1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: Bbcsdis Hey, I'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up before 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: we start. The series does contain some descriptions of violence 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: and deals with adult themes. Close your eyes, hear that 4 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: sleigh bells tingling in the distance. You look outside at 5 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: the frosted street corners. A snow lightly falls on your 6 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: mom's garden. Gnome inside, you're warm, happy. Maybe there's a 7 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: fire lit in the corner. You're surrounded by people you love, 8 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: clinking glasses and good cheer. Oh, don't look at Martha. 9 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: Maybe had a bit too much to drink. But you 10 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: know what, It's Christmas. It's the festive season, and everyone 11 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: is entitled to a good tiding here and there. Okay, 12 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: I admit this is like a quintessential Hallmark Christmas. No 13 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: one's Christmas is like this. My Christmas isn't like this, 14 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: But it's kind of what I think about when I 15 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: close my eyes and dream of the holiday. I think 16 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:26,199 Speaker 1: of warmth, friends and family, and a moment in time 17 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: where nothing really matters but the present, this time of 18 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: celebration and togetherness. I'm not a Christmas proselytizer by any means, 19 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: but I have to admit this idea of Christmas. It's nice, 20 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: but the holidays can also bring up a lot of 21 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: mixed emotions. They can feel lonely, isolating, especially if the 22 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: worst thing imaginable happens to you just days before the holiday. 23 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: Anthony and I are sitting on the couch and everyone's 24 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: like watching TV and the Christmas trees in the corner, 25 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: and like, I'm checking my Facebook. 26 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: This is Liz melgar Rose. She's celebrating the holidays with 27 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: her husband and his family in the UK. 28 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 2: And there's like these messages about how people love me, 29 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: and I'm like, they're here for me. 30 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: A few days ago, Liz experienced a tragedy, a miscarriage. 31 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 3: It was really difficult. 32 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: We were hopeful that we were going to have a 33 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: baby and it just didn't work out. 34 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: People back home in Texas must have heard about it. 35 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, oh, they know I've had a miscarriage, so 36 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 2: they are sending their thoughts and love to me to 37 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: make sure they know that I'm not alone. 38 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 3: You know that they're thinking of me. 39 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: But one message on her husband, Anthony's Facebook, catches her eye. 40 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: It was like, call me, there's an emergency. 41 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: Anthony gets up from the oversized red couch, and goes 42 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: into the kitchen. 43 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: He makes a call I could hear before he closed 44 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 2: the door, him saying something about it's about my family 45 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: or my mom or my dad. 46 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: Time stretches what was likely a few seconds starts to 47 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: feel like hours. 48 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 2: And then he comes back and he's like he's shaking, 49 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: and he just looks like he's seen a ghost and 50 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: he's just in shock. 51 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,399 Speaker 3: My first thought is my mom has died. 52 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: Anthony looks at her, unsure of what to say. 53 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 3: And so I'm like, what happened? 54 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,119 Speaker 2: And he's just he can't even talk, and I get 55 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: so frustrated because he's taking too long and it feels 56 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 2: like it's been an eternity, and I'm like, just tell 57 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 2: me what the fuck happened. 58 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: He can barely get the words out. Something horrible has happened. 59 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: Their friend in Texas saw Liz's parents' house in the news, 60 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: their brick bungalow swaddled and yellow police tape, blue and 61 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: red lights flickering in the cold night air. 62 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: And he said, your dad, your dad's been killed. And 63 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: that is not what I expected him to say. So 64 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: I said what And he said, your. 65 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 3: Dad's been killed? And I thought what happened. 66 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: You know that feeling when the pit of your stomach drops. 67 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: You maybe hear a slight buzz in your ear, your 68 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: heart begins thumping against your chest. You can't focus on 69 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: what people are saying. It's like you can't hear at all. 70 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: That's how I imagine Liz felt in this moment she 71 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: heard the news, the moment her entire life imploded. Her dad, 72 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: miles away from where she is now, has been murdered. 73 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: She snaps out of the haze. There will be time 74 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: to grieve, but right now she needs answers. 