1 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature Feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host 2 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: of Mini Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology, 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: and today on the show it's a listener questions episode. 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: I take your questions about animals, about animal behavior, about 5 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 1: evolutionary biology, and sometimes about people, and I try to 6 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: answer them to the best of my ability. 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 2: So let's get right into it. Here's the first listener question. 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: Oh by the way, if you have one that you're 9 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: dying to ask me and you don't know how to 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: do it, well, it's easy. You write to me at 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: Creature featurepot at gmail dot com and I do my 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: best to answer all the questions I get either by 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 2: email or right here on the show. So here is 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: the first question. Hi, Katie, longtime listener. I just came 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: across this quote cute video. My first thoughts are that 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,319 Speaker 2: something is wrong with the shark. Can you tell by 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: watching if this is normal or not? Thank you Danny J. 18 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: So the video that Danny sent me is a shark 19 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: approaching a boat with a diving cage, and instead of 20 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: eating everyone on board, it backstrokes and swims with its 21 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 2: belly up. It kind of swims back, makes a half 22 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: hearted attempt at biting part of the boat, and then 23 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: swims away. So this looks like a great white shark 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 2: to me in the video, it is unusual behavior actually, 25 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: because sharks do not typically swim on their backs. In fact, 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 2: being upside down isn't a great position for the shark 27 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: to be in because this can trigger a state called 28 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 2: tonic immobility. My guess is that the shark got a 29 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: little disoriented by the diving cage that it sort of 30 00:01:54,320 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: bonked into and accidentally swam itself upside down, So that 31 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: would be my guess. I think the shark made a 32 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: bit of a clumsy kind of like meet cute clumsy girl. 33 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: Move here. But I don't think it's like sick or anything. 34 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: But let's talk a little bit about tonic immobility and 35 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: why it happens when sharks are flipped over. So sharks 36 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: and rays experience tonic immobility when they are flipped on 37 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: their backs and held there. It's so effective in some 38 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: species of sharks and rays that researchers can exploit it 39 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 2: to examine sharks or to outfit them with trackers. Sometimes 40 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: it's used instead of anesthesia because it's so effective. So 41 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 2: while the shark is experiencing tonic immobility, the shark's breathing 42 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 2: will slow down and they will be in a kind 43 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: of catatonic state until they are released entered right side up. 44 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 2: Orcas will sometimes use this to attack sharks. Actually, so 45 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: orcas will slam into sharks and when the sharks flip over, 46 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 2: the orcas will kind of try to restrain them and 47 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: either attack the shark or wait for the shark to 48 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: drown before having a shark snack. And orcas will do this, 49 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: especially to great white sharks. I now what we think 50 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 2: of great white sharks as like the apex predators, they 51 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: don't have anything to fear. Well, orcas are kind of 52 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: buttholes and they will definitely attack great white sharks who 53 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: are just vibing. So why how would a great white 54 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: shark drown underwater? It's a fish that doesn't make any sense. Well, 55 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 2: great white sharks are what are called obligate ram ventilators, 56 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: meaning that in order for their gills to process the 57 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: oxygen from seawater, the shark has to be moving to 58 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: maintain the flow of water. So not all sharks are 59 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: obligate raum ventilators. So it's not true that all sharks 60 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: have to keep moving to stay alive. In fact, the 61 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: majority of species of sharks do not. They actually have 62 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: something that they have a buckle pump of pump in 63 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: their cheeks that maintains the flow of water over their 64 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: gills even when not moving. But there are some species 65 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: of sharks that are ram ventilators. They have to move 66 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 2: or at least have some kind of flow of water 67 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: in order for their gills to work, and so great 68 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: white sharks are one of these species. So if they 69 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 2: are held in a state of tonic immobility for too long, 70 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: they'll actually suffocate because they aren't getting that flow of 71 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 2: water over their gills and they are asphyxiating. So another 72 00:04:54,279 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 2: way in which tonic immobility can be induced in is 73 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: by overstimulating the sharks. So sharks have electro receptors in 74 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 2: their snouts. These are called the ampulae of lorenzini. They 75 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 2: are actually very sensitive receptors that can detect tiny electrical 76 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: signals and they can use this to locate prey. These 77 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: are essentially pores in their snout filled with a conductive 78 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: jelly and at the bottom is a cell a electroreceptor 79 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: cell that is sensitive to the flow of electricity, and 80 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: when that stimulates the cell, it releases a signal to 81 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 2: a nerve which goes to the shark's brain, and the 82 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: shark notices the electrical pulse. And because they have rows 83 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: and rows of these pores of these electric receptors, they 84 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: are also able to tell the direction of the electrical signals. 