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Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Ben Bullet. You might know my podcast stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. And if you like

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction, you'll see that we have a vibe in

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Speaker 1: common in that we bring stories that need to be

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Speaker 1: told to the wider world. And with our pal Jason

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Speaker 1: out of town, the Lava for Good team invited me

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Speaker 1: to introduce a few of my favorite episodes. So as

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Speaker 1: a guy who lives in Georgia, I loved hearing a

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Speaker 1: story so close to home, one that was also recorded

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Speaker 1: very close to home. The interview we're about to hear

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Speaker 1: took place at the twenty nineteen Innocence Network conference held

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Speaker 1: here in Atlanta, and the guest Clemente Shorty. Again, his

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Speaker 1: story is particularly resonant in this current political climate. He's

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Speaker 1: a Honduran man who established himself in the US. He

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Speaker 1: got wrongfully convicted of a double murder, and then he

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Speaker 1: got sent to death row in Florida, only to later

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Speaker 1: be exonerated by DNA evidence and the real killer's multiple

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Speaker 1: out of court confessions. Shorty is off death row right

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Speaker 1: now and out of prison, but as of this recording,

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Speaker 1: he could still be deported back to Honduras, where honestly

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Speaker 1: another death sentence awaits, this time at the hands of

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Speaker 1: the gang he refused to join so many years ago.

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Speaker 1: His story is an incredible one, and it's one that

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Speaker 1: needs our attention right now. So let's hear from the

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Speaker 1: man himself.

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Speaker 2: Clemente Shorty Aguire grew up in Honduras, but in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and one, when rival street gangs demanded that he

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Speaker 2: pick aside or die, he found himself with no choice

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Speaker 2: but to run. He escaped to the United States, crossing

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Speaker 2: our southern border illegally, and ultimately he found work as

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Speaker 2: a cook, living in Seminole County, Florida, in a trailer park,

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Speaker 2: where he formed friendly ties with various neighbors. But on

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Speaker 2: June seventeenth of two thousand and four, Shorty was hanging

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Speaker 2: out into the wee hours of the morning when he

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Speaker 2: went to his friend Cheryl Williams's trailer to grab a beer,

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Speaker 2: and there he found himself inside of a gruesome crime scene.

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Speaker 2: The trailer had been ransacked and was covered in blood.

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Speaker 2: Cheryl and her mother Carol had been stabbed repeatedly and

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Speaker 2: were dead. He checked the bodies for signs of life,

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Speaker 2: thereby inadvertently tampering with the crime scene. Knowing that nothing

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Speaker 2: would bring them back, and fearing deportation or worse, he

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Speaker 2: chose to stay quiet initially, but later that day Clemente

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Speaker 2: came forward about his discovery. His immigration status and unwitting

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Speaker 2: crime scene tampering made him a prime suspect, and with

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Speaker 2: the deadly combination of an ineffective public defender and the

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Speaker 2: prosecution's tunnel vision, Clemente was convicted and sent to death row.

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Speaker 2: In this episode, recorded at the Innocent Network conference in Atlanta,

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Speaker 2: we speak with Clemente Shortia Giri and one of his

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Speaker 2: lead post conviction attorneys, Maria Deliberado, who, along with a

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Speaker 2: list of mostly pro bono private council would properly reinvestigate

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Speaker 2: the crime and test the one hundred and ninety seven

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Speaker 2: pieces of crime scene evidence that had never been tested

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Speaker 2: for DNA. Ultimately excluding they even found new evidence that

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Speaker 2: would lead to the identity of the woman who was

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Speaker 2: almost certainly the true perpetrator and who confessed to the

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Speaker 2: crime on numerous occasions, Cheryl's own daughter, Samantha Williams. Shorty

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Speaker 2: spent over fourteen long years in prison, most of it

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Speaker 2: on death row, for a crime he simply did not

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Speaker 2: commit This is wrongful Conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: You can listen to this and all the Lava for

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Speaker 2: Good podcasts one week early and ed free by subscribing

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Speaker 2: to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back

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Speaker 2: to Wrongful Conviction. Today's show is going to take you

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Speaker 2: on a journey that you will probably never forget, and

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Speaker 2: not because of anything I'm going to say, but because

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Speaker 2: of the story you're going to hear. And today we

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Speaker 2: have as our very special guest, Clemente aka Shorty Agere

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Speaker 2: from Honduras, right, who was wrongfully convicted in Florida the

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Speaker 2: double murder and who served fourteen years and four months

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Speaker 2: on death row. Shorty, welcome to rofl Conviction.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: As I always say, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm

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Speaker 2: happy you're here. So you know how that and with

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Speaker 2: him is one of his incredible we'll just call it

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Speaker 2: what it is, dream team of lawyers. Maria Deliberado, which

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Speaker 2: is a great name for lawyer, by the way, not

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Speaker 2: for nothing. It's perfect and so Maria, welcome to rofl Conviction.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, happy to be here.

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Speaker 2: So Shorty, you were you were sort of a star

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Speaker 2: in your native country, right, I guess.

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Speaker 3: So you can say that I was very likable, friendly

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Speaker 3: play soccer when I'm singing competition representing in this.

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Speaker 2: I was told it was like the American Idol of Honduras.

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Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I were called championships and it was between the school

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Speaker 3: so it was knowledge, it was dancing, and it was singing.

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Speaker 3: So I performed I and I want the first place?

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Speaker 2: Wow? And how old were you?

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Speaker 3: I was ten years old?

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Speaker 2: Ten years old, so amazing start to a crazy journey.

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Speaker 2: And is it true that as a result of you

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Speaker 2: winning this competition, the gang's kind of left you alone

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Speaker 2: for a while, right, for.

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Speaker 3: A little bit, since Sia was going to school those times,

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Speaker 3: it really wasn't di Stronos. Again, in that period of

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Speaker 3: time when growing up and going to high school, I

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Speaker 3: was well known because I played soccer there. But my

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Speaker 3: problem was I live in a neighborhood with a rival

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Speaker 3: game and I play and go to school with the

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Speaker 3: other gang high power off. So it was very controversial

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Speaker 3: because one would say I belonged to one and the

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Speaker 3: other one would say I belonged to the other one,

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Speaker 3: which it wasn't the case.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, you were able to belong to neither

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Speaker 2: of them because of the status that you enjoyed being

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Speaker 2: sort of this celebrity in your area.

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Speaker 3: Right basically, and because my mother too, she didn't play,

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Speaker 3: and I have this select group of friends. It was

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Speaker 3: seven of us. It didn't attract to us anything about

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Speaker 3: no game at all.

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Speaker 2: But then, as I understand it, when you got a

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Speaker 2: little older the gangs, you were going to join the

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Speaker 2: gang or get killed basically.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, they told me they weren't playing. I was

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Speaker 3: harassed and put guns in a face. I live in

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Speaker 3: a neighborhood full of MS thirteens, and I got to

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Speaker 3: go to school where the eighteens lived. So when I

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Speaker 3: get out of the territory from the thirteens, the eighties

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Speaker 3: grabbed me and made me undress in public to see

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Speaker 3: if I didn't have tattoos belonging to the other game.

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Speaker 2: Ultimately, you decided you had to leave because your life

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Speaker 2: was in danger. Right, But what was it that made

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Speaker 2: you Because that's a big step to leave your country,

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Speaker 2: And it's a very important story to tell right now,

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Speaker 2: especially right with what's going on in this country. Because

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Speaker 2: you had a crazy journey ahead of you. But what

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Speaker 2: was it that happened.

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Speaker 3: Well, it was in two thousand and one January of

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Speaker 3: February around there. I was with my Beyonce to be

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Speaker 3: at a moment and the taxi pull up in front

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Speaker 3: of my house. I'm sitting down outside and they got

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Speaker 3: this raincoach, this long rail black coat and put an

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Speaker 3: a K forty seven and put it in my face.

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Speaker 3: The drivers step down and say, we ain't playing no more. TikTok, TikTok.

