1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: When you're a little kid, you have these really actually 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 2: fond memories of this person that you later find out 4 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 2: wasn't just dangerous but was actually a serial killer. 5 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 3: It makes you. 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: Really have the need to kind of deconstruct those memories, 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,319 Speaker 2: and even there are moments where I was like, what 8 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 2: could possibly be wrong with me that I didn't know 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 2: who he was as a little kid. 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 4: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 11 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 4: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 4: true crime podcast Tenfold War Wicked and the co host 13 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 4: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 14 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 4: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 4: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 4: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 4: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 4: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 4: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 4: behind the stories. Most of us have heard the story 21 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 4: of Ted Kaczynski, the unibomber, but this is a new 22 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 4: version of that story. There was a family who lived 23 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 4: next door to him for decades, a family that had 24 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 4: no idea he was secretly building bombs in his cabin. 25 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 4: Jamie Gerring is the author of the book Madman in 26 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 4: the Woods. She tells me about what it was like 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 4: to live right next door to the unibomber. So let's 28 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 4: start with really the beginning. So Ted and is his brother, right, David? 29 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 4: Who have the land? 30 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:53,559 Speaker 3: Yes? 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 4: So they get the land from your grandfather in nineteen 32 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 4: seventy one, and you were born shortly thereafter. 33 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 3: I'm assuming yes, I was born in nineteen eighty. 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 4: Okay, So what is life like for Ted and David 35 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 4: as they've built this cabin and they're in rural Montana. 36 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 4: I don't know actually much about his background. Is he 37 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 4: from a rural area? 38 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: So Ted had always dreamt a fleeing society and kind 39 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 2: of living this particular lifestyle. 40 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 3: In the woods. 41 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 2: His parents really did prioritize spending time together as a family. 42 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 2: They went camping together. Very fond memories were formed as 43 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: a family unit in the woods, and it definitely played 44 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 2: a very large part in both David and Ted's development 45 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: and how they were raised. 46 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 3: But Ted did not live in that way. He was 47 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 3: right before Montana. 48 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: He was a professor at Berkeley, and you know, when 49 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 2: I started to do the research, I discovered that even 50 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 2: when you know, Ted was deciding to go to Montana, 51 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 2: he had already had his plan in place for the 52 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 2: destruction of the Technological Society, and so it was all 53 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 2: part of his plan to move out to this area 54 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: where he could conduct these acts. Ted was just staying 55 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 2: with his brother David in Great Falls, after he had 56 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: left his job as a professor, and he actually didn't 57 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: have long term plans to stay in Montana specifically, but 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 2: he saw this property come up and he asked for 59 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 2: his brother's help in purchasing it. And actually David never 60 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: lived there with him. He visited a few times in 61 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: the early years, but after that it was only Ted 62 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: out there. 63 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 4: What is your father's first interaction with Ted, because I'm 64 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 4: assuming that memory was much fresher for him than it 65 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 4: was for you. Did your dad frame this as weird guy, 66 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 4: fine neighbor, Nothing really happened, hill X happened, and then 67 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 4: that seemed to be a trigger for something. 68 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: You know, there were years of my dad thinking that 69 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: Kazinski was eccentric, strange, but a pretty good guy. My 70 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: mother and my father had Ted over for dinner, they 71 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: played cards together. He was at one point employed by 72 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: my father at the mill. There were plenty of friendly 73 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: neighborly interactions for years. 74 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 3: In addition, Ted. 75 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: Actually helped with the construction of our family's cabin. There 76 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 2: was definitely a positive relationship between my father and Ted 77 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 2: until they started having disagreements. And I'm sure the mill 78 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 2: contributed to that. The noise of the sawmill, and there 79 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: was like some exploratory mining that had happened on a 80 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 2: very very small scale, and there was some outsiders that 81 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 2: were around Ted's property and for obvious reasons now that 82 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: really bothered him. And there were multiple pretty scary interactions 83 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 2: actually between my dad and Ted. 84 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 3: And so it was really just a. 85 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 2: Progression over the years, slowly until it had really completely 86 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: deteriorated right before Ted's arrest. 87 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: Well, let's separate you from your dad. 88 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 4: We keep saying eccentric, which means many different things to 89 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 4: different cultures. What's eccentric in one culture is not in another. 90 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 4: In your teenage mind or even younger, what was eccentric 91 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 4: specifically to you about Ted Kaczynski. 