75 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 2: I'm calling all these people. I'm trying to get a 76 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 2: hold of my cousin. It's like five or six in 77 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:56,679 Speaker 2: the morning back in Houston. 78 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: She needs to talk to her mom. 79 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 3: I'm like, where's my mom? 80 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 2: Nobody knows where my mom is, so I'm calling all 81 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,239 Speaker 2: the hospitals. She's nowhere. I'm calling the police. She's nowhere. 82 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: I had no idea what's happened to her? 83 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: Sandy, Liz's mom has seemingly vanished without a trace. Where 84 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: is she? What happened that cold night in December? And 85 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: who killed Liz's dad. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from 86 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. This is hands Tied, episode one, 87 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: the call. 88 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 3: I Don't. 89 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: I've come to England to meet Liz at her home 90 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: in Southwest London. It's a cold and dreary day, which 91 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: is exactly what I think of when I hear the 92 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: words of January and England. 93 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 4: She brings in rocks and shoes. 94 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: Am, she brings in rocks. Really, I don't know why 95 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: that's so funny. What type of dog is she? 96 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 3: Shallow? 97 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: Is sweetening? They call them a re Mexican hair Liz. 98 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: Her name is Nola. Liz has Mine roots, so this 99 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: is a KETCHKEI word, which means cute. 100 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: Very yeah, strange animals. 101 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: I like her. I meant to her. She feels mighty 102 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: for her size. You can say the same thing about Liz. 103 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: She's tiny, with long hair dyed a deep purple, these 104 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: big saucer eyes and although she may be forty, she 105 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: looks like she's about twenty. But make no mistake, Liz 106 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: is fierce. We sit on her couch, Liz wrapping herself 107 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: in sweats and countless blankets because again it's January in England, 108 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: and we began chatting when you think about your dad, 109 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: what do you remember. 110 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: So he has this type of sense of humor, and 111 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 2: everybody calls them Jim jokes because they're just so bad 112 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: that they make you just, you know, grown and say, 113 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: oh my god. 114 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: We all know those jokes. Maybe you've told a few yourself. 115 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: I know I have their dad jokes, and these grown 116 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: worthy Jim jokes were told to her countless times by 117 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: her dad. Jim. 118 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: My dad was always pulling pranks and playing around. We 119 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 2: always say that he was just another kid, which is 120 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: why I had so much fun in my childhood, because 121 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 2: I had someone else to play with. 122 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: Liz grew up in Houston, the only child to parents 123 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: Jim also known as Hi may Or Jamie and Sandy Malgar. 124 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: When Liz thinks back to her childhood now, she can 125 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: easily recall the good times. 126 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 3: We just had these adventures. There was a creek in 127 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 3: the backyard. 128 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: Sometimes it would flood if it rained a lot, and 129 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 2: it would become this huge river, and there were alligators 130 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: in there. 131 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 3: We had this little boat and we would. 132 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: Paddle out there and just ride down the river for 133 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: a little while. You're not afraid of alligators, no, you know, 134 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 2: they can't see Zach. 135 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: Meaning if one is chasing you, run in a zigzag 136 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: hot tip. You're welcome. Saved your life despite the alligators, 137 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: which I think are way scarier than Liz is letting on. 138 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: You can get a sense of what her childhood was like, 139 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: playful fun with ample timeout in the warm Texas sun, 140 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: and her two parents, Jim and Sandy, doting on her, 141 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: wanting to give Liz everything they didn't have growing up. 142 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: I was an only child, so I probably was pretty spoiled. 143 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 2: I didn't get everything I wanted, obviously, but it's not 144 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: like I was lacking in anything. I'm grateful and I 145 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: feel lucky that I had the parents that I do. 146 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: Were you close, Yeah, we were very close. We all 147 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: had a really good and close relationship. I enjoyed spending 148 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: time with my parents. 