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Speaker 3: In that particular moment in time, my mom came out

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Speaker 3: at the door and say what you're doing? I said, Mom,

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Speaker 3: go inside? What good doe? She is out here and

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Speaker 3: I got a gon to my pace and my girlfriend

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Speaker 3: is holding me for their life. I'm like home down.

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Speaker 3: So they left. And then you say, TikTok TikTok mean

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Speaker 3: the clock is running. You need to tie up and

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Speaker 3: join all else. And December, a few months back, they

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Speaker 3: killed one of my best friends because he didn't want

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Speaker 3: to join AH. They killed him on December twenty, two thousand,

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Speaker 3: So it was very very scary. My mother said, you

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Speaker 3: go to your grandma. They sent me to Nicarawa and

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Speaker 3: then Nicaragua is no place to live. It's like it's

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Speaker 3: more poverty. They wasn't Honduras. So in two thousand and two,

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Speaker 3: my sisters came from the United States already with her residency,

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Speaker 3: and we went from there. I need to come to

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Speaker 3: the United States. I cannot live in Nicarada for poverty.

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Speaker 3: I cannot live in my native country because if I

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Speaker 3: don't join again, they will kill me. So the only

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Speaker 3: way I got out of here is go to the

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Speaker 3: United States.

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Speaker 2: Addy, everything you've been through is enough for someone to

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Speaker 2: go through. But this isn't even the beginning. How did

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Speaker 2: you get from Nicaragua all the way to eventually swimming

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Speaker 2: across the Rio Grande.

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Speaker 3: I came to Mexico and I buy some papers and

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Speaker 3: I learned a national anthem of Mexico and history. I

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Speaker 3: lived there for a couple of months, and I flew

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Speaker 3: to Mexico City and there to New Laredo, and from

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Speaker 3: there I went to a bar where when I got in,

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Speaker 3: there as this coyot. Back then it was coyot. You say,

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Speaker 3: it was no cartels and stuff like that, passing people

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Speaker 3: and these coyote is to say, okay, you have sixteen

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Speaker 3: hundred dollars on you. No, But I can call. So

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Speaker 3: we arranged that here is going to pass me through

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Speaker 3: all the way to Laredo, Texas. So he wanted me

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Speaker 3: to swing with this the did they go inside the

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Speaker 3: tire like inner two right, So because he asking me,

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Speaker 3: can you swim? And this moment in time, I feel

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Speaker 3: like I'm the micro fellow the river. I didn't know

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Speaker 3: how big real ground there really was. You see, I'm

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Speaker 3: picturing a river that is just like my grandma.

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Speaker 2: It's like a stream.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's something that you can pass in

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Speaker 3: two minutes. I never thought I'm gonna take me seventeen

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Speaker 3: minutes almost to pass the river across that I almost drowned.

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Speaker 3: And you know, so he told us to take the

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Speaker 3: close off, so we did, but we keep the underwear on.

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Speaker 3: When he turned back and like, what you're doing. This

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Speaker 3: isn't no gay shit, teed you underwere off because when

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Speaker 3: you run, you need to be dry. If you wet,

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Speaker 3: it's gonna it's gonna hurt you and it's gonna slow

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Speaker 3: you down. Believe me, I'm doing this for a long time.

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Speaker 3: So we did. Put it in a plastic bag, put

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Speaker 3: in my mouth, start swimming. We make it to the

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Speaker 3: other side. Somehow, God only he could help me to

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Speaker 3: pass through that river because it was strong, and we'd

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Speaker 3: write off. He say, every paper that you have, every

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Speaker 3: picture that you have, throw it away, every money that

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Speaker 3: you have, throw it away. You cannot bring anything with

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Speaker 3: you to the United States unless it's American dollars. I

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Speaker 3: didn't have any American dollars, so you know, it was

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Speaker 3: fifty pests of Mexico. So I threw it away, and

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Speaker 3: he said, when I tell you so, follow me and run.

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Speaker 3: When we make it to the other side, it was

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Speaker 3: like ninety five people in there, you know, females, men,

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Speaker 3: you own, people from Ecuador, Columbia, Costa Rica, you name it.

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Speaker 3: So we saw immigration car pass by, and then another

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Speaker 3: one and you may say, I ain't waiting here. We're

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Speaker 3: taken off. So I'm taking after him because he got

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Speaker 3: my money. So I'm thinking I cannot let him go

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Speaker 3: away with my money. You know, how am I going

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Speaker 3: to make it to the other side. And this moment

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Speaker 3: in time, I'm in the United States, but I haven't

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Speaker 3: made it to civilization yet. With the off running, I

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Speaker 3: wasn't thirty second and we hear helicopters, police cars, dogs

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Speaker 3: and sirens saying stop, stop, but we're going to shoot.

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Speaker 3: We hear some shots at this moment in time, everybody

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Speaker 3: has take off running two and I'm running right next

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Speaker 3: to this guy. So I'm running and I'm asking him

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Speaker 3: where to where to? He didn't tell me where to

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Speaker 3: because I think I can run him. I really believe

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Speaker 3: I can run him. I'm so desperate to pass back.

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Speaker 3: So it's some shots. I don't think they were shouting

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Speaker 3: at us. I think they were shouting to the airth

220
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Speaker 3: so people get scared or whatever. But that's all I

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Speaker 3: hear in my neighborhood. So they really didn't call me anymore.

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Speaker 3: It was I'm so used to or I was so

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Speaker 3: used to. We make it to the fence, and by

224
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Speaker 3: the time we're going to jump the fence, I used

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Speaker 3: to feel this hand in my hand and say, senor

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Speaker 3: please my son. It was this woman running next to

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Speaker 3: me with the child in her hand. So I grabbed

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Speaker 3: the kid, I give it to the next guy. I

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Speaker 3: push her up, and then I jumped. We went to

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Speaker 3: a house call my sister went to Houston. From Houston,

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Speaker 3: came to my sister house March eighteen, six fifteen in

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Speaker 3: the morning. Three months sixteen day after I was out

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Speaker 3: of my house.

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Speaker 2: Three months and sixteen days starting in Nicarago.

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Speaker 3: Right, started from Honduras January second, all the way to

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Speaker 3: March eighteen, two thousand and three.

237
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Speaker 2: And you ended up in Florida in a little town.

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Speaker 3: Right, yes, and altamund spring.

239
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Speaker 2: So you end up in Florida. You got a job, right?

240
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Speaker 3: Yes. My boy saw me courting lawn and shaving some

241
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Speaker 3: kind of palms, and he led the way I work,

242
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Speaker 3: so he offered me a job as a discwatcher dishes

243
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Speaker 3: for a couple of months. And one day the cooks

244
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Speaker 3: were really busy, so my mom teached me how to cooks.

245
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Speaker 3: And I was six seven years old and everybody was busy,

246
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Speaker 3: and they saw me cooking for me. So my boss

247
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Speaker 3: saw and say, oh, okay, so you can cut, you

248
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 3: can prep. I think you're going to be good in

249
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,360
Speaker 3: the prep line. So they may may do salads, bread

250
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Speaker 3: and prep everything for the line.

251
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Speaker 2: So now you're moving up in the world a little

252
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Speaker 2: bit at a time, right, going from the cutting trees

253
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Speaker 2: or whatever to the to the kitchen and now doing

254
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Speaker 2: the prep work and starting to use your skills that

255
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,400
Speaker 2: you had developed as a cook. So things are looking

256
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,040
Speaker 2: up right right? And where were you living?

257
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,840
Speaker 3: I moved from my sister and Altimo Sprinto Longwood in

258
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,600
Speaker 3: the trailer park in forty four.

259
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Speaker 2: And the trailer park is a very important role in

260
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Speaker 2: the story. This is where this shit really hits the fan. Maria,

261
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Speaker 2: do you want to sort of set the table here,

262
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Speaker 2: because you've worked on this case for ten years, you

263
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,600
Speaker 2: know every single detail of what happened.

