1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: And I'm doctor add In the Rukar, a physician and 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: medical correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: mental health, and burnout. We're here to peel back to 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: layers around why it's so easy for society to guard 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: men's time as if it's diamonds and to treat women's 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: time as if it's infinite like sands. And whether you 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: are partnered with or without children, or in a career 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: where you want more boundaries, this is the place for 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: you for all family structures. We're here to take a 13 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: time out to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:01:00,959 Speaker 1: our time. Good afternoon in adity, So good to see you, 15 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: So great to be with you, Eve, as always, so 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: today we're really digging into ten years of fair Play research, 17 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: coupled with your lends around care care is really imported 18 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: in this country, but why does it fallen women? So 19 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: why was I the statistic the two thirds or more 20 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,919 Speaker 1: of what it takes to run a home and family. 21 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: Why was it falling on me? What I never told 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,839 Speaker 1: you that I do write about was how I start 23 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: to think about this beyond myself, How I start to 24 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: look at this. As my favorite sociologisty Right Mills would 25 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: say private lives or public issues. So I definitely wasn't 26 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: a gender studies major in college. I had really never 27 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: heard of these terms mental load, second shift, emotional labor, 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: invisible work. But after that Blueberries breakdown, I went on 29 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: a breast cancer march with nine of my closest friends 30 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: and adity, most of them are married to men, They're 31 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: in heterosist gender partnerships. They are powerhouse women. One woman 32 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: with me was the CEO of a major nonprofit. We 33 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: had the head of stroking trauma at a major hospital, 34 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: oscar winning producer, and on and on, and we were 35 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: honoring a friend who was recently diagnosed with breast cancer. 36 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: So we got up that morning made signs together that 37 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: said courage, strength, and power. Not just a women's problem. 38 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: It was this true girlfriend's collective experience of power. And 39 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: then noon came and like the fairy tale Cinderella, we 40 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: all turned into pumpkins. And it was not from a spell. 41 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: It was from our partners and the text and phone 42 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: calls that were inundating us starting at noon. The first 43 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: one that came in was when are you coming home 44 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: from the parade? Another one was where did you leave 45 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: Hudson soccer bag? Where's the birthday party? What's the address? 46 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: And and did you leave me a gift? My favorite 47 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: adity was my friend Kate's husband who texted her as 48 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: we looked over her shoulder, do the kids need to 49 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: eat lunch? And you know what was so hard for me? 50 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: It wasn't like we all decided to reverse the spell 51 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: and turned back into our version of a fairy tale 52 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: by turning off our phones. Every single woman looked at 53 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: me and said, I'm so happy you made us downtown 54 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: lunch reservation. But we left our partners with too much 55 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: to do, and they left me there. But before they 56 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: started to disperse, I asked for an act of resistance, 57 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: and that was asking these women to help me count 58 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: up how many phone calls and text we had received. 59 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: We had thirty phone calls and forty six texts for 60 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: ten women over thirty minutes. And that was the day 61 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: where I said I'm going to understand this issue and 62 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: that's really where I stumbled upon Arlene Kaplan Daniels article 63 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: think about Same Ship, different decade about invisible work. And 64 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: invisible work was such an interesting term to me because duh, 65 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: you could just make it visible. And so I opened 66 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: up Excel and I spent nine months with women like 67 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: you and the women at the Breast Cancer March. And 68 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: then this was a time when we didn't have social 69 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: media the way we do today, so I just called 70 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: up women in different communities and it was the first 71 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: time a d D again because I didn't have a 72 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: you to follow. I didn't have these beautiful social media accounts. 73 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: I had myself and an isolation and loneliness problem. And 74 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: then over nine months, I met a community of women 75 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: who helped me populate what I ultimately called my Excel spreadsheet, 76 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: the should I do spreadsheet, and it became tabs and 77 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: two thousand idem of invisible work with women I didn't 78 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: even know, saying, oh my god, thank you for putting 79 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: in taking the kids to the dentists and making school lunches. 