1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot Com. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works in my Heart radio, and I love 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: all things tech. So today I want to take a 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: look at proposals for clean coal power plants and what 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: that actually means. And before I jump into that topic, 8 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: I do want to get this out of the way 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: because I want to be as honest and forthright as 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: I possibly can be. I'm in favor of renewable energy sources. 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: I'm also in favor of pursuing research into nuclear fusion 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: as a power source, if in fact that is possible 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: to make a sustainable, effective power source. I'm very much 14 00:00:54,560 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: in favor of getting off of all fossil fuels, particularly coal. However, 15 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: I will do my best to discuss this topic without bias, 16 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: in other words, without just constantly spitting on coal. And 17 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: even an advocate for clean energy like me has to 18 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: admit there are enormous challenges in the way of weaning 19 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: ourselves off of coal and other fossil fuels as an 20 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: energy source. There are big things we have to be 21 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: able to make work for that to happen. So we're 22 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: gonna talk about those two because it's important to look 23 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: at these problems from a big picture perspective and to 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: not just ignore the very real hurdles that are in 25 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: our way, because if we do, if we ignore those hurdles, 26 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: then we set ourselves up for failure when we try 27 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: to change things. If we acknowledge the challenges, then maybe 28 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: we can figure out a way of getting around them, 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: over them, or through them. So what is coal. I've 30 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: already mentioned that it's a fossil fuel, but what that 31 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: really means is that originally comes from or gain nic material, 32 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: most notably pete. Pete is a large source of a 33 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: lot of the coal that we use today. So this 34 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: organic material accumulates, it gets buried over times of animals die, 35 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: plants die, they decompose, they get buried by sand and 36 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: other stuff, and centuries go by and more and more 37 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: layers build up around this material, and the material then 38 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: starts to compact under all that pressure, and the temperature 39 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: grows because it's under pressure like the Wonderful Queen and 40 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: uh David Boisong. And then as it has all of 41 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: this pressure and heat, the material hardens into a rock 42 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: like substance and it turns into coal. So to call 43 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: it coal, it has to contain a significant amount of 44 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: carbonaceous material by weight or volume. Carbonaceous just means that 45 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: it has to contain carbon or carbon compounds. The amount 46 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: and type of carbon and coal determines how much energy 47 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: the coal contains, and really, to us, what that mostly 48 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: means is how much heat the coal is capable of 49 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: producing when it is burned when it's combusted in a furnace. This, 50 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: in turn is dependent upon a few things, including how 51 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: much heat and pressure went into creating the coal in 52 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: the first place. There are a lot of different ways 53 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: of classifying coal, but there are four main ranks of coal. 54 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: There's anthracite coal, and that has at least eight ton 55 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: carbon in it. This coal has the highest heating value 56 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: of coal, and there ain't a lot of it. It's 57 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: not plentiful in the United States. Less than one percent 58 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: of all the coal mind in the country ranks as anthracite. 59 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: The one place in the United States where it is 60 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: mined right now is Pennsylvania. This coal is used nearly 61 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: exclusively by the metals industry. Coal blaze an important part 62 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: in producing various types of metal and metallurgy. Then you 63 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: have by tuminous coal. Bituminous coal contains between forty five 64 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: to eighty six carbon, and this makes up nearly half 65 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: of all the coal mind in the United States. Specifically, 66 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: it's around for of all the coal we mine here 67 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: in the US. This is the coal that's used primarily 68 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: for coal burning power plants for generating electricity. It's also 69 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: used in iron and steel industries. Five states in the 70 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: United States produced nearly all of the coal for the 71 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: entire country. Those five states are West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Illinois, 72 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: and Indiana. Then you have sub bituminous coal that contains 73 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,559 Speaker 1: between thirty five carbon, so as less carbon. You'll notice 74 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: in these ranks were going down by the amount of 75 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: percentage of carbon the material. It also has a lower 76 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: heating value. It doesn't burn as hot as bituminous coal. 77 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: It makes up about for of all coal production in 78 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 1: the US. So sub by tuminous and bituminous coal make 79 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: up when you add it up. And remember the anthracite 80 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: makes up less than one percent, so the rest of 81 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: it is made up of lignite. As the last rank, 82 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: it contains only twenty carbon. This stuff can convert into 83 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: synthetic natural gas with some processing. We also call it 84 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: sin gas s y n G A S, and i'll 85 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: talk about that again a little bit later in this episode. Now, 86 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: human beings have been using coal for at least three 87 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: thousand years, though many early references to coal actually are 88 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: referring to charcoal, not to the stuff we mine out 89 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: of the ground. Charcoal is not the same thing as coal. 90 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: Charcoal is what you get when you remove water and 91 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 1: several compounds from wood, and typically you do this in 92 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: a low oxygen environment, and