1 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: A prominent legal dynasty in South Carolina's Low Country is 2 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: obliterated by murder by somebody inside the family. Alec Murdoch 3 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: was convicted of the double murder of his wife and 4 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: youngest son, Margaret and Paul. Alex's father, grandfather, and great 5 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: grandfather were all prosecutors for over ninety years at the 6 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: time of the murder. The legacy was set to continue 7 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: because Aleck was a current lawyer and his oldest son, Bubba, 8 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: was in law school. The double murder trial was right 9 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: out of Central casting for a Southern courtroom scene. Granddad 10 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: portrait hung in the courthouse right there on the wall. 11 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: There were nicknames, there was the lifestyle. Everybody's come to understand. 12 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: Drugs were involved, scams were involved, other possible murders were involved, 13 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: and then there was the accents. The Low Country was 14 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: on full display and the drama honey It unfolded over 15 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: money scamming, murder for hire, financial crimes. It was just 16 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: a lattice of suspicious deaths tied to this pillar of 17 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: the community. It was a morass of a case. Six 18 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: weeks of testimony, six weekshaw and they found Alec Murdau guilty. 19 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: The defense at trial said the state had built a 20 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: case on quote, theories and conjecture. But then there was 21 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: a video. And on that video that was taken on 22 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: Paul's phone, the victim, the youngest child. You could hear 23 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: three voices clearly, Paul, Margaret and Alec. And Alec had 24 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: said he wasn't there, he didn't see them prior to 25 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: the murders, and yet there it was. It blew his 26 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: alibi to pieces. That was February the first. Then on 27 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 1: the twenty third of February, Alick took the stand and 28 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: again his facial expressions, his demeanor, the nicknames that he 29 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: would use, the crime. It was literally out of a movie. 30 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: I made a prediction on the Nancy Gray Show that 31 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: the jury would return a verdict quick. I said it 32 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: would be within three hours. It was three hours and 33 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: some change, and I was confident that they would convict 34 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: him as a killer. The clerk read the verdict, the 35 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: foreman stood and said, yes, this is our verdict. The 36 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: jury was then pulled and the judge said, is this 37 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: your individual verdict? Was this your vote? Did anybody influence you? 38 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: Yes or no? But it ain't over. Clerk Hill was 39 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: accused by juror z of influencing her decision. Y'all know him, 40 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: y'all love him, and honey, we need him on this 41 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: labyrinth of legal lunacy. I have never seen such in 42 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: my entire career. Fame defense attorney regular on Court TV 43 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: with Judge Ashley. He's one of the most positive people 44 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: I know, Joshua Schiffer, Honey, come help us with this thing. 45 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: And as beautiful as your description is, it's really just 46 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: the tip, isn't it It is? 47 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 3: This story is so big and it keeps getting So 48 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: we did the Epstein case of you years ago and 49 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: that was huge and we played, you know, a role 50 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 3: in it. 51 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: That is the only other case I've been involved in 52 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: in over twenty years that even comes close to the 53 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 2: number of different pathways of stories in this Because when 54 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 2: you talk about the pillar of the community, y'all, y'all 55 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: ain't been to the South. You just it's hard to 56 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: comprehend how orderly and set these societies are, and how 57 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: the roles in these societies are celebrated by all of 58 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: the institutions, from the lowest of the low to the 59 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: highest of the high. There's this very specific culture that 60 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: is the rural South magnified even more by this being 61 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 2: the low Country, And for those of you who are 62 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 2: unfamiliar with the low Country, it's really that coastal area 63 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: South Carolina, North Carolina, the little bit of Georgia and 64 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: North Florida, which has a very uni unique and special 65 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: culture based upon hundreds of years of development, and it's 66 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 2: just it's different from the rest of America. So when 67 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: we talk about a pillar of the community, the Murdaws 68 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: were the law. If there was an issue, one of 69 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 2: them was going to be involved, either prosecuting, defending, being 70 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: a judge, being that backdoor consultant, being the expert witness, 71 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 2: bringing in their massive network, because just because they're in 72 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: South Carolina doesn't mean they don't have friends all over 73 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 2: the nation. And then to see this story unfold with 74 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 2: the twist and turns, no one could have predicted that 75 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 2: we find ourselves now having listened to one of the 76 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: most intriguing and fascinating hearings I've ever heard in my 77 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 2: entire career this week. 78 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: And you and I were in communication as this entire 79 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: thing was unfolding, and my mind was just blo because 80 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: prior to this I kept up a little bit about 81 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: the allegations, and there was one juror that said, oh, 82 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: I was influenced by what the clerk said and she 83 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: had told us to watch his body language and all. 84 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: And my sisters were all upset. They were like, how 85 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: how can he get a new trial? They just believed 86 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: that first jury. And I was like, look, he's not 87 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: going to get a new trial, because this is what 88 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: was in my head. You were pulled, You were asked 89 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: under oath, did anybody influence you over this six week 90 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: period of time. They never came forward. They didn't say 91 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: anything under oath. They didn't say yes. They wait, and 92 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: now she is making this allegation. And I'm like, look, 93 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: she was either lying when she got pulled or she's 94 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: lying now, and it kind of cancels each other out. 95 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: But then Josh Hill took the stand. 