WEBVTT - From the Vault: Mystery Cults, Part 3 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:08.639 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.520 is Robert Lamb. Today is a Saturday, so we have 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:13.399 a vault episode for you. This is part three of 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:16.840 four in our Mystery cult series that originally published three six, 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:19.400 twenty twenty five. Let's dive in. 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:26.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.080 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:35.720 is Robert. 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.360 Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.440 part three in our discussion of the mystery cults of 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:47.800 the ancient Mediterranean. Mystery cults are religions that are differentiated 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.599 from the mainstream public cults of the Greco Roman world because, 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.880 instead of focusing on the regular transactional tending to the 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:00.760 needs of the gods through ritual and sacrifice, mystery cults 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:06.319 were centered around the performance of secret mystic rites, which 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.760 were usually revealed only to the cult's initiates, and which 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:16.240 were often described as intense sensory experiences involving direct contact 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:19.640 with the power of the gods. In Part one of 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.319 this series, we talked mainly about the historical context of 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.479 the mysteries and how they differed from the most common 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.880 religious practices of Greek and Roman polytheism. And then in 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.000 part two we looked at a couple of specific examples. 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:38.200 We looked at Mithraism, a mystery cult that flourished in 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.240 the Roman Empire, especially among members of the Roman army, 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:45.440 from roughly the first through the fourth century CE. And 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:49.760 then also we started talking about what was the most 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.680 famous and probably the most revered mystery cult for hundreds 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:56.240 of years among the Greeks and Romans, which was the 0:01:56.280 --> 0:02:00.400 festival of the Eleusinian Mysteries, the Secret Rites, which took 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:04.400 place in Eleusis, which was about twenty three kilometers west 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.920 of the center of ancient Athens. And we are back 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:09.200 today to talk about. 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:10.040 More, all right. 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:12.720 So in the last episode we had to leave off 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.560 in the middle of our discussion of the Elusinian Mysteries 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:17.359 because we ran out of time. So I think that's 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:19.680 where we should jump back in today. We can start 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:24.120 off with that subject. We already talked last time about 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:28.400 the story of Demeter and Persephone, which is the primary 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:32.640 myth associated with the cult. Particularly we're focused on the 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:36.680 version told in the sixth or seventh century BCE Dactylic 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.680 Hexameter or poem known as the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.960 and I'll do a brief summary to refresh. In this story, 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.560 Demeter's daughter Demeter is the goddess of course, of grain 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:54.679 and agriculture. Demeter's daughter Persephone called Cory meaning maiden in 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:59.720 inscriptions associated with Eleusis, is kidnapped to the underworld by Hades, 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:02.639 the out of the dead, and the grief stricken Demeter 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.240 searches for her around the world in vain. Along the way, 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:10.399 she has interactions with the royal family of Eleusis, including 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:14.880 a thwarted attempt to transform a baby prince named Demophoon 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:19.000 into an immortal, after which Demeter demands that the people 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.720 of that place build her a temple and performs special 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.880 rites for her which they are not allowed to depart from, 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:30.960 ask questions about, or broadcast to the uninitiated. Eventually, in 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.000 the story the daughter Corey or again that's the same 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.120 character as Persephone and other tellings, Corey is permitted to 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.720 leave the underworld, but because she has eaten of the 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:45.120 fruit of Hades, she cannot leave forever and must spend 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:47.640 part of every year back in the realm of the dead. 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.680 And this myth is often tied to seasonal cycles of 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:51.680 growth and harvest. 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.680 Yeah, we can't stress in enough everyone. If you venture 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.880 into a spirit realm, don't eat anything. Yeah, exactly comes 0:03:58.960 --> 0:03:59.960 up time and time again. 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.200 You gotta know the rules of the underworld. This came 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.560 up in another ancient poem we were talking about. Oh, 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.480 I think it's the poem of Gilgamesh and key Do 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.720 in the nether World, where in key Do loses some 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.520 stuff down like it falls into the nether world and 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.440 he has to go down to get it, and Gilgamesh 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.440 is like, look, you gotta do all these things right. 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:24.200 You don't wear certain kinds of clothes, you don't clap 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.480 too loud or shout too loud. All this stuff will 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:30.120 attract negative attention down there. And then in Kedo just 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:33.000 does it all wrong and he gets stuck. I don't 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:35.440 know what the other rules for Persephone would have been, 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:39.680 apart from donate to pomegranate seed, but presumably there are 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.480 other rules as well. But anyway, we also talked last time, 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.880 not just about the myth itself, but about some things 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:50.919 ancient writers said about the effect of taking part in 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:56.000 the rights of ilusis. Many writers are, of course reluctant 0:04:56.000 --> 0:05:00.680 to share anything about the secret rituals themselves lest they 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.200 profane them. You don't talk about the mysteries. That's part 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.760 of what Demeter said, no talking about this, But they 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.560 do mention that the effect on the person who takes 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:15.240 part is a profound one and a positive one. To 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:19.480 illustrate that, I found the following passage from a dialogue 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.440 of Cicero called on the Laws, where a character in 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:28.480 this dialogue is talking about the mysteries and says, as follows, 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.440 much that is excellent and divine does Athens seem to 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.919 me to have produced and added to our life, But 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:39.200 nothing better than those mysteries by which we are formed 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.560 and molded from a rude and savage state of humanity. 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:47.720 And indeed, in the mysteries we perceive the real principles 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.040 of life and learn not only to live happily, but 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.240 to die with a fairer hope. So what does taking 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.719 part in the mysteries do for us? It seems that 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:00.880 it causes us to ascend from a rough, crude state 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.640 of existence, maybe an animalistic state of existence, into a 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:08.760 more refined type of being. Maybe it civilizes us in 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.000 some way. And this connects to something I've seen in 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.880 a few other sources having to do with the grain 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:19.000 and agriculture significance of the myth, that there's something about 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:23.599 the mysteries which is tied to the gift of agriculture, 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.440 of growing grain and the fruits of the harvest to 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:31.159 humans from the gods. And thus it's sort of like 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.400 perceived that that is the thing which separates us from 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:38.880 the animals. But beyond that, the mysteries also show us 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.760 what life is really about, or sort of the originating 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.480 principles of life. It makes us happier in this life, 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.240 and it makes us hope for better things after death. 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.360 And the last point has an interesting resonance. I don't 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.039 know if we alluded to this when we were talking 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.000 about the myth in full, but of course, Persephone known 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:01.080 as Corey in the inscriptions at Ilus, she is the 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:04.279 queen of the underworld, you know, so she's going to 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:06.000 be down there at least part of the year in 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.479 the nether world. I wonder if that has something to 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:12.120 do with the relationship between the mysteries and the fate 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:12.679 of the dead. 