85 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: So that's how they use it to locate locate electrical 86 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: signals underwater. And this is useful because muscle movements send 87 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 2: off electrical little electrical signals, because your muscle movement is 88 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: actually powered by electricity in a way, and so this 89 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 2: is the way that the shark can locate prey in 90 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 2: the water. So, because these are so sensitive, if they 91 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: are over stimulated, like by rubbing the shark's snout, this 92 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: will actually trigger a state of tonic immobility. So you 93 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 2: might have heard before that like bonking a shark on 94 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: the snout immobilizes them. That's somewhat true. I wouldn't like 95 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: put yourself in the position where you have to try that, 96 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 2: but yeah, like rubbing, rubbing the shark snowls getting a 97 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: lot of sort of agitation on the shark's nose cana 98 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: overwhelm that electro receptive system and then cause them to 99 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: kind of go into a sort of dazed catatonic state. 100 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 2: In other species of sharks, such as the zebra shark, 101 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: you can actually apply some pressure to the caudal thin, 102 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: that is, the tail thin by firmly grasping it, which 103 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: has been observed to also induce tonic immobility. So why 104 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: do sharks have this secret power down mode when it 105 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: doesn't seem to benefit in fact, seems to be somewhat 106 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 2: of a liability. Well, there are three basic theories which 107 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: are not mutually exclusive. The first theory is that it 108 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: is a defensive technique to play dead if a predator 109 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: corners them. Obviously, it's not so useful for the great 110 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: white when orcas are smart enough to exploit it. But 111 00:07:54,800 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: it's potentially of vestigial response that benefited earlier evolutiontionary iterations 112 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: of sharks. So not necessarily the great white that doesn't 113 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: really need to fear predation too much, unless unless it 114 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 2: is ironically stunned. But you know, the great white shark 115 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: may have retained this trait. Maybe other species of sharks 116 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 2: that preceded the great white shark. This was useful for 117 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: And remember, with evolution, outdated or bad adaptations don't automatically 118 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: go away unless the selective pressure is strong enough or 119 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 2: more positive mutation arises. So we can have a lot 120 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 2: of evolutionary adaptations that used to be good for us, 121 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: used to be helpful, but are no longer so helpful. 122 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 2: One of the theories of like that jerk that you 123 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: do as you're falling asleep is that it's sort of 124 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: this old trait that we had when we were tree 125 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: dwelling and kind of having like this sense of falling 126 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 2: or alertness when we're trying to fall asleep would actually 127 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: be beneficial. Now it's not so beneficial, but it's not 128 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: because it's not necessarily impacting our survival all that much. 129 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: In terms of yes, it might be hurting some of 130 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: our sleep quality, then the trade is not going away. 131 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 2: Now you might ask, well, for these sharks, the orcas 132 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 2: are killing the sharks, that seems like it's impacting their survival, 133 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 2: And yeah, you are correct. It's just like you need 134 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 2: enough sharks to be killed in this way that it 135 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 2: would be making quite a marked difference in terms of 136 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 2: their survival, and you would also simultaneously need a mutation 137 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 2: in sharks that allowed them to not have this catatonic response, 138 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 2: so either way. So the second theory as to why 139 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: sharks have this tonic immobility response is that it's a 140 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: part of courtship behavior, so the female will relax during mating. 141 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: So when sharks mate, that's one of the rare times 142 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: that the shark might be somewhat upside down. So this 143 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 2: is supported by some evidence that female sharks are more 144 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: affected by tonic immobility. So the ability for the female 145 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 2: shark to, like when she's upside down, to kind of 146 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: like not thrash around and stuff might make matings more successful. 147 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 2: The third theory is that it is to protect the 148 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 2: shark from overwhelming sensory input, basically calming them down if 149 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: their senses are overloaded. This theory basically comes from the 150 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: fact that sharks, when they're overstimulated, like I was talking 151 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: about earlier with their electro receptors, will go into tonic immobility. 