92 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 2: There were multiple things, one being the way in which 93 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: he lived. Now in rural Montana again, the town of Lincoln, 94 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: about one thousand residents, one blinking stoplight, one gas station. 95 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 2: The school is kindergarten through high school. I mean, it's 96 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: a tiny place, and there were plenty of people who 97 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: lived off grid lifestyles, and so that by itself wasn't 98 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 2: strange in the type of environment that we were in. 99 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: But Ted's behavior he always seemed like he was kind 100 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 2: of in a hurry, which as even a little kid 101 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 2: when he would come over and he would ask me, 102 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: you know, what time it was, what day it was. 103 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 2: He always seemed like there was like something he really 104 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 2: had to get done. And I would just think, like, 105 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: what could he possibly have to do. He's a hermit, 106 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 2: he's living alone, Like what could he possibly need to 107 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 2: get to? And of course now all of that makes 108 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 2: so much more sense. So it was so many different things. 109 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: The way that he spoke, the way that he looked. 110 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: I mean, his hair was all over the place. His eyes, 111 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: especially as the years went on, his eyes were just 112 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 2: so wide and as you can imagine, especially a person 113 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: living that way after a really tough winter, his eyes 114 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: were almost kind of like caved in a little bit underneath, 115 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: there was stood on his face, dirt on his hands, 116 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: under his fingernails. I mean, obviously he was living off 117 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: grid and in the wilds, but there was just something 118 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: additionally different about him. 119 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 4: I think that everyone views people differently. They all have 120 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 4: a different point of view, and you pick up on 121 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 4: qualities that someone has. What makes you uncomfortable might not 122 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 4: have made your father uncomfortable. I'm wondering what your mom's 123 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 4: point of view of all of this was. Did she 124 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 4: pick up on something totally differently than you did or 125 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 4: your dad did. 126 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: My mom knew Ted in the early days, so when 127 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: I say that, it's like late seventies, early eighties, my 128 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: mom and father got a divorce and she moved away. 129 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 3: But her initial interactions with. 130 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: Ted were you know, She's thought he was, Yes, he's 131 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: a little different. He lives this off good lifestyle, but 132 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: he just seemed really shy, and he was always really 133 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: polite and kind to my mom. There's a moment in 134 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: the book that I write about when he brought me 135 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 2: a gift as a baby. He hand carved a cup 136 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 2: and brought it over and my mom was at home 137 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: by herself with me and she was startled because she 138 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 2: didn't know who this person was. They hadn't met prior 139 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: to this, She had only kind of heard about him, 140 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: and she did have a pretty fearful response because she 141 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 2: was alone and in her words, you know, there wasn't 142 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 2: anybody close enough to hear her scream, and so just 143 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 2: her saying that so many years later, obviously there was 144 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: something that she did pick up on, but overall, her 145 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 2: experience with him, like I said, you just thought he 146 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 2: was polite and a shy person. Now, my stepmother, who 147 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: lived next to Ted for years, they had a much 148 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: different relationship, and of course Ted changed as the years 149 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 2: went on, and so it makes sense that their relationship 150 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: was also different. But my stepmother and mother were different 151 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,839 Speaker 2: personalities as well, and so that obviously played into it. 152 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: But she had much more red flags that she noticed, 153 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 2: and there were definitely more heated interactions between the two 154 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: of them. 155 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 4: What were those interactions over? What could your stepmother have done? 156 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 4: Is it over the saw mill? Is that what a 157 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 4: lot of this was? 158 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: You know, it was very early on. 159 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 2: I already mentioned that Ted would come over and ask 160 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: what time it was and what day it was, and 161 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 2: it started to really bother my stepmother because she had 162 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 2: moved from the city and she was now living in 163 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: this country environment and him coming to the house so frequently, 164 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: she felt like she was being watched and she felt 165 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: just really uneasy around him, and you know, she kind 166 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: of blew up at him and basically told him to 167 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: go buy himself an effing watch because she was sick 168 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 2: and tired of him coming over. And so and that 169 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: was still pretty early on in the eighties that that happened, 170 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 2: and so that definitely didn't get them started on the 171 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: right foot. 172 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 3: And as she says now, knowing. 173 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 2: That he was the unibomber, that's a pretty scary thing 174 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 2: that she did. 175 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 4: I'm sure nobody could blame her to a certain extent 176 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 4: because that fear. I grew up in the country, and 177 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 4: it still was a little terrifying for me sometimes just 178 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 4: because you're out there, no one's there, it's dark, it's quiet. 