80 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: That's ten minutes. But I don't see sunscreen. Where is 81 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: the application of sunscreen? And I would say, well, I 82 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: just got a scroll to tab seventy two you will 83 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: see sunscreen is there. And then they would respond, well, yeah, 84 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: there's it says two minutes for the application, but what 85 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: about the thirty minutes for the chase. I was like, 86 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: oh my god, yeah, the thirty minutes for the chase. 87 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: And it just kept on growing and growing, until finally 88 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: I thought my solution was sending this giant list to 89 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: Seth with all of my communication skills that we're going 90 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: to talk about in a later episode, and that's extremely facetious. 91 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: It was just the nineteen million megabyte spreadsheet with the 92 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: subject line can't wait to discuss m HM. And what 93 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: I got from Seth was predictable. It wasn't even words. 94 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: It was the earliest version of a monkey emoji that's 95 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: covering its eyes and in my home. And what I 96 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,239 Speaker 1: realized about that list when I said it to Seth 97 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: and it landed sort of like a dud, was that 98 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: list alone don't work. And we've been making lists for 99 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: literally a century since we've been trying to enter the 100 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: male dominated workforce. And the other thing I realized about 101 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: that day was that this woman had called me from 102 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: the Jewish Federation of Arizona and left me a message 103 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: that said, Hey, Eve, I don't know you, but I 104 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: got your text message from a friend. I want to 105 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: let you know that after receiving your spreadsheet, thank you 106 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: so much for making it, I'm not going to stay 107 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: in my marriage anymore. WHOA. And that got me thinking 108 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: about they do no harm of exposing a problem without 109 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: a solution. And so that was the time in my 110 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: life where I could resign myself to continue to do 111 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: it all and continue to lose myself in the process, 112 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: or I could get my ass in gear and become 113 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: my own clients. And so I asked a question that 114 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: I want us to explore today, which became the basis 115 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: of the fair play system, and that is, what if 116 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: we started to treat our homes as our most important organizations. 117 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: And one man said to me when I asked him 118 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: that question, because it was a light bulb moment for me, said, Oh, 119 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: you mean like the opposite of my home where we 120 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: wait to decide who's taking the dog out right when 121 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: it's about to take a piss on the rug. And 122 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: I said, exactly that that thing, but the opposite. And 123 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: from that day on I started to understand that even 124 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: my aunt Marian's ma Gen group has more clearly defined expectations. 125 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: In the home, you don't bring snack twice to that group, 126 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: you're out. Whereas the home, we are literally every single 127 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: day doing the most efficient thing we could do, which 128 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: is make the same decisions over and over again, which 129 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: is the opposite of what we're going to talk about today, 130 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: which is a system. And the last thing I want 131 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: to say was that the second most important question I 132 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: we're asked in ten years is the basis of what 133 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about today, and that is how 134 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: did mustard get in your refrigerator? That question ended up 135 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: being the basis of the fair play system because what 136 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: I got to see as somebody who does organizational management 137 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: for a living, as you know, I work for families 138 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: that look like the HBO show Succession, And so what 139 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: that question, how does mustard get in your refrigerator? Do? 140 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: For me? Was a broken answer that I kept hearing 141 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: with the should I do spreadsheet? When I asked people 142 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: in partnerships who gets the groceries we both do, who 143 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: watches the kids we both do? Who packs and unpacks 144 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: the backpack we both do? And I kept thinking, this 145 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: is not accurate because if we both did it, then 146 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 1: why is there so much resentment? Why is this issue 147 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: so triggering? So I had to ask, how did mustar 148 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: get in the refrigerator? To get away from this? Both 149 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: track up to understand what was really happening in people's homes. 