264
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Speaker 4: Absolutely.

265
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Speaker 5: I mean I don't even really know where to start at.

266
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Speaker 5: I mean I used to be a prosecutor actually before

267
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,680
Speaker 5: I did criminal defense thirteen years ago. And so from

268
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,200
Speaker 5: that perspective getting this case, the fact that they saw

269
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,480
Speaker 5: him as the suspect shut their eyes to any possible

270
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,200
Speaker 5: other alternative is to me the biggest travesty here. But

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Speaker 5: I'll sort of set the stage, I guess in the

272
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,360
Speaker 5: sense of he was living next door to the victims.

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Speaker 4: It was a.

274
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Speaker 5: Trailer part on Vagabond Way, and that was the name

275
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,880
Speaker 5: of the street, and he had socialized with them on

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Speaker 5: more than one occasion.

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Speaker 2: And this was a woman, her mother and her daughter

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Speaker 2: living together in this trailer.

279
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Speaker 5: That's correct, Yes, And Clemente lived with two other men

280
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Speaker 5: about his age. They were both cousins, and so they

281
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,200
Speaker 5: were about the same age as the daughter and her

282
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,000
Speaker 5: brother also lived in the trailer for periods of time,

283
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,160
Speaker 5: so sort of all people of his age Clemente at

284
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,880
Speaker 5: the time. Obviously you can hear him today speaking English.

285
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,600
Speaker 5: He didn't speak any English back then. He taught himself

286
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,600
Speaker 5: English in prison, which is a great story that he

287
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,520
Speaker 5: does need to tell at some point point. How he

288
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 5: taught himself English. It's one of my favorite stories that

289
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,600
Speaker 5: he tells. But he didn't speak any English then, but

290
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,960
Speaker 5: you know, he was able to communicate enough with them.

291
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,600
Speaker 5: They shared parties, they shared drinks, sort of a friendly

292
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:17,440
Speaker 5: neighborhood scene. The day that he was arrested, the mother

293
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,280
Speaker 5: and grandmother were killed, and the morning that their bodies

294
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,960
Speaker 5: were discovered, Monday had gone there in the morning, as

295
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,000
Speaker 5: he often did. He had been out with friends the

296
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 5: night before. They always were known to have lots and

297
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,240
Speaker 5: lots of beer. If you look at the crime scene video,

298
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,120
Speaker 5: I mean there was just thousands and thousands of cans.

299
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Speaker 5: And in Florida, alcohol is sold in all the grocery stores,

300
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,560
Speaker 5: but not until certain hours. So the grocery store wasn't

301
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,200
Speaker 5: open yet, and Clemente was a you know, in his

302
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,600
Speaker 5: early twenties. We can all remember what it's like to

303
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,760
Speaker 5: be able to party all night in your early twenties.

304
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 5: And he had finished a hard day's work and was

305
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:53,680
Speaker 5: letting this with some friends and wanted to keep the

306
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,480
Speaker 5: party going. So he had just gone over there for

307
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,160
Speaker 5: a beer, as he had done many times. They had

308
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Speaker 5: an open door policy.

309
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Speaker 2: Let's turn over to you a climate day, because this

310
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,880
Speaker 2: is such a nightmare. I mean, I've told your story

311
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,880
Speaker 2: so many times, but you actually lived it. So can

312
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,280
Speaker 2: you take us back to that day.

313
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Speaker 3: I've been drinking all day, I'm going to go home,

314
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,080
Speaker 3: and I went home, but I want another beer, so

315
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,160
Speaker 3: I went inside and I didn't find it. So it's

316
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,080
Speaker 3: why I wait until daytime to go to the next

317
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,040
Speaker 3: door and ask for a beer, like I had done

318
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:22,399
Speaker 3: dozens of time before.

319
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Speaker 2: What time was it when you went over to It.

320
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 3: Was like six something in the morning.

321
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Speaker 2: Six in the morning, right, And so you went over

322
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,760
Speaker 2: there as you've done so many times, to scoop up

323
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,640
Speaker 2: a few more beers whatever? Right, What did you encounter

324
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:34,520
Speaker 2: when you got there?

325
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,160
Speaker 3: I turn knocked the door, but when I touch it,

326
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,320
Speaker 3: push open, But it didn't open all the way. It's

327
00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,640
Speaker 3: strange because I've been in the house. I mean, if

328
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,800
Speaker 3: I want to give you a number over seven hundred times, right,

329
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,119
Speaker 3: So I know that door opened all the way and

330
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,359
Speaker 3: this time didn't. So I push it and it it

331
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,080
Speaker 3: didn't go further than was So I look, it was

332
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 3: like a little window, and I saw Cherry Williams there body.

333
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:10,880
Speaker 2: This was the mom.

334
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 3: That was the mother, Yes, Samantha's mother, yes, and Carol daughter.

335
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,720
Speaker 2: So you saw the body like, so that's why they

336
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,639
Speaker 2: couldn't open the door because the body was blocking.

337
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,040
Speaker 3: But it was blocking it, yes, sir.

338
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,919
Speaker 2: Right, and so now you see the body. But is

339
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 2: there blood everywhere? Or what's the first thing that you.

340
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 3: Her body is there? I just jump immediately inside without

341
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,480
Speaker 3: thinking right, and she was too close to by the door,

342
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,440
Speaker 3: so I had to close the door and touch her

343
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,560
Speaker 3: dress looking for a pose. So I said, maybe I'm

344
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,640
Speaker 3: too drunk that I don't feel it. So I picked

345
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,359
Speaker 3: her up and put it on the top of my

346
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,439
Speaker 3: legs into her neck because in the position she was,

347
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 3: I couldn't touch her neck. And a moment and asked

348
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,760
Speaker 3: her to wake up, and she didn't.

349
00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 2: At this point, did you see there was blood and

350
00:18:59,359 --> 00:18:59,680
Speaker 2: there was.

351
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 3: Yes everywhere, and now it was like a horror movie scene.

352
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 3: So I'm asking somebody here, and I find the grandmother

353
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,640
Speaker 3: of her wheelchair almost under the table, so I want

354
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 3: to touch her too. She was dead, and I heard

355
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 3: this noise and I'm asking somebody here. And with that,

356
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,240
Speaker 3: I walked in the house and my footprints were there,

357
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,439
Speaker 3: and it was it was crazy.

358
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 2: You found the murder weapon.

359
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,679
Speaker 3: Right, I did? I did. I saw it when I

360
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,879
Speaker 3: saw the first victim. It was on the top of

361
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 3: a beer box, but I didn't touch it. Then I

362
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 3: touched until I heard the noise. Later I found out

363
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 3: it was a dog there. But I know, I'm crazy.

364
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,639
Speaker 3: I heard the noise. So anyway, I went and grabbed

365
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 3: a knife like like a domas and uh, asking somebody here,

366
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 3: And I walked and I went to someon a bedroom

367
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,240
Speaker 3: and everything was everywhere in the house. Chair will flowed down,

368
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,960
Speaker 3: clothes was everywhere. Everything was like a like a Hura

369
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,159
Speaker 3: camp passed by there and then I walked to the

370
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 3: next room, but I think went in there because I

371
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 3: found Cherry already. So I said, oh my god, what

372
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 3: am I going to do? So I took off running.

373
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 3: They got running again, This.

374
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,640
Speaker 2: Is a really bad scenario on every level. I mean,

375
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,120
Speaker 2: you've got now the murder victim's blood on you, right,

376
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 2: because you've been trying to help them, trying to check

377
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 2: and see if they're alive. Obviously that was hopeless because

378
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,920
Speaker 2: they were dead. You've got your fingerprints on the knife

379
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 2: right because you picked up the pick up. Yet, I mean,

380
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,399
Speaker 2: it couldn't be any worse. You can't make it harder

381
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 2: for your lawyers, right in this case. I mean, this

382
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,879
Speaker 2: is circumstantial levelis it doesn't get much worse than that.

