WEBVTT - Thou Shalt Find Meaning 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:11.040 Hi, I'm Daniel Scheffler. This is Everywhere, a production of 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:16.120 I Heart Radio. I have traveled to and fro South 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.479 Africa my whole life. South Africa's special to me. It 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:24.319 is my country of birth. The country is both my 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:28.600 shield and my sword. It has protected me and it 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:33.080 has also violated me. For my next interview, I'm with 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:38.240 Richard Stengel, my best friend, Mary's husband and Ella's girlfriend, 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:42.920 Tundy's father. He spent time in South Africa writing Nelson 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.800 Mandela's book Long Walk to Freedom. He also happened to 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:50.520 work for Time magazine as its managing editor for many 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.440 years and the government as Under Secretary of State for 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:58.440 Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs, and has now written a 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:02.360 timely book about disinformation, which he is going to tell 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:07.360 us all about. I decided that for this week because 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.759 my interview with Richard was so fascinating. You don't want 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.720 to hear me. What you really want to hear is 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:17.679 Richard Stingle discussing South Africa and his life on the road. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:23.119 So here we go. On another note, you remember my 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:29.640 friend Sarah Scarborough on episode seven talking about tea and 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:33.800 the history of tea across the world. Well, Sarah and 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.479 I are planning a trip into the soul of Tea. 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:42.479 We're going to China for ten days to UNESCO World 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:48.480 Heritage sites, Tiger Leaping Gorge, and also Shanghai. You can 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:52.240 book this trip with us at a classic tour dot 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:57.080 com slash Soul of t or on my website Daniel 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:03.080 Scheffler dot com, or on her website t Huntress dot com. 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:11.480 Come spend some time with us. We're going everywhere. I'm 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:17.760 with my friend's husband, Richard Stengel, and I've known Richard 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.040 for a long time, and I feel like I know 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:22.920 you better because my best friend is your wife, and 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:27.040 I walk the dogs with her in Central Park every day. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:31.560 So you feel almost part of my life as someone 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.040 who I have not spent that much time with. Well, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:37.440 you're spending time with me, Daniel, when you're spending time 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:42.120 with my wife and my dog, the beloved Toundy. Well, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:47.680 as everybody knows Ella, Tandy is Ella's girlfriend and they 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:50.600 have been in love for two years now, and they 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:54.600 get to spend the funnest time together. And I have 0:02:54.800 --> 0:03:01.119 seen even you soften and become sweet with Tundy. Yes, 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.959 she um, she definitely. I've never been a dog person 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:07.360 before and I kind of didn't understand it, and I 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.359 get it now and late in life, I'm finally becoming 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.799 a dog person, or really a Tundy person. Well, I've 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.760 seen you with her and it's very sweet, Richard. I 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:19.359 love it. Even Michael has commented how like sweet you 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:21.720 are with Tundy. And then if we watch you on 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:26.960 MSNBC and you this like serious policy wonk, like intellectual, 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:29.679 and then I'll see you with the dog and you're 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.360 like soft and cuddly, and I love that. You know, 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.160 it's interesting what dogs do with couples because you direct 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.320 a lot of affection towards the dog and in some 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:40.880 ways not so much towards each other, and that the 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.320 dog becomes this kind of symbol of your connection in 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:46.960 a in a strange way. Well, whenever I'm traveling, which 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:48.880 is all the time, and a lot of the time 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:52.400 Michael Kohn come with me, he'll say, Oh, ellis missing you. 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:56.160 Ellis really missing you. Oh. He'll um. You know, he's 0:03:56.200 --> 0:04:00.520 not the first to have an emotion outwardly, and he'll 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:05.000 say something like, Ella's very sad today because you're not here. 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.560 And I hear it for what it is, but it is. 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.960 It's a beautiful part of the relationship that it's kind 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:17.680 of made my travel life almost bearable because I'm always 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:20.080 on the road. But I know that there's this dog 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.760 at home that's loving Michael. That doesn't have the opposite 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:26.719 effect and make you not want to leave. Yes, of course, 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.679 we got back from Italy last night and both Michael 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.400 and I we went to pick up Ella from Norna, 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.599 and both of us were so like, we couldn't wait 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.480 to get to the dog. And it was funny. When 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.280 we got home, I was like, Oh, everything's back to normal, 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:46.159 Like it felt like you ease into a normality when 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:49.960 it's the three of us opposed to just us and 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.040 we were together in Italy on a holiday. Well, the 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:54.640 way I look at it is, as you know, I 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:58.480 have two sons and a wife, and Tandy I feel 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.640 as the one person in the household. It actually has 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:02.719 genuine affection for me. So I can come home and 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.240 bore boys are completely uninterested at this age that they're 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:11.520 in now. So Tandi becomes my kind of heartfelt friend 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.960 at home. That's very sweet. Richard. I know you have 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.039 a book coming out. Tell me about the book. The 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:22.760 book is called Information wars, how we lost the global 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:26.360 battle against disinformation and what to do about it, And 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.480 it's the story of my time at the State Department. 