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.040 Yeah. Yeah, she ends up with like a foot in 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:20.600 both worlds. In the agricultural world, and then also in 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.520 the world of death in the afterlife, that's who you 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:25.920 want to get in good with a transitional being that 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:30.040 understands your world as well as the next world. 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:32.840 Though to be fair that that connection might just be 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:36.160 a coincidence. I mean, it is possible also that those 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:38.760 who have experienced the mysteries might expect a better fate 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.840 in the afterlife simply because they have some kind of 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.640 deeper connection with the power of the gods. They have 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.320 more God intimacy in general than people who have not 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.360 had who have not gone through the mysteries. 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:53.080 Yeah, yeah, or I mean, you know, to sort of 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:57.320 couch it in some sort of modern language, we could 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:01.040 say that at least while you're going through these, you're 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:03.080 very much living in the now. So that's got to 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.080 at least have a temporary effect on any anxieties you 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:08.600 have about the future. 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.520 Well certainly, yeah, while you're doing the rights themselves. But 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:13.600 I mean, to be clear, these authors do talk about 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.440 it as having a lasting effect, one that follows you home. 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:18.760 Yeah yeah, And I think, you know, there's probably a 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.480 case to be maybe if you couple a sensational experience 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:29.480 with those elements of at least temporarily exiting your anxieties. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.920 This could be the essentially the cocktail recipe for some 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:35.200 sort of lasting change. 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.080 Now, before I move on, I want to mention a 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.360 couple of my major sources. One is a book we've 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.640 already talked about in this series by a scholar named 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:46.920 Hugh Bowden called Mystery Cults in the Ancient World the 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:49.880 Times and Hudson twenty twenty three edition, a Bowden being 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.400 an ancient historian affiliated with King's College, London. But I 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.960 also wanted to point to a chapter in The Wily 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:01.200 Companion to Greek Religion edited by Daniel Ogden. The chapter 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.400 is called the Mysteries of Demeter and Corey, and it 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.520 is by Kevin Clinton, who is a professor emeritus of 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.760 Classics at Cornell. Both very good resources on the Eleusinian mysteries, 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.760 and I'll refer back to both authors several more times. Now, 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.040 moving beyond what we've already talked about the myth and 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:21.640 the effect on people, what do we actually know and 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.959 what can we reasonably guess about the form the mysteries took? 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:30.120 What were these powerful rights? Well, there are some things 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.559 the sort of public elements of the festival, the associated 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.640 festival that we do know with a good bit of certainty, 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.080 and we'll move from what we know more about what 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:43.000 we know less about. The Eleusinian Mysteries were celebrated in 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:46.880 stages that took place at different times of the year. 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.839 So scholars think there was a primary stage of celebration, 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.240 known as the Lesser Mysteries, which were held at a 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:59.080 place called Agrai within the city of Athens around the 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.080 end of the winter beginning of spring, so our February 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:06.960 March season, and that was a different, separate thing, but 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.360 people usually did this before the main thing, which was 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:14.679 the Greater Mysteries, which took place between Athens and Eleusis 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.960 during the autumn around our months of September October. Clues 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:21.720 from the literature of the time indicate that people generally 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:26.280 participated in the lesser mysteries before doing the greater mysteries, 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.560 and the total festival of the Greater Mysteries lasted eight 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.120 days and began with public events. So when we talk 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:36.680 about the secret rights, it's not like the whole thing 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.640 of the Elusinian Mysteries were secret rights. It was just 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.800 like one sort of climactic part of the festival was 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.440 made up of the secret rights. You had lots of 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:51.719 public events that included sacrifices to various gods. There was 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:56.400 a process of preparation and purification of the initiates, the 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.640 people who wanted to be initiated into the cult. There 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:03.160 was a solemn march from the center of Athens to Eleusis, 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.720 and then finally you would get to the secret rights 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:11.199 inside a closed hall of initiation called the Telesterion, which 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.520 was the sort of big central building inside the sanctuary 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:19.040 of Demeter and Corey in Ilusis. It's hard to say 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:24.160 exactly when these festivals began and when they ended in history, 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:26.160 but we know a couple of things to sort of 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:31.040 set the maximal boundaries in time. While the archaeological record 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:33.679 in the area directly around the sanctuary goes all the 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.040 way back to the Bronze Age, it appears to have 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:40.160 been abandoned for some time around twelve hundred BCE, and 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.000 then the site was continuously occupied beginning sometime in the 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:48.400 eighth century BCE for hundreds of years after that, and 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.920 then we know that the rights probably continued no later 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:55.920 than the end of the fourth century CE, when Eleusis 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.080 was destroyed by the Goths, and after this there appears 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:03.720 to have been known attempt to rebuild the sanctuary. By 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.960 this time, the Roman Empire would have been largely Christian anyway, 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.880 and you know that would have produced some severe friction 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:13.719 for the cult of Ilusus. 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.160 And we'll come back to the twilight of the mystery 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:17.439 cults here in a bit. 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.440 Now. An interesting thing is that during the time the 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:24.200 cult was in operation, lots of famous people in the 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:28.560 ancient world, including authors that we would read, including multiple 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:33.440 Roman emperors like Augustus Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius, made the 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:37.920 trip to Eleusis to be initiated into the mysteries, and 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:42.040 that in itself kind of highlights a curious fact. While 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.680 the core rights themselves, the mysteries were secret and you 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.800 couldn't share them with outsiders, people would come from all 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:55.640 over to be initiated, So it seems that the secret 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.840 rituals were in a way more kind of open, more 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:03.360 kind of globally open to participation then many of the public, 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.319 the so called public cults of the Greco Roman world 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.359 would be, which many of which were quite locally focused. 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.240 So for most of the time the mysteries existed. It 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:16.880 seems that anywhere, anyone from anywhere was allowed to come 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:18.960 and be initiated as long as they met a couple 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.080 of criteria. They had to speak Greek or be a 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:25.160 Roman later on under the Roman Empire, and they had 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.600 to have not committed murder. And if you met those criteria, 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.040 you could you could be initiated, you could learn the 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:32.880 you could learn the secrets, you could take part in 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:33.520 the mysteries. 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.839 And I assume you could lie about the second one, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.720 or it could be left up to your interpretation what 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.080 murder was. It's not like you had like a designated 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:45.880 punch card that you would have to show. 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.760 Yeah, I guess. I guess. The question is like, do 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:52.200 do local people know that you committed murder? Right? Did 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:54.119 you commit murder anywhere around Athens? 