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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. Today is a Saturday, so we have

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Speaker 1: a vault episode for you. This is part three of

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Speaker 1: four in our Mystery cult series that originally published three six,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. Let's dive in.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with

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Speaker 3: part three in our discussion of the mystery cults of

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Speaker 3: the ancient Mediterranean. Mystery cults are religions that are differentiated

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Speaker 3: from the mainstream public cults of the Greco Roman world because,

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Speaker 3: instead of focusing on the regular transactional tending to the

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Speaker 3: needs of the gods through ritual and sacrifice, mystery cults

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Speaker 3: were centered around the performance of secret mystic rites, which

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Speaker 3: were usually revealed only to the cult's initiates, and which

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Speaker 3: were often described as intense sensory experiences involving direct contact

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Speaker 3: with the power of the gods. In Part one of

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Speaker 3: this series, we talked mainly about the historical context of

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Speaker 3: the mysteries and how they differed from the most common

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Speaker 3: religious practices of Greek and Roman polytheism. And then in

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Speaker 3: part two we looked at a couple of specific examples.

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Speaker 3: We looked at Mithraism, a mystery cult that flourished in

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Speaker 3: the Roman Empire, especially among members of the Roman army,

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Speaker 3: from roughly the first through the fourth century CE. And

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Speaker 3: then also we started talking about what was the most

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Speaker 3: famous and probably the most revered mystery cult for hundreds

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Speaker 3: of years among the Greeks and Romans, which was the

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Speaker 3: festival of the Eleusinian Mysteries, the Secret Rites, which took

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Speaker 3: place in Eleusis, which was about twenty three kilometers west

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Speaker 3: of the center of ancient Athens. And we are back

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Speaker 3: today to talk about.

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Speaker 1: More, all right.

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Speaker 3: So in the last episode we had to leave off

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Speaker 3: in the middle of our discussion of the Elusinian Mysteries

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Speaker 3: because we ran out of time. So I think that's

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Speaker 3: where we should jump back in today. We can start

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Speaker 3: off with that subject. We already talked last time about

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Speaker 3: the story of Demeter and Persephone, which is the primary

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Speaker 3: myth associated with the cult. Particularly we're focused on the

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Speaker 3: version told in the sixth or seventh century BCE Dactylic

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Speaker 3: Hexameter or poem known as the Homeric Hymn to Demeter,

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Speaker 3: and I'll do a brief summary to refresh. In this story,

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Speaker 3: Demeter's daughter Demeter is the goddess of course, of grain

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Speaker 3: and agriculture. Demeter's daughter Persephone called Cory meaning maiden in

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Speaker 3: inscriptions associated with Eleusis, is kidnapped to the underworld by Hades,

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Speaker 3: the out of the dead, and the grief stricken Demeter

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Speaker 3: searches for her around the world in vain. Along the way,

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Speaker 3: she has interactions with the royal family of Eleusis, including

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Speaker 3: a thwarted attempt to transform a baby prince named Demophoon

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Speaker 3: into an immortal, after which Demeter demands that the people

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Speaker 3: of that place build her a temple and performs special

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Speaker 3: rites for her which they are not allowed to depart from,

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Speaker 3: ask questions about, or broadcast to the uninitiated. Eventually, in

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Speaker 3: the story the daughter Corey or again that's the same

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Speaker 3: character as Persephone and other tellings, Corey is permitted to

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Speaker 3: leave the underworld, but because she has eaten of the

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Speaker 3: fruit of Hades, she cannot leave forever and must spend

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Speaker 3: part of every year back in the realm of the dead.

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Speaker 3: And this myth is often tied to seasonal cycles of

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Speaker 3: growth and harvest.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we can't stress in enough everyone. If you venture

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Speaker 1: into a spirit realm, don't eat anything. Yeah, exactly comes

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Speaker 1: up time and time again.

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Speaker 3: You gotta know the rules of the underworld. This came

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Speaker 3: up in another ancient poem we were talking about. Oh,

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Speaker 3: I think it's the poem of Gilgamesh and key Do

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Speaker 3: in the nether World, where in key Do loses some

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Speaker 3: stuff down like it falls into the nether world and

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Speaker 3: he has to go down to get it, and Gilgamesh

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Speaker 3: is like, look, you gotta do all these things right.

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Speaker 3: You don't wear certain kinds of clothes, you don't clap

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Speaker 3: too loud or shout too loud. All this stuff will

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Speaker 3: attract negative attention down there. And then in Kedo just

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Speaker 3: does it all wrong and he gets stuck. I don't

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Speaker 3: know what the other rules for Persephone would have been,

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Speaker 3: apart from donate to pomegranate seed, but presumably there are

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Speaker 3: other rules as well. But anyway, we also talked last time,

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Speaker 3: not just about the myth itself, but about some things

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Speaker 3: ancient writers said about the effect of taking part in

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Speaker 3: the rights of ilusis. Many writers are, of course reluctant

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Speaker 3: to share anything about the secret rituals themselves lest they

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Speaker 3: profane them. You don't talk about the mysteries. That's part

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Speaker 3: of what Demeter said, no talking about this, But they

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Speaker 3: do mention that the effect on the person who takes

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Speaker 3: part is a profound one and a positive one. To

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Speaker 3: illustrate that, I found the following passage from a dialogue

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Speaker 3: of Cicero called on the Laws, where a character in

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Speaker 3: this dialogue is talking about the mysteries and says, as follows,

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Speaker 3: much that is excellent and divine does Athens seem to

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Speaker 3: me to have produced and added to our life, But

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Speaker 3: nothing better than those mysteries by which we are formed

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Speaker 3: and molded from a rude and savage state of humanity.

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Speaker 3: And indeed, in the mysteries we perceive the real principles

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Speaker 3: of life and learn not only to live happily, but

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Speaker 3: to die with a fairer hope. So what does taking

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Speaker 3: part in the mysteries do for us? It seems that

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Speaker 3: it causes us to ascend from a rough, crude state

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Speaker 3: of existence, maybe an animalistic state of existence, into a

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Speaker 3: more refined type of being. Maybe it civilizes us in

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Speaker 3: some way. And this connects to something I've seen in

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Speaker 3: a few other sources having to do with the grain

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Speaker 3: and agriculture significance of the myth, that there's something about

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Speaker 3: the mysteries which is tied to the gift of agriculture,

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Speaker 3: of growing grain and the fruits of the harvest to

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Speaker 3: humans from the gods. And thus it's sort of like

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Speaker 3: perceived that that is the thing which separates us from

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Speaker 3: the animals. But beyond that, the mysteries also show us

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Speaker 3: what life is really about, or sort of the originating

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Speaker 3: principles of life. It makes us happier in this life,

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Speaker 3: and it makes us hope for better things after death.

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Speaker 3: And the last point has an interesting resonance. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if we alluded to this when we were talking

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Speaker 3: about the myth in full, but of course, Persephone known

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Speaker 3: as Corey in the inscriptions at Ilus, she is the

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Speaker 3: queen of the underworld, you know, so she's going to

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Speaker 3: be down there at least part of the year in

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Speaker 3: the nether world. I wonder if that has something to

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Speaker 3: do with the relationship between the mysteries and the fate

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Speaker 3: of the dead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, she ends up with like a foot in

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Speaker 1: both worlds. In the agricultural world, and then also in

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Speaker 1: the world of death in the afterlife, that's who you

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Speaker 1: want to get in good with a transitional being that

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Speaker 1: understands your world as well as the next world.

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Speaker 3: Though to be fair that that connection might just be

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Speaker 3: a coincidence. I mean, it is possible also that those

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Speaker 3: who have experienced the mysteries might expect a better fate

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Speaker 3: in the afterlife simply because they have some kind of

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Speaker 3: deeper connection with the power of the gods. They have

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Speaker 3: more God intimacy in general than people who have not

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Speaker 3: had who have not gone through the mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, or I mean, you know, to sort of

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Speaker 1: couch it in some sort of modern language, we could

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Speaker 1: say that at least while you're going through these, you're

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Speaker 1: very much living in the now. So that's got to

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Speaker 1: at least have a temporary effect on any anxieties you

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Speaker 1: have about the future.

