking about these intersecting issues that operate at different scales 1562 01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:38,519 Speaker 1: as well as the issues themselves as social justice and 1563 01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:41,840 Speaker 1: social equity, is and fair trade or important principles, but 1564 01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:44,599 Speaker 1: they operate at all different scales, and some of them 1565 01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:48,960 Speaker 1: maybe tensions between you know, local level initiatives, national evaluatives, 1566 01:27:49,080 --> 01:27:52,920 Speaker 1: and an international initiatives. This stuff is complicated. You know 1567 01:27:53,360 --> 01:27:55,719 Speaker 1: that there's a lot of work to be done, even 1568 01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:58,240 Speaker 1: if we get the principles in place, and even if 1569 01:27:58,280 --> 01:28:02,559 Speaker 1: the political will and intent is there actually delivering these 1570 01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:06,559 Speaker 1: things effectively UM in ways that can last. You know, 1571 01:28:06,600 --> 01:28:08,479 Speaker 1: as you say, a lot of these things may be vulnerable. 1572 01:28:08,479 --> 01:28:10,960 Speaker 1: We can have all these good intentions and then a 1573 01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:13,599 Speaker 1: few years down the road, you know, corporate capture and 1574 01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:16,760 Speaker 1: corporate consolidation has eroded a lot of this stuff. We 1575 01:28:16,760 --> 01:28:20,200 Speaker 1: have to put in place solid legislation that can stand 1576 01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:23,680 Speaker 1: the test of time, deliver stuff that deliver outcomes that 1577 01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:28,640 Speaker 1: communities want to see and therefore communities and the politicians 1578 01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:31,639 Speaker 1: that serve that will be supportive of these these initiatives 1579 01:28:31,640 --> 01:28:35,200 Speaker 1: in the longer term. I mean, I genuinely believe it's doable, 1580 01:28:35,400 --> 01:28:37,080 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of the examples that are 1581 01:28:37,080 --> 01:28:40,160 Speaker 1: emerging already, whether it's in Uruguay, whether it's in Malta, 1582 01:28:40,200 --> 01:28:43,160 Speaker 1: whether it's in some of the better models that have 1583 01:28:43,240 --> 01:28:47,080 Speaker 1: emerged in US states and Canadian provinces, we're doing that already. 1584 01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:50,640 Speaker 1: We're showing how things can be done better. Because legalization 1585 01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:53,559 Speaker 1: is a process. Regulation is the end point, but there 1586 01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:55,320 Speaker 1: is more than one way to do it. You can 1587 01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:57,559 Speaker 1: do it well or you can do it badly. And 1588 01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:00,040 Speaker 1: I think advocates such as US you've been pushed in 1589 01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:02,400 Speaker 1: for a form all these years, we need to be 1590 01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:06,640 Speaker 1: advocating for for legalization regulation to be done right. And 1591 01:29:06,680 --> 01:29:08,439 Speaker 1: when it's not done right, I think we have to 1592 01:29:08,439 --> 01:29:12,080 Speaker 1: speak up against it. And it pains me sometimes to 1593 01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:15,280 Speaker 1: be critical of some of the legalization models that are emerging, 1594 01:29:15,320 --> 01:29:17,240 Speaker 1: but I think it was it was it in Ohio 1595 01:29:17,320 --> 01:29:21,040 Speaker 1: where they had this awful model with um well, basically 1596 01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:24,960 Speaker 1: they were having a constitutional monopoly for the people who 1597 01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:28,639 Speaker 1: funded the ballot initiative where these ten named people would 1598 01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:31,280 Speaker 1: then get basically a monopoly on the on the legal 1599 01:29:31,320 --> 01:29:33,280 Speaker 1: cannabis market. And you know, I had to come out 1600 01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:35,680 Speaker 1: against it, but Stevens said, I did. I did want 1601 01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:37,759 Speaker 1: to give you the last word on this. But quite funny, 1602 01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:41,080 Speaker 1: that was a wonderful sonation that you just presented, and 1603 01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:44,080 Speaker 1: I overwhelmingly of course in the end. You know, I've 1604 01:29:44,160 --> 01:29:46,040 Speaker 1: I've been on record for a long time as saying 1605 