150 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: And we'll center the heterocyst gender partnership here because that's 151 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: where a lot of these norms come from. I would 152 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: hear in seventeen countries, including the Nordic countries. Oh yes, 153 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: I'm the mom, I'm the woman, and I notice my 154 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: second son, Johnny needs yellow mustard on his protein otherwise 155 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: he chokes. And that is conception. That is something we 156 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: know well from organizational management. We get paid big bucks 157 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: for conception, for coming up with new ideas and noticing 158 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: in the workplace. And then that mom would say to me, 159 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: I'm responsible for monitoring the mustard for when it it's 160 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: running low. And I'm also getting stakeholder by in from 161 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: my family for what they need on that list. And 162 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: that's also something we get paid the big bucks for, 163 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: and that's planning. And then I would hear I send 164 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: my partners to the store to pick up the yellow mustard, 165 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: and you know he brings home spicy dijon eve every 166 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: fucking time, and you want me to trust him with 167 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: my living will. We can't even bring home the right 168 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: type of mustard. And that's when I realized that as 169 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: a mediator, we often say the presenting problem is not 170 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: the real problem. Similar to medicine, the real problem wasn't 171 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: about mustard. It was about accountability and trust, and the 172 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 1: only way to bring back accountability and trust in the 173 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: workplace and the home. From fifty years of organizational scholarship 174 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: that I know from ten years of working with families, 175 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: as you come to the table with an ownership mindset, 176 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: you hold together the conception, planning, and execution of a 177 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: task that is life changing. That is the life changing 178 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: magic of mustard. You have demystified something that has plagued 179 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: us for generations and generations. It's universal, like you have 180 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: that spreadsheet. Because we're all going through this, and we've 181 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: talked about it in other episodes. We're having this communal 182 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: isolating experience. We're doing so much work, we feel this 183 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: burden and we feel all alone. And yet if you 184 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: were to knock on your neighbor's door, everyone is going 185 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 1: through the same experience. There is a way to take 186 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: agency in your own life while living in polluted air. Right, 187 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: we know our air is polluted. We know there's a 188 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: lot of systemic reasons, especially in America, that things are 189 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: are harder for women, and especially for mothers without a 190 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: social safety net, and especially for single mothers like my 191 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: mother or the millions of others you know out there 192 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: that are in different types of family structures. But the 193 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: beauty about understanding that the air is polluted is recognizing 194 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: that we still have to breathe. Right, we can't stop breathing. 195 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: We don't want to suffocate and die. That is a 196 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: radical act to say we can do things differently. You know, 197 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: when I first came up with the idea of a system, 198 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: it was confusing to people. They didn't understand what a 199 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: system is. And when I said, who cares what the 200 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: system is as long as you know what the outcome 201 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: is of that system, which is accountability and trust. Explicitly 202 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: define expectation ends where you know your role in your home, 203 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: where there's fairness and transparency, that's a thriving organization. And 204 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: in that type of organization, you know how you're making 205 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: that decision. Before you make that decision so that you're 206 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: not like that man who's deciding who's taking the dog 207 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: out right when it's about to take a piss on 208 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: the rug. That, to me is the reason why we 209 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: are burning out. And the other great thing about a 210 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: system is that it's the opposite of assumptions. So what 211 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: was happening even in gay families that I would talk to, 212 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: was this same type of assumptions, not gendered assumptions, right, 213 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: because it's you say, it's two men raising kids. But 214 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: what happened is that other assumptions would sneak in. Many 215 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 1: gay families would tell me that the school would say, well, 216 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: who's the mom is sort of in a joking way, 217 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: trying to put these heterocis gender norms onto other family structures, 218 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: or even in the own family saying well, we decided 219 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: the person who makes more automatically did less, and so 220 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: we end up in these dentful assumptions, which is the 221 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: opposite of where fair play can take you. System sounds 222 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: very high tech, and the reason, as you've mentioned in 223 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: the many stories you've told about how people feel that 224 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: like factor when they hear the word system for their 225 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: home is because the home is supposed to feel like 226 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: a respite, like a high touch environment, right, there's no 227 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: room for that high tech language in a high touch environment. 228 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 1: What I love about fair play and about systems in general, 229 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: it distills down the home into very concrete, manageable parts. 