WEBVTT - How to Stay Hopeful (When It Feels Impossible) 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:33.316 Pushkin. Hey there, it's Maya. If you listen to the show, 0:00:33.436 --> 0:00:36.476 you know that I'm fascinated by how people respond when 0:00:36.516 --> 0:00:39.916 life doesn't go according to plan. My new book with 0:00:39.996 --> 0:00:43.516 Penguin Random House, The Other Side of Change, comes out 0:00:43.596 --> 0:00:47.036 January thirteenth, and it grew out of the same questions 0:00:47.076 --> 0:00:50.036 we explore on this podcast. What do we hold on 0:00:50.116 --> 0:00:52.796 to when life shifts, what do we let go of? 0:00:53.316 --> 0:00:55.556 And how do we find meaning on the other side. 0:00:56.076 --> 0:00:59.076 The Other Side of Change blends all new stories you 0:00:59.156 --> 0:01:03.196 haven't heard on the podcast with new scientific insights on resilience. 0:01:03.636 --> 0:01:05.396 My hope is that it gives you the tools you 0:01:05.436 --> 0:01:08.396 need to navigate your own moments of disruption with a 0:01:08.436 --> 0:01:11.636 greater sense of possibility about who you can become on 0:01:11.676 --> 0:01:14.396 the Other Side of Change. You can learn more and 0:01:14.516 --> 0:01:16.836 pre order now at the link in the show notes 0:01:17.116 --> 0:01:21.156 or at Changewmaya dot com slash book. That's changed with 0:01:21.236 --> 0:01:24.076 Maya dot com slash book, And if you'd like to 0:01:24.076 --> 0:01:28.156 get more involved, I just launch an Ambassador's program, which 0:01:28.156 --> 0:01:32.036 will give you exclusive content, free perks, and invitation to 0:01:32.076 --> 0:01:35.636 a conversation with me and behind the scenes updates. You 0:01:35.676 --> 0:01:40.196 can join this new community at changewmaya dot com slash join. 0:01:40.676 --> 0:01:45.796 I can't wait to share this book with you. Okay, 0:01:45.916 --> 0:01:49.276 so now about today's episode. I was at an event 0:01:49.356 --> 0:01:52.116 the other night when I heard someone say, if you're 0:01:52.116 --> 0:01:55.636 not feeling cynical right now, you're probably not paying attention. 0:01:56.636 --> 0:01:59.076 It was hard to disagree with him. It feels like 0:01:59.076 --> 0:02:02.556 we're living through a particularly dark moment in time, and 0:02:02.676 --> 0:02:06.396 each news cycle seems to only affirm this. I'm certainly 0:02:06.436 --> 0:02:09.356 feeling less hopeful about the fate of humanity these days. 0:02:09.876 --> 0:02:13.116 But here's the thing. I also know that my cynicism 0:02:13.236 --> 0:02:16.316 doesn't benefit me or any of the causes I care about. 0:02:16.996 --> 0:02:21.036 My friend Jamil Zaki, a psychology professor at Stanford, is 0:02:21.076 --> 0:02:23.916 the person who helped me understand this. So I re 0:02:24.076 --> 0:02:26.676 listened to the conversation we had had on a slight 0:02:26.756 --> 0:02:31.396 Change of Plans, in which Jamil makes the case against cynicism. Today, 0:02:31.436 --> 0:02:33.356 I want to reshare that episode with all of you. 0:02:33.956 --> 0:02:37.276 Jamil explains why hopeful people tend to be more resilient 0:02:37.356 --> 0:02:41.716 during adversity, more successful in accomplishing their goals, and more 0:02:41.756 --> 0:02:45.676 willing to tackle societal problems head on. For me, this 0:02:45.836 --> 0:02:49.156 episode is the antidote to the despair that creeps in 0:02:49.356 --> 0:02:51.956 so easily these days. I hope you enjoy it. 0:02:53.556 --> 0:02:56.876 Cynics might see injustice just like the rest of us do, 0:02:57.316 --> 0:03:00.716 but cynicism suggests that there's nothing really to be done 0:03:00.756 --> 0:03:05.476 about it, because if a broken system reflects our broken nature, 0:03:05.756 --> 0:03:08.396 if the worst of us is who we really are, 0:03:08.836 --> 0:03:12.636 then any change, any attempt to improve the world or 0:03:12.676 --> 0:03:16.356 the systems that we live in, is doomed from the outset. 