1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:33,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey there, it's Maya. If you listen to the show, 2 00:00:33,436 --> 00:00:36,476 Speaker 1: you know that I'm fascinated by how people respond when 3 00:00:36,516 --> 00:00:39,916 Speaker 1: life doesn't go according to plan. My new book with 4 00:00:39,996 --> 00:00:43,516 Speaker 1: Penguin Random House, The Other Side of Change, comes out 5 00:00:43,596 --> 00:00:47,036 Speaker 1: January thirteenth, and it grew out of the same questions 6 00:00:47,076 --> 00:00:50,036 Speaker 1: we explore on this podcast. What do we hold on 7 00:00:50,116 --> 00:00:52,796 Speaker 1: to when life shifts, what do we let go of? 8 00:00:53,316 --> 00:00:55,556 Speaker 1: And how do we find meaning on the other side. 9 00:00:56,076 --> 00:00:59,076 Speaker 1: The Other Side of Change blends all new stories you 10 00:00:59,156 --> 00:01:03,196 Speaker 1: haven't heard on the podcast with new scientific insights on resilience. 11 00:01:03,636 --> 00:01:05,396 Speaker 1: My hope is that it gives you the tools you 12 00:01:05,436 --> 00:01:08,396 Speaker 1: need to navigate your own moments of disruption with a 13 00:01:08,436 --> 00:01:11,636 Speaker 1: greater sense of possibility about who you can become on 14 00:01:11,676 --> 00:01:14,396 Speaker 1: the Other Side of Change. You can learn more and 15 00:01:14,516 --> 00:01:16,836 Speaker 1: pre order now at the link in the show notes 16 00:01:17,116 --> 00:01:21,156 Speaker 1: or at Changewmaya dot com slash book. That's changed with 17 00:01:21,236 --> 00:01:24,076 Speaker 1: Maya dot com slash book, And if you'd like to 18 00:01:24,076 --> 00:01:28,156 Speaker 1: get more involved, I just launch an Ambassador's program, which 19 00:01:28,156 --> 00:01:32,036 Speaker 1: will give you exclusive content, free perks, and invitation to 20 00:01:32,076 --> 00:01:35,636 Speaker 1: a conversation with me and behind the scenes updates. You 21 00:01:35,676 --> 00:01:40,196 Speaker 1: can join this new community at changewmaya dot com slash join. 22 00:01:40,676 --> 00:01:45,796 Speaker 1: I can't wait to share this book with you. Okay, 23 00:01:45,916 --> 00:01:49,276 Speaker 1: so now about today's episode. I was at an event 24 00:01:49,356 --> 00:01:52,116 Speaker 1: the other night when I heard someone say, if you're 25 00:01:52,116 --> 00:01:55,636 Speaker 1: not feeling cynical right now, you're probably not paying attention. 26 00:01:56,636 --> 00:01:59,076 Speaker 1: It was hard to disagree with him. It feels like 27 00:01:59,076 --> 00:02:02,556 Speaker 1: we're living through a particularly dark moment in time, and 28 00:02:02,676 --> 00:02:06,396 Speaker 1: each news cycle seems to only affirm this. I'm certainly 29 00:02:06,436 --> 00:02:09,356 Speaker 1: feeling less hopeful about the fate of humanity these days. 30 00:02:09,876 --> 00:02:13,116 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. I also know that my cynicism 31 00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:16,316 Speaker 1: doesn't benefit me or any of the causes I care about. 32 00:02:16,996 --> 00:02:21,036 Speaker 1: My friend Jamil Zaki, a psychology professor at Stanford, is 33 00:02:21,076 --> 00:02:23,916 Speaker 1: the person who helped me understand this. So I re 34 00:02:24,076 --> 00:02:26,676 Speaker 1: listened to the conversation we had had on a slight 35 00:02:26,756 --> 00:02:31,396 Speaker 1: Change of Plans, in which Jamil makes the case against cynicism. Today, 36 00:02:31,436 --> 00:02:33,356 Speaker 1: I want to reshare that episode with all of you. 37 00:02:33,956 --> 00:02:37,276 Speaker 1: Jamil explains why hopeful people tend to be more resilient 38 00:02:37,356 --> 00:02:41,716 Speaker 1: during adversity, more successful in accomplishing their goals, and more 39 00:02:41,756 --> 00:02:45,676 Speaker 1: willing to tackle societal problems head on. For me, this 40 00:02:45,836 --> 00:02:49,156 Speaker 1: episode is the antidote to the despair that creeps in 41 00:02:49,356 --> 00:02:51,956 Speaker 1: so easily these days. I hope you enjoy it. 42 00:02:53,556 --> 00:02:56,876 Speaker 2: Cynics might see injustice just like the rest of us do, 43 00:02:57,316 --> 00:03:00,716 Speaker 2: but cynicism suggests that there's nothing really to be done 44 00:03:00,756 --> 00:03:05,476 Speaker 2: about it, because if a broken system reflects our broken nature, 45 00:03:05,756 --> 00:03:08,396 Speaker 2: if the worst of us is who we really are, 46 00:03:08,836 --> 00:03:12,636 Speaker 2: then any change, any attempt to improve the world or 47 00:03:12,676 --> 00:03:16,356 Speaker 2: the systems that we live in, is doomed from the outset. 48 00:03:17,716 --> 00:03:22,276 Speaker 1: Psychologist jimil Zaki studies the science of human connection, and 49 00:03:22,316 --> 00:03:26,236 Speaker 1: he believes that cynicism is holding us back. It's not 50 00:03:26,276 --> 00:03:31,276 Speaker 1: just harmful for health, it's also misguided. The alternative, he says, 51 00:03:31,476 --> 00:03:34,156 Speaker 1: is a mindset called hopeful skepticism. 52 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:36,956 Speaker 2: And the reason that I call it hopeful skepticism is 53 00:03:37,036 --> 00:03:41,596 Speaker 2: because our default tends to be negative. When you adopt 54 00:03:41,956 --> 00:03:45,996 Speaker 2: a skeptical perspective, you do tend to move towards a 55 00:03:46,036 --> 00:03:50,516 Speaker 2: slightly more hopeful and positive place because you're correcting for 56 00:03:50,676 --> 00:03:53,276 Speaker 2: the biases that we already have. People always say, what 57 00:03:53,316 --> 00:03:55,196 Speaker 2: you want me to put on a pair of rose 58 00:03:55,236 --> 00:03:58,636 Speaker 2: colored glasses, and I say, no, you're probably already wearing 59 00:03:58,676 --> 00:04:01,876 Speaker 2: a pair of glasses. That's like mud colored, so just 60 00:04:01,956 --> 00:04:04,956 Speaker 2: take those off right, so that I'm actually not asking 61 00:04:04,956 --> 00:04:08,156 Speaker 2: people to pay less attention, but to pay more attention 62 00:04:08,636 --> 00:04:13,956 Speaker 2: to the folk around them. 63 00:04:14,156 --> 00:04:18,036 Speaker 1: On today's episode, The Life Changing Benefits of being a 64 00:04:18,076 --> 00:04:22,436 Speaker 1: Hopeful Skeptic, I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight 65 00:04:22,556 --> 00:04:25,236 Speaker 1: change of plans, a show about who we are and 66 00:04:25,276 --> 00:04:35,796 Speaker 1: who we'd become in the face of a big change. 67 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:45,236 Speaker 1: Jamil Zaki is a professor of psychology at Stanford University 68 00:04:45,676 --> 00:04:49,516 Speaker 1: and the director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Lab. You 69 00:04:49,596 --> 00:04:52,396 Speaker 1: might remember him from his first appearance on this show, 70 00:04:52,716 --> 00:04:56,276 Speaker 1: when he talked about the power of empathy. Jamil has 71 00:04:56,316 --> 00:04:59,236 Speaker 1: spent the last twenty years studying the sunny side of 72 00:04:59,316 --> 00:05:04,516 Speaker 1: human nature, things like compassion, kindness, and togetherness. He says 73 00:05:04,556 --> 00:05:07,756 Speaker 1: he's widely known as a kind of ambassador for humanity's 74 00:05:07,796 --> 00:05:11,716 Speaker 1: better angels. But in his new book Hope for CENX, 75 00:05:11,836 --> 00:05:16,196 Speaker 1: The Surprising Science of Human Goodness, Jamille talks about struggling 76 00:05:16,196 --> 00:05:19,556 Speaker 1: with this image. He begins the book with a confession. 77 00:05:20,476 --> 00:05:23,996 Speaker 2: This entire time that I've been advocating for and talking 78 00:05:24,036 --> 00:05:28,596 Speaker 2: about human goodness, I myself have been pretty cynical. I 79 00:05:28,756 --> 00:05:32,796 Speaker 2: tend to suspect people and look at the worst sides 80 00:05:32,836 --> 00:05:37,796 Speaker 2: of lots of situations, becoming anxious, neurotic, pessimistic. And I 81 00:05:37,796 --> 00:05:41,876 Speaker 2: feel like that split between my outer persona on the 82 00:05:41,916 --> 00:05:46,116 Speaker 2: one hand and my deepest experiences on the other has 83 00:05:46,156 --> 00:05:47,956 Speaker 2: been a problem for me and did something that I 84 00:05:47,996 --> 00:05:50,636 Speaker 2: wanted to bring out into the light and address. 