179 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: Yes, and you know, there was a lock on our 180 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: but it was just like one of those little hooks 181 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 2: and it was never locked. 182 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 3: I mean we never locked our doors. 183 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, we didn't either. 184 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 3: It was just yeah, it was just the way that 185 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 3: he grew up. 186 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's three timelines happening to me here right. 187 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 4: One is your age and what you're going through. One 188 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 4: is when Ted first does something with a bomb. And 189 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 4: then what is your dad's relationship or your family's relationship 190 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 4: with him? So what are all those three things? If 191 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 4: you're intersecting all three, when does that happen? And what 192 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 4: is the event that starts Ted down this road of 193 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 4: building bombs next door to you all? 194 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy one, when Ted decided to buy the 195 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: property with his brother in Lincoln, Montana, he had a 196 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 2: plan of attack and he knew that he was going 197 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: to be targeting people. He knew that he needed to 198 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: learn how to build bombs and deliver bombs. And it 199 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: was in nineteen seventy eight when his first bomb was sent. 200 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: You know, I wasn't born yet. I was born in 201 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty, but my father remembers the national news of 202 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 2: that first bomb, and very specifically. 203 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 3: I mean there was multiple attacks after that. 204 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: But then the bombing of American Airlines Flight four four 205 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 2: four left a very large mark on my own dad 206 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 2: because he was a pilot and it really I mean, 207 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 2: it was terrifying to a nation, but it touched him. 208 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 3: I think even deeper because of that. 209 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 2: But he remembers reading the news and thinking, oh, that's 210 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 2: also just so far from us in this tiny little town, 211 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: and you know, even the FBI when Maxwell first got 212 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: his initial look at Ted Kaczinski before the arrest, in 213 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: his mind, in no way could that ever have been 214 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 2: the unibomber, because here he is completely disheveled, emaciated, living 215 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 2: in this tiny little cabin, no running water, no electricity, 216 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 2: and still being able to hide from the FBI from 217 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight until nineteen ninety six when he was arrested. 218 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: I think my dad was in shock when the FBI 219 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: finally came to him and was just like, absolutely not, 220 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 2: there is no way that that hermit could be the unibomber. 221 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: And then, you know, as Max told him more, it 222 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 2: made sense and my father was on board. But in 223 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 2: no part of his mind could Ted Kaczynski have committed 224 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: those crimes? 225 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 4: Can you set up the first bombing nineteen seventy eight, 226 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 4: you were two years away from being born. 227 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: What happened and why did it happen? Why this person? 228 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: That was the difficulty in catching the unibomber one was 229 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 2: that he was used pieces of metal and wood that 230 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 2: he was scavenging, much from my father's old cars and sawmill, 231 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: just places he would find in the valley, the dump 232 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: for instance, And so the materials he was using were untraceable. 233 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: But then his victims, they were universities, they were businessmen, 234 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: there was an airplane flight, there was a geneticist. It 235 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: just didn't make any sense who this person was and 236 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: why they were targeting these different people. And so to 237 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: be a student or a professor during this time and 238 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: to see the different targets, I suppose it had to 239 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: be so terrifying. And then it shifted to an airplane, 240 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 2: and then it shifted again to a computer store, and 241 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: so it was almost just like the nation was held 242 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: captive waiting for or the next attack and who it 243 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: was going to be. 244 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 4: So let's just go over nuts and bolts of what 245 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 4: happens here. He starts in nineteen seventy eight, and he's 246 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 4: shipping these bombs to different places or different people. 247 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: Is that right? They're small? How big are we talking 248 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: about a shoe box? 249 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 2: So yes, basically they're in boxes and they're not very 250 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: large boxes. 251 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 3: All of them are a little bit different. 252 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 2: But he's actually getting on a bus with these bombs 253 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 2: and getting very close to the site, and many of 254 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: them he actually brings and leaves like in a parking lot, 255 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 2: for instance, to be discovered by his victim, by his 256 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: intended victims. And so they were all very methodical, all 257 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 2: very deliberate. And in reading his crime journals, I mean 258 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: there were thousands of pages that I was able to 259 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: read and research while writing this book because he documented everything. 260 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: He documented anything from what he ate that day, where 261 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: he hiked, what he was hunting, to his crimes. And 262 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: he would express how disappointed he was if a bomb 263 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: only maimed somebody instead of you know, obviously he was 264 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 2: intending to murder these people. 265 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: What in his mind was his intention? 