0:03:17.716 --> 0:03:22.276 Psychologist jimil Zaki studies the science of human connection, and 0:03:22.316 --> 0:03:26.236 he believes that cynicism is holding us back. It's not 0:03:26.276 --> 0:03:31.276 just harmful for health, it's also misguided. The alternative, he says, 0:03:31.476 --> 0:03:34.156 is a mindset called hopeful skepticism. 0:03:34.476 --> 0:03:36.956 And the reason that I call it hopeful skepticism is 0:03:37.036 --> 0:03:41.596 because our default tends to be negative. When you adopt 0:03:41.956 --> 0:03:45.996 a skeptical perspective, you do tend to move towards a 0:03:46.036 --> 0:03:50.516 slightly more hopeful and positive place because you're correcting for 0:03:50.676 --> 0:03:53.276 the biases that we already have. People always say, what 0:03:53.316 --> 0:03:55.196 you want me to put on a pair of rose 0:03:55.236 --> 0:03:58.636 colored glasses, and I say, no, you're probably already wearing 0:03:58.676 --> 0:04:01.876 a pair of glasses. That's like mud colored, so just 0:04:01.956 --> 0:04:04.956 take those off right, so that I'm actually not asking 0:04:04.956 --> 0:04:08.156 people to pay less attention, but to pay more attention 0:04:08.636 --> 0:04:13.956 to the folk around them. 0:04:14.156 --> 0:04:18.036 On today's episode, The Life Changing Benefits of being a 0:04:18.076 --> 0:04:22.436 Hopeful Skeptic, I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight 0:04:22.556 --> 0:04:25.236 change of plans, a show about who we are and 0:04:25.276 --> 0:04:35.796 who we'd become in the face of a big change. 0:04:41.396 --> 0:04:45.236 Jamil Zaki is a professor of psychology at Stanford University 0:04:45.676 --> 0:04:49.516 and the director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Lab. You 0:04:49.596 --> 0:04:52.396 might remember him from his first appearance on this show, 0:04:52.716 --> 0:04:56.276 when he talked about the power of empathy. Jamil has 0:04:56.316 --> 0:04:59.236 spent the last twenty years studying the sunny side of 0:04:59.316 --> 0:05:04.516 human nature, things like compassion, kindness, and togetherness. He says 0:05:04.556 --> 0:05:07.756 he's widely known as a kind of ambassador for humanity's 0:05:07.796 --> 0:05:11.716 better angels. But in his new book Hope for CENX, 0:05:11.836 --> 0:05:16.196 The Surprising Science of Human Goodness, Jamille talks about struggling 0:05:16.196 --> 0:05:19.556 with this image. He begins the book with a confession. 0:05:20.476 --> 0:05:23.996 This entire time that I've been advocating for and talking 0:05:24.036 --> 0:05:28.596 about human goodness, I myself have been pretty cynical. I 0:05:28.756 --> 0:05:32.796 tend to suspect people and look at the worst sides 0:05:32.836 --> 0:05:37.796 of lots of situations, becoming anxious, neurotic, pessimistic. And I 0:05:37.796 --> 0:05:41.876 feel like that split between my outer persona on the 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:46.116 one hand and my deepest experiences on the other has 0:05:46.156 --> 0:05:47.956 been a problem for me and did something that I 0:05:47.996 --> 0:05:50.636 wanted to bring out into the light and address. 0:05:51.156 --> 0:05:53.556 I'm curious if you can tell me a bit more 0:05:53.596 --> 0:05:56.956 about that disconnect. Do you remember a story in which 0:05:56.996 --> 0:06:00.076 you met with someone who were giving a group council 0:06:00.396 --> 0:06:02.876 and then you went home and you were kind of like, oh, darn, 0:06:02.676 --> 0:06:05.796 I don't actually think I'm buying what I'm saying. I'm 0:06:05.796 --> 0:06:07.996 not internalizing this, oh. 0:06:07.916 --> 0:06:08.796 One hundred percent. 0:06:09.236 --> 0:06:12.996 One of the most intense moments came after TED, the 0:06:13.076 --> 0:06:17.236 global conference that has a lot of great speakers, asked 0:06:17.276 --> 0:06:20.796 me to come and give a talk on optimism as 0:06:20.836 --> 0:06:22.796 a path to positive social change. 