85 00:05:51,156 --> 00:05:53,556 Speaker 1: I'm curious if you can tell me a bit more 86 00:05:53,596 --> 00:05:56,956 Speaker 1: about that disconnect. Do you remember a story in which 87 00:05:56,996 --> 00:06:00,076 Speaker 1: you met with someone who were giving a group council 88 00:06:00,396 --> 00:06:02,876 Speaker 1: and then you went home and you were kind of like, oh, darn, 89 00:06:02,676 --> 00:06:05,796 Speaker 1: I don't actually think I'm buying what I'm saying. I'm 90 00:06:05,796 --> 00:06:07,996 Speaker 1: not internalizing this, oh. 91 00:06:07,916 --> 00:06:08,796 Speaker 3: One hundred percent. 92 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:12,996 Speaker 2: One of the most intense moments came after TED, the 93 00:06:13,076 --> 00:06:17,236 Speaker 2: global conference that has a lot of great speakers, asked 94 00:06:17,276 --> 00:06:20,796 Speaker 2: me to come and give a talk on optimism as 95 00:06:20,836 --> 00:06:22,796 Speaker 2: a path to positive social change. 96 00:06:23,476 --> 00:06:24,676 Speaker 3: I pulled out my notebook and. 97 00:06:24,636 --> 00:06:27,196 Speaker 2: I said, I'm going to start drafting this talk on 98 00:06:27,276 --> 00:06:30,476 Speaker 2: the first I think Wednesday of the year in twenty 99 00:06:30,516 --> 00:06:33,516 Speaker 2: twenty one, which happened to be January sixth, And I 100 00:06:33,556 --> 00:06:37,636 Speaker 2: remember I started drafting this talk about how you know 101 00:06:37,676 --> 00:06:41,276 Speaker 2: optimism is so important, and my friend texted me and said, 102 00:06:41,276 --> 00:06:43,516 Speaker 2: you have to turn on the television right now. And 103 00:06:44,076 --> 00:06:46,156 Speaker 2: I saw what the rest of the nation and world 104 00:06:46,196 --> 00:06:51,716 Speaker 2: saw with the insurrection at the Capitol Building, and I 105 00:06:51,756 --> 00:06:56,516 Speaker 2: thought to myself, am I full of shit? Is everything 106 00:06:56,556 --> 00:07:00,036 Speaker 2: that I talk about a lie? I know it's not 107 00:07:00,276 --> 00:07:04,276 Speaker 2: because I do the research, I see the data, but 108 00:07:05,076 --> 00:07:08,076 Speaker 2: there's sometimes such a huge distance between your head and 109 00:07:08,116 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 2: your heart, you know, And like I just couldn't believe 110 00:07:11,636 --> 00:07:15,116 Speaker 2: deeper inside myself that people were good as I watched 111 00:07:15,276 --> 00:07:16,636 Speaker 2: this tragedy unfold. 112 00:07:17,116 --> 00:07:21,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, what were the personal costs to being cynical for you? 113 00:07:21,596 --> 00:07:23,316 Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear how that played out. 114 00:07:24,236 --> 00:07:29,836 Speaker 2: During that lockdown period late twenty twenty early twenty twenty one, 115 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:33,756 Speaker 2: I really probably had the rock bottom of my own 116 00:07:33,796 --> 00:07:37,676 Speaker 2: personal cynicism, and it was extremely apparent to me that 117 00:07:37,916 --> 00:07:40,196 Speaker 2: entire time that it was not helping me, that it 118 00:07:40,276 --> 00:07:46,076 Speaker 2: was hurting me emotionally, it was diminishing my relationships. It 119 00:07:46,116 --> 00:07:50,236 Speaker 2: was it felt like a form of social depression, right. 120 00:07:50,396 --> 00:07:54,556 Speaker 2: Depression kind of casts this gray light over everything, and 121 00:07:54,716 --> 00:07:58,436 Speaker 2: especially over your sense of self and the world at large. 122 00:07:58,636 --> 00:08:02,236 Speaker 2: I felt like cynicism was doing that for my vision 123 00:08:02,276 --> 00:08:03,156 Speaker 2: of other people. 124 00:08:03,396 --> 00:08:04,156 Speaker 3: You know, sort of. 125 00:08:04,516 --> 00:08:07,476 Speaker 2: It made it extremely difficult for me to see people 126 00:08:07,476 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 2: in a positive light, and I started exploring the science 127 00:08:10,796 --> 00:08:13,836 Speaker 2: of cynicism because I wanted to figure out what was 128 00:08:13,836 --> 00:08:17,116 Speaker 2: happening inside me and whether there was anything that I 129 00:08:17,156 --> 00:08:21,876 Speaker 2: could do for myself to dig out of this trap 130 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:25,316 Speaker 2: that I felt my mind was in. And it's only 131 00:08:25,356 --> 00:08:30,316 Speaker 2: then that I discovered how common this sense of hopelessness, exhaustion, 132 00:08:30,516 --> 00:08:33,756 Speaker 2: and cynicism really is, which first of all made me 133 00:08:33,796 --> 00:08:35,316 Speaker 2: feel better because I was like, well, at least I'm 134 00:08:35,356 --> 00:08:37,636 Speaker 2: not alone, but then made me feel as I learned 135 00:08:37,716 --> 00:08:40,716 Speaker 2: more and more about how harmful cynicism is, and not 136 00:08:40,756 --> 00:08:45,436 Speaker 2: only how harmful, but how unnecessary it is, I thought, Wow, 137 00:08:45,556 --> 00:08:48,956 Speaker 2: this could actually help a lot of people who feel 138 00:08:48,996 --> 00:08:49,276 Speaker 2: like I. 139 00:08:49,396 --> 00:08:49,556 Speaker 3: Do. 140 00:08:50,596 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 1: You know when you say the word cynicism, Jimille, so 141 00:08:52,916 --> 00:08:58,436 Speaker 1: many images come to mind. What is your definition of cynicism? 142 00:08:59,116 --> 00:09:03,636 Speaker 2: Cynicism can be defined as a theory about the world 143 00:09:04,316 --> 00:09:07,796 Speaker 2: and about people in particular. It's the theory that humanity 144 00:09:08,076 --> 00:09:12,996 Speaker 2: in general is selfish, greedy, and dishonest. That is not 145 00:09:13,116 --> 00:09:15,796 Speaker 2: to say that a cynic will doubt that anybody will 146 00:09:15,836 --> 00:09:18,796 Speaker 2: ever do a kind thing in their lives. They just 147 00:09:18,836 --> 00:09:22,756 Speaker 2: think that at our core, who we are is defined 148 00:09:22,836 --> 00:09:26,156 Speaker 2: by self interest. Now, if you have that theory, you 149 00:09:26,236 --> 00:09:29,036 Speaker 2: might notice a bunch of things happening inside you and 150 00:09:29,236 --> 00:09:32,116 Speaker 2: a bunch of things in your behavior. Right first, you 151 00:09:32,196 --> 00:09:35,956 Speaker 2: might find yourself suspecting other people's motives, even when they 152 00:09:35,996 --> 00:09:39,316 Speaker 2: do things that appear positive. You might find yourself very 153 00:09:39,356 --> 00:09:42,956 Speaker 2: quick to judge others based on the harms that they produce, 154 00:09:43,356 --> 00:09:45,036 Speaker 2: not on the best things that they do. 155 00:09:45,956 --> 00:09:47,956 Speaker 3: It might also change what you do and what you 156 00:09:48,076 --> 00:09:48,556 Speaker 3: don't do. 157 00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:52,276 Speaker 2: One place that we see cynicism play out very strongly 158 00:09:52,356 --> 00:09:56,876 Speaker 2: is in trust. Trust is our willingness to be vulnerable 159 00:09:56,996 --> 00:09:59,356 Speaker 2: to other people on the belief that they have our 160 00:09:59,356 --> 00:10:04,076 Speaker 2: best interest in mind. Loaning somebody money, letting somebody babysit 161 00:10:04,156 --> 00:10:08,396 Speaker 2: your kid, giving somebody more responsibility at work, on your team. 162 00:10:08,476 --> 00:10:11,556 Speaker 2: All of these are types of trust. And trust is 163 00:10:11,596 --> 00:10:15,476 Speaker 2: a social gamble. We can't know what the outcome will be. 164 00:10:15,636 --> 00:10:17,876 Speaker 2: We need to count on other people. And if you're cynical, 165 00:10:18,476 --> 00:10:21,396 Speaker 2: that gamble feels like it's for suckers. It feels like 166 00:10:21,436 --> 00:10:24,316 Speaker 2: a losing bet. So cynics tend to trust a lot 167 00:10:24,436 --> 00:10:25,996 Speaker 2: less often than non cynics. 