383
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,160
Speaker 2: And I'm sure when it eventually came to your arrest,

384
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 2: they must have looked at it like, okay, well, so

385
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 2: you don't really have to work too hard on this one.

386
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,239
Speaker 2: We got this guy dead to rights, Well what did

387
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 2: you do? So? Now you ran? Where did you run too?

388
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 3: I ran to my house. I'm debating. Am I going

389
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 3: to call the policeman? And the person I'm debating is

390
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 3: I know the police officer arrest you, they call immigration

391
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:44,160
Speaker 3: on you. It's a fact, So they did. I mean,

392
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 3: and now I'm going to be deported for it, So

393
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 3: I know I didn't do nothing wrong, even though everything

394
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 3: sounds wrong so far. I didn't kill nobody anyway. So

395
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 3: I took a shower and I'm like, I can't copolice.

396
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 3: I decided against it because I don't want to be deported.

397
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 3: It was my fear. It was my fear, and legitn't

398
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 3: of fear because I'm running from my life. You know,

399
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,919
Speaker 3: I'm running for my life. I don't want to be

400
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 3: killed in my country because I don't want to be

401
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 3: a criminal.

402
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 2: Right, What an irony? Right? You were running away from

403
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 2: the criminals to come here to start a better life,

404
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 2: and now now you're going to be accused of a

405
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: crime that you didn't commit in the first place. And

406
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 2: the options are all bad. Right, You're either going to

407
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 2: go and get deported or you're going to get convicted.

408
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 2: I mean you must have known as well that things

409
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: were looking pretty bad. If you call the police, the

410
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 2: first person they're going to suspect. We know that in general,

411
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 2: in many cases anyway, the person who finds the body

412
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 2: is the person they usually.

413
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 3: But honestly speaking, I wasn't afraid they are going to

414
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 3: be accused of the murder. I really wasn't, because I

415
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 3: know I didn't do it. I was more afraid than if.

416
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 2: So what happened for you, sure.

417
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 4: So, I mean he can tell it as well.

418
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 5: But the police eventually came because Samantha's boyfriend, which we'll

419
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 5: later get to in more detail, actually was told by

420
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 5: Samantha to come to the house that morning to get

421
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 5: her laundry out of the dryer was the purported reason,

422
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 5: or out of the washer, and to check on her

423
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 5: mom and grandmother because she had a bad feeling. So

424
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 5: he comes to the scene about nine am. He finds

425
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 5: about easy of course, calls nine one one, and then

426
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 5: the police come. So by a couple of hours go by,

427
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 5: the police are there and you know, normally they're knocking

428
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 5: the canvassing the neighborhood. So they knock on the door

429
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 5: of Clemente's trailer, and first knock on the door, you know,

430
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 5: they didn't. They just said we don't.

431
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 3: Know anything, We don't know anything.

432
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 5: And the police that knocked on his door, nobody spoke Spanish,

433
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 5: so they were all English speaking, and everybody in Clemente's

434
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 5: house then only spoke Spanish, so there's also a language barrier.

435
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 5: And then later in the day, I mean, Clemente can

436
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 5: tell you why he felt compelled to come forward and

437
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 5: then sort of have that back out on him. When

438
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 5: he came forward and tried to tell what happened as

439
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 5: you said, they immediately were like, great, we've got our guy,

440
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 5: and they just started accusing him of murder pretty immediately

441
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 5: and threatening him. There was a female Spanish speaking detective

442
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 5: finally who came unseen, and Colemente wanted to talk to her.

443
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 5: He felt like he could trust her with the full story.

444
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 3: I came forward. I say, this is the best country

445
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 3: in the world. I'm telling the truth. But they're going

446
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 3: to investigate and they're going to find out the truth eventually.

447
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 3: So I went and I say I found in it,

448
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,719
Speaker 3: you know. And soon I say that I need to

449
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 3: speak with somebody who Spanish, and it was two people

450
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 3: behind her telling her get him getting When I asked

451
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 3: her to talk alone, the investigator told me if you

452
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,959
Speaker 3: touch her, I'm fuck you up. I don't know what

453
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 3: that world mean, but the face that he put in

454
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 3: my face told me everything I need to know. And

455
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 3: I'm looking crazy and I say, no, no, I'm not

456
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 3: going to do anything.

457
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 5: It also probably should be noted Clemente got his shorty

458
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 5: nickname because he's four foot eleven, so not exactly you're threatening,

459
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 5: imposing criminal, but.

460
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 2: Also you have such a sort of a sweet gentle face.

461
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: I mean like if I was three feet eleven, I

462
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 2: wouldn't be scared of you, you know what I mean?

463
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 3: Like right, So they bring me disinvestigator, and soon I

464
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 3: tell him about the first victim. He started kissing me

465
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 3: or rape. I know I didn't break nobody. I know

466
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 3: I didn't kill nobody. So I told him, well, he

467
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 3: mentioned something like, I don't need you to finish or

468
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 3: have an orgasm in her. I just need you to

469
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 3: penetrate her. And I got your DNA. I said, go

470
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 3: for it. They my DNA because I know I'm mean acent.

471
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 3: But there was a swap there. They took your fingernails,

472
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 3: then my pingernails, and and she went to dig. I

473
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 3: believe now nobody can take me out of these. She

474
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 3: was trying to cut me.

475
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 5: When they took his fingertiped swabs they do the scrapings,

476
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 5: they like, jammed it under his nail.

477
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 3: She went way too deep. So you can see it's

478
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 3: like you have to describe a little bit. You don't

479
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 3: have to go to deep. They always dishort always because

480
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 3: I work in the kitchen, so you know, I'm always

481
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 3: with sure nails and sure hair.

482
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: Do you think they were trying to cut him?

483
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 5: Because I think the perception that he tells the story

484
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 5: was there was a lot of hatred and animosity from

485
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 5: the police from the beginning towards him because he was

486
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 5: not in this country legally, because they believed that he

487
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 5: murdered these two women, one of them in a wheelchair,

488
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 5: and so they just treated him.

489
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 4: You know, this whole theme of the.

490
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 5: Conference that we're attending is presumption of innocence, and there

491
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 5: was none of that for Clemente.

492
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: Right, And just for context, we're recording in a conference

493
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: room in Atlanta where the Innocent Network conference is being held.

494
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 2: So there's an amazing, amazing group here of over two

495
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 2: hundred exgneries and hundreds of lawyers and social workers and activists,

496
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 2: and it's an amazing, amazing place to be. And as

497
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 2: you said, the theme is presumption of innocence, which is well,

498
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: it's part of American jurisprudence. It's in the constitution, right,

499
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 2: but it doesn't actually work the way it's supposed to,

500
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: and certainly didn't in this case. So they interrogate you. You

501
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: didn't have a lawyer with you at the time.

502
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 3: At that moment in time, I say, and your lawyer right,

503
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 3: do nothing.

504
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a common thing. I mean to be surprised.

505
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: How many people, even people who grew up in America

506
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: who maybe have higher education degrees or whatever, they think

507
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: the same thing. Well, if I just go in and

508
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 2: tell the truth. But when you get an adversarial situation

509
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 2: like you were in, it changes very quickly and people

510
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: are not expecting it. You had no reason to expect it.

511
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: But that's exactly what happened. And so at what point

512
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: did you become aware that you are now looking at

513
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 2: the potential of being well arrested, tried, and convicted. I

514
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 2: will even sentence to death.

515
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 3: A wig later, they come and take my fingerprints and

516
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: they told me they found my left pump print in

517
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 3: the knife, which I say, it is impossible, and say,

518
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 3: how come you touched the knife? Yeah, but I'm right handed.

519
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 3: I'm not going to grab a knife with my left hand.

520
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 3: So they charmed me with murder and they told me

521
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 3: we're going to be asking for the death penalty. As

522
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 3: the state asked for the dead penalty. Send you to

523
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 3: death row.