0:06:23.476 --> 0:06:24.676 I pulled out my notebook and. 0:06:24.636 --> 0:06:27.196 I said, I'm going to start drafting this talk on 0:06:27.276 --> 0:06:30.476 the first I think Wednesday of the year in twenty 0:06:30.516 --> 0:06:33.516 twenty one, which happened to be January sixth, And I 0:06:33.556 --> 0:06:37.636 remember I started drafting this talk about how you know 0:06:37.676 --> 0:06:41.276 optimism is so important, and my friend texted me and said, 0:06:41.276 --> 0:06:43.516 you have to turn on the television right now. And 0:06:44.076 --> 0:06:46.156 I saw what the rest of the nation and world 0:06:46.196 --> 0:06:51.716 saw with the insurrection at the Capitol Building, and I 0:06:51.756 --> 0:06:56.516 thought to myself, am I full of shit? Is everything 0:06:56.556 --> 0:07:00.036 that I talk about a lie? I know it's not 0:07:00.276 --> 0:07:04.276 because I do the research, I see the data, but 0:07:05.076 --> 0:07:08.076 there's sometimes such a huge distance between your head and 0:07:08.116 --> 0:07:10.996 your heart, you know, And like I just couldn't believe 0:07:11.636 --> 0:07:15.116 deeper inside myself that people were good as I watched 0:07:15.276 --> 0:07:16.636 this tragedy unfold. 0:07:17.116 --> 0:07:21.476 Yeah, what were the personal costs to being cynical for you? 0:07:21.596 --> 0:07:23.316 I'm curious to hear how that played out. 0:07:24.236 --> 0:07:29.836 During that lockdown period late twenty twenty early twenty twenty one, 0:07:30.116 --> 0:07:33.756 I really probably had the rock bottom of my own 0:07:33.796 --> 0:07:37.676 personal cynicism, and it was extremely apparent to me that 0:07:37.916 --> 0:07:40.196 entire time that it was not helping me, that it 0:07:40.276 --> 0:07:46.076 was hurting me emotionally, it was diminishing my relationships. It 0:07:46.116 --> 0:07:50.236 was it felt like a form of social depression, right. 0:07:50.396 --> 0:07:54.556 Depression kind of casts this gray light over everything, and 0:07:54.716 --> 0:07:58.436 especially over your sense of self and the world at large. 0:07:58.636 --> 0:08:02.236 I felt like cynicism was doing that for my vision 0:08:02.276 --> 0:08:03.156 of other people. 0:08:03.396 --> 0:08:04.156 You know, sort of. 0:08:04.516 --> 0:08:07.476 It made it extremely difficult for me to see people 0:08:07.476 --> 0:08:10.676 in a positive light, and I started exploring the science 0:08:10.796 --> 0:08:13.836 of cynicism because I wanted to figure out what was 0:08:13.836 --> 0:08:17.116 happening inside me and whether there was anything that I 0:08:17.156 --> 0:08:21.876 could do for myself to dig out of this trap 0:08:21.916 --> 0:08:25.316 that I felt my mind was in. And it's only 0:08:25.356 --> 0:08:30.316 then that I discovered how common this sense of hopelessness, exhaustion, 0:08:30.516 --> 0:08:33.756 and cynicism really is, which first of all made me 0:08:33.796 --> 0:08:35.316 feel better because I was like, well, at least I'm 0:08:35.356 --> 0:08:37.636 not alone, but then made me feel as I learned 0:08:37.716 --> 0:08:40.716 more and more about how harmful cynicism is, and not 0:08:40.756 --> 0:08:45.436 only how harmful, but how unnecessary it is, I thought, Wow, 0:08:45.556 --> 0:08:48.956 this could actually help a lot of people who feel 0:08:48.996 --> 0:08:49.276 like I. 0:08:49.396 --> 0:08:49.556 Do. 0:08:50.596 --> 0:08:52.796 You know when you say the word cynicism, Jimille, so 0:08:52.916 --> 0:08:58.436 many images come to mind. What is your definition of cynicism? 0:08:59.116 --> 0:09:03.636 Cynicism can be defined as a theory about the world 0:09:04.316 --> 0:09:07.796 and about people in particular. It's the theory that humanity 0:09:08.076 --> 0:09:12.996 in general is selfish, greedy, and dishonest. That is not 0:09:13.116 --> 0:09:15.796 to say that a cynic will doubt that anybody will 0:09:15.836 --> 0:09:18.796 ever do a kind thing in their lives. They just 0:09:18.836 --> 0:09:22.756 think that at our core, who we are is defined 0:09:22.836 --> 0:09:26.156 by self interest. Now, if you have that theory, you 0:09:26.236 --> 0:09:29.036 might notice a bunch of things happening inside you and 0:09:29.236 --> 0:09:32.116 a bunch of things in your