168 00:10:26,836 --> 00:10:30,316 Speaker 1: You have a very people focused definition, So is that 169 00:10:30,356 --> 00:10:33,796 Speaker 1: intentional and does it exclude those who just think irrespective 170 00:10:33,796 --> 00:10:36,476 Speaker 1: of human involvement, you know, an asteroid might hit us, Like, 171 00:10:36,676 --> 00:10:38,276 Speaker 1: how do you bucket those folks? 172 00:10:38,836 --> 00:10:39,156 Speaker 3: Yeah? 173 00:10:39,236 --> 00:10:43,276 Speaker 2: I think that what you're describing is pessimism, the idea 174 00:10:43,316 --> 00:10:46,276 Speaker 2: that the future will unfold in ways that we don't want. 175 00:10:46,756 --> 00:10:49,996 Speaker 2: And I think that pessimism and cynicism are quite related 176 00:10:50,036 --> 00:10:52,716 Speaker 2: because a lot of what we expect about the future 177 00:10:52,996 --> 00:10:55,156 Speaker 2: has to do with who's around us right now. But 178 00:10:55,516 --> 00:10:59,316 Speaker 2: I do think of cynicism as generally a social theory. 179 00:10:59,716 --> 00:11:04,436 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, that's very helpful. Would you call cynicism the 180 00:11:04,516 --> 00:11:08,316 Speaker 1: default state of the human or like, is that what 181 00:11:08,356 --> 00:11:09,996 Speaker 1: you see in the data or do you think that 182 00:11:10,036 --> 00:11:13,756 Speaker 1: it's somewhat acquired. I'm just curious to know what we're 183 00:11:13,796 --> 00:11:14,636 Speaker 1: running up against. 184 00:11:15,276 --> 00:11:19,036 Speaker 2: So there are some defaults in the human brain and 185 00:11:19,116 --> 00:11:24,156 Speaker 2: mind that tip us towards cynicism. Psychologists talk about negativity bias, 186 00:11:24,716 --> 00:11:28,996 Speaker 2: the idea that it's often much easier to pay attention to, 187 00:11:28,996 --> 00:11:33,556 Speaker 2: to remember, and much more tempting to talk about negative 188 00:11:33,596 --> 00:11:38,196 Speaker 2: events and people than positive events in people. And you 189 00:11:38,236 --> 00:11:42,516 Speaker 2: can see why that would be evolutionarily adaptive, right, you know, 190 00:11:42,516 --> 00:11:45,356 Speaker 2: if you're thinking back one hundred thousand years, the people 191 00:11:45,356 --> 00:11:47,796 Speaker 2: who paid lots of attention to threats in their environment 192 00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:50,796 Speaker 2: might be more likely to survive. And so that's I 193 00:11:50,796 --> 00:11:55,196 Speaker 2: think one thing that makes fighting cynicism an uphill battle. 194 00:11:56,076 --> 00:11:58,076 Speaker 1: You've already alluded to some of the negative impacts of 195 00:11:58,116 --> 00:12:01,556 Speaker 1: cynicism on our well being in relationships. Are there any 196 00:12:01,596 --> 00:12:04,196 Speaker 1: other studies or research that you would want to share? 197 00:12:05,316 --> 00:12:07,956 Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean so one is that. 198 00:12:09,516 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 2: Unfortunately live far less healthy lives, even at a physical level, 199 00:12:13,476 --> 00:12:17,036 Speaker 2: so they tend to show greater signs of cellular aging 200 00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:20,956 Speaker 2: and inflammation, they tend to develop heart disease more than 201 00:12:20,996 --> 00:12:24,316 Speaker 2: non synics, and even die younger than non cynics. And 202 00:12:24,676 --> 00:12:28,876 Speaker 2: I think this comes from the fact that cynics have 203 00:12:28,916 --> 00:12:31,156 Speaker 2: a harder time tapping into one of the things that 204 00:12:31,236 --> 00:12:35,716 Speaker 2: destresses and nourishes us, the most connection to other people. 205 00:12:37,236 --> 00:12:41,716 Speaker 2: There's one really fascinating study where researchers brought people in 206 00:12:41,716 --> 00:12:44,756 Speaker 2: the lab and asked them to give an extemporaneous speech 207 00:12:45,036 --> 00:12:47,156 Speaker 2: on a topic they didn't know very well, which of 208 00:12:47,196 --> 00:12:50,476 Speaker 2: course is not pleasant for anybody. And in some cases 209 00:12:50,836 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 2: people had a cheerleader, a friendly stranger who was with 210 00:12:53,996 --> 00:12:56,396 Speaker 2: them while they prepared and said, you've got this. I 211 00:12:56,476 --> 00:12:59,996 Speaker 2: believe in you. And in other cases they were alone. Now, 212 00:13:00,596 --> 00:13:03,516 Speaker 2: for non cnics, their blood pressure went up when they 213 00:13:03,556 --> 00:13:05,796 Speaker 2: were preparing this speech, that would happen for any of us. 214 00:13:05,956 --> 00:13:08,396 Speaker 2: But when they had a supportive stranger there, their blood 215 00:13:08,396 --> 00:13:11,996 Speaker 2: pressure went up a lot less. For cynics, having a 216 00:13:11,996 --> 00:13:14,916 Speaker 2: supportive person there didn't make a difference at all. So 217 00:13:14,996 --> 00:13:17,436 Speaker 2: their blood pressure increased just as much if they were 218 00:13:17,436 --> 00:13:20,396 Speaker 2: alone or if somebody was there to help them. That 219 00:13:20,556 --> 00:13:22,836 Speaker 2: is so telling to me. It almost strikes me that 220 00:13:23,036 --> 00:13:26,156 Speaker 2: if you're cynical, if you don't believe in people, then 221 00:13:26,556 --> 00:13:31,556 Speaker 2: you kind of can't digest or metabolize the social nourishment 222 00:13:31,956 --> 00:13:34,556 Speaker 2: of connection. And I think that that's just such a 223 00:13:34,596 --> 00:13:35,516 Speaker 2: tragic way to live. 224 00:13:35,876 --> 00:13:41,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, so much of your book I see as mythbusting cynicism. 225 00:13:41,556 --> 00:13:46,036 Speaker 1: And so what are some common misconceptions that people have 226 00:13:46,556 --> 00:13:47,476 Speaker 1: about cynicism. 227 00:13:48,916 --> 00:13:51,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, this was one of the things that was most 228 00:13:51,276 --> 00:13:54,996 Speaker 2: surprising for me when I started doing this research, because 229 00:13:54,996 --> 00:13:58,556 Speaker 2: I thought to myself, Wow, cynicism feels terrible. It's awful 230 00:13:58,596 --> 00:14:01,396 Speaker 2: for our health and relationships, it's not very good for 231 00:14:01,436 --> 00:14:05,876 Speaker 2: our communities. Why are so many people adopting this as 232 00:14:05,916 --> 00:14:08,356 Speaker 2: a view of life and as a view of humanity. 233 00:14:08,876 --> 00:14:12,236 Speaker 2: And there are three myths that I realized our culture 234 00:14:12,276 --> 00:14:16,956 Speaker 2: propagates about cynicism. The first is that it's wise. Now, 235 00:14:17,036 --> 00:14:19,556 Speaker 2: over the last three years since starting this project, I've 236 00:14:19,556 --> 00:14:23,276 Speaker 2: talked to so many self proclaimed cynics, and one thing 237 00:14:23,276 --> 00:14:27,036 Speaker 2: that they have in common, besides hostility and a little 238 00:14:27,076 --> 00:14:31,116 Speaker 2: bit of contempt, is a sort of bitter pride. A 239 00:14:31,156 --> 00:14:33,876 Speaker 2: lot of cynics will say, I'm actually a realist. You 240 00:14:33,956 --> 00:14:37,236 Speaker 2: know that if you don't think in cynical terms, you're 241 00:14:37,396 --> 00:14:41,516 Speaker 2: a naive roube or a chump. That if you pay 242 00:14:41,556 --> 00:14:45,476 Speaker 2: close enough attention and become wise enough, then you will 243 00:14:45,516 --> 00:14:49,436 Speaker 2: realize that people are really terrible. And in fact, it's 244 00:14:49,476 --> 00:14:53,076 Speaker 2: not just cynics who think this. Surveys find that seventy 245 00:14:53,116 --> 00:14:56,756 Speaker 2: percent of people think that cynics are smarter than non cynics, 246 00:14:57,236 --> 00:15:00,436 Speaker 2: and eighty five percent of people think that cynics are 247 00:15:00,636 --> 00:15:03,556 Speaker 2: more socially smart, for instance, that they'll be better at 248 00:15:03,596 --> 00:15:07,076 Speaker 2: picking out liars than nonsnics. It turns out that that's 249 00:15:07,396 --> 00:15:10,996 Speaker 2: not true. So there's from hundreds of thousands of people, 250 00:15:11,476 --> 00:15:15,316 Speaker 2: lots of national surveys that finds that cynics actually perform 251 00:15:15,396 --> 00:15:18,716 Speaker 2: less well on cognitive tests than non cynics, And there 252 00:15:18,796 --> 00:15:21,636 Speaker 2: is other research that finds that cynics are worse at 253 00:15:21,636 --> 00:15:26,076 Speaker 2: spotting liars than non cynics. So it's important to know 254 00:15:26,116 --> 00:15:29,596 Speaker 2: that that perception of cynicism as a type of intelligence 255 00:15:30,036 --> 00:15:32,836 Speaker 2: is clearly at odds with the data. 256 00:15:33,236 --> 00:15:35,556 Speaker 1: Let's talk a bit more about some of the other 257 00:15:35,636 --> 00:15:37,836 Speaker 1: misconceptions we have about cynicism. 