96 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 2: Man, I've seen stuff that I couldn't ever predict. And 97 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: you know that fiction has nothing on real life, but 98 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: what we witnessed this week just boggles the imagination. They 99 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,239 Speaker 2: literally had to create pathways to have this herd bringing 100 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:22,239 Speaker 2: in a retired Supreme Court justice, who, in her ruling, 101 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: spun the story even more because we had one of 102 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 2: the most respected judicial voices in the state basically say, Hey, 103 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: I don't think the clerk was being honest. I don't 104 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: trust her testimon WHOA stop the presses. But it's still 105 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 2: not enough to give a new trial because the evidence 106 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: against mister Murda was so overwhelmed. What you didn't get 107 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: to hear You read the transcript, but you weren't the 108 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: trial judge, and you just said that one of the 109 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: key stakehold their testimony. You just elicited that testimony was 110 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: disingenuous and not to be believed. 111 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: And that is the part that slap made dead in 112 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: the head. And let me say you and I know 113 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: how many clerks. Never never has a clerk had the 114 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: opportunity to talk to jurors by themselves. Let me tell 115 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: you something. When I'm at the courthouse and I even 116 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: see somebody with a sticker, because in Fulton County they 117 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: wear a sticker, I am a jury member, I will 118 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: not get on the elevator with them. 119 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 2: Exactly. It's the kryptonite of the court system. Jurors are 120 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 2: special and sacred, and man, you don't want to do 121 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: anything appearance and propriety throw that out the window. You 122 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: don't even want to give him a chance for appearance 123 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: of m pride. I don't want to eat imperia. I 124 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 2: don't want to talk to you. I don't want somebody 125 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 2: to say he said something to her, or was rude 126 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: to her, or was not room to her. You don't 127 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 2: want anything ever coming up on the record. And that's 128 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 2: when we get to this absurdity of the fact that 129 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: she was pulled. Everybody Jersey was polled. And if you 130 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 2: don't know what that means, she stood up in court 131 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 2: upon the pronouncement of the jury and confirmed, under direct 132 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 2: sworn individual testimony that no one had influenced her. And 133 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: it's a sacred moment. It's not loud, there's not thirty 134 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: other people to no, it's just you and the judge 135 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 2: and the court reporter in front of everybody. And for 136 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: that change to happen, that's shocking on behalf of the Jersey. 137 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: But then compounded with Becky Hill's indefensible actions throughout this 138 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: entire trial, I'm disgusted. I know a lot of people 139 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: in the court system are infuriated that it would eve 140 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 2: and be considerable for a court employ with a sacred 141 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 2: obligation and legal duty to be planning the book to 142 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 2: be planning the profiteering that goes against your fundamental duties 143 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: in carrying out what you've been appointed or electing too. 144 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: But to mess it up with a jury of such 145 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 2: an important case, it's mind boggling. It is career suicide. 146 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: And to me again, how how did this break down 147 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: so bad? Her job is to sit right there next 148 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 1: to the judge. The jury is escorted in and out 149 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: by sheriff's deputies. You should never cross paths. You should 150 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: never ever have an opportunity to be alone, much less 151 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: walk in that room and start telling people. Watch his 152 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: body language. This shouldn't take y'all along. Y'all know he's guilty. 153 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: What where are. 154 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 2: The watchers watching? You know? I've got deputy, these deputies, 155 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: So many of my deputies are insistent on fairness because 156 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: they've seen the good and the bad. You think, Matt 157 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 2: and I watch court, that's enough Compared to a deputy. 158 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 2: Deputies get one thousand hours of court a year, and 159 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 2: they'd seen it all the good, the bad, the ugly, 160 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 2: the fair and the awful. I am blown away that 161 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 2: the deputies had they noticed anything, didn't say something. But 162 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: then I get into questioning the local cultures of these 163 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: local courthouses, and you've been in them too, and guess 164 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: what they're all. They're going to work there every day 165 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 2: for the next years. So I'm not going to go 166 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: right on them on somebody. Al It wasn't that big. 167 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 2: He's good. But there's big questions that I have there 168 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: about the institution of court, how they're functioning. And I 169 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: really wonder how other courts are going to process this, 170 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 2: because if I'm at the United States Criminal Courts Association 171 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: convention and this is a hot topic this year. 172 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: My parents were from a really small town and my 173 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: great grandfather was the prosecutor. Everybody went to high school 174 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: with him, worked with him, lived next door to him, 175 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: went to church with him. I get it. I get 176 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: the connections, and this just web of This is our world. 177 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: This is how we operate. Every lawyer in that state 178 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: knew Alec Murdall. Everybody knew his defense attorneys. Everybody knows 179 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: the prosecutor. I understand. But the other thing is every 180 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: single one of them, including miss Hill, took an oath. 181 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: There used to be a great billboard and I want 182 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: to say it was the army, I don't remember, but 183 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: it was an armed services, I believe, and the billboard 184 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: said you had like a resume for your job, I 185 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: took an oath for mine. It separates you. 186 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 2: It does. When you have unwaivable mandatory duties that are 187 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 2: inherent to the completion of your job. Man, you don't 188 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,359 Speaker 2: play around with that, and to violate them so willingly, 189 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: openly and carelessly really sends a message of what I 190 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 2: think is really important from the ten thousand foot existential view, 191 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: which is the integrity of the system. Because I don't 192 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 2: know what's going to happen in the future. I think 193 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: the appellate Court's going to weigh in here. Who knows 194 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: whether mister Murdock gets another trial or not. But for 195 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 2: a certain part of the community, this is the asterisk 196 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 2: on our justice system because we didn't fulfill the promises strictly. 