1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Sbot to Blow Your Mind, the production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: And today we're back with part two of our discussion 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: of the Shanhai Jing, the ancient Chinese work of mythic 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: geography that we introduced in the last episode. If you're 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: just coming in on this one, I really recommend you 8 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: go back and listen to the previous episode first, because 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: that will make sense of what we're talking about today. Yeah, 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 1: it's it's just really was really fun to dive into 11 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: the nature and history of this ancient Chinese text. Uh 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: not not only to learn about it and about the 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, the Chinese culture to emerge from, but it 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: also I think exemplifies a lot of realities about texts 15 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: and about old texts and old books. Uh so well 16 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: worth listening to if you happen to skip it now. 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: The refreecap is that the Shanhaijing. This title is sometimes 18 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: translated as the Classic of Mountains and Seas or The 19 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: Cannon of Mountains and Seas. One of the authors who 20 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: did some translations and commentary that we talked about in 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: the last episode Richard Strasburg. I think he translates it 22 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: as Guideways through the mountains and seas. This is, in 23 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: some ways you could look at it as an ancient 24 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: travel book. It's a book of ancient mythic geography that 25 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: tells you about mountains and seas, seas, sometimes in a 26 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: metaphorical kind of sense, and not just meaning water, but 27 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: expanses of the world. Uh, and the animals and plants 28 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: and minerals you can find there, and often the gods 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: and monsters that you can find there. That's right. So 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: in this episode, we're just going to talk about some 31 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: of the various gods and monsters that pop up um, 32 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: some big ones, some small ones, some that turns out 33 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: they're not even perhaps even that fantastic at all, but 34 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: the description is kind of fantastic. Uh. So we're gonna 35 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: We're gonna start big though, with one of the I 36 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: think the more interesting looking creatures, at least as it's 37 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: often depicted in illustrations for this book, but also in 38 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: terms of just like how deeply weird it happens to be. 39 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking about hundun Um, which Anne Burrow 40 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: translates as muddle thick uh. But this uh, this is 41 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: a cree. I think we touched on this creature very 42 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: briefly in the last episode, right, Well, we were talking 43 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: about some of the illustrations that accompany the at least 44 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: the Strasbourg translation of these selections from the Shannhaijing. Now, 45 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,839 Speaker 1: the illustrations that we have in in additions like Strassburg's, 46 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: they don't go back all the way. These are not 47 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: illustrations that would have accompanied it in its earliest form. 48 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: They're more like a few hundred years old, but they're 49 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: still wonderful. But this one reference, actually the the entry 50 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: is under the name Dijng, and the dij Young contains 51 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: a reference to this this idea of Huondon, which will 52 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: explain more as we go on. But the dis Young 53 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: is sometimes depicted as having no face and no eyes, 54 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: and in these these classic woodblock illustrations, he's like a 55 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: six legged winged beast with butts on both ends. Well, um, 56 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 1: as we'll get into, I don't think they're butts, um, 57 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: I I would. I would describe it as also looking 58 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: a bit like an Ottoman, like a like a four 59 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: and I mean, I'm sorry, a six legged ottoman with wings. Um, 60 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: it's it's a strange looking creature. And so let me 61 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: go ahead and read from the Shanhaijing. This is Barrel's 62 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: translation quote. Three hundred and fifty leagues further west is 63 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: a mountain called Mount Sky. It has a great amount 64 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: of gold and jade and green male yellow. The river 65 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: Brave rises here and then flows southwest to empty into 66 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: Hot Water Valley. There is a god here who looks 67 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: like a yellow sack. He is scarlet like sinnabar fire. 68 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: He has six ft and four wings. He is muddle thick. 69 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: He has no face and no wies. He knows how 70 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: to sing and dance. He is in truth the great 71 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: God Long River. Now that is an excellent string of sentences. 72 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: Uh we. We got in the last episode into some 73 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: issues about difficulties in translating the the ancient Chinese graphs 74 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: that are used in this text and how to turn 75 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: them into modern concepts or or words in other languages. So, 76 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: for example, some differences here in Strasburg's translation. So the 77 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 1: mountain in Burrels is called Mount Sky, and Strasburg it's 78 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: the celestial mountain in Burrel green male yellow. For Strasburg 79 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: is green real gar, and Realgar is the name of 80 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: an arsenic sulfide mineral that forms these striking red crystals. 81 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: Burrel's River Brave is imminent river for Strasburg, I think 82 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: I like River Brave better um. But the biggest difference 83 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: is that where Burrel says he is muddle thick, he 84 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: has no face and no eyes, Strasburg translates, he exists 85 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: in a state of confusion with no face or I. 86 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: And in this we're getting into that term um undon, 87 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: which can be used in a couple of different ways. Um. 88 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: I believe it can be used as a as like 89 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: a noun and an adjective. This according to Yang and 90 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: in Turner in their book Chinese Mythology. So it can 91 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: be a descriptive term, or it can be the noun. 92 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: It can refer to chaos and primeval chaos, but it 93 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: also can refer to a person who is quote ignorant 94 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: and muddle headed. So easily you can see how this 95 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:36,239 Speaker 1: complicates the translation process, and Strasburg writes about this that 96 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: that there are various lens of what he calls associative 97 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: reasoning and linguistic connections that have taken the Dijong and 98 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: made it in many commentaries not just a creature, not 99 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: just a critter of the mountains, but somehow the personification 100 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: of what he calls cosmogonic chaos. And this is the 101 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: idea of hun doon Uh. And he says that the 102 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: conclusion here is largely based on the line he exists 103 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 1: in a state of confusion, that word confusion being hundu 104 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: and h u n d un in the English, and 105 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: how that could be taken as the proper name hundon, 106 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: which is a chaos personification, a kind of confusion deity 107 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: that there are actual myths and fables about Yeah, like 108 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: for instance, um, even in modern Mandarin chaos theory is 109 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: known as undu and chia uh chaos theory math. So 110 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: the illustration that accompanies this is I think really quite 111 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: cute in many ways. I'm kind of reminded of a 112 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: triple you know, especially in its faithlessness and uh in 113 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: all now, um, what you said earlier Joe about about 114 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: this being looking like a winged and legged butt um 115 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: or a double butt even, um, you know you are 116 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 1: tempting the gods of chaos, I think by stating this, 117 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: And interestingly enough, uh if you were to say it 118 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: it looks like it has one butt or two butts, 119 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: you'd be complete you wrong as well, because the god's 120 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: lack of bodily orifices is stressed in parallel texts from 121 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: the fourth century b C. According to Beryl, yes so, 122 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: so if this were a creature with six legs and 123 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: four wings and a butt on each ends, the butts 124 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: on each end would have to be without anuses. They 125 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: would just be smooth, uh butts with no orifice at all. Now, um, 126 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting that this is something to keep in mind. 127 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: If this lunar new Year, you haven't to have wantons. 