230 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: The other thing that systems do is that it removes 231 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: human error. And that's why we have all of these 232 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: checks and balances in the medical world with systems is 233 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: because then we don't rely on the individual So when 234 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: the individuals feeling tired. You know when I think about doctors, right, like, 235 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: we're tired, we're on call, we haven't slept. There's all 236 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: of these other human factors. But when we have systems 237 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: in place, we can override a lot of those as 238 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: you call it, low cognition, high emotion states and make 239 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: good decisions. It's a way to automate something that is 240 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: very complicated, can get really messy. It removes the human error. Yes, 241 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: So as we talk about fair play, there's kind of 242 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: three main concepts, right, So we have the CPE ownership mindset, 243 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: the minimum standard of care, and the daily grind. So Eve, 244 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: can you walk us through all of those concepts. So 245 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: CPE the ownership mindset, as we set up was the 246 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: opposite of the mustard story. If you actually want to 247 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: see what we call the CPE checklist, you can go 248 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: to fair play life dot com. We actually have free 249 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: resources there for you, but I'll explain it briefly. C 250 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: p E as an ownership mindset is the opposite of 251 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: a both trap. It's the opposite of understanding who's doing water, 252 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: who will make a decision because you both are stuck 253 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: and thinking you both do it. Let's talk about extracurricular sports, 254 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: because that was the first one that Seth and I 255 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: started with. Seth honestly thought he was owning he was 256 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: in charge of extracricular sports a d d. Because he 257 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: would show up to the Little League field with my 258 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: kids when they were young, with a water bottle that 259 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: I packed for him and in sunscreen that I put 260 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: on for my kids. When Seth finally understood that the 261 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: conception was serving my kids friends to see what sports 262 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: they wanted to play. Even in the first place, that's 263 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: all involved in a conception. The planning is person car 264 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: pool text chain, plus the ordering of the equipment or 265 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: borrowing the equipment, to signing up to the portal that 266 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: never seems to work and crashes all the time to 267 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: zero saying five copies of your kids birth certificate, and 268 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: on and on. And when Seth understood that that that 269 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: whole thing, from the serving to the planning two the 270 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: actually showing up on the field, the execution was the 271 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: ownership mindset that changed our lives. You got me six 272 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: hours of my week back, So that's CPE. The other 273 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: two concepts that we really need to understand are the 274 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: minimum standard of care and the daily grinds. As you said, 275 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: daily grinds are there's thirty of them in the deck 276 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: of a hundred fair play cards and what they signify 277 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: our tasks that are normally done by women. Professor Darby 278 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: Sacks Be, a friend of mine, forced me to double 279 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: weight the cards to say not all cards are created 280 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: equal dishes. Is not the same as lawn and plants. 281 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: And once I understood that, her research shows that men 282 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: often take tasks that could be done at their own 283 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: leisure time, whether that's mowing the lawn or paying bills. 284 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: Women often do the tasks that are the repetitive tasks 285 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: that interrupt their time, that chop it up like time confetti. 286 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: Once you realize that the daily grind cards are the 287 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: ones we should focus on, the ones we should go 288 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: to first, the ones we should understand that they're not 289 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: a gendered responsibility. The closer we get to that, the better. 290 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: Those are the cards like dishes and card transportation and 291 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: what I like to call daily disruptions where if a 292 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: kid is sick, who is the one picking up that 293 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 1: kid from school and interrupting their day. Now, finally, let's 294 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: go to the meat of the resistance. The meat of 295 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: the resistance to fair play is the minimum standard of care, 296 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: This idea that my partner and I will never agree 297 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: on what's important, or as one man said to me, 298 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: my wife does all these unnecessary things. But the beauty 299 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: of fair play is it's not a list, even though 300 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: you can use it that way, and I hope nobody will. 301 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: The beauty of fair plays when you onboard into a system, 302 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: you build your deck together, you decide it's a collective 303 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: unit what matters to you, which is often missing in 304 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: this discussion. And we're going to do an exercise to 305 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: really unpack the minimum standard of care when we do 306 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: our time out today. So it's really cool today, Eve, 307 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: is that we're meeting someone who's putting all of these 308 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: larger concepts into practice in their daily lives. Can you 309 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit more about Fergil King. I 310 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: met Fergil while I was giving a key note, and 311 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: he actually wrote to me. He wrote me a letter 312 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: about how the fair play systems were changing his life, 313 00:18:49,440 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: and we're getting to meet him after the break m 314 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have Furgal here with us today. 