197 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 2: We didn't abide by our o's completely. And if you've 198 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: got that, you've got to question the integrity of the 199 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:07,079 Speaker 2: whole process despite all the good, despite the overwhelming evidence. 200 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 2: What good is that if we I don't want to 201 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: say cheated, but how far can we bend the rules 202 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 2: and pat them on the top of the head and 203 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 2: go just go along? Now, that's what we call justice. 204 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: Like the song the night the lights went out in Georgia. 205 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: Oh it's about supper time. Let's wrap this up. I mean, 206 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: that's why I said it's right out of Central casting. 207 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: If you are trying to show a Southern courthouse, they 208 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: just did it. 209 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: It really is. And I'm fascinating to see what the 210 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: Court of Appeals is going to do. The justice when 211 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 2: she ruled, obviously a brilliant woman, and she had put 212 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: enormous thought into how she wanted to resolve the instant issue, 213 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: and she walked into a battlefield. She had really good 214 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: reasons to feel one way or or another. She has 215 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: a really strong loyalty and fidelity to the system of justice, 216 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 2: and that's exactly what she backed up, and that's exactly 217 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: what she supported. And I don't like how awkward it is, 218 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: and I don't like how it is not pretty and proper, 219 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 2: but I do respect that she knows the process, knows 220 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: what the goal is, and is using the Court of 221 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 2: Appeals properly because the language that she used specifically was 222 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: clearly pulled straight from case law, and she is setting 223 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: up the appellate issues as cleanly as possible to allow 224 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 2: those judges at the Court of Appeals, the Supreme Court 225 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: of South Carolina, and then if this moves over to 226 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: federal court on procedural issues, the federal system, because it 227 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: is it is unambiguous what has happened, at least from 228 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: the facts at this stage. But then again we've got 229 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: to add what's going on in the background. The rumor 230 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: mill is on fire. There are allegations of chicanery and 231 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 2: shenanigans involving every single one of the lawyers except for 232 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: Creighton Waters. Creating Waters has been a rock of stability 233 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 2: and integrity. I would be ripping out my hair if 234 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: I was in his office. I'd be screaming bloody murder. 235 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 2: I won't be surprised if mister Waters has spoken to 236 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 2: other prosecutors and miss Hill faces some sort of sanction, 237 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 2: whether criminal or civil or what. But her active threat 238 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: and damage to such an important case is indefensible. And 239 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 2: I don't know a prosecutor that would stand fire and 240 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: say that she doesn't deserve some sort of of discipline 241 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 2: or some other sanction. And I don't believe she's fit 242 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 2: to carry the office. Now that it's been determined that 243 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 2: her testimony was found disingenuous, by properly installed judge and you. 244 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: Know Crichton Waters, You're correct, he has been rock solid. 245 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: To have somebody that you've worked with every day that 246 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: you've come to trust and understand and everybody knows the 247 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: protocol and again for the ethics and the laws and 248 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: the standards and the safeguards to all break down, to 249 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: all fail at the same time. When this is the 250 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 1: biggest stage y'all are going to be on. It's it's 251 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: an atrocity, it really is. 252 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: And I know that we are using lots of hyperbole, 253 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 2: but this deserves it. This is the case that shakes 254 00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 2: and cracks the foundations of our institutions because I can 255 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 2: hear every single person that received negative treatment in a 256 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 2: contested matter from this court having a legitimate right. And 257 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: that's the guy that got convicted on a horrific crime saying, hey, 258 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 2: wonder what she was doing during my case. That goes 259 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 2: to the civil people arguing about medical malpractice, arguing about 260 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: government issues such as policy trust. There are so many 261 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 2: people now that we're on the wrong end of a 262 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 2: decision that are sour that now look at the court 263 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: system and say, aha, see told you see look at 264 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 2: how our court system failed, and there's no remedy for me. 265 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 2: No one's gonna listen to me. And I'll go to 266 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: my grave knowing that Becky Hill ruined my chance at 267 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: justice because that's what they do in South Carolina, and 268 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 2: it's hard to tell him no in the face of 269 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: an open hearing where a major justice just called out 270 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: the clerk and we all watched her testimony. Come on, now, 271 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 2: miss Hill is no actress. 272 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: But Joshua, what if other doors come forward and say 273 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: she said the same thing to me? She said something 274 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: similar to me exactly. 