524
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: You've now been arrested you're locked up in the local jail.

525
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 3: I assume, yeah, Seminal County.

526
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 2: How long did it take from that point to go

527
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 2: to trial?

528
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 3: Twenty two months?

529
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: So you're in jail for twenty two months, Yes.

530
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 3: Sir, Seminal County jail and sam for got to be

531
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 3: one of the most disgusting places to be at. The

532
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 3: food is terrible because it's private, you see, Seminal County

533
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 3: is private, so they run it the way they want to.

534
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 3: They beat you up, They put you in a place

535
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 3: where it's the camera. They beat you up in anything and.

536
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: All that happened to you what happened to me? Because

537
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,239
Speaker 2: you were the most notorious guy in the jail at

538
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: this time, right, your name is in the paper. You're

539
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: accused of a double murder or an illegal immigrant. You've

540
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: got the whole, you.

541
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 3: Know, because of this brown little guy who apparently killed

542
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 3: two white people. By the time I got taken the trial,

543
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 3: I was found guilty in one hour fifteen minutes maybe

544
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 3: the jury the jury user.

545
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: The jury was out for an hour and fifteen minutes.

546
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 3: The trial last maybe four or five days, I mean

547
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 3: the criminal trial. The sentence in like another four days

548
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 3: aroun there.

549
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 5: In Florida, the penalty phase in the guilt phase or separate.

550
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's two different trial basically.

551
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 2: So who represented you a trial?

552
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 3: The public Defender's officer Seminal County.

553
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 2: And did they mount any kind of a defense?

554
00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 3: No, whats whoever?

555
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: No defense?

556
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 3: They did present a case on my he did it

557
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 3: because he drunk. He did it because he did he didn't.

558
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't do nothing. You're trying to kill

559
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 3: me for something I didn't do. I didn't do nothing.

560
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 3: I am not going to take this to me. It

561
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 3: was no conceivable that I am going to accept you

562
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 3: calling me a killer. And I'm there and I'm not

563
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 3: going to stand up and call you a liar, even

564
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 3: you my attorney. I don't care. I didn't do nothing,

565
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 3: So you don't believe me after you he never believed me.

566
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: Man.

567
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 3: He didn't talk to nobody. I wasn't about until three

568
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 3: third in the morning with like thirty two people. He

569
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 3: didn't talk to no one of them.

570
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 6: What you were wiping, I wasn't a bar before we

571
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 6: went to my friend's house, the three todd in the morning,

572
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 6: because back then they were saying I did a crying

573
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 6: three something in the morning.

574
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 3: You see, then they changed it to early in the morning.

575
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 5: They never really were able to pin down the time

576
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 5: of death because they were relying on Samantha and Mark

577
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 5: Benzan who said they saw the last alive at about

578
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 5: eleven thirty.

579
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 4: And then they were found by Mark VanZant at nine.

580
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 5: So the state was never able to really pin down

581
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 5: the time of death, so they just fit it to

582
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 5: the time when Clemente had said he went in there,

583
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 5: but he did have a solid alibi until three thirty

584
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 5: in the morning. He was at a local bar. It

585
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 5: was actually me who went into that bar for the

586
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 5: first time in probably two thousand and ten or so.

587
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just inmfathomable to me that as a

588
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 5: criminal defense attorney, your client tells you where they were,

589
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 5: you know, in the preceding twenty four hours, and you

590
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 5: don't even walk into the bar to see, like, hey,

591
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 5: was he here? Is there anybody that we can talk to?

592
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 5: And I mean when I went in in twenty ten,

593
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,239
Speaker 5: so this is mindjew six years after the murder, it

594
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 5: was a Saturday morning. I went in with my investigator

595
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 5: and kind of like sat down at the bars, maybe

596
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 5: eleven thirty.

597
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 4: We didn't tell anyone we were coming.

598
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 5: We just went and the bartenders like, you know, can

599
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 5: I help you? And we said, you know, we're looking

600
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 5: for Bob Buntruck, who was the owner. She said, oh,

601
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 5: he's not here, you know, can I help you? I said, well,

602
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 5: I represent Clemente Gary And it was like time stood still.

603
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 5: I thought she was going to drop the glass she

604
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 5: was holding. She was like, thank God, somebody is finally

605
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 5: helping him. I know he didn't do it. And to

606
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 5: walk into a place six years later and get that

607
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 5: kind of reaction for me as the lawyer handling his

608
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 5: case was just stunning. And she gave us a treasure

609
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 5: troes of information that actually led us to who ultimately

610
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 5: is the actual piller in this case.

611
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: So yeah, and that's I'm getting the chill just thinking

612
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: about that. What a moment. It's very cinematic the way

613
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: you described it, But yeah, I mean it must have

614
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 2: really weighed on the people who knew you and knew

615
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: that you didn't do it. To be walking around with

616
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: that knowledge and yet knowing that you're on death row.

617
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 4: And felt helpless.

618
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 5: You know, there was no avenue for them because there

619
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 5: was no investigation by either the prosecution or the defense.

620
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 5: I mean, it was just a complete collapse of the

621
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 5: adversarial system.

622
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 3: This particular lady who talked to her name is Jamie,

623
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: and she was the street almost in front of Samantha's

624
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 3: house until fight something in the morning, and I haven't

625
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 3: make it home yet.

626
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, so she actually ended up alibying him until you know,

627
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 5: five point thirty or and sort of aliby in the

628
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 5: house until then.

629
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 3: Because I haven't made home yet. She was from Peter.

630
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 3: There's some peace, so Peter used to leave him from

631
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 3: a Samantha Williams house, so she stayed there with him,

632
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 3: having a couple of dreams that night. And I'm still

633
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 3: on my friend's house with all the two friends. I

634
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 3: haven't make it home yet.

635
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 5: But the state just fit their time of death with

636
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 5: the time he said he went in the house. Once

637
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,479
Speaker 5: he said he went in the house, they just had

638
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 5: tunnel vision and that was it. They just fit all

639
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 5: their evidence to comply with that.

640
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: Wow. And we're going to get into Samantha in a minute,

641
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: because this is one of those cases, and there's probably

642
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: a dozen, maybe that we profiled on the show, where

643
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: all the signs were there that would have led even

644
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: a cursory investigation to focus on someone else, but it

645
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 2: was not necessary because they already had somebody that they wanted.

646
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: They had somebody who was an easy target, and also

647
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: somebody that apparently they didn't like, because they didn't like

648
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 2: the fact that you were here illegally or whatever their

649
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: personal biases were, you know. And it's worth noting too

650
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: that in a case like this, because it's such a

651
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: terrible violent crime, the idea that they would allow the

652
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 2: perpetrator to remain free just so they can close the

653
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 2: case and you put your life, you know, which they

654
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 2: viewed as expendable, apparently, it's really another very serious thing

655
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 2: to look at, right, I mean, the people in that

656
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 2: community were in danger. They still are, right, And let's

657
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: talk about that. Because Samantha, the daughter whose mother and

658
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: grandmother were killed, she had been in and out of

659
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 2: mental institutions dozens of times, right.

660
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,439
Speaker 5: In the upwards of like sixty I think she said

661
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 5: at the post conviction hearing she was Baker acted, which

662
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 5: is Florida's involuntary mental health commitment sixty times.

663
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: Six is zero, that is, folks, right, So I mean

664
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: that's a full on revolving door in and out of

665
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 2: mental institution. And the fact is that, as I understand it,

666
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: she actually vocalized her plan when she was in the

667
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 2: mental institution. She said that she was going to do

668
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: this right in front of other people. Yeah, there was

669
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 2: a she announced.

670
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 5: It a couple of years before the murders on one

671
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 5: of her Baker acts. She had to be restrained because

672
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 5: she was so violent in the hospital, kicking, spitting, throwing things,

673
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 5: And she said, with her mother right next to her,

674
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 5: I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I

675
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 5: get out.

