1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: the podcast brought to you by BNF. On this podcast, 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: we're talking about the energy transition and how our energy, 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: transportation and agriculture systems are changing in many respects. Decarbonizing 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: means different infrastructure and different equipment, and very often this 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: requires a critical ingredient. Lithium ion batteries are used for 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: cars and stationary storage, electrolyizers for hydrogen, and transmission lines 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: for the grid that connects these newer, cleaner power sources. 9 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: So what do they all have in common? Well, they 10 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: all rely on metals. So today I speak with Quasiampofo, 11 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: who leads b and EF's Metals and Mining team globally, 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: and his team member Rosemary Cats. In our conversation, they 13 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: draw from research found in the Transition Metal's Outlook twenty 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: twenty four. We get into things like which metals have 15 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: seen the most fluctuation in the past year, how cooling 16 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: electric vehicle demand is impacting some battery metals, and which 17 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: metal they see as the most critical to the energy transition. 18 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: We also highlight the forgotten metal, but I can't tell 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: you what it is because I've forgotten it. Of course, 20 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: don't worry. Rose will remember to access b and EF's 21 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: research on metals. Clients will be able to find it 22 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: at BNEF dot com or at BNFO on the Bloomberg terminal. 23 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: So let's jump into the conversation with Quasy and Rose 24 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: on the metals that underpin the energy transition. Rose, thank 25 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: you for joining us today. 26 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: It's lovely to be here. 27 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: Dana and Quazy, welcome back. 28 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 3: Thank you, Dana. Always good to be buck. 29 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: So we're going to focus on the transition metals outlook, 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: and today let's start with just defining their ten main 31 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: transition metals quickly. What are they so? 32 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 3: Transition metals? Actually, I know the chemist listening to us 33 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 3: will forgive us because transition metals is actually at classifications 34 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 3: for metals on the periodic table. But then we at 35 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 3: BNF we use it and the slightly transitioned way. As 36 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 3: most of our listeners would probably be aware that the 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 3: energy transition is our bread and butter. And then we 38 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 3: looked at the energy transition as a whole, and we 39 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 3: came to the conclusion that every technology that would ensure 40 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 3: we reach the parent goals would need some raw materials 41 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 3: in them. So you think about your electrolyzers, you think 42 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 3: about your winter turbines, you think about your solar pvs, 43 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 3: you think about your batteries. All these would require some 44 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 3: amount of metals in them. So we classified all these 45 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 3: metals as transition metals simply because they would play a 46 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 3: key role to the energy transition. 47 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: Okay, so apologies to the chemists out there, but thank 48 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: you for bearing with us on these energy transition critical metals. Now, 49 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: this outlook that we do, we do it once a year. 50 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: And what is it that you're hoping to achieve when 51 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: you sit down once a year and look at these 52 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: energy transition critical metals? What's the question you're asking yourself 53 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: headed into it and what are you trying to solve? 54 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 3: I think the fundamental question is that on the transition 55 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 3: energy transition side, there's obviously a lot of optimism that 56 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 3: in different scenarios, in the zero economic transition scenario, but 57 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 3: then will there be enough raw materials to actually build 58 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 3: these technologies? And I think is a question we ask 59 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 3: ourselves every year. And if not, what should policymakers be 60 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 3: thinking about? What should investors be doing, what should mining 61 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 3: companies start doing? And more importantly, what should be these 62 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 3: technology companies start doing if there's not enough, and. 63 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: The price of these metals underpins how the companies are 64 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: actually thinking about them, how much they're producing, exploring. So 65 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about the volatility in 66 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: this space, which metals in particular really have been the 67 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: most volatile, and well, then we'll come to whether or 68 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: not twenty twenty four has been a recovery from what 69 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: was a challenging twenty twenty three. 70 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 3: Basically, when we talk about the prize of metals, there's 71 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 3: always a temptation that is just a mining industry's problem. 72 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 3: But then, Dana, I'm going to give you a formula 73 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 3: that shows you that if we don't address the prize 74 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 3: of metals, we could actually delay the energy transition. So 75 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 3: let's say you are the precedent of a country and 76 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 3: you set a target that by twenty thirty you expect 77 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 3: five hundred people to drive electric vehicles. Now, the biggest 78 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 3: cost component of electric vehicle is the battery. And if 79 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 3: you slice open a battery, which I hope nobody listening 80 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 3: to me will do, you will notice that the battery 81 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 3: is simply made up of metals. So if you have 82 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: metals constituting about seventy percent in some instances of the 83 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 3: total cost of the battery. If prices of metals go high, 84 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 3: prices of batteries go high, and if prices of battery 85 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 3: go high, prices of electric vehicles go high as well. 86 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 3: So essentially what you have is that five hundred people 87 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 3: were hoping to buy electric vehicles, but then prices of 88 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 3: these evs doubled and that five hundred becomes two hundred. 