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Speaker 3: Well certainly, yeah, while you're doing the rights themselves. But

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Speaker 3: I mean, to be clear, these authors do talk about

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Speaker 3: it as having a lasting effect, one that follows you home.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And I think, you know, there's probably a

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Speaker 1: case to be maybe if you couple a sensational experience

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Speaker 1: with those elements of at least temporarily exiting your anxieties.

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Speaker 1: This could be the essentially the cocktail recipe for some

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Speaker 1: sort of lasting change.

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Speaker 3: Now, before I move on, I want to mention a

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Speaker 3: couple of my major sources. One is a book we've

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Speaker 3: already talked about in this series by a scholar named

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Speaker 3: Hugh Bowden called Mystery Cults in the Ancient World the

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Speaker 3: Times and Hudson twenty twenty three edition, a Bowden being

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Speaker 3: an ancient historian affiliated with King's College, London. But I

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Speaker 3: also wanted to point to a chapter in The Wily

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Speaker 3: Companion to Greek Religion edited by Daniel Ogden. The chapter

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Speaker 3: is called the Mysteries of Demeter and Corey, and it

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Speaker 3: is by Kevin Clinton, who is a professor emeritus of

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Speaker 3: Classics at Cornell. Both very good resources on the Eleusinian mysteries,

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Speaker 3: and I'll refer back to both authors several more times. Now,

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Speaker 3: moving beyond what we've already talked about the myth and

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Speaker 3: the effect on people, what do we actually know and

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Speaker 3: what can we reasonably guess about the form the mysteries took?

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Speaker 3: What were these powerful rights? Well, there are some things

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Speaker 3: the sort of public elements of the festival, the associated

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Speaker 3: festival that we do know with a good bit of certainty,

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Speaker 3: and we'll move from what we know more about what

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Speaker 3: we know less about. The Eleusinian Mysteries were celebrated in

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Speaker 3: stages that took place at different times of the year.

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Speaker 3: So scholars think there was a primary stage of celebration,

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Speaker 3: known as the Lesser Mysteries, which were held at a

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Speaker 3: place called Agrai within the city of Athens around the

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Speaker 3: end of the winter beginning of spring, so our February

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Speaker 3: March season, and that was a different, separate thing, but

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Speaker 3: people usually did this before the main thing, which was

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Speaker 3: the Greater Mysteries, which took place between Athens and Eleusis

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Speaker 3: during the autumn around our months of September October. Clues

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Speaker 3: from the literature of the time indicate that people generally

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Speaker 3: participated in the lesser mysteries before doing the greater mysteries,

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Speaker 3: and the total festival of the Greater Mysteries lasted eight

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Speaker 3: days and began with public events. So when we talk

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Speaker 3: about the secret rights, it's not like the whole thing

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Speaker 3: of the Elusinian Mysteries were secret rights. It was just

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Speaker 3: like one sort of climactic part of the festival was

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Speaker 3: made up of the secret rights. You had lots of

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Speaker 3: public events that included sacrifices to various gods. There was

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Speaker 3: a process of preparation and purification of the initiates, the

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Speaker 3: people who wanted to be initiated into the cult. There

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Speaker 3: was a solemn march from the center of Athens to Eleusis,

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Speaker 3: and then finally you would get to the secret rights

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Speaker 3: inside a closed hall of initiation called the Telesterion, which

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Speaker 3: was the sort of big central building inside the sanctuary

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Speaker 3: of Demeter and Corey in Ilusis. It's hard to say

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Speaker 3: exactly when these festivals began and when they ended in history,

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Speaker 3: but we know a couple of things to sort of

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Speaker 3: set the maximal boundaries in time. While the archaeological record

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Speaker 3: in the area directly around the sanctuary goes all the

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Speaker 3: way back to the Bronze Age, it appears to have

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Speaker 3: been abandoned for some time around twelve hundred BCE, and

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Speaker 3: then the site was continuously occupied beginning sometime in the

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Speaker 3: eighth century BCE for hundreds of years after that, and

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Speaker 3: then we know that the rights probably continued no later

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Speaker 3: than the end of the fourth century CE, when Eleusis

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Speaker 3: was destroyed by the Goths, and after this there appears

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Speaker 3: to have been known attempt to rebuild the sanctuary. By

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Speaker 3: this time, the Roman Empire would have been largely Christian anyway,

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Speaker 3: and you know that would have produced some severe friction

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Speaker 3: for the cult of Ilusus.

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Speaker 1: And we'll come back to the twilight of the mystery

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Speaker 1: cults here in a bit.

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Speaker 3: Now. An interesting thing is that during the time the

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Speaker 3: cult was in operation, lots of famous people in the

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Speaker 3: ancient world, including authors that we would read, including multiple

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Speaker 3: Roman emperors like Augustus Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius, made the

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Speaker 3: trip to Eleusis to be initiated into the mysteries, and

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Speaker 3: that in itself kind of highlights a curious fact. While

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Speaker 3: the core rights themselves, the mysteries were secret and you

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Speaker 3: couldn't share them with outsiders, people would come from all

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Speaker 3: over to be initiated, So it seems that the secret

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Speaker 3: rituals were in a way more kind of open, more

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Speaker 3: kind of globally open to participation then many of the public,

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Speaker 3: the so called public cults of the Greco Roman world

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Speaker 3: would be, which many of which were quite locally focused.

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Speaker 3: So for most of the time the mysteries existed. It

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Speaker 3: seems that anywhere, anyone from anywhere was allowed to come

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Speaker 3: and be initiated as long as they met a couple

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Speaker 3: of criteria. They had to speak Greek or be a

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Speaker 3: Roman later on under the Roman Empire, and they had

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Speaker 3: to have not committed murder. And if you met those criteria,

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Speaker 3: you could you could be initiated, you could learn the

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Speaker 3: you could learn the secrets, you could take part in

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Speaker 3: the mysteries.

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Speaker 1: And I assume you could lie about the second one,

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Speaker 1: or it could be left up to your interpretation what

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Speaker 1: murder was. It's not like you had like a designated

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Speaker 1: punch card that you would have to show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess. I guess. The question is like, do

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Speaker 3: do local people know that you committed murder? Right? Did

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Speaker 3: you commit murder anywhere around Athens?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Okay, So what else do we know about what took

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Speaker 3: place around the mysteries? Here again, I'm drawing large from Bowden,

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Speaker 3: trying to pull together all these facts. One thing is that,

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Speaker 3: going back to what I was just saying about people

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Speaker 3: coming from all over before the festivities began in the autumn,

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Speaker 3: a truce went out through the Greek cities ensuring that

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Speaker 3: anyone who wanted to be able to come to the mysteries,

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Speaker 3: could travel safely to Athens to take part, so a

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Speaker 3: kind of period of sanctuary on travel around the area.

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Speaker 3: We also know something about the rights involving specific sacred

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Speaker 3: objects called heira or hyra. I'm sorry I did not

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Speaker 3: look up which way to say that. It's h i

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Speaker 3: e r A. I'm going to say hira for now.

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Speaker 3: These were carried in enclosed vessels tied with a red ribbon,

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Speaker 3: and they were carried in a ceremonial procession by the

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Speaker 3: priests of Ilusus, first two Athens at the beginning of

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Speaker 3: the festival, and then back to Illuses for the end.

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Speaker 3: So what were these sacred hidden objects? That was one

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Speaker 3: of the secrets you don't get to know. Inside the Telesterion.

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Speaker 3: The objects would probably be shown and interacted with in

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Speaker 3: some way by the initiates, but writer sympathetic to the

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Speaker 3: mysteries do not tell us what these sacred objects were.