266 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 4: I mean, I know, we talked broadly about destroying the 267 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 4: technology and the infrastructure and really exposing how industrialization has 268 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 4: destroyed our country and our wilderness. 269 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: What is his big theme with all of this. 270 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: It's a very good question, and it's still not entirely clear. 271 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 2: I mean, he definitely writes of wanting to destroy the 272 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 2: technological society, and it's within any means necessary to him, 273 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: which of course he uses violence and murder to express 274 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: his ideals. So you read those things that he's stating, 275 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 2: and then in his journals he talks about how he's 276 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: not doing these acts of violence, performing these acts of 277 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 2: violence for the next generation or for any sort of altruism. 278 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: He's happy to litter in the wilderness if he wants to. 279 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: I mean, so, it's just it's like it's two different people. 280 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 2: And the one resounding theme that I could really determine 281 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 2: through all of his writings and especially his journal entries, 282 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: was it was just he was so motivated by revenge 283 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 2: and anger. And it's hard to say in any person 284 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 2: that you're trying to study where that really comes from, right, 285 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 2: I mean, unless you're that person, you know, And I 286 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 2: of course have my opinions on how that foundation was 287 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 2: started with him him, but only he could really say 288 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 2: where that anger and that need for revenge has come from. 289 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 4: Which of the incidents that happened is the one you 290 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 4: connect with the most, because maybe it happens at a 291 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 4: time in your life when you can remember, holy moly, 292 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 4: I cannot believe I was doing this, or I had 293 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 4: just seen him and this is now on the news. 294 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 4: What is the strongest recollection you have from one of 295 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 4: these incidents? 296 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: So there are a few that really did touch me 297 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 2: because I had remembered seeing them in the news. But 298 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: I think the one that had the largest impact on 299 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 2: me was a death of Thomas Moser, the advertising executive. 300 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 2: It was in nineteen ninety four. It was not too 301 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: far before his arrest. I was about thirteen, almost fourteen, 302 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: I think at the time, and I do remember seeing 303 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 2: it on the news, and there were so many interviews 304 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 2: done I think after the fact when Ted was arrested, 305 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 2: and I remember David Kaczinsky's wife Linda, who was a 306 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: big reason that Ted Kazinski was arrested, by the way 307 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: she was recounting what really pushed them to go to 308 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 2: the FBI. And that particular murder was so impactful to 309 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 2: her because there was a toddler in the next room 310 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 2: and they had, you know, just had a tea party together, 311 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 2: and I mean it was just the whole narrative of 312 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 2: that family, and then the wake of that violence and 313 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 2: that murder was just something that she couldn't shake because 314 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 2: she had this feeling about him, and then when the 315 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,239 Speaker 2: manifesto came out, it was very clear to her that 316 00:19:52,160 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 2: he was a very likely suspect. 317 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 4: Let's go back to your family and their relationship with Ted. 318 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 4: You say two things in the book that I thought 319 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 4: were really interesting about interactions that were sort of indirect. 320 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 4: One was that you could hear him in the yard 321 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 4: getting the scrap metal, collecting things that you had just 322 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 4: mentioned that were potentially used in some of these bombs. 323 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 4: And the second is is that he sabotaged at one 324 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 4: point your family's saw mill. So let's talk about the 325 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 4: disintegrating relationship between your dad, Butch and Ted. I know 326 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 4: it was it sounds like a thousand little cuts, but 327 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 4: it sounds like things were ramping up as he was 328 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 4: ramping up. 329 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: Is that right? 330 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: Yes, definitely, you know, and as as the years went on, 331 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 2: I think Ted became much more comfortable and as he 332 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 2: was getting away with crimes, I feel like he felt 333 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 2: more powerful as well, because I even look at his 334 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: local acts of sabotage, like you just mentioned, he sabotaged 335 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 2: my father's sawmill, and what he had at stake on 336 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 2: a national level and the crimes that he was committing, 337 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 2: it is shocking that he would put himself in that 338 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 2: danger by sabotaging so close to home. And my father's 339 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 2: sawmill wasn't the only one that was affected. There was 340 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 2: another neighbor that was a bit further away from us 341 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: that Ted actually broke into their home while they were 342 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 2: away with an axe, sliced their cupboards, poured bleach on 343 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 2: the carpets. He even defecated in the house and again 344 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 2: right in his backyard. 345 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 3: He's doing these things. 346 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 2: It's hard to put words to now because I feel 347 00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 2: like it really just came back to his ego go 348 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:05,959 Speaker 2: and his sense of power. And then also he couldn't extinguish. 