128 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: Apparently Hundun has some connection, possibly some connection or faint 129 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: connection to the word for wanton. And indeed, if you 130 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: look at it, it does kind of look like a 131 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: wanton with wings and feet. Yeah, it's a cute, fluffy 132 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: little package. It can absolutely look like a dumpling of 133 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: some sort. Or to go back to the original passage 134 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: in the Shannhaijing, it is compared to a sack, and 135 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: in some ways a dumpling is like a sack for 136 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: food contents. Now, she mentions that the legs are are 137 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: often described as being reptile legs and has these yellow 138 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: and scarlet markings, and though eyeless and faceless, it is 139 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: also the originator of song and dance. Now, this this 140 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: really got me thinking because it made me it made 141 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: me think back to Corman McCarthy's Blood Meridian. Now, I'm 142 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: not aware that cormanccarthy ever drew uh any inspiration from 143 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: Chinese writings or myth, but but I am strongly reminded 144 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: of Judge Holden in all of this, the murderous scalp 145 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: hunter and gnostic ARCon in his West in that Western novel, 146 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 1: Because aside from Holden's deep connections with chaos and the 147 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: supernatural overtones to the characters, there's this fabulous bit from 148 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: the closing pages of the novel in which quote he 149 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: is dancing dancing, he says that he will never die. 150 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,359 Speaker 1: And he's also described in the scene as seem particularly 151 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: as being naked and hairless, pale, quote like an enormous infant. 152 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: So I would propose that Judge Holden might well be 153 00:08:55,400 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: hound Well Huondon. While in uh some Manifestations is a 154 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: sort of from what I can tell, morally neutral, there 155 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: are evil hun Doon as well. Yeah, and I think 156 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting that chaos would would have these sort 157 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: of different definitions and different um you know, tonal shifts, 158 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: because a lot of reality is concerning chaos. It did 159 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: does depend on on who's telling the story, who's thinking 160 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: about chaos. You know, I'm again reminded of that line 161 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: from a Connoisseur of Chaos by Wallace Stevens. A violent 162 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: order is a disorder, and a great disorder is an order, 163 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: and these two things are one you know. Um oh, 164 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: you're emphasizing that one man's order is another man's chaos, 165 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: Like yeah, pretty crashing treasure. Yeah, yeah, it kind of depends, uh, 166 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: depends his his commentating on it. So the most sighted 167 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: version of this myth comes from zong Zoo, and it's 168 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: a third century BC text that's traditionally attributed to this 169 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: uh Dallast philosopher. Um So, anyway, he tells the story 170 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: in which the chaos deity Hundon resides in a s 171 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: central region and it's this central region where two gods 172 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: from far flowing parts of the world come to meet. 173 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 1: And these two gods are fast and swift, and uh 174 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: you know that they felt they after a while they've 175 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: been meeting here. Um, you know, I guess like having 176 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: coffee and stuff. They felt they owed whom doing a 177 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: debt of gratitude. But how do you repay a being 178 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,439 Speaker 1: who has none of the seven openings of the face? Right? 179 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: You can't sing to them because there are no ear holes. Uh, 180 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: you can't speak, nor can you speak a word of 181 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: thanks to them. You can't give them food or wine. 182 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: So these two gods did the only natural thing. They 183 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: decided to chisel holes into the chaos deity. So they 184 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 1: chiseled one hole per day for seven days, and then 185 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: on the seventh day, the god Hundom dies. Do you 186 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: mind if I just read the direct translation that Strasbourg 187 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: has of this, because I think the wording is very funny. 188 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: It's very brief. So his version is the the arch 189 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: of the Southern Sea was named Sudden, the the arch 190 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: of the North and Cy was named Hasty, and the 191 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: the arch of the center was named Hundun. Once Sudden 192 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: and Hasty together paid a visit to Hundun's domain and 193 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: were treated most courteously by him. They discussed among themselves 194 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: how to repay his generosity, saying, all men have seven 195 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: orifices to see here eat and breathe only he does not. 196 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: Why not drill them for him? Every day? They drilled 197 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: one hole, but after seven days Hundun died, so they 198 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: made it six days. They drilled six holes in his 199 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: head and he was still okay. But when they got 200 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: to the seventh hole, is just just too much. Now 201 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,599 Speaker 1: you might be wondering what could this possibly mean? It 202 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: just sounds like like sheer madness, right, Um? Well, apparently 203 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: the message of the myth that Young tells is that 204 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: one must not inflict artificial order on the natural world. 205 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: So fast and swift here are agents of unnatural order 206 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: attempting to inflict their way of thinking, um in a 207 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: in a way that is, you know, ultimately disastrous, you know, 208 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,599 Speaker 1: killing the entity in the process. Yeah, I got to 209 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: thinking about this. So Strasburg explains that pretty much in 210 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: the same way. He says that the traditional way the 211 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: story is interpreted within Taoism is that Undun is the 212 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: embodiment of primordial chaos quote, who is a victim of 213 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: purposeful activity, destroyed by the well intentioned, though dangerously misguided 214 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: efforts of humanizing civilization. The fable thus reflects the philosopher's 215 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: nostalgia for a golden age of primitive society, when all 216 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: life was believed to be an accord with the simple 217 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: patterns of the natural way other words, in other words 218 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: the Tao. So that seems to be the classic interpretation 219 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: that was presented in this ancient text. Uh. You know, 220 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: there used to be a time when humans were more 221 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: in accord with nature, and then there were the civilizing 222 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,599 Speaker 1: impulses that that led us to, you know, create the 223 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: kind of complicated society we live in today, and that 224 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: sort of ruins everything and and kills this this uh 225 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: being of primordial simplicity. But I was thinking about another 226 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: way to interpret pretty much the same themes is that 227 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: it could be applied to the perils of trying to 228 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: catch lightning in a bottle. You know, that classic story 229 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: of when there is some kind of organic, chaotic