1 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: Ye, Welcome to the show, fellow ridiculous historians, friends and neighbors, 2 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: US residents and citizens of the world alike. We are 3 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: going on a journey today to a different part of 4 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: the world, and what better way to get into it 5 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: than to open with a question, nol, have you ever 6 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: seen a guerrilla in real life? Yes, at the Columbia 7 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: Zoo in Columbia, South Carolina, they have. They have a 8 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: guerrilla situation there, a guerrilla situation. Have a guerrilla sitch? 9 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: Now over backs? I believe, Oh, and I'm ben. Oh, 10 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: of course you are. And we have to, of course 11 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 1: give a shout out to our long suffering super producer, 12 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: Casey Pegram. He's still in the wind, but he's here 13 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: in spirit. In fact, today we are kind of producerless 14 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: and peek behind the curtain. It is Memorial Day and 15 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: we are here in the office making this episode just 16 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: for you, just for you, specifically you. Yes, if you're listening, 17 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: you're thinking we're talking about a general do you know 18 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: we don't do that. No, it's specifically you. And what 19 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: better way to start, we thought today than to talk 20 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: a little bit about gorillas. These are amazing creatures they 21 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: are and and and they are majestic and also um 22 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: quite powerful. Oh yeah, a lot of upper body strength. 23 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: They got those big old four arms and those tiny 24 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: little back legs. But man, I would not want to 25 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: run into one in a dark alley or you know, 26 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: accidentally end up flung into its pen. Yeah. They're the 27 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: largest living price mate. Males are about twice the size 28 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: of females, so a male gorilla can weigh up the 29 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: four hundred pounds. And they're they have opposable thumbs just 30 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: like us, right, so they can manipulate, hold and carry things. 31 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: They're also really really smart and they are uh fun fact, 32 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: although they look like they might be ferocious carnivores, they're not. 33 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: Remember cocomm cocoa, the sign language guerilla, right, heartwarming story. 34 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: There still still a little controversial in the science. But 35 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, that that stuff can break your 36 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: heart because it feels like it's having very human, self aware, 37 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,839 Speaker 1: sapient interactions. If you want the men to double down 38 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: on the heartbreak, then there's actually a picture of Robin 39 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: Williams kicking it with Coco and it will jerk some 40 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: tears right out of your eye holes if you look 41 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 1: at that one eye holes. Oh, the Rick and Morty 42 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: reference that we're just gonna leave there. What is it? 43 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: Terry flaps? Yeah, texted me. But on the way up, 44 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: you're downstairs and you you asked me if I wanted 45 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: to touch your terry flaps. Yes, that is a that 46 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: is a reference. Don't go calling hr on us, folks. 47 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: That is a reference to Rick and Morty. But but 48 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: the statement of eiholes, Yeah, it's it's true. It will 49 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: hurt your eye holes and your hearth holes. To see 50 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: Robin Williams with that, that lovely gorilla. Now, Coco has 51 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 1: something in common with our with our protagonist or a 52 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: tragic hero of today's story, because Coco is a type 53 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: of gorilla called a Western Lowland gorilla. Western lowland gorillas 54 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: are the primary type of gorilla that you will see 55 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: in a zoo across the world. There are some exceptions. 56 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: There's an Eastern Lowland gorilla that lives at the Antwerp Zoo, 57 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: and there are some mountain gorillas that live in the 58 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: Democratic Republic of the Congo. And I mean zoo gorillas, 59 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: not gorillas in the wild. So typically, if you are 60 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: imagining a gorilla exhibit, you have seen or a preservation 61 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: you've seen here in the States, then it is going 62 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: to be Uh, it's going to be a home to 63 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: western lowland gorillas. They're generally lighter colored than Eastern guerrillas, 64 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: but in terms of behavior, they're still the same. They're 65 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: they're very intelligent, they're tremendously strong, they're calm until they're 66 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: not well. They're they're highly territorial. They will protect their 67 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: turf and their own If you come up upon them 68 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: and oppose a threat, they will go to great length 69 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: to defend themselves and their loved ones. And occasionally these 70 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: stories pop up in the news like Harambee, the gorilla 71 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: who was tragically put to death. A little kid fell 72 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: in the pen. When a kid a human child something 73 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,679 Speaker 1: sounds so creepy and David Bowie esque and Labyrinth saying 74 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: human child. Well, a kid fell in and as a result, 75 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: Rombe was put to sleep. Yeah. Uh. And today's story 76 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: centers on a humane man, a human man, yes it 77 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: was once a human child, and a gorilla named Max 78 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: who lived at the Johannesburg Zoo. So, as the story goes, 79 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: a guy was fleeing the police. He had he had 80 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: robbed some houses. He was on the lamb. He was 81 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: on the run, and uh, he vaulted offense. I'm trying 82 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: to picture how this happened, Like, did he know what 83 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: he was getting into? Was He's like, that's cool, I'll 84 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: figure this out. Anyway, vaulted defence, running from the cops, 85 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: ended up inside Max's guerrilla pit, yeah, that he shared 86 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: with his um life partner Lisa, his mate, his better half. 87 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: So this guy, this criminal Isaac Mofo Keng, jumps into 88 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: the zoo as as you said, Noel, and Max, as 89 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:03,239 Speaker 1: we had established Elier being a gorilla, is thinking, who 90 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: the heck is this? This is not a zookeeper. This 91 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: is not one of the people that I know, and 92 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: so he defends his territory. What we mean by that 93 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: is he displays signs of intimidation and he moves toward 94 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: Isaac Mofo King and Mofo King. Unfortunately for Max was 95 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: armed and he put a few slugs and an ald 96 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: Max didn't. He shot him in the chest, but that 97 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: was not enough to stop a four pounds angry gorilla. 