89 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 3: So it's important that we address the price of commodities 90 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 3: to ensure that governments are able to meet their target 91 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 3: for clean energy adoption. If you look at the price 92 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: market today, I think it's actually a very interesting dynamic. 93 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 3: There are two teams that I do every morning arm Dana. First, 94 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: I have my coffee, preferably a flat and the second 95 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 3: thing is I check the prices of metals, cobalt and 96 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 3: lithium being my favorite. Now, if you look at the 97 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 3: prices of most of these metals, they're actually very low, 98 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 3: and it comes down to one fundamental fact. Two things 99 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 3: determine the price of a metal supply demand. If there's 100 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 3: a lot of the metal in the market and less 101 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 3: of it in demand, you have a surplus and nobody's buying, 102 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 3: so prices drop, as we've seen with cobalt and lithium. 103 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 3: On the flip side, if there is a lot of 104 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: demand but less supply, we see actually the prices of 105 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 3: these commodities rise, as we've seen recently with copper and aluminum. 106 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 3: So essentially I think these are the two drivers. Lithium, 107 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 3: cobalt and nickel. Battery metals in particular have been down 108 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 3: the last couple of quarts as a result of the 109 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 3: slowdown in China as we've seen, and then the overcapacity 110 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 3: arm from around the world. But then for copper and aluminum, 111 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 3: I think demand is going particularly from the grid, the 112 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 3: supply is constrained. 113 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: So when we're thinking about the use of transition metals 114 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: in the energy transition, we're thinking about energy storage and 115 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: electric vehicles. Predominantly. The vehicle space has seen a bit 116 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: of a tapering off in terms of demand, and some 117 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: of the forecasts coming from the auto manufacturers themselves is 118 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: showing potentially cooling demand at least in the near term 119 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: for electric vehicles. This of course would then have as 120 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: you so aptly outlined, with supply and demand, this would 121 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: have a lowering of prices for many of these metals. 122 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: Does this then benefit the energy storage space and do 123 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: they essentially scoop up the excess supply and take advantage 124 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: of the lower prices or are we not really seeing 125 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: that interplay between these two sides of the demand part 126 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: of the equation. 127 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 3: It's always a very interesting balance when you talk about 128 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 3: that lower prices lead into low cost of battery. And 129 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 3: I always say this that we as analysts, we focus 130 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 3: on the excel, but every now and then we look 131 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 3: around us to see whether the excel aligns with the 132 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 3: row world scenario. And the example I always give is 133 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 3: that over the last one year, you've noticed that pretty 134 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 3: much every major electric vehicle company has reduced the price 135 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 3: of its evs. 136 00:06:58,200 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: Has this had a big impact on the price. 137 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 2: It's about an eighty percent fall since twenty three, where 138 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: lithium prices were at about sixty six and now they're 139 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: sitting at thirteen point eight. So the prices of lithium 140 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: plummeted quite quite a bit between twenty twenty three and 141 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. 142 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 3: And what that meant is that our electric vehicles became cheaper. 143 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 3: But then here's the catch twenty two, So with lower 144 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 3: prices of metals and lower prices of ev on what 145 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 3: you realize is that miners need an incentive price to 146 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 3: build new mice. Lower prices does not help the mining 147 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 3: industry because everyone wants to be guaranteed their revenue when 148 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 3: they are making a decision that would last thirty forty years. 149 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 3: They're having some minds in Chili that have resisted over 150 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:44,119 Speaker 3: one hundred years. So people want higher prices to incentivize 151 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 3: them to make their capital decision. So today the ev 152 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 3: industry is benefiting from lower prices, but then the mining 153 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 3: industry is actually complaining because they are not getting the 154 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 3: incentive price to develop these new mince. And what is 155 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 3: going to happen is that down the line, in this decade, 156 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 3: after years of enjoying these low costs, you realize that 157 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 3: there are no more new minds to me demind and 158 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 3: we go back to that cycle where deficist prices start 159 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 3: to go high. And that is why we always say 160 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 3: that the mining industry is a cyclical industry. 161 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: So within this group of ten metals that you've defined 162 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: that are really critical, which ones are most exposed and 163 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: which ones essentially were the highlight of this report and 164 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: with other people maybe when they were drinking their morning 165 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: coffee were flicking to is a section that was critical 166 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: to read. 167 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 3: I think, just like a responsible parent, I like to 168 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 3: say that I love all my children equally, so I 169 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 3: love all ten metals equally. But then if you look 170 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 3: at there's actually an interesting metric we looked at in 171 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 3: the report where we wanted to determine the exposure of 172 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 3: each of these metals to the energy transition. So we 173 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 3: looked at the percentage of demand coming from the energy 174 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 3: transition relative to the percentage of demand coming from other sources. 