349 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 2: Like I said, he couldn't extinguish that rage, and now 350 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 2: it was coming out so close to home because he 351 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 2: just couldn't control it. 352 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 4: Before we really talk about the timeline again, you've sort 353 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 4: of touched on guilt. I wonder when this book came out, 354 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 4: did you get any blowback from anybody saying how could 355 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 4: you not know this? Did you ever get any sort 356 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 4: of trolling because your family was right there and how 357 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 4: could you, guys not. 358 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: See I could just see people saying that to you. 359 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 2: So I, unfortunately am in a position where there's definitely 360 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: a tax from all angles. There's a tax for yes 361 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 2: not knowing. I was sixteen when Ted Kazinski was arrested. 362 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: I mean it was really no way for me to 363 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 2: personally know that he was the unobomber. If he could 364 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: hide from the FBI that long, I think he could 365 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 2: keep it as his crimes, a secret from a teenager. 366 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: But you know, there is that, and I definitely I 367 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 2: had my own feelings of guilt, well, especially while writing 368 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 2: this being an adult, because yes, we did live very 369 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 2: close to him, and what was there a way we 370 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 2: could have known where there signs that we missed? 371 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 3: Would we do things differently? I mean I went through 372 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 3: all of those emotions for sure. So there's that. And 373 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 3: then there's the people that think. 374 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: That I am, I guess too sensitive to Ted Kazinsky's 375 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 2: story and to understanding of what created him, and so 376 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 2: I definitely get. 377 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 3: Attacks for that. 378 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: And then there's the other side of like the very 379 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 2: much pro pro ted Kazinski camp that doesn't like the 380 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 2: book for obvious reasons as well. 381 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 3: So I get it all around. 382 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a pro ted Kazinski camp is these are 383 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 4: the people who idolize him, right, I've read a lot 384 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 4: about that. 385 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 2: Yes, And you know, as I've said in my book, 386 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 2: there are things that Ted Kaczinski says that are like 387 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 2: there's moments of brilliance. 388 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 3: He was a genius, there's no disputing that. 389 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 2: But this man, he killed people, he maimed people, and 390 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 2: so no matter how you feel about his ideas, there's 391 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 2: no excusing his violence and his attacks. 392 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 4: So when does your dad become involved? Because they have 393 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 4: an acrimonious relationship as the years go on, you're a teenager, 394 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 4: when does the FBI? First of all, clewe into ted, 395 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 4: and then how and when do they approach butch about 396 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 4: all of this? 397 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 2: After the manifesto was published, there was definitely a very 398 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 2: large process that you know, went into the FBI analyzing that, 399 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 2: and you know, even David Kazinski and Linda they were 400 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: also analyzing it in their own ways, trying to determine 401 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: if they wanted to go to the FBI. They hired 402 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 2: outside council, So there was a lot going on behind 403 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 2: behind the scenes. Once that manifesto was published, and you know, 404 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: after the FBI was involved, they really started doing all 405 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: of their due diligence and seeing, you know, who they 406 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 2: could trust, who they could contact, who they could bring 407 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 2: into the fold to make this investigation a success. They 408 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 2: were kind of doing recon and Lincoln Montana, as you know, 409 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: still pretty undercover, trying to determine what the community was like, 410 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 2: what the terrain even looked like. And it was just 411 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 2: a couple months prior to Ted's arrest that Max Nol 412 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 2: went to my father, and you know, they were still 413 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 2: trying to kind of feel each other out in that 414 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 2: initial meeting, because this is an incredibly high profile case. 415 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: This is a seventeen year long investigation, and of course 416 00:25:54,520 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 2: Max is wanting to keep things pretty close and not 417 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: divulged too much information, but he also knows that there's 418 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 2: a chance that with my dad having such history there 419 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: and being so close to Ted, that he might need 420 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 2: him on the investigation. 421 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 3: And so, you know, once once they kind of had. 422 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 2: Their first interaction and felt felt one another out, they 423 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: really did become very close and Max knew that he 424 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: could trust my dad. And you know, initially it was 425 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: Max telling him first. He said that they were looking 426 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 2: into him, looking into Ted Kazinski for writing some threatening letters. 427 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,479 Speaker 2: You know, my dad, I think he could kind of 428 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: comprehend that. I mean, I don't think that was too 429 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 2: far fetched. But then as they spoke more, he did 430 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 2: tell him the truth and said that he Ted Kazinski 431 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: was suspected of being the unibomber, and that was very 432 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 2: difficult for my dad to process. And you know, like 433 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 2: I said, I think he was in shock. And he 434 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 2: was like, there's no possible way this man is who 435 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 2: you're looking for. And as time went on and Max 436 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 2: told him more of the details of the case, then 437 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: my dad accepted it. And it was terrifying because Ted 438 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 2: had been in his home, Ted had been around his 439 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 2: family and all these years living next to this person, 440 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: it was definitely a moment for my father and he 441 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 2: was willing to do whatever he needed to help Max. 442 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: And the first thing that he did was he actually 443 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 2: walked him up there to the cabin to show him 444 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: exactly where Ted Kazinski lived. 