behavior. Right first, you 0:09:32.196 --> 0:09:35.956 might find yourself suspecting other people's motives, even when they 0:09:35.996 --> 0:09:39.316 do things that appear positive. You might find yourself very 0:09:39.356 --> 0:09:42.956 quick to judge others based on the harms that they produce, 0:09:43.356 --> 0:09:45.036 not on the best things that they do. 0:09:45.956 --> 0:09:47.956 It might also change what you do and what you 0:09:48.076 --> 0:09:48.556 don't do. 0:09:49.196 --> 0:09:52.276 One place that we see cynicism play out very strongly 0:09:52.356 --> 0:09:56.876 is in trust. Trust is our willingness to be vulnerable 0:09:56.996 --> 0:09:59.356 to other people on the belief that they have our 0:09:59.356 --> 0:10:04.076 best interest in mind. Loaning somebody money, letting somebody babysit 0:10:04.156 --> 0:10:08.396 your kid, giving somebody more responsibility at work, on your team. 0:10:08.476 --> 0:10:11.556 All of these are types of trust. And trust is 0:10:11.596 --> 0:10:15.476 a social gamble. We can't know what the outcome will be. 0:10:15.636 --> 0:10:17.876 We need to count on other people. And if you're cynical, 0:10:18.476 --> 0:10:21.396 that gamble feels like it's for suckers. It feels like 0:10:21.436 --> 0:10:24.316 a losing bet. So cynics tend to trust a lot 0:10:24.436 --> 0:10:25.996 less often than non cynics. 0:10:26.836 --> 0:10:30.316 You have a very people focused definition, So is that 0:10:30.356 --> 0:10:33.796 intentional and does it exclude those who just think irrespective 0:10:33.796 --> 0:10:36.476 of human involvement, you know, an asteroid might hit us, Like, 0:10:36.676 --> 0:10:38.276 how do you bucket those folks? 0:10:38.836 --> 0:10:39.156 Yeah? 0:10:39.236 --> 0:10:43.276 I think that what you're describing is pessimism, the idea 0:10:43.316 --> 0:10:46.276 that the future will unfold in ways that we don't want. 0:10:46.756 --> 0:10:49.996 And I think that pessimism and cynicism are quite related 0:10:50.036 --> 0:10:52.716 because a lot of what we expect about the future 0:10:52.996 --> 0:10:55.156 has to do with who's around us right now. But 0:10:55.516 --> 0:10:59.316 I do think of cynicism as generally a social theory. 0:10:59.716 --> 0:11:04.436 Okay, okay, that's very helpful. Would you call cynicism the 0:11:04.516 --> 0:11:08.316 default state of the human or like, is that what 0:11:08.356 --> 0:11:09.996 you see in the data or do you think that 0:11:10.036 --> 0:11:13.756 it's somewhat acquired. I'm just curious to know what we're 0:11:13.796 --> 0:11:14.636 running up against. 0:11:15.276 --> 0:11:19.036 So there are some defaults in the human brain and 0:11:19.116 --> 0:11:24.156 mind that tip us towards cynicism. Psychologists talk about negativity bias, 0:11:24.716 --> 0:11:28.996 the idea that it's often much easier to pay attention to, 0:11:28.996 --> 0:11:33.556 to remember, and much more tempting to talk about negative 0:11:33.596 --> 0:11:38.196 events and people than positive events in people. And you 0:11:38.236 --> 0:11:42.516 can see why that would be evolutionarily adaptive, right, you know, 0:11:42.516 --> 0:11:45.356 if you're thinking back one hundred thousand years, the people 0:11:45.356 --> 0:11:47.796 who paid lots of attention to threats in their environment 0:11:47.876 --> 0:11:50.796 might be more likely to survive. And so that's I 0:11:50.796 --> 0:11:55.196 think one thing that makes fighting cynicism an uphill battle. 0:11:56.076 --> 0:11:58.076 You've already alluded to some of the negative impacts of 0:11:58.116 --> 0:12:01.556 cynicism on our well being in relationships. Are there any 0:12:01.596 --> 0:12:04.196 other studies or research that you would want to share? 0:12:05.316 --> 0:12:07.956 Yeah? I mean so one is that. 0:12:09.516 --> 0:12:13.356 Unfortunately live far less healthy lives, even at a physical level, 0:12:13.476 --> 0:12:17.036 so they tend to show greater signs of cellular aging 0:12:17.116 --> 0:12:20.956 and inflammation, they tend to develop heart disease more than 0:12:20.996 --> 0:12:24.316 non synics, and even die younger than non cynics. And 0:12:24.676 --> 0:12:28.876 I think this comes from the fact that cynics have 0:12:28.916 --> 0:12:31.156 a harder time tapping into one of the things that 0:12:31.236 --> 0:12:35.716 destresses and nourishes us, the most connection to other people. 