you would apply a lot 93 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: of heat to the wood. So if it were a 94 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: high oxygen environment, the wood would catch fire and burn, 95 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: but because it's low oxygen, that reaction can't happen. We 96 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,679 Speaker 1: remember the triangle that you need in order to make fire. 97 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: You have to have heat, and you have to have fuel, 98 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: and you have to have an oxidizer, typically oxygen. So 99 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: you're not you're you're you're heating up in a low 100 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: oxygen environment, you're essentially cooking the wood. The technical term 101 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: for this would be pyrolysis. So again you're not burning it, 102 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: you're just removing moisture and heating up the wood in 103 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: this low oxygen environment, and you end up with about 104 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: a quarter of the mass that you started with, or 105 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: a quarter by weight, So all those compounds in the 106 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: water make up a lot of the weight, the majority 107 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: of the weight of the wood, so you end up 108 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: with something that's about the weight of whatever you started with. 109 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 1: Now we've used coal, the mineral, the stuff we mine 110 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: for a really long time, uh, But the widespread, large 111 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: scale use of coal, the industrial use of coal, really 112 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: didn't get going until the eighteenth century. That's when you 113 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: had inventors like Abraham Darby who developed methods for using 114 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: coal in blast furnaces. And the Industrial Revolution, which really 115 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: began in England and then spread throughout the rest of 116 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: the world, saw an enormous need for coal, and that 117 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: pushed the mining industry from being sort of a modest effort. 118 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: And there were mines that existed before the Industrial Revolution, 119 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: but the need for coal was much more modest then, 120 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: so they were very much surface minds. At this point, 121 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: the need for coal was voracious, so mine started getting 122 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: deeper and going further and requiring way more manpower to operate. 123 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: It became an enormous enterprise, employing thousands of people, tens 124 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: of thousands of people. Coal mining became a lucrative but 125 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: dangerous business. Miners encountered deadly gases, some of them explosive, 126 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,679 Speaker 1: so if you were to create a spark while mining, 127 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: you could ignite that explosive gas and have have a 128 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: true catastrophe. Some gases are poisonous. Uh, there was always 129 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: an issue with flooding. That was always a danger with 130 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: mine chefts. There was also the possibility of mine chefts collapsing, 131 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: but the demand for coal created enough of a reward 132 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: to merit the risk, at least in the minds of 133 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 1: the coal mine owners, if not the actual miners who 134 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: were doing the work. Britain led the way in coal 135 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: mining in this early time in the eighteenth century, and 136 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: because it was plentiful, lower rank coal in England, not 137 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: the stuff that we would use today to generate electricity, 138 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: would frequently be used as a fuel to warm homes 139 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: in coal furnaces. So you have a furnace, throw some 140 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: coal in there and that was what would generate heat. 141 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: That created a lot of air pollution in England. London, 142 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: which had a reputation for heavy fogs, was frequently blanketed 143 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: in smog, and smog, of course, is made up of 144 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,959 Speaker 1: particulate matter that comes out of burning fossil fuels, particularly coal. 145 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: This peaked in nineteen fifty two with the Great Smog 146 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: of London, which produced a smog so thick and so 147 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: persistent it reduced visibility drastically to just a few meters, 148 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: and it had an enormously negative impact on citizen health. 149 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: People started developing really terrible respiratory illnesses as a result. 150 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: So what does burning coal produce, apart from heat that 151 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: we can use in applications like boiling water into steam 152 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: to turn a turbine and generate electricity. Well, the burning 153 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: process breaks the chemical bonds between the atoms and coal. 154 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: Those molecular bonds get broken and that's what releases energy 155 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: and also several potential pollutants, including contaminants that could be 156 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: part of the coal. That can include stuff like mercury, 157 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: which is a toxic heavy metal. Mercury is dangerous stuff. 158 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: It can damage health in numerous ways. It can cause 159 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: damage to the nervous system, the digestive system, the immune system. 160 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: In fourteen, US coal plants emitted more than forty five 161 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: thousand pounds of mercury coal plants are responsible for of 162 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: all mercury emissions in the United States, so that's a 163 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: big one. Sulfur dioxide is another one that's an emission 164 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: that's very dangerous. Coal frequently has sulfur in it, and 165 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: when sulfur reacts with oxygen during the coal burning process, 166 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: because again you need to have that oxygen to have 167 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: combustion happen, you end up getting sulfur oxide, and that 168 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: sulfur oxide can combine with other molecules. These emissions are 169 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: harmful to us. Also, sulfur dioxide, once it has reacted fully, 170 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: it's got a strong link to acid rain, so that's 171 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: terrible also to smog and can be linked to problems 172 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: like bronchitis and asthma. Then you also have nitrogen oxides. 173 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: It's another byproduct that it can also contribute to smog, 174 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: and it also can end up leading to the development 175 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: of respiratory ailments or make existing respiratory ailments much much worse. 176 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: These are just a sample of some of the pollutants 177 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: that can come out of burning coal. You also get 178 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: coal ash. Uh. These are also called coal combustion residuals 179 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: or CCRs, and this is actually again a collection of stuff. 