01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:48,040 Speaker 1: I'm not in this for the bud wise irization or 1606 01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:52,839 Speaker 1: marlboritization of marijuana. I really believe in the smallest beautiful 1607 01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:55,280 Speaker 1: model and I'd like to see that work, and I 1608 01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:59,439 Speaker 1: hope that we can actually make that. You know, that's 1609 01:29:59,439 --> 01:30:01,880 Speaker 1: the next five know we've we've won the first, we've 1610 01:30:01,880 --> 01:30:05,680 Speaker 1: won the argument against prohibition. That the next battle is 1611 01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:08,679 Speaker 1: to make sure that the regulation and the legalization regulation 1612 01:30:08,800 --> 01:30:10,880 Speaker 1: is done in the right way that you know, it's 1613 01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:17,720 Speaker 1: a supports the principles that on that very optimistic and 1614 01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:20,600 Speaker 1: promising note, I want to bring our extended conversation to 1615 01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:23,320 Speaker 1: a halt. I want to thank you, Steve for being 1616 01:30:23,439 --> 01:30:27,639 Speaker 1: such a wonderful ally throughout many decades and continuing into 1617 01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:30,280 Speaker 1: the future, and a good friend, and for being a 1618 01:30:30,320 --> 01:30:32,920 Speaker 1: real thought leader, and not just a thought leader, but 1619 01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:35,120 Speaker 1: somebody who has had an impact on the way government 1620 01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:38,559 Speaker 1: shapes these policies and bringing the right set of values 1621 01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:40,840 Speaker 1: to thinking about all of this. And also thank you 1622 01:30:41,200 --> 01:30:45,000 Speaker 1: for being you know, episode number eighties to conclude season 1623 01:30:45,080 --> 01:30:47,640 Speaker 1: two of Psychoactive, and hopefully it will not be the 1624 01:30:47,720 --> 01:30:51,040 Speaker 1: last episode of Psychoactive ever. Um, but I'm very glad 1625 01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:53,519 Speaker 1: that you've got to be the final guest that we've 1626 01:30:53,520 --> 01:30:56,920 Speaker 1: had in this current incarnation of psychoactis. Thank you then, 1627 01:30:56,920 --> 01:30:59,120 Speaker 1: it's been it's been a privilege to work with you 1628 01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:01,240 Speaker 1: over all these years, and it's been a it's been 1629 01:31:01,320 --> 01:31:03,080 Speaker 1: fun coming on the show. And I hope it isn't 1630 01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:05,719 Speaker 1: the last one. I hope so too. Okay, Steve, thanks 1631 01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:13,559 Speaker 1: so much pleasure. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your 1632 01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:15,759 Speaker 1: friends about it, or you can write us a review 1633 01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:19,040 Speaker 1: at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We 1634 01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:21,600 Speaker 1: love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like to 1635 01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:24,559 Speaker 1: share your own stories, comments, and ideas, then leave us 1636 01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:28,759 Speaker 1: a message at one eight three three seven seven nine 1637 01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:34,599 Speaker 1: sixty that's eight three three Psycho zero, or you can 1638 01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:38,400 Speaker 1: email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or find 1639 01:31:38,400 --> 01:31:41,599 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. You can also find 1640 01:31:41,600 --> 01:31:45,799 Speaker 1: contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production 1641 01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:49,360 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by 1642 01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:53,679 Speaker 1: me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by noa'm osband and Josh Stain. 1643 01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:58,479 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus 1644 01:31:58,479 --> 01:32:01,800 Speaker 1: and Darren Aronotsky from proto Zilla Pictures, Alex Williams and 1645 01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:04,920 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick from my Heart Radio, and me Ethan Edelman. 1646 01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:09,200 Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks 1647 01:32:09,240 --> 01:32:14,840 Speaker 1: to Avi Vi Brioseph Bianca Grimshaw and Robert deep H