275 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: I was joking with a couple of my friends about 276 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 2: how we need to start a letter campaign to the 277 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 2: wealthy inmates of South Carolina, saying, hey, it's been shown 278 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 2: that South Carolina clerk's just disregard the sacred rules of 279 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: how we try cases. If you'd like to pay a 280 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: bunch of money, I'll file a whole mess of paperwork, 281 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,959 Speaker 2: because that's how the system's supposed to work. I know 282 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 2: people are gonna go, oh, josh that's gross, that's not no. 283 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: That's how you and that change. Our litigation system is 284 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 2: the product of thousands of fights where both sides had 285 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 2: real issues. Outside sometimes have terrible issues, but it's that 286 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 2: fire and the process of the fight that perfects our 287 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 2: system even more. And the worry here is that we 288 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 2: didn't perfect our system more with this ruling, and to 289 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 2: perfect our system, we're going to have to get down 290 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 2: to the Court of Appeal, Supreme Court in a federal 291 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: system to get to the bottom of it, with whatever 292 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 2: evidence comes up. 293 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: The first issue that I have, and you've kind of 294 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: already touched on it, but I just want to be 295 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: super clear. She wrote that book mighty fast, so that 296 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: says to me she was working on it just about 297 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: every night, without a doubt. And that leads me again, 298 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: I already think she violated her oath right then and there. 299 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: Because you want him to be found guilty so you 300 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: can sell more books. You don't want to hung jury. 301 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,239 Speaker 1: You don't want it not guilty. That's going to, you know, 302 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: give you a little ding in your sales. But when 303 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: she has to admit she plagiarized, Okay, I just got 304 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: to say this. If I was late meeting you for 305 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: lunch and I said, I'm so sorry, there was four thousand, 306 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: seven hundred and sixty eight people at the bank. I 307 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: was trying to get some money because I want to 308 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: buy your lunch. You understand that's poetic license. You understand 309 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: there weren't four thousand, seven hundred and sixty eight people 310 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: in that bank. You understand it was busy. If I 311 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: told you, well, you know, Joshua, I went to law 312 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: school too, that's a flat lie. And the two things 313 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: are not interchangeable. You can't say something that you know 314 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: good and well ain't true and call poetic license. 315 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: It's abuse of the phrase. If I'm the poets or 316 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 2: the licenses, I'm angry because it's so far beyond the 317 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 2: pal This isn't what my mom would call a little 318 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: white lie. You're not, you know, making up something to 319 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 2: just calm it down and keep moving on. No, if 320 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: she is writing a book for profit, knowing that she 321 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: is continuing to fulfill and have requirements of her duties 322 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 2: in court during the Trump every action she takes is 323 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 2: imputed with that profit motive, with that conflict because she 324 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: had a reason to want a specific result, and it's 325 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:27,719 Speaker 2: a reason that is unfortunately the most common of temptations money. 326 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 2: It's we're not having to deal with s oteric concepts 327 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: such as influence or power. No, it was just flat 328 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 2: out money. She's gonna write the best selling you know, 329 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: number one New York Times, gonna be preprinted at every 330 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 2: big box store for Christmas this year, on the biggest 331 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 2: murder in America this year, basically, And how is she 332 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 2: ever going to say I didn't have an interest in 333 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: the outcome. 334 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 4: I didn't have an interest in how the trial unflow. Heck, 335 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 4: if you want to get super deep, you know, conspiracy theory, 336 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 4: you can say that this is all just part of 337 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 4: a continuing conspiracy to sell a book, because now she 338 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 4: gets to write an addendum about how she was pilloried 339 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 4: by the cheats and the liars of the justice system 340 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 4: and private lawyers are making. 341 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: Up lies and bribing jurors. This story can keep going, 342 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 2: and it's mind boggling that the court wouldn't put a. 343 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 5: Stop to it. It's frustrating to be blunt. As much 344 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 5: as I'm convinced of his guilt, I may have questions 345 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 5: about the how, what, where, and why and. 346 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: Who else might have been involved. But I believe as 347 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 2: firmly as I can say it, he was one hundred 348 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 2: percent involved in the murder of his wife and son. 349 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 2: But what about next? They're going to keep this going 350 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: and he deserves a new trial because the system was 351 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 2: acknowledged to have been corrupted at the highest level. And therefore, 352 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 2: my opinion is that the jury verdict cannot stand. Yes, 353 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 2: it's terrible and wasteful and awful, and it's due to 354 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 2: a crime that basically was committed by Becky Hill and 355 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: violating her oaths and duties. And it's awful that South 356 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 2: Carolina should have to retry and retraumatize and respend those assets. 357 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 2: But guess what, I also believe Becky Hill should be 358 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 2: hit with a restitution order as part of some prosecution 359 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 2: or discipline process where she pays back every nickel from 360 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 2: that trial, an amount that I imagine is in the millions 361 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 2: of dollars. Miss Hill should never poke her head out 362 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 2: of the sand again in a professional context, as far 363 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 2: as i'm. 364 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: When I was commenting on this case and trying to 365 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: form my own opinion based on the evidence that was 366 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 1: coming out kind of piecemeal, I said, very clearly, you 367 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: have a wife and a son murdered. Those uncles weren't 368 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: demanding that law enforcement go find the killer. That community 369 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: wasn't petrified there was some craze killer going around shooting 370 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: people in their own yard. It seemed to me that 371 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: his family and the community accepted way before that he 372 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: was arrested, that he had something to do with it. 373 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: There was nobody else, means motive, opportunity. There was nobody else. 374 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: And when that