180 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: It's not just one thing. Um. There's fly ash, which 181 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: is mostly made of silica, which is powdery and very 182 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: very fine. There's bottom ash, which is made up of large, 183 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: coarse ash particles. These particles are too large for heat 184 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: to carry them up the smoke stack of power plants, 185 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: so they tend to gather at the bottom of furnaces. 186 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: There are some types of furnaces that create molten ash, 187 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: also called boiler slag, which has to be drained or 188 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: drawn out of furnaces regularly using a tap, and typically 189 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: you would cool this mixture with water and at that 190 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: point the ash turns into glassy pellets. And then there's 191 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: the flu gas desulfurization material, which is a byproduct produced 192 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: by a sulfur dioxide emission reduction process. It's typically either 193 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: a dry, powdered material or a wet sludge, depending upon 194 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: the reduction method employed. I'll talk more about that in 195 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 1: our next section. Now, coal ash also contains dangerous stuff 196 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: in it, like lead, cadmium, arsenic, and mercury, and for 197 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: that reason, regulatory agencies like the e p A, the 198 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: environment Environmental Protection Agency, maintain pretty strict rules about how 199 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: power plants may dispose of coal ash to prevent contaminants 200 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: from polluting the environment. These regulations under more recent years 201 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: have been scrutinized and somewhat cut back due to political 202 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: maneuvers by people who are in the e p A 203 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: who previously came from the coal and power utility industries. 204 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: I'll talk more about that because one of the big 205 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: challenges we have to look at isn't a technological challenge. 206 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: It's not a scientific challenge, it's a political challenge. So 207 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: burning coal releases a lot of energy that's useful, but 208 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: it also produces stuff that's harmful to us and to 209 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: the environment. And coal is plentiful and cheap, so it 210 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: makes it a very attractive energy source. It definitely has 211 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: its downsides. The pollutants are undeniably bad, but the fuel 212 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: source is easy to get, and that's one of the 213 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: big reasons why it's hard to wean ourselves off of 214 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: coal that's cheap and other options are less cheap. So 215 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: how do experts propose to mitigate the pollution problems? In 216 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: the next section, we're going to take a look at 217 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: what clean coal is and how it works and try 218 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: to answer the question how clean is it really? But first, 219 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break to thank our sponsor. All right, 220 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: let's get this out of the way first. Clean coal 221 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: refers to processes and technology, not to coal itself. The 222 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: coal used in clean coal applications is just as dirty 223 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: as coal thrown into an otherwise unremarkable blast furnace, and 224 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: coal is the dirtiest of fossil fuels, meaning that it 225 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: produces more pollution and a wider variety of pollutants per 226 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: unit burn than any other fossil fuel. However, the fact 227 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: that coal is plentiful and inexpensive means it's likely to 228 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: remain important in major industries like generating electricity for quite 229 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: some time unless something major changes. So engineers have dedicated 230 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: a lot of time, research, and effort into creating systems 231 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: that can limit the amount of pollution emitted into the environment. 232 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: There are procedures that can reduce some of the stuff 233 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: that would otherwise be released when you burn coal. And 234 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: this is another important point. There's no single process that 235 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: is good for reducing all pollutants. There's no one system 236 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: that we can put coal through and get clean air 237 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: coming out of the smoke stack. On the other side, 238 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: there are lots of individual systems that are really effective 239 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: or pretty effective at reducing one or more of the pollutants, 240 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: but there's no single approach that gets everything. So if 241 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: you wanted to burn coal with a bare minimum environmental impact, 242 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: you would have to employ multiple methods and thus have 243 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: a more complicated system. And we'll talk a little bit 244 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: more and a bit about why that's a big challenge. Now. 245 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: One of the methods you could use to have a 246 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: clean coal application is called coal washing, and it's pretty 247 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: much what it sounds like. There are two main approaches 248 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: you can take. One involves a physical process in which 249 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: you rely upon the different densities of the various contaminants 250 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: found in coal to be able to separate them out 251 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: and remove them and leave the coal behind. The other 252 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: relies upon chemical processes to remove those same contaminants. The 253 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: most common of the two is the physical approach, not 254 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: the chemical approach. Chemical approach is still one of those 255 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: things that's constantly being studied, but so far, as far 256 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: as I can tell, has not been scaled up to 257 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: a degree where it could actually be used practically in 258 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: widespread applications. So with coal washing, with the physical approach, 259 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: you take the raw coal that you've mined out of 260 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: the ground, and then you use some heavy machinery to 261 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: crush it up into much smaller pieces. You sift the 262 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: crushed coal and you separate it into different sized particles 263 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: um and you can use a series of sieves this 264 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: way right. You can use one that's very fine, and 265 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: that way only the smallest particles come through. And once 266 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: you've got all those out, you transfer the material to 267 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: a sieve that has slightly larger grids in it, so 268 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: that way slightly larger particles can come through. You do 269 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: this several times until you've divided up the coal particles 270 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: into different piles, and then you put them through their 271 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: respective cleaning processes. The process is pretty much the same 272 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: for each one. It just it makes it easier to 273 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: divide them up, so they all tend to work essentially 274 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: the same way. You put the coal particles into a 275 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: container like a vat, and it has jets water jets 276 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: in it that can push water up through the coal, 277 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: and it creates this upward current. The coal is lighter 278 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: than the contaminants, so the coal gets pushed towards the 279 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: top the contaminants to sink towards the bottom and you 280 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: can then separate out the coal from the contaminants. This way, 281 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: then you have to dry the coal before you can 282 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: use as a fuel. That's a process takes quite a 283 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: bit of time and energy in itself. Uh. It reduces 284 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: but does not eliminate all pollutants. So you could reduce, however, 285 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: you know the amount of pollutants you're releasing into the atmosphere, 286 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: but you don't eliminate them entirely, and it requires energy 287 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: to do this system. That's something that we also have 288 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: to keep in mind in each of these steps is 289 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: that the whole purpose of using coal in the first 290 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: place is to generate electricity, at least in the applications 291 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: I'm talking about here. But if you have to dedicate 292 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: energy towards the process, that means you're you're eating into 293 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: your own returns. Right. If your goal is to create 294 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: electricity and you're having to use some energy in your process, 295 00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: more and more of the energy and your process to 296 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: get acceptable to generate electricity in this way, then you're 297 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: eating into your own ability to generate the thing you're selling. 298 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: You're you're eating into your own revenue, if you like. So. 299 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: Another process focuses on the gas generated from burning coal. 300 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,479 Speaker 1: Using what are called wet scrubbers, you can treat that 301 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: gas so that a chemical reaction renders otherwise harmful emissions 302 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: inert This is what I was talking about a little 303 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: bit earlier in the last section. So sulfur dioxide, which 304 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 1: can react with other gases in the atmosphere and create 305 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: fine particles that are harmful to the environment and to 306 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: the health of humans, is a great example. Sulfur dioxide 307 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: scrubber is a flu gas desulfurization technology. As the gases 308 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: from burning coal moves from the furnace into a special chamber, 309 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: nozzles spray a slurry made up of limestone and water. 310 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: Limestone has calcium in it, and the calcium in the 311 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: limestone reacts chemically with the sulfur dioxide. The main byproduct 312 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: is a substance called calcium sulfate. You have this chemical 313 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: reaction and you get calcium sulfate as a result, also 314 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: known as synthetic gypsum. This stuff can be used in 315 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: other materials, including cement, so you can actually put it 316 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: to use elsewhere, which helps bring down the cost. Right 317 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: if you can, if you can put a byproduct to 318 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: use it brings down the overall cost of the process 319 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: because you recapture some of that by repurposing the material. 320 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: Discrubbers can move a lot, but not all, of the 321 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: sulfur dioxide emissions from coal firing plants if they are 322 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: properly used. Nitrogen Oxides are another problem, and they require 323 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: a different approach. Nitrogen Oxides are a group of highly 324 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: reactive gases that are poisonous. Coal combustion produces fuel nitrogen 325 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: oxide and thermal nitrogen oxide. Nitrogen can't be removed ahead 326 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: of time from coal, so the only options you have 327 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: to come up with are away to remove it during 328 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: or following combustion. You can't do a pre combustion cleaning 329 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: to remove nitrogen. You can only do it as you're 330 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: burning it or after you've burned it during combustion. You 331 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: could use what is called a low nitrogen oxide burner. 332 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: This actually requires careful management of the ratio of fuel 333 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: to air to reduce the amount of nitrogen oxide emissions 334 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: during several stages of combustion, so it slows down this process. 335 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: It's possible to retrofit existing boilers with these types of burners, 336 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: but they're limited in their effectiveness. They can reduce emissions 337 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: between thirty to which is not bad, but it still 338 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: means that you have almost you can have up to 339 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: more than half of all emissions still going out into 340 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: the environment, which is not great. After combustion, you can 341 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: use something like selective catalytic reduction, in which you inject 342 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: ammonia into a catalytic reactor and you can use something 343 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: like titanium oxide as a catalyst as flu gas flows 344 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: through it. This is the gas given off by combusting. 