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:55.040 Yeah? 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:56.920 Okay, So what else do we know about what took 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:00.760 place around the mysteries? Here again, I'm drawing large from Bowden, 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.400 trying to pull together all these facts. One thing is that, 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:07.240 going back to what I was just saying about people 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.440 coming from all over before the festivities began in the autumn, 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.360 a truce went out through the Greek cities ensuring that 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.120 anyone who wanted to be able to come to the mysteries, 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.160 could travel safely to Athens to take part, so a 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:24.200 kind of period of sanctuary on travel around the area. 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.840 We also know something about the rights involving specific sacred 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:33.000 objects called heira or hyra. I'm sorry I did not 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:34.840 look up which way to say that. It's h i 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.720 e r A. I'm going to say hira for now. 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:44.160 These were carried in enclosed vessels tied with a red ribbon, 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.720 and they were carried in a ceremonial procession by the 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.120 priests of Ilusus, first two Athens at the beginning of 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.680 the festival, and then back to Illuses for the end. 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:00.400 So what were these sacred hidden objects? That was one 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.200 of the secrets you don't get to know. Inside the Telesterion. 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:08.520 The objects would probably be shown and interacted with in 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.080 some way by the initiates, but writer sympathetic to the 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.320 mysteries do not tell us what these sacred objects were. 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:20.480 Bowden argues that the hiro were probably not statues of 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:22.920 Demeter and Corey like you might get with other cults. 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.600 I mean, it would be very common for other public 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.240 cults in the Greco Roman world to have a cult 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.440 statue that you might even in some cases if it 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.800 was small enough take out and carry in a parade. 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.120 That doesn't seem to be the case here. Instead, the 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:42.880 priests were probably bearing some collection of small sacred objects 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:47.680 which represented the goddesses in some way. One Christian writer 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:51.880 from the ancient world, writing against so called heresies, claims 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:55.400 that the main secret object was an ear of grain. 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:57.760 So we don't know if this is correct or not, 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.840 but that would not be weird for grain imagery to 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:02.880 be used in these rituals, given the role of demeter. 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:04.000 It seems plausible. 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.920 Yeah, it feels like the ritual and the storytelling would 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.320 really have to do the heavy lifting if the sacred 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:11.840 object was just the grain, though there had to be 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.040 other objects as well. Right, here's a piece of wheat. 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.080 Yeah, I mean, but something we'll get into in a 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:22.000 minute here is you can present a sheaf of wheat 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:24.960 in a much more or much less dramatic fashion. 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.280 That's right. The presentation is everything. 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.280 Yes. Another thing we know is that the procession of 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:36.040 the sacred objects between the cities got an armed escort 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.920 made of young men from Athens, so they were well guarded, 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.800 and the initiates were generally understood to have to do 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.320 some stuff beforehand before you go into the greater mysteries. 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.600 I don't know if it was actually required, but it 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.480 seems at least customary that people would usually go through 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:59.480 the lesser mysteries at Agri first. Agra is another place nearby, 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.320 sort of within in the city of Athens uh And 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:06.200 people seemingly did these other things before they went to 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:08.879 the greater mysteries. But it is hard to say for sure. 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.040 There's a lot we don't know about the lesser mysteries. 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.720 They're kind of passing references to them. This is one 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.560 thing I brought up in the last episode, where like 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:22.000 in a dialogue of Plato, Socrates just says to somebody 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.359 by point of comparison that like they figured out something 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:29.040 big before they figured out something small. They say, oh, 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.640 you know, you've been initiated to the greater mysteries before 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:33.560 the lesser mysteries. I didn't know you could do that. 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:37.639 You know, this is not the first time I was 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.320 reminded of this. I've thought about this a little bit 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.600 in the last episode, but I was thinking about side shows. 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.120 You know, you would have your main circus and then 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.760 you would have the side show, which might have things 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:55.679 that were a little more specialized in maybe less public interest. 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.040 They might be, you know, have more to do with 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:03.720 you know, human a normaladies or other curios or you know, 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:09.879 fake specimens of imaginary creatures. And it seems like you 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:11.560 could at least compare this a little bit to the 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.320 idea of lesser and greater mysteries. You go through one, 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.240 then you go through the other, and there are variations 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.880 of this and other elements of entertainment. We kept talking 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:26.720 about haunted attractions or haunted houses, and one of the 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:30.480 big ones we have in the Atlanta area has almost 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.320 always two houses. There's the one larger house and then 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.199 there's a smaller secondary house, which is generally like a 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.679 little harder in its horror, a lot more chainsaws and 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:43.920 blood and stuff. So you know, you have one set 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:47.560 of sensational experiences you might have, and then there's like 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.680 another the next level you go to if you dare 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:51.680 that's right. 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.480 And again I do not have direct evidence, and none 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.680 of the authors I read seem to indicate that we 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.679 know you had to do the lesser mysteries first. Instead, 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.080 it seems more like it was just understood that if 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:05.760 you were going to do them both, you would do 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:07.879 the lesser first. There was no reason to do the 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:09.560 greater and then do the lesser. 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:14.000 Yeah, lacking full context and understanding again of the mysteries, 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.359 it seems like I feel like a jerk if I 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:18.440 just did the greater mysteries and not the lesser mysteries, 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:21.120 or if I'd done the lesser mysteries before, I might 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.720 want to like refresh. It's like watching season one before 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:27.320 before season two comes out, right, you want to rewatch it. 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:31.320 Yeah. According to Plutarch, there is this it seemed to 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:35.240 me at least hilarious incident where a Hellenistic king named Demetrius, 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.040 who was ruling in the fourth to the third centuries BCE, 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:43.560 had the Athenians officially alter their calendar, the calendar of 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:45.840 the year, so that he could do the lesser and 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:48.679 then the greater mysteries back to back within a few days. 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.000 So it's kind of like I'm going to make the 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.600 Americans change their calendars so i can do Halloween, Christmas, 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:59.479 and then Valentine's Day all on a weekend. Demetrius, by 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.640 the way, he went the way he did another thing 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:06.480 called the apoptica, which meant seeing the Greater Mysteries for 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.760 a second time. And this is another thing referenced commonly 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:12.439 in the ancient world. It seems that you were not 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.760 fully initiated until you had taken part in the Greater 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:19.479 Mysteries twice, and you had a different role, it seems 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.040 the second time you were there. I'll talk more about 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:33.639 that in a minute. So at the beginning of the 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:36.960 festival you get a big announcement in the Agora of Athens. 