video on Paul's phone came out, don't 375 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: I don't know what else you need. I don't know 376 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: what else you need. There's one thing I want you 377 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: to do, just for everybody's own edification, run us through 378 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: the sixth Amendment. I mean, everybody knows the first, the fourth, 379 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: the fifth, but a lot of times we don't talk 380 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: about the sixth because I heard people saying, why didn't 381 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: miss Hill take the fifth? Because that would have just. 382 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 2: It would have absolutely an admission of every so and 383 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 2: that's what I think a lot of people. The Fifth 384 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 2: Amendment has so many different facets to the diamond. It 385 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 2: is not just as easy as just shutting up and 386 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: sitting down. No, there are so many different implications that 387 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 2: come from the act of silence, and there's a lot 388 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 2: of litigation about it. You know, in Georgia here there's 389 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: a lot of litigation over A good way to understand 390 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 2: it is your refusal to submit to a test of 391 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 2: your blood breath or urine in a duy. Now, if 392 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 2: you refuse to take the test, should that come in 393 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: front of a jerk? And the argument is that your 394 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 2: refusal is basically an admission that you're too drunk to 395 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 2: drive and you know it, so you're not gonna take 396 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 2: a test, and there you go. Well, the Fifth Amendment goes, 397 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: that's not fair. Nothing you do or say under the 398 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: Georgia version of the Fifth Amendment and pretty much the 399 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 2: federal as well, can be used against you. So that 400 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 2: is why we exclude that refusal. And people sometimes are 401 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 2: struggling with that, but it's because you've got to avoid 402 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 2: any appearance of admission by action or in action. And 403 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 2: if she had gotten up there and said I'm not 404 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 2: gonna say anything, it would have been easy for every 405 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 2: single person to just realize, just like the mobsters in 406 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: the sixties, we know why you're taking the Fifth, and 407 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 2: it's awful that we jump there and believe that. But 408 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 2: the reason you take the fifth is generally pretty straightforward. 409 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 2: Now the sixth people don't know about it because it's, 410 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 2: like you said, it's not one of the ones people go, oh, 411 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to use that Amendment. Today, I'm gonna use 412 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 2: my freedom of speech, or my freedom of religion, or 413 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 2: right tomain sound, or be free from unreasonable searches, and said. 414 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: The sixth Amendment basically the guarantees the trial process. And 415 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 2: prior to the founding of America, the trial process was 416 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 2: a disaster. If you go back to the most seminal 417 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: government agreements, treaties, statements, magna carta, hammer, Robbie's Code way back, 418 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 2: the rights of the accused in a trial in an 419 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 2: accusation have evolved over thousands of years to get to 420 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 2: their highest form, which is, in my opinion, the United 421 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 2: States Constitution. It's because the focus is on the individual. 422 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 2: So what the sixth Amendment does is it guarantees your 423 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 2: trial rights. And these trial rights are clear, they are unambiguous. 424 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: They make a lot of sense to us because we've 425 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 2: been raised with these since childhood. But if you go 426 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: to another country that doesn't have due process, it still 427 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 2: has a king, that still has kangaroo courts where you're 428 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 2: never told what's going on, the sixth Amendment is just 429 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 2: a dream come true. So real quick. The sixth Amendment 430 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 2: is your public trial. You get an impartial jury, you 431 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 2: get Okay, so let me make sure I'm doing this 432 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 2: all exactly perfectly. Requires defendants be given notice the nature 433 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: and accusation against them. That's when you talk about arraignments 434 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 2: and what an arraignment really is. An arraignment is nothing 435 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 2: more than the government telling you very specifically what you 436 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 2: are being charged with. And the reason that it's got 437 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 2: to be told to you is so that you can 438 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 2: formulate a defense. And the charging document against you has 439 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 2: to be very specific. And if you hear the word 440 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 2: demuror common in how you fight cases, a demur is 441 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: fighting against that specific set of allegations in an indictment 442 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: or charging document because it has to be perfect in 443 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 2: form as well as substance. On other parts of the 444 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 2: six man confrontation clause, when you talk about how trials work, 445 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 2: if you can't confront the person making the accusation, then 446 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 2: you're just being tried by existence. You're being tried by presence. 447 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 2: You are being tried by allegation. Only. You must have 448 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 2: the opportunity to confront the person accusing you of a crime, 449 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 2: and that, in almost all states is going to be 450 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 2: law enforcement because law enforcement is specifically trained in how 451 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,719 Speaker 2: the law applies what requirements are necessary, and that's how 452 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 2: we get to things like warrants and indictments and accusations 453 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 2: and reports. All of that is governed by the sixth 454 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 2: Amendment and your right to confront and cross examined witnesses, 455 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 2: because if you can't question the person accusing you, how 456 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 2: can you ever show they are wrong or how they 457 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 2: are acting out of their wheelhouse, or are acting on 458 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 2: improper evidence, or do not have any evidence. We also 459 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 2: included this in the sixth minute. Has your Subpoena Power 460 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 2: process clause. That is, you get to use, if you're 461 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 2: accused of a crime, the power and process of the 462 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 2: court to compel the production of witnesses and evidence in 463 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: your own behalf. That means you can subpoena people. You 464 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 2: can use the power of the court with a judge 465 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 2: backing it up. As a defense attorney, I can get 466 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: the piece of paper, I can sign it, I can 467 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: hand it to somebody and get it served. And if 468 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 2: they don't follow it, there are punishments and consequences, including 469 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 2: arrest and incarceration. It is rare, but it does happen 470 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: that witnesses are retrieved by your local sheriff and deposited 471 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: in a local holding facility until their presence at court 472 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 2: can be satisfied. And you'll see that in cases. I 473 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 2: know the YSL case in Atlanta right now has at 474 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 2: least one or two witnesses that the Die's office is 475 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 2: chasing because they've been subpoened and are on the run. 476 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: Another portion of the sixth Amendment, of course, is my favorite, 477 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 2: getting versus reign Rate nineteen sixty three expanded in explored 478 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 2: the sixth Amendment and clarified your absolute right to an attorney. 