345 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: The Colt's very hot and it's got all these chemicals 346 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: in it. All. The reaction with the catalyst and with 347 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: the ammonia creates some byproducts like water, vapor, and nitrogen, 348 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: not nitrogen oxide, but just nitrogen. This process reduces nitrogen 349 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: oxide emissions by eight to nine though unreacted ammonia ammonia 350 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: that did not actually go through this chemical reaction can 351 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: also become an emission that's not great. There's a similar 352 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: approach called the selective non catalytic reduction that requires a 353 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: higher operating temperature because you're not using a catalyst, which 354 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: you know, catalysts make chemical reactions easier if you like. 355 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: They facilitate chemical reactions well in the absence of a catalyst, 356 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: you have to compensate by increasing the temperature um But 357 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: then you don't have of a catalyst, and instead of 358 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: using ammonia, use a different chemical. The reaction with the 359 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: fluid gas results in nitrogen, water, vapor, and carbon dioxide. 360 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 1: The overall reduction of nitrogen oxide emissions tends to be 361 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: between seventy four. But then you also have CEO two, 362 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: which we'll get to a little bit later. Then there's 363 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: the particulate matter that gets carried up in smoke stacks, 364 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: the the coal ash, if you will, and can contribute 365 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: to stuff like asthma and other respiratory problems. One way 366 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: to reduce those emissions is to use an electrical field 367 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: or a series of high voltage electrical fields. The purpose 368 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: of this is to impart an electrical charge onto the 369 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: particulate matter as it moves through the system. Now, once 370 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: those particles are charged, they will move near collection plates 371 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: that carry the opposite charge, and opposite charges attract, so 372 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: the particular dust will cling to the collection plates. They 373 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: can be really effective in removing that particulate matter, like 374 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: percent effective in some cases. However, this also means using 375 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: some of the electricity you're generating to power the system, 376 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: so again you're getting a reduced return on your investment 377 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: because you have to use some of that electricity just 378 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: to keep the process from being too dirty. Another method 379 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 1: involves a different approach to using coal called gasification, which 380 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: gives you a hint at what's involved. Use steam and 381 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: pressurized air or pressurized oxygen, and you have that air 382 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: oxygen heated too very high temperatures, and you combine all 383 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: this with the coal. This forces a chemical reaction in 384 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: which carbon molecules break apart and produce sin gas. That's 385 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: synthetic natural gas I talked about earlier. Sin gas is 386 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide. You also get water, vapor, 387 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: and carbon dioxide from this process. The sin gas, once 388 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: chemically scrubbed, can be used in a gas turbine to 389 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: generate electricity. So instead of generating heat to boil water 390 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: and turn a steam turb line, you can have a 391 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: a sin gas powered turbine that just takes the fuel 392 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: and uses that to generate electricity directly. Not only that, 393 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: but then you can also capture waste heat from this 394 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: process to boil water and turn a second turbine a 395 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: steam turbine, so it can increase the the efficiency of 396 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: a power system this way, and um, you essentially turn 397 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: waste heat into productive heat. You still produce carbon dioxide 398 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: this way, and that's a greenhouse gas, and that's still 399 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: a big problem. Uh. And carbon dioxide emissions continue to 400 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: contribute to climate change, so reducing them is critically important 401 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: to limit the damage we face in the years to come. 402 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: Not to avoid the damage that's going to happen one 403 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: way or the other, but to mitigate it. We need 404 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: to cut back on carbon dioxide emissions in order to 405 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: have that happen. So in the next section, I'm going 406 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: to talk about carbon capture and storage, and then we'll 407 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: wrap up the whole clean coal conversation. But first let's 408 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 1: take another quick break to thank our sponsor. Carbon dioxide 409 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: makes up the vast majority, percentage wise, of all greenhouse 410 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: gas emissions. Back in it was of all greenhouse gases 411 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: emitted by man. Now, there's a natural process on our 412 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: planet in which carbon gets removed from the atmosphere. Plants 413 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: do it as part of their normal life cycle. They 414 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: take in carbon dioxide, but we're dumping way more c 415 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: O two into the air than plants can absorb, and 416 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: on top of that, we tend to wipe out large 417 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: areas of plant life in order to do stuff like 418 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: build cities or have farmland. The carbon we're introducing into 419 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 1: the atmosphere has been locked away in coal for millions 420 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: of years until suddenly unleashed and dumped in there. So 421 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: is there some way we could reverse that right and 422 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: take carbon out of the air and lock it back up. 423 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: The answer is not only yes, but also that there 424 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: are lots of different ways we can do this. There 425 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: are three general approaches when it. We're talking about coal 426 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,719 Speaker 1: power plants in particular, because there's no simple way of 427 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: just grabbing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere in general. So 428 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: if we look at the places where we're dumping a 429 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: lot of c O two and say, can we find 430 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: a way to capture it right there at that source, 431 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: that would be very helpful. So first, you can use 432 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: sorbents or solvents to capture c O two. Adds orbins 433 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: such as activated carbon or zeolites can separate c O 434 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: two from other gas mixtures, and it's used in the 435 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: process of hydrogen production. It's also used to remove c 436 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: O two from natural gas, but when it comes to 437 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: coal power plants, that's a different story. Absorbent materials have 438 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: a limited capacity to take