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:31.320 I went to the State Department. I've been an editor 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.040 of Time for seven years, and I became the Under 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:36.800 Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs, which 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.760 is always thought of that's the chief marketing officer of 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:43.400 Brand USA. But what I found when I was there 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.560 because two events happened about the same time just as 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:50.400 I came into the administration, the Russian annexation of Crimea 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:54.640 and the first of the ISIS beheadings, and I suddenly 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:59.000 saw this tsunami of disinformation coming from Russia about what 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:02.120 was happening, and you Crane and Crimea, all of the 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:07.240 propaganda coming from ISIS about the grievances of of Sunni Muslims, 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:09.800 And this was a whole new world for me. And 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:14.120 we started in both cases these two engines counter ISIS 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:18.080 messaging and counter Russian propaganda. And it's the story of 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.920 how we attempted to do that and mostly failed at 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:23.320 it because it's a really hard thing to do, especially 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:27.839 for government. Right, do you think that we'll ever be 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:32.440 able to get over this disinformation issue. You know, one 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:33.760 of the things I say in the book is that 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.080 disinformation is as old as information. Right as soon as 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.960 there was factual information, there were people lying about it. 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.279 And you know, I joked that that began in the 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:44.479 Garden of Eden when Satan said to Eve, you know, 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:47.040 take a bite out of that apple, and nothing's going 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:49.440 to happen to you. That was that was disinformation. So 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.359 I think it's unrealistic and naive to think that you 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.400 can do away with it. I'm not a purest about 0:06:55.440 --> 0:07:01.240 what truth is, um, but it's hard because us there 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:03.640 will always be people who lie, and there will always 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.960 be people who believe those laws. And part of that 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.280 comes from confirmation bias, which is this idea that we 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:12.440 tend to agree with the things that we already agree with. 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.240 So if someone's telling I agree with you, you're such 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.640 a smart young man. So the thing is, if someone 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.840 is telling you an untruth, but it does adhere to 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.440 what you already believe, you'll be much more likely to 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:27.880 believe it. And in fact, there's a something called the opposite, 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.320 which is the backfire effect, which is when you try 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.520 to disabuse someone of what they believe, they double down 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.920 and become even more confirmed in that belief. So so 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:38.960 that's why it's a really hard thing to come back, 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:42.400 because it's really about who we are as human beings. Right. Well, 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.800 I spend some time with some trumpet support is recently, 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.320 and I think at some point I realize that there's 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.480 such a divide between what I believe, whatever it is 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:57.920 gay rights. I'm kind of more we're all in this 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:03.200 mess together, opposed to what this particular person believes, where 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.640 it is a much more of a it's me, it's 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.240 me alone, and I'm gonna work and do this myself. 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.800 And instead of fighting with them and kind of avoiding 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:16.200 that doubling down, as you say, I just listened and 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.760 it was one of the most incredible things that's happened 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:20.800 to me. I do a whole episode on this because 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.120 I think it's important too to realize that we need 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.800 to bridge gaps, all these gaps that are being created 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:31.920 every day. But it's unbelievable what people want to believe. 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:36.000 And I spend time in ushrooms in India, and the 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:39.760 teachers said to me at the end, when you strip 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.520 it all away, when you strip away everything you are, 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:48.000 your religion, your bullshit, your sexuality, your gender. You will 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.959 only be left with your belief system, and most people 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.960 will never let go of that. Yes, there's a lot 0:08:56.120 --> 0:09:00.080 in there, Daniel Um. And the thing is one of 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.640 the things that Trump did, and I talked about this 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.319 in the book is There became this kind of unholy 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.760 trinity between Trump and Putin? And isis because in some 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.320 ways they were doing the same thing. What did isis do? 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.640 They weaponized the grievance of Sunni Muslims who felt left 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.559 out by the modern world. What did Putin do? He 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.600 weaponized the grievance of Russians who bemoaned the fall of 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:26.280 the Soviet Unit that they were not a global power anymore. 