149 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 4: I miss it. 150 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: I'd bayea. Jim and Sandy both had difficult childhoods. Jim 151 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: grew up in Guatemala, coming to America when he was 152 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: just four years old. His mother worked as a house cleaner, 153 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: saving every penny to give her children a better life. 154 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 2: He would tell me stories as well as when he 155 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 2: was a kid, to try and show me how good 156 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 2: I had it and I think at first I didn't 157 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 2: believe him because they just sounded just so far from 158 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 2: what I knew. 159 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: Like buying a glass of goat milk from a villager 160 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: for five cents only when they could afford it, or 161 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: flying to the States at a young age by yourself 162 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: and sharing a cramped, two bedroom, one bath roomhouse with 163 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: your parents and siblings. 164 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's kind of like, you know, you have 165 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 2: these nice stories, but they're kind of mixed in with 166 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: a lot of trauma. 167 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: I think Sandy didn't have it any easier. She was 168 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: abandoned by her parents and dumped with her grandmother in Laredo, 169 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: a small town on the border with Mexico. 170 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 2: She grew up incredibly poor. Sometimes they didn't have food, 171 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 2: Sometimes they didn't have electricity or running water. 172 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 3: They struggled a lot. 173 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: Sandy also spent time in and out of the foster 174 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: care system, a time Liz says her mom doesn't like 175 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: to remember. 176 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 2: It was difficult to be in these foster homes. I mean, 177 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: you're thrown into these new environments that I mean, you're 178 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 2: just a kid, You're scared, you don't know what's going on. 179 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 2: And so I think she wanted me to have everything 180 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: that she never had, and so she was determined to 181 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: be just the best mom that she could be. 182 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 3: It was difficult for. 183 00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: Her, but eventually Jim and said Andy find each other 184 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: Fate or the alphabet bringing them together in a high 185 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: school class in Houston at age seventeen. 186 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 2: So it was Sandra McCullough and then Jim and Melgar. 187 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: So he sat behind her and he would pull her 188 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 2: hair because she had really long blonde hair, and he 189 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 2: used to ask her out a lot, and she kept saying. 190 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 1: No until Jim comes up with a brilliant idea. 191 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 2: He finally asks her to go to this huge mall 192 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: in downtown Houston which is called the Gallery of and 193 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 2: there's a big ice skating rink in there. So he says, 194 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 2: some of my friends and I are going to be there. 195 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 3: Would you like to join us. 196 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,479 Speaker 1: You know, a group thing. It will be totally relaxed. 197 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: Sandy agrees, and. 198 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 2: When she gets there, it's my dad and one other friend, 199 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 2: and the friend shortly leaves and they just ended up 200 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 2: spending that evening together and I guess the rest was history. 201 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 2: They were inseparable after that. 202 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: They married and had Liz a few years later. Jim 203 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: loved cars and music, his favorite bands being ACDC, Black 204 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: Sabbath back when Ozzie was still in the band, To 205 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: Be Clear, and Pink Floyd, a band Liz loves as well. 206 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: Jim worked as a computer programmer for the Houston Independent 207 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: Schools District, while Sandy was first a nurse then later 208 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: set up a medical billing company. From Liz's perspective, her 209 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: parents always seemed to have a loving and respectful relationship. 210 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 2: And I know people probably don't believe me when I 211 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 2: say this, but I never, ever, once in my entire life, 212 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 2: ever saw them fight or yell at each other or 213 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 2: raise their voices at each other. 214 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 3: Never. I don't know how they did that, because I 215 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 3: can't do that. 216 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: Disagreements, according to Liz, were solved by talking things out calmly. 217 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: It was never like yelling or fight even modeling that 218 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: behavior for her. One time, Liz says she called her 219 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: boyfriend stupid in front of her dad. 220 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: And my dad took me to the side and he 221 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: said that it is really disrespectful, and it might start 222 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 2: a habit where you do that and you think you're 223 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 2: just playing around, but then when you're angry, you're going 224 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 2: to say it and you're going to mean it and you're. 225 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 3: Not going to be able to take it back. 226 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: So he always taught me how it was important to 227 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 2: be very respectful in your relationships and be mindful about 228 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: how you're talking to people. 