258 00:15:38,476 --> 00:15:42,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that another misconception that I think people 259 00:15:42,356 --> 00:15:44,156 Speaker 2: have about cynicism is that it's safe. 260 00:15:45,036 --> 00:15:45,236 Speaker 3: You know. 261 00:15:45,396 --> 00:15:48,276 Speaker 2: I think a lot of us who feel cynical about 262 00:15:48,396 --> 00:15:53,596 Speaker 2: others feel that way because we've been hurt, betrayed, disappointed, 263 00:15:53,956 --> 00:15:56,996 Speaker 2: you know. I know for me, my cynicism comes from 264 00:15:57,796 --> 00:16:00,196 Speaker 2: a lot of early parts of my life where I 265 00:16:00,196 --> 00:16:02,396 Speaker 2: didn't feel like I could really count on people. And 266 00:16:02,436 --> 00:16:04,156 Speaker 2: so it's not something that I feel because I think 267 00:16:04,196 --> 00:16:07,276 Speaker 2: I'm superior to others, or because I want to have 268 00:16:07,316 --> 00:16:11,316 Speaker 2: a negative attitude of a response to pain, and one 269 00:16:11,476 --> 00:16:13,996 Speaker 2: response that we might have to pain is to put 270 00:16:13,996 --> 00:16:16,236 Speaker 2: our guard up to feel like well, I never want 271 00:16:16,236 --> 00:16:19,236 Speaker 2: to experience that again. I don't want to be betrayed 272 00:16:19,316 --> 00:16:21,916 Speaker 2: or heard again. And the only way I can guarantee 273 00:16:22,436 --> 00:16:26,396 Speaker 2: my own safety moving forward is to shut off any 274 00:16:26,436 --> 00:16:29,836 Speaker 2: type of social risk. And that's why I think you 275 00:16:29,916 --> 00:16:33,076 Speaker 2: often see cynics not willing to trust people because they 276 00:16:33,076 --> 00:16:36,396 Speaker 2: don't want to risk betrayal, They don't want to risk 277 00:16:36,476 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 2: being taken advantage of. 278 00:16:38,556 --> 00:16:41,956 Speaker 1: No. I totally appreciate that. Why don't we cover jmial 279 00:16:42,116 --> 00:16:45,996 Speaker 1: the third misconception that people have when it comes to cynicism. 280 00:16:46,676 --> 00:16:50,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, the third misconception around cynicism is the idea that 281 00:16:50,996 --> 00:16:55,916 Speaker 2: cynicism is moral, that that really it's so important to 282 00:16:56,556 --> 00:17:01,596 Speaker 2: be aware of injustice, corruption and harm, and that cynics 283 00:17:01,636 --> 00:17:05,676 Speaker 2: are the only ones who are adequately responsive to all 284 00:17:05,756 --> 00:17:08,516 Speaker 2: the terrible things that happen in the world, and as 285 00:17:08,516 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 2: a result, that being hopeful or positive is kind of 286 00:17:12,396 --> 00:17:16,316 Speaker 2: an abandonment of our species and our problems, that it's 287 00:17:16,356 --> 00:17:19,036 Speaker 2: a pair of rose colored glasses. You know, when I 288 00:17:19,116 --> 00:17:22,596 Speaker 2: talk about hope and overcoming cynicism, a lot of people say, well, 289 00:17:22,596 --> 00:17:26,916 Speaker 2: that's rich coming from you, an ultra privileged professor at 290 00:17:26,956 --> 00:17:29,516 Speaker 2: an elite university. You know, a lot of us don't 291 00:17:29,556 --> 00:17:33,396 Speaker 2: have the luxury of feeling good about humanity. We have 292 00:17:33,516 --> 00:17:38,956 Speaker 2: to speak truth to power and challenge injustice. And first 293 00:17:38,956 --> 00:17:43,196 Speaker 2: of all, I think cynics might see injustice just like 294 00:17:43,236 --> 00:17:46,796 Speaker 2: the rest of us do. But cynicism suggests that there's 295 00:17:46,836 --> 00:17:48,876 Speaker 2: nothing really to be done about it. Because if a 296 00:17:48,876 --> 00:17:53,676 Speaker 2: broken system reflects our broken nature, if the worst of 297 00:17:53,796 --> 00:17:57,716 Speaker 2: us is who we really are, than any change, any 298 00:17:57,796 --> 00:18:00,636 Speaker 2: attempt to improve the world or the systems that we 299 00:18:00,676 --> 00:18:04,236 Speaker 2: live in is doomed from the outset. And so you 300 00:18:04,276 --> 00:18:07,716 Speaker 2: actually see more cynical people are less likely to take 301 00:18:07,796 --> 00:18:11,236 Speaker 2: part in social moved, they're less likely to vote, They're 302 00:18:11,276 --> 00:18:14,196 Speaker 2: more willing to do things like spread conspiracy theories. And 303 00:18:14,236 --> 00:18:19,196 Speaker 2: in fact, I think that autocrats and authoritarians often benefit 304 00:18:19,476 --> 00:18:22,996 Speaker 2: from cynicism and use it as a way of promoting 305 00:18:22,996 --> 00:18:26,236 Speaker 2: the status quo. I mean, a population that doesn't trust 306 00:18:26,236 --> 00:18:29,436 Speaker 2: itself is an easy one to manipulate. 307 00:18:29,596 --> 00:18:32,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, do you think there's an element of guilt? 308 00:18:32,716 --> 00:18:39,356 Speaker 1: Like do people feel guilty when they express optimism? Because 309 00:18:40,476 --> 00:18:42,876 Speaker 1: it just feels jarring when you see all the pain 310 00:18:43,116 --> 00:18:44,236 Speaker 1: and suffering around you. 311 00:18:45,316 --> 00:18:48,276 Speaker 2: This is such a deep question, and I do want 312 00:18:48,276 --> 00:18:51,876 Speaker 2: to separate optimism from hope here. Yeah, optimism is the 313 00:18:51,956 --> 00:18:55,316 Speaker 2: idea that things will turn out well. Hope is the 314 00:18:55,396 --> 00:18:58,876 Speaker 2: idea that they could turn out well. And I think 315 00:18:59,036 --> 00:19:03,156 Speaker 2: that's a huge distinction, because optimism can lead a little 316 00:19:03,196 --> 00:19:05,476 Speaker 2: bit to complacency. You know, if things are going to 317 00:19:05,596 --> 00:19:07,836 Speaker 2: go great, then I don't really have to do anything 318 00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:10,476 Speaker 2: to make a difference. And in fact, I think that 319 00:19:11,116 --> 00:19:14,036 Speaker 2: what you could call toxic optimism is not that different 320 00:19:14,076 --> 00:19:16,876 Speaker 2: from cynicism. If cynics think, well, things are going to 321 00:19:16,916 --> 00:19:19,476 Speaker 2: go terribly no matter what I do, they can also 322 00:19:19,836 --> 00:19:20,596 Speaker 2: be complacent. 323 00:19:20,876 --> 00:19:22,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, an optimists are like, things are going to go 324 00:19:22,836 --> 00:19:24,356 Speaker 1: great no matter what I do, so I'm not going 325 00:19:24,356 --> 00:19:24,916 Speaker 1: to do anything. 326 00:19:25,356 --> 00:19:28,796 Speaker 2: So you've got two groups of people who have fundamentally 327 00:19:28,796 --> 00:19:31,716 Speaker 2: different beliefs, but neither one of them might be inspired 328 00:19:31,756 --> 00:19:36,116 Speaker 2: to do much. Hope takes the deep uncertainty that we 329 00:19:36,196 --> 00:19:39,916 Speaker 2: have about the future as the place where our actions matter, 330 00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:45,356 Speaker 2: and so hopeful people tend to focus on their agency 331 00:19:45,996 --> 00:19:48,236 Speaker 2: and they think, well, there's a vision of the world 332 00:19:48,236 --> 00:19:50,636 Speaker 2: where things could be better. I'm not saying that's what 333 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:54,756 Speaker 2: will happen, but it's a possibility, and in order for 334 00:19:54,836 --> 00:19:58,076 Speaker 2: that possibility to become more likely, I need to take action. 