98 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: So Max bites Isaac and you know, we try to 99 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: be a family show, but bites him in the butt essentially, 100 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: and It sounds hilarious now, but that is a grievous wound. 101 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: So he has Isaac Mofo Ken bitten in the buttocks. 102 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: He's pinned him against the wall. This man is about 103 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: to die. Police intervene and in the process of rescuing Isaac, 104 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: the police officers, at least two of them are also injured. 105 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: By Max, He's not having it well. I mean, you know, 106 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: he can't differentiate at this point between friend or foe. 107 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: He's he's already been threatened. And then these other schmos 108 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: show up trying to apprehend the suspect, and to Max, 109 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: they're just another part of the problem. They are trespassing 110 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: on his land and he's been shot. He got he 111 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: got shot in the chest and then in the neck, 112 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: right through the neck um. But I think the one 113 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: in the neck passed right through. I want to say, luckily, 114 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: the one in the chest was not a mortal wound, thankfully, 115 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: And in fact, I think they actually left it in. 116 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: They left the bullet in because it would have been 117 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: more traumatic for Max if they had had to dig 118 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: around and do surgery to get it out. And they 119 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: put him down, yeah, under anesthetic rather. But we are 120 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: getting ahead of ourselves. We are getting a little bit 121 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: ahead of ourselves. There's just a there's just a bit 122 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: more color we should add to the story here, because 123 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: in many other countries and many other points in time, 124 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: this may have been a story that you hear as 125 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: a three to four minute piece on your evening news 126 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,239 Speaker 1: right you turn it, you tune into channel eleven whatever, 127 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: and people are saying, strange story from a local Columbia 128 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: zoo or something. However, this was Johannesburg, South Africa in 129 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: the late nineties. People were tremendously concerned about crime in 130 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: the city and so Max became um became famous for this. Yeah, 131 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: something of a symbol you know of I don't know, 132 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: maybe rule of laws not the right term, and just 133 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: the idea of pushing back against criminals that were just everywhere. 134 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: The wave of chrime was just awful. And you know, 135 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: we're gonna get a little more into this, but we 136 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: also haven't really talked about the fact that this is 137 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: the nineties and our show is called ridiculou This history 138 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: and the notion of the of not the nineties seems 139 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: a little off even for us. We're like, is this 140 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: really historical? But man, was at a different time. It 141 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: was a very different time. And the way that we 142 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: decided to approach this was to look at what we 143 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: would call a cutoff date, right, like, at what point 144 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: does something become history even though we're creating it every 145 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: single second of our lives. I think we can all 146 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: agree that right now two thousand and eight would still 147 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: be a little too recent, right, but nineteen nine, not 148 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: to mention the history surrounding this time in Johannesburg and 149 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: South African in general, we forget, I certainly forgot that apartheid. 150 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: This this this institutionalized racist government that owned South Africa 151 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: for decades, had only just ended and there was severe 152 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: fall out. You know, they had democracy for the first 153 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: time after the end of apartheid. This um again institutionalized 154 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: um segregation of the majority black population of the country 155 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: and by the minority white government of the country. We 156 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: can get in a little bit more specifics about that 157 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: in a minute, but that's the call. That's the atmosphere 158 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: here in the crime. You know, the non political violence 159 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: is there's no rule of law. It's like a free 160 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: for all industry. Absolutely as a total powder key and 161 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: this idea of max I think it could be argued 162 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: it was sort of a beacon of hope that was 163 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: very quickly latched onto by the community. Yeah. Yeah. One 164 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: thing that may be useful by way of comparison for 165 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: our American listeners is to think of McGruff the crime Dog. 166 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: Do you remember mcguffe? I do, and he but he 167 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: was a cartoon and he was pretty inspiring just as 168 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 1: a cartoon. This was a real life guerrilla that had 169 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: weathered this chaotic environment. And the reason the reason I 170 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: bring up the McGruff comparison is because Max becomes this 171 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: very useful symbol for the police, as we said, and 172 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: he has merchandise that comes out. We've got stuffed Max 173 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: dolls and McGruff would take a bite out of crime. 174 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: Max took a bite out of the butt of crime. Yes, 175 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: and Max was also as as you had said, Max 176 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 1: was real. This was a real incident. But he didn't 177 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: just get stuffed animals made in his likeness. He became 178 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 1: a celebrity. And I don't know if you had ever 179 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: heard this word, but this was my first time reading 180 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: the word spokes beast. Was he a pan sexual, non 181 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: threatening spokes thing? Remember that for Mr show Pat Yeah, Yeah, yeah, 182 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: spokes beast. He was, um the spokesbeast for La Bombo 183 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: Bananas and he actually got paid with a year's supply 184 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: of free bananas. They literally made it rain bananas on 185 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: Max Catching. A computer company hired him to pose in 186 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: ads for its new software. Yeah. I wonder what the 187 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: software was called. I couldn't. I couldn't find any specifics 188 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: about that, but it was, um, yeah, you have a 189 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: gorilla kind of shilling your software for you. That's that's interesting. 