creative 230 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 1: process that really works, and then somebody tries to formalize 231 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: it and impose order and it just dies. Uh. You know, 232 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: this can be this is true of all different kinds 233 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: of creativity and fun. I was trying to think of 234 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: a better example from a higher form of literature, but 235 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: the best example that actually came to my mind was 236 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: the movie Wayne's World. The plot of Wayne's World is 237 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: that Wayne and his friend Garth they do a public 238 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: access TV show from their basement that is lovable because 239 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: it is a stupid, improvised screw around project by a 240 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: couple of losers in their basement. But everybody likes it 241 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: and it's fun. And then Rob Lowe shows up and 242 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: he's a slick business executive and he decides to buy 243 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: their show and turn it into a slick high budget 244 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: production with sets and sponsors and fashionalism, and the magic 245 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: dies and the show is terrible. I'm also reminded, of course, 246 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: of the goose that lays the golden eggs? Right, can 247 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: you know where the laziest fag was golden eggs? And 248 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: then you you, you're like, well, I want to I 249 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: want all the eggs, So I'm just gonna cut it open, 250 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: you know. Um, And that one kind of lines up 251 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: and it kills them, the goose, of course, but that 252 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: kind of lines up with this one as well. And 253 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: since it's both involved, this um, this this visceral violence 254 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: that is perpetrated on something in an attempt to um 255 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: to get the most out of it and to instill 256 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: some sort of order on things. I guess maybe it's 257 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: just because we work in the media space that the 258 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: main ideas that come to my brain are media ones. 259 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: But it does absolutely seem to be a replica, like 260 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: a repeating pattern in the real world. Is like something 261 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: is creative and interesting and fun and then order gets 262 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: imposed on it and it just dies. Yeah. I wonder 263 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: what Dr Ian Malcolm would have had to say about 264 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: all this concerning genetically modified, resurrected dinosaurs and so forth. 265 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: And he is a worshiper of Hundun in some respects. Yeah, yeah, 266 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: he's a practitioner of Hundu, was it? Yeah, I believe so. Yeah. 267 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: The chaos chaos theory. Now, another thing Strassbord notes is 268 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: that it is tempting to see parallels between the characteristics 269 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: of this of this chaos creature, Hundun, and the idea 270 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: of a formless void or the undifferentiated cosmos that exists 271 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: prior to the creation of the world, or of the 272 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: cosmic order in a number of ancient cosmologies. Um, you know, 273 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: the noise that existed prior to any signal. Now, why 274 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: would that be, especially if you're taking it out of 275 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: the broader picture of Hundun as a as an ancient 276 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: personification of chaos, and into the specific example of the 277 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: dij Young as the creature from the Classic of the 278 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: Mountains and zas Why would this be? Well, the di 279 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: Young has four wings, six legs, no face, no eyes, 280 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: and this seems to imply that its movement is not directed. 281 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: It's a kind of omnidirectional wandering without purpose. And also 282 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: the comparison of his body to a sack. What do 283 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: sacks contain? Well, unless you put something in them, they 284 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: contain emptiness. Now another thing. Strasburg says, that's interesting, but 285 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: I don't think I really understood. He says that the 286 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: body of the dish Young suggests creation myths where the 287 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: universe is created from the body of a dead god. 288 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: And this absolutely is a fascinating and common type of 289 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: creation myth. But I'm not really sure I see the 290 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: comparison there. He doesn't really explain that idea. Further, I 291 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: wonder if you can make anything of that. Um, I 292 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: didn't read about that myself. It may but I you know, 293 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: I instantly just think of of it looking like flesh, 294 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: kind of just just generic flesh, you know. So here 295 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: is like just a lump of the tissue of a god. 296 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: And now it has wings and feet. It's kind of 297 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: sprouted them. Um, you know John Carpenter's the thing style, right, Yeah, 298 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: it's like hills with legs. Now, this doesn't really aid 299 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: an understanding of all this at all, but it's kind 300 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: of neat. I was looking at through my my normal 301 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: monster texts and in Um Joorge Louis borheas the Book 302 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: of Imaginary Beings, he does mention this creature in passing um, 303 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,959 Speaker 1: referring to it as as tai ching, getting at that 304 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: that daijing um name, and he just says that dai 305 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: jing is a supernatural bird that lives in the celestial mountains. 306 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: It is bright red and has six legs and four wings, 307 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: but it has neither a face nor eyes. Now I 308 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier that we would get to an evil hundun. Uh, 309 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: so I just want to read a section from Strasbourg 310 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: here in in the dijng entry. So regarding the potential 311 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: malevolent hundun, he writes, there's another historiographical tradition and Zoe's 312 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: narratives to the Spring and Autumn annals, which is a 313 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: it's a late fourth century BC text in which Hundun 314 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: is the evil son of the r Kong also known 315 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: as d Hong. He is known as Hundun that is 316 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: confusion because of his lack of moral consciousness. As one 317 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: of four evil offspring of the arcs, Hundun is finally 318 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: banished along with the rest by Shun, who sends them 319 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: all to the periphery to quell demons. Now not really 320 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: very familiar with this myth. I don't know if you 321 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: know anything about the the the bad deities here are 322 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: sent off to the edges of the world to fight demons. Um. Yeah, 323 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: I've I've I've read a little bit about this before. 324 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: But also the idea of there being four of them 325 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: is kind of interesting because I've read that those these 326 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: these four perils are sometimes presented as the opposing force 327 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: to the four benevolent animals, those being the azure Dragon, 328 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: the vermilion bird, the white tiger, and the black tortoise. 