335 00:19:58,796 --> 00:20:03,236 Speaker 2: Hopeful individuals, for instance, tend to be more resilient during adversity. 336 00:20:03,796 --> 00:20:08,636 Speaker 2: Lower socio economic and underrepresented minority students who have hope 337 00:20:08,676 --> 00:20:12,436 Speaker 2: are more like likely to pursue their academic goals and 338 00:20:12,716 --> 00:20:16,556 Speaker 2: socially as well. Hopeful people are more willing to engage 339 00:20:16,636 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 2: in protests. Right, A protest is not a complacent, rose 340 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:23,676 Speaker 2: colored glasses type of thing to do. It's taking major 341 00:20:23,716 --> 00:20:26,636 Speaker 2: problems head on. But why do we take those problems 342 00:20:26,676 --> 00:20:29,356 Speaker 2: head on? Because we think that there's a difference to 343 00:20:29,396 --> 00:20:30,516 Speaker 2: be made. 344 00:20:30,756 --> 00:20:35,516 Speaker 1: You advocate in your book for quote Unlearning cynicism, and 345 00:20:36,356 --> 00:20:41,236 Speaker 1: you introduce this concept of hopeful skepticism. You've already explained 346 00:20:41,276 --> 00:20:43,756 Speaker 1: how hope is different from optimism. Can you explain what 347 00:20:43,796 --> 00:20:45,796 Speaker 1: you mean by hopeful skepticism. 348 00:20:46,396 --> 00:20:49,756 Speaker 2: One of the most important things that I learned in 349 00:20:50,196 --> 00:20:54,156 Speaker 2: doing research for this project was the difference between cynicism 350 00:20:54,196 --> 00:20:57,676 Speaker 2: and skepticism. As we've talked about, cynicism is a theory 351 00:20:57,836 --> 00:20:58,836 Speaker 2: about the world. 352 00:20:59,076 --> 00:20:59,756 Speaker 3: Well, as you know. 353 00:20:59,796 --> 00:21:02,236 Speaker 2: As a scientist, once you have a theory, you start 354 00:21:02,276 --> 00:21:04,876 Speaker 2: to kind of see it everywhere and even want to 355 00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:07,916 Speaker 2: support it, and so there can be some confirmation bias 356 00:21:07,956 --> 00:21:11,756 Speaker 2: around theories often have a biased way of looking at 357 00:21:11,756 --> 00:21:13,796 Speaker 2: the world. They almost look at it like lawyers right 358 00:21:13,916 --> 00:21:17,396 Speaker 2: and the prosecution against humanity. They really pay lots of 359 00:21:17,436 --> 00:21:19,996 Speaker 2: attention to the terrible things that people do, or they 360 00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:25,396 Speaker 2: might explain away the others' kindness and trustworthiness. Skepticism is 361 00:21:26,276 --> 00:21:29,516 Speaker 2: not thinking like a lawyer, but thinking like a scientist. 362 00:21:30,156 --> 00:21:34,356 Speaker 2: Skeptics don't necessarily have some huge assumption or theory about 363 00:21:34,356 --> 00:21:38,916 Speaker 2: what people are like. Instead, they look for evidence. They're 364 00:21:39,036 --> 00:21:43,636 Speaker 2: unwilling to rest on early and easy judgments. And because 365 00:21:43,636 --> 00:21:48,036 Speaker 2: of that, skepticism is really different from cynicism, and skeptics, 366 00:21:48,156 --> 00:21:53,436 Speaker 2: unlike cinics, can learn really quickly, can adapt to new situations, 367 00:21:53,756 --> 00:21:58,036 Speaker 2: and become much more accurate about people than cynics do. 368 00:21:59,276 --> 00:22:02,236 Speaker 1: One of the quotes that I really enjoyed from your book, 369 00:22:02,356 --> 00:22:05,796 Speaker 1: and I thought articulated the point well, is that hope 370 00:22:05,876 --> 00:22:08,676 Speaker 1: is not a naive way of approaching the world. It's 371 00:22:08,676 --> 00:22:11,916 Speaker 1: an act, your response to the best data available. 372 00:22:12,916 --> 00:22:16,036 Speaker 2: It's really a point I want to drive home because 373 00:22:16,436 --> 00:22:18,396 Speaker 2: a lot of people when they hear hope, they think 374 00:22:18,436 --> 00:22:20,316 Speaker 2: of somebody with their head in the sand. They think 375 00:22:20,356 --> 00:22:25,476 Speaker 2: of somebody ignoring data as opposed to approaching data. One 376 00:22:25,516 --> 00:22:28,876 Speaker 2: of the important points though, and the reason that I 377 00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:32,916 Speaker 2: call it hopeful skepticism is because our default tends to 378 00:22:32,956 --> 00:22:37,476 Speaker 2: be negative. When you adopt a skeptical perspective, you do 379 00:22:37,636 --> 00:22:41,876 Speaker 2: tend to move towards a slightly more hopeful and positive 380 00:22:41,916 --> 00:22:45,636 Speaker 2: place because you're correcting for the biases that we already have. 381 00:22:45,676 --> 00:22:47,676 Speaker 2: People always say, what you want me to put on 382 00:22:47,716 --> 00:22:50,196 Speaker 2: a pair of rose colored glasses, and I say, no, 383 00:22:50,716 --> 00:22:54,036 Speaker 2: you're probably already wearing a pair of glasses that's like 384 00:22:54,156 --> 00:22:57,236 Speaker 2: mud colored, So just take those off right, so that 385 00:22:57,516 --> 00:23:00,516 Speaker 2: I'm actually not asking people to pay less attention, but 386 00:23:00,636 --> 00:23:05,676 Speaker 2: to pay more attention to the folks around them. 387 00:23:05,916 --> 00:23:09,916 Speaker 1: After the break, Jamille teaches us how to practice hopeful skepticism. 388 00:23:10,476 --> 00:23:12,556 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 389 00:23:12,556 --> 00:23:26,556 Speaker 1: of plans, Jimille. The hopeful part of all this is 390 00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:30,196 Speaker 1: that hopeful skepticism is in fact a skill that we 391 00:23:30,236 --> 00:23:32,516 Speaker 1: can build. So why don't we talk a bit about 392 00:23:32,516 --> 00:23:35,436 Speaker 1: how it is that we can build that muscle. In 393 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:38,316 Speaker 1: your book, you have this, you know, wonderful practical guide, 394 00:23:38,396 --> 00:23:41,436 Speaker 1: and I'm hoping that we can share with listeners a 395 00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:45,676 Speaker 1: few examples of some of these overarching strategies. The first 396 00:23:45,716 --> 00:23:50,316 Speaker 1: you say is to connect with your core values. Tell 397 00:23:50,356 --> 00:23:51,356 Speaker 1: me what that looks. 398 00:23:51,116 --> 00:23:53,836 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, you know, it's interesting. It turns out that 399 00:23:54,036 --> 00:23:58,756 Speaker 2: although cynics have a lot of judgment and contempt for 400 00:23:58,796 --> 00:24:02,716 Speaker 2: other people, they also tend to say that they rely 401 00:24:02,916 --> 00:24:05,396 Speaker 2: on other people more for their sense of self worth 402 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:09,276 Speaker 2: than the non cynics. So there's a sense that when 403 00:24:09,316 --> 00:24:13,796 Speaker 2: we can't trust ourselves very deeply, it's hard to trust others. 404 00:24:14,756 --> 00:24:18,076 Speaker 2: It turns out that one of the best ways to 405 00:24:18,196 --> 00:24:22,796 Speaker 2: start overcoming cynicism is to connect in new ways to ourselves. 