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.560 Then people wishing to be initiated would go down to 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:44.200 the sea with a young pig, wash it in the water, 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:48.679 and then they would sacrifice it. And this was in 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.600 some cases done by like thousands of initiates at a time, 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:56.200 so you can imagine the scene as pretty bananas. At 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.720 some point, new initiates would be paired with a sort 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:04.480 of figure called a mystigogos, essentially like a sponsor. This 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.000 would be somebody who already knew what was going on 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.240 or was initiated, whould guide the newbie in the coming rights. 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:14.080 On the following days, there would be more sacrifices in 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:17.720 Athens to the Elusinian goddesses, and then, beginning later in 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.680 the history of the festival, also to Asclepius, the god 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.240 of healing and medicine. There was like a tradition here 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:26.560 involving a sacred snake, and then after several days of 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:30.480 preparation and sacrifices, you'd get the procession going back from 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:34.640 Athens to Eleusis to the cult center. And this would 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.080 have one group made of priests transporting the concealed sacred 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.240 objects the Hira underguard, and then there would be another 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:45.280 group that was made up of the initiates to the cult. 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:48.080 And the walk between the cities was pretty long. It 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:51.080 was like twenty two or twenty three kilometers, and at 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.680 one special place near the end of the journey, Bowden 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:58.040 mentions that the initiates endured a form of ritual mockery 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:03.560 by onlookers called the gepherismos, which I don't know that 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:05.520 stuck with me. I want to come back to that 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:07.760 in a minute. It's interesting. So it's like it's just 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:10.440 understood as part of it. You're taking part. People are 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:13.479 going to mock you, insult you, her whole things at 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:14.280 you as you go by. 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:16.520 It's like a roast, a mini roast. 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:21.040 Then finally you reach the sanctuary complex of Demeter and corey, 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:23.800 and here there's like dancing that takes place outside, and 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:28.120 then you would go inside for what lies beyond. Now, 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:32.320 how did this sanctuary compare to other religious sanctuaries in 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:35.920 the Greek world? Seem to be a few differences. Bowden 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:39.640 mentions that there was probably no cult statue of the goddesses, 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:41.520 at least that we know of, not like we had 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:45.480 in other famous temples. And it also does not seem 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:50.520 that animal sacrifices were made on the altar here. The 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:54.680 central building was again the one I mentioned earlier, the Telesterion, 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:59.119 the Hall of Mysteries, and this was the big square 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:02.840 building that clearly rebuilt and expanded a couple of times 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:05.920 in its history. In its largest form, it could hold 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:08.440 thousands of people at a time, maybe like three thousand 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:12.240 people inside and had a sort of tiered stadium standing 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:15.199 room area so that people further in the back could see, 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:16.919 so you can think of it as a kind of 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:21.719 big square theater. And then inside the Telesterion was a 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:26.720 smaller building called the Enacteraron, which means palace. So the 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:29.439 initiates got a day of rest after they arrived at 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:33.679 the sanctuary complex and during the stay. It's not certain 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.919 what they did, but they may have facted and possibly 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:41.720 also consumed a prepared liquid that we talked about in 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:47.480 the last episode called Kookion spelled kyk e n. Now 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:50.160 that came up in the last episode because it featured 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:53.560 in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter. That poem we talked about. 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:58.679 The context was Demeter arrives at King Celius's home in disguise, 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.320 and she has offered wine by the Queen Medonaira, but 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:06.080 she refuses it and instead she drinks cookon And that's 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:09.160 supposed to be a beverage or maybe a gruel made 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:15.040 from grain, water and herbs. Last time I mentioned mint, 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:18.800 but I've also seen penny royal indicated here. And there 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:22.880 appear to be different versions of Kukon described in ancient literature. 0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:26.720 Sometimes it's just this grain gruel. Sometimes it was mixed 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.640 with wine and perhaps cheese. Sometimes it is described as 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:34.600 intoxicating in nature. Sometimes it is not described that way. 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:38.880 Sometimes it appears to have been a mundane drink consumed 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:42.000 by peasants, and other times, mainly here, it seems to 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:47.679 have deep ritual significance. And so Kukion has attracted a 0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:52.040 lot of attention even from people who are not primarily 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:54.920 interested in ancient history, but from people who are interested 0:24:54.960 --> 0:24:58.320 in questions of speculative religious pharmacology. 0:24:59.000 --> 0:24:59.520 That's right. 0:24:59.680 --> 0:24:59.960 Yeah. 0:25:00.200 --> 0:25:03.520 Over the past several decades, there's been a recurring question, 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:05.679 and that question is still out there, still battered around 0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:11.199 in contemporary literature. The question being was cookie on a 0:25:11.240 --> 0:25:15.400 psychedelic substance of some sort, and this idea has been 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:19.600 explored by various commentators over the years, including Robert Graves, 0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:25.359 the historian and author, Albert Hoffman the chemist, and also 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:31.160 ethnobotanist and mystic Terrence mckinna. Specifically, I had to bust 0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:33.760 out my copy of Terence McKinnon's Food of the Gods 0:25:34.400 --> 0:25:37.840 because McKennon gets into this. He points out that the Graves, 0:25:38.160 --> 0:25:43.480 Robert Graves suggested the possibility of the psychedelic mushroom psilocybin being. 0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:44.960 Involved and. 0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:51.000 Kind of initially championed this idea, while Albert Hoffman and R. 0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:56.240 Gordon Wasawson presented the theory of ergotized beer brewed from 0:25:56.280 --> 0:25:59.639 a strain of the ergot fungus, those being two of 0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:03.800 the main sort of theories regarding what this could have 0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:06.560 been if it was a psychedelic substance, and there are 0:26:06.560 --> 0:26:11.800 some problems, especially with the ergatized beer examples we'll get into, 0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:14.639 and Balden discusses some of this in the book as well. 0:26:15.119 --> 0:26:17.520 He points out that, okay, this is an idea that's 0:26:17.680 --> 0:26:21.879 never been particularly well received by experts in historians, though 0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:24.480 it continues to generate a lot of interest in scholarship, 0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:30.399 and he outlines two primary objections, the first practical in 0:26:30.440 --> 0:26:34.160 the second theoretical. So, first of all, the practical objection 0:26:34.480 --> 0:26:37.800 concerning specific theories that the mysteries in question depended on 0:26:37.960 --> 0:26:42.520 an ergot derived psychedelic which would have been similar to LSD. 0:26:42.960 --> 0:26:47.720 So as a reminder, ergot doesn't contain LSD, but contains 0:26:47.880 --> 0:26:52.400 lysergic acid as well as the precursor to LSD ergotymine. 0:26:52.760 --> 0:26:55.760 But the main problem here, the practical objection is that 0:26:56.280 --> 0:26:59.959 psychedelic doses of ergot itself would result in just terrible 0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:05.199 illness and death rather than a temporary experience something that 0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:07.919 you would then you know that would be this like 0:27:07.920 --> 0:27:10.760 defining moment of your life. Perhaps we did episodes and 0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:13.920 ergotism for stuff to boil your mind. Back in twenty fifteen, 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:18.440 and yeah, generally it does not sound like an afternoon 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:19.160 of enlightenment. 0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:23.080 No, so I certainly don't have expertise in this area, 0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:25.240 but from what I can tell, this seems like a 0:27:25.280 --> 0:27:26.720 pretty reasonable objection. 