315 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: He sent me a letter after going through a really 316 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: difficult time with his partner Laren and their two kids. Hi, 317 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: furgo so, Furgal. I loved the letter you shared with 318 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: Eve about your experience, and I would love for you 319 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: to share how you came to this pivotal point and 320 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: what ultimately led you to talk to us today. So 321 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: I'm in a common law relationship. We're not actually married. 322 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: We're engaged or have been for a long time. We 323 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: have two toddlers, two girls, age one and three. They're 324 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: twenty months apart, and I typically work in a office 325 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: environment Monday to Friday nine while my wife Laren is 326 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: at home with the kids most of the time, and 327 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 1: so last summer out of probably sheer frustration on her 328 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: part with me or how the household is managed or not, 329 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: and how a lot of the burden typically falls on 330 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: her because she's at home most of the time. And 331 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: learn started googling some ideas for a system that would 332 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: work for the home, and it's a system that's more 333 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: more fair and more equitable. And that's when she really 334 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: came across the fair Play and the book. So we 335 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 1: decided to take a look at it. We bought the audiobook, 336 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: we bought the cards, and we fully intended and did 337 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: put a new system into place. And so up until 338 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: this point, I considered myself and still do to be 339 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: this kind of modern day dad, pretty progressive views. I 340 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: carried my own weight around, help out a lot. I 341 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: was doing the jobs that were asked of me, and 342 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: often doing a good job of it too. I think 343 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: it was complimented on how good of a job I 344 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: did sometimes and sometimes I would even do these things 345 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: without being asked, so I felt I was like doing 346 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: a great job with these things. But despite these values 347 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: or beliefs that I have, I still would have probably 348 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: carried a number of cultural norms with me that don't 349 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: always necessarily a line up with the values that I have. 350 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: So at the time when Learned first broke out these cards, 351 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: and so this is the thing we're going to do now. 352 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: So I took a look at it. I'd say there 353 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: was probably a lot of resistance for me to begin with. 354 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: I felt like I needed to defend myself and quite 355 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: worried about the increased workload that was probably going to 356 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: be upon me, but you know, I agreed to go 357 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: along with it to keep her happy. There were at 358 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: least two game changer things that I reflected upon nearly 359 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: straightaway upon adopting the new system, like, first of all, 360 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: immediately allowed to learn to switch off from certain tasks 361 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: as she knew that I was now responsible for them, 362 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: and not just responsible for doing the tasks, but as 363 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: Eve has in her book, like the responsible for the 364 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: conception and the planning and the execution of them. So 365 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: this idea of CPE was very new to me, and 366 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: it became like a household name in our place for 367 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: a while, like we should often say, like you need 368 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: to CEP it, just go and c p e it. 369 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: And of course at the start I didn't know what 370 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: this was, but I very quickly learned that it's doing 371 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: a job is not just the execution but also the 372 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: conception and the planning of it. And so the second 373 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: thing is that gave me much greater insight into the 374 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: work that typically goes on behind the scenes, the invisible 375 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: work as Eves called it. And it's really about the 376 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: mental load and who's carrying that and what does a 377 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: fair system look like. So, for example, it's not just 378 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 1: about getting a gold star to take the kids to 379 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: the dentist, but it's about recognizing that, hey, our kids 380 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: aret of age now that we need to think about 381 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: getting them to a dentists, so doing the research, whereas 382 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: a dentist, who's going to book an appointment, who's going 383 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: to bring them? So it's all of those things. So 384 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: it's quite a bit of an eye opener in that regard. 385 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: So overall, I'd say there was a pretty extensive rebalance 386 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: of the household chores and responsibilities in our home in 387 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: a way that was definitely more fair and more equitable. 