190 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: He must have really been beloved. Um. There was. There 191 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: was a drink, an energy drink which I love the 192 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: name of its just called Energade or inner Gate. I 193 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: was wondering, is the inner Gate or energy as well? 194 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: It's sort of like a Gatorade equivalent. I guess. Um. 195 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: They they signed up Max after they learned that that 196 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: was Max's favorite drink for taking antibiotics. At the zoo, 197 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: the zookeepers would slip his meds into, um, a nice 198 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,599 Speaker 1: refreshing bottle of Energade, and so he thought he was 199 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: having a juice party, which you know that I can 200 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: easily see that happen because if inner Gate or Energade 201 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: is anything like gatorade or power aide. Then it's probably 202 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: very sugary. Right. So a bank and a construction company 203 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: also sponsored Max, meaning that they contributed money to the 204 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: zoo for his upkeep, medical bills, feeding, et cetera. Yeah, 205 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: like upgrading his pen, things like that, the infrastructure. Because 206 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: again he was like a local. He was in a 207 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 1: national treasure, you know, a local hero. We got to 208 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: tell the newspaper story. This is great. Yeah, the Saturday 209 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: Star Um paid Bucks for a photo or I guess 210 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: for a photo shoot where Max was browsing the paper 211 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: and they got the photos. After they got the photos, 212 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: because Max clearly as a professional at this point, after 213 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: they got the photos, he went ahead and ate every 214 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: page of the paper. He was a fan. He was 215 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: a fan. He was trying to take it all in 216 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: through osmosis. It's similar to uh, what Maurice Sendak called 217 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 1: the highest praise he had ever received, the children's author 218 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: of Where the Wild Things Are Uh. He said he 219 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: received a note from a fan who that they enjoyed 220 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: his book, reading it, and they also wanted to eat it. 221 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: My girlfriend asked me the strangest question the other day. 222 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: She said, have you ever eaten paper? To keep someone 223 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: from getting it, like like a note. And at first 224 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: I was like, what do you talk? What do you mean? 225 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: And she just you know, I mean, like, if you 226 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: have a teacher caught you passing a note in class, 227 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: rather than having her confiscated and see what horrid things 228 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: you were writing, just eat it. Yeah, I'm like, that 229 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: is baller. That sounds like something people should not admit 230 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: to doing. Well, I'm sorry for throwing her under the bus, 231 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: but you guys don't know did she did? She admitted, 232 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: She admitted it. Yeah, I mean it's resourceful. I think 233 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: so too. But what was she possibly writing that would 234 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: have been like worth consuming right there in front of 235 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: the teacher. Overthrow the teacher. The revolution is now, I 236 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: think so. Speaking of which, yes, speaking of which, we 237 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: could go on to list some of nax's sponsorships, but 238 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: it's more important, we feel too, explore why this occurred, 239 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: whence this came? So we mentioned, we mentioned apartheid, We 240 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: we mentioned uh, the distinction between political and non political crime, 241 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: and unfortunately we could do an entirely different show on 242 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: the systemic causes of apartheid, the process of combating it, 243 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: and the ramifications of apartheid that remain in Johannesburg in 244 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: the modern day. But we feel the cultural ecology from 245 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: from which Max's celebrity arises is as important as the 246 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: details of that that moment in the zoo, oh for sure, 247 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: dare we say much more important. But Max being like 248 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: almost like a batman esque figure like and in Johannesburg, 249 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: in South Africa being the Gotham city, everyone needs a 250 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: hero they can look to, that they can believe, they 251 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: can believe in. And as silly as that sound ounds, uh, 252 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: And you know we're editorializing a little bit here, but 253 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: I can't help but think that's what caused this guerrilla 254 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: to reach such heights of of celebrity. You know, Um, 255 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: just a bit of background, because I I did not 256 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: know quite how far back this stretched. Apartheid became law 257 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: in South Africa in nineteen fifty. Um, things like marriages 258 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: between um, white people and black people were forbidden, any 259 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: kind of sexual relations. The idea was to separate not 260 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: only black people from white people, but black people from 261 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: each other and like sectionalize them into different uh. They 262 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: called them, you know, tribal factions or whatever, and it 263 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: kept them from organizing and kept them from fighting back 264 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: and having political power. Right Um, they had to carry papers. 265 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: It was like Nazi Germany, I mean, and and this again, 266 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: this did not really fully come to an end, at 267 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: least on the books until right. Yeah. This, this process 268 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: of setting aside territory and for black inhabitants of South 269 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: Africa at the time was the things that we're making 270 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: were known as Bantu stands, and ten of them were 271 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: established in South Africa to concentrate members of certain ethnic groups, 272 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: making those groups, in the opinion of the ruling party, 273 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: ethically homogeneous and making them nation states. But it also 274 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: it also, as you said, had the clear effect of 275 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: removing or or stymying the ability of people to band 276 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:46,479 Speaker 1: together in a larger force to combat apartheid. Apartheid was 277 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: based on the principle known as boss cop. Now neither 278 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: no nor I speak this language, but boss cop with 279 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: two a's to s is was this. It's this concept 280 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: that translates from Afrikaans to something like boss ship, like 281 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: being the boss or domination. It's it's essentially it's white supremacy. 