329 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, that sounds familiar. Strasburg also writes quote 330 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: following another line of linguistic reasoning. Yuan Ka, who was 331 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: born in nineteen sixteen, conflated both traditions by dentifying dij 332 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: Young with the ark Hong and also with the yellow 333 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: the arc, the latter considered the the arc of the 334 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: center in Five Agents cosmology. I did five Agents cosmology 335 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: come up in the previous episode. I don't believe it did. 336 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: But we did touch on on yellow and the many 337 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: different names for the yellow whimper or the yellow yellow 338 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,239 Speaker 1: yellow the arc. I believe that's what they're referring to here. Yeah. Now. 339 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: Strasburg writes that the idea of Hundun as a personification 340 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: of confusion or chaos that sort of went along that 341 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: that that carried on for a while. There's evidence of 342 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: it into the Han and the early six dynasties periods 343 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: and uh And eventually in that period he was canonized 344 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: as a god, but then after that period he seems 345 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 1: to have mostly vanished from Chinese pantheons. Though the concept 346 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: of Hundun not necessarily as a personified deity but just 347 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: as an abstract principle, survived in Chinese language and culture 348 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: into later periods uh And and Strasburg describes it as 349 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: quote an abstract term denoting an imp personal state of 350 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: universal chaos. Before the birth of the bipolar forces of 351 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: Yin and Yang and Gopu also comments that the creature 352 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: dis Young is actually cosmic confusion. Though in the end 353 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: it's funny because despite all of these interpretations over the years, 354 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: coming back to what was meant in the original text, 355 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: Strasbourg writes that quote the textual basis in this passage 356 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: of the guide ways for identifying dis Young literally the 357 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: arc long River with the mythical figure Hundun is slim, 358 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: and he can simply be regarded as a strange creature 359 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: in his own right in a sense, like all these 360 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: different attempts to understand it, both from the academics and 361 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: historians and ancient people and even ourselves. I mean, we're 362 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: all kind of just drilling holes into the chaos deity, right, 363 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: We're trying to afflict a certain amount of order on 364 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: the whole premise. Thank thank But I did want to 365 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: take a brief digression. Okay, So what if you assume 366 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: Strasburg's final comment here is correct, and that the real 367 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 1: author of this text would have said, no, No, has 368 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: nothing to do with the primordial personification of chaos and confusion, 369 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: nothing to do with it with a malevolent god. This 370 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: is just a beast that has no face and has 371 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: four wings and six legs. I wanted to see, Okay, 372 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: are there animals without faces? In an interesting way? Because 373 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: of course we know there are animals that everybody is 374 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: aware of the fact that they have no face, like oysters, sponges, starfish. 375 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 1: These are part of the kingdom of the animals, and 376 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: they don't have faces because that's just not how they evolved. 377 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: It's not part of their body plan, it's not what 378 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: they need. I was wondering, could you find something like 379 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: a deer without a face? I didn't find that, But 380 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: there are animals with more recognizably face bearing body plans 381 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: that nevertheless have evolved to have no face. And the 382 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: coolest and creepiest example I came across I was reading 383 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: about in a blog post from the Australian government's Natural 384 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: Environmental Science its program Marine Biodiversity Hub. There's a blog 385 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: post by a researcher named Diane Bray from Mate that 386 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: was about a creature that they had discovered during a 387 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: deep sea expedition. Uh so, so, the author of this 388 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 1: blog post writes, quote, A large, weird, faceless fish landed 389 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: on the deck a couple of days ago. By faceless, 390 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: I mean it had no eyes. Nothing, not even tiny 391 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: spots or modified areas indicating eyes beneath the skin. It 392 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: came from four thousand meters below the surface, where pressures 393 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: are huge, the water is a mere one degree celsius, 394 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: and the seafloor landscape is pretty barren. Everyone was amazed, 395 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: so she writes that they thought maybe they discovered a 396 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: new species. They took tissue samples for analysis. They started 397 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: trying to come up with a name for the fish. 398 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: But then one of their colleagues, a researcher named John 399 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: Pokanowski of the c. S I r O S Australian 400 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: National Fish Collection and Quote, found something similar while working 401 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: his way through various scientific publications. There it was a 402 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: cusk eel with the scientific name ty Flonus and nasus. 403 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: The word ty flonus is apparently derived from the Greek 404 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: typhlos meaning blind, and on nos meaning hake, a blind hake. 405 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: Now I've attached a picture of this animal for you 406 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: to look at. Here, Rob, the large ones of these 407 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: animals really have no externally visible eyes at all. They 408 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: do actually have eyes, but this is even creepier than 409 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: not having eyes. They have eyes that are completely covered 410 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: underneath the skin of the head. Oh interesting, Yeah, that 411 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: the picture, it looks interesting. I don't know how grotesque 412 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: it actually looks, because you can imagine it just just 413 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: emerging from the water and just flopping onto some rice 414 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: and it's like instant sushimi. Yeah, except I don't know, 415 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 1: the tail part of it looks a little bit kind 416 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: of hairy or stringy and unpleasantly But but I see 417 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: what you're getting at. Yeah, it just looks like a 418 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: big old lump of lump of fish meat. Yeah, no 419 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: eyes to concern the the customer or anything, right that 420 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: it just naturally settles your stomach. It quells any concerns 421 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: you may have about eating it while it's still wriggling. 422 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: But so, Yeah, the eyes are covered by the skin 423 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: on the head. Apparently in the younger ones you can 424 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: see the eyes through the skin a little bit better. 425 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: And it has a tiny mouth on the underside of 426 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: its head. But it doesn't you know, it's not something 427 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: that's obvious just from looking at it from the front 428 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: or from above. And now apparently, uh, like I said this, 429 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: this creature had actually been cataloged before it was previously 430 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: caught and described during the trawling of the Challenger expedition 431 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies. I think it was pulled up 432 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy four. And we've discussed the Challenger expedition 433 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: on the show in the past in previous episodes. You 434 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: can check out the archive has searched through it to 435 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: find more. But and this was a a research project 436 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: that took place on the HMS Challenger in the eighteen 437 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: seventies where they would use piano wire to drag these uh, 438 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: these trawling samplers along the bottom of the ocean as 439 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: this ship was sailing and then trying to pull things 440 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: up and see what was alive down there. And apparently 441 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: they found one of these things, this cusk eel that 442 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: is entirely without a visible face. And you know what, 443 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: when I look at it, I do see a kind 444 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: of chaos, at least intuitively, because what is chaos, I mean, 445 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: at its hard I think chaos is randomness. It's the 446 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: implied lack of any purpose or direction or intent, and 447 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: the implied lack of senses here suggests a random rather 448 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: than an ordered relationship with the environment. But again that's 449 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: just you know, our sort of like ignorant observation of 450 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: its face. Officially, this certainly is not without senses in reality. 451 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: In fact, most deep sea organisms have senses that would 452 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: boggle the human mind, like extreme sensitivity to subtle changes 453 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: in water pressure or electric fields or things like that. Right, 454 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it's highly evolved to thrive in its environment. 