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Speaker 3: Bowden argues that the hiro were probably not statues of

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Speaker 3: Demeter and Corey like you might get with other cults.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it would be very common for other public

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Speaker 3: cults in the Greco Roman world to have a cult

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Speaker 3: statue that you might even in some cases if it

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Speaker 3: was small enough take out and carry in a parade.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't seem to be the case here. Instead, the

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Speaker 3: priests were probably bearing some collection of small sacred objects

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Speaker 3: which represented the goddesses in some way. One Christian writer

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Speaker 3: from the ancient world, writing against so called heresies, claims

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Speaker 3: that the main secret object was an ear of grain.

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Speaker 3: So we don't know if this is correct or not,

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Speaker 3: but that would not be weird for grain imagery to

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Speaker 3: be used in these rituals, given the role of demeter.

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Speaker 3: It seems plausible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like the ritual and the storytelling would

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Speaker 1: really have to do the heavy lifting if the sacred

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Speaker 1: object was just the grain, though there had to be

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Speaker 1: other objects as well. Right, here's a piece of wheat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, but something we'll get into in a

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Speaker 3: minute here is you can present a sheaf of wheat

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Speaker 3: in a much more or much less dramatic fashion.

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Speaker 1: That's right. The presentation is everything.

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Speaker 3: Yes. Another thing we know is that the procession of

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Speaker 3: the sacred objects between the cities got an armed escort

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Speaker 3: made of young men from Athens, so they were well guarded,

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Speaker 3: and the initiates were generally understood to have to do

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Speaker 3: some stuff beforehand before you go into the greater mysteries.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it was actually required, but it

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Speaker 3: seems at least customary that people would usually go through

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Speaker 3: the lesser mysteries at Agri first. Agra is another place nearby,

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Speaker 3: sort of within in the city of Athens uh And

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Speaker 3: people seemingly did these other things before they went to

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Speaker 3: the greater mysteries. But it is hard to say for sure.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot we don't know about the lesser mysteries.

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Speaker 3: They're kind of passing references to them. This is one

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Speaker 3: thing I brought up in the last episode, where like

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Speaker 3: in a dialogue of Plato, Socrates just says to somebody

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Speaker 3: by point of comparison that like they figured out something

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Speaker 3: big before they figured out something small. They say, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, you've been initiated to the greater mysteries before

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Speaker 3: the lesser mysteries. I didn't know you could do that.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is not the first time I was

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Speaker 1: reminded of this. I've thought about this a little bit

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Speaker 1: in the last episode, but I was thinking about side shows.

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Speaker 1: You know, you would have your main circus and then

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Speaker 1: you would have the side show, which might have things

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Speaker 1: that were a little more specialized in maybe less public interest.

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Speaker 1: They might be, you know, have more to do with

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Speaker 1: you know, human a normaladies or other curios or you know,

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Speaker 1: fake specimens of imaginary creatures. And it seems like you

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Speaker 1: could at least compare this a little bit to the

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Speaker 1: idea of lesser and greater mysteries. You go through one,

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Speaker 1: then you go through the other, and there are variations

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Speaker 1: of this and other elements of entertainment. We kept talking

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Speaker 1: about haunted attractions or haunted houses, and one of the

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Speaker 1: big ones we have in the Atlanta area has almost

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Speaker 1: always two houses. There's the one larger house and then

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Speaker 1: there's a smaller secondary house, which is generally like a

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Speaker 1: little harder in its horror, a lot more chainsaws and

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Speaker 1: blood and stuff. So you know, you have one set

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Speaker 1: of sensational experiences you might have, and then there's like

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Speaker 1: another the next level you go to if you dare

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Speaker 1: that's right.

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Speaker 3: And again I do not have direct evidence, and none

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Speaker 3: of the authors I read seem to indicate that we

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Speaker 3: know you had to do the lesser mysteries first. Instead,

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Speaker 3: it seems more like it was just understood that if

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Speaker 3: you were going to do them both, you would do

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Speaker 3: the lesser first. There was no reason to do the

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Speaker 3: greater and then do the lesser.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, lacking full context and understanding again of the mysteries,

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Speaker 1: it seems like I feel like a jerk if I

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Speaker 1: just did the greater mysteries and not the lesser mysteries,

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Speaker 1: or if I'd done the lesser mysteries before, I might

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Speaker 1: want to like refresh. It's like watching season one before

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Speaker 1: before season two comes out, right, you want to rewatch it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. According to Plutarch, there is this it seemed to

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Speaker 3: me at least hilarious incident where a Hellenistic king named Demetrius,

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Speaker 3: who was ruling in the fourth to the third centuries BCE,

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Speaker 3: had the Athenians officially alter their calendar, the calendar of

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Speaker 3: the year, so that he could do the lesser and

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Speaker 3: then the greater mysteries back to back within a few days.

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Speaker 3: So it's kind of like I'm going to make the

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Speaker 3: Americans change their calendars so i can do Halloween, Christmas,

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Speaker 3: and then Valentine's Day all on a weekend. Demetrius, by

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Speaker 3: the way, he went the way he did another thing

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Speaker 3: called the apoptica, which meant seeing the Greater Mysteries for

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Speaker 3: a second time. And this is another thing referenced commonly

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Speaker 3: in the ancient world. It seems that you were not

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Speaker 3: fully initiated until you had taken part in the Greater

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Speaker 3: Mysteries twice, and you had a different role, it seems

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Speaker 3: the second time you were there. I'll talk more about

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Speaker 3: that in a minute. So at the beginning of the

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Speaker 3: festival you get a big announcement in the Agora of Athens.

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Speaker 3: Then people wishing to be initiated would go down to

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Speaker 3: the sea with a young pig, wash it in the water,

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Speaker 3: and then they would sacrifice it. And this was in

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Speaker 3: some cases done by like thousands of initiates at a time,

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Speaker 3: so you can imagine the scene as pretty bananas. At

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Speaker 3: some point, new initiates would be paired with a sort

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Speaker 3: of figure called a mystigogos, essentially like a sponsor. This

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Speaker 3: would be somebody who already knew what was going on

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Speaker 3: or was initiated, whould guide the newbie in the coming rights.

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Speaker 3: On the following days, there would be more sacrifices in

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Speaker 3: Athens to the Elusinian goddesses, and then, beginning later in

367
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Speaker 3: the history of the festival, also to Asclepius, the god

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Speaker 3: of healing and medicine. There was like a tradition here

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Speaker 3: involving a sacred snake, and then after several days of

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Speaker 3: preparation and sacrifices, you'd get the procession going back from

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Speaker 3: Athens to Eleusis to the cult center. And this would

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Speaker 3: have one group made of priests transporting the concealed sacred

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Speaker 3: objects the Hira underguard, and then there would be another

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Speaker 3: group that was made up of the initiates to the cult.

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Speaker 3: And the walk between the cities was pretty long. It

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Speaker 3: was like twenty two or twenty three kilometers, and at

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Speaker 3: one special place near the end of the journey, Bowden

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Speaker 3: mentions that the initiates endured a form of ritual mockery

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Speaker 3: by onlookers called the gepherismos, which I don't know that

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Speaker 3: stuck with me. I want to come back to that

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Speaker 3: in a minute. It's interesting. So it's like it's just

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Speaker 3: understood as part of it. You're taking part. People are

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Speaker 3: going to mock you, insult you, her whole things at

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Speaker 3: you as you go by.

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Speaker 1: It's like a roast, a mini roast.