152 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: I kind of, I mean, you know, personally, I find 153 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: this the least compelling theory because I'm not sure how 154 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: being sort of soothed is necessarily advantageous. Usually there's some 155 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: like reason, uh for for that tonic immobility that would 156 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 2: improve your survival chances, not not just like oh, like 157 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: they're overwhelmed and then this is a way to like 158 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: protect them from overwhelming sensory input. I'm not I'm not 159 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 2: totally convinced about that, but you know, maybe I'm not 160 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 2: fully understanding it, so it could be true. Yeah, so 161 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 2: that those are the main theories behind why sharks will 162 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: undergo tonic immobility when they are flipped over. And yeah, 163 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 2: I mean it's it's a really interesting behavior. I feel 164 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: like it kind of humanizes sharks a little bit. It's 165 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: like they are also vulnerable. They are little little sea 166 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: puppies that bite you real hard if you if you 167 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: play with the wrong species. Anyways, we're gonna take a 168 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: quick break, and when we get back, we are going 169 00:11:54,320 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 2: to answer another listener question. Next listener question, Hi, Katie, 170 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 2: I've heard that because our primate cousins such as chimpanzees, bonobos, etc. 171 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: Are primarily quadrupedal, they can recognize each other by just 172 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: looking at their butts. Do you think that's just like 173 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 2: how human brains are prime to identify faces, and we 174 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: see faces in clouds trees and other patterns I eat 175 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 2: pair idolia. Perhaps chimpanzees look up at the clouds and 176 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 2: see imaginary butts up there, or look at some patterns 177 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: and tree bark and think, hey, that looks like a 178 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: rear end. The world is full of butts. So this 179 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: is from Luke. I love this question. So the question 180 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: is whether pair idolia for butt centric primates might cause 181 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 2: them to see butts in the clouds. And to answer this, 182 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 2: we have to look into whether the way that primates 183 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: see butts is the same way that that humans see 184 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 2: and recognize faces. So it is true that chimpanzees are 185 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: primed to recognize them friends butts. I want to talk 186 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: about a study that explored this because it's really interesting 187 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 2: and also super funny. It's called getting to the Bottom 188 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: of Face Processing. I gotta love upon in the title 189 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 2: of a study. So not only does the study demonstrate 190 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 2: that chimpanzees are primed to recognized individual chimpanzee butts, but 191 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 2: they also make the case that the ways in which 192 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 2: chimpanzees sea butts is the same way that human beings 193 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 2: see faces. And they even speculate that human faces may 194 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 2: have evolved to look more like primate butts. Before you 195 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: feel insulted, let me go over the whole study. So 196 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 2: researchers used photos of human faces, chimpanzee faces, human butts, 197 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: chimpanzee butts, human hands and feet, and chimpans and feet, 198 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 2: and they tested the recognition of these photos in humans 199 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 2: by asking them to match same photos, so like, the 200 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: same face, the same feet, the same butt, et cetera. 201 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: And then they did the same thing with chimp participants 202 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 2: who were you know, they were raised in a lab 203 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 2: facility in Kyoto where they have sort of a chimp population, 204 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: a captive chimp population, who are used in behavioral studies. 205 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 2: So there's something called the face inversion effect, where it's 206 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 2: much harder and it takes longer for people to recognize 207 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 2: faces that are upside down. This is due to the 208 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 2: mismatch between an upside down face and the schema, the 209 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 2: template of the face that we have in our brains, 210 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 2: which is right side up. So we're actually born with 211 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 2: this schema, this template of sort of the normal proportions 212 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 2: of a human face as we're when we're born, and 213 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: as we age, it develops in complexity. So humans are 214 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: particularly adept at recognizing faces and because of our sensitivity 215 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: to the facial pattern, we are sometimes getting false positives, 216 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 2: so we'll see faces in random patterns such as clouds 217 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: or dirt or tree bark. In some cases the opposite 218 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: is actually true. So there are some people who have 219 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: a very difficult time recognizing faces. It's called prosopagnosia, also 220 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 2: known as face blindness, and it can be very challenging 221 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 2: for people with face blindness to tell people apart and 222 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: actually for them like when there are these Sometimes there 223 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 2: are paintings and stuff where they hide human faces in 224 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: like a natural scene or pattern or like an a 225 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 2: rock face, and people with prosapognosia have a much harder 226 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 2: time seeing hidden faces that are intentionally put in paintings. 