455 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: And if you kind of if you came along and 456 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: you're like, I need to help this thing. I need 457 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: to start drilling some holes in its head, you know 458 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 1: you would, you would do a great harm. Um. And 459 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: I guess that's kind of the plot of the third 460 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: Creature from The Black Hole, good film, right, the creature 461 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: walks among us. It's just you know, scientists taking the 462 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: creature and trying to turn him into something that he is, not, 463 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: like applying order to him, trying to make him a 464 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: human with disastrous results. Of course, yes, of course that 465 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: is a tragic film. Uh yeah, I think we should 466 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: all take the we we should all take a page 467 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: from the book of do no harm, right, I mean, 468 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: you don't don't just assume somebody needs holes drilled in 469 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: their face, right, Wait until if they ask you to 470 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,719 Speaker 1: drill holes in their face. Okay, but you know this 471 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: is not the time for initiative so certainly one of 472 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: the more thought provoking creatures in the book in the 473 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: classic Uh. But but it's absolutely just feel with with 474 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: creatures that are certainly the modern readers just instantly bizarre 475 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: and uh. And some of them were even just mentioned 476 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,239 Speaker 1: in passing. And that's certainly the case with the one 477 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: we're gonna look at next, which is known as look 478 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: meat or thing or shiro which can bean looks like 479 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: meat or simply this is the one I like the best, 480 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: the look flesh creature. Look, mom, it's flesh basically. So 481 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: the look flesh creature actually pops up numerous times in 482 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: the book, often just casually listed alongside generic things like 483 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: green birds or weeping willows. And as am Barrel explains, 484 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: the look Flesh creature is essentially a denizen of the 485 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: global timeless big Rock Candy Mountain. Uh. You know this, 486 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: of course is the old hobo song about, you know, 487 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: the the Utopia of Hobos where they hung the jerk 488 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: who invented work. Uh, the other cigarette trees. Uh, the 489 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: cigarette trees. The dogs all have rubber teeth, and the 490 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: cops have wooden legs. Right. So she describes the look 491 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: Flesh creature as quote a fable creature, the recurring animalian 492 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: motif of numerous Utopian passages in the text, usually associated 493 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: with the burial place of deities. So it's been described 494 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: as a as being a mass of flesh that looks 495 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: like the liver of an ox, but with two eyes. 496 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: And if you take some meat off of it, you 497 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: cut some meat off of it, and you eat it. 498 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: What more, meat instantly grows back on the look flesh creature. 499 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: So it's essentially the utopian idea of never ending meat. 500 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: It's all you can eat meat right there on the creature. 501 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: And this would have especially resonated with impoverished rural people's, uh, 502 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, the ancient world. This reminds me of something 503 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: that I didn't understand when we first discovered it from 504 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: Russian folklore about last October, when you were talking about 505 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: that artifact that was the self setting tablecloth, Like it 506 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: didn't sound all that interesting until you realize like, oh, 507 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: maybe what it's talking about is that it will magically 508 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: replenish food automatically. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the idea of here, 509 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: here is something I can count on all the time 510 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: to give me sustenance, to give me a meal, and 511 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: and drink or in this case, just flesh, just some 512 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: straight up meat. Here is this marvelous creature that once 513 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: you find it, you have meat for life. It just 514 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: regenerates all the time. It's the goose that laid the 515 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: golden meat. Yeah. I couldn't find an image of this, 516 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: but Joe, but for just for us, I included a 517 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: picture of a cow's liver which you can look at 518 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: and just imagine like two googly eyes staring back at you. 519 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: I find it interesting that it has eyes, Like, like, 520 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: what is you know, going from a creature that has 521 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: no face and no eyes to this creature which doesn't 522 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: really have I mean, all it does is exist to 523 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: be eaten and to regrow the meat that you eat. 524 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: But it has eyes, like you have to I guess 525 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: make eye contact with it the entire time. Well that 526 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,479 Speaker 1: reminds me. Okay, so what are eyes for? Eyes are 527 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: for navigating ones in vironment, for for you know, sensing 528 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: your relationship to other objects, for being able to detect 529 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: prey or detect predators. But yeah, does this thing not 530 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: want to be eaten? Does it need to try to 531 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: get away from you when it sees you? Yeah? I 532 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,239 Speaker 1: don't or maybe the eyes are there, so you do 533 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: have to make eye contact with it, so you can't 534 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: completely forget that it's a living organism. I don't know, uh, 535 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: it's uh. I have no idea. So I was trying 536 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: to find examples in nature of wild organisms that mimic 537 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: raw meat in reality, and it did find a few 538 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: that are that are very interesting. Now one, I don't 539 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: know if it mimics raw meat for any reason, but 540 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: it does look very cool. There's a species of fungus 541 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: that is known as Fistilina hepatica. It's a fungus with 542 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: a fruiting body that's often said to look like beef steak, 543 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: or like beef liver, or like ox tongue, and it 544 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: really really does look a lot like raw liver meat, 545 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: especially sometimes when you cut it open. The name hepatica 546 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: in the species name comes from the word for liver. 547 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: I've read that it's found in parts of Europe, in Africa, 548 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: and North America. I think I've mainly seen it referred 549 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: to as growing in like the British Isles, but I 550 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: included a cross section for you to look at here, 551 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: Rob And I don't know when you cut it open, 552 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: it looks like wag you beef. Yeah, it does look 553 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: like meat. Yeah, it looks like flesh. Look flash if 554 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: you will, yes, And when you cut it, apparently it will. 555 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: It will have a red juice that runs from it, 556 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: just like the myoglobin running out of a you know, 557 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: a raw steak that you'd cut open. It is edible, 558 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: at least in some growth stages, and sometimes has been 559 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: used in cooking. But I don't know. I've seen differing 560 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: accounts on different websites. I was looking at some I'm saying, yeah, 561 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a good mushroom. It's a it's 562 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: a choice product. I've seen other things kind of negging 563 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: its taste and texture, saying that it's kind of tough 564 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: and sour, acidic tasting. I'm a pretty adventurous eater, by 565 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: the way, and it it does look like like something 566 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: I would be hesitant to to bite into. Um well, 567 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: I mean with all things mushroom related, Um, you know, 568 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: I would want somebody to vouch