388 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: So but then learn stuffered a concussion and so this 389 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: was another game changer. So she was moving some things 390 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 1: around in our storage room that day she somehow managed 391 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: to knock acount of paint on her head. And I 392 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 1: still refer to this incident as paint gate joke that 393 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: it's a conspiracy for her to keep her go on. 394 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: But like joking aside, it was a really big moment 395 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: and it's a really incapacitated her for quite some time. 396 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: So the first few days she lay in the dark 397 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: room by herself. She couldn't handle any stimuli. She was 398 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: very sensitive to screens including phones and laptops and lights 399 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: and movement and noise and couldn't read it. It hurt 400 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: her brain. She was dizzy, she was nauseous, she had 401 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: headaches forgetfulness. So I mentioned I have two toddlers at 402 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: home as well, so trying to explain to them what 403 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: was going on was a challenge in upon itself as well. 404 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: And our eldest daughter, Olivia, who's three, had also just 405 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: started preschool, so just lots of big changes, one on 406 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,959 Speaker 1: top of the other. Compounding it kind of forced me 407 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: to have to take a leave of absence from work 408 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: for up to two months. And it was really during 409 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: that period that I like stepped in fully into the 410 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: role of a primary caregiver. And so we adopted this 411 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: new system and things were better, and they definitely were 412 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: i'd say in the past preconcussion. I was sympathetic to 413 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: her situation, but It wasn't until I really stepped into 414 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: this role of primary caregiver that I had a really 415 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: true understanding of what she had been up against for 416 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: over three years, and I was able to get a 417 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: sense of like what it really means by carrying the 418 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 1: mental burden on a daily basis, and also the loneliness 419 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: that comes with it too, Like there's a less adult 420 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: conversation and stimulation, a loss of who you are as 421 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: a person, and much less meaning and purpose to life. 422 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: I was off work doing this for a couple of months, 423 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: she was doing for three years, and it really wasn't 424 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: until then that I got a true sense of what 425 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: she'd been up against. This is where that I'm crying again. 426 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: How is it still triggering to me for ago after 427 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: all these years, when I've done this for ten years, 428 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: I still feel like really emotional hearing what you're saying. Well, 429 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: there's PC and a C. It sounds like we have 430 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: our preconcuccussion and after concussion. Do you think Lauren felt 431 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: the difference after this period? Did your conversations in your 432 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: communication did it feel different to you after you went 433 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: through this leave of absence? Yeah, So I've been back 434 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: at work for about a month and a half now, 435 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: and I'd say there's still a couple of things going on. 436 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: She's still not fully recovered, but she's getting back to it, 437 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,479 Speaker 1: and I think the silver lining of the concussion has 438 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: been that she's recognized that, actually, I need to value 439 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: my own space a lot more, of my own time 440 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: a lot more, in a way that she hadn't done before, 441 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: and in a way that I probably did. So there's 442 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: still some concern from her that returning to her state 443 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: of preconcussion was a state of really deep burnout. And 444 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: she did reflect a few times that when she was 445 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: getting better, she was saying she's taking all more things, 446 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: and by virtue, I was taking on less of them 447 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: as a result of that. So she did not want 448 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: to go back to this state of preconcussion. So we've 449 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: been trying to reframe it a bit more. This is 450 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: an opportunity to talk about what the new normal wants 451 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: to look like, what we want the new normal to 452 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: look like for her and for us. So we're still 453 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: getting there. I think it was we only broke out 454 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: the cards again about a week ago, so we've been 455 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: redivvying them up basically, and we preconcussion again, we did 456 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: this thing. That how we managed it was we would 457 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: have a weekly meeting just half hour along in the evening, 458 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: just talking about what's what kind of went well the 459 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: past week, what's on our plate over the next week. 460 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: Are we going to manage these things? So we just 461 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: started that again. And you know, there's a bigger picture 462 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: and doing these things makes us a better couple. It's 463 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,239 Speaker 1: not just about the