out CEO two, and they 439 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: aren't quite up to the task of doing the job 440 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: on so large a scale as on flu gas. So 441 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: while it does work in smaller applications for things like 442 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: a cold power plant, this approach would not work. Solvents 443 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: are more promising, and in fact are actually being used 444 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: in some carbon capture facilities already right now as the 445 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: primary way of capturing carbon dioxide. UH there's a process 446 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: called amine scrubbing in which derivatives of ammonia called amines, 447 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: react with flu gas. They can potentially remove an enormous 448 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: amount of carbon dioxide, practically all of it at least 449 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: on paper. But there are some questions about how quickly 450 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: certain amines may degrade in flu gas, or how much 451 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: energy is needed to regenerate the system. You know, how 452 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: much do you how much energy do you need to 453 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: put in to put in enough of the solvent the 454 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: solvents to take out the CEO too, And without answering 455 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 1: those questions, we can't really know if this is an 456 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,719 Speaker 1: effective approach on a large scale. But there are a 457 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: lot of pilot programs out there that are using this method. 458 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: The next big way, because that was one, right, the 459 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: sword bids and the solvents, The second big way to 460 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: remove CEO two from gases is to use gas separation membranes, 461 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: which is pretty much what sounds like. You can think 462 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: of it again kind of like a sieve um. They 463 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: allow certain materials to pass through and they keep other 464 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: materials back. And there are lots of different types of 465 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: membranes out there, so I'm not going to go through 466 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: them all because they get real technical and there are 467 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: tons of them, but you would typically need several membranes 468 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: along an entire stream because they don't individually achieve a 469 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: high degree of separation. In other words, stuff can get 470 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: through one membrane, so you want to have extra layers 471 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: kind of extra layers of protection to capture all of 472 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: the CEO two. However, adding membranes adds complexity to the system, 473 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: and complexity tends to translate into cost. It means, the 474 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,719 Speaker 1: more complex system, the more expensive it tends to be. 475 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: You would likely need different types of membranes, not all 476 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: just the same one. Because of the various byproducts that 477 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: come from coal, combustion, and in any case, the membrane 478 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: approach isn't currently scalable to be an effective, efficient and 479 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: affordable process for something like a coal power plant. So 480 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: maybe one day it will be, but right now it isn't. 481 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: It's still in the sort of research and development phase. 482 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: The third big process is another one that's not going 483 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: to work too well for major coal power plants, but 484 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: it's cryogenic approaches. That means using the processes of cooling 485 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: and condensation to separate carbon dioxide from other flu gases. Again, 486 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be an effective process for post combustion treatment 487 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: because you have to do a lot of other stuff 488 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: to the gases first, like you would have to separate 489 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: out the water vapor before you could use a cryogenic approach. 490 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: You could use it in a pre combustion process, so 491 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: before you've actually um started to combust the coal. Capturing 492 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: the CEO two, however, is just the first step after 493 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: preventing the carbon dioxide from going into the atmosphere at large. 494 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: Now you gotta do something with it, right, You captured 495 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: it all, you put it into canisters. Now what Well, 496 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: there are two main long term storage options. One involves 497 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: burying the CEO two deep in the earth. I mean 498 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: literally pumping it there. That's where we got the carbon 499 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: from from the first place. After all, right, we went down, 500 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: we dug out coal, We burned the coal that released 501 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: the CEO two. So in a way, we're just putting 502 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: it back where it blocks, if you think of it 503 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: that way. The other option is putting it into the ocean. 504 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: We call these two approaches the geologic and the oceanic 505 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: carbon capture strategies. So with the geologic approach, you inject 506 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: carbon dioxide deep into the earth itself, typically into underground 507 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: oil or gas fields, where it can get absorbed in 508 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: the into the ground, or you can actually pump it 509 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: into any part of the earth that happens to have 510 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: some salty water and poorous rock in the mix, and 511 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: the carbon dioxide will soak in. The idea is that 512 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,719 Speaker 1: it will lock into the ground and stay there and 513 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: slowly bind with the materials in the surrounding rocks over 514 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: the course of millions of years. The oceanic approach requires 515 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: another step. First, you take the c O two you've captured, 516 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: and then you have to pressurize it to get it 517 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: down to the super critical liquid states. So now you've 518 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: got liquid CEO two. This, by the way, is another 519 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: energy hungry process and one that becomes less efficient as 520 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: you scale up the system. You have to pour energy 521 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: into it in order for it to happen, which again 522 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: eats into your bottom line. Anyway, now you've got liquid 523 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: carbon dioxide. You inject the liquid c O two into 524 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: deep water, and by deep, I'm talking about between five 525 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: hundred and three thousand meters, which is around feet to 526 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: just under ten thousand feet deep. At that depth, the 527 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: waters pressure, the amount of water pressure is enough to 528 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: dissolve the CEO two into the water. However, this process 529 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: would in turn lower the pH of the water at 530 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: that region, turning it slightly acidic, which could end up 531 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: being harmful to aquatic life. So this is something that 532 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: we're not entirely sure would have a net positive environmental impact. 