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Speaker 3: Then finally you reach the sanctuary complex of Demeter and corey,

387
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Speaker 3: and here there's like dancing that takes place outside, and

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Speaker 3: then you would go inside for what lies beyond. Now,

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Speaker 3: how did this sanctuary compare to other religious sanctuaries in

390
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Speaker 3: the Greek world? Seem to be a few differences. Bowden

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Speaker 3: mentions that there was probably no cult statue of the goddesses,

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Speaker 3: at least that we know of, not like we had

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Speaker 3: in other famous temples. And it also does not seem

394
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Speaker 3: that animal sacrifices were made on the altar here. The

395
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Speaker 3: central building was again the one I mentioned earlier, the Telesterion,

396
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Speaker 3: the Hall of Mysteries, and this was the big square

397
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Speaker 3: building that clearly rebuilt and expanded a couple of times

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Speaker 3: in its history. In its largest form, it could hold

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Speaker 3: thousands of people at a time, maybe like three thousand

400
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Speaker 3: people inside and had a sort of tiered stadium standing

401
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Speaker 3: room area so that people further in the back could see,

402
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Speaker 3: so you can think of it as a kind of

403
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Speaker 3: big square theater. And then inside the Telesterion was a

404
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Speaker 3: smaller building called the Enacteraron, which means palace. So the

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Speaker 3: initiates got a day of rest after they arrived at

406
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Speaker 3: the sanctuary complex and during the stay. It's not certain

407
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Speaker 3: what they did, but they may have facted and possibly

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Speaker 3: also consumed a prepared liquid that we talked about in

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Speaker 3: the last episode called Kookion spelled kyk e n. Now

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Speaker 3: that came up in the last episode because it featured

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Speaker 3: in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter. That poem we talked about.

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Speaker 3: The context was Demeter arrives at King Celius's home in disguise,

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Speaker 3: and she has offered wine by the Queen Medonaira, but

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Speaker 3: she refuses it and instead she drinks cookon And that's

415
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Speaker 3: supposed to be a beverage or maybe a gruel made

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Speaker 3: from grain, water and herbs. Last time I mentioned mint,

417
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Speaker 3: but I've also seen penny royal indicated here. And there

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Speaker 3: appear to be different versions of Kukon described in ancient literature.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes it's just this grain gruel. Sometimes it was mixed

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Speaker 3: with wine and perhaps cheese. Sometimes it is described as

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Speaker 3: intoxicating in nature. Sometimes it is not described that way.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes it appears to have been a mundane drink consumed

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Speaker 3: by peasants, and other times, mainly here, it seems to

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Speaker 3: have deep ritual significance. And so Kukion has attracted a

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Speaker 3: lot of attention even from people who are not primarily

426
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Speaker 3: interested in ancient history, but from people who are interested

427
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Speaker 3: in questions of speculative religious pharmacology.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Over the past several decades, there's been a recurring question,

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Speaker 1: and that question is still out there, still battered around

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Speaker 1: in contemporary literature. The question being was cookie on a

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Speaker 1: psychedelic substance of some sort, and this idea has been

434
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: explored by various commentators over the years, including Robert Graves,

435
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: the historian and author, Albert Hoffman the chemist, and also

436
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: ethnobotanist and mystic Terrence mckinna. Specifically, I had to bust

437
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: out my copy of Terence McKinnon's Food of the Gods

438
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: because McKennon gets into this. He points out that the Graves,

439
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: Robert Graves suggested the possibility of the psychedelic mushroom psilocybin being.

440
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 3: Involved and.

441
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: Kind of initially championed this idea, while Albert Hoffman and R.

442
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: Gordon Wasawson presented the theory of ergotized beer brewed from

443
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: a strain of the ergot fungus, those being two of

444
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: the main sort of theories regarding what this could have

445
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: been if it was a psychedelic substance, and there are

446
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: some problems, especially with the ergatized beer examples we'll get into,

447
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: and Balden discusses some of this in the book as well.

448
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: He points out that, okay, this is an idea that's

449
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: never been particularly well received by experts in historians, though

450
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: it continues to generate a lot of interest in scholarship,

451
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: and he outlines two primary objections, the first practical in

452
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: the second theoretical. So, first of all, the practical objection

453
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: concerning specific theories that the mysteries in question depended on

454
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: an ergot derived psychedelic which would have been similar to LSD.

455
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: So as a reminder, ergot doesn't contain LSD, but contains

456
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 1: lysergic acid as well as the precursor to LSD ergotymine.

457
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: But the main problem here, the practical objection is that

458
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,959
Speaker 1: psychedelic doses of ergot itself would result in just terrible

459
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: illness and death rather than a temporary experience something that

460
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 1: you would then you know that would be this like

461
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: defining moment of your life. Perhaps we did episodes and

462
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: ergotism for stuff to boil your mind. Back in twenty fifteen,

463
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: and yeah, generally it does not sound like an afternoon

464
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: of enlightenment.

465
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 3: No, so I certainly don't have expertise in this area,

466
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 3: but from what I can tell, this seems like a

467
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 3: pretty reasonable objection.

468
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, we're, if memory serves getting into

469
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: the details of ergotism, we're talking in times like flesh

470
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 1: peeling madness. So nothing that's again seems like it would

471
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 1: be part of an overall positive spiritual experience. And in

472
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: Food of the Gods, Terence McKinnon also addressed this, joking

473
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: that quote clearly unpleasant experiences may lie ahead for those

474
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: who set out to prove by self experiment the Wasason

475
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: Hoffman theory concerning Elusius. But then he also presents a

476
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: couple of ideas that were out there regards, on one hand,

477
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: a particular species or erga that might yield less toxicity

478
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: and higher psychoactive results, as well as the notion presented

479
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: by Watson and Hoffmann that if you were to properly

480
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 1: macerate the argotized grain in water, you might have been

481
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: able to separate the water soluble psychoactive alkaloids. But again

482
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: mckinna stressed that the burden of proof is on those

483
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: who assert and no one at that point and sense

484
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 1: has sufficiently proven any of this.

485
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 3: But you can see why the example of the Elusinian

486
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 3: mysteries would be incredibly appealing to people who have a

487
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 3: general theory that psychedelics play a major role in the

488
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 3: establishment of religious practices.

489
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: Right right, And certainly that is the case with McKenna's

490
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: overall thesis the role that psychedelics may have played and

491
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: the evolution of humans into their current state, as well

492
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: as the advancement of human civilization. He but his discussion

493
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: of this is interesting and I think ultimately a lot

494
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: more balanced than some might expect. Overall, I think Food

495
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: of the Gods is The scholarship is a lot better

496
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: than some might think, because I don't want to overstress things,

497
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: because I think with McKenna you're dealing with someone who

498
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: was a visionary and a mystic and definitely has some

499
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: key arguments for the about the trajectory of human civilization,

500
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: what has gone wrong and what needs to be corrected.

501
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: A number of opinions that I don't think are really

502
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: all that off track. But we also shouldn't like overstate

503
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,719
Speaker 1: what Food of the Gods is compared to other works

504
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: of dedicated scholarship, and I mean he does stress that

505
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: again there are a number of mysteries in play here,

506
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: including just you know, what are we talking about here?

507
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: Was it even something tangible? He references an example that

508
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: was presented by Wilson and Hoffman in their thesis and

509
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: all of this, that there's this four to fifteen BCE

510
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: example in which an Athenian noble, a noble that we're

511
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: going to come back to that is sometimes described as

512
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: quote a flamboyant Athenian playboy. His name is Alcibiades, and

513
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: he's recorded as having been fine for bringing the Elusinian

514
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: sacrament home for entertainment purposes with friends. And the argument

515
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: here is, well, this would seem to suggest that it

516
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: was not only tangible, but perhaps something entertaining in and

517
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: of itself. Now, the theoretical objection to psychedelic theories concerning

518
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: the kokion is referenced by Bowden. The theoretical objection basically

519
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: blows down to the fact that drugs are not strictly

520
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: necessary for these rights as we understand them. The ancient

521
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 1: Greeks had plenty other tricks up their sleeves to create

522
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: the experience. Many based in performance and even mechanical theatrical effects.