impact on me. If you can 464 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: do something to enable a happier relationship, better family dynamic, 465 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: than that's the bigger benefit from it all. I suppose 466 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: here here for a go for president. Thank you for 467 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: being vulnerable and sharing your story with us today. I 468 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: don't know, thank you so much for having me on. 469 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: I really appreciated. Hi, it's me Eve. Are you a therapist, 470 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: counselor coach or nutritionists that has thought about introducing the 471 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: fair Play System directly to your clients? Well, now you 472 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: can come and roll in the fair Play Method, a 473 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: new online program that provides you with hands on training, 474 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: a ton of valuable resource, and a community of certified professionals. 475 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: We are all part of a greater cultural movement for 476 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 1: systemic change. Learn more about how you can help your 477 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: clients shift the domestic workload in their own homes towards 478 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: more equity, more fairness, and greater connectivity. Visit fair play 479 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: method dot com. So eve this week's time out. Since 480 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: we've heard from Fergal all of the practical implications and 481 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: how to really bring this into our lives, I'd love 482 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: for us to pick a card, talk about it, and 483 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: really bring this into our lives and bring it home. 484 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: So the card I picked for you was Garbage. Oh 485 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: my god, I love this so much. This is my 486 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: favorite card. Carbage was an interesting card because it was 487 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: a minimum standard of care that Seth and I were 488 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: really budding heads on. So to make that distinction the 489 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: concept planning and execution the ownership mindset, Seth understood. He 490 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: understood the cpe of garbage. He understood that to own garbage, 491 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: and in California it's more complicated. We have to get 492 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: these bins out onto the road. He understood that a 493 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: garbage liner goes back in, goes back in the garbage can. 494 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: So he understood the steps of the conception thinking about garbage. 495 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: Planning of when those bins will go out, execution of 496 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: putting the liner back in and getting those bins out 497 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: and back. What we were struggling with was I was 498 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: still his garbage shadow, a D D. And so what 499 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: would happened was, even though Seth took the card, and 500 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: this was very early in the practice, I still didn't 501 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: trust he was going to do it. Back to the 502 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: accountability and trust why CP is not enough because we 503 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: had not had a conversation other than that you got 504 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: the CP of this have fun. But because of all 505 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: of our old patterns, I was not trusting him. So 506 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: I was doing as I was his garbage shadow. Seth 507 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: is very tall, so I'd go into the kitchen, I'd see, 508 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: you know, the garbage can almost getting full. So I'd 509 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: say to myself, I'll just open the door into the sink, 510 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: because if Seth walks over there, he'll hit his knee 511 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: on the open door and he'll fall. When he's on 512 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: the ground scrambling as his knee hurts, he'll see the 513 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: garbage liners in there and then replace it, you know. 514 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: Or in kinder days, I just pull out a liner 515 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: and just like throw it on there, or un kinder days, 516 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: I would put a milk carton on the floor next 517 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: to the garbage so that he would see that it 518 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: was overflowing. CPE alone was not working. It was feeling 519 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: like a list. So then what I realized is that 520 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: actually having deeper conversations about the decisions we make the 521 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: things we value is actually really important. And so I 522 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: sat set down when emotion was low and cognition was high. 523 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: We probably had alcohol or more likely some ice cream, 524 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: and I said to him, look, I'm gonna tell you 525 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: a story that I realized you probably don't know about me. 526 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: You know my mother, you know my my disabled brother. 527 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: You know in concept, I grew up as a latch 528 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: key kid. But what I don't often talk to you about, Seth, 529 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: is what it felt like to get my brother water, 530 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: to put my brother to bed when I was still 531 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: a kid, and have to turn on the lights and 532 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: watch cockroaches and water bugs scatter. I closed my eyes 533 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: for ten seconds, let them scatter before I go get 534 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: the water and bring it to the other room. Because 535 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: we didn't have a garbage can growing up. We had 536 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: a garbage bag on a knob and that was it, 537 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: and it would spill out over the floor and the 538 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: floor was always sticky, and that was how I grew up. 539 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: And so when I see a banana peal sticking out 540 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: of the garbage. I'm transported to being a latch key kid. 541 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: It brings up abandonment, and it brings up so many 542 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: issues that are bigger than the garbage. This took me 543 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: a while to understand about myself a deity. That's why 544 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: this is a time out to practice understanding our story. 