0:12:37.236 --> 0:12:41.716 There's one really fascinating study where researchers brought people in 0:12:41.716 --> 0:12:44.756 the lab and asked them to give an extemporaneous speech 0:12:45.036 --> 0:12:47.156 on a topic they didn't know very well, which of 0:12:47.196 --> 0:12:50.476 course is not pleasant for anybody. And in some cases 0:12:50.836 --> 0:12:53.916 people had a cheerleader, a friendly stranger who was with 0:12:53.996 --> 0:12:56.396 them while they prepared and said, you've got this. I 0:12:56.476 --> 0:12:59.996 believe in you. And in other cases they were alone. Now, 0:13:00.596 --> 0:13:03.516 for non cnics, their blood pressure went up when they 0:13:03.556 --> 0:13:05.796 were preparing this speech, that would happen for any of us. 0:13:05.956 --> 0:13:08.396 But when they had a supportive stranger there, their blood 0:13:08.396 --> 0:13:11.996 pressure went up a lot less. For cynics, having a 0:13:11.996 --> 0:13:14.916 supportive person there didn't make a difference at all. So 0:13:14.996 --> 0:13:17.436 their blood pressure increased just as much if they were 0:13:17.436 --> 0:13:20.396 alone or if somebody was there to help them. That 0:13:20.556 --> 0:13:22.836 is so telling to me. It almost strikes me that 0:13:23.036 --> 0:13:26.156 if you're cynical, if you don't believe in people, then 0:13:26.556 --> 0:13:31.556 you kind of can't digest or metabolize the social nourishment 0:13:31.956 --> 0:13:34.556 of connection. And I think that that's just such a 0:13:34.596 --> 0:13:35.516 tragic way to live. 0:13:35.876 --> 0:13:41.396 Yeah, so much of your book I see as mythbusting cynicism. 0:13:41.556 --> 0:13:46.036 And so what are some common misconceptions that people have 0:13:46.556 --> 0:13:47.476 about cynicism. 0:13:48.916 --> 0:13:51.196 Yeah, this was one of the things that was most 0:13:51.276 --> 0:13:54.996 surprising for me when I started doing this research, because 0:13:54.996 --> 0:13:58.556 I thought to myself, Wow, cynicism feels terrible. It's awful 0:13:58.596 --> 0:14:01.396 for our health and relationships, it's not very good for 0:14:01.436 --> 0:14:05.876 our communities. Why are so many people adopting this as 0:14:05.916 --> 0:14:08.356 a view of life and as a view of humanity. 0:14:08.876 --> 0:14:12.236 And there are three myths that I realized our culture 0:14:12.276 --> 0:14:16.956 propagates about cynicism. The first is that it's wise. Now, 0:14:17.036 --> 0:14:19.556 over the last three years since starting this project, I've 0:14:19.556 --> 0:14:23.276 talked to so many self proclaimed cynics, and one thing 0:14:23.276 --> 0:14:27.036 that they have in common, besides hostility and a little 0:14:27.076 --> 0:14:31.116 bit of contempt, is a sort of bitter pride. A 0:14:31.156 --> 0:14:33.876 lot of cynics will say, I'm actually a realist. You 0:14:33.956 --> 0:14:37.236 know that if you don't think in cynical terms, you're 0:14:37.396 --> 0:14:41.516 a naive roube or a chump. That if you pay 0:14:41.556 --> 0:14:45.476 close enough attention and become wise enough, then you will 0:14:45.516 --> 0:14:49.436 realize that people are really terrible. And in fact, it's 0:14:49.476 --> 0:14:53.076 not just cynics who think this. Surveys find that seventy 0:14:53.116 --> 0:14:56.756 percent of people think that cynics are smarter than non cynics, 0:14:57.236 --> 0:15:00.436 and eighty five percent of people think that cynics are 0:15:00.636 --> 0:15:03.556 more socially smart, for instance, that they'll be better at 0:15:03.596 --> 0:15:07.076 picking out liars than nonsnics. It turns out that that's 0:15:07.396 --> 0:15:10.996 not true. So there's from hundreds of thousands of people, 0:15:11.476 --> 0:15:15.316 lots of national surveys that finds that cynics actually perform 0:15:15.396 --> 0:15:18.716 less well on cognitive tests than non cynics, And there 0:15:18.796 --> 0:15:21.636 is other research that finds that cynics are worse at 0:15:21.636 --> 0:15:26.076 spotting liars than non cynics. So it's important to know 0:15:26.116 --> 0:15:29.596 that that perception of cynicism as a type of intelligence 0:15:30.036 --> 0:15:32.836 is clearly at odds with the data. 0:15:33.236 --> 0:15:35.556 Let's talk a bit more about some of the other 0:15:35.636 --> 0:15:37.836 misconceptions we have about cynicism. 