0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:30.440 Yeah, yeah, I mean, we're, if memory serves getting into 0:27:30.440 --> 0:27:33.240 the details of ergotism, we're talking in times like flesh 0:27:33.240 --> 0:27:37.360 peeling madness. So nothing that's again seems like it would 0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:42.959 be part of an overall positive spiritual experience. And in 0:27:43.200 --> 0:27:45.840 Food of the Gods, Terence McKinnon also addressed this, joking 0:27:45.840 --> 0:27:49.200 that quote clearly unpleasant experiences may lie ahead for those 0:27:49.240 --> 0:27:52.000 who set out to prove by self experiment the Wasason 0:27:52.080 --> 0:27:57.359 Hoffman theory concerning Elusius. But then he also presents a 0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:01.600 couple of ideas that were out there regards, on one hand, 0:28:01.600 --> 0:28:05.120 a particular species or erga that might yield less toxicity 0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:09.280 and higher psychoactive results, as well as the notion presented 0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:13.359 by Watson and Hoffmann that if you were to properly 0:28:13.680 --> 0:28:17.199 macerate the argotized grain in water, you might have been 0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:21.520 able to separate the water soluble psychoactive alkaloids. But again 0:28:21.920 --> 0:28:24.320 mckinna stressed that the burden of proof is on those 0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:27.639 who assert and no one at that point and sense 0:28:27.680 --> 0:28:29.199 has sufficiently proven any of this. 0:28:29.680 --> 0:28:32.400 But you can see why the example of the Elusinian 0:28:32.480 --> 0:28:35.720 mysteries would be incredibly appealing to people who have a 0:28:35.840 --> 0:28:39.760 general theory that psychedelics play a major role in the 0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:42.280 establishment of religious practices. 0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:46.200 Right right, And certainly that is the case with McKenna's 0:28:46.240 --> 0:28:51.800 overall thesis the role that psychedelics may have played and 0:28:51.960 --> 0:28:56.600 the evolution of humans into their current state, as well 0:28:56.640 --> 0:29:02.960 as the advancement of human civilization. He but his discussion 0:29:02.960 --> 0:29:04.960 of this is interesting and I think ultimately a lot 0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:10.400 more balanced than some might expect. Overall, I think Food 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:12.760 of the Gods is The scholarship is a lot better 0:29:13.720 --> 0:29:16.520 than some might think, because I don't want to overstress things, 0:29:16.560 --> 0:29:19.480 because I think with McKenna you're dealing with someone who 0:29:19.800 --> 0:29:23.760 was a visionary and a mystic and definitely has some 0:29:24.000 --> 0:29:28.600 key arguments for the about the trajectory of human civilization, 0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:30.720 what has gone wrong and what needs to be corrected. 0:29:31.840 --> 0:29:35.040 A number of opinions that I don't think are really 0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:38.160 all that off track. But we also shouldn't like overstate 0:29:38.240 --> 0:29:40.719 what Food of the Gods is compared to other works 0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:44.840 of dedicated scholarship, and I mean he does stress that 0:29:44.920 --> 0:29:47.480 again there are a number of mysteries in play here, 0:29:47.600 --> 0:29:50.600 including just you know, what are we talking about here? 0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:55.800 Was it even something tangible? He references an example that 0:29:55.880 --> 0:29:59.000 was presented by Wilson and Hoffman in their thesis and 0:29:59.080 --> 0:30:02.720 all of this, that there's this four to fifteen BCE 0:30:03.040 --> 0:30:07.520 example in which an Athenian noble, a noble that we're 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:09.720 going to come back to that is sometimes described as 0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:15.560 quote a flamboyant Athenian playboy. His name is Alcibiades, and 0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:21.080 he's recorded as having been fine for bringing the Elusinian 0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:26.240 sacrament home for entertainment purposes with friends. And the argument 0:30:26.240 --> 0:30:28.320 here is, well, this would seem to suggest that it 0:30:28.400 --> 0:30:32.000 was not only tangible, but perhaps something entertaining in and 0:30:32.000 --> 0:30:37.760 of itself. Now, the theoretical objection to psychedelic theories concerning 0:30:38.440 --> 0:30:42.680 the kokion is referenced by Bowden. The theoretical objection basically 0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:45.560 blows down to the fact that drugs are not strictly 0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:51.000 necessary for these rights as we understand them. The ancient 0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:54.719 Greeks had plenty other tricks up their sleeves to create 0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:59.960 the experience. Many based in performance and even mechanical theatrical effects. 0:31:00.400 --> 0:31:03.600 And so he stresses that you know, even say the 0:31:03.640 --> 0:31:08.280 nocturnal bachic revels of the Dionysus mystery cults might not 0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:12.440 have depended on wine. So if wine wasn't needed for 0:31:12.520 --> 0:31:16.400 the revels of Bacchus, then do we really need psychedelic 0:31:16.480 --> 0:31:22.320 substances for these to work. That being said, they might 0:31:22.320 --> 0:31:25.480 have had wine. And it's also very possible that the 0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:28.920 rights were discussing here involved substances of one form or another, 0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:31.920 either as a whole or at different points that they 0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:36.600 were laid out. But I think this is an excellent 0:31:36.640 --> 0:31:38.920 point about a raisis, and I think one way to 0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:42.240 think about it is to think about another like the 0:31:42.280 --> 0:31:45.959 modern version of the spectacle that we indulge in with 0:31:46.040 --> 0:31:48.800 other people, that being going to a concert, Like think 0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:51.160 of a big concert you went, or even a small concert, 0:31:51.240 --> 0:31:54.720 just a noteworthy concert you went to. If you've been 0:31:54.760 --> 0:31:58.360 to a concert at all over the past I don't know, 0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:03.080 several decades, no doubt you've encountered folks that have imbibed 0:32:03.120 --> 0:32:06.200 in say alcohol that is generally sold freely at most 0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:10.520 of these events, or perhaps individuals who've imbibed in some 0:32:10.840 --> 0:32:13.479 level of illicit drug use, be it you know, simple 0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:19.040 marijuana or some psychedelic or stimulant. And you know, the 0:32:19.120 --> 0:32:21.800 question that this raises is okay, Well, is the resulting 0:32:21.840 --> 0:32:24.360 mental state from taking any of these substances going to 0:32:24.880 --> 0:32:29.560 enhance the experience of the show? Well? Certainly a strong 0:32:29.760 --> 0:32:31.480 a case or a strong case can be made, like 0:32:31.480 --> 0:32:32.960 even if you're just talking about, Hey, I had a 0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:35.360 cup of coffee to help keep me awake until the 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:38.600 headliner came on. Fair enough, But is any of this 0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:43.120 strictly necessary for a great time? And I realized that 0:32:43.200 --> 0:32:47.200 this sounds like a question posed in a dare program 0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:50.200 from high school for many people. But if we think 0:32:50.200 --> 0:32:52.000 about it logically, I think it works out. You know, 0:32:52.040 --> 0:32:56.720 all the technical, theatrical, social aspects of a concert are 0:32:56.760 --> 0:33:01.480 in place. They're generally very potent. You've probably bought that 0:33:01.560 --> 0:33:04.560 ticket and gone out to the show because you already 0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:08.720 have some invested interest in the spectacle. And as such, 0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:12.640 substances they might be helpful in one regard or another, 0:33:13.200 --> 0:33:16.480 they might enhance things, but the spectacle is already the spectacle, 0:33:16.760 --> 0:33:19.680 the lights, the music, the communal energy, and so forth. 0:33:19.960 --> 0:33:22.640 Yeah, and imagine if you were approaching the concert with 0:33:22.720 --> 0:33:25.440 the knowledge that what happened there was was secret and 0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:26.360 couldn't be revealed. 0:33:26.840 --> 0:33:30.240 Yeah, yeah, which is just going to enhance everything. And 0:33:30.600 --> 0:33:32.720 certainly that's I mean, anytime you have any kind of 0:33:32.760 --> 0:33:38.160 a theatrical presentation, you know, either mildly theatrical or overtly theatrical, 0:33:38.520 --> 0:33:40.600 if there's a secrecy to it, oh well, that just 0:33:40.640 --> 0:33:43.080 makes it all the more special. Think about a speakeasy. 0:33:43.120 --> 0:33:45.600 Any of you have ever been to one of the 0:33:45.640 --> 0:33:49.200 modern speakeasies, not like a Prohibition era speakeasy, but if 0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:51.680 you if you did go to a Prohibition era speakeasy, 0:33:51.720 --> 0:33:54.800 you know, kudos to you for being up on podcasts 0:33:54.840 --> 0:33:57.479 and so forth. But you know, it's like there's generally 0:33:57.480 --> 0:33:59.360 this level of like, oh I had to go through 0:33:59.360 --> 0:34:02.320 a secret door or to get into this bar. You know, 0:34:02.480 --> 0:34:04.320 it just makes everything all the more exciting. 0:34:04.400 --> 0:34:06.040 Right, I want to come back to that in a 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:06.720 minute here. 0:34:06.960 --> 0:34:09.200 So Abouden writes, quote, if we are to look for 0:34:09.239 --> 0:34:13.640 an external explanation for the Eleusinian experience, the theater seems 0:34:13.640 --> 0:34:16.560 a better place to look than the kitchen or brewery. 0:34:16.960 --> 0:34:20.200 Again, that seems quite reasonable to me, you can't totally 0:34:20.520 --> 0:34:24.319 rule out a pharmacological influence, but I don't think we 0:34:24.520 --> 0:34:26.920 need to go there to explain anything. 0:34:26.880 --> 0:34:29.520 Right, And it does create, as McKenna pointed out, an 0:34:29.520 --> 0:34:32.840 additional burden of proof, that is that is required. 0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:34.640 Now. 0:34:34.680 --> 0:34:39.480 I looked at some more recent articles exploring the various 0:34:39.480 --> 0:34:43.799 psychedelic theories regarding the Elusinian mysteries, and you do see 0:34:43.840 --> 0:34:47.760 proponents still arguing that some of these theories, at least 0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:51.480 the psychotropic mushroom one, that the mushroom theory seems to 0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:56.040 be more valid than and less less fraught with complications 0:34:56.040 --> 0:35:00.359 compared to the aragot beer. You know that one may 0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:02.600 be in the mix still, But at the end of 0:35:02.640 --> 0:35:04.719 the day, all we could really do is speculate, And 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:07.560 again it just adds an additional level of evidence that 0:35:07.600 --> 0:35:11.000 would be required, evidence that we do not have, but 0:35:11.320 --> 0:35:14.680 certainly more possible, fewer complications than saying maybe it was 0:35:14.719 --> 0:35:25.360 aliens by all means. 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:29.040 All right, So whether or not the people engaged in 0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:34.120 this were consuming hallucinogenic barley mush again, no reason to 0:35:34.440 --> 0:35:37.080 assume they needed to do that to explain anything we know, 0:35:37.239 --> 0:35:40.040 but who knows. Maybe whether or not that was happening 0:35:40.680 --> 0:35:43.040 after the public rituals at the end of the festival. 0:35:43.560 --> 0:35:45.200 Not quite at the end, actually, there was a little 0:35:45.200 --> 0:35:47.760 bit after this, but basically the climax of the festival. 0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:51.320 Once night had fallen, you would get to the big deal, 0:35:51.400 --> 0:35:55.480 the secret rites inside the closed hall of mysteries, the Telesterion. 