533 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: Now keep in mind, to truly be clean coal, you 534 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: would have to use multiple strategies I've talked about on 535 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: this episode in order to get all the pollutants. Carbon 536 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: capture is not going to do you any good for 537 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: things like stopping mercury from getting out into the environment. 538 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: And even then, you're talking about reducing some of those 539 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: pollutants significantly, but not eliminating them, so some of it's 540 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: still getting out into the environment. And as you add 541 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: in these various systems, as I mentioned earlier, it creates 542 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: more and more complex facilities, and the more complex a 543 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: facility is, the more expensive it gets. Maintenance is also 544 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: an added expense, so you end up with a system 545 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: where the will is still cheap, the fuel is cheap 546 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: and plentiful, but using it gets more and more expensive, 547 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 1: especially if you want to use it in a way 548 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: where you're capturing as many of these pollutings as possible. 549 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: Some of that expense also, like I said, it means 550 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: dedicating some of the energy or some of the electricity 551 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: in the in the system just to keep the whole 552 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: thing running, So you lose out on some of the 553 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: stuff you would otherwise sell to the public. And in 554 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: order to stay profitable that might mean that you have 555 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: to raise the cost of electricity of the service. So 556 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: as a general rule, and again this is this goes 557 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: without saying that I'm gonna say it, companies aren't terribly 558 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: keen on increasing costs and eating into the bottom line. 559 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: That's generally thought of as a bad thing in business. 560 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: You want to cut costs and maximize profits. So the 561 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: coal industry and power utilities in in the United States 562 00:34:53,840 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: have lobbied historically to great extents and vigorously to limit 563 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 1: regulations and in more recent years to reverse previously established regulations. 564 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: And that's because clean coal, if implemented properly at scale, 565 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: is gonna be expensive. It is more environmentally conscious, It 566 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: is the better choice to make from a health perspective, 567 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: from an environment perspective, and I would argue from a 568 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: long term economic perspective, but from a short term economic perspective, 569 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: it may not be the most attractive option if you're 570 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 1: just looking at literally a return on investment. Shareholders want 571 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: to see money come back to them when they pour 572 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: it into an industry or a company, So it's hard 573 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: to make that case to say in the short term, 574 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: we are not going to see big returns, but further 575 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: down the road, we're going to see much better returns, 576 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: and we're also going to avoid doing further critical damage 577 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: to the environment. Now, when I say that a coal 578 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: power plant that's running on a clean coal strategy is 579 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: more expensive, what does that mean. It means that it 580 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 1: costs about more to operate a clean coal coal plant 581 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: than a normal coal plant. That's a tall order. Now, 582 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: the cost of clean coal might make it less attractive 583 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: than say, greener renewable energy sources, and you might say, oh, well, 584 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: instead of doing this clean coal approach, maybe we should 585 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: invest more in wind power or hydro power or solar power. 586 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,760 Speaker 1: A carbon tax, which is a tax in which companies 587 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,839 Speaker 1: would have to pay a fee in return for being 588 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: allowed to emit carbon dioxide. Sometimes there's like a credit program. 589 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: You purchase credits, and for each credit, you're allowed a 590 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: certain amount of CEO two emissions, but you have to 591 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: pay for it. The idea is that this creates the 592 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: incentive for companies to not emit carbon, to cut back 593 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: on carbon emissions so as to avoid having to pay 594 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,720 Speaker 1: those fees. It's the idea of creating an economic system 595 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: of pressure to force companies, or at least to encourage 596 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: companies to cut carbon emissions. That that could also help. 597 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: And it would be really nice to see a move 598 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: toward more renewable methods. If companies said, well, coal itself 599 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: is still cheap, it's still easy to get, but using 600 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: it as too expensive. I would love to see that 601 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,919 Speaker 1: because I would love to see more money going into 602 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 1: renewable energy sources, which have a much lower environmental impact 603 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: than coal or even natural gas, because again coal is 604 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: the dirtiest fossil fuel. It's not hard to have a 605 00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: lower environmental impact than burning coal. Uh And and also 606 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 1: I shouldn't mention renewable energy sources still have an environmental impact. 