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:30.960 And Trump weaponized the grievance of mostly older, white, not 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.199 highly educated Americans who also felt left out by the 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.640 modern world, felt left out by globalization, felt that they 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.480 weren't having the attention paid to them with the credit 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.480 they deserved, and it was going instead to people of 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.760 color or LGBT people are all of these new ideas 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:49.920 that they couldn't reckon with. And I don't want to be, 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:54.040 you know, sound um paternalistic about that or or it's 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:56.000 a real thing. And I think one of the things 0:09:56.040 --> 0:10:00.400 that we discounted is people who did the a left 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:04.640 out by globalization, which is actually not about jobs being 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.520 shipped overseas, but it's really about automation. Is that, you know, 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.200 machines and robots are taking the place of workers. And 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.640 we've never done a very good job of telling folks, 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.640 you know what, that job and that tire making factory 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:17.320 is going to go away because there's a machine that 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.400 can do it automatically, who won't have sick days and 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.200 do it for one tenth to cost. So I do 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.000 think there's this group of people in the United States 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.160 who feel that way, and we have and and and 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:30.719 we that is Democrats and liberals, whatever you want to 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.000 call it, haven't done a very good job of talking 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:34.640 to them, and haven't done a very good job of 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.880 explaining what the future is like. I mean, and I 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:39.360 don't even know what to do about it. I mean, 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.400 I think that there's a demographic solution in the US 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.439 in the sense that the country is getting darker and 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:47.839 it will be a majority non white country in twenty 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.600 I mean, it's a different place than the world that 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.400 so many of those Trump voters grew up in. And 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:57.200 I think we all have to adapt to it, said it. 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.600 So yesterday I get off the plane and we're driving 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.640 back to the city in a cab and I see 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:08.640 a Confederate flag with New Jersey plates and Michael and 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.360 I started discussing this, and I said to him, have 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.760 you ever seen that? Not in the South? And he 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.720 said no, And he was like, but Daniel, what does 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:22.480 it really mean? And my instinct was, it's a call 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:24.960 for help. I need to help him. I need to 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.600 not call him a fucking racist. I need to help 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.800 this person. I need to show them that me, the 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.600 gay white boy from Africa, is the same as him, 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.400 that I have the same fears and the same loves 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:39.880 and the same hopes and desires. And that's how I 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.400 feel about Trump voters. That's how I feel about other 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.920 They call me other, but to me, they are also other. 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.120 Somehow I have to help them. Somehow, we have to 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:53.480 help each other because otherwise we're fucked. I completely agree. 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.959 And I mean, for years, I was a political correspondent. 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.960 I covered three presidential campaigns. I traveled all around extensively 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.920 in the South, covered Republican candidates, many of whom I adored. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:10.480 And you do see this divide, which is too simple 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.800 a term for it, where where it all goes back 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.760 to America's original sin, which was slavery. And even the 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.640 Democratic candidates are now talking about reparations and things, But 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.440 it's this original sin because it created a cleave in 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.160 America between the South and the North, and the South 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:29.680 and the West, and today the legacy of it is 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.440 is a cultural thing. I'm not even I wouldn't in 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.640 my heart. I don't necessarily call somebody a racist because 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:37.640 I don't know what's in their heart. I do know 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.560 there's a cultural divide and people in the South who 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.720 feel that they've been left out, that the direction that 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.120 America is going in is a different direction that they 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:49.800 want to go in. And look, some of it I 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:55.280 think is animated by distrust, animosity, fear of the other, 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.880 which everybody has. And I do agree that that people 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.079 like that need help. The problem is that it's very 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.160 hard to have that conversation. For the reasons we were 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.720 talking about already, that people double down and their belief 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.600 beliefs even the definition of that term, and not necessarily 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.320 based on facts. That's one reason it's so hard to 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:20.080 dislodge them. So um again, I don't have an easy answer. 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.079 I mean, because even even when you try to disabuse 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:27.160 somebody of something, there are these things that sociologists called 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:30.040 belief echo. So if you if you retweet a Trump 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.400 tweet just to say that it's full of falsehoods, there's 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:35.640 a belief echo that people get from seeing the original 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.280 Trump tweet that never goes away, even if you say 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:42.160 it's completely false. So it's a difficult problem. And I 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:44.160 do think, you know, not not to get on my 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.520 preachy soapbox, but you know, I grew up in the 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:51.040 sixties and seventies, and I always believed what the you know, 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.800 the motto on the which is the presidential seal e 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.480 plurbus unum out of many one. And my family were 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:02.240 all immigrants. I mean, both of my grandfather's never graduated 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.000 from high school, neither of them were born here. And 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:07.520 I always believe in this idea of out of many one, 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.320 that that the values of America, the ideas of America, 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:14.360 transcended religion or color or race, and that if you 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:16.440 believed in that, that's what made you an American, and 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.200 that's what made you not only equal with other people, 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:22.320 but brothers and sisters with everyone. Else and and I 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.040 feel that's been lost. And I feel that one of 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.840 the things that Donald Trump has done is deliberately dividing people. 