0:35:55.960 --> 0:35:58.719 So what was going on there? Well, here's where we 0:35:58.800 --> 0:36:02.840 know a lot less, because, as we've discussed, those who 0:36:03.000 --> 0:36:06.440 had not been initiated were not supposed to know, and 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:09.480 those who had been initiated were not supposed to tell. 0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:14.960 But we have some clues. So there are ancient references 0:36:15.000 --> 0:36:20.280 to the mysteries inside the Telesterion as quote things done, 0:36:20.760 --> 0:36:25.920 things shown, and things said, which is sort of vague, 0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:28.000 but that still tells you a bit. It suggests there 0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:32.720 is a visual display things shown, a physically enacted element 0:36:32.840 --> 0:36:37.960 things done, and a recited element things said aloud. The 0:36:38.200 --> 0:36:42.120 second to third century Christian Church father Clement of Alexandria 0:36:42.320 --> 0:36:46.440 claims that initiates to the Eleusinian mysteries had to recite 0:36:46.480 --> 0:36:51.040 a kind of pass phrase, which translates to I fasted, 0:36:51.520 --> 0:36:54.920 I drank the kookion, I took from the chest, and 0:36:55.040 --> 0:36:58.319 having worked with the sacred implements. I removed them into 0:36:58.360 --> 0:37:02.839 the basket and from the back into the chest, which 0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:05.640 that last part sounds like, Oh the kind of activity 0:37:05.640 --> 0:37:09.160 that would just thrill my toddler right now. Is that 0:37:09.200 --> 0:37:11.480 a common thing for kids at this age? I don't know. 0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:13.760 I mean, does it ever go away? I love putting 0:37:13.760 --> 0:37:16.800 things in little boxes and taking things out of boxes. Yeah, 0:37:16.880 --> 0:37:19.959 I mean people watch whole videos online just to see unboxings. 0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:22.880 Right, soah, out of this box, into that box and 0:37:22.920 --> 0:37:23.680 then back again. 0:37:23.920 --> 0:37:24.920 Yeah. 0:37:25.000 --> 0:37:28.120 Anyway, as for the things shown in that phrase, a 0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:31.280 lot of ancient sources, while not saying what was shown, 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:36.200 really emphasized the idea of the mysteries as a visual display. 0:37:36.320 --> 0:37:40.240 In fact, the priest of Demeter is known as the hyrafant, 0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:44.080 which means that name translates to a person who shows 0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:48.520 or displays sacred things. Now, this might be a good 0:37:48.520 --> 0:37:50.759 place to talk a bit about the idea of the 0:37:51.120 --> 0:37:54.280 profanation of the mysteries. Bowden's book has a good little 0:37:54.280 --> 0:37:57.320 subsection on this, and you were alluding to it earlier 0:37:57.760 --> 0:38:00.800 with the idea of that guy I'll see is the 0:38:01.320 --> 0:38:06.560 fifth century BCE Athens based general who he got in 0:38:06.640 --> 0:38:09.240 trouble because the deal was he was like right about 0:38:09.239 --> 0:38:12.520 to head off for a naval campaign to Sicily, So 0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:16.120 they're getting ready to go to launch this expedition, and 0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:20.359 suddenly he is accused by enemies of having revealed the 0:38:20.400 --> 0:38:24.400 mysteries of Eleusis to non initiates. And in fact, the 0:38:24.480 --> 0:38:27.880 idea was not just that he told secrets, but that 0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:31.680 he sort of privatized the mysteries by recreating them in 0:38:31.719 --> 0:38:36.080 his house with non initiated guests. I was trying to 0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:38.960 figure out, like what exactly was the spirit of this 0:38:39.080 --> 0:38:42.920 recreation of the mysteries, Like was he trying to get 0:38:42.920 --> 0:38:45.720 his own mysteries going or was it in a spirit 0:38:45.760 --> 0:38:49.360 of mockery or irony. I'm not quite sure there. 0:38:49.800 --> 0:38:51.560 Or kind of like being it could have been a 0:38:51.600 --> 0:38:53.440 sense of he was like just a super fan. He's 0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:56.080 like I love this stuff so much. You know, he's 0:38:56.160 --> 0:38:58.120 just s geaking out about it, wanting to share it 0:38:58.160 --> 0:39:01.239 with his buddies. But then in doing so, you know, 0:39:01.360 --> 0:39:04.880 commits at least minor heresy. You know, these things can 0:39:04.920 --> 0:39:06.880 get out of control sometimes. 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:10.480 But this accusation is received as quite serious, like it 0:39:10.480 --> 0:39:14.360 would be a grave offense which would lead to divine punishment. 0:39:14.400 --> 0:39:16.560 The kind of implication is, if you know, you send 0:39:16.560 --> 0:39:20.239 out a general out to war who has just profaned 0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:23.839 the secret rights, the gods are going to work their 0:39:23.880 --> 0:39:27.800 wrath on him with defeat in battle. And so maybe 0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:29.720 this is a good place to come back and explore 0:39:29.760 --> 0:39:32.640 the idea of the secrecy of the rights a little more. 0:39:32.840 --> 0:39:35.600 We talked about this a minute ago, and I had 0:39:35.600 --> 0:39:38.319 some more thoughts about this. Specifically, I was reading about 0:39:38.360 --> 0:39:42.279 it in that book chapter by Kevin Clinton where he 0:39:42.400 --> 0:39:47.160 cites a passage by Aristotle which makes reference to the mysteries, 0:39:47.719 --> 0:39:52.680 and I thought this was interesting. Aristotle says, in translation quote, 0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:57.160 the initiates are not supposed to learn anything, but rather 0:39:57.400 --> 0:40:01.400 to experience and to be disposed in a certain way, 0:40:01.840 --> 0:40:07.680 that is, becoming manifestly fit or deserving. So the cult 0:40:08.000 --> 0:40:12.480 has secrets which are only revealed to initiates. But according 0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:15.200 to Aristotle at least, and I trust he probably knew 0:40:15.200 --> 0:40:18.719 what he was talking about, the initiates are not supposed 0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:22.600 to learn anything. That's not the point. Coming back to 0:40:22.680 --> 0:40:24.680 something we talked about in an earlier part, that the 0:40:24.719 --> 0:40:27.799 point of the cult is not an information puzzle. It's 0:40:27.840 --> 0:40:32.320 not to learn the secret password. Instead, you are supposed 0:40:32.360 --> 0:40:36.799 to have an experience. And even more interestingly about what 0:40:37.440 --> 0:40:40.480 Aristotle says here, you're supposed to have an experience and 0:40:40.719 --> 0:40:46.720 by virtue of that experience to become worthy. Now, according 0:40:46.719 --> 0:40:50.600 to Clinton, the Greek word Aristotle uses for experience here 0:40:50.920 --> 0:40:53.280 does mean what we mean by experience, but it also 0:40:53.440 --> 0:40:58.360 means to suffer. And Clinton argues that the secrecy of 0:40:58.400 --> 0:41:02.320 the Mystery cults was not originally understood as the point 0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:05.839 of them. Rather, it came to be perceived as a 0:41:05.920 --> 0:41:09.960 defining aspect of them, sort of because of the drama 0:41:10.120 --> 0:41:14.080 it implied, especially to non initiates, and because of the 0:41:14.160 --> 0:41:18.239 severe penalties for violation of those secrets. It seems this 0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:21.960 wasn't the case always, because you can find counterexamples, but 0:41:22.040 --> 0:41:24.520 it looks like, at least in some cases, the punishment 0:41:24.600 --> 0:41:28.600 was supposed to be death. So, given the assumption that 0:41:28.719 --> 0:41:33.360 the mystery cult was not actually about secrecy, the secrecy 0:41:33.480 --> 0:41:38.600 was not the point. Clinton asks an interesting question quote, 0:41:38.640 --> 0:41:42.960 we may then legitimately ask what actually was the point 0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:47.440 of the secrecy, But first one must consider what is 0:41:47.520 --> 0:41:50.800 so special about a secret. A secret is a fact 0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:54.040 or a representation of a human act that cannot be 0:41:54.160 --> 0:41:58.040 disclosed beyond a certain group. What could be so exciting 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:00.840 about a fact or an act that could draw thousands 0:42:00.840 --> 0:42:03.439 of people from all over the Greek world each year 0:42:03.560 --> 0:42:06.160 to the mysteria. And of course we do get some 0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:08.279 attempts in the ancient world to kind of frame the 0:42:08.320 --> 0:42:12.440 secret of the Eleusinian mysteries as something that would be 0:42:12.960 --> 0:42:16.120 concealed for a reason of it being i don't know, 0:42:16.200 --> 0:42:19.839 scandalous or titillating. And some of these reports come from 0:42:20.280 --> 0:42:22.960 early Christian writers, and that kind of makes sense, like 0:42:23.040 --> 0:42:26.440 they would be maybe hostile to other religious practices and 0:42:26.480 --> 0:42:30.200 not worried about profaning them. But it's also unclear how 0:42:30.239 --> 0:42:33.080 accurate these these claims are and whether we should believe 0:42:33.120 --> 0:42:36.799 their descriptions. But one example is that Clinton mentions that 0:42:36.920 --> 0:42:41.319 some Christian authors claimed the big secret of the Elysinian 0:42:41.360 --> 0:42:43.640 mysteries is you got to watch a priest and a 0:42:43.680 --> 0:42:44.760 priestess have sex. 0:42:46.600 --> 0:42:48.920 Again, I come back to the idea of some sort 0:42:48.960 --> 0:42:52.640 of a sideshow tent. You go into the back and 0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:54.919 you get to see like a little something extra that's 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:57.280 not for everyone who came to the main circus. 0:42:57.520 --> 0:43:00.520 Yeah, so again we have no way of knowing that's 0:43:00.560 --> 0:43:03.640 not true. But Clinton kind of argues against it. He says, 0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:06.400 this would not be sufficient to attract the kind of 0:43:06.440 --> 0:43:09.680 attention and like draw the kind of crowds from all 0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:12.520 around like are described like for one thing. It's not 0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:16.360 that unique. And to me it just sounds kind of 0:43:16.400 --> 0:43:19.080 like a like a slander that one religion says about another. 0:43:19.120 --> 0:43:21.719 And there were plenty of Slanders going the opposite way too, 0:43:21.920 --> 0:43:26.600 Slanders Greek and Roman polytheists accused Christians of being immoral, 0:43:26.719 --> 0:43:30.040 of engaging in cannibalism and incest and all kinds of stuff. 0:43:30.360 --> 0:43:32.959 Yeah, if you just wanted to see a sexual act 0:43:33.040 --> 0:43:35.600 or sexual act for performance, there are surely other shows 0:43:35.640 --> 0:43:38.799 in town. So yeah, this does sort of ring of 0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:41.000 some sort of a slander, doesn't it. 0:43:41.400 --> 0:43:44.759 Right, So instead, Clinton argues that the purpose of the 0:43:44.800 --> 0:43:49.160 secrecy was in order to make the experience of the 0:43:49.239 --> 0:43:54.839 solemn rituals feel extraordinary. And I mean this rings true 0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:59.160 to me. That which we that which we receive as 0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:05.080 common knowledge, feels trivial. That which is hidden and is 0:44:05.280 --> 0:44:09.400 specially revealed to us feels like it gets an automatic 0:44:09.600 --> 0:44:13.359 leg up in profundity. You know, it's just so much 0:44:13.400 --> 0:44:17.440 easier to interpret a secret revealed to you as something 0:44:17.480 --> 0:44:20.360 that is meaningful in itself, when in fact it doesn't 0:44:20.400 --> 0:44:24.680 need to be. And you know that got me thinking, like, 0:44:26.040 --> 0:44:28.920 I don't mean to insult the mysteries by this or 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:32.600 profound religious experiences in general, but I kind of can't 0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:36.960 help make the comparison to a common sort of influencer 0:44:37.120 --> 0:44:40.440 who exists today that I would characterize as like the 0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:46.800 influencer mystic, a person who ostensibly traffics in insights somebody 0:44:46.880 --> 0:44:50.240 who is out there. Maybe they've got media channels or whatever, 0:44:50.280 --> 0:44:54.960 and they do commentary and analysis or life advice. But 0:44:55.239 --> 0:44:58.440 their insights, at least as I judge, might not be 0:44:58.600 --> 0:45:02.640 especially interesting or seem especially valid if they were just 0:45:02.880 --> 0:45:07.480 presented in written form or paraphrased into plain language. But 0:45:07.560 --> 0:45:11.000 this kind of influencer mystic can achieve a fan base 0:45:11.520 --> 0:45:14.080 because they're able to talk in a way that makes 0:45:14.120 --> 0:45:17.880 whatever