229 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: I mean, a lesson for all of us. 230 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: I still struggle with it that they had somehow mastered 231 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 2: this and were able to practice it together. And you know, 232 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 2: I just I think that's a testament to their relationship 233 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: and to the love and respect that they had for 234 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 2: each other. 235 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: Liz grabs her phone to show me a picture of 236 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: her with her mom and dad. 237 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: We were taking a bunch of pictures together. I don't 238 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 2: know why this is the only one I have. 239 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: This is the last time she saw her dad. 240 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: It's at departures in the terminal there at the airport, 241 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: and it's just me in between my mom and dad 242 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 2: and they've both got their arms around me. I've got 243 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 2: my arms around them, and uh yeah, I'm about to 244 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 2: get on a plane to England. 245 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: Liz was starting her own adventure, beginning a neuroscience course 246 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: in Brighton with a focus on the brain chemistry of 247 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: violent offenders. She'd long had an interest in true crime, 248 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: something her parents thought was a little weird. The next 249 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: step up from her passion for horror. Back then, true 250 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: crime books were harder to come by than they are now, 251 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: Even so, Liz's room was stacked with books on serial killers. 252 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: Well, I remember this moment and then leaving and walking 253 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: up towards the gate. I was sad to be leaving, 254 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: but it wasn't as sad as usually was, because you know, 255 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: I kept saying, we're coming back and we'll see them soon. 256 00:14:54,520 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: We'll spend lots of time together. And yeah, I think 257 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 2: I went into crisis mode. 258 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: Right back in December twenty twelve, on the night that 259 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: she hears that Jim has been murdered. There are two 260 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: questions crashing around inside Lissa's head. What has happened to 261 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: her dad, Jim And where is her mom Sandy. 262 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: I was able to just it just feels like everything 263 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: slows down, and I'm okay, what do I need to do? 264 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 3: Step one? And then I just take it from there. 265 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: Step one. Get from London to Houston as fast as 266 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: she can. 267 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 3: My husband started looking for the flights, but. 268 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: It's just before Christmas. Everything is booked up with people 269 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: traveling for the holidays. Finally, Anthony manages to book them 270 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: onto a flight, but it's going to take a while. 271 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: First we'll have to get to Paris, then on to Houston. 272 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: I remember sitting there just thinking, oh my god, I 273 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 2: have this long flight ahead of me. 274 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 3: I don't know, it was just very surreal. I felt 275 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 3: like I was. 276 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: In a dream state and none of it was real, 277 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: and I just had to get home. 278 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: Liz and her husband Anthony had no idea what they 279 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: would find back home. All they could do was literally 280 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: sit and wait with an in flight snack or two. 281 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: On the long journey, they prepare themselves for step two, 282 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: find out what happened to Liz's parents. 283 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 4: We're heading to my uncle Jim's house. 284 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: Lizz's cousin Marissa was there the day Jim was found, 285 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: just before Christmas, December twenty third, twenty twelve. 286 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 5: And I remember I texted him actually before we left 287 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 5: the house saying, Hey, we're running late. That was just 288 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 5: a running joke honestly with us, because he would you 289 00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 5: say that we were always late to everything. 290 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: Jim had invited Marissa and her family around to eat 291 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: with him and Sandy. So Marissa, her mam, Maria, her dad, herman, 292 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: her sister, Monica, her boyfriend Gerson, and their baby Melanie 293 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: all squished together. 294 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 5: It's kind of embarrassing to say we fit six of 295 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 5: us in a five cedar car. 296 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: Somehow, Marissa finds enough elbow to text her uncle. 297 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 5: I will never forget telling my mom. I said, you know, 298 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 5: Uncle Jim hasn't texted me. Back, said, oh, maybe he's busy. 299 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 5: We're thinking maybe he's busy, he's grilling, he's doing something right. 