282 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: And the idea of the National Party at this time 283 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: was very much solidly based in the old concepts of colonialism, 284 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: the idea that there is some sort of a stature, 285 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: there's some sort of inborn superiority, depending on how one 286 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: defines a race or whatever. And we must also point 287 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: out that these kinds of concepts, this white supremacy stuff 288 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: is not is not a just a general all white 289 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: people are better, because there are also levels in their 290 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: white supremacists ideas that certain white people are you know, 291 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: somehow better than other white people, etcetera. And these concepts 292 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: go back to the very founding of South Africa as 293 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: an independent nation. In nineteen thirteen, this thing called the 294 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 1: Land Act was passed um that began this segregation um 295 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: of Black Africans and the minority whites, and also deprived 296 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: Black Africans of the ability to work as sharecroppers and 297 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: they were you know, denied away a means of of 298 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: an income essentially. Yeah. Absolutely, And this again, this applied 299 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: not just to people that the governing forces characterized as black. 300 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: It applied to people that they characterized as non white 301 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: in any ways. So this also included what would be 302 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: described as South Asians or people they would have called 303 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: Indians at the time, and it would split up families 304 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: because a mother, for example, could be considered um black 305 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: or Bantu, and then um A, a child or a 306 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: spouse could be classified different, and it would literally break 307 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: up these families. Yeah, yeah, that's spot on. Through the 308 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: dual use of bureaucracy and brutality, they attempted to and 309 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: in some spheres succeeded in taking this insane notion and 310 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: enforcing it or or bringing it to uh, horrific reality 311 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: on innocent people. These are not you know, it's not 312 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: like a weird punishment they made up for soldiers. These 313 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: are civilians. These are children, and we see already an 314 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: unsustainable situation. Things like what we see historically. What we 315 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: find is that in cases of discrimination, which always always exists, 316 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: in cases where this sort of execrable suppression and oppression 317 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 1: of people occurs, there is almost always going to be 318 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: a backlash. Yeah, instant opposition in the form of the 319 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: African National Congress as early as the nineteen thirteen Land Act, 320 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: that controversial law that was passed. Um. And this is 321 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: the party that would be like like, if we're talking 322 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,239 Speaker 1: rebels versus you know, the empire, these are the rebels, right, 323 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: We're in Star Wars parlance here, Um and it wasn't 324 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: until the late forties that the idea of apartheid actually began. 325 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: Um the Afrikaan or National Party actually won an election 326 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: using this is the first time you started seeing this 327 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: word apartheid, which means separateness. There's as a fantastic rundown 328 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: um of of all of this in the timeline of 329 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: Apartheid on history dot com um that I that I 330 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: recommend checking out for sure. It gives you a pretty 331 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: deep dive into some of this, and we're not going 332 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: to go into the minutia of all of it, because 333 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: it's a whole, like you said, been a whole story 334 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 1: unto itself. But from the very start you have this 335 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: opposition and a culture of violence, a culture of war essentially. Yeah, 336 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: So the precedence for these racist beliefs existed for a 337 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: long long time. They were codified in the late forties. 338 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: But the history of the African National Congress, as as 339 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: you said, doesn't start just there in the forties. The 340 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: origins go back. You'll you'll hear people report that the 341 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: African National Congress really starts or it's the first inklings 342 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: of this begin and when a fellow named Pixley caa 343 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: Osaka Semi says in nineteen eleven, forget all the past 344 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 1: differences among Africans and unite in one national organization. It's 345 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: also really important to say this that during the times 346 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: of colonialism, many of the borders that were established in 347 00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: the modern states now were created to purposefully divide existing communities. 348 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: So now it doesn't matter if for time immemorial, you 349 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: and you and this the rest of your community have 350 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: lived in this one area. Right the once the national 351 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: lines are drawn by these European powers, all of a sudden, 352 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: you are different states. It's almost like a more extreme 353 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: version of something like jerrymandering, where you're sort of um 354 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: rigging the game against people to ensure that they have 355 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: no voice politically. Right from the perspective of the pro 356 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: apartheid National Party, the activities of the National Congress are 357 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: terrorism essentially. That's that's what they're that's what they are 358 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: perceiving it as. That's what they're portraying it as in 359 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: the international media. But you gotta fight fire with fireban 360 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: I mean, these these uh it's essentially a fascist regime, 361 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: you know, that is that is trying to um utterly 362 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: crush any kind of resistance with violence, and the only 363 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: way to fight back against that is with more violence, 364 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: and unfortunately a lot of the time. I mean, that's 365 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: the thing. The history of this country is is so 366 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: rooted in conflict, just constant conflict from the beginning until 367 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: apartheid came to an end in the early nineties. Well, 368 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: the conflicts change, perhaps, that's what I'm saying, Like the 369 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: notion of it coming to an end in them establishing 370 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: real democracy. That does not happen overnight, especially when you've 371 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: just had constant struggle for decades and decades, it becomes ingrained. 