523
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: And so he stresses that you know, even say the

524
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: nocturnal bachic revels of the Dionysus mystery cults might not

525
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: have depended on wine. So if wine wasn't needed for

526
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: the revels of Bacchus, then do we really need psychedelic

527
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: substances for these to work. That being said, they might

528
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: have had wine. And it's also very possible that the

529
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: rights were discussing here involved substances of one form or another,

530
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: either as a whole or at different points that they

531
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: were laid out. But I think this is an excellent

532
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: point about a raisis, and I think one way to

533
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: think about it is to think about another like the

534
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,959
Speaker 1: modern version of the spectacle that we indulge in with

535
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: other people, that being going to a concert, Like think

536
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: of a big concert you went, or even a small concert,

537
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: just a noteworthy concert you went to. If you've been

538
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: to a concert at all over the past I don't know,

539
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: several decades, no doubt you've encountered folks that have imbibed

540
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: in say alcohol that is generally sold freely at most

541
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: of these events, or perhaps individuals who've imbibed in some

542
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,479
Speaker 1: level of illicit drug use, be it you know, simple

543
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: marijuana or some psychedelic or stimulant. And you know, the

544
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: question that this raises is okay, Well, is the resulting

545
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: mental state from taking any of these substances going to

546
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: enhance the experience of the show? Well? Certainly a strong

547
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: a case or a strong case can be made, like

548
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: even if you're just talking about, Hey, I had a

549
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: cup of coffee to help keep me awake until the

550
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: headliner came on. Fair enough, But is any of this

551
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: strictly necessary for a great time? And I realized that

552
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: this sounds like a question posed in a dare program

553
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: from high school for many people. But if we think

554
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: about it logically, I think it works out. You know,

555
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: all the technical, theatrical, social aspects of a concert are

556
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: in place. They're generally very potent. You've probably bought that

557
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: ticket and gone out to the show because you already

558
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: have some invested interest in the spectacle. And as such,

559
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: substances they might be helpful in one regard or another,

560
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: they might enhance things, but the spectacle is already the spectacle,

561
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: the lights, the music, the communal energy, and so forth.

562
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and imagine if you were approaching the concert with

563
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 3: the knowledge that what happened there was was secret and

564
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 3: couldn't be revealed.

565
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which is just going to enhance everything. And

566
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: certainly that's I mean, anytime you have any kind of

567
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: a theatrical presentation, you know, either mildly theatrical or overtly theatrical,

568
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: if there's a secrecy to it, oh well, that just

569
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: makes it all the more special. Think about a speakeasy.

570
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: Any of you have ever been to one of the

571
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: modern speakeasies, not like a Prohibition era speakeasy, but if

572
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: you if you did go to a Prohibition era speakeasy,

573
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: you know, kudos to you for being up on podcasts

574
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,479
Speaker 1: and so forth. But you know, it's like there's generally

575
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: this level of like, oh I had to go through

576
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: a secret door or to get into this bar. You know,

577
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: it just makes everything all the more exciting.

578
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 3: Right, I want to come back to that in a

579
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: minute here.

580
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: So Abouden writes, quote, if we are to look for

581
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: an external explanation for the Eleusinian experience, the theater seems

582
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: a better place to look than the kitchen or brewery.

583
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: Again, that seems quite reasonable to me, you can't totally

584
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 3: rule out a pharmacological influence, but I don't think we

585
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 3: need to go there to explain anything.

586
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: Right, And it does create, as McKenna pointed out, an

587
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: additional burden of proof, that is that is required.

588
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: Now.

589
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: I looked at some more recent articles exploring the various

590
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: psychedelic theories regarding the Elusinian mysteries, and you do see

591
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 1: proponents still arguing that some of these theories, at least

592
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: the psychotropic mushroom one, that the mushroom theory seems to

593
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: be more valid than and less less fraught with complications

594
00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: compared to the aragot beer. You know that one may

595
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: be in the mix still, But at the end of

596
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: the day, all we could really do is speculate, And

597
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: again it just adds an additional level of evidence that

598
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: would be required, evidence that we do not have, but

599
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: certainly more possible, fewer complications than saying maybe it was

600
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: aliens by all means.

601
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 3: All right, So whether or not the people engaged in

602
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 3: this were consuming hallucinogenic barley mush again, no reason to

603
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 3: assume they needed to do that to explain anything we know,

604
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 3: but who knows. Maybe whether or not that was happening

605
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 3: after the public rituals at the end of the festival.

606
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 3: Not quite at the end, actually, there was a little

607
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 3: bit after this, but basically the climax of the festival.

608
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 3: Once night had fallen, you would get to the big deal,

609
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 3: the secret rites inside the closed hall of mysteries, the Telesterion.

610
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 3: So what was going on there? Well, here's where we

611
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 3: know a lot less, because, as we've discussed, those who

612
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 3: had not been initiated were not supposed to know, and

613
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 3: those who had been initiated were not supposed to tell.

614
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 3: But we have some clues. So there are ancient references

615
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 3: to the mysteries inside the Telesterion as quote things done,

616
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 3: things shown, and things said, which is sort of vague,

617
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 3: but that still tells you a bit. It suggests there

618
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,720
Speaker 3: is a visual display things shown, a physically enacted element

619
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 3: things done, and a recited element things said aloud. The

620
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 3: second to third century Christian Church father Clement of Alexandria

621
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 3: claims that initiates to the Eleusinian mysteries had to recite

622
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 3: a kind of pass phrase, which translates to I fasted,

623
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 3: I drank the kookion, I took from the chest, and

624
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 3: having worked with the sacred implements. I removed them into

625
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 3: the basket and from the back into the chest, which

626
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 3: that last part sounds like, Oh the kind of activity

627
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 3: that would just thrill my toddler right now. Is that

628
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 3: a common thing for kids at this age? I don't know.

629
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 1: I mean, does it ever go away? I love putting

630
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 1: things in little boxes and taking things out of boxes. Yeah,

631
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,959
Speaker 1: I mean people watch whole videos online just to see unboxings.

632
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 3: Right, soah, out of this box, into that box and

633
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 3: then back again.

634
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

635
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 3: Anyway, as for the things shown in that phrase, a

636
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 3: lot of ancient sources, while not saying what was shown,

637
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 3: really emphasized the idea of the mysteries as a visual display.

638
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 3: In fact, the priest of Demeter is known as the hyrafant,

639
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: which means that name translates to a person who shows

640
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 3: or displays sacred things. Now, this might be a good

641
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 3: place to talk a bit about the idea of the

642
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 3: profanation of the mysteries. Bowden's book has a good little

643
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 3: subsection on this, and you were alluding to it earlier

644
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 3: with the idea of that guy I'll see is the

645
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 3: fifth century BCE Athens based general who he got in

646
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 3: trouble because the deal was he was like right about

647
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 3: to head off for a naval campaign to Sicily, So

648
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 3: they're getting ready to go to launch this expedition, and

649
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 3: suddenly he is accused by enemies of having revealed the

650
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 3: mysteries of Eleusis to non initiates. And in fact, the

651
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 3: idea was not just that he told secrets, but that

652
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 3: he sort of privatized the mysteries by recreating them in

653
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 3: his house with non initiated guests. I was trying to

654
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 3: figure out, like what exactly was the spirit of this

655
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 3: recreation of the mysteries, Like was he trying to get

656
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,720
Speaker 3: his own mysteries going or was it in a spirit

657
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 3: of mockery or irony. I'm not quite sure there.

658
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: Or kind of like being it could have been a

659
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: sense of he was like just a super fan. He's

660
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: like I love this stuff so much. You know, he's

661
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: just s geaking out about it, wanting to share it

662
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: with his buddies. But then in doing so, you know,

663
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: commits at least minor heresy. You know, these things can

664
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: get out of control sometimes.

665
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 3: But this accusation is received as quite serious, like it

666
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 3: would be a grave offense which would lead to divine punishment.