300 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 5: And then I text him again we're getting close, and 301 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 5: again didn't hear from him. 302 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: Jim and Sandy live in Laurel Creek on the northwest 303 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: side of Houston Suburban and the way most American neighborhoods 304 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: are think, tree lined streets, cookie cutter houses a lot 305 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: of them, bungalows, big garages, and lush front lawns, and 306 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: a bit fancier than where Marissa's family live. 307 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 5: We were kind of sitting there in the driveway for 308 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 5: a little while because the neighbors, like directly across from 309 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 5: their house, they were out, and so we were just 310 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 5: kind of sitting there, laughing, thinking, how are we going 311 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 5: to get out of this car without them, you know, 312 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 5: judging us. 313 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: Eventually they get out of the car and knock on 314 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: the door. No answer. 315 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 4: So I'm thinking, okay, well let me call them. 316 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: No answer. 317 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 5: We tell my dad. He go check the backyard. They're 318 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 5: probably outside. They're grilly, I think, thinking they're grillly. 319 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: Herman makes his way to the backyard, peeks over the 320 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: fence and calls back. 321 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 5: Oh, there's nobody out there, he said. I'd tried calling 322 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 5: for my brother. Nobody's saying anything. I don't think anybody's 323 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 5: in the backyard, so this is. 324 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: Strange, even stranger. The garage door is wide open, well 325 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: one side is. It's a double garage. Herman decides to 326 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: have a look inside. 327 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 5: And I'm thinking, no, we don't break into people's homes, 328 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 5: so you know, let's wait, I said. Then I started thinking, 329 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 5: maybe they're taking a shower, you know, maybe, you know, 330 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 5: we got to give them some. 331 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 4: Space, you know, I'm sure they'll come out. 332 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 5: But my dad was like, no, no, no, this is 333 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 5: my brother's house, or we can make ourselves at home. 334 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: Herman walks in, goes through the door in the garage 335 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: that connects to the main house, and unlocks the front door, 336 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: letting the rest of his family in. 337 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 5: That's when I it just didn't feel right. As soon 338 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 5: as my dad opened the door. I remember I put 339 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 5: my arm up, you know, towards my mom's chest, and 340 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 5: I said no. I said no, let's just wait right here. 341 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: But herman ignores his daughter and turns back into the house. 342 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: The rest of the family follow into the darkness. Every 343 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: single shade in the house is drawn. 344 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 5: My dad started calling out, Sandy, Jim, we're here, and 345 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 5: that's when we started hearing what I would describe like 346 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 5: mumbling noises. We all stopped and we were like, wait, 347 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 5: what was that. 348 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: It's a voice saying help help. 349 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 2: My dad. 350 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 4: He's sprang into action. He ran towards where the noise 351 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 4: was coming. 352 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: From, running towards the back of the house, the sound 353 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: of the cries becoming louder and louder. 354 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 4: I was terrified. I had no idea what was going on. 355 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 5: It just kind of I don't remember hearing anything when 356 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 5: I was in the bedroom, it was just kind of quiet. 357 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: She goes through the bedroom and into the bathroom. Herman 358 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: spots a brown satin chair pushed up under the handle 359 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: of the bathroom closet, locking it shut from the outside. 360 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 1: He moves the chair and inside finds Sandy She's dressed 361 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: in a red nightie, black robe, and fluffy socks, lying 362 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: on the floor, her feet in her hands, tied up. 363 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: Herman and his wife cut her free and notice her 364 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: soiled underwear as they do. It looks like she's been 365 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: there for hours. 366 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 5: I'm standing there, you know, all the commotion. I see Sandy. 367 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 5: When I saw her, she was crying, she was hysterical. 368 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,959 Speaker 5: She was saying, where's Jim, Where's Jim. I was standing 369 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 5: there frozen. I think she was crawling or almost like 370 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 5: dragging herself, asking where's Jim, where's Jim, And then my 371 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 5: mom trying to hold her back. No, no, no, like 372 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 5: don't go over there, or don't just stay here. I 373 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 5: start walking into the room a little bit more, and 374 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 5: you know, I turn around because. 375 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 4: The closet light was on, and I remember turning around 376 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 4: it was to my right. 377 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: Marissa goes back into Sandy in Jim's bedroom, where there's 378 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: another closet, and. 379 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 6: I looked down and I can see my uncle's legs, 380 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 6: his ankles, and they were tied up with of gray. 381 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 4: I want to say it was a telephone cable. 