for it that it 569 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: isn't you know, to me personally, and make sure I'm 570 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: following some sort of instructions on preparation. But I mean, 571 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: I'd give it a shot. I would like to try 572 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: the meat of the look flesh creature. Sure, whatever reality 573 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: it takes. Now, as I said a minute ago, I 574 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: could not find any evidence that its resemblance to raw 575 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: meat is at all adaptive. It seems like it's probably 576 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: just a coincidence that it looks like we're all meat. 577 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: This is a parasitic fungus that grows on living or 578 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: dead woods such as oak. But there are organisms that 579 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: resemble raw meat that absolutely do so for evolutionary reasons 580 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: where it is not just a coincidence. Probably the most 581 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: exciting example is the genre of plants that are widely 582 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: known as carrion flowers that probably the most famous of 583 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: which is the titan aurum also known as the amorphophallus 584 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: or a Morphofilus titanum, which parts that name for a minute, 585 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: It basically means like huge, weird fallus and then these 586 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: are very impressive looking flowers. Yeah, amazing. So the Amorphophallus 587 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: titanum is a giant, gigantic flowering plant that's native to Sumatra. 588 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: It only blooms usually once every two to ten years 589 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: in the wild, and each bloom only lasts about a 590 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: day in the wild, so it's reproductive window is is 591 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: extremely narrow compared to its total lifespan, and when it opens, 592 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,959 Speaker 1: it unfurls this giant ring of something that looks like 593 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: flower petals, but they're not actually petals. It's a type 594 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: of modified leaf tissue called a space, but it looks 595 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: almost exactly like glistening raw beef. And the blooming corpse 596 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: flower here emits a smell of rotting meat. It actually 597 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: emits a complex bouquet of smells, but one of the 598 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: dominant aromas within that is the smell of rotting meat 599 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: in order to attract insects that are normally either carryon 600 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: feeders or would be flies looking to lay their larva 601 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: and a rotting corpse of something in the forest. These 602 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: are the plant's pollinators. So by admitting the smell of 603 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: meat and looking like meat, it draws in things that 604 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: are trying to find some dead meat in the forest. 605 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: They crawl all over it, they get the pollen of 606 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: the flant on their little legs and bodies, and then 607 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: they carry that off to another big old flower that 608 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: smells like meat. So it's rotten meat sex. But you know, 609 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: one can imagine that if you encountered something like this 610 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: you you might think, well, this is limitless meat, this 611 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: is meat growing like a plant. Um. So. And of 612 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: course this makes me think of of all of our 613 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: various modern enterprises involving you know, artificial meat, synthetic flesh, 614 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: synthetic flesh. Um, but also um, you know that grown meat, etcetera. 615 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: Like it's it's kind of all an attempt to to 616 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: make the look flesh creature a reality. I wonder if 617 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: every time we say synthetic flesh, that's gonna draw up 618 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: that that doctor x Q in there synthetic flesh. I 619 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: hope so. UM. I also have to say, as far 620 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 1: as like weird mushrooms go, there's a lot of mushroom 621 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: descriptions in the shan haijing Uh. For instance, the mushroom 622 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: people show up in the burrow translation. There are a 623 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: lot of different types of people. But there's also a 624 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: mushroom dog at one point, which I don't think. I 625 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: kind of interested. Oh yeah, it's in there, mushroom dog. 626 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: Tell me about the mushroom dog. Um. I think it 627 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: was more it was one of these things where it's 628 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: not I don't think it's actually a dog that's made 629 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 1: out of mushrooms or is like a or grows like 630 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: a mushroom. It's something to do with like the description 631 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: of the of the animal. I was gonna try to see, 632 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: can you get a shelf stable like dried mushroom dog 633 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: that you reconstitute? No, I know, but that would be 634 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: that sounds like I would be in line with the 635 00:35:51,320 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 1: look flesh creature for sure. Right, Let's look at another creature. 636 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: This next one is called the zoe wo um, which 637 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: Barrel translates as escort my. But here's the Strasburg translation 638 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 1: for this description. In the land of the Lynn clan 639 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: is a rare beast as large as a tiger, five colored, 640 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: and with a tail longer than its body. It is 641 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,359 Speaker 1: called the zoe wo when writing it, one can cover 642 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: one thousand lee in a single day. Uh so, And 643 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: then Barrel's translation is virtually the same, except with a 644 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,760 Speaker 1: different term for it. So this is a fabulous animal 645 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: in the in the illustrations that Strasburg provides, it looks 646 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: kind of like a a fierce horse. I guess you 647 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: would say it looks kind of like a horse with 648 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: a with a dog like face. Yeah, it's a It's 649 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: a fabulous animal that pops up in other texts as well, 650 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: including the Ancient Book of Songs, and it's sometimes described 651 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: as being white with black stripes, as being a righteous 652 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: animal that is either strictly vegetarian or is only eating 653 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: the meat of animals that have died of natural causes. 654 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,399 Speaker 1: And so there's apparently been some discussion that this could 655 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: have been in some way connected to the panda. They 656 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: could have been based on descriptions of the panda, or 657 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: you know. It kind of then takes on a life 658 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: of its own in the same way that the kailin 659 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: has been linked to giraffes. And interestingly enough, one of 660 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: these magical creatures is depicted in one of the Fantastic 661 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: Beasts movies. Um, I don't think it looks particularly panda 662 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: ask in those, but uh they made it look otherworldly 663 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: and weird for sure. Now, in the last episode I 664 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: mentioned in Passing the Land of Google, which which Barrel mentioned, 665 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: so of course I had to read more and find 666 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,919 Speaker 1: out what's up with the Land of of Google, which 667 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: is also known as may Uh. So this is what 668 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: Beryl has in her translation the Land of Google. The 669 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: beings there have a human body with a black head, 670 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: and their eyes are said vertically in their face vertical eyes. Yeah, 671 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: and she she writes that. A parallel passage in a 672 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: fifth century BC text describes the inhabitants of Ghoul as 673 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: having poor sign heads the heads of pigs with vertical eyes, 674 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,919 Speaker 1: but also loose hair, which I'm guessing means like wildish hair, 675 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: and Strasburg discusses them as the may hobgoblins, sometimes associated 676 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: with other creatures, the Chai hobgoblins and the wang ling 677 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: the wangling goblins. Uh So they're all dangerous creatures that 678 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: lurk in the wilds, and if you happen to be 679 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: an unwary traveler, they might jump out and attack you. Uh. 680 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: I think I've mentioned before, Like, you know, obviously the 681 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: words goblin and hobgoblin are are English language words and 682 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: Western words that have been um put into you know, 683 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: we're engaging in transliteration here. But but still there's something 684 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: about there's something that a goblin is that feels universal. 