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.640 I mean, look, when you run for president, you try 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.720 to get votes. But every president, and that i've it's 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.640 been in my lifetime, ultimately tries to speak to all 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.040 Americans and it has this understanding that I'm president of 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.560 all Americans. And Trump doesn't have that. He feels like 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:45.920 I'm only the president for the people who voted for me, 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.160 and even not necessarily all of them. So so again, 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.160 it's a big problem, and I'm sorry, I'm I'm not 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.040 offering any real solutions to it, but I do think 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.320 it trying to understand what the person on the other 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:01.320 side thinks is the first up in trying to come 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:06.120 to some kind of harmonious relationship with people. Do you 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:10.480 think that do you feel optimistic? Let me put it 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:14.680 that way. You know, again, partly for this book, I've 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.400 I've thought and written a fair amount about cognitive biases, 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:23.800 and and the great Daniel Khneman said that optimism and pessimism, 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.000 it's a biological thing, has nothing to do with the 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:28.560 reality you could you know, you could be in the 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.560 gates of hell and feel optimistic if that's your temperament. 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.040 So I am, by nature an optimistic but I do 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.760 think there are some causes for optimism in the sense 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:42.280 that there is more transparency now than there was before. 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:46.400 When when Republican candidates used to run, they just used 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.760 dog whistles to appeal to some of these voters. Now 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:51.840 we have a guy in the White House who talking 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:55.200 to them directly, you know, who's using that direct language 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.200 of division. And I feel, Okay, now we know it's 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.680 out in the open, how do we figure out how 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.160 to move forward from here? So I think, you know what, 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:06.920 in the sense that it's it's open and transparent, I 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.560 feel good about that, not about those sentiments, but about 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:12.640 how we how we figure out how to move forward 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:17.080 knowing that that this is really who folks are. Right, 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:19.640 Let's take a breathe and we'll be right back with 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:26.240 Everywhere after a word from our sponsors. Thanks for sticking around. 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:32.800 Here's more of Everywhere with no further ado. Let's get 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:37.280 back to Richard Stingle. Richard, So, what I would love 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:42.400 to talk about is how travel has played into your life. 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.120 It was such a big part of being the Undersecretary 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.680 of State, and obviously as the Edited Time Magazine managing 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:52.360 Edited Time Magazine, you were on a plane all the time, 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.680 So share some stories. I know, the chance to flying 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.720 coach when you were at the State Department, not always 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.360 and them Mary and I have had many a laugh 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:06.760 about that, imagining you shuttling across to the Middle East 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.560 in a little seat. Well, you know, the thing that 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.280 people didn't realize and I guess I didn't realize before 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.080 going into government, is that government travel, at least State 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:21.520 Department travel, is actually governed by congressional legislation which says 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.399 you have to always your default carrier has to be 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:29.399 an American carrier, that you sit in coach unless the 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.400 flight is over fourteen hours. But one of the things 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.080 that I loved about the Obama administration is that people 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.480 took the rule seriously, and I would see the Secretary 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.639 of the Treasury flying in coach between New York and Washington. 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.200 You'd never see that in any other country in the world, 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:47.440 and you probably don't see it in the Trump administration. 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:52.159 So there was something very American, small are Republican about 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.800 it that I liked, and because in many ways, part 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.120 of the job was, as I said, to project Americans, 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.960 the brand of America. And I remember, even when I 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.840 was in office, when one of Barack Obama's first trips 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.399 to China, he got off the plane and it was 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.439 raining out and he was carrying his own umbrella. Well, 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.480 it was on the front page of every Chinese newspaper. 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.880 The President of the United States was carrying his own umbrella. 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.280 Even the deputy mayor of the smallest city in China 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:22.840 has three people carrying umbrellas for him when he gets 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:26.639 off an airplane. And so there's something American about it. 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.439 There's something small d democratic about it that I like 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.600 much as I didn't always like, you know, sitting in 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:35.840 a very cramped seat for thirteen and a half hours. 