382 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: Marissa can't take it any longer. She needs to get 383 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: out of that house. 384 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 5: I just decided I turned around to head back out, 385 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 5: and I bumped into It was either my sister or Gerson. 386 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,239 Speaker 4: When I bumped into them, They're like, what's going on? 387 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 4: I couldn't even. 388 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: Talk, she rushes outside. 389 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 4: The neighbors were out, so I was basically yelling at them. 390 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: I was like, please calln on the one Frantically. She 391 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: reaches into her pockets, her hands shaking as she calls 392 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: for help, and. 393 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 4: The operator answered and I couldn't. 394 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: Talk, can barely get the words out. The worst possible 395 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: thing has happened. Marissa stands outside as the sound of 396 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: sirens grow into a crescendo. The quiet afternoon twisted into 397 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,719 Speaker 1: a cacophony of alarms and shouting, the neighborhood lit up 398 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: by the blue and red lights of the police vehicles 399 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: and EMTs. The house soon swaddled in yellow police. 400 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 5: Tape, you know, people going in and out. And so 401 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 5: at one point we did get a shirt out of 402 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 5: the house, and so we were all. 403 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 4: Just standing in the driveway, just waiting to be told something. 404 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: Honestly, one of the officers warns the family that they'll 405 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: need to be separated. 406 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,239 Speaker 5: And so we went to different police cars, and we 407 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 5: sat there for what felt like forever and are interviewed 408 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 5: one by one. 409 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 7: Today is December the twenty third, twenty twelve, and this 410 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 7: is a represent Aeros County case eight C twelve. That's 411 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 7: one seven six two six'. Nine we're At Kelsey Meadows 412 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 7: court And i'm talking with a. Witness Now i'm going 413 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 7: to ask you to state your name for the. 414 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 8: Recording Marston algaarmu, Okay and today you came to this 415 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 8: address for lunch or dinner with who lives here that you? 416 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 8: Know my uncle IS i, Mean i'm, sorry my aunt 417 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 8: and just them and what's their? 418 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 9: Names Sandy malgar And Jim malgar, okay and. 419 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: Are supposed to come Here Marissa. Philsen Sergeant James dussay 420 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: Of Harris County Sheriff's office on everything you just. Heard 421 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: they were going over To jim And sandy's house for. 422 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: Dinner there was no, answer so they made their way. 423 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: Inside that's when they Found. Sandy an ornate brown satin 424 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: chair with curling white vines was wedged under a door, 425 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: handle essentially ceiling the bathroom closet, shut With sandy inside 426 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: on the, floor hands and feet tied up. Trapped she's 427 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: laying on the. 428 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 7: Bat you could see. 429 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 4: HER i could see. 430 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 9: HER i believe she was tied, up, okay and THEN 431 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 9: i got scared AND i ran out AND i told my. 432 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 3: DAD i was, like we don't know who's in, Here. 433 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: Marissa tells the. Officer she left in a. PANIC i was, 434 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: like let's let's get. 435 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 9: OUT i was, Like i'm CALLING i on one And 436 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 9: i'm running out and my boyfriend and my sister are 437 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 9: STILL i think they were in the living room AND 438 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 9: i ran, out, crying. SCREAMING i was, like oh my, 439 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 9: gosh and they were, like what's, happening what's? Happening and 440 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 9: they were out after, me and that's WHEN i. 441 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 3: Called nine one. 442 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 7: One now you said her hands were bound when you saw. 443 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 1: HER i believe, so, yeah, yeah they. 444 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 9: WERE i believe that she was like this when she. 445 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 8: Was saying help based on what you? 446 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 7: Know what's your? 447 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: Feelings? 448 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: Shock someone Killed? Jim what do you? 449 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 4: Think any? 450 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 7: IDEAS i don't. 451 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 4: Know what's WHAT i was thinking in the, CAR i. 452 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: Was, like will could have done? That thirteen years, later 453 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: sitting In lizz's living room In, london she's still trying 454 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: to answer that. Question what happened that night who killed her? 455 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 2: DAD i don't even know when this shock actually started 456 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,160 Speaker 2: to wear. OFF i feel like it was years. 