175 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 3: And lithium is actually the most exposed. Then you have cobalt, 176 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 3: So these two are actually the most exposed. So when 177 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 3: you talk about exposure, it goes both ways. Right, If 178 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 3: the energy transition is growing, that ultimately also impacts our growth. 179 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 3: But then if there is a decline in the growth 180 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 3: of the energy transition, that also affect them negatively. So 181 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 3: I think those are the only two in terms of 182 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 3: which one was very interesting to me. Platinum was quite 183 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 3: interesting because it's a metal that we have not looked 184 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 3: at at B and EF in a very long time. 185 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 3: We've done ad hoc studies and very few people would 186 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 3: actually consider this metal or this group of metals has 187 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 3: been related to the energy transition. So platinum metals, mostly 188 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 3: found in South Africa are very interesting. So historically the 189 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 3: are used has been in catalytic converters, and catalytic converters 190 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 3: essentially is in every car that goes around. What it 191 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 3: does is you have combustion between fuel and oxygen propelling 192 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: cars and there is always a waste product that comes out. 193 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 3: So these converts enshure that the toxic air or the 194 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 3: toxic gases that are produced don't get emitted, and PGMs 195 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 3: make these happen. Then we are saying that lectric vehicles 196 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 3: we replace internal combusting egines, so that means that PGMs 197 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 3: will see a significant decline river What we came to 198 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 3: realize is that to be able to build electoralizers you 199 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 3: need PGM. So we actually tried to estimate what would 200 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 3: be this new demand or PGM that will come from 201 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 3: the energy transition, and I bet you the results were 202 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 3: quite interesting. I'll courage everyone reading to get a copy 203 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 3: of it. Go straight to that page and you would 204 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 3: identify some interesting things and you would understand why I 205 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 3: think that was my favorite metal in this report. 206 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: So We've done a show in the past on lithium, 207 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: We've done a show in the past on coalbalt and 208 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: the swapping potentially of aluminum as the prices go high. 209 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: But within platinum group metals, which I don't think we 210 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: have actually talked about on this show, are they countercyclical 211 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: to the other metals and are there reasons why this 212 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: behaves differently than the other cluster of those. 213 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 3: Ten Yeah, Mahamasa Michaeligu Grousia from South Africa, which happens 214 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 3: to be I think the largest produce. I don't know 215 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 3: if you've been to any of these platinum one. 216 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 2: I've been to a platinum and believe me, it's hot. 217 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 2: It's dangerous to be down there. You see people mining 218 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 2: without this shows on because it's so hot, and having 219 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,599 Speaker 2: ice packs in their boots. And you see from a 220 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: structural geology side, just one th one meter scene for 221 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: the value that it has in the market itself, so 222 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 2: you sometimes ask yourself is it worth it? But from 223 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 2: an energy transition point of view, right now we're finding 224 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: the value in it since people want to move to 225 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: electric vehicles, so we definitely are seeing the value of 226 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 2: it within the electoralizer space, as Pasi alluded to. 227 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 3: And also in terms of it being quite countercately called 228 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 3: the fact that arms not many people realize that it's 229 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 3: actually the only pressures metal, to the best of my knowledge, 230 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 3: that also has a very significant industrial use. So they now, 231 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever been to a Tiffany. 232 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: I have not been to a Tiffany. I've seen a Tiffany. 233 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: I've worked pastor Tiffany, and I've seen breakfast at Tiffany. 234 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 3: Okay, let me give you a task next time you 235 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 3: actually you see a Tiffany, walk in there and take 236 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 3: a look at some of the platinum you already have. 237 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 3: So it's actually a pressures metal that happens to have 238 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 3: industrial use. And you know that the horses that police 239 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 3: cut are very different industrial use of your See you 240 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 3: look at Macro grow China, Europe. Then for Juary, I mean, 241 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 3: I don't know what the key drivers are and I 242 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 3: would not even attempt to. And now it's actually got 243 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 3: a TED dimension to it, which is the energy transition demand. 