0:15:38.476 --> 0:15:42.316 Yeah, I think that another misconception that I think people 0:15:42.356 --> 0:15:44.156 have about cynicism is that it's safe. 0:15:45.036 --> 0:15:45.236 You know. 0:15:45.396 --> 0:15:48.276 I think a lot of us who feel cynical about 0:15:48.396 --> 0:15:53.596 others feel that way because we've been hurt, betrayed, disappointed, 0:15:53.956 --> 0:15:56.996 you know. I know for me, my cynicism comes from 0:15:57.796 --> 0:16:00.196 a lot of early parts of my life where I 0:16:00.196 --> 0:16:02.396 didn't feel like I could really count on people. And 0:16:02.436 --> 0:16:04.156 so it's not something that I feel because I think 0:16:04.196 --> 0:16:07.276 I'm superior to others, or because I want to have 0:16:07.316 --> 0:16:11.316 a negative attitude of a response to pain, and one 0:16:11.476 --> 0:16:13.996 response that we might have to pain is to put 0:16:13.996 --> 0:16:16.236 our guard up to feel like well, I never want 0:16:16.236 --> 0:16:19.236 to experience that again. I don't want to be betrayed 0:16:19.316 --> 0:16:21.916 or heard again. And the only way I can guarantee 0:16:22.436 --> 0:16:26.396 my own safety moving forward is to shut off any 0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:29.836 type of social risk. And that's why I think you 0:16:29.916 --> 0:16:33.076 often see cynics not willing to trust people because they 0:16:33.076 --> 0:16:36.396 don't want to risk betrayal, They don't want to risk 0:16:36.476 --> 0:16:37.636 being taken advantage of. 0:16:38.556 --> 0:16:41.956 No. I totally appreciate that. Why don't we cover jmial 0:16:42.116 --> 0:16:45.996 the third misconception that people have when it comes to cynicism. 0:16:46.676 --> 0:16:50.916 Yeah, the third misconception around cynicism is the idea that 0:16:50.996 --> 0:16:55.916 cynicism is moral, that that really it's so important to 0:16:56.556 --> 0:17:01.596 be aware of injustice, corruption and harm, and that cynics 0:17:01.636 --> 0:17:05.676 are the only ones who are adequately responsive to all 0:17:05.756 --> 0:17:08.516 the terrible things that happen in the world, and as 0:17:08.516 --> 0:17:12.356 a result, that being hopeful or positive is kind of 0:17:12.396 --> 0:17:16.316 an abandonment of our species and our problems, that it's 0:17:16.356 --> 0:17:19.036 a pair of rose colored glasses. You know, when I 0:17:19.116 --> 0:17:22.596 talk about hope and overcoming cynicism, a lot of people say, well, 0:17:22.596 --> 0:17:26.916 that's rich coming from you, an ultra privileged professor at 0:17:26.956 --> 0:17:29.516 an elite university. You know, a lot of us don't 0:17:29.556 --> 0:17:33.396 have the luxury of feeling good about humanity. We have 0:17:33.516 --> 0:17:38.956 to speak truth to power and challenge injustice. And first 0:17:38.956 --> 0:17:43.196 of all, I think cynics might see injustice just like 0:17:43.236 --> 0:17:46.796 the rest of us do. But cynicism suggests that there's 0:17:46.836 --> 0:17:48.876 nothing really to be done about it. Because if a 0:17:48.876 --> 0:17:53.676 broken system reflects our broken nature, if the worst of 0:17:53.796 --> 0:17:57.716 us is who we really are, than any change, any 0:17:57.796 --> 0:18:00.636 attempt to improve the world or the systems that we 0:18:00.676 --> 0:18:04.236 live in is doomed from the outset. And so you 0:18:04.276 --> 0:18:07.716 actually see more cynical people are less likely to take 0:18:07.796 --> 0:18:11.236 part in social moved, they're less likely to vote, They're 0:18:11.276 --> 0:18:14.196 more willing to do things like spread conspiracy theories. And 0:18:14.236 --> 0:18:19.196 in fact, I think that autocrats and authoritarians often benefit 0:18:19.476 --> 0:18:22.996 from cynicism and use it as a way of promoting 0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:26.236 the status quo. I mean, a population that doesn't trust 0:18:26.236 --> 0:18:29.436 itself is an easy one to manipulate. 