457 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: Shocking that her dad was murdered and that it happened 458 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: just as she started pursuing her own passion for true 459 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: crime as a career studying violent criminal. 460 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: Behavior but that was very short, lived because then my 461 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: own dad was murdered AND i had to go, home. 462 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: Her life morphing into one of the murder stories that 463 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: obsessed her as a. Teenager how does it feel to 464 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: have read so many true crime stories and then to 465 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: have that happen in your own. Life it's. 466 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 2: Insane it's just it was so. Strange she become part 467 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 2: of this genre THAT i had been so interested. 468 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: In back In december twenty, Twelve liz had a realization 469 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: she was uniquely placed to find out who murdered her. 470 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: Dad she was studying. Criminology she spent her teenage years 471 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: devouring true, crime and who Knew jim And sandy better 472 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: than their only? Child all that time reading about serial 473 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: killers in murder could maybe be put to good. 474 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: USE I, Uh i'm thankful, though that that was my, 475 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 2: interest because it helped me protect. 476 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 3: Myself and my. Family it kind of. 477 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 2: Helped, me like put the pieces of the puzzle. Together, 478 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 2: YEAH i, MEAN i think if it weren't for that 479 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 2: strange interest or hobby or whatever you want to call, 480 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 2: it things could have gone, very very. 481 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: Differently it's a. 482 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 2: Mystery she still doesn't have an answer. To too much 483 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 2: for one. Person there's a lot of, GUILT i think pushing. 484 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 2: ME i want to prove everyone wrong basically at this, 485 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 2: point AND i JUST i want. Answers WHEN i first 486 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,719 Speaker 2: heard About liz's, STORY i was, intrigued and in a 487 00:27:58,880 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 2: very small way. 488 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: Relate liz AND i are both daughters who searched for 489 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: answers and the mysteries that embroiled our late. Fathers, NOW 490 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: i just want to preface this by SAYING i have 491 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: no idea what it's like to lose a parent in 492 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: the Way liz, has but this desire to understand what, 493 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: Happened i've been There when my dad. DIED i found 494 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: out he was caught up in A philippines based gold, 495 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: scam causing him to lose the fortune he had spent 496 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: his life, building leaving the rest of us with well. 497 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: Nothing but this answer wasn't good enough for. ME i 498 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: wanted to understand why this. Happened, then most of, all 499 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: meet the man who took his. Money SO i got 500 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: a plane to meet my dad's con, artist a ninety 501 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: five year old White, american SO i could ask him 502 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: to his face if he conned my. Dad if you're 503 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: listening and your parent has been scammed of money and 504 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to meet their con, ARTIST i 505 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: think my first recommendation is don't do. IT i, MEAN 506 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: i only say this BECAUSE i really didn't feel any 507 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: sense of, closure AND i don't feel any nearer to 508 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: understanding the mystery of why my dad fell for this ridiculous. 509 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,719 Speaker 1: Con but this isn't my. Story this is the story 510 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: Of jim And Sandy melgar and their, Daughter Liz Rose, 511 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: melgar a strange and beguiling case where a woman is 512 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: found in a closet with her hands and feet, tied 513 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: her husband dead a few feet away from. Her to this, 514 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: Day liz says she can't be sure who killed her, 515 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: dad but she's certain of one. Thing the wrong person 516 00:29:41,360 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: is in prison for his. Murder you've been. Listening Hands 517 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: tied a new eight part true crime series FROM Bbc 518 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: studios And iHeart. Podcasts new episodes will be released, weekly 519 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: so subscribe or follow on The iHeartRadio app or wherever 520 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts so you don't miss. Out if 521 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: you like the, show please help us by spreading the 522 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: word or giving us a five star. Review I'm Maggie 523 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,719 Speaker 1: Robinson katz and the producer Is Maggie. Latham sound design 524 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: and mix is By Tom. Brignall our script consultant Is 525 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: Emma weatherall production support is From Dan, Martini Elena boutang 526 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: And Mabel Finnegan. Wright and our production executive Is Laura Jordan. 527 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: Rawl the series was developed By Anya saunders At. iHeart 528 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: the Managing Executive producer Is Christina, everett and FOR Bbc, 529 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: studios The executive producer Is Joe kent