372 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: You know. In nineteen sixty seventy black demonstrators are killed 373 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: in Sharpeville and the African National Congress is officially banned. 374 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: So just just like ten years after the government comes 375 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: to power, they classify everybody by race. Oh, they also 376 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: banned the commun This Party as well in nineteen fifty. 377 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: Let me go back for a second. In nineteen fifty, 378 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: Nelson Mandela is responding to the banning of the Communist Party, 379 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: these racial classifications and such by launching a campaign of 380 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: civil disobedience. But when the A and C is officially 381 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: banned in nineteen sixty one, year later, Nelson Mandela in 382 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one heads the African National Congress's new military wing, 383 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: which launches sabotage campaigns, and these become, you know, these 384 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: become on the ground operations. So no more civil disobedience. 385 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: These are acts too meant to purposely in some way 386 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 1: cripple the function of the government. Absolutely, I mean, they 387 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 1: are in open rebellion. And Nelson Mandela, after many of 388 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: the leaders of the movement were jailed or executed, Mandela 389 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: um was imprisoned as as as you know, for quite 390 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: a long time, from nineteen sixty three until I believe 391 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: just nineteen ninety and they kind of bounced him all 392 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: over town, didn't they been, Yeah, yeah, he was. He 393 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: was originally jailed in Marshall Square Prison in Johannesburg. He, 394 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: along with his codefendants, admitted that they had committed acts 395 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: of sabotage, but denied that they were waging guerilla war 396 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: against the government. Of course, their sentenced to life in prison, 397 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: although the prosecutor demanded the death sentence. Mandela is eventually 398 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: transferred to Robin Island, where he is forced to live 399 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: for the next eighteen years, and at this point he's thinking, 400 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: you know, I may be in jail for the rest 401 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: of my natural life. Uh. He gets transferred to a 402 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: couple of different prisons. There is also a free Mandela 403 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: protests taking place at that time. The politics still stop 404 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: because he is imprisoned, and he in many ways becomes 405 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: a symbol for the fight against apartheid. He gets transferred 406 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: to a prison in Cape Town called polls More Prison, 407 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: and the conditions they're a little better than they are 408 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: at Robin Island. But then he gets transferred to Victor 409 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: Verster Prison. You're a place called part uh. And he 410 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: eventually going back to what what you said. No, He 411 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: eventually in nineteen is freed. He is freed, and he 412 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: am in league with the current president FW de Clerk, 413 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: who was the head of the government at the time. 414 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: They worked together to repeal many of these apartheid laws 415 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: that have been on the books for so long and 416 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: established a new constitution which gave African black citizens the 417 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,160 Speaker 1: right to vote democratically and other racial groups that we're 418 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: also discriminated against, as you mentioned, non whites, and all 419 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: of this went into play in they started free elections 420 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 1: and essentially laid the groundwork for having a free and 421 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: democratic society right. The a n C campaigns to their 422 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: slogan is a better life for all and there's a 423 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: focus on development. This is around the time that the 424 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: the world, much of which was already against the pre 425 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: existing system of apartheid. This is when the world also 426 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: starts to actively support Nelson Mandela in the a n 427 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: C through the soft diplomacy of international accolades and awards, 428 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: most particularly the Nobel Prize. He shared that with the 429 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: Clerk and the the campaign was meant to not just 430 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: break the system, but to build a better one. They 431 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: had and continue to pursue as we're going to find 432 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: uh noble goals. One such would be the idea of 433 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: building a million houses in five years, free education, access 434 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: to water and electricity because many people went without it. 435 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: And this constitution was insanely forward thinking, had so many 436 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: protections built into the language. UM, protections UM that we 437 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: don't have on the books that we fight for daily 438 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: in this country, protection for gays and lesbians, leading to 439 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: the being called the Rainbow Nation. The Rainbow nation exactly. UM. 440 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: Not only that some of those very progressive ideas of 441 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: how to establish good housing for the poor, UM, the 442 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: idea of basic human rights to education, to healthcare, UM, 443 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: workers rights, UM, access to information um again, women, gays 444 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: and lesbians, children, environmental protections UM. And then there's this 445 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: thing that I thought was so cool. It's called the 446 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: principle of the ratchet and this was language built into 447 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: this constitution that said, essentially, even if the government can't 448 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: with the resources currently available, give all of these things 449 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: like schools, housing, clean water to every community all at once, 450 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: it has to convince the courts that they are working 451 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: towards it in a fundamentally real way, which is fantastic 452 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: because it's a baked in accountability. Right. And while we 453 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: are rightly praising the a n C for doing a 454 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: thing that many people around the world once thought was impossible, 455 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: we do also have to acknowledge that the way they 456 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: got there, uh did involve what you know did did 457 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: involve more than non violence and more than sabotage of 458 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: industrial stuff in There's an article in The New York 459 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: Times from that examines how senior officials of the African 460 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: National Congress later after taking powers, said that they had, 461 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: if not actively participating in some of the guerrilla violence 462 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: that Mandela had been accused of and his co defendants. 