676
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I

677
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: get out. And I guess she should have taken her

678
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 2: a little more seriously, and then we wouldn't be sitting

679
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: and having this conversation at all. And in fact, we

680
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: know now too that her biological evidence was found all

681
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 2: over the clime scene right, not just because she lived

682
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: there part time, but because she had actually done these

683
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: gruesome deeds and then left her own blood for.

684
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 5: Some eight separate blod stands within inches of the victim's

685
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 5: blood throughout the trailer.

686
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 4: None of Clement's DNA.

687
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 3: So I always thought I stand up in court before

688
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 3: my trial and asked for the DNA to be testing.

689
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 3: They just told me, I need to be a specific.

690
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 3: I don't know what is specific me. I thought, it's

691
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 3: a crime scene. You're gonna investigate, You're gonna test everything,

692
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 3: because this is when I interact with the Innery Project.

693
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 3: And they asked me, what do you want us to tell?

694
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 3: I say everything, everything, her nails, the cheats, everything. So

695
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 3: it was one hundred and ninety seven pieces of evidence

696
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 3: with blood which nobody tells ever so pictured yourself accused

697
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 3: of a crime, which have so many pieces the evidence

698
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 3: to be testing for DNA neither to stay or you

699
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 3: attorney tested, and you asked the George vocally, please made

700
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 3: my attorney tested, and he said, you need to be specific.

701
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 3: Why would I be specific? Test everything? Right? I want

702
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 3: to prove that I didn't do it. Maybe the killer

703
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 3: left something behind. It was always always my argument, you

704
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 3: are not going to find my blood there because I

705
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 3: didn't do it. If you test them, maybe you find

706
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 3: something else. Right. The accusume or rape, the accuracyme of killing,

707
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 3: the acacimea, all of these things. I'm for eleven. If

708
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 3: I stab somebody one hundred and twenty nine times, I

709
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: ain't going to have this splatter blood all over. No

710
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: one drop or splatter blooding me. Everything is contact. Like

711
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 3: I say, it was my footprint on a round chair

712
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 3: that are fall down. A mirror was done and it's

713
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 3: not a footprint under it, it's on top of it.

714
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 3: They found her d NA that mirror, she saying trout

715
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 3: that mirror was on the wall when she left. But

716
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 3: they found her blo ain't her fingerprint? No mind, so

717
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 3: they didn't. There's nothing. So here I go to death

718
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 3: row no English beat up. They batting me up all

719
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 3: the time because I don't speak English, and that row

720
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 3: ye no no. The emails the guards because they thought

721
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 3: I was acting, so they thought it by beating me up,

722
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 3: I will speak English. So I started taking newspapers from

723
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 3: guard which to start reading. I don't know what I

724
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 3: was reading. And then I asked for a Bible because

725
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 3: I got a Bible in Spanish, you see. So I say,

726
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 3: maybe with a Bible in English I can translate, it's

727
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 3: going to be more easier for me. And they sent

728
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 3: me a Penhouse letter Book, number four, four hundred and

729
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 3: seventeen pages, Penhouse letter Book. It's a foot book, you see.

730
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 3: I didn't know. I didn't know what it was.

731
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 7: The other inmates so we asked for a Bible because

732
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 7: you want to learn English, and the other inmates, I

733
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 7: guess thought it would be funny or I'm not really sure,

734
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 7: but that's how that's what.

735
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 3: They give him Penhouse Letter Book number four. So that's

736
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 3: what I got. That's what I started reading. So I

737
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 3: stay at night when it was quiet and there was

738
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 3: no light. That's why my eyes I all missed up.

739
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 3: Now and I gave the light from the hallway, and

740
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 3: I got a bat up dictionary in Spanish and English,

741
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 3: and I will go there and I will go with

742
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 3: the letters. I read it seventeen times, the book, the

743
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:54,479
Speaker 3: fuck book.

744
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 4: Yes, so I taught himself English.

745
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 2: That's amazing.

746
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 3: But that seventeen time, I'm start getting a roused. And

747
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 3: I got so happy. Not because I got a roused,

748
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 3: you know. I got so happy because I got roused

749
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 3: because I wasn't understanding what I was reading. But now

750
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 3: I want to prove to my mother that I didn't

751
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 3: do this. And I started writing letters. One hundred and

752
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 3: seventy five letters I wrote. I roll oprah. I said,

753
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 3: I don't know who you are, but they telling me

754
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 3: you they could not television. Maybe you know somebody who

755
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 3: can teach this evidence. They turney came me for something

756
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 3: I didn't do, and next to it, I would put

757
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 3: a letter in Spanish too, so it was somebody who

758
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 3: speaks Spanish in my English that bad. They can translate it.

759
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 3: One answer me bad. Innocent Projic of New York in

760
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 3: Amerson from the Innocent Projects. And I got to meet Maria.

761
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 3: Remember I just have a polic defender. I didn't never

762
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 3: have a private attorney. I don't know what it's like.

763
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 3: And she told me she would never lie to me,

764
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 3: and that she will work hard, and that she thought

765
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 3: it was something wrong in my case. They got some

766
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 3: people were working and they would push for DNA. They

767
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 3: allow us to test eighty two pieces of evidence.

768
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 5: First, the first time there was two drops of Samantha's blood,

769
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 5: and then we asked for the rest. Of course, the

770
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 5: state agreed to blood the first time, and then once

771
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 5: Samantha's blood came back and they had evidence of her

772
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 5: confessions which they withheld from us for anywhere from around

773
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 5: two years or maybe longer, hard to say, they objected

774
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 5: to any more testing. After two drops of her blood

775
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 5: come back. She's admitted that she's killed her family. They

776
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 5: object to more DNA testing, but it was granted, thankfully.

777
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 2: And she confessed on a number of occasions to a

778
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: number of different people.

779
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's somewhere around seven or nine. But

780
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 5: this first one was a Baker act, one of her

781
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 5: many Baker acts, where she had tried to burn the

782
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 5: trailer down and sort of set herself on fire. She

783
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 5: was like, set some bedding on fire, and she told

784
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 5: a neighbor who told the police that demons in her

785
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 5: head had made her kill her family.

786
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 3: She told her best friend Nikki, and two separate occasions

787
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 3: did she her mother When Nikki asked her, what did

788
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 3: you do? I heard them doing any stubbing motion to

789
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,479
Speaker 3: her chest. Had grab my guy's tab in the chest.

790
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: According to the medical coach Saminar So, I never see

791
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 3: this woman named Nikki in my life. I don't know her.

792
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 3: She came forward to stay attorney and they send her back.

793
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 2: So they didn't want to hear it.

794
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 3: Oh, they don't want to hear it. They say they

795
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 3: got the killer. But she contacted my defense attorneys and

796
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 3: told them too. She testified it first conviction.

797
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: Here. Kurus to her for not giving up right because

798
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 2: it would have been pretty easy for her to go

799
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: to the police and say I want to talk and

800
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:56,399
Speaker 2: they say no, and then she goes, well, I try

801
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 2: my best. What am I going to do? Right? But

802
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: she actually took it to the next level type of view.

803
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

804
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 4: And we had been piecing it together who she was

805
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 4: based on the.

806
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 5: Police report because we could tell that's who the person

807
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 5: was in the statement that Samantha had made.

808
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 4: The statement to.

809
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: So now they start trying to backpedal, right now, all

810
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: of a sudden, they're like, wait a minute, We're going

811
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: to stop cooperating and stop giving you access. Yes, And

812
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: that's when the dream team really kicks into gear, right.

813
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 2: I mean you had not just you and Nina, but

814
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 2: Josh Dubin. Yeah.

815
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 4: So that was at the retrial.

816
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 5: So the post conviction hearing was done just by myself

817
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 5: and Marie Palmer, who's my law partner now in our

818
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 5: investigator Polly, and then Nina came down for the first

819
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 5: two days of the evidentiary hearing in twenty thirteen. That

820
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 5: was a two week hearing that we put on tons

821
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 5: and tons of witnesses, all the DNA, all of the confessions,

822
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 5: and then we lost, of course at the circuit court

823
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 5: level and.