they're saying feel like a great occult secret is 0:45:17.920 --> 0:45:21.080 being unearthed, and by listening to them you are the 0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:25.080 first witness to an unveiling of truths, which is an 0:45:25.080 --> 0:45:28.680 intoxicating feeling if somebody can pull it off. And so 0:45:28.800 --> 0:45:30.880 of course I'm speaking with a little bit of derision 0:45:30.920 --> 0:45:34.040 about these modern examples. But you could also, at the 0:45:34.040 --> 0:45:38.080 same time use the theatrics of the unveiled secret to 0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:42.160 increase the salience of genuine, profound insights and experiences. So 0:45:42.200 --> 0:45:46.799 I'm not suggesting the Eleusinian mysteries were necessarily hollow at 0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:49.040 their core or anything like that. Again, there's just a 0:45:49.080 --> 0:45:50.520 lot we don't know about their core. 0:45:50.880 --> 0:45:54.120 It's really interesting to think about this too in terms 0:45:54.200 --> 0:45:59.719 of the secular modern world and even the religious modern 0:45:59.719 --> 0:46:04.160 world in many respects, Like we are so accustomed to 0:46:04.239 --> 0:46:07.240 the idea that you can skip to the end and read, 0:46:08.360 --> 0:46:11.880 read the finish, read the conclusion, it would get a 0:46:11.880 --> 0:46:14.960 bullet list of the main things that are important. And 0:46:15.000 --> 0:46:17.560 so the idea that there would be levels to something 0:46:18.080 --> 0:46:21.040 or some sort of a secret reveal that it is 0:46:21.120 --> 0:46:23.799 not for everyone else to know it does kind of 0:46:23.840 --> 0:46:28.440 run counter to sort of the informational DNA that a 0:46:28.480 --> 0:46:29.120 lot of us have. 0:46:29.760 --> 0:46:32.240 Yeah, and so while I think in the modern world 0:46:32.280 --> 0:46:35.840 this is often used for ill, it wouldn't necessarily have 0:46:35.920 --> 0:46:37.480 to be used for ill. But I think you can 0:46:37.520 --> 0:46:41.759 get you can get a lot of persuasive and attentional 0:46:41.800 --> 0:46:45.320 mileage just by framing your opinion or whatever you're about 0:46:45.320 --> 0:46:48.520 to say as a secret that is being unveiled to someone, 0:46:48.760 --> 0:46:51.000 you know, like I'm going to pull back the curtain now. 0:46:51.600 --> 0:46:54.160 I think that the place, weirdly enough, where it is 0:46:54.440 --> 0:46:59.960 often the most respected is in terms of narrative storyteller, 0:47:00.320 --> 0:47:03.120 particularly with movies and the you know, the idea of 0:47:03.120 --> 0:47:06.600 no spoilers, you know, not only don't spoil this for me, 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:08.800 but I think more profoundly, when you have an experience 0:47:08.800 --> 0:47:10.920 where there's some sort of a film out there and 0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:13.120 either is particularly well crafted or it does involve a 0:47:13.160 --> 0:47:17.240 particularly innovative twist or effective twist or an emotional twist, 0:47:17.440 --> 0:47:20.439 and people will stress, don't read the spoilers, go into 0:47:20.480 --> 0:47:22.959 this without you know, don't watch the trailer, go into 0:47:23.000 --> 0:47:25.040 it so that everything is a surprise. You know. 0:47:25.120 --> 0:47:26.200 Yeah. 0:47:26.239 --> 0:47:28.640 Outside of that, like, there's not much that we're we're 0:47:28.880 --> 0:47:31.919 we generally engage in where we're open to that sort 0:47:31.960 --> 0:47:34.719 of experience. I mean, I guess in some respects we 0:47:34.760 --> 0:47:36.560 are like like, you know, some one might say, have 0:47:36.600 --> 0:47:38.200 a child, you don't know how this is going to 0:47:38.280 --> 0:47:40.880 turn out, but you're you're in the long run, it's 0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:43.120 it's gonna be a surprise. There's gonna be some twists 0:47:43.160 --> 0:47:47.080 you're not expecting it's true. But you know, the parenthood 0:47:47.080 --> 0:47:49.040 and movies, those are the two examples that come to mind. 0:47:49.480 --> 0:47:52.040 But when it comes to religion, we're more of the mind, well, 0:47:52.120 --> 0:47:54.480 what are they believe in? Give me a list? Is 0:47:54.480 --> 0:47:56.280 there a holy book? All right, I'm going to skip 0:47:56.280 --> 0:47:58.080 to the end. Is maybe there's some cliff notes on 0:47:58.160 --> 0:47:58.920 it and so forth. 0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:01.719 Well, I mean, and that goes back to something we 0:48:01.760 --> 0:48:04.600 talked about in the first episode of the series about 0:48:05.160 --> 0:48:09.440 that anthropological framework of the doctrinal religious model versus the 0:48:09.440 --> 0:48:14.440 imagistic or a religious model. Bowden makes reference to these ideas, 0:48:14.800 --> 0:48:19.000 and the short version is that doctrinal modes of worship 0:48:19.120 --> 0:48:23.879 worship tend to be frequent, regular, low intensity, but also 0:48:24.080 --> 0:48:27.920 have clear meaning and function. You can kind of have 0:48:27.960 --> 0:48:32.480 a systematic explanation of what the purpose and meaning of 0:48:32.520 --> 0:48:36.960 the rituals are, versus what's known as the imagistic model 0:48:37.040 --> 0:48:42.480 of religious practice, where you know, rituals tend to be rare, strange, 0:48:42.960 --> 0:48:46.479 high intensity, and more ambiguous in terms of meaning. Maybe 0:48:46.480 --> 0:48:49.279 nobody's even telling you what to make of the experience 0:48:49.320 --> 0:48:52.839 you had. Now, I guess the implication is that mysteries 0:48:52.880 --> 0:48:56.040 such as the mysteries of ill Usis would be much 0:48:56.080 --> 0:48:59.479 more firmly in the imagistic mode of worship. That there's 0:49:00.360 --> 0:49:04.920 something profound, high intensity going on, and it may well 0:49:04.960 --> 0:49:08.840 be very ambiguous, very open to your own contemplation and interpretation. 0:49:08.920 --> 0:49:11.040 Maybe nobody tells you what it means or even what 0:49:11.080 --> 0:49:14.319 it's doing. But that does bring us back to the 0:49:14.360 --> 0:49:17.960 Secret Rights themselves. So what else can we guess about 0:49:18.000 --> 0:49:21.040 the content of the mysteries? And here I'm going to 0:49:21.320 --> 0:49:26.040 synthesize from multiple accounts, including Clinton's and Bowden's and a 0:49:26.080 --> 0:49:29.480 few other things I've read. But it seems that, for 0:49:29.600 --> 0:49:35.799 one thing, the Secret Rights probably involved some reenactment of 0:49:35.880 --> 0:49:41.080 the myth of Demeter and Corey. Now it's questionable to 0:49:41.200 --> 0:49:44.799 what extent it followed the story completely, which parts of 0:49:44.800 --> 0:49:47.840 the story were represented, and what version of the story 0:49:47.840 --> 0:49:51.120 you got, but there are multiple clues pointing to the 0:49:51.200 --> 0:49:55.240 idea that some version of this story is being re enacted, 0:49:55.360 --> 0:49:59.000 at least in part in these rituals. This could include 0:49:59.080 --> 0:50:03.960 wandering around in the darkness, like searching for the kidnapped 0:50:04.040 --> 0:50:08.520 daughter after her disappearance, possibly witnessing or hearing the grief 0:50:08.560 --> 0:50:12.800 stricken cries of Demeter. For at least part of the ritual, 0:50:13.320 --> 0:50:16.720 initiates may have been blindfolded or shrouded with a hood. 0:50:16.800 --> 0:50:20.480 Ancient authors make reference to something about this where they 0:50:20.520 --> 0:50:23.160 would probably be guided by their mystagogue, you know, the 0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:27.040 more experienced guide would show them the way to go 0:50:27.440 --> 0:50:30.399 while they were baffled and you know, and they didn't 0:50:30.400 --> 0:50:33.640 know where to go, stumbling around in the dark, and 0:50:33.800 --> 0:50:37.360 all of this before the initiates were eventually made aware 0:50:37.440 --> 0:50:40.640 somehow of the reunion of mother and daughter of Demeter 0:50:40.800 --> 0:50:43.480 and Corey at the end of the myth, and then 0:50:43.600 --> 0:50:47.239 finally brought into the hall, like coming out of the 0:50:47.320 --> 0:50:51.480 darkness into a hall brightly illuminated by torches for a 0:50:51.560 --> 0:50:56.439 celebration and revealing of things hidden. Now again, those last 0:50:56.480 --> 0:50:59.120 parts are they seem reasonable based on what we know, 0:50:59.200 --> 0:51:01.359 but we don't know for sure. That's the form it took. 0:51:01.640 --> 0:51:03.920 Torches seem to play a role. There are a lot 0:51:04.120 --> 0:51:07.680 There are a lot of mentions of darkness and blindfoldedness 0:51:07.719 --> 0:51:11.040 and agony and struggles in the darkness and then coming 0:51:11.080 --> 0:51:11.680 into the light. 0:51:12.239 --> 0:51:14.680 You know, this brings me back. We talked again talking 0:51:14.680 --> 0:51:18.520 about haunted attractions and how you do encounter some that 0:51:18.600 --> 0:51:22.040 are church affiliated. I have distinct memories of going to 0:51:22.080 --> 0:51:25.360 one as when I was a youth. There's a rural 0:51:26.760 --> 0:51:31.919 Southern church affiliated haunted house. And at the end, as 0:51:31.960 --> 0:51:35.560 you wandered or perhaps rushed out of the darkness pursued 0:51:35.600 --> 0:51:39.000 by chainsaws and the like, where do you enter into 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:42.080 You enter into a tent where a preacher is then 0:51:42.160 --> 0:51:46.560 going to speak to you and sell you on eternal 0:51:46.600 --> 0:51:50.520 salvation and of course the the alternatives that you just 0:51:50.560 --> 0:51:51.800 witnessed in the haunted house. 0:51:52.640 --> 0:51:56.200 Yeah, so that that that high contrast creates an intensity, 0:51:56.480 --> 0:52:01.400 like an emotional motivation and intensity of experience that really 0:52:02.000 --> 0:52:04.879 I don't know. In this case, again, we've already noted 0:52:04.880 --> 0:52:08.280 the difference between like the Christian hell House or whatever 0:52:08.360 --> 0:52:12.239 variation there where the goal is to I don't want 0:52:12.239 --> 0:52:14.560 to oversimplify, but I think it's fair to say usually 0:52:14.560 --> 0:52:16.239 at least the goal there is going to be to 0:52:16.360 --> 0:52:19.880 convert you into the doctrinal form of that religion, to say, like, 0:52:20.200 --> 0:52:23.440 you belong to us. Now you've been convinced by witnessing 0:52:23.440 --> 0:52:26.319 these horrors, you need to go to our church. That 0:52:26.440 --> 0:52:31.560 does not necessarily seem to be the goal here. I 0:52:31.560 --> 0:52:35.080 don't detect based on what I've read that the purpose 0:52:35.480 --> 0:52:38.799 of the mysteries is a persuasive one that you need 0:52:38.840 --> 0:52:42.359 to like join the cult of ill usis though, I mean, 0:52:42.400 --> 0:52:44.480 I guess the people who are who go through as 0:52:44.560 --> 0:52:48.480 misdays the first time, and this is a distinction. The 0:52:48.520 --> 0:52:51.080 first time you are initiated the mysteries, you were known 0:52:51.080 --> 0:52:54.680 as misty's or mistace, a term which seems to derive 0:52:54.719 --> 0:52:58.239 from the concept of having one's eyes closed, and then 0:52:58.280 --> 0:53:01.800 you would usually come back second time, and then you 0:53:01.840 --> 0:53:05.360 would be known as epop dase, which means look or viewer, 0:53:06.560 --> 0:53:10.320 So there is a kind of return and the difference 0:53:10.320 --> 0:53:12.800 between those terms is interesting too, by the way, because 0:53:13.239 --> 0:53:16.319 the difference between like mistase meaning eyes closed and a 0:53:16.360 --> 0:53:19.640 pop dase meaning looking or viewing that could of course 0:53:19.680 --> 0:53:21.759 be literal like maybe the first time you do it 0:53:21.760 --> 0:53:24.400 you are blindfolded or hooded and the second time you 0:53:24.440 --> 0:53:28.919 can look, or maybe there are particular elements that two 0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:32.239 time initiates are particular permitted to look upon that first 0:53:32.239 --> 0:53:35.360 time initiates or not. But this difference could also just 0:53:35.400 --> 0:53:38.760 refer to a kind of metaphorical perspective on what is happening. 