0:18:29.596 --> 0:18:32.516 Yeah, yeah, do you think there's an element of guilt? 0:18:32.716 --> 0:18:39.356 Like do people feel guilty when they express optimism? Because 0:18:40.476 --> 0:18:42.876 it just feels jarring when you see all the pain 0:18:43.116 --> 0:18:44.236 and suffering around you. 0:18:45.316 --> 0:18:48.276 This is such a deep question, and I do want 0:18:48.276 --> 0:18:51.876 to separate optimism from hope here. Yeah, optimism is the 0:18:51.956 --> 0:18:55.316 idea that things will turn out well. Hope is the 0:18:55.396 --> 0:18:58.876 idea that they could turn out well. And I think 0:18:59.036 --> 0:19:03.156 that's a huge distinction, because optimism can lead a little 0:19:03.196 --> 0:19:05.476 bit to complacency. You know, if things are going to 0:19:05.596 --> 0:19:07.836 go great, then I don't really have to do anything 0:19:07.876 --> 0:19:10.476 to make a difference. And in fact, I think that 0:19:11.116 --> 0:19:14.036 what you could call toxic optimism is not that different 0:19:14.076 --> 0:19:16.876 from cynicism. If cynics think, well, things are going to 0:19:16.916 --> 0:19:19.476 go terribly no matter what I do, they can also 0:19:19.836 --> 0:19:20.596 be complacent. 0:19:20.876 --> 0:19:22.796 Yeah, an optimists are like, things are going to go 0:19:22.836 --> 0:19:24.356 great no matter what I do, so I'm not going 0:19:24.356 --> 0:19:24.916 to do anything. 0:19:25.356 --> 0:19:28.796 So you've got two groups of people who have fundamentally 0:19:28.796 --> 0:19:31.716 different beliefs, but neither one of them might be inspired 0:19:31.756 --> 0:19:36.116 to do much. Hope takes the deep uncertainty that we 0:19:36.196 --> 0:19:39.916 have about the future as the place where our actions matter, 0:19:40.596 --> 0:19:45.356 and so hopeful people tend to focus on their agency 0:19:45.996 --> 0:19:48.236 and they think, well, there's a vision of the world 0:19:48.236 --> 0:19:50.636 where things could be better. I'm not saying that's what 0:19:50.756 --> 0:19:54.756 will happen, but it's a possibility, and in order for 0:19:54.836 --> 0:19:58.076 that possibility to become more likely, I need to take action. 0:19:58.796 --> 0:20:03.236 Hopeful individuals, for instance, tend to be more resilient during adversity. 0:20:03.796 --> 0:20:08.636 Lower socio economic and underrepresented minority students who have hope 0:20:08.676 --> 0:20:12.436 are more like likely to pursue their academic goals and 0:20:12.716 --> 0:20:16.556 socially as well. Hopeful people are more willing to engage 0:20:16.636 --> 0:20:20.236 in protests. Right, A protest is not a complacent, rose 0:20:20.276 --> 0:20:23.676 colored glasses type of thing to do. It's taking major 0:20:23.716 --> 0:20:26.636 problems head on. But why do we take those problems 0:20:26.676 --> 0:20:29.356 head on? Because we think that there's a difference to 0:20:29.396 --> 0:20:30.516 be made. 0:20:30.756 --> 0:20:35.516 You advocate in your book for quote Unlearning cynicism, and 0:20:36.356 --> 0:20:41.236 you introduce this concept of hopeful skepticism. You've already explained 0:20:41.276 --> 0:20:43.756 how hope is different from optimism. Can you explain what 0:20:43.796 --> 0:20:45.796 you mean by hopeful skepticism. 0:20:46.396 --> 0:20:49.756 One of the most important things that I learned in 0:20:50.196 --> 0:20:54.156 doing research for this project was the difference between cynicism 0:20:54.196 --> 0:20:57.676 and skepticism. As we've talked about, cynicism is a theory 0:20:57.836 --> 0:20:58.836 about the world. 