824
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 4: We knew that.

825
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 5: We always had the idea of getting a bigger team

826
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 5: on this case. You know, it's one thing when lawyers

827
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 5: from my office at the time, you know, stand up

828
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 5: before the flour Spring Court and say this is a travesty.

829
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 5: It's quite another when we get the Innocence Project and

830
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 5: private law firms and you know, people really fighting for this.

831
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 4: It makes a difference.

832
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 5: So that was always our plan, and Nina was of

833
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 5: course amazing and instrumental in getting us help. So we

834
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 5: got lawyers from Alabama to do the appeal with us.

835
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 4: They did the appeal at the flour Spring Court.

836
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 5: We all worked on it and we got the reversal

837
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 5: in twenty sixteen, and that's when sort of the trial

838
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 5: team really came back together. And so my role sort

839
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 5: of formally ended in twenty sixteen, and then I just

840
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 5: consulted with the trial team and talked to Clemente every

841
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 5: Sunday for two and a half years while he was

842
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 5: waiting his retrial.

843
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 3: Well, let me tell you something. We have a DNA

844
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 3: a confession for the perpetrator who DNA was found in

845
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 3: the crime seat, which she said she wasn't there. Red

846
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 3: Fresh Red Bright and then we have a judge. We

847
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 3: have a judge who keep denying. Now, we don't understand

848
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 3: what these judge followed the law. Right later we find

849
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 3: out that she's got detagenda against me, using my case

850
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 3: to get a promotion. She had stayed a sixty seventh

851
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 3: page drueling against me and brag about it.

852
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 2: So she was trying to get elevated.

853
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and used his case, used my case about it.

854
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

855
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 5: She eventually was recused and did not preside over the retrial.

856
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 5: That's when Josh came on, Josh Stephens. He did the

857
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 5: jury selection and in front of her first time in

858
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 5: February of twenty eighteen, and her complete lack of knowledge

859
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 5: of the law. I mean, Josh just pointed it out

860
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 5: and we were able to recuse her from the case.

861
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,720
Speaker 5: And then the trial started in October of twenty eighteen

862
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 5: with quite a team Josh picking the jury, Maury Parmer,

863
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 5: who's my law partner, Lindsay Bonie, Dylan Blackbrooks, Proctor, I mean,

864
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 5: just Jeff Horowitz. There was like, at one point Clemente said,

865
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 5: what did you tell them?

866
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 3: Oh man? It was it was too many or them right,

867
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 3: And I'm like heyo, y'all making me look bad right here.

868
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 3: Some of you need to go see down the bag,

869
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 3: you know, I.

870
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 4: Said some of them on the prosecution to make sure.

871
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 3: That it was too many to me, I don't want

872
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 3: to look like, why this guy got so many Lowyoh

873
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 3: he got money. He might have done it, so I

874
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 3: don't want them to think like that. Ever.

875
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: Wow, you went from having too little help to us.

876
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 2: Well you were thinking too much help. But it was

877
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 2: not the case. And Josh is an amazing guy. I mean,

878
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 2: it's funny because Nina originally introduced us I don't know

879
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: whatever a couple three years ago, and he says to me,

880
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 2: you know, I'm a church selection expert. I go, yeah,

881
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: he goes, I can look in your eyes and see

882
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: your soul. I was like, so, you know, he's a guy.

883
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 2: Here's that guy. He's amazing. Yeah. And he was keeping

884
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: me posted. Then when he was down there at Florida, Argua,

885
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 2: we were talking and he was giving me the updates

886
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: and he was really Yeah. It was a very intense time,

887
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: even for me watching from the sidelines from a thousand

888
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 2: miles away. So let's get to the good stuff.

889
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 3: Okay.

890
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 2: So then finally your conviction is overturned.

891
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 3: On now October twenty seven.

892
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 2: But they kept you on death row anyway.

893
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 3: Until and then back to the county, back to the

894
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 3: county jail.

895
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: Right. And it's amazing because you know, I talked to

896
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 2: give speeches a lot, and I talked to civilians all

897
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 2: the time about this work and about cases like yours,

898
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 2: and almost everyone says, but I understand, the convictions overturn,

899
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 2: you go home.

900
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 3: That's not the way it works.

901
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 2: I mean, sometimes it is, but in your case it

902
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: certainly was not. And the conviction was overturned. They're going

903
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 2: to retry you because they didn't like losing.

904
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 3: Right. Oh, immediately they say same day, yeah, same day,

905
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 3: they say, we are going to retry the case.

906
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 5: I mean, this was a unanimous reversal from the floor

907
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 5: Spreme Court in which the opinion said, no longer is

908
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 5: a Gary, the creepy, shadowy figure who lived next door.

909
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 5: He's escapegoat for her crimes. That's seven justices of the

910
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 5: Flora Supreme Court calling Samantha the murderer and they're still

911
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 5: trying him again.

912
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, yeah, I mean this is seven justices in

913
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 2: the Deep South. Yeah, with a guy who doesn't have

914
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 2: the same skin color as they do. I mean they're

915
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 2: saying and in the strongest possible way, that this is

916
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 2: not your crime, that this is a huge mistake. You

917
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:11,720
Speaker 2: heard those words. How did that feel?

918
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,359
Speaker 5: So the prison doesn't allow They require twenty four hour

919
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,800
Speaker 5: notice for calls, so we couldn't even tell him until

920
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 5: the next day. So opinions come out every Thursday. At

921
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 5: eleven opinion came out. We knew we couldn't get a

922
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 5: call to him, but we also knew it was going

923
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 5: to be on the news, and so I know, I

924
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 5: didn't interview. I think Lindsay did too, And I was like, well, Monday.

925
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 7: If you're listening, congratulations, because we were going to get

926
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 7: to talk to him until the next day.

927
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 4: But guys on the road heard it.

928
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 3: They told me, yeah, hey, Tody, they're banging on the

929
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 3: bars and what I think you want to trial? I said,

930
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 3: hold on, man, don't play like that because it's too

931
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 3: it's too soon. It was six months, twenty days, so

932
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 3: they take twenty two months in answering and don't play

933
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 3: like that. Man. You know that's not funny. I'm serious, man.

934
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 3: They say a funny name like your like by name,

935
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 3: like the one you have. So hey, listen up my

936
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 3: name to say somebody say, Jody want a new trial.

937
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 3: Everybody go to the news and trying to find it.

938
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 3: And I got a frame named Alex Alex Pagan who say, yeah,

939
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 3: it's the Ogani pace in seven point four and we

940
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 3: went there and they were saying, I got a I won't.

941
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 2: We have limited time left. But in the time that

942
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 2: we do have, I want to get to the ultimate victory. Right.

943
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 2: So they immediately announce they're going to retry you. They're

944
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 2: not done fucking with you yet. I can't think of

945
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: a better way to say that. But now you've got

946
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: the dream team, like we said, and you go for

947
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 2: the new trial, and you want to take this one.

948
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,760
Speaker 5: Sure, we start in November. We had sort of a

949
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 5: fall start in February. We ended up getting rid of

950
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 5: the judge who was clearly biased against him. We started

951
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 5: start in October with the new chief judge, incredibly fair,

952
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 5: promised both sides of fair trial, and totally delivered.

953
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 4: Jury selection is ongoing.

954
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 5: Josh is picking the jury to critical in court depositions

955
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 5: heard that really sort of crumbled.

956
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 4: The States case.

957
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 5: One was the ex wife of Mark Van Zant, who

958
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 5: discovered the bodies. Two of our lawyers, Mary Palmer and

959
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 5: Dylan Black, went to meet with her. She gave a

960
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 5: remarkable story in an Affidavid that Mark had always told

961
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 5: her that Samantha went out the window that night, the

962
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,720
Speaker 5: night of the murders. He had always alibied her, always

963
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 5: said that she was with him all night. Turns out

964
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 5: he was a liar. We had listened to about twelve

965
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 5: hundred of his jail calls over the summer in which

966
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 5: he admitted that he was a liar. Mary Palmer did

967
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 5: an in court deposition of Mark that was just masterful.