445 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 3: And that is the. 446 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 2: First look that the FBI got at Ted Kazinski because 447 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 2: my dogs were making a bunch of ruckus outside and 448 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: it forced Ted out of the cabin and my dad 449 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: is standing there with FBI agent Max Nolan. Of course, 450 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 2: he's in wranglers and a button down cowboy shirt. I mean, 451 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 2: he looks the part, so he didn't look out of place. 452 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 2: But my dad just yells like, hey, Ted, Butch here, 453 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: Oh hey, Butch shouldn't went back into his cabin. That 454 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 2: was the beginning of the end, because that was, you know, 455 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 2: the first time the FBI saw Ted, and shortly after 456 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: that he was arrested. And my father actually recorded the 457 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 2: terrain for the FBI with his little handheld video camera 458 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: because they were having such a hard time getting images 459 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 2: through all this dense forest around Ted's home because they're 460 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: trying to plan the arrest and like where could he 461 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: run to and where do they need to be, And 462 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: so my dad went out there and recorded the road 463 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 2: that went up to the cabin all around it. 464 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 3: I mean, he truly like at that point he knew. 465 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 2: This man was a suspected serial killer, the longest running 466 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: domestic terrorists in United States history. He knew he had weapons, guns, 467 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: he knew maybe a bomb. He didn't know, but he 468 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: did it anyway because he couldn't have one more person 469 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 2: hurt or killed by this person. 470 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 4: I'm assuming your dad never said anything to you. Did 471 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 4: he tell your stepmother when this is all going on? 472 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 3: No? 473 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: Wow, I know. 474 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 2: The FBI asked him not to tell one person about 475 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: their suspicions about what he was going to do. 476 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 3: For the FBI. 477 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 2: It was in complete confidence, and I think that's why 478 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 2: my dad was so secretive even after the arrest. I mean, 479 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 2: he shared little bits and pieces, but I think that's 480 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: why he didn't sit down and like retell all the stories. 481 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 2: And so that's why. And I ended up hearing them 482 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 2: straight from the FBI. 483 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 4: Who was there to witness the arrest? Was your dad 484 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 4: at home? Or were you at home? 485 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: So the sawmill was actually set up as kind of 486 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: a base, and so there was a lot of FBI 487 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: agents there. My father was there. Then there was a 488 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 2: ton of kind of swat FBI agents that were like 489 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: in full gilly suits and you know, running up the 490 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 2: side of the mountain and getting into position. I wasn't 491 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: there to witness this, but you know, my dad and 492 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: then of course Max Nowell told me kind of what 493 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: that day looked like. They did everything they could to 494 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 2: ensure a safe arrest of Ted Kaczynski, and they did. 495 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 4: So shorthand the trial for me, there's probably a section 496 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 4: of our audience who certainly wasn't born at this point 497 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 4: and might not know the story very well. So what 498 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 4: ends up happening with him? 499 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 2: So the trial happens in Sacramento, California. That's where Hugh 500 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 2: Scrutton was killed one of his victims, and then also 501 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 2: Gil Murray, which was his last victim in nineteen ninety five, 502 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 2: and so the trial takes place in Sacramento. I found 503 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 2: one detail very interesting. I believe it was the defense 504 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 2: wanted to show the cabin, this little ten x twelve 505 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 2: cabin that the unibomber lived in, and even I have 506 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,959 Speaker 2: pictures of the interior, just that there's soot, you know, 507 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 2: all over the wall. There's a teeny tiny little window, 508 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 2: to really show what living this way and living in 509 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: this isolation says about the murderer. They were trying to 510 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 2: show his mental illness. I mean, he was identified as 511 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 2: a paranoid schizophrenic during the trial. 512 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 3: Of course Ted did not agree with that. 513 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 2: He and he wanted to represent himself because he didn't 514 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 2: want anybody to believe that he was a paranoid schizophrenic, 515 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 2: because if his mind wasn't sound, then were his ideas, 516 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 2: and that's what he had put his whole life into, right. 517 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 2: But of course he doesn't end up defending himself and 518 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: he is found guilty of being the unibomber and killing 519 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 2: three injuring twenty three people over seventeen years. 