545 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: So we could tell them, which we're to discuss next 546 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: week to others. But Seth was able to say to me, well, 547 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: I don't give a shit about garbage. I had a 548 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: housekeeper growing up. In fact, in my fraternity, I actually 549 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: think I probably slept on Domino's pizza boxes and not pillows, 550 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: So garbage was my friend. So what happens is that 551 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: it do I give up? Do you give up on 552 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: the fair play system? Or just say like we did 553 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: an episode one and the time it takes me to 554 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: tell him her they what to do or remind them, 555 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: I should just do it myself. Should I have taken 556 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: garbage back and say, well, I value it more so 557 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: I'll just do it. No, because then it would lead 558 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: exactly back to the place where I was crying on 559 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: the side of the road. So what I said to 560 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: Seth firmly was I appreciate you valuing garbage because I 561 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: value garbage even though you don't value garbage. But you 562 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: know that this is something that has to be taken out, 563 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: and you've already said you would do it. So what 564 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: can we agree on so that I am not your 565 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: garbage shadow and that also I'm not being triggered from 566 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,959 Speaker 1: my childhood trauma. And what he said was garbage can 567 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: go out once a day. I will take the garbage 568 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: out once a day. I put it in my calendar 569 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: like a freaking work appointment, as long as you never 570 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: mentioned garbage ever again. And that was the first time 571 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: in my life where like the Red Sea, it was 572 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: a freaking miracle. It parted. It was the first time 573 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: in my life where there was a light bulb, the 574 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: system was working. We really, very rarely had to talk 575 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: about garbage over again. It was happening because I had 576 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: the expectation and Seth had the trust. And that is 577 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: the beauty of a minimum standard of care investing in 578 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: these conversations. So for this week's time out, we are 579 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: going to use Eve's example of garbage, and there are 580 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: twelve what Eve calls that dirty, doesn't These are like 581 00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: the twelve heated hot button cards, tidying up groceries, dishes, meals, cleaning, garbage, 582 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: discipline and screen time, kids, friendships, homeschool projects and supplies 583 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: watching your kids or your pets, laundry and home supplies. 584 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: Check out the list on fairplay life dot com. We're 585 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: gonna pick one of those twelve and use the minimum 586 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: standard of care that Eve has described to talk through 587 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: how we're going to tackle one of these twelve. And 588 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: what I love about this is it's really about you. 589 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: Before we talked to any partners, anybody. It could be 590 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: a roommate, it could be your parents. It's about understanding 591 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: you're a minimum standard of care and starting to think 592 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: about yourself. Talk how you would articulate it, what you 593 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: remember about this task growing up. And next week we're 594 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: actually going to start prepping for the invitation for how 595 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: to invite someone to stay down to actually discuss these issues. 596 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,479 Speaker 1: We're moving from the internal work to more external facing 597 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: work and it's going to be really impactful. The next 598 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 1: episode is one of my favorite because communication will always 599 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: be the hardest and the most important practice at least 600 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,479 Speaker 1: of my life. Thank you for listening to Time out 601 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: A production of I Heard Podcasts and Hello Sunshine. I'm 602 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 1: Ev Rodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller fair 603 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: Play and find your Unicorn Space. Follow me on social 604 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: media at ev Rodsky and learn more about our work 605 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: at fair Play Life. And I'm doctor at dd NERUCAR, 606 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: a Harvard position with a specialty and stress resilience, burnout, 607 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: and mental health. Follow me on social media at dr 608 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: A d D The rootcar and find out more about 609 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: my work at doctor d D dot com. That's d 610 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: R A d I t I dot com. Our Hello 611 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 1: Sunshine team is Amanda farrand Aaron Stover and Jennifer Yonker. 612 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: Our I Heart Media team is Ali Perry, Jennifer Bassett, 613 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: and Jessica Krinschitch. We hope you all love taking a 614 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: much needed time out with us today. Listen and subscribe 615 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: to Time Out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 616 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your favorite shows.