479 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 2: You must have a public defender. If you cannot afford 480 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 2: an attorney, the state will provide one for you. Under 481 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: virtually all felonies, or actually I should say for all felonies, 482 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 2: and in most states most of your misdemeanors. There are 483 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 2: some limitations when it comes to short service and things 484 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 2: like that. This is also the sixth Amendment where you 485 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 2: find your speedy and public trial. That gets a little 486 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 2: bit more complicated, because the idea of speedy is relative 487 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 2: to where you live and what system you are in 488 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: the Statute of limitations, which is the time period within 489 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 2: which the states to bring a charge if one is 490 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 2: going to be brought, that relates to this, but more 491 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 2: important than that, it gets to whether the state has 492 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 2: the assets and ability to effectively prosecute people, because if 493 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 2: they can't do it in the right amount of time, 494 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 2: the constitution guarantees that they can't bring that at all. 495 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: So you will see cases where an allegation is made, 496 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 2: someone is arrested, but never actually presented for prosecution within 497 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 2: a period of time measured in years. I should say, 498 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 2: this is not a weeks or months exercise. And you 499 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: can file what is known as a constitutional speedy where 500 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 2: a court will look at a variety of factors and 501 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 2: determine whether the state fulfilled its duty and obligation to 502 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 2: a speedy and public trial. You can also have what's 503 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 2: called a statutory speedy trial, which is embedded in the 504 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 2: code of your state, and that is a specific are 505 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 2: rules where it requires the state to move forward with 506 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 2: certain parts of the trial at an escalated timeframe. And 507 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: that's most often used to jam up the state, and 508 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 2: you see that in a lot of cases, especially bigger 509 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 2: cases that are complex for the state to manage. But 510 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 2: the sixth Amendment is your trial rights and when it 511 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 2: comes to state power, those are the rules. Those are 512 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 2: the limitations. Those are what keep authoritarians and dictators and 513 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 2: the evil people of the past at day. 514 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: That's what separates us. It's just that simple. And you know, 515 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: there were some leaked photographs in this case. There was 516 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: Heill telling people she wanted to write the book for 517 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: a lake house. There's another clerk that said, hell and 518 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 1: a bailiff drove a duror home. I mean it just 519 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 1: the hints just kept coming back. 520 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 2: To the he is. So I work in a courthouse 521 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 2: share I know you familiar with Phone County Courthouse very 522 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 2: well yourself. You don't want to be wandering around downtown Atlanta, 523 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: say after dark, eight nine, ten o'clock at night, because 524 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 2: this is a non residential area. It is all businesses 525 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 2: and big buildings, and the only people there after dark 526 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 2: aren't the kind of people you necessarily want to spend 527 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 2: a lot of time with. There's a large unhoused population 528 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 2: rife with drug abuse and mental health. So we always 529 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 2: are dealing with jury security, jury safety. The clerk doesn't do. 530 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 2: That's what deputies are for. That's what service of cars are. 531 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 2: There are more ways to ensure the safety and integrity 532 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 2: of a jury that are just sacrol sainct and easy. 533 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: The idea that someone writing a book about a trial 534 00:35:55,320 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 2: while monitoring and managing the jury would drive them, that 535 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 2: just boggles the mind. 536 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: Here's a question for you. She supposedly went in the 537 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: jury room. She supposedly went with a bailiff to drive somebody. 538 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: She supposedly had all these side conversations with people. Did 539 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: you see a deputy testify? 540 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 2: Nope? And that's another big question. The meeting that sticks 541 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 2: out to me is how is she having these individual 542 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 2: meetings with the four person? I mean, how do the 543 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 2: other jurors not go, hey, what's that jur doing with 544 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 2: the clerk in the closet? 545 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: How does the bailiff standing at the door refuse her entry? 546 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 2: And it gets down to again, where back to that 547 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 2: jury pulling? The words matter? And do people really understand 548 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 2: how important they are. One of my complaints about Court 549 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 2: is that words don't have the same weight for different people, 550 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 2: and you need to understand that people might need some 551 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: education as to the importance. 552 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: The thing that I enjoy the least about Court is 553 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: the repetitiveness. So you know, when you watch a movie, 554 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,959 Speaker 1: you know you need me on that wall. You want 555 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 1: me on that wall, right, you're waiting for those moments, 556 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 1: the aha, I got you, here's the secret tapes or whatever. 