667
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 3: The kind of implication is, if you know, you send

668
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 3: out a general out to war who has just profaned

669
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 3: the secret rights, the gods are going to work their

670
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 3: wrath on him with defeat in battle. And so maybe

671
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 3: this is a good place to come back and explore

672
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 3: the idea of the secrecy of the rights a little more.

673
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 3: We talked about this a minute ago, and I had

674
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 3: some more thoughts about this. Specifically, I was reading about

675
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 3: it in that book chapter by Kevin Clinton where he

676
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 3: cites a passage by Aristotle which makes reference to the mysteries,

677
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 3: and I thought this was interesting. Aristotle says, in translation quote,

678
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 3: the initiates are not supposed to learn anything, but rather

679
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 3: to experience and to be disposed in a certain way,

680
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 3: that is, becoming manifestly fit or deserving. So the cult

681
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 3: has secrets which are only revealed to initiates. But according

682
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 3: to Aristotle at least, and I trust he probably knew

683
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 3: what he was talking about, the initiates are not supposed

684
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: to learn anything. That's not the point. Coming back to

685
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 3: something we talked about in an earlier part, that the

686
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 3: point of the cult is not an information puzzle. It's

687
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 3: not to learn the secret password. Instead, you are supposed

688
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 3: to have an experience. And even more interestingly about what

689
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 3: Aristotle says here, you're supposed to have an experience and

690
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:46,720
Speaker 3: by virtue of that experience to become worthy. Now, according

691
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 3: to Clinton, the Greek word Aristotle uses for experience here

692
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 3: does mean what we mean by experience, but it also

693
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 3: means to suffer. And Clinton argues that the secrecy of

694
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 3: the Mystery cults was not originally understood as the point

695
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 3: of them. Rather, it came to be perceived as a

696
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 3: defining aspect of them, sort of because of the drama

697
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 3: it implied, especially to non initiates, and because of the

698
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 3: severe penalties for violation of those secrets. It seems this

699
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 3: wasn't the case always, because you can find counterexamples, but

700
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 3: it looks like, at least in some cases, the punishment

701
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 3: was supposed to be death. So, given the assumption that

702
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 3: the mystery cult was not actually about secrecy, the secrecy

703
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 3: was not the point. Clinton asks an interesting question quote,

704
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 3: we may then legitimately ask what actually was the point

705
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 3: of the secrecy, But first one must consider what is

706
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 3: so special about a secret. A secret is a fact

707
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 3: or a representation of a human act that cannot be

708
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 3: disclosed beyond a certain group. What could be so exciting

709
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 3: about a fact or an act that could draw thousands

710
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,439
Speaker 3: of people from all over the Greek world each year

711
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 3: to the mysteria. And of course we do get some

712
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 3: attempts in the ancient world to kind of frame the

713
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 3: secret of the Eleusinian mysteries as something that would be

714
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 3: concealed for a reason of it being i don't know,

715
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 3: scandalous or titillating. And some of these reports come from

716
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 3: early Christian writers, and that kind of makes sense, like

717
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 3: they would be maybe hostile to other religious practices and

718
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 3: not worried about profaning them. But it's also unclear how

719
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 3: accurate these these claims are and whether we should believe

720
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 3: their descriptions. But one example is that Clinton mentions that

721
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 3: some Christian authors claimed the big secret of the Elysinian

722
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 3: mysteries is you got to watch a priest and a

723
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 3: priestess have sex.

724
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: Again, I come back to the idea of some sort

725
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: of a sideshow tent. You go into the back and

726
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 1: you get to see like a little something extra that's

727
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: not for everyone who came to the main circus.

728
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so again we have no way of knowing that's

729
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 3: not true. But Clinton kind of argues against it. He says,

730
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 3: this would not be sufficient to attract the kind of

731
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 3: attention and like draw the kind of crowds from all

732
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 3: around like are described like for one thing. It's not

733
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 3: that unique. And to me it just sounds kind of

734
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 3: like a like a slander that one religion says about another.

735
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 3: And there were plenty of Slanders going the opposite way too,

736
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 3: Slanders Greek and Roman polytheists accused Christians of being immoral,

737
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 3: of engaging in cannibalism and incest and all kinds of stuff.

738
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you just wanted to see a sexual act

739
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: or sexual act for performance, there are surely other shows

740
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 1: in town. So yeah, this does sort of ring of

741
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: some sort of a slander, doesn't it.

742
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 3: Right, So instead, Clinton argues that the purpose of the

743
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 3: secrecy was in order to make the experience of the

744
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 3: solemn rituals feel extraordinary. And I mean this rings true

745
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 3: to me. That which we that which we receive as

746
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 3: common knowledge, feels trivial. That which is hidden and is

747
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 3: specially revealed to us feels like it gets an automatic

748
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 3: leg up in profundity. You know, it's just so much

749
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 3: easier to interpret a secret revealed to you as something

750
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 3: that is meaningful in itself, when in fact it doesn't

751
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 3: need to be. And you know that got me thinking, like,

752
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 3: I don't mean to insult the mysteries by this or

753
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 3: profound religious experiences in general, but I kind of can't

754
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 3: help make the comparison to a common sort of influencer

755
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 3: who exists today that I would characterize as like the

756
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 3: influencer mystic, a person who ostensibly traffics in insights somebody

757
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 3: who is out there. Maybe they've got media channels or whatever,

758
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 3: and they do commentary and analysis or life advice. But

759
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 3: their insights, at least as I judge, might not be

760
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 3: especially interesting or seem especially valid if they were just

761
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 3: presented in written form or paraphrased into plain language. But

762
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 3: this kind of influencer mystic can achieve a fan base

763
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 3: because they're able to talk in a way that makes

764
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 3: whatever they're saying feel like a great occult secret is

765
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 3: being unearthed, and by listening to them you are the

766
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 3: first witness to an unveiling of truths, which is an

767
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 3: intoxicating feeling if somebody can pull it off. And so

768
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 3: of course I'm speaking with a little bit of derision

769
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 3: about these modern examples. But you could also, at the

770
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 3: same time use the theatrics of the unveiled secret to

771
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 3: increase the salience of genuine, profound insights and experiences. So

772
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 3: I'm not suggesting the Eleusinian mysteries were necessarily hollow at

773
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 3: their core or anything like that. Again, there's just a

774
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 3: lot we don't know about their core.

775
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: It's really interesting to think about this too in terms

776
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: of the secular modern world and even the religious modern

777
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: world in many respects, Like we are so accustomed to

778
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,240
Speaker 1: the idea that you can skip to the end and read,

779
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: read the finish, read the conclusion, it would get a

780
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: bullet list of the main things that are important. And

781
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: so the idea that there would be levels to something

782
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: or some sort of a secret reveal that it is

783
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 1: not for everyone else to know it does kind of

784
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: run counter to sort of the informational DNA that a

785
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: lot of us have.

786
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so while I think in the modern world

787
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 3: this is often used for ill, it wouldn't necessarily have

788
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 3: to be used for ill. But I think you can

789
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 3: get you can get a lot of persuasive and attentional

790
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 3: mileage just by framing your opinion or whatever you're about

791
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 3: to say as a secret that is being unveiled to someone,

792
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 3: you know, like I'm going to pull back the curtain now.

793
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: I think that the place, weirdly enough, where it is

794
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: often the most respected is in terms of narrative storyteller,

795
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: particularly with movies and the you know, the idea of

796
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: no spoilers, you know, not only don't spoil this for me,

797
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 1: but I think more profoundly, when you have an experience

798
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: where there's some sort of a film out there and

799
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: either is particularly well crafted or it does involve a

800
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:17,240
Speaker 1: particularly innovative twist or effective twist or an emotional twist,

801
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,439
Speaker 1: and people will stress, don't read the spoilers, go into

802
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,959
Speaker 1: this without you know, don't watch the trailer, go into

803
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: it so that everything is a surprise. You know.