0:20:59.076 --> 0:20:59.756 Well, as you know. 0:20:59.796 --> 0:21:02.236 As a scientist, once you have a theory, you start 0:21:02.276 --> 0:21:04.876 to kind of see it everywhere and even want to 0:21:04.956 --> 0:21:07.916 support it, and so there can be some confirmation bias 0:21:07.956 --> 0:21:11.756 around theories often have a biased way of looking at 0:21:11.756 --> 0:21:13.796 the world. They almost look at it like lawyers right 0:21:13.916 --> 0:21:17.396 and the prosecution against humanity. They really pay lots of 0:21:17.436 --> 0:21:19.996 attention to the terrible things that people do, or they 0:21:20.076 --> 0:21:25.396 might explain away the others' kindness and trustworthiness. Skepticism is 0:21:26.276 --> 0:21:29.516 not thinking like a lawyer, but thinking like a scientist. 0:21:30.156 --> 0:21:34.356 Skeptics don't necessarily have some huge assumption or theory about 0:21:34.356 --> 0:21:38.916 what people are like. Instead, they look for evidence. They're 0:21:39.036 --> 0:21:43.636 unwilling to rest on early and easy judgments. And because 0:21:43.636 --> 0:21:48.036 of that, skepticism is really different from cynicism, and skeptics, 0:21:48.156 --> 0:21:53.436 unlike cinics, can learn really quickly, can adapt to new situations, 0:21:53.756 --> 0:21:58.036 and become much more accurate about people than cynics do. 0:21:59.276 --> 0:22:02.236 One of the quotes that I really enjoyed from your book, 0:22:02.356 --> 0:22:05.796 and I thought articulated the point well, is that hope 0:22:05.876 --> 0:22:08.676 is not a naive way of approaching the world. It's 0:22:08.676 --> 0:22:11.916 an act, your response to the best data available. 0:22:12.916 --> 0:22:16.036 It's really a point I want to drive home because 0:22:16.436 --> 0:22:18.396 a lot of people when they hear hope, they think 0:22:18.436 --> 0:22:20.316 of somebody with their head in the sand. They think 0:22:20.356 --> 0:22:25.476 of somebody ignoring data as opposed to approaching data. One 0:22:25.516 --> 0:22:28.876 of the important points though, and the reason that I 0:22:28.916 --> 0:22:32.916 call it hopeful skepticism is because our default tends to 0:22:32.956 --> 0:22:37.476 be negative. When you adopt a skeptical perspective, you do 0:22:37.636 --> 0:22:41.876 tend to move towards a slightly more hopeful and positive 0:22:41.916 --> 0:22:45.636 place because you're correcting for the biases that we already have. 0:22:45.676 --> 0:22:47.676 People always say, what you want me to put on 0:22:47.716 --> 0:22:50.196 a pair of rose colored glasses, and I say, no, 0:22:50.716 --> 0:22:54.036 you're probably already wearing a pair of glasses that's like 0:22:54.156 --> 0:22:57.236 mud colored, So just take those off right, so that 0:22:57.516 --> 0:23:00.516 I'm actually not asking people to pay less attention, but 0:23:00.636 --> 0:23:05.676 to pay more attention to the folks around them. 0:23:05.916 --> 0:23:09.916 After the break, Jamille teaches us how to practice hopeful skepticism. 0:23:10.476 --> 0:23:12.556 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:23:12.556 --> 0:23:26.556 of plans, Jimille. The hopeful part of all this is 0:23:26.596 --> 0:23:30.196 that hopeful skepticism is in fact a skill that we 0:23:30.236 --> 0:23:32.516 can build. So why don't we talk a bit about 0:23:32.516 --> 0:23:35.436 how it is that we can build that muscle. In 0:23:35.476 --> 0:23:38.316 your book, you have this, you know, wonderful practical guide, 0:23:38.396 --> 0:23:41.436 and I'm hoping that we can share with listeners a 0:23:41.476 --> 0:23:45.676 few examples of some of these overarching strategies. The first 0:23:45.716 --> 0:23:50.316 you say is to connect with your core values. Tell 0:23:50.356 --> 0:23:51.356 me what that looks. 0:23:51.116 --> 0:23:53.836 Like, yeah, you know, it's interesting. It turns out that 0:23:54.036 --> 0:23:58.756 although cynics have a lot of judgment and contempt for 0:23:58.796 --> 0:24:02.716 other people, they also tend to say that they rely 0:24:02.916 --> 0:24:05.396