463 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: They could have at the very least done something to 464 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: stop it. They were tacitly aiding people who were perpetrating 465 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: these events. Again, not all on, not all on just 466 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: you know, soldiers of the pro apartheid side, but again men, 467 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: women and children. The line becomes so blurred because so 468 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: many of these groups are are a little independent offshoots um, 469 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: independent rebel groups, militias that are armed, because apparently in 470 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: you could buy an A K forty seven on the 471 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: black market for what would equate to about fifteen dollars America. 472 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: In UM, there's this incredibly moving and disturbing article in 473 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: The New Republic from called South Africa's Violent Road to 474 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: Real Democracy and it mentioned some of these statistics about 475 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: in the a K forty and how supposedly at the 476 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: time you could order a hit for that same amount 477 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: fifty rand. And this article centers, at least in the 478 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: early part of it, around this hospital called Bara go 479 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: on Off Hospital shortened to the Bara, which is in 480 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: the Sowheeto township of Johannesburg and UM it just shows 481 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: a lot of the comings and goings and interviews a 482 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: lot of the doctors and it just you know, you're 483 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: you're seeing stabbing victims coming through people with these um 484 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: very telltale wounds from a particular weapon called a panga, 485 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: which is like a machete um that the members of 486 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: the Zulu faction would carry um. And it just the 487 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,239 Speaker 1: sense of desperation that comes across. In this article, they 488 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: refer to the doctor's trauma ward as the pit and 489 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: it it just I can't imagine the chaos. And it 490 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: does a really good job of kind of differentiating between 491 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: the political violence that had a death toll of more 492 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: than fifteen thousand over a span of four years, but 493 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: the majority of the violence that outshined even that insane 494 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: number was just criminal violence, right, yeah, And I'm glad 495 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: you're bringing this up, although it is a it is 496 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: a disturbing thing. In two thousand and seven, the South 497 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: African government contacted the Center for the Study of Violence 498 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: and Reconciliation two figure out why this crime occurs or 499 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: what the tone of it is, the systemic causes, and 500 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: one of the things they found was that the courts 501 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: were inefficient and that violence had become normalized. So this 502 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: was expected and this is uh, this is also tying 503 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: in of course, the vulnerability of young people, high levels 504 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: of inequality. From these various factors, we see hard numbers arise. 505 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: I think in the same article you mentioned uh IT sites. 506 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: At least in that time, South Africa's murder rate was 507 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: ten times that of the United States, which you know 508 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: has a national image of a country with a cartoonist 509 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: murder rate here at the US. And of course you 510 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: know with this chaos um the African National Congress was 511 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: constantly at war with the police and their goal, according 512 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: to this article and everything else we've seen, was to 513 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,919 Speaker 1: make these various areas, these townships ungovernable is the word 514 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: they use here. And so you're dealing with this um. 515 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 1: This just decades long struggle that never comes quite comes 516 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: to an end even after apartheid ends. You can't just 517 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: turn that off with the passage of a law. Right, 518 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to address all of the contributing factors, 519 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: the old enmities, because we can't forget that many of 520 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: the pro apartheid individuals that were active in the government 521 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: were also tremendously financially influential, right or socially influential. So 522 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: some of those means of not to sound like a 523 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: banned Communist party member. But many of those means of 524 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: production we're still owned by the forces of apartheid or 525 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 1: propartipe people allow money to be made with constant conflicts, 526 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: right and this we know that this sounds like disturbing stuff. 527 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: But while we're painting this picture, we don't want to 528 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: gloss over the fact that South Africa as a nation 529 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: has made tremendous progress. But that progress still continues today. Uh, 530 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: South Africa as recently as had been characterized by British 531 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 1: papers like The Guardian, as a country at war. There 532 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: were uh the murder rate sword to nearly forty nine 533 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: people a day in in South Africa overall, and of 534 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: course that's not going to be evenly distributed. A lot 535 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: of that happens in the urban centers. But despite all 536 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: of that, this this progress continues, the legacy of the 537 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: African National Congress continues. It's interesting though, because Johannesburg is 538 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: subject to something that we are seeing quite a lot 539 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: of here in Atlanta, which is rapid gentrification. A lot 540 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: of these um formerly uninhabitable or very very highly dangerous places, 541 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: um burnt out buildings, abandoned locations, have now been cleared 542 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: out of squatters, you know, very low income homeless people 543 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: that that are living there illegally. They have all been 544 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: cleared out to make way for developers. Um. There is 545 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: an area, as an article on CNN called Johannesburg's crime 546 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: hotspot transformed to hipster hangout. Um, that's very familiar to 547 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: where we're sitting right here in a place called Pont 548 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: City Market in Atlanta, on a street called Pots to 549 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 1: lay On that used to be very dangerous and a 550 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: lot of crime, and now it's kind of a lot 551 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: of that's been swept away and replaced by bougie hipster malls, 552 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: and that same thing as happening in Johannesburg. Activists are 553 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 1: referring to this as spatial apartheid and calling for occupations 554 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: of Cape Town. Uh. There's there's another article from The Guardian, 555 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: whom I found had a lot of great reporting on 556 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: this by Alice McCool that examines how these housing activists 557 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: are taking over nurses home a hospital and attempting to 558 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:05,479 Speaker 1: gain national and international recognition of the housing problem, both 559 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: in terms of affordability, in terms of gentrification, and in 560 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: terms of historical land theft, which is you know what happens. Well, 561 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: of course, I saw a thing in this article from 562 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: CNN about how these developers are now looking at Johannesburg 563 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: as a a super hot spot for buying up real estate. 