804
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

805
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: Outside of that, like, there's not much that we're we're

806
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,919
Speaker 1: we generally engage in where we're open to that sort

807
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: of experience. I mean, I guess in some respects we

808
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: are like like, you know, some one might say, have

809
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: a child, you don't know how this is going to

810
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: turn out, but you're you're in the long run, it's

811
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a surprise. There's gonna be some twists

812
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: you're not expecting it's true. But you know, the parenthood

813
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: and movies, those are the two examples that come to mind.

814
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: But when it comes to religion, we're more of the mind, well,

815
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: what are they believe in? Give me a list? Is

816
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,280
Speaker 1: there a holy book? All right, I'm going to skip

817
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: to the end. Is maybe there's some cliff notes on

818
00:47:58,160 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: it and so forth.

819
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, and that goes back to something we

820
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 3: talked about in the first episode of the series about

821
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 3: that anthropological framework of the doctrinal religious model versus the

822
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 3: imagistic or a religious model. Bowden makes reference to these ideas,

823
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 3: and the short version is that doctrinal modes of worship

824
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 3: worship tend to be frequent, regular, low intensity, but also

825
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 3: have clear meaning and function. You can kind of have

826
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 3: a systematic explanation of what the purpose and meaning of

827
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 3: the rituals are, versus what's known as the imagistic model

828
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 3: of religious practice, where you know, rituals tend to be rare, strange,

829
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,479
Speaker 3: high intensity, and more ambiguous in terms of meaning. Maybe

830
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 3: nobody's even telling you what to make of the experience

831
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 3: you had. Now, I guess the implication is that mysteries

832
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 3: such as the mysteries of ill Usis would be much

833
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,479
Speaker 3: more firmly in the imagistic mode of worship. That there's

834
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 3: something profound, high intensity going on, and it may well

835
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 3: be very ambiguous, very open to your own contemplation and interpretation.

836
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 3: Maybe nobody tells you what it means or even what

837
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 3: it's doing. But that does bring us back to the

838
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 3: Secret Rights themselves. So what else can we guess about

839
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 3: the content of the mysteries? And here I'm going to

840
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 3: synthesize from multiple accounts, including Clinton's and Bowden's and a

841
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 3: few other things I've read. But it seems that, for

842
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 3: one thing, the Secret Rights probably involved some reenactment of

843
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 3: the myth of Demeter and Corey. Now it's questionable to

844
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 3: what extent it followed the story completely, which parts of

845
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 3: the story were represented, and what version of the story

846
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 3: you got, but there are multiple clues pointing to the

847
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 3: idea that some version of this story is being re enacted,

848
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 3: at least in part in these rituals. This could include

849
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 3: wandering around in the darkness, like searching for the kidnapped

850
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 3: daughter after her disappearance, possibly witnessing or hearing the grief

851
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 3: stricken cries of Demeter. For at least part of the ritual,

852
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 3: initiates may have been blindfolded or shrouded with a hood.

853
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 3: Ancient authors make reference to something about this where they

854
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 3: would probably be guided by their mystagogue, you know, the

855
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 3: more experienced guide would show them the way to go

856
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 3: while they were baffled and you know, and they didn't

857
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 3: know where to go, stumbling around in the dark, and

858
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 3: all of this before the initiates were eventually made aware

859
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 3: somehow of the reunion of mother and daughter of Demeter

860
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 3: and Corey at the end of the myth, and then

861
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 3: finally brought into the hall, like coming out of the

862
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 3: darkness into a hall brightly illuminated by torches for a

863
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:56,439
Speaker 3: celebration and revealing of things hidden. Now again, those last

864
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 3: parts are they seem reasonable based on what we know,

865
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,359
Speaker 3: but we don't know for sure. That's the form it took.

866
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 3: Torches seem to play a role. There are a lot

867
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 3: There are a lot of mentions of darkness and blindfoldedness

868
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 3: and agony and struggles in the darkness and then coming

869
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 3: into the light.

870
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: You know, this brings me back. We talked again talking

871
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: about haunted attractions and how you do encounter some that

872
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: are church affiliated. I have distinct memories of going to

873
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: one as when I was a youth. There's a rural

874
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:31,919
Speaker 1: Southern church affiliated haunted house. And at the end, as

875
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: you wandered or perhaps rushed out of the darkness pursued

876
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: by chainsaws and the like, where do you enter into

877
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: You enter into a tent where a preacher is then

878
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: going to speak to you and sell you on eternal

879
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: salvation and of course the the alternatives that you just

880
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 1: witnessed in the haunted house.

881
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that that that high contrast creates an intensity,

882
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 3: like an emotional motivation and intensity of experience that really

883
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 3: I don't know. In this case, again, we've already noted

884
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,280
Speaker 3: the difference between like the Christian hell House or whatever

885
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 3: variation there where the goal is to I don't want

886
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 3: to oversimplify, but I think it's fair to say usually

887
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 3: at least the goal there is going to be to

888
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 3: convert you into the doctrinal form of that religion, to say, like,

889
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 3: you belong to us. Now you've been convinced by witnessing

890
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 3: these horrors, you need to go to our church. That

891
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 3: does not necessarily seem to be the goal here. I

892
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 3: don't detect based on what I've read that the purpose

893
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 3: of the mysteries is a persuasive one that you need

894
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 3: to like join the cult of ill usis though, I mean,

895
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 3: I guess the people who are who go through as

896
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 3: misdays the first time, and this is a distinction. The

897
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 3: first time you are initiated the mysteries, you were known

898
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 3: as misty's or mistace, a term which seems to derive

899
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 3: from the concept of having one's eyes closed, and then

900
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 3: you would usually come back second time, and then you

901
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 3: would be known as epop dase, which means look or viewer,

902
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 3: So there is a kind of return and the difference

903
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 3: between those terms is interesting too, by the way, because

904
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 3: the difference between like mistase meaning eyes closed and a

905
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 3: pop dase meaning looking or viewing that could of course

906
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 3: be literal like maybe the first time you do it

907
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 3: you are blindfolded or hooded and the second time you

908
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:28,919
Speaker 3: can look, or maybe there are particular elements that two

909
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 3: time initiates are particular permitted to look upon that first

910
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 3: time initiates or not. But this difference could also just

911
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,760
Speaker 3: refer to a kind of metaphorical perspective on what is happening.

912
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,280
Speaker 3: The same way that we say to have previous experience

913
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 3: with something is to go into it with open eyes.

914
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 1: For anyone out there who's listening with I don't know

915
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:51,720
Speaker 1: if this is really a listen with the whole family

916
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: sort of episode, but in the case event that you are,

917
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: I'm about to throw out some Christmas spoilers, so feel

918
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 1: free to skip a bit if you if you wish.

919
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: But this also reminds me of the way that some

920
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: parents approach Santa Claus and Christmas traditions, the idea of

921
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: being that instead of just not doing them or trying

922
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: to keep the myth and the or the fiction of

923
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: Santa Claus going like well beyond it's a healthy phase. Instead,

924
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: you kind of break it down like this, where it

925
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: is kind of treated like a mystery when the child

926
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 1: is young, and then when the child reaches a certain age,

927
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: it's like, now you were part of the mystery, and

928
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 1: now you can help create this mystery for perhaps younger siblings,

929
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: other young people you know in the family or in

930
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: the community, and so forth. And perhaps this is like

931
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 1: a less doctrinal example compared to the Haunted House thing,

932
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: because I guess there's not really a doctrine regarding Santa

933
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: that is being pursued in the long run, though it

934
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 1: is of course more certainly like narrative and so forth.

935
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 1: And I guess perhaps the Santa Clause example is better

936
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: than the Haunted House example, because Santa Claus, there's not

937
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: really a doctrine there that we're trying to drive home

938
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,279
Speaker 1: into children, aside from be good or else.