520 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 3: And you know, one of the. 521 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: Most powerful things that I found in the trial were 522 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 2: the victim impact statements, and I did include them in 523 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 2: my book because I felt it was so important to 524 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: include their voices in this And those victim impact statements, 525 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 2: I mean, they say it all not only the effect 526 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 2: of you know, maybe long term disabilities because of this action, 527 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: but time lost with family, a father not being there 528 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 2: for all of his kid's birthdays, and you know, just 529 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 2: really the ripple effect of this violence. And it was 530 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 2: a really heartbreaking but powerful part of this trial. So 531 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 2: Ted did end up serving multiple life sentences and he 532 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 2: went to the SuperMac in Florence, Colorado, until pretty recently 533 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 2: he was transferred to Butner FMC in North Carolina. The 534 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 2: judge felt like that punishment was very appropriate for this 535 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 2: particular person. 536 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: Did your dad have an interest in going to the 537 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: trial or following the trial. 538 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 2: Yes, my dad, our whole family followed the trial. It's 539 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 2: a strange thing for me, especially to have seen Ted 540 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 2: in his own natural environment, you know, in the woods, 541 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 2: in his clothes that are kind of rotting off in 542 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 2: the holes, and his hair, and then to see him 543 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 2: behind flashes of light from everybody taking pictures and reporters, 544 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 2: and he's in an orange jumpsuit and his eyes are 545 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 2: wide and it was difficult to process, especially, you know, 546 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: being as young as I was a teenager seeing that 547 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 2: person in that environment, and I definitely found myself kind 548 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: of struggling. Even my mom, she's like, I think you 549 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 2: were kind of in shock about it as well, because 550 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 2: you kept saying things to the effect of like, well, 551 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 2: if they do find he's guilty, you couldn't really process 552 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 2: that this person was the unibomber. 553 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 4: You spoke to him, Is that right? While he was 554 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 4: in prison for the book? 555 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 2: Yes, you know, I actually started the process for an 556 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 2: in person visit, but then COVID happened. I think it 557 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 2: was probably just closure for me to correspond with him. 558 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 2: Was there a part of me that hoped that the 559 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 2: unibomber would apologize? I would have to say, yes, there is. 560 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 2: I mean, that's not what I got and that's not 561 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 2: what I expected. But you know, there was still a 562 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 2: part of me that kind of hoped for that, you know, 563 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 2: because there's horrific things that I discovered. Of course, on 564 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 2: a national level, I knew of his crimes, but he 565 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: poisoned my dog Lethally. 566 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: What wait, what when did that happen? 567 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So while I was in high school, O our 568 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 2: dog got very sick and we took him to the vet. 569 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 2: The vet determined that he was poisoned. He ingested some 570 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 2: type of poisoning. You know, we couldn't figure out what 571 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 2: it was. There wasn't really anything we could do. And 572 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 2: he suffered a pretty long drawn out death and it 573 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 2: was determined that he was poisoned with Stryck nine. We 574 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 2: didn't have Strick nine around the property. It was a mystery. 575 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 2: And I did, you know, go through the FBI files 576 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 2: while I was doing my research for the book, and 577 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 2: I found that one of the things that was documented 578 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 2: was Stryck nine pellets, and so of course that hit 579 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:56,800 Speaker 2: me like, oh my gosh, that's what Wiley ingested. Then 580 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 2: after that, I found a letter that Ted Zinsky had 581 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 2: written from prison. He was actually refuting some facts in 582 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 2: a different book that was written by this man named 583 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 2: Chris Waites that was talking about some deaths of his 584 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 2: animals that he was attributing to Ted Kazinski. And in 585 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 2: the letter, Ted states that he didn't harm Chris's dogs. However, 586 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 2: he did poison a dog that continuously snuck into his 587 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 2: garden at night, and so between reading that letter and 588 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 2: finding the FBI evidence of the strict nine notes, it 589 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 2: was pretty apparent that he had killed my dog, which 590 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 2: was horrible. And then there are things that I think 591 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 2: you don't quite process because they're too traumatic when you're 592 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: going through them, especially when you're a young person. There 593 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 2: was a story of you know, Ted pointing a gun 594 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 2: at my stepmother and my little sister, who was only 595 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 2: two at the time. There was kind of told in 596 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: like hushes as a teen after Ted's arrest, and then 597 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 2: while we were filming the Netflix documentary Unibomber, in his 598 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 2: own words, my stepmother was recounting a day in which 599 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,479 Speaker 2: she was in the woods with my little sister, felt 600 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 2: something very ominous and just like knew she needed to flee, 601 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 2: and so she grabbed my little sister. They ran and 602 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 2: got in the truck took off. After the arrest, the 603 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 2: FBI shared a journal entry, which are literally just like 604 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 2: mead notebooks that he would write in every day. So 605 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 2: Ted is staring at my stepmother and my little sister 606 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: in the woods through the scope of his rifle, and 607 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 2: he's going back between mother and daughter, and he says, 608 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 2: it would be easy to take the little bitch out, 609 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 2: but then the big bitch would get away, or if 610 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,919 Speaker 2: I shoot the big bitch, then the little bitch would 611 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 2: be left on the hill. 612 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 3: And so again, just knowing. 