557 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 1: A lot of it is the same thing. Every day. 558 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: They're gonna tell that jury, Hey, don't have your phones out, 559 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: don't look at a paper, don't call nobody, don't talk 560 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: about this with anybody, don't talk about it amongst yourselves. Yet, right, 561 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: how in the world after six weeks do those folks 562 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: show back up and a few of them get on 563 00:37:50,600 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: their phones watching court TV live, watching testify. 564 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 2: I was down at court to view when that was happening. 565 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 2: There were a couple of people smiling and giggle, just 566 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 2: because it's so absurd to think that there was somebody 567 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,399 Speaker 2: with their head on going, hey, y'all, maybe we should 568 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 2: act right, Hey, hey. 569 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: Y'all, really, Josh, what this has already taken six weeks 570 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: of my life. I'm not trying to be held again, Let's. 571 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 2: Not do it. 572 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: Put you phone on. 573 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 2: Believable that there's not multiple deputies back there watching them 574 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 2: like a hawk to make sure that the rules are 575 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: being followed. But again, does that reflect on the seriousness 576 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 2: or lack there of the whole system? And if you're 577 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 2: a critic of the system, you say, yeah, these words 578 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 2: are garbage and they are meaningless, and they are ignored 579 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 2: when we get to things like jury charges. Right before 580 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,439 Speaker 2: you get to the to the jury going back, they 581 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 2: have to listen to the judge drone on and on 582 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 2: and on with jury charges that half the time the 583 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 2: lawyers don't even understand. And then after reading at a 584 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 2: jury a trapped group of people in a box and 585 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 2: I promise you are being read at. You are not 586 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 2: having a nice written No, they are reading to you 587 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 2: the driest, most boring, complicated words of all time. We 588 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,399 Speaker 2: don't get them a copy of it and tell them 589 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 2: to go follow everything that they just heard. Now, in 590 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 2: some federal courts and some of the state courts they 591 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 2: publish the jury instructions, which I think is great, but 592 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 2: talk about letting them loose with just enough information to 593 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 2: be dangerous. That is at the heart of some of 594 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 2: the critiques of the jury system is we have such 595 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,839 Speaker 2: an advanced and evolved system that has become so complicated 596 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 2: it requires three years of advanced education after undergrad to 597 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 2: even understand and practice. But then we pick the twelve 598 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 2: people that jokingly weren't smart enough to get out of 599 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 2: jury duty. We read at them after they've had to 600 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 2: listen to parts of a story that clearly they know 601 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 2: they didn't hear everything. We said, go make a decision 602 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 2: according to these rules, and we're not going to give 603 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 2: you a copy of the rules. 604 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: That's right. Everybody understand, okay. 605 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 2: And you've read the appeals and you see them when 606 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 2: there are rulings that come out that make every single 607 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 2: person scratch their head and say, how I was joking 608 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 2: with the prosecutor today or sorry, I was joking on 609 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 2: Twitter today. Someone asked me about, you know, winning and 610 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,479 Speaker 2: losing trials and innocent people getting convicted, and I said, 611 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 2: every good lawyer has lost cases they should have won 612 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 2: in one cases they should have lost. And my big 613 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 2: example of that is I had a case where a 614 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 2: young man was accused of fairly awful sexual assault, and 615 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 2: our defense was he didn't sexually assault her, he just 616 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 2: beat the snot out of her. And so we went 617 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 2: to trial and it was pretty clear we were going 618 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 2: to admit to the physical beating, but we weren't gonna 619 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 2: admit to the sexual part. And the prosecutor is just 620 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 2: all up on me. He's a great guy. Still, No, 621 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 2: I'm fifteen years later, and he's a man. You may 622 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 2: beat me on the sex thing, but I'm gonna get 623 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 2: the best sentence out of that jury acquitted. Now, think 624 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 2: about that, the jury acquitted on a violent charge, where 625 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 2: the defense was I just did a different violent charge. 626 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 2: And that's the viagarity of our system. This murder highlights 627 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 2: how challenging the system is because there are illogical results 628 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 2: and people are just gonna do what people are just 629 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 2: gonna do. And I have no idea how Jersey could 630 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 2: stand up and say no one's influenced me and then 631 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 2: change that tune so dramatically in writing and more testimony 632 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 2: weeks later, which begs the question, and it's legitimate even 633 00:41:54,600 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 2: though salacious. Was she manipulated? And that up this whole 634 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 2: other can of worms about how aggressive these fantastic defense 635 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 2: attorneys who are well regarded, elected, powerful, successful. There's just 636 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 2: natural questions. These are zealous advocates who are clearly gonna 637 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 2: fight every way they can. And I don't want to 638 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 2: cast dispersions, but that change in story. People are gonna 639 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 2: ask questions. This is rural South Carolina, after all, and 640 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 2: if the fix is in, you can find it in 641 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 2: rural communities. 642 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: Both things cannot be true. It just can't. You either 643 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,760 Speaker 1: lied under oath when you were polled for whatever reason 644 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,760 Speaker 1: you chose, or you lied during this hearing. They both 645 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: cannot be true. 646 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 2: It really is a conflict. And let me add one 647 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 2: more twist. So this is what's called a collateral attack. 648 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 2: Our system is devised so that when a jury says it, 649 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 2: they have been empowered by oath, by selection to be 650 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:13,359 Speaker 2: the finders of facts. When there's a question about what 651 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 2: happened to jury is the solution. Whatever the jury says happened. 