607 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: You know, we can't just say that they're magical and 608 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: they don't harm the environment at all. That's not entirely true. 609 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: You have to if you look at the big picture 610 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: at how these things are made, there's still an environmental 611 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: cost to be paid. It's just not nearly as dear 612 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: a cost as using coal. So one of the really 613 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: big challenges facing renewable energy is that it's up against 614 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,919 Speaker 1: a super cheap fossil fuel. If we decide the only 615 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: way we can allow coal combustion is if we require 616 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: coal plants to reduce emissions as much as possible, then 617 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: it might become financially viable for more companies to invest 618 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: in alternatives, because getting a coal plant up to speed 619 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: incorporating all these systems might be more expensive than just 620 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: scrapping it and saying all right, we're gonna get into 621 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: solar now. Um, so that's that's actually something that is 622 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: possible if the regulations are put in place, But that 623 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: has not been the trend, at least in the United 624 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: States over the last couple of years. The trend has 625 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: actually been in the reverse, getting rid of regulations as 626 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 1: opposed to strengthening them. Now, some people could argue that 627 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: advocating for clean coal at all is really a smoke 628 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: screen pun intended to keep the status quo for as 629 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: long as possible. In other words, someone who says no, no, no, 630 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,359 Speaker 1: we need to keep investing in clean coal might really 631 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: be saying I want to be able to keep using 632 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: coal as a fuel source, and if I can argue 633 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: that the research and development into clean coal is going 634 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: to pay off and dividends, I can keep using coal. 635 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 1: In the meantime, it becomes like a shell game. Uh. 636 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: Some clean coal technologies are mature technologies. They are proven 637 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: and they can be used right now, and they are 638 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: used and widely some of them, but others are still young, 639 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: they're still in development. There's still questions about whether or 640 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: not they can actually work on large scale applications. So 641 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,240 Speaker 1: the meantime, there are a lot of coal power plants 642 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: out there with few of those systems in place, and 643 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: they're dumping more CEO two and other pollutants into the atmosphere. 644 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: There are a lot of environmental advocates who say we 645 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: can't continue with this, that we can't argue for clean 646 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: coal and simultaneously not use the techniques that we already 647 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: have created to mitigate coal's pollution. So it's a pretty 648 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 1: dirty argument. Ultimately, clean coal the combustion of coal in 649 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: a way that has the minimal environmental impact. I believe 650 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: that is going to be possible with the right investments. 651 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: Whether those right investments are ever fully made and implemented 652 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: is another question, because it may turn out that companies 653 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: make this decision that it makes more sense to switch 654 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,720 Speaker 1: to a different energy source than it does to update 655 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: all of these old power plants and have them run 656 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: under this new system. I worry right now that some 657 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: of those advocates are absolutely right that clean coal is 658 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: really just allowing an excuse to stick with an old, 659 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: dirty fossil fuel that is doing more harm than good 660 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: rather than and and pulling our focus away from alternatives 661 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,320 Speaker 1: that could be much more beneficial. The nice thing I 662 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: can say is that over the last few years, natural 663 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: gas production has been on the rise, and natural gas, 664 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: while still a fossil fuel, produces fewer pollutants than cold does, 665 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: so the d emphasis on coal is a good thing. 666 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: The problem is we need to make much more drastic 667 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: cuts in greenhouse gas emissions than just switching from coal 668 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: to natural gas will allow. We have to go further 669 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 1: than that, and the question is do we have the 670 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: willpower and the ingenuity and the innovation necessary to do it. 671 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,839 Speaker 1: I think we do have the ingenuity and innovation. It's 672 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,800 Speaker 1: the willpower part that I question. Um. I certainly hope 673 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 1: we do, because I would love to see a world 674 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: where we are able to move off of fossil fuels entirely. 675 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: I think it would improve not just the environment, but 676 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 1: it could improve the economy. It could certainly improve things 677 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: like national security. If you are able to be self 678 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 1: sufficient for your power needs entirely and you're not having 679 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 1: to import fossil fuels, that's fantastic. It's a great way 680 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,399 Speaker 1: to improve national security. There are a lot of good 681 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:45,919 Speaker 1: arguments for it, but economically it maybe a harder sell, 682 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: And sometimes that's the toughest battle to fight, is the 683 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: battle of the price tag. What do you guys think. 684 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear your thoughts about energy and what 685 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 1: we should be turning to? UM, what should we really 686 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,320 Speaker 1: focus on? I'm curious you guys are all tech savvy 687 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: folks right to me let me know I want to hear. 688 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: The email address is tech stuff at how stuff works 689 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: dot com, and don't forget to pop on over to 690 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: our website that's tech stuff Podcast dot com. You can 691 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 1: look at the archive all of our older episodes there. 692 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: You can also find ways to contact me on social media, 693 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: where I'm quite the social media butterfly. And don't forget 694 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 1: to pop over to our merchandise store over at t 695 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: public dot com slash tech stuff. That's where you can 696 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: make purchases of all of our cool designs. And remember, 697 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: every purchase you make goes to help the show and 698 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: we greatly appreciate it. And I will talk to you 699 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: again really soon for more on this and thousands of 700 00:43:51,360 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com. Eight