0:53:38.880 --> 0:53:42.280 The same way that we say to have previous experience 0:53:42.360 --> 0:53:45.080 with something is to go into it with open eyes. 0:53:47.560 --> 0:53:49.880 For anyone out there who's listening with I don't know 0:53:49.920 --> 0:53:51.720 if this is really a listen with the whole family 0:53:51.760 --> 0:53:54.160 sort of episode, but in the case event that you are, 0:53:54.360 --> 0:53:58.239 I'm about to throw out some Christmas spoilers, so feel 0:53:58.239 --> 0:54:01.160 free to skip a bit if you if you wish. 0:54:01.719 --> 0:54:05.520 But this also reminds me of the way that some 0:54:05.640 --> 0:54:10.680 parents approach Santa Claus and Christmas traditions, the idea of 0:54:10.719 --> 0:54:14.920 being that instead of just not doing them or trying 0:54:14.960 --> 0:54:18.560 to keep the myth and the or the fiction of 0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:24.560 Santa Claus going like well beyond it's a healthy phase. Instead, 0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:26.680 you kind of break it down like this, where it 0:54:26.760 --> 0:54:29.040 is kind of treated like a mystery when the child 0:54:29.160 --> 0:54:31.400 is young, and then when the child reaches a certain age, 0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:33.960 it's like, now you were part of the mystery, and 0:54:34.000 --> 0:54:37.799 now you can help create this mystery for perhaps younger siblings, 0:54:37.920 --> 0:54:40.680 other young people you know in the family or in 0:54:40.680 --> 0:54:43.360 the community, and so forth. And perhaps this is like 0:54:43.400 --> 0:54:48.000 a less doctrinal example compared to the Haunted House thing, 0:54:48.640 --> 0:54:52.520 because I guess there's not really a doctrine regarding Santa 0:54:52.560 --> 0:54:55.120 that is being pursued in the long run, though it 0:54:55.160 --> 0:54:57.839 is of course more certainly like narrative and so forth. 0:54:58.520 --> 0:55:00.960 And I guess perhaps the Santa Clause example is better 0:55:01.000 --> 0:55:03.480 than the Haunted House example, because Santa Claus, there's not 0:55:03.560 --> 0:55:05.920 really a doctrine there that we're trying to drive home 0:55:05.960 --> 0:55:08.279 into children, aside from be good or else. 0:55:08.320 --> 0:55:11.360 I guess, yeah, Oh, but I guess I got sidetracked 0:55:11.440 --> 0:55:16.320 there talking about the mystas versus the apoptase from talking 0:55:16.320 --> 0:55:18.800 about how generally it seems like there is a difference 0:55:18.840 --> 0:55:23.360 between the hell house model and the mystery religion model because, 0:55:23.520 --> 0:55:26.359 or at least this particular case, because in the all 0:55:26.440 --> 0:55:30.279 Useenian mysteries, it's like the experience is the point. It's 0:55:30.280 --> 0:55:32.840 not just like a persuasive act to get you to 0:55:32.880 --> 0:55:37.799 do something else different. Right. Another interesting passage that is 0:55:37.840 --> 0:55:42.719 often cited in historical writing about the mystery religions is 0:55:42.760 --> 0:55:48.200 from Plutarch. Or Plutarch characterizes the mysteries generally by way 0:55:48.360 --> 0:55:52.280 of metaphor. What he's actually talking about is what happens 0:55:52.320 --> 0:55:54.799 to the soul at the end of life. But he's 0:55:54.800 --> 0:55:56.759 sort of saying, you know, what happens to the soul 0:55:56.760 --> 0:55:58.440 at the end of life is much like what you 0:55:58.520 --> 0:56:02.520 all know happens after you're iniated into the mysteries. And 0:56:02.960 --> 0:56:05.239 to be clear, he doesn't say specifically he's talking about 0:56:05.239 --> 0:56:07.960 the Eleusinian mysteries, but he probably is. These were the 0:56:08.000 --> 0:56:13.400 most famous. So what Plutarch says is quote, wandering astray 0:56:13.480 --> 0:56:17.760 in the beginning, tiresome walkings in circles, some frightening paths 0:56:17.800 --> 0:56:21.480 in darkness that lead nowhere. Then immediately before the end, 0:56:21.560 --> 0:56:25.920 all the terrible things, panic and shivering and sweat and bewilderment, 0:56:26.320 --> 0:56:29.560 and then some wonderful light comes to meet you. Purer 0:56:29.640 --> 0:56:32.720 regions and meadows are there to greet you with sounds 0:56:32.760 --> 0:56:36.799 and dances and solemn sacred words and holy views. And 0:56:37.040 --> 0:56:40.320 there the initiate, perfect by, now set free and loose 0:56:40.320 --> 0:56:44.239 from all bondage, walks about, crowned with a wreath, celebrating 0:56:44.239 --> 0:56:47.280 the festival together with the other sacred and pure people. 0:56:47.520 --> 0:56:51.239 And he looks down on the uninitiated, unpurified crowd in 0:56:51.280 --> 0:56:55.960 this world in mud and fog beneath his feet. Oh wow, 0:56:56.800 --> 0:57:00.799 So that square somewhat with what we've already talked about, 0:57:00.800 --> 0:57:04.279 like this feeling of lightness and sort of ascension that 0:57:04.440 --> 0:57:06.920 comes with having gone through the mysteries. There is some 0:57:07.320 --> 0:57:10.200 lasting effect on people that they cite that they say 0:57:10.280 --> 0:57:13.400 is very powerful and makes them feel better, makes them 0:57:13.480 --> 0:57:18.160 feel unafraid, set loose in some way, perfected in some way. 0:57:19.200 --> 0:57:21.440 But I also like the first half of this passage, 0:57:21.800 --> 0:57:25.720 where it seems to be more describing, just in general 0:57:25.760 --> 0:57:28.560 and emotional terms, what the experience of going through the 0:57:28.600 --> 0:57:34.680 mysteries is like. And it's one that begins with confusion, bafflement, exhaustion, 0:57:34.880 --> 0:57:49.560 and suffering and ends with hope and cathartic relief. And 0:57:49.600 --> 0:57:51.480 so I guess this brings us to the question of 0:57:51.680 --> 0:57:55.480 what did the mysteries mean to the people who practiced 0:57:55.520 --> 0:58:00.200 them Abouten explores this at length in his book Discuss 0:58:00.280 --> 0:58:03.560 As we've already alluded to the possibility that the meaning 0:58:03.800 --> 0:58:07.680 of the mysteries was not made explicit. Instead, like the 0:58:08.000 --> 0:58:12.560 standard model of the imagistic mode of religion, it's sort 0:58:12.600 --> 0:58:17.320 of left ambiguous. It invites participants to reflect later and 0:58:17.400 --> 0:58:21.040 contemplate to figure out for themselves what it means. And 0:58:21.240 --> 0:58:23.560 that's very interesting to me too, because I mean a 0:58:23.720 --> 0:58:28.760 huge part actually of what religion is, at least in 0:58:28.800 --> 0:58:32.680 my experience, is exegesis on what things mean. It's like, 0:58:32.760 --> 0:58:37.640 you know, religions have, or many religions have. You know, 0:58:37.680 --> 0:58:40.960 they have contents, they may have texts and stories, they 0:58:40.960 --> 0:58:45.200 may have physical objects or places, they have rituals, and 0:58:45.240 --> 0:58:50.360 there's just so much effort devoted to clarifying what everything means. 0:58:50.440 --> 0:58:52.880 And that that's what a lot of people want out 0:58:52.880 --> 0:58:55.480 of religion today. You know, they want to understand how, what, 0:58:55.720 --> 0:58:58.280 why we do it? What how to make sense of it? 0:58:58.880 --> 0:59:01.480 But this version of religion may have been a kind 0:59:01.480 --> 0:59:05.520 of different one where it's like, instead, you witness something 0:59:05.840 --> 0:59:11.080 and you go through something is strange and overwhelming and powerful, 0:59:11.080 --> 0:59:13.200 and then you're kind of just sent home to make 0:59:13.240 --> 0:59:14.160 your own sense of it. 0:59:14.480 --> 0:59:18.160 Yeah. I mean it's kind of like abstract art and 0:59:18.200 --> 0:59:22.200 abstract cinema at its best, right where there's you go 0:59:22.280 --> 0:59:25.520 into it without any kind of expectations, you leave it 0:59:25.600 --> 0:59:31.440 without any i would say, prescribed interpretations. You know, you're 0:59:31.520 --> 0:59:34.160 left to try and figure out what it possibly meant 0:59:34.160 --> 0:59:36.600 all on your own, and maybe it meant nothing, but 0:59:36.680 --> 0:59:37.520 you won't forget it. 0:59:38.840 --> 0:59:41.920 Kevin Clinton in his chapter writes, relying in part on 0:59:41.960 --> 0:59:45.760 his own hypothetical reconstruction of the rituals. So the following 0:59:45.800 --> 0:59:50.680 passage does include some assumptions based on guesses, but reasonable guesses, 0:59:51.640 --> 0:59:56.040 so Clinton writes, quote, the mysteria revealed simple things like 0:59:56.080 --> 0:59:58.840 the return of a lost daughter to her mother, a 0:59:58.920 --> 1:00:04.000 goddess insight, differing parentheses, an extraordinary state for a Greek 1:00:04.000 --> 1:00:07.960 god or goddess, joy that accompanies the appearance of grain, 1:00:08.640 --> 1:00:13.800 the grain that is plutos, meaning wealth, the agrarian prosperity 1:00:13.880 --> 1:00:18.000 that sustains family and clan, all simple things that at 1:00:18.000 --> 1:00:22.040 the same time had profound significance. The impact lay in 1:00:22.120 --> 1:00:26.200 part in the dramatic presentation, which was an essential aspect 1:00:26.360 --> 1:00:31.000 of the experience. And that kind of takes me to 1:00:31.040 --> 1:00:33.840 another place, which is it makes me think I've been 1:00:33.880 --> 1:00:36.560 thinking about this primarily from the point of view of 1:00:36.680 --> 1:00:39.760 the new initiate, the mistas or the apoptes, you know, 1:00:39.840 --> 1:00:42.240 who's for the first or second time going through the 1:00:42.240 --> 1:00:44.960 greater mysteries and experiencing it and seeing what it means. 1:00:46.200 --> 1:00:48.280 But this kind of makes me think about it from 1:00:48.280 --> 1:00:50.640 the point of view of the priesthood. Say you are 1:00:50.960 --> 1:00:53.520 a hierophant or you're one of the people whose job 1:00:53.520 --> 1:00:57.680 it is to put on the show of the Eleusinian mysteries. 1:00:58.120 --> 1:01:00.960 It seems actually there's quite a bur there's quite a 1:01:00.960 --> 1:01:05.040 burden to put on a good show, because are people 1:01:05.080 --> 1:01:07.919 are sort of relying on the fact that you put 1:01:07.960 --> 1:01:11.480 on a good show in order to find meaning in 1:01:11.520 --> 1:01:14.600 their life, to escape their fear of death, to feel 1:01:14.640 --> 1:01:17.760 like their life will have blessings yet to come, and 1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:21.840 they fit in a divine order, which is fascinating. And 1:01:21.880 --> 1:01:24.920 I guess something that people I don't know religious performers 1:01:24.960 --> 1:01:28.280 and in other situations probably do feel a similar kind 1:01:28.280 --> 1:01:34.280 of obligation. But it again made all the more alluring 1:01:34.320 --> 1:01:36.640 in this case because of the power of the secrecy, 1:01:36.800 --> 1:01:39.240 because there thing we still don't know. There's some things 1:01:39.240 --> 1:01:41.480 we don't know. We don't know exactly what they were doing, 1:01:41.520 --> 1:01:43.920 and it's like it's agonizing. You want to know, but 1:01:44.320 --> 1:01:44.760 we can't. 1:01:45.080 --> 1:01:47.040 Yeah, we want it all laid out, like from a 1:01:47.120 --> 1:01:51.640 historical standpoint, from an anthropology of religion standpoint, we want 1:01:51.680 --> 1:01:53.480 to know, like what were the things that were believe, 1:01:53.560 --> 1:01:56.400 what were the things that were enacted, and what was 1:01:56.440 --> 1:02:00.320 the import of those things? And for varying reasons. We 1:02:00.400 --> 1:02:03.520 have a lot of holes, all right. Well, on that note, 1:02:03.560 --> 1:02:05.280 we're going to go ahead and close out this episode, 1:02:05.320 --> 1:02:08.040 but we have decided we will come back with at 1:02:08.160 --> 1:02:11.400 least a fourth episode on the mystery cults, and it 1:02:11.440 --> 1:02:13.520 may not be the next episode of Stuff to Blow 1:02:13.560 --> 1:02:17.720 Your Mind. It may occur after that. So in the 1:02:17.760 --> 1:02:21.280 not too distant future you will encounter a fourth episode 1:02:21.280 --> 1:02:24.720 and we'll continue this fascinating discussion. There are so many 1:02:24.800 --> 1:02:26.680 different mystery cults and we're not going to be able 1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:28.640 to discuss all of them, and we're of course not 1:02:28.680 --> 1:02:32.720 going to get into everything that Balden discusses in his book. Again, 1:02:33.280 --> 1:02:35.240 we do highly recommend you check that out if you 1:02:35.280 --> 1:02:37.560 are interested in the topic. The title of that book 1:02:37.600 --> 1:02:41.400 again is Mystery Cults in the Ancient World by Hugh Bowden. 1:02:42.480 --> 1:02:45.080 In the meantime, we'd like to remind everyone that's Stuff 1:02:45.080 --> 1:02:47.800 to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, 1:02:47.840 --> 1:02:50.640 with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We have a 1:02:50.680 --> 1:02:53.240 short form episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays, we set 1:02:53.280 --> 1:02:55.920 aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird 1:02:56.040 --> 1:02:58.680 film on Weird House Cinema. 1:02:58.600 --> 1:03:02.160 Huge things, As always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 1:03:02.480 --> 1:03:03.960 If you would like to get in touch with us 1:03:03.960 --> 1:03:06.440 with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 1:03:06.440 --> 1:03:08.479 a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 1:03:08.800 --> 1:03:11.560 you can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your 1:03:11.560 --> 1:03:20.280 Mind dot com. 1:03:20.400 --> 1:03:23.320 Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 1:03:23.440 --> 1:03:26.200 more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 1:03:26.360 --> 1:03:42.920 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.