939
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, Oh, but I guess I got sidetracked

940
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 3: there talking about the mystas versus the apoptase from talking

941
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 3: about how generally it seems like there is a difference

942
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 3: between the hell house model and the mystery religion model because,

943
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 3: or at least this particular case, because in the all

944
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 3: Useenian mysteries, it's like the experience is the point. It's

945
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 3: not just like a persuasive act to get you to

946
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 3: do something else different. Right. Another interesting passage that is

947
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 3: often cited in historical writing about the mystery religions is

948
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 3: from Plutarch. Or Plutarch characterizes the mysteries generally by way

949
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:52,280
Speaker 3: of metaphor. What he's actually talking about is what happens

950
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 3: to the soul at the end of life. But he's

951
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 3: sort of saying, you know, what happens to the soul

952
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 3: at the end of life is much like what you

953
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 3: all know happens after you're iniated into the mysteries. And

954
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 3: to be clear, he doesn't say specifically he's talking about

955
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 3: the Eleusinian mysteries, but he probably is. These were the

956
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 3: most famous. So what Plutarch says is quote, wandering astray

957
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,760
Speaker 3: in the beginning, tiresome walkings in circles, some frightening paths

958
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 3: in darkness that lead nowhere. Then immediately before the end,

959
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 3: all the terrible things, panic and shivering and sweat and bewilderment,

960
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 3: and then some wonderful light comes to meet you. Purer

961
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,720
Speaker 3: regions and meadows are there to greet you with sounds

962
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 3: and dances and solemn sacred words and holy views. And

963
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,320
Speaker 3: there the initiate, perfect by, now set free and loose

964
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 3: from all bondage, walks about, crowned with a wreath, celebrating

965
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 3: the festival together with the other sacred and pure people.

966
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 3: And he looks down on the uninitiated, unpurified crowd in

967
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 3: this world in mud and fog beneath his feet. Oh wow,

968
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 3: So that square somewhat with what we've already talked about,

969
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 3: like this feeling of lightness and sort of ascension that

970
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 3: comes with having gone through the mysteries. There is some

971
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 3: lasting effect on people that they cite that they say

972
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 3: is very powerful and makes them feel better, makes them

973
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 3: feel unafraid, set loose in some way, perfected in some way.

974
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 3: But I also like the first half of this passage,

975
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 3: where it seems to be more describing, just in general

976
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 3: and emotional terms, what the experience of going through the

977
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 3: mysteries is like. And it's one that begins with confusion, bafflement, exhaustion,

978
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 3: and suffering and ends with hope and cathartic relief. And

979
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 3: so I guess this brings us to the question of

980
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 3: what did the mysteries mean to the people who practiced

981
00:57:55,520 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 3: them Abouten explores this at length in his book Discuss

982
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 3: As we've already alluded to the possibility that the meaning

983
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 3: of the mysteries was not made explicit. Instead, like the

984
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 3: standard model of the imagistic mode of religion, it's sort

985
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 3: of left ambiguous. It invites participants to reflect later and

986
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 3: contemplate to figure out for themselves what it means. And

987
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 3: that's very interesting to me too, because I mean a

988
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 3: huge part actually of what religion is, at least in

989
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 3: my experience, is exegesis on what things mean. It's like,

990
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 3: you know, religions have, or many religions have. You know,

991
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 3: they have contents, they may have texts and stories, they

992
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 3: may have physical objects or places, they have rituals, and

993
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 3: there's just so much effort devoted to clarifying what everything means.

994
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 3: And that that's what a lot of people want out

995
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 3: of religion today. You know, they want to understand how, what,

996
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 3: why we do it? What how to make sense of it?

997
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 3: But this version of religion may have been a kind

998
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 3: of different one where it's like, instead, you witness something

999
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 3: and you go through something is strange and overwhelming and powerful,

1000
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 3: and then you're kind of just sent home to make

1001
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 3: your own sense of it.

1002
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it's kind of like abstract art and

1003
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: abstract cinema at its best, right where there's you go

1004
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 1: into it without any kind of expectations, you leave it

1005
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: without any i would say, prescribed interpretations. You know, you're

1006
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 1: left to try and figure out what it possibly meant

1007
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: all on your own, and maybe it meant nothing, but

1008
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 1: you won't forget it.

1009
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 3: Kevin Clinton in his chapter writes, relying in part on

1010
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 3: his own hypothetical reconstruction of the rituals. So the following

1011
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 3: passage does include some assumptions based on guesses, but reasonable guesses,

1012
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 3: so Clinton writes, quote, the mysteria revealed simple things like

1013
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 3: the return of a lost daughter to her mother, a

1014
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 3: goddess insight, differing parentheses, an extraordinary state for a Greek

1015
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 3: god or goddess, joy that accompanies the appearance of grain,

1016
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 3: the grain that is plutos, meaning wealth, the agrarian prosperity

1017
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 3: that sustains family and clan, all simple things that at

1018
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 3: the same time had profound significance. The impact lay in

1019
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 3: part in the dramatic presentation, which was an essential aspect

1020
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 3: of the experience. And that kind of takes me to

1021
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 3: another place, which is it makes me think I've been

1022
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 3: thinking about this primarily from the point of view of

1023
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 3: the new initiate, the mistas or the apoptes, you know,

1024
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 3: who's for the first or second time going through the

1025
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 3: greater mysteries and experiencing it and seeing what it means.

1026
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 3: But this kind of makes me think about it from

1027
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 3: the point of view of the priesthood. Say you are

1028
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 3: a hierophant or you're one of the people whose job

1029
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 3: it is to put on the show of the Eleusinian mysteries.

1030
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 3: It seems actually there's quite a bur there's quite a

1031
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 3: burden to put on a good show, because are people

1032
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:07,919
Speaker 3: are sort of relying on the fact that you put

1033
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 3: on a good show in order to find meaning in

1034
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 3: their life, to escape their fear of death, to feel

1035
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 3: like their life will have blessings yet to come, and

1036
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 3: they fit in a divine order, which is fascinating. And

1037
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 3: I guess something that people I don't know religious performers

1038
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 3: and in other situations probably do feel a similar kind

1039
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 3: of obligation. But it again made all the more alluring

1040
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 3: in this case because of the power of the secrecy,

1041
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 3: because there thing we still don't know. There's some things

1042
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 3: we don't know. We don't know exactly what they were doing,

1043
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 3: and it's like it's agonizing. You want to know, but

1044
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 3: we can't.

1045
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, we want it all laid out, like from a

1046
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 1: historical standpoint, from an anthropology of religion standpoint, we want

1047
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 1: to know, like what were the things that were believe,

1048
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 1: what were the things that were enacted, and what was

1049
01:01:56,440 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: the import of those things? And for varying reasons. We

1050
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 1: have a lot of holes, all right. Well, on that note,

1051
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: we're going to go ahead and close out this episode,

1052
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: but we have decided we will come back with at

1053
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 1: least a fourth episode on the mystery cults, and it

1054
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: may not be the next episode of Stuff to Blow

1055
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 1: Your Mind. It may occur after that. So in the

1056
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 1: not too distant future you will encounter a fourth episode

1057
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 1: and we'll continue this fascinating discussion. There are so many

1058
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 1: different mystery cults and we're not going to be able

1059
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 1: to discuss all of them, and we're of course not

1060
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 1: going to get into everything that Balden discusses in his book. Again,

1061
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: we do highly recommend you check that out if you

1062
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 1: are interested in the topic. The title of that book

1063
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 1: again is Mystery Cults in the Ancient World by Hugh Bowden.

1064
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: In the meantime, we'd like to remind everyone that's Stuff

1065
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast,

1066
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 1: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We have a

1067
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 1: short form episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays, we set

1068
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 1: aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird

1069
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 1: film on Weird House Cinema.

1070
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 3: Huge things, As always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1071
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1072
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1073
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:08,479
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1074
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your

1075
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

1076
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Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 2: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.