564 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 1: One developer in particular, UM, who is doing a project 565 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: called Arts on Maine in a precinct called the Mobile 566 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: Nang which means place of Light. UM talks about these stats. 567 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: He says, it's paid off financially, but it will pay 568 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: off more in the medium to long term. UM. And 569 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: this is a developer by the name of Jonathan Liebman 570 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 1: who is kind of making this his a big project 571 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: of his. UM. Apparently apartments now you can get one 572 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: between the range of two and eighty thousand RAN or 573 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: about twenty eight thousand dollars American to three million RAN, 574 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: which is about three hundred thousand and Liebman says that 575 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,879 Speaker 1: these prices in Johannesburg are skyrocketing so he can buy 576 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: up buildings. He said he used to be pay a 577 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: hundred euros a square meter for a building, and now 578 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: because of the efforts of guys like him, the prices 579 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: are going through the roof. And in two thousand and eleven, 580 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: the government tried to combat this by ruling that local 581 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: councils local governments essentially are required to house anyone evicted 582 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: to make room for a private or public development. But 583 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: the problem is, according to activists, that the authorities who 584 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 1: are charged with this responsibility only provide overcrowded blocks where 585 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: families are still forcibly split up or uh squalid slums essentially, 586 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,359 Speaker 1: and even though it was only meet a fraction of 587 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: the demand. So we can see with this, with the 588 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: ecology the environment in which these events occur, we can 589 00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: see how injustice becomes a daily part of almost every 590 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: human beings life, right at least for that time. And 591 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: so of course there is something tremendously powerful and cathartic 592 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: about seeing justice done both for both For oddly enough 593 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: in speculation, but both the pro apartheid racist forces, the 594 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: authoritarians or the empire from your earlier comparison, and the 595 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 1: rebel forces or the people fighting for equality both saw 596 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 1: something in Max the gorilla because they saw rule of law. Right. 597 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 1: If you're if you're pro police, you're seeing like, oh look, 598 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: rule of law the authorities one. If you're anti police, 599 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: you're saying, oh look, finally, someone who can do the job. 600 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: And because of this, for a time, Max becomes this 601 00:40:53,400 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 1: universally lauded figure, and Isaac the unfortunate Isaac Moco cut 602 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: who goes to goes to jail. He is captured forty 603 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: years sentence, got a forty years sentence. Judge referred to 604 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: him as an unguided missile, a loose cannon time bomb, 605 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: because he had you know, had just a rap sheet, um, 606 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: a very thick one, let's say that. Yeah, and he 607 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: eventually passed away in a psychiatric hospital. But you and 608 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: I were talking to off air about this knoll uh, 609 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: there were some suspicious circumstances to his death. Yeah. Supposedly 610 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: his sister got a call and believe he was a 611 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,320 Speaker 1: sister from somebody from the facility, saying that he had 612 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 1: passed away after vomiting and collapsing. But then when they 613 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,320 Speaker 1: got to the hospital, the story changed to this idea 614 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: that he had um stolen a fistful of another patient's 615 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: medication when they come around with those trays, I guess 616 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 1: with the pills and the cups and gobbled them down. Um, 617 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: attempting suicide and succeeding. But the circumstances are a little 618 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: murky and it's this The whole story is a little strange. Yeah, 619 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: and you have to put yourself in the family's position. 620 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,439 Speaker 1: How how else can you react but with suspicion when 621 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: someone tells you one story about your loved ones death 622 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,399 Speaker 1: and then they tell you a completely different story. So 623 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: there remains uh from that family's perspective and unsolved mystery 624 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: regarding the shooter of Max the Gorilla. Regarding Isaac m 625 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: we should also say Max's story doesn't end when he 626 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: gets those endorsements. We have more news about Max the 627 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: Gorilla Well, he was voted Newsmaker of the Year for 628 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 1: South Africa for the Johannesburg Press Club. Um. He was 629 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: twenty six years old at the time. We should mention 630 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,960 Speaker 1: named this national guerilla hero, It's newsmaker of and they 631 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: presented him a giant trophy a meter high made of 632 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: cake and fruit that he devoured on camera like proudly right, 633 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: super good photo of Max went on to live at 634 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 1: the Johannesburg Zoo as a symbol of justice, a symbol 635 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: that something could be right in the world, until the 636 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: age of thirty four, which is pretty good for a gorilla, 637 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 1: where he passed away in his sleep in two thousand four. 638 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: I want to say, yeah, I believe it was from 639 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 1: cardiac arrest um, which is apparently a pretty common way 640 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: for elderly guerillas to go. And we did find a 641 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: funny story about his love life. Do you think we 642 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 1: got time to throw that in? Toss it in? Okay? Okay? 643 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: So so Max the Gorilla did show up in the 644 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 1: news for at least one non crime related thing, non 645 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: advertisement related thing. We've we found a story about about 646 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 1: his love life that has there's some pretty interesting language 647 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: in here. But Max's partner Lisa, who he who he 648 00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: was protecting, was protecting from Isaac. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Max 649 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,880 Speaker 1: and Lisa were still together. This was a long running 650 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: relationship and uh, some journalists believed that they had perhaps 651 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: lost the spark because Max stopped being interested in intimacy 652 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,760 Speaker 1: with Lisa. Yeah. There's an article from Independent Online, Max 653 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,240 Speaker 1: the Guerrilla Refuses to Mate where they talk about this 654 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: issue and how the guerrilla scientists there at the Johannesburg 655 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: Zoo because that's a job. UM even considered dosing old Max, 656 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: possibly in a gatorade equivalent to drink with UM. Some 657 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,799 Speaker 1: viagraergate ener innergate energade. Let us know right, it's any 658 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: South African listeners, let us know how to pronounce you. 659 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: But apparently guerrillas in general don't really they're not really 660 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 1: that into sex in the first place. So once the 661 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 1: spark is gone, the thrill is gone, my friend, it 662 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: it's gone for good. Yeah. And then Max, as we said, 663 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 1: passed away p fully in his sleep. That's a happy 664 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 1: ending for him. Uh and his widow than Lisa continued 665 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:13,000 Speaker 1: on for about two years. She had another partner, UH, 666 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,319 Speaker 1: nineteen year old named Macco young Buck young Buck the 667 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: boy toy. Uh and Lisa passed away in two thousand 668 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:26,320 Speaker 1: and six at the age of thirty five. She had 669 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 1: during a surgery to determine whether or not she had 670 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: a cancer scrowth. Yeah, but neither of them died of 671 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,719 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds. That's very true. And to this day, there 672 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,319 Speaker 1: is a statue commemorating Max the Gorilla at the Johannesburg 673 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: Zoo that you can go visit in his honor. And 674 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 1: thus concludes our story of Max the Gorilla. We found 675 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 1: so many other amazing things. I had a really tough 676 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: time not putting in more stories. Of animals doing heroic 677 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: stuff with humans. I know there's a lot there, but 678 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:04,680 Speaker 1: you know, we kind of we took a pretty dark 679 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 1: turn in this one, and uh really needed that context 680 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,359 Speaker 1: and that background, and I'm glad we did. It's it's 681 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: it's a little intense, but it also shows that the 682 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:17,880 Speaker 1: nineties totally historical time, my friend, Yeah, for more reasons 683 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,760 Speaker 1: than just like traffer keepers and stuff across the world, 684 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 1: Guatemal in civil war for instance. You know, so, we 685 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: would like to thank you so much for spending some 686 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 1: time with us today. We know this episode went a 687 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 1: little bit long, but we wanted to. We wanted to 688 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,800 Speaker 1: explore as much as we could, the story behind the story, 689 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: which too often gets uh forgotten or relegated to a 690 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,760 Speaker 1: footnote in a history book. And we of course would 691 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,240 Speaker 1: like to hear from you. You can find NOL, super producer, 692 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: Casey and I all over the internet. Were on Instagram, 693 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 1: We're on Facebook. Check us out at Ridiculous Historians, where 694 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 1: you can you can find us hanging out in the forums, 695 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: posing and answering very strange questions. We also might be 696 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:06,360 Speaker 1: posing as other um users creeping Oh really, I have 697 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,239 Speaker 1: a pseudo account. Yeah, did you start one. I'm not 698 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: cann tell you the name though, because they you'll know 699 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 1: it's me. How's your Pinterest board coming, Ben? Oh? Yeah, 700 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,479 Speaker 1: well I had a vision board. Sorry, excuse me. How's 701 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,759 Speaker 1: your vision board coming? Thank you? It's it's a it 702 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,080 Speaker 1: just keeps getting bigger. Yeah, you got a lot of 703 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,400 Speaker 1: vision It's yeah, and it's it's it's an ongoing effort. 704 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,200 Speaker 1: I think a ridiculous historians. Facebook is a big part 705 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: of it. The Facebook group. I've got a picture of 706 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,640 Speaker 1: the Facebook group. I've got a picture of you and 707 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,399 Speaker 1: I in a helicopter, which I think could be really 708 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,720 Speaker 1: cool at some point. So we'd like to hear from you. 709 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,640 Speaker 1: What are some other examples that you remember from your 710 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: neck of the Global woods involving an animal doing something heroic. 711 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: Possibly in the nineties, possibly in the nineties, yes, uh, 712 00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,360 Speaker 1: bonus points in the nineties. But we will be interested 713 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: in any time period, and it may end up on 714 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,239 Speaker 1: a future episode because I think we can make a 715 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: really fascinating thing. It might have to be a list 716 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,920 Speaker 1: because there's so many, you know what, I've gotta I 717 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,919 Speaker 1: gotta get out of here. I've got a trimmed down 718 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,279 Speaker 1: my list. I found like thirty. It's awesome Memorial Day. Man. 719 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: We should probably le go to the lake or something. 720 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,680 Speaker 1: Get on a boat, take a helicopter to a boat. Yeah, 721 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 1: oh man, let's take the ridiculous history copter, the Ridica copter. 722 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: We have a helipad on the on the roof here 723 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,799 Speaker 1: upon city Market. That is a true story, right next 724 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,320 Speaker 1: to the mini golf course, text to the mini golf 725 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,839 Speaker 1: course and the fancy hot dog stand. Yes, so we 726 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,080 Speaker 1: are going to get out of here. As always, thank 727 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,399 Speaker 1: you so much to our super producer, Casey Pegram, Thank 728 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: you to Alex Williams who composed the track, and huge 729 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: thanks as always to our top notch grade A one 730 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 1: of a kind researcher Christopher Hasciotis, who hipped us to 731 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,800 Speaker 1: the harrowing story of Max the Gorilla. See you next time, folks,