613 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 2: The level of danger we were in and what this 614 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: person did to people across the nation and then what 615 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 2: he did in our backyard, it was all just really 616 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: difficult to process. And like so, like I said, when 617 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 2: I was hoping for an apology and my response from 618 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 2: dead it was for those reasons. 619 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 3: But obviously that wasn't going to happen. 620 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: Well what happened? What did he say? 621 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 2: So he initially said something to the effect of, you know, 622 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 2: it's always good to hear from people that I've known 623 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 2: in the past. I had asked him some questions about 624 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 2: his beliefs and his ideals and such, and basically the 625 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 2: response was to go read his book. 626 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 4: Is that basically it. It was just self promoting and 627 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 4: that's it. 628 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it was a little bit more than that, 629 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 2: but there wasn't much to it. I think my initial 630 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,760 Speaker 2: letter was like eight pages and his was one page. 631 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 2: And then the interesting thing was he wrote it on 632 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 2: a piece of paper that he had basically just been 633 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 2: writing his thoughts on and so in the book, I 634 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 2: have a picture of the letter and then a picture 635 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 2: of the back of the letter, just kind of showing 636 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 2: the juxtaposition of this madman that we lived next door 637 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: to for twenty five years. 638 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: Amazing. 639 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,240 Speaker 4: What do you think when this is all said and done? 640 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 4: Is there a lesson learned from any of this? What's 641 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 4: your big takeaway from the story. 642 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 2: So I think there can be much gleaned from this 643 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 2: entire story, from the whole narrative. I mean, what can 644 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 2: we learn from Ted Kaczynski and the making of a murderer? 645 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 2: What kind of created this person? And the reminder that 646 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 2: every single person has a story, even a murderer. 647 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 3: And I think that's important. 648 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 2: It doesn't excuse the violence, doesn't excuse what happened. But 649 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 2: I think as people, it's just important that we understand. 650 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 2: And I feel like we're always, you know, looking for 651 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 2: the monster. We're always on the lookout for the monster, 652 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 2: whether it's next door or you know, in any circumstance. 653 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 2: And these people are human beings and they don't present 654 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 2: themselves most of the time as monsters. They may be 655 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 2: a teacher or a father, or I mean there's so 656 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 2: many different a babysitter, your next door neighbor. And as 657 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 2: soon as I feel like we stop looking for the monster, 658 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 2: we'll pick up on more of the signs. And it's 659 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 2: taught me personally to better trust my own instincts and 660 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 2: you know, really really listen when I have those feelings arise. 661 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: Let me ask this one last question. 662 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,399 Speaker 4: Your dad knew that at some point you were likely 663 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 4: to write a book or do something with this story. 664 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:50,439 Speaker 1: Is that right? 665 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 3: Yeah? I always said I was going to write this book. 666 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,319 Speaker 1: What do you think his reaction would be to this 667 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: book if he had lived long enough to read it. 668 00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 2: I think he would be really proud of it. I 669 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 2: think he would be proud of really the research I 670 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,359 Speaker 2: put into it, not just telling our story. But it 671 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 2: was so important for me as I wrote every word 672 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 2: of this to represent the people that didn't have a 673 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 2: voice in this well. I mean from the victims, to 674 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 2: even the FBI agents who worked the case, and to 675 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 2: Ted's own brother David. I mean, they were always in 676 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 2: my mind as I was writing this, and I think 677 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,759 Speaker 2: he would be really proud of that, and just you know, 678 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 2: trying to report on the entire story, not just our story. 679 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 4: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 680 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 4: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 681 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 4: Is Wicked and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 682 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 4: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis m Rosi. Our 683 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,439 Speaker 4: associate producer is Alex Chi. This episode was mixed by 684 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 4: John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. 685 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 4: Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. 686 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 4: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 687 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 4: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More. And if you 688 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 4: know of a historical crime that could use some attention 689 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 4: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at 690 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 4: info at tenfoldmore. 691 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: Wicked dot com. 692 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 4: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for 693 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:33,240 Speaker 4: Wicked Words