406 00:24:23,076 --> 00:24:26,516 Speaker 2: My colleague at Stanford, Jeff Cohen, has a lot of 407 00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:30,276 Speaker 2: work on this through what he calls values affirmation. So 408 00:24:30,516 --> 00:24:34,836 Speaker 2: values affirmation is where you consider what matters most to 409 00:24:34,876 --> 00:24:36,956 Speaker 2: you in life. You'll see a list of, for instance, 410 00:24:36,996 --> 00:24:39,436 Speaker 2: twenty things that people often say they care a lot about, 411 00:24:39,476 --> 00:24:41,276 Speaker 2: and you'll be asked, well, what are your top three 412 00:24:41,516 --> 00:24:43,916 Speaker 2: or what's your top one, And then you're asked to 413 00:24:43,916 --> 00:24:46,636 Speaker 2: write about, well, why does it matter to you and 414 00:24:46,676 --> 00:24:49,036 Speaker 2: what are some ways that you express that value in 415 00:24:49,076 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 2: your life. 416 00:24:50,156 --> 00:24:51,036 Speaker 3: And it turns out that. 417 00:24:50,996 --> 00:24:54,636 Speaker 2: This simple exercise, just ten fifteen minutes of writing about 418 00:24:54,636 --> 00:24:57,596 Speaker 2: what really matters to you and how you live your values, 419 00:24:58,356 --> 00:25:00,756 Speaker 2: instills a kind of deep confidence in people. 420 00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:01,556 Speaker 3: I'm not talking. 421 00:25:01,396 --> 00:25:06,916 Speaker 2: About braggadocious arrogance, but rather a sense of sturdiness, a 422 00:25:06,996 --> 00:25:10,596 Speaker 2: sense of solid foundation. And when we have that sense 423 00:25:10,636 --> 00:25:15,156 Speaker 2: of stirtiness internally, we're more willing to be open to others. 424 00:25:15,636 --> 00:25:18,636 Speaker 2: Jeff finds that when people affirm their own values, they 425 00:25:18,636 --> 00:25:22,756 Speaker 2: feel less threatened by information that conflicts with their beliefs 426 00:25:22,836 --> 00:25:25,836 Speaker 2: and more open minded. And that's why I think it 427 00:25:25,916 --> 00:25:29,156 Speaker 2: might tap us in also to a sense of skepticism 428 00:25:29,556 --> 00:25:31,836 Speaker 2: and hopeful skepticism about other people. 429 00:25:32,916 --> 00:25:35,236 Speaker 1: You talk about this in terms of, you know, better 430 00:25:35,396 --> 00:25:39,156 Speaker 1: connecting to ourselves, and I wonder I'm just thinking out loud. 431 00:25:39,156 --> 00:25:42,116 Speaker 1: I mean, here's one way in which I think increasing 432 00:25:42,156 --> 00:25:44,556 Speaker 1: self compassion could be a vehicle through which we have 433 00:25:44,636 --> 00:25:48,756 Speaker 1: more hope. So when we do fail or we make 434 00:25:48,796 --> 00:25:52,196 Speaker 1: some sort of mistake, we can overconclude from that incident. Right, 435 00:25:52,236 --> 00:25:54,516 Speaker 1: So rather than saying I made a mistake, it's I'm 436 00:25:54,556 --> 00:25:56,076 Speaker 1: a mistake. There's no redemption. 437 00:25:56,236 --> 00:25:56,756 Speaker 3: Yeah. 438 00:25:56,796 --> 00:26:01,356 Speaker 1: And if I have more self compassion and I believe, okay, 439 00:26:01,596 --> 00:26:04,596 Speaker 1: well I made a mistake, I myself not a mistake, 440 00:26:05,036 --> 00:26:08,156 Speaker 1: I might be more willing to assume that posture with 441 00:26:08,236 --> 00:26:10,636 Speaker 1: other people in my life, like, oh, that person hurt me, 442 00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:13,396 Speaker 1: But they might not be like a hurtful person, like 443 00:26:13,436 --> 00:26:15,916 Speaker 1: someone who loves hurting others. They might just have aired 444 00:26:16,916 --> 00:26:17,996 Speaker 1: in a particular way. 445 00:26:18,636 --> 00:26:19,756 Speaker 3: That's beautifully put. 446 00:26:19,836 --> 00:26:22,476 Speaker 2: I love that, And I think there's a lot of 447 00:26:22,756 --> 00:26:27,436 Speaker 2: evidence that when we judge people in a trait based way, 448 00:26:27,996 --> 00:26:30,836 Speaker 2: we see an action that they take and we decide 449 00:26:30,916 --> 00:26:34,476 Speaker 2: that action defines them. That closes us off not just 450 00:26:34,516 --> 00:26:37,116 Speaker 2: to compassion for that person, but it makes it very 451 00:26:37,116 --> 00:26:40,396 Speaker 2: easy for us to think cynically about that individual. In fact, 452 00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:45,236 Speaker 2: cynicism is a sort of fixed view of humanity. 453 00:26:44,836 --> 00:26:47,516 Speaker 1: Right exactly. That's what I'm trying to get at. It's like, yeah, yeah, 454 00:26:47,556 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 1: there is actually hope for this person to change because 455 00:26:49,636 --> 00:26:51,196 Speaker 1: I think I can change. 456 00:26:51,436 --> 00:26:53,276 Speaker 3: I love that. Yeah, No, I think that's right. 457 00:26:53,636 --> 00:26:56,796 Speaker 1: Let's go to the second strategy for building hopeful skepticism, 458 00:26:56,876 --> 00:27:00,316 Speaker 1: and you say that is to be skeptical of your cynicism. 459 00:27:00,396 --> 00:27:02,396 Speaker 1: So tell me a bit more about what that process 460 00:27:02,396 --> 00:27:02,956 Speaker 1: can look like. 461 00:27:04,236 --> 00:27:07,556 Speaker 2: This is something that I drew in trying to overcome 462 00:27:07,556 --> 00:27:13,476 Speaker 2: my own cynicism from tools in cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT. 463 00:27:13,996 --> 00:27:17,956 Speaker 2: So when I started CBT in my twenties, my therapist 464 00:27:18,076 --> 00:27:21,716 Speaker 2: told me, Okay, what are your beliefs about yourself and 465 00:27:21,756 --> 00:27:24,996 Speaker 2: about the world. Write them down and then try to 466 00:27:24,996 --> 00:27:27,516 Speaker 2: think about them scientifically. What evidence do you have to 467 00:27:27,556 --> 00:27:31,036 Speaker 2: support them? And I wrote down some of my very 468 00:27:31,036 --> 00:27:33,756 Speaker 2: negative beliefs at the time. At the time, I really 469 00:27:33,756 --> 00:27:38,116 Speaker 2: felt like if I am not positive all the time, 470 00:27:39,316 --> 00:27:42,956 Speaker 2: people won't like me. That I need to entertain or 471 00:27:43,116 --> 00:27:46,116 Speaker 2: provide people with good vibes in order for them to 472 00:27:46,116 --> 00:27:50,156 Speaker 2: stay in my life. I felt like expressing that true 473 00:27:50,196 --> 00:27:55,876 Speaker 2: self when my true self was unattractive or gloomy, would 474 00:27:55,956 --> 00:27:58,396 Speaker 2: lead people to flee. But I had no evidence for 475 00:27:58,436 --> 00:28:01,116 Speaker 2: it because I had never really tried. I had never 476 00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:03,636 Speaker 2: been open with other people about what I was going 477 00:28:03,676 --> 00:28:07,436 Speaker 2: through or feeling. And so my therapist then said, Okay, 478 00:28:07,476 --> 00:28:09,716 Speaker 2: you've got this belief, you don't have any other for it. 479 00:28:10,596 --> 00:28:14,316 Speaker 2: Why don't you collect some data, Why don't you try 480 00:28:14,316 --> 00:28:20,116 Speaker 2: to test your hypotheses? And both of these steps understanding 481 00:28:20,156 --> 00:28:22,796 Speaker 2: what our beliefs are and whether we have evidence for 482 00:28:22,836 --> 00:28:26,316 Speaker 2: them and then testing them could be tools for being 483 00:28:26,356 --> 00:28:28,476 Speaker 2: skeptical of our own cynicism. 484 00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:31,916 Speaker 1: Yeah. I wonder how that played out for you, because 485 00:28:32,596 --> 00:28:34,516 Speaker 1: I know in your book you said people used to 486 00:28:34,516 --> 00:28:37,876 Speaker 1: call you Guy Smiley, so you were definitely battling a 487 00:28:37,916 --> 00:28:42,036 Speaker 1: pretty strong reputation. So what steps did you take to 488 00:28:42,116 --> 00:28:45,516 Speaker 1: test out this theory that you had to be a 489 00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:47,036 Speaker 1: certain way in order to be liked. 490 00:28:47,596 --> 00:28:51,396 Speaker 2: One example from more recently, a few years ago now, 491 00:28:51,436 --> 00:28:55,076 Speaker 2: a couple of new faculty members joined my department and 492 00:28:55,156 --> 00:28:58,156 Speaker 2: we went out for drinks and they said, well, what's 493 00:28:58,196 --> 00:29:00,716 Speaker 2: it like to be a professor here at Stanford? And 494 00:29:00,956 --> 00:29:03,996 Speaker 2: you know, I had my guy smiley response already, you know, 495 00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:05,356 Speaker 2: it's the best job in the world. 