227 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 2: So onto chimpanzees. Chimpanzee butts might look unattractive to us, 228 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: but to chimps they are beautiful and they can be 229 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: signs of reproductive readiness. There are sexual swellings and coloration 230 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 2: that indicate a female is fertile and receptive and being 231 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: able to recognize the individuals but is really important because 232 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: this can help them with sort of social situations in matings, 233 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: so they don't have any kind of inbreeding and other 234 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 2: just social applications of knowing who this individual is. So 235 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 2: in this study, the researchers predictably found a significant inversion 236 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: effect for human participants trying to match upside down faces, 237 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: just as what is expected. But they also found this 238 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: inversion effect for chimpanzees but with butts. So this means 239 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 2: that the chimpanzees likely have a developed specific butt template 240 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: that they have in recognizing other chimp butts, far more 241 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 2: than they have in terms of recognizing faces, hands or feet, 242 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 2: just as humans have a very specific template for faces. 243 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 2: But we did really poorly on this test trying to 244 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 2: recognize butts, hands or feet. So the I thought this 245 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 2: was a really inventive study, a really really creative, interesting study. 246 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: The downside, which the author's acknowledge, is that there is 247 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: a pretty small sample size of chimpanzee participants. There were 248 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: only five who were trained to partake in the study, which, 249 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: you know, it's just the limitations of you don't have 250 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 2: access to a huge pool of chimpanzees who can participate 251 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 2: in this study. They're also captive chimpanzee, so their behavior 252 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 2: might be different from wild chimpanzees. Again, that's a really 253 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 2: hard to avoid limitation with studies on chimpanzee behavior. Still, 254 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 2: I think it's a really interesting study, and I think 255 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 2: it's really likely that chimpanzees have a mental butt template 256 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 2: that is similar to our mental face templates that allow 257 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: us to recognize faces. The study authors also speculate that 258 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 2: as humans developed more upright postures, we switched from being 259 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,239 Speaker 2: interested in butts to being interested in faces. I mean, 260 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 2: obviously a lot of people still like butts. I'm not 261 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 2: saying that people don't like butts, but faces became the 262 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: primary target for recognition for sexual attractiveness, being able to 263 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 2: determine someone was like, sexually mature, et cetera. They also 264 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: speculate that faces may have evolved to fit the butt 265 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: schema in terms of sexually attractive things, being similar to 266 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 2: the same kinds of cues and butts that were sexually attractive. 267 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 2: Like I'm not joking plump, red cheeks, red lips, and 268 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:19,239 Speaker 2: symmetry all being attractive in both chimpanzee butts and human faces. So, 269 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 2: I mean, to be clear, this is just these study 270 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 2: authors speculating they don't really have evidence to show that 271 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 2: human faces evolved to look like primate butts, But you 272 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: know if you want to compliment someone by saying they 273 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 2: look like a chimpanzee, but I'm not going to stop you. 274 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: So in answer to the question, I would guess that, yes, 275 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 2: I think chimpanzees probably do see butts in clouds, in 276 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: tree bark, I think they have paridolia. But for chimpanzee butts, 277 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 2: I think it makes a lot of sense that if 278 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 2: they are so primed for the pattern recognition of other 279 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: chimpanzee but that they would see it in random patterns 280 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 2: as well. They probably dream of butts. So you know, 281 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 2: I think that that. I mean, obviously we cannot get 282 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: inside the brain of a chimpanzee. No for sure that 283 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: they see butts in these patterns, but I would guess 284 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 2: that they do. So we're gonna take another quick break, 285 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: and when we get back, we're gonna answer another listener question. 286 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: Next listener question, Hi, Katie, this terrifying wasp landed in 287 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 2: my pool today. I live in Utah. Do you know 288 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 2: what kind of wasp that is and why it needs 289 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: a three inch long stinger? My kids won't go outside anymore. 290 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: By the way, Love the podcast, been listening faithfully since 291 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 2: you began. Thanks Tim f Hi Tim, So, good news, 292 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 2: your kids can play outside without worry, at least when 293 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 2: it comes to this mystery bug. So let's talk about 294 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 2: this mystery bug. So Tim sent me a photo of 295 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 2: what looks like a wasp with a frighteningly long stinger, 296 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 2: like longer than a flu shot needle. Also very thin, 297 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,959 Speaker 2: So overall, this is an extremely menacing looking wasp. It's 298 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 2: you know, fairly big too. It's not not a little 299 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 2: tiny thing it is it looks like if it stung 300 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 2: you, you would be having a real bad time. But here's 301 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: the good news. This is not really a stinger in 302 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 2: the same sense as we're used to on like honey 303 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: bees or wasps that can sting you. This is actually 304 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 2: an ovipositor. So an ovipositor is a long tube that 305 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 2: is used to deposit eggs. So this is indeed a wasp. 306 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 2: The bug that Tim sent me photos of, it's a 307 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: species of ignumind wasps. They are actually parasitoids, meaning they 308 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 2: lay their eggs in or on a host organisms and 309 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 2: the eggs and larvae benefit from the host while also 310 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: harming and eventually killing the host. So, based on the 311 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 2: photos Tim sentmi and the fact he lives in Utah, 312 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: leads me to believe that this is the giant ignumind 313 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 2: wasp also known as Megarisa macarus. It sounds menacing, but 314 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: you actually have nothing to fear unless you happen to 315 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 2: be a pigeon trimix horntail. So a pigeon trimix horntail 316 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: is not a bird at all, but actually another insect. 