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:39.280 And as you know Mary probably told you, in my 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.760 State Department staff knows I'm a very cranky traveler, and 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.280 people would be like, you know, only the guys who 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.159 got the short straw would travel with me at the 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.560 State Department because it's like, oh no, but by way, 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.200 you have special assistance. That's what the job is called. 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.040 You have four as an undersecretary. They're like your go 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.240 to people for different reasons in the world. And they 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:03.360 would always have of pieces of dark chocolate espresso beings 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:06.040 covered in dark chocolate and express those for me. Whenever 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:08.320 I was traveling, whenever I got really cranky, it was like, 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.560 here's the chocolate and here's the caffeine. So that was 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:12.920 their solution. I have the same with Michael. He gets 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:16.920 so cranky. We flew to room last week and he 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.560 was in the worst mood. At some point he said 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.560 to me, just don't speak, just don't speak at all. 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.240 And I was like, oh, he needs food. Yes. But 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:30.320 the thing about State Department travel, and I have to 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.200 say I have I have not done much travel since then. 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.680 Is it kind of cures you have travel for a while, 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:39.840 and part because it's not about sight seeing or feeling 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.600 the culture. It's about flying all night, getting off an airplane, 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:45.920 going into a series of meetings and not seeing anything. 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.160 So I probably went to twenty five different countries during 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:53.120 my three years maybe more in the State Department. And 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:55.359 after the first year or so, I said, hey, you 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.000 gotta put at least one sight seeing thing for me 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.000 every day. I mean, I remember one of my first 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:01.960 trips to was to burn it to me and mar 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:05.200 I didn't get to see anything and it's like, that's 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.520 just not right. And in fact, because part of my 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:12.359 job was to kind of promote cultural connections, I needed 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:14.960 to do things like that sea museums, you know, meet 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:18.119 with young people, and that always was a bit of 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:21.840 a refresher and u But because my kids were still 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:25.480 at home, I tried to travel only between Monday and Friday, 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:27.639 but sometimes I'd be on a trip to three different 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.439 countries between Monday and Friday and spend three nights on 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:32.960 an airplane. I mean it was you know, it's not 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:38.200 fun gallivanting around the world. That's what I've been doing. 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:42.040 So that is what you've been doing. Richard, tell me, um, 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:46.320 tell me a story that was memorable or meaningful to 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:50.000 you about the state upon and travel. Well, for me, 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.600 I'm trying to think of something and more irreverent. But 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.520 this is a little more serious because I got engaged 0:20:56.560 --> 0:21:01.159 in this countering Russian disinformation and was so upset, like 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.080 so many people about what Russia did in Crimea, which 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.159 was part of Ukraine, and then the soft invasion that 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:09.520 they did in eastern Ukraine. I went to Ukraine three 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.520 times and completely fell in love with it. I mean, 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:15.199 it feels like a country that is at war, and 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:17.680 they are at war, but it's this country where there's 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.120 a lot of resilience and it's a you know, it's 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:23.600 a Kieva is a beautiful city. The Ukrainians a beautiful people, 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:26.560 and it felt like there was an aliveness there when 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.679 I was there that that was very inspiring. And because 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:32.320 they're under the gun and they know that, you know, 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:36.080 they're big neighbor to the north, there's always you know, 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.280 kind of threatening them. And I also went two or 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:43.760 three times to the Baltics, you know, Riga, Latvia, Lithuania. 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.439 Fell in love with the Baltics. Beautiful old world places, lovely, 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:51.600 lovely people also who felt threatened for a thousand years 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.040 by Russia, and over that course of the thousand years 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:57.720 they were sometimes part of Russian sometimes not. And so 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:00.040 for me being able to go to those play it 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.560 says as an American and saying we're on your side 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.280 was was powerful. So it was a different kind of 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:09.080 travel and it made you aware of this sort of 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:13.520 existential threat that different people around the world have. So 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:18.080 it was beautiful and it was meaningful, and I felt 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:20.880 like we were trying to do the right thing. Maybe 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:24.639 there's a part of that that is open to all travelers. 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:28.239 Perhaps it's not just going and enjoying the sites and 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:31.280 being a part of the culture and eating the food, 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:36.240 but also being aware of more of the political, socio 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.560 political and as you call it, existential things that are happening. 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:43.520 So go to Africa and be aware of all these 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:51.920 nuances and extremisms that play in a beautiful, scary, incredibly 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:56.080