496 00:29:05,356 --> 00:29:06,036 Speaker 3: I can't believe it. 497 00:29:06,316 --> 00:29:10,596 Speaker 2: But instead I decided to answer honestly, and I said, 498 00:29:11,156 --> 00:29:15,076 Speaker 2: it's terrifying. You know, you never feel like you deserve 499 00:29:15,196 --> 00:29:18,436 Speaker 2: this job, because nobody really deserves it. You have to 500 00:29:18,476 --> 00:29:22,876 Speaker 2: be so lucky to get here, and it's incredibly easy 501 00:29:22,916 --> 00:29:25,156 Speaker 2: to feel like an impostor and to feel like any 502 00:29:25,196 --> 00:29:29,636 Speaker 2: mistake you make is just proof that the university made 503 00:29:29,676 --> 00:29:32,996 Speaker 2: a mistake in hiring you. And I still remember the 504 00:29:33,356 --> 00:29:36,956 Speaker 2: seconds of silence that followed this, you know, rant that 505 00:29:36,956 --> 00:29:39,236 Speaker 2: these people had not asked for at our first time 506 00:29:39,556 --> 00:29:42,396 Speaker 2: hanging out, and they felt like ours to me. And 507 00:29:42,476 --> 00:29:46,716 Speaker 2: I also remember the relief that poured out of these. 508 00:29:46,556 --> 00:29:47,636 Speaker 3: New faculty members. 509 00:29:47,676 --> 00:29:50,196 Speaker 2: They said, Wow, it means so much to hear somebody 510 00:29:50,196 --> 00:29:54,476 Speaker 2: who we see as succeeding open up about this. And 511 00:29:54,516 --> 00:29:57,596 Speaker 2: we ended up becoming really fast friends. And even now 512 00:29:57,796 --> 00:30:00,676 Speaker 2: years later, we get together about once a quarter and 513 00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:03,676 Speaker 2: we have something called beer and wine where we drink 514 00:30:03,716 --> 00:30:06,236 Speaker 2: beer and wine but with an h you know, we 515 00:30:06,316 --> 00:30:09,636 Speaker 2: complain and vent and open up. And but again, so 516 00:30:09,716 --> 00:30:14,276 Speaker 2: for me, being positive was inauthentic. Sometimes it was a 517 00:30:14,316 --> 00:30:19,516 Speaker 2: defense mechanism, and being honest about my struggles showed that 518 00:30:19,596 --> 00:30:23,516 Speaker 2: I believed in the people around me. I believed that 519 00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:26,796 Speaker 2: they would have my back, and more often than not 520 00:30:27,476 --> 00:30:31,156 Speaker 2: they did. So the experiments that I did in my life, 521 00:30:31,716 --> 00:30:34,036 Speaker 2: the data came back shockingly positive. 522 00:30:34,676 --> 00:30:38,916 Speaker 1: Yeah. So the final strategy is to practice what you 523 00:30:38,956 --> 00:30:41,636 Speaker 1: call social saving. Tell me more. 524 00:30:42,636 --> 00:30:42,916 Speaker 3: Yeah. 525 00:30:43,036 --> 00:30:46,876 Speaker 2: Savoring is generally the practice of appreciating good things as 526 00:30:46,876 --> 00:30:51,516 Speaker 2: they happen, and it's related to, but distinct from gratitude, 527 00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:54,396 Speaker 2: which is generally appreciating the good things. 528 00:30:54,116 --> 00:30:55,076 Speaker 3: That have happened. 529 00:30:55,596 --> 00:30:58,956 Speaker 2: So I practice savoring a lot with my kids. We 530 00:30:58,996 --> 00:31:03,636 Speaker 2: will do things like ice cream eating class or sunset 531 00:31:03,716 --> 00:31:07,436 Speaker 2: watching class, where we will enjoy something, but we'll enjoy 532 00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:09,996 Speaker 2: it very carefully. You know, I'll say, well, what do 533 00:31:10,036 --> 00:31:12,636 Speaker 2: you like about how this tastes or the texture of 534 00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:14,316 Speaker 2: the ice cream? What do you want to remember about 535 00:31:14,316 --> 00:31:18,236 Speaker 2: this moment? Just pointing our awareness towards the good things 536 00:31:18,316 --> 00:31:22,476 Speaker 2: in our lives, and social savoring is in essence, taking 537 00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:25,956 Speaker 2: that same general strategy, but pointing it towards other people. 538 00:31:26,516 --> 00:31:30,396 Speaker 2: And so for me, social savoring has two parts. One 539 00:31:30,476 --> 00:31:35,156 Speaker 2: is paying attention to and looking for examples of people 540 00:31:35,236 --> 00:31:37,276 Speaker 2: doing good in the world. And I'm not talking about 541 00:31:37,556 --> 00:31:39,756 Speaker 2: heroics that you see in the news. I'm talking about 542 00:31:39,796 --> 00:31:42,036 Speaker 2: walking around a city and seeing people pick up litter 543 00:31:42,676 --> 00:31:46,676 Speaker 2: or helping somebody who's in need, for instance. The second 544 00:31:46,716 --> 00:31:50,156 Speaker 2: part of social savoring is not just to notice the 545 00:31:50,196 --> 00:31:52,796 Speaker 2: goodness that's all around us all the time, but to 546 00:31:52,836 --> 00:31:56,836 Speaker 2: share it. When you socially savor with others, you help 547 00:31:56,916 --> 00:32:00,676 Speaker 2: fight their cynicism. But you also in changing what you say, 548 00:32:00,876 --> 00:32:03,636 Speaker 2: change the way that you think, your habits of speech 549 00:32:03,676 --> 00:32:06,476 Speaker 2: become habits of mind, and help kind of pop up 550 00:32:06,516 --> 00:32:09,116 Speaker 2: an antenna in your own mind for the goodness of others, 551 00:32:09,316 --> 00:32:11,796 Speaker 2: which of course is not that hard to find once 552 00:32:11,796 --> 00:32:13,556 Speaker 2: you start to look for it. Yeah. 553 00:32:13,756 --> 00:32:16,476 Speaker 1: Yeah. One lesson I internalized early for my mom is 554 00:32:16,716 --> 00:32:20,036 Speaker 1: especially when engaging with people in the service industry is 555 00:32:20,076 --> 00:32:22,876 Speaker 1: they're always hearing complaints, and so her goal is always 556 00:32:22,876 --> 00:32:25,596 Speaker 1: to counteract that by every time she has a really 557 00:32:25,636 --> 00:32:29,036 Speaker 1: positive experience, making sure she calls in the manager and says, 558 00:32:29,076 --> 00:32:30,876 Speaker 1: you know, so and so is so amazing and so 559 00:32:30,956 --> 00:32:33,236 Speaker 1: excellent and so. Just the other day, I was flying 560 00:32:33,276 --> 00:32:36,236 Speaker 1: back from New York and our flight attendant was just 561 00:32:36,276 --> 00:32:37,996 Speaker 1: so kind, and I just called her over and I 562 00:32:38,076 --> 00:32:39,516 Speaker 1: was like, Hey, I just need you to know you 563 00:32:39,556 --> 00:32:42,996 Speaker 1: are such a kind, cheerful presence, and it's made my 564 00:32:43,076 --> 00:32:45,436 Speaker 1: day and it's made this flight so much better. And 565 00:32:46,396 --> 00:32:49,356 Speaker 1: I thought in that moment about the impact that sharing 566 00:32:49,396 --> 00:32:51,396 Speaker 1: that with her would have on her. But I didn't 567 00:32:51,436 --> 00:32:53,316 Speaker 1: think in that moment about what you're sharing with me now, 568 00:32:53,316 --> 00:32:55,996 Speaker 1: which is what impact it probably had on me and 569 00:32:56,076 --> 00:32:57,156 Speaker 1: my view of humanity. 570 00:32:58,516 --> 00:33:00,276 Speaker 3: I love that. It's a lot. 571 00:33:00,356 --> 00:33:02,996 Speaker 2: I mean, our culture is so full of people giving 572 00:33:03,116 --> 00:33:07,236 Speaker 2: life one star reviews on yelcha you and giving all 573 00:33:07,276 --> 00:33:10,156 Speaker 2: the people around them one star review use. But if 574 00:33:10,156 --> 00:33:13,156 Speaker 2: that's all we do, if the loudest conversations we have 575 00:33:13,236 --> 00:33:16,516 Speaker 2: are about the worst things that happen, yeah, then we 576 00:33:16,556 --> 00:33:19,236 Speaker 2: will end up with a skewed view of the world 577 00:33:19,396 --> 00:33:20,116 Speaker 2: and of each other. 