652 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 2: Guess what, that's what happened legally, lawfully, officially. That is 653 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,760 Speaker 2: the ultimate power of a jury is a finder of fact. 654 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,359 Speaker 2: So when we finish a trial, that's why we never 655 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 2: get to hear another trial again. All the appeals are 656 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:40,880 Speaker 2: done on transcripts because you don't disturb the finding of 657 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:46,479 Speaker 2: a properly unpaneled jury. This represents kind of the new 658 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 2: wave of going back after resolution, after a jury verdict, 659 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 2: trying to find a way to disrupt that verdict. And 660 00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 2: I worry about that on an existential basis because the 661 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 2: world has technology now that the founding fathers and the 662 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:08,919 Speaker 2: developers of our system could not comprehend and the development 663 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:14,879 Speaker 2: of technology, mass communications, putting the world in our pockets. 664 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 2: That changes how we interact with the court system. I 665 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 2: get automatic notifications on my phone, just do God, I 666 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 2: get more of them than I care to think about. 667 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,840 Speaker 2: That's how the world's technology is intruded onto the province 668 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,839 Speaker 2: that previously would have been easy to cut out, and 669 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 2: we can't do that. Like you were talking about earlier, 670 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 2: how do you expect someone to isolate themselves from the 671 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 2: largest local story and largest national criminal story happening for 672 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,320 Speaker 2: six weeks. 673 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,919 Speaker 1: Well, let me throw one more thing at you, mister 674 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 1: defense attorney. How do you enter reasonable doubt before the 675 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:08,480 Speaker 1: trial ever starts? Mass media, social media, You've got people 676 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 1: in DELFI talking about Odinism. 677 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,920 Speaker 6: You didn't cook it, which if you follow the Odinis story, 678 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 6: it's unbelievable to see how it literally started as this, Hey, 679 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 6: you know, it's some odin boom, next thing, the next thing, 680 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 6: and then it got bigger and bigger and bigger. 681 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 2: Look at the Karen Reid case, which started out one 682 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 2: way and is now exploded into interagency investigations with the 683 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 2: US attorneys. Look at what Fannie Willis is dealing with 684 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,800 Speaker 2: in Fulton County right now. It's all on this same line, 685 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,320 Speaker 2: and it gets back to the integrity of our system 686 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,920 Speaker 2: and whether we can continue to maintain that integrity or 687 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 2: whether we've got to really start thinking about fundamental changes 688 00:45:55,560 --> 00:46:00,400 Speaker 2: to the justice system incorporating new technologies. There's a political 689 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 2: theorist named Hannah Arent who wrote in the thirties, forties 690 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 2: and fifties about the origins of totalitarianism, which is the 691 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 2: form of government that was used by Hitler and Stalin primarily. 692 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 2: And her argument is that we had not had a 693 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,160 Speaker 2: new form of government since the times of the Greeks 694 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:25,279 Speaker 2: and the Romans until totalitarianism, and that is because totalitarianism 695 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 2: could only exist due to the development of mass communication. 696 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 2: Prior to mass communication, you could not have an authoritarian 697 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 2: or totalitarian leader because it wasn't possible for them to 698 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,279 Speaker 2: communicate to so many people the same message at the 699 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 2: same time, and it leans into the mob and it 700 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,839 Speaker 2: leads into mass talk and things like that. We are 701 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 2: still having that technological revolution, and our court system and 702 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,719 Speaker 2: our government and our society is struggling with how do 703 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,879 Speaker 2: we maintain more wars and values of fairness and propriety 704 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 2: in the face of technologies that no one can predict. 705 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,719 Speaker 2: Because right now, if I wanted to text you secretly 706 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,719 Speaker 2: and share information and hide it so that no one 707 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 2: could ever find it, I could do it. If I 708 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,319 Speaker 2: wanted to lie, cheat, steal, and defraud a system, it 709 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,800 Speaker 2: is arguably easier to do that now than at any 710 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 2: other time in our past. And then includes, most specifically 711 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 2: and relevant here collateral attacks, because I can, with time, money, 712 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:42,720 Speaker 2: and some fraud, create a collateral attack that would damage 713 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,319 Speaker 2: the integrity of the system. And there are people that 714 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 2: believe that happened here. 715 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 1: Joshua Schiffer, I could talk to you all night long, 716 00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: and I appreciate you being own ZO seven and a 717 00:47:58,360 --> 00:47:59,880 Speaker 1: part of my zones. 718 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,839 Speaker 2: I love it. I thank you so much. You make 719 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,879 Speaker 2: me smile when I see that message. This is one 720 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 2: of the most enjoyable formats. I love talking with you, 721 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,759 Speaker 2: and I love the audience response. And this is so 722 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 2: enjoyable and it's so important. You know, this is the 723 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 2: kind of stuff that affects the long arc because while 724 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,880 Speaker 2: current pop culture may forget about out Murda in six months, 725 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 2: the lawyers, the policymakers, the people that are involved intellectually 726 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,839 Speaker 2: at how our system grows. This is a meaningful, mild 727 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:40,280 Speaker 2: market forever. 728 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,040 Speaker 1: Amen. And I'll tell you I do think of Crichton 729 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 1: Waters because again, whether it's baseball or the courtroom or 730 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 1: a marriage, how dare you lie? How dare you cheat? 731 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:57,399 Speaker 1: How dare you just violate the sanctity of all of it? 732 00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: Your oath, your vow, your promise. There's just no excuse 733 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,680 Speaker 1: in it to me, y'all. I am going to end 734 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 1: Zone seven the way that I always do with a quote. 735 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,080 Speaker 1: The reason I talk to myself is because I'm the 736 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:18,200 Speaker 1: only one whose answers I accept. George Carlin, I'm Cheryl McCollum, 737 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:19,600 Speaker 1: and this is Zone seven.