685 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 1: There's something like a goblin in every culture. Now would 686 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: that extend to the fact that there's a troll too 687 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: in every culture? I don't know, but I mean troll ogre. 688 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: These are other terms you often find in translations of 689 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: of of mythic and folklore texts from you know, from 690 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: from various Western cultures, but also from from Eastern cultures. 691 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: You know, when when describing things like there's the there, 692 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: the there these, there's the ogre, there's the giant, there's 693 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: the dragon, like these are kind of the the basic 694 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: forms that a lot of our stories revolve around. Now, 695 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: just briefly, there is, uh, there's one creature that, in 696 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: Strasbourg's translation, was referred to as the Brave pig. And 697 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: I really like that name. Yeah, yeah, this one so 698 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: um apparently how she it literally means hero pig. Uh, so, 699 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: brave pig, hero pig um. But as to what it 700 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: actually is, it seems like it's a porcupine. There's a 701 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: lot of discussion that is just a porcupine. Uh, this 702 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: is the barrel translation. There is an animal on this 703 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: mountain which looks like a hog, but it has white 704 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: hair that is as long as a large hairpin and 705 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:06,399 Speaker 1: black at the tips. Its name is the porcupine. Um. 706 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, I like that. The brave pig, the porcupine. 707 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: I can see it, you know, Strasberg mentions in his 708 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: commentary on the Brave pig that it has been regarded 709 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: by many commentators as just a porcupine. This is like 710 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: the mundane animal of porcupine being described here. Um. But 711 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: he does mention that go pu in his early commentary 712 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: on the Classic Road about this and said that the 713 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: brave pig was several feet in length and that it 714 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: shot its quills at things. Now, this is interesting because 715 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,919 Speaker 1: I was still under the mistaken impression that the porcupine can, yeah, 716 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 1: shoot its squills from a distance. But apparently that's not true. 717 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: Strasberg mentions this, and I looked it up. There's apparently 718 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: not actually evidence that the porcupine can shoot its quills 719 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,800 Speaker 1: from a distance. A lot of things I think just 720 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: run up to a porcupine and get its squills stuck 721 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: in their snout or their nose or something, and then 722 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, run squealing off, but it doesn't actually shoot 723 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: them like a projectile. Huh. Yeah. I wonder where that 724 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: exactly comes from. If it's is it based in just 725 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: people winding up with with porcupine quills stuck in them 726 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: and and and needing to alter the story. So I 727 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: don't know. I didn't try to touch it. No, it 728 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: shot at the abbey. It jumped out of the out 729 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: of the edge of the woods. It shot me with quills, 730 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 1: and then it ran away. I mean, it does kind 731 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,839 Speaker 1: of remind me of how you ever seen the phenomenon 732 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: of a kid is being overly rough with a pet 733 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: and then the pet kind of lashes out at them, 734 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: and then the kid immediately starts saying, like it jumped 735 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,839 Speaker 1: at me, it was being mean, you know, like they're 736 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,240 Speaker 1: they're all like, within seconds trying to change the story 737 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: to the pet being the aggressor Oh yeah, yeah, children, 738 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: children versus pets. That old, that old rivalry, you know, 739 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: just by association that they're talking about the porcupine. This 740 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,399 Speaker 1: also made me want to briefly mention another creature that 741 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: Strasburg translates as the thoroughly odd like thoroughly hyphen odd, 742 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: or chung chi, And so the translation goes, two hundred 743 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: sixty lee farther west stands Mount Gui. There is a 744 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,760 Speaker 1: beast dwelling on its heights, whose form resembles an ox 745 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: with the needles of a way porcupine. It is called 746 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: chung chi, and it makes a sound like a dog howling. 747 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: It is a man eater, So like that's the last 748 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,359 Speaker 1: line there, it's yeah, it's got needles. It's like an 749 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 1: ox needles like a porcupine, howls like a dog, and 750 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: it eats people. And so Strasberg says that the thoroughly 751 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: Odd is said to eat people who wear long hair untied, 752 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: which he says is culturally interesting because that is the 753 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,839 Speaker 1: style that was believed at the time to be characteristic 754 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: of demons and of shaman's Yes, I read that. Yeah, yeah, 755 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 1: and that's interesting because of the thing we talked about 756 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: in the last episode. Uh or actually no, I guess 757 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: we didn't really get into this in depth, but the 758 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: idea that uh or the question of where a lot 759 00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: of this knowledge that's recorded in the Classic of the 760 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: Mount since He's comes from, some of it may have 761 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,479 Speaker 1: been collected from traditions that were part of the sort 762 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 1: of the smaller, more localized shaman leadership culture of ancient 763 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: China that was over time replaced by by more central 764 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: or imperialist rule. Yeah. I mean, you can imagine someone 765 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: traveling out to these different areas and saying, Okay, well, 766 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: what do you guys believe out here? Which gods do 767 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,839 Speaker 1: you worship? And sometimes they're the same gods or some 768 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: of the same gods, but with you know, different twists 769 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: and turns and how they presented. Other times they're they're 770 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: different dentities entirely, and then asking well, what kind of 771 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: creatures are out here? What kind of strange creatures are 772 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 1: out here? What do they do? What do they look like? Uh? Yeah, 773 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: and apparently this one it likes to eat people with 774 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: the hairstyle that would have been common of shamans and 775 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: of demons. Uh. Also, Strasburg says that sometimes the victims 776 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 1: are consumed beginning with the head. Some sources start with that. 777 00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 1: Other versions say that they are consumed beginning with the feet. Um, 778 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 1: which he says, you know, that could be a result 779 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 1: of differences in early translations, like one translation of the 780 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,760 Speaker 1: classics says one way and other translations is a different way. Um. 781 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: But then there are several interesting things here. So he 782 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: says the thoroughly odd was historic sized as another untalented 783 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: son of a the arc the lesser Brilliance in a 784 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: passage in Zoe's Narratives, the same passage that mentioned the 785 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: hounda and remember the idea of the evil version of 786 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: the Honda, and as this like bad offspring of the 787 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 1: the Arc. Well, here we've got the thoroughly Odd as 788 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 1: the untalented son of the Arc, which makes me think 789 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: of the comparison to the Gnostic demiurge or the Gnostic 790 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: you know, like Yaldaba Oath, the bad god who created 791 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 1: the world, who was like