578 00:33:21,196 --> 00:33:24,596 Speaker 1: I'm curious to know how writing this book and engaging 579 00:33:24,956 --> 00:33:29,636 Speaker 1: with the research on hope and cynicism has transformed your 580 00:33:29,676 --> 00:33:32,276 Speaker 1: own outlook on life. Right, So you came into this saying, Okay, 581 00:33:32,316 --> 00:33:35,836 Speaker 1: I'm going to confess that I am a cynic. How 582 00:33:35,836 --> 00:33:37,596 Speaker 1: has it changed the way that you live your life? 583 00:33:37,636 --> 00:33:39,876 Speaker 1: How has it changed your relationship with some of your 584 00:33:40,156 --> 00:33:42,916 Speaker 1: big fears? Yeah, share with me any reflections you have. 585 00:33:44,436 --> 00:33:48,236 Speaker 2: I don't consider myself an ex cynic. I consider myself 586 00:33:48,276 --> 00:33:49,356 Speaker 2: a recovering cynic. 587 00:33:49,516 --> 00:33:49,716 Speaker 1: Yeah. 588 00:33:49,916 --> 00:33:52,676 Speaker 2: Right, In that I work on this all the time, 589 00:33:52,796 --> 00:33:55,916 Speaker 2: I still have the same defaults. I still have the 590 00:33:55,956 --> 00:33:59,356 Speaker 2: same instincts. I think that one of the things that 591 00:33:59,396 --> 00:34:01,516 Speaker 2: this project has changed in me is that I'm more 592 00:34:01,556 --> 00:34:05,036 Speaker 2: aware that when I'm thinking in gloomy or cynical terms, 593 00:34:05,436 --> 00:34:07,876 Speaker 2: that that doesn't mean that I'm right. So I guess 594 00:34:07,916 --> 00:34:11,036 Speaker 2: I trust my sin. This is less I'm more skeptical 595 00:34:11,076 --> 00:34:13,476 Speaker 2: of it. That is something that I can say I've achieved. 596 00:34:14,676 --> 00:34:18,436 Speaker 2: And then this project has changed how I parent. I'm 597 00:34:18,516 --> 00:34:23,636 Speaker 2: much more aware of how, even if I'm taking risks, 598 00:34:23,756 --> 00:34:27,116 Speaker 2: even if I'm trusting people, my default is to stop 599 00:34:27,156 --> 00:34:29,996 Speaker 2: my kids from taking any risks and to protect them 600 00:34:30,076 --> 00:34:33,876 Speaker 2: from all sorts of harm, and especially from harmful people. 601 00:34:34,316 --> 00:34:37,236 Speaker 2: I stand by that instinct one thousand percent, but I 602 00:34:37,236 --> 00:34:41,196 Speaker 2: think oftentimes as a parent, my default has been protection 603 00:34:41,436 --> 00:34:46,556 Speaker 2: over freedom, protection over exploration, and protection over learning, and 604 00:34:46,596 --> 00:34:49,716 Speaker 2: so I've been trying to balance that. And so one 605 00:34:49,756 --> 00:34:53,036 Speaker 2: of our daughters is eight years old, and we live 606 00:34:53,316 --> 00:34:56,196 Speaker 2: in the middle of a big city here in San Francisco, 607 00:34:56,716 --> 00:35:00,236 Speaker 2: and she really wants to be able to go buy 608 00:35:00,276 --> 00:35:02,636 Speaker 2: something on her own, right. She wants to be able 609 00:35:02,676 --> 00:35:05,316 Speaker 2: to go a couple of blocks and pick something up. 610 00:35:05,876 --> 00:35:09,316 Speaker 2: And we've gone back and forth on this for for 611 00:35:09,356 --> 00:35:12,236 Speaker 2: a year now, and I won't say that she's done 612 00:35:12,236 --> 00:35:14,276 Speaker 2: it yet, but we're on the cusp of doing it. 613 00:35:14,476 --> 00:35:17,436 Speaker 2: I got her some walkie talkies so that she can 614 00:35:17,476 --> 00:35:19,716 Speaker 2: be in contact if she needs us. But you know, 615 00:35:19,756 --> 00:35:22,516 Speaker 2: before working on this project, I would have thought, no way, 616 00:35:22,636 --> 00:35:25,356 Speaker 2: I'm letting her go even two blocks. You know, there's 617 00:35:25,436 --> 00:35:27,876 Speaker 2: just too many people out there who could try to 618 00:35:27,916 --> 00:35:30,916 Speaker 2: harm her. And of course, I want, above and beyond 619 00:35:30,956 --> 00:35:33,156 Speaker 2: anything in the world for my daughter to be safe. 620 00:35:33,916 --> 00:35:36,636 Speaker 2: But I also think now that her going a block 621 00:35:36,716 --> 00:35:39,316 Speaker 2: or two is actually a pretty safe thing to do. 622 00:35:39,436 --> 00:35:42,676 Speaker 2: Is something that children have done for generations, and that 623 00:35:43,236 --> 00:35:46,636 Speaker 2: keeping her from doing that isn't actually keeping her safe. 624 00:35:46,676 --> 00:35:49,956 Speaker 2: It's in fact keeping her from learning about the world 625 00:35:49,956 --> 00:35:51,076 Speaker 2: and how to interact with it. 626 00:35:51,756 --> 00:35:55,716 Speaker 1: Jimille can feel like a huge shift to move from 627 00:35:56,036 --> 00:36:00,476 Speaker 1: cynicisms to hopeful skepticism, especially during the time we live in. 628 00:36:00,556 --> 00:36:02,476 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm thinking about areas of life that I'm 629 00:36:02,516 --> 00:36:04,836 Speaker 1: very cynical about, and it seems like a herculean effort 630 00:36:04,876 --> 00:36:06,996 Speaker 1: to do that, and so I do wonder you can 631 00:36:07,076 --> 00:36:08,156 Speaker 1: talk just a bit about that. 632 00:36:09,276 --> 00:36:11,676 Speaker 2: This is a process of small steps, right, I mean, 633 00:36:11,796 --> 00:36:16,556 Speaker 2: nobody changes fundamentally how they view the world overnight, really 634 00:36:16,676 --> 00:36:21,516 Speaker 2: change fundamental deep change is a process of building new habits, 635 00:36:21,916 --> 00:36:26,236 Speaker 2: little things that we do slightly differently each day. Another 636 00:36:26,236 --> 00:36:30,436 Speaker 2: thing that I'll say is that cynicism is really most 637 00:36:30,516 --> 00:36:34,716 Speaker 2: powerful in the abstract. If you ask people what are 638 00:36:34,876 --> 00:36:38,596 Speaker 2: people like, they're pretty gloomy. But if you ask them 639 00:36:38,876 --> 00:36:41,156 Speaker 2: what are the people in your life like? And I'm 640 00:36:41,196 --> 00:36:43,516 Speaker 2: not saying your friends and family, but the strangers you 641 00:36:43,556 --> 00:36:48,076 Speaker 2: interact with, your grosser, your neighbor, the person you sit 642 00:36:48,156 --> 00:36:49,196 Speaker 2: next to on the bus. 643 00:36:49,476 --> 00:36:50,476 Speaker 3: If you ask people. 644 00:36:50,276 --> 00:36:54,716 Speaker 2: About their actual communities, they're much more bullish. They think 645 00:36:54,756 --> 00:36:57,956 Speaker 2: that those people are very trustworthy, are kind, They think 646 00:36:57,956 --> 00:37:01,876 Speaker 2: that those communities are generally pretty good. And so I 647 00:37:01,876 --> 00:37:06,836 Speaker 2: think it's important to remember that hope oftentimes isn't out 648 00:37:06,876 --> 00:37:11,676 Speaker 2: there in the ether, It's right here all around us, 649 00:37:11,796 --> 00:37:13,276 Speaker 2: in the communities that we live in. 650 00:37:35,156 --> 00:37:37,676 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you liked this 651 00:37:37,756 --> 00:37:41,036 Speaker 1: episode and want to hear more about Jamille's research, we 652 00:37:41,156 --> 00:37:44,436 Speaker 1: recorded another episode with him about how to cultivate different 653 00:37:44,516 --> 00:37:47,716 Speaker 1: kinds of empathy and reduce burnout. You can find a 654 00:37:47,756 --> 00:37:50,156 Speaker 1: link to it in the show notes. We'll be back 655 00:37:50,196 --> 00:37:53,076 Speaker 1: soon with a new episode of A Slight Change of Plans. 656 00:37:53,476 --> 00:38:06,636 Speaker 1: I'll see you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, 657 00:38:06,716 --> 00:38:10,196 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change 658 00:38:10,276 --> 00:38:14,356 Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate 659 00:38:14,396 --> 00:38:18,956 Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Luvin, and 660 00:38:19,036 --> 00:38:23,316 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful 661 00:38:23,356 --> 00:38:26,676 Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A 662 00:38:26,716 --> 00:38:29,916 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries. 663 00:38:30,036 --> 00:38:32,996 Speaker 1: So big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 664 00:38:33,196 --> 00:38:36,316 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a 665 00:38:36,356 --> 00:38:39,596 Speaker 1: slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. 666 00:38:39,836 --> 00:38:40,636 Speaker 1: See you next week.