317 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 2: So horntails are in the order Hymenoptera, so they are 318 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 2: related to bees, wasps, and ants. They look a bit 319 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 2: like a wasp, but without the hourglass figure. Uh. They 320 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 2: use what is basically a drilling tool on their posterior 321 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: end to bore into soft, decaying bark on unhealthy or 322 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 2: dead trees. This drilling tail is fascinating in that it 323 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,479 Speaker 2: has microscopic interlocking valves with teeth that help drill into 324 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 2: the tree bark by basically stepping forward and catching on 325 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 2: the wood as it goes in. So it also uses 326 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 2: a separate tube, the ovipositor, to lay eggs in the wood. 327 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 2: So here's where the giant ignumenoid wasp comes in. She 328 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 2: detects the larvae of the horntail living in the wood, 329 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 2: then she lifts her posterior, and her ovipositor is actually 330 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 2: too long to start drilling in the wood. If you've 331 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 2: ever sort of tried to use a tool from a 332 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 2: weird angle, you'll know what I mean. Uh So, she 333 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: has to coil up the ovipositor like measuring tape in 334 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 2: a special expandable sack on her posterior. So then when 335 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: she's coiled this up, she shoves it into the bark 336 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: and starts boring into the wood, and the ovipositor win 337 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 2: unwinds as she bores. It's kind of like a drain snake. 338 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: At this point, you can probably tell I do a 339 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: lot of home maintenance. So not only does her ovipositor 340 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 2: lay eggs, it does also inject venom, so luckily not 341 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 2: into humans, but into the larva of the horntail. This 342 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: doesn't kill the larva. Even worse, it paralyzes it, so 343 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: the wasp can lay her egg on the now frozen larva, 344 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 2: and when her egg hatches, her larva feeds on the 345 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 2: immobilized horntail larva with no resistance. Since the larva of 346 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: the horntail is still alive, it stays fresher for longer 347 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: as the wasp's offspring slowly eats it, it will eventually 348 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 2: kill it once it has eaten enough of it. So 349 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 2: if you're a horntail, giant, igneumenoid wasps are indeed terrifying 350 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 2: and that long ovipositor is a sign of death. But 351 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: to humans they are completely harmless and they do not 352 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 2: use their stingers on people. So unless you've been cosplaying 353 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 2: as a dead tree for too long and a horntail 354 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 2: has laid its eggs in you, then maybe yes you 355 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 2: should be worried, but otherwise normally know they present no 356 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 2: harm to humans. Interestingly, the stingers that we know from 357 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,959 Speaker 2: bees and wasps who can't sting us are actually evolved 358 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 2: forms of the ovipositor. So the ovipositor apparatus evolved into 359 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 2: the stingers that we know and love maybe don't love 360 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: that are on bees, wasps hornets that can sting us. 361 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 2: So the venom will actually instead of depositing eggs in 362 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 2: this instance, when it be or a wasp or hornet 363 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 2: stings you, it will deposit venom. And so it's an 364 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 2: interesting thing to see this ovipositor in these ignominoid wasps 365 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 2: because it is kind of like you have have like 366 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 2: a stinger action going on because it does paralyze the 367 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 2: larva host with venom, but it also is working as 368 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 2: an overpositor to lay its eggs onto the host. So 369 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: very interesting stuff. Thank you so much for sending me 370 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 2: this picture, and thank you guys so much for your questions. 371 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 2: If you out there have a question a bug you're 372 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 2: terrified of that you found in your backyard, I want 373 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 2: to say hi, send pictures of your pets. You can 374 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 2: write to me at Creature Featurepod at gmail dot com. 375 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 2: I'll be answering the mystery animal sound game question next week, 376 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,239 Speaker 2: so stay tuned for that if you are interested in 377 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: finding out what that mystery animal sound was from last 378 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,479 Speaker 2: week's episode. And also thanks for bearing with me. If 379 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 2: you notice my voice is a little huskier, a little 380 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 2: a little more gravelly, I'm getting over just like a 381 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 2: little cough, a little sore throat, so my voice should 382 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 2: go back to normal unless it's permanently now really husky 383 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 2: and gravelly. Who knows. Anyways, Thanks guys so much for listening, 384 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 2: and thank you to the Space Cossics for their super 385 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: awesome song XO. Lumina. Creature features a production of iHeartRadio. 386 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 2: For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit 387 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or Hey guess what wherever you 388 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: listened to your favorite shows. I'm not your mother. See 389 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 2: you next Wednesday.