the the crappy son of 792 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: a higher being. Right, and of course you can't help 793 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 1: but compare that to um to the human world, right, 794 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,319 Speaker 1: like the like the good for nothing prints in any 795 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 1: given scenario, right the guy to the new CEO of 796 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 1: the company taken over for his dad, and as everybody's 797 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,759 Speaker 1: just like oh no. And then finally, Strasburg just notes 798 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: that there are other descriptions of the thoroughly Odd in 799 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 1: different sources and places throughout his history. There's a place 800 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 1: where he's referred to as a tiger with wings. There 801 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: are other places where the thoroughly Odd is said to 802 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,399 Speaker 1: be quote a perverse creature who devours those who are 803 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,359 Speaker 1: loyal and trustworthy, but offers freshly killed meat to the 804 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: evil and rebellious, perhaps because an alternate version of this 805 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 1: text describes him as having a human body with a 806 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,800 Speaker 1: dog's head and is making a sound like a dog 807 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 1: go poo in an encomium pronounced him a divine dog. Mhm. 808 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, I like this idea of he's a perverse 809 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: deity who goes out and he like eats good people. 810 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: But if you're bad, he'll bring you meat. Oh man, 811 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: that is indeed thoroughly odd. Alright, Well, we have I 812 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: think one more to discuss here, that is um. And 813 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,320 Speaker 1: again the book is filled with creatures that are mentioned 814 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,360 Speaker 1: with a fair amount of a little bit of depth 815 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:08,360 Speaker 1: or otherwise just in passing. It's it's God's it's fantastic creatures, 816 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:14,280 Speaker 1: it's fantastic descriptions of commonplace creatures. It's uh, it's passing 817 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: references to things like the uh like like the synthetic 818 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: flesh creature that we talked about earlier, synthetic flesh. Um. 819 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,399 Speaker 1: So there's just all sorts of stuff in there, things 820 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: that that were animals, things that might have been animal, 821 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 1: real life animals, and then everything else you can imagine. 822 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 1: But this last one here is the juon, the Vermilion 823 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 1: yon beast, and it's described as an ape with a 824 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,360 Speaker 1: white head and red feet, and it's an omen of 825 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 1: great war if glimpsed by humans. Strasburg writes the go 826 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,880 Speaker 1: Poo pondered that this was one of the beasts along 827 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:56,240 Speaker 1: with the fushi bird that quote marked the boundaries of reason. 828 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,919 Speaker 1: And so Strasburg quotes the poet go Pou here, Uh, 829 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,000 Speaker 1: this is a nice little translation, has a nice flow 830 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,800 Speaker 1: to it. Quote the fushi and the vermilion yon beast 831 00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: you've seen mean war different species, identical elect a cosmic 832 00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: pattern one cannot ignore. It must be in their nature 833 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: to be so. But their method is too subtle to explore. Okay, 834 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: so we know what they mean, but we can't say why. 835 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 1: Don't even ask. Yeah. And the illustration that the Strasbourg 836 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: includes from the old text here, um, it just looks 837 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 1: kind of like a monkey. I guess there's nothing that's 838 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,840 Speaker 1: not really one of the more elaborate illustrations. Uh, but 839 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 1: it is a monkey that you do not want to 840 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,360 Speaker 1: see because it's just a dire omen uh. And of 841 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,000 Speaker 1: course that's something that pops up with a lot of 842 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: these creatures described. You know, it's about what does it 843 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,919 Speaker 1: look like? What does it do? Um? If you can 844 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: eat it, what that will do for you medicinally, but 845 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,759 Speaker 1: then also sometimes like just seeing them, what that does 846 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: for you? What what is it? Is it an omen? Uh? 847 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: Does it mean that something good will happen, There'll be 848 00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:59,919 Speaker 1: a bumper crop, or will there be a great war? 849 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,600 Speaker 1: As the Lost Boys saying, I'm the monkey that you've 850 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 1: always been afraid of? Yeah, pretty much, Well, Robert, I 851 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,719 Speaker 1: have so enjoyed this journey through the classic of the 852 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,359 Speaker 1: mountains and the seas. Yeah, this has been fun. And 853 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,560 Speaker 1: uh yeah, I for anyone out there who's interested, you 854 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:19,520 Speaker 1: can you can definitely get English translations of the shan Haijing. Um. 855 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,799 Speaker 1: We mentioned the Strasbourg and the Barrel. Those are both 856 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 1: definitely affordable texts, but there are other illustrated There are 857 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: other illustrated versions as well. There are other translations available. 858 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,279 Speaker 1: Uh so, yeah, dive into it. They're even some you know, 859 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 1: good resources online, people doing uh you know, creature breakdowns 860 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 1: and lists and their own illustrations on some of these. 861 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,040 Speaker 1: And of course some of these names and entities have 862 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: taken on new life and in fictions as well. I 863 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,919 Speaker 1: was running across some of that when I was researching, Um, 864 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,120 Speaker 1: you know, these various entities that pop up. Now, obviously 865 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from everyone out there. Uh, do 866 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,560 Speaker 1: you have anything additional to to add about about the 867 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,960 Speaker 1: shan Haijing, about any of the creatures and entities that 868 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: we discussed in this episode. Uh. Even so, we would 869 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:03,759 Speaker 1: love to hear from you, even if you maybe you're 870 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:05,279 Speaker 1: an artist and you want to give a give it 871 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: a crack and draw the Hundun or some other creature. 872 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:10,560 Speaker 1: Do so, we'd love to take a look at it. 873 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,799 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I wonder if we can get a show 874 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,960 Speaker 1: T shirt with the Hundun or the young that I 875 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,320 Speaker 1: would be That would be very interesting. Yeah, I'd be 876 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:23,000 Speaker 1: up for it. Hunding stickers to just put everywhere and nowhere, 877 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 1: all right. In the meantime, if you want to listen 878 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,799 Speaker 1: to other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, uh, 879 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,600 Speaker 1: you know where to find them. In the Stuff to 880 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind feed. You can find that wherever you 881 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,320 Speaker 1: get your podcasts and you get your core episodes of 882 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,319 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, Uh, 883 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: Monday's we try to do a listener mail Wednesday, usually 884 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,520 Speaker 1: an artifact episode. In Friday, we do Weird How Cinema, 885 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,799 Speaker 1: which is just our chance to focus on weird films. Uh, 886 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,960 Speaker 1: And wherever you happen to listen to the podcast wherever 887 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,440 Speaker 1: you get it. We just asked the you rate, review 888 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,480 Speaker 1: and subscribe if the platform gives you the power to 889 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 1: do so, you just thinks. As always to our excellent 890 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,960 Speaker 1: audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to 891 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this up 892 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,080 Speaker 1: so it or any other to suggest a topic for 893 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,400 Speaker 1: the future, just to say hello, you can email us 894 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:15,160 Speaker 1: at contact at Stuff to Blow Your Mind, Doctor, Stuff 895 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,400 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 896 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,880 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i 897 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to 898 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:35,399 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.