968
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 5: It was like the climactic scene of a movie where

969
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 5: he basically just admitted that he was a pathological liar

970
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 5: and his credibility was done. And the second one was

971
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 5: Josh did a deposition of Samantha in court where she

972
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 5: effectively said, I do a lot of things when I'm drunk.

973
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 5: I guess it's possible I did this too, and.

974
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 4: I don't remember.

975
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 5: So between the actual murderer admitting hunder oath that she

976
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 5: maybe committed this crime and her alibi witness admitting that

977
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 5: he was a pathological liar and that she had gone

978
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 5: out the window that night their case was done.

979
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 2: Were you in the courtroom when you were finally found

980
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 2: to be yes, I was.

981
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:22,439
Speaker 3: I was numb. Ah, I pray. I always think God

982
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 3: all win. And to me it was like had about experience.

983
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 3: You know, I lois looking at myself and I'm always

984
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 3: going to remember these I looking at me saying it over.

985
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 4: Finally jury came in no, so the state actually announced.

986
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 2: No prosper nol pross, which is short for a Latin

987
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 2: term that translates to quote, we shall no longer prosecute.

988
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 5: They announced nor pross. We didn't know what they were

989
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 5: going to do. They had asked for extra time to

990
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 5: think about it. Turns out they were getting an immigration

991
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 5: hold put on him because they had never bothered to

992
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 5: do that in the fourteen years that he was locked up,

993
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 5: so that you know, he couldn't actually walk free from

994
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 5: the courtroom, which we were able to rectify later getting

995
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 5: him an immigration bond. So they had to put the

996
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 5: icehold on it. But we still didn't know what they

997
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 5: were going to do. We didn't know if they were

998
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 5: going to continue to go forward. And they came in

999
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:13,720
Speaker 5: the courtroom was full.

1000
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 4: We were all sitting there.

1001
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 5: Nina flew down or like you got to come. We

1002
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 5: think they're going to drop it. I mean they had

1003
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 5: no way forward. Really, the state stood up and announced

1004
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 5: a nol pross and I know I crumbled into a ball,

1005
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 5: I think, almost on the floor. I couldn't believe it.

1006
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,399
Speaker 5: And the judge was so kind and kind of gave

1007
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 5: everybody a minute. I went up and hugged Clemente and

1008
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 5: we were all hugging, and then he wanted to speak.

1009
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 2: And you remember what you said? Yeah, what'd you say?

1010
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 3: I say, God send you angles so you feed, don't

1011
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 3: hear from us, and you angered. You have called upon me.

1012
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 3: And if I hear you, I will free you and

1013
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 3: I will glorify you. I will give you many years

1014
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 3: of life and I will show you my salvation. And

1015
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 3: it sounds ninety one, fourteen, fifteen and sixteen. I think

1016
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 3: everybody will help me out. The ones who send me money.

1017
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 3: They want to make me look like a human being.

1018
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 3: And I say, you don't have an enemy in me

1019
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 3: from this humble legal immigrant. If I can forgive somebody,

1020
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 3: I forget whoever, don't drunk me because I want to

1021
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:27,439
Speaker 3: live a better life.

1022
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 2: Wow, So I have one more question and then we're

1023
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 2: going to wrap up. I think I already know the

1024
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: answer to this question, but I'm going to ask anyway,

1025
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 2: are you better about what happened to you?

1026
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 3: Angry? Better? Angry? Is what you ask?

1027
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 2: Better? Yeah? Better angry? Ye, it's sort of a similar thing.

1028
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, somehow I think it's an injustice. This is I

1029
00:53:54,920 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 3: know it's an injustice. Yeah, I can say I angry,

1030
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:05,359
Speaker 3: but I'm not hateful. You know. A long time ago,

1031
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 3: I let that go because what's killing me. So the

1032
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 3: way I see it now is I just try to adjust, man,

1033
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,359
Speaker 3: and I get aggravated for things, maybe because I got

1034
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 3: stoked so many years ago. But I know I'm gonna

1035
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 3: get better. It will, it has to be.

1036
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 2: I have to lead it, and it is. And it's

1037
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 2: great to see you here. I almost when you were

1038
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 2: talking about breaking down the corner when I was broke

1039
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 2: down myself at to get a little lump in my throat.

1040
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 2: So the tradition here at Wrongful Conviction is that at

1041
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 2: the end of each episode, first thing I do is

1042
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 2: thank you both for coming and being here. Thank you

1043
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 2: having Aria and of course Shorty. And then my favorite

1044
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: part of the show is this, because this is the

1045
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 2: part of the show where I get to stop talking

1046
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 2: and just listen. And so I would like to now

1047
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 2: turn it over to you for any final thoughts that

1048
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,240
Speaker 2: you have. Again, thanks for being here and for everything

1049
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 2: that you're doing, and I wish you, you know, all

1050
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 2: the happiness in the world. And so Maria, why don't

1051
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,280
Speaker 2: you go first, and then Shorty you can close.

1052
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 5: Sure, thank you so much for having us and for

1053
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 5: drawing attention to this case, and you know, obviously very

1054
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 5: important cause overall, I mean, I think just for the listeners,

1055
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 5: you know, like you said, if they end up on

1056
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:31,280
Speaker 5: jurys like really listen, hold the state to their burden.

1057
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 5: But also when the exoneration happens and all the happiness happens.

1058
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,359
Speaker 5: You know, Clemente has a life to live and he's

1059
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 5: trying to piece his life back together, and it's especially

1060
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 5: hard for him because he's not allowed to work right

1061
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 5: now because his immigration case is ongoing. You know, he's

1062
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 5: fortunate for the benefits and the donations of others, and

1063
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 5: that's something that we continue to rely on. So I

1064
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 5: know that Innocence Project is going to do some fundraisers

1065
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 5: for him. He does some speaking and people give him

1066
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 5: donations for that. Unfortunately, he and I get to spend

1067
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 5: He lives three miles from my house now in a

1068
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 5: community for ex Houneries, so we see each other every

1069
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 5: week for laundry and groceries. But you know, any kind

1070
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 5: of donations that listeners are willing to do, we'll have

1071
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 5: that set up pretty quickly. Just really supporting xuoneries. It's

1072
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 5: great to do events like this conference that we're at,

1073
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 5: but making sure that you know, after the dust settles

1074
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 5: and their home, we continue to support them.

1075
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for having me. Just taking back from there,

1076
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 3: Yu get out is not enough there for you know,

1077
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 3: after so many years incarcerated and almost everybody turned back

1078
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 3: when you family members, loves friends going away. We need medical,

1079
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 3: we need dental, you know, the mental health. But I

1080
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 3: always remember the three sides of the story, hers and

1081
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 3: the truth. They don't test evidence. I mean, they don't

1082
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 3: want to find out the truth. And that's simple. If

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Speaker 3: it defended is so adamant to test the evidence. And

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00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 3: you an attorney at there, and you client asking you

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00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 3: to please test the evidence, maybe you should listen to him.

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00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 3: He might be telling you the truth. So thank you

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Speaker 3: for listening, and God bless you all.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

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00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 2: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

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00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 2: week early and ed free by subscribing to Lava for

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00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 2: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our

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00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 2: production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as

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00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 2: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Watis, and Jeff Clibern.

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00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 2: The music in this production was supplied by three time

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00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 2: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

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00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 2: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

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00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 2: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

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00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 2: at It's Jason flamm Ralfel Conviction is a production of

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Speaker 2: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.

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Speaker 3: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported

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00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 3: in this show are accurate.

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00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 5: The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in

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00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 5: this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect

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Speaker 5: those of Lava for Good