244 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 3: So it's actually the fully metal in my estimation that 245 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 3: actually has a very broad induced application, and that's what 246 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 3: makes it quite unique and to a largest and counter 247 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 3: cyclical to the other metals that we traditionally focus on. 248 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk a little bit about the environmental and 249 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: also human element of this, and one of the things 250 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: we've discussed in the past actually quasy is that you know, 251 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: you've actually been to cobalt mines and seeing how there's 252 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: been a verification process on mining operations using drones, and 253 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: how blockchain has become a really important way and verifying 254 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: that certain metals are actually coming from the minds that 255 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: they're purporting that they are from. With platinum group metals, 256 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: you know, what are some of the ways to actually 257 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,599 Speaker 1: ensure that those who are interested in well the e 258 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: of ESG and the environmental aspect, but also interested in 259 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: the impact on the individuals who are actually doing the 260 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: mining and then environment in the broadest sense, given that 261 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: mining operations are not in and of themselves unharmful. 262 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: Coming from I guess the platinum group metals point of 263 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 2: view being from South Africa where the largest reserves are found. 264 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 2: Speaking about the social aspect of it, A couple of 265 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 2: years ago, one of the biggest mining disasters happened in 266 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 2: South Africa called Maricana, where a lot of families lost 267 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 2: a lot of their family members, and the way that 268 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 2: was handled was a little bit contentious, But I think 269 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 2: the biggest lesson we took out of there is to 270 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: break down how to better take care of our people 271 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: within these tough environments within that they work, and how 272 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: to ensure, you know, the longevity in terms of having 273 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 2: work long term. But from an environmental point of view, 274 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing that we've seen within that 275 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: sector is a lack of land reclamation. So a lot 276 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 2: of abandoned sites have been left after these mines have 277 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 2: depleted their reserves and resources, and I think it's very 278 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: humbent upon the Anglos of this world to focus on 279 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: if there is a depletion of a resource, to actively 280 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 2: be planning reclaiming that land or repurposing it into something 281 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: that the society at large that are within these communities 282 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 2: can still continue finding value in. 283 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: So, when we're talking about the ecosystem surrounding an actual 284 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: mining project, are we seeing signs that mining companies are 285 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: taking this part of the project, the very tail end 286 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: of the project, and are they taking it seriously and 287 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: are things improving? 288 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 2: So definitely, yes, they are taking it seriously. As a 289 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: government requirement to get your license to mine, you need 290 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: an environmental impact assessment that basically outlines what you're going 291 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: to do with the land after you're done mining the 292 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: metal from it. And we do see some really great cases, 293 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: and we see some terrible cases. But I'd like to 294 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 2: just highlight in areas like Groute Island South thirty two 295 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: where they've actually reclaimed as they've mined because it is 296 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: indigenous land, so as an agreement with the indigenous people, 297 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 2: as you mine one quarry, you actually we have to 298 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: reclaim the land, reforest the land as you go by. 299 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 2: But we have also seen instances in Indonesia which we 300 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 2: cover in some of our biodiversity work here at benif 301 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: retailings that actually from the mining of nickel have contaminated 302 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 2: water sources within the region. So there's definitely room for improvement, 303 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 2: much more improvement, and that's why you see frameworks like 304 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 2: the Global Biodiversity Framework coming in place to make sure 305 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: that countries from a government level and a company level 306 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: start focusing on the impact on biodiversity as we mine 307 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 2: these energy transition minerals. 308 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: So it's fair to say that companies are increasingly starting 309 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: to think about the energy transition and decarbonization with biodiversity 310 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: in mind, and both of those are being taken into consideration. 311 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I would say so. 312 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: So you brought up Indonesia and you specifically referenced also 313 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: the platinum group metals in South Africa. What are the 314 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: countries to watch? What are the main centers of mining 315 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: that really are highlighted among this group of ten. 316 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 3: Historically there has been focused if we talked about the 317 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: countries to watch, the focus has actually been on the 318 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: countries that produce these But then what the energy transition 319 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 3: is actually teaching us is that a lot of people 320 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 3: care beyond where these pits are located. And I think 321 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 3: a few weeks ago we were the Climate Week in 322 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 3: New York and myself in you and then it would 323 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: amaze you the number of sessions that were held in 324 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 3: New York on mining and there are no minds in 325 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 3: New York. So I think countries to watch. The United States, 326 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 3: they've implemented the Inflation Reduction Act, which essentially helps the 327 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 3: US to meet some of his demand from raw materials. 328 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 3: We have the Bloomberg events held during Climate Week as 329 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 3: well on renewable energy, tripling renewable energy. I think, for me, 330 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 3: one of the highlight was the President of the EU 331 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 3: given her speech and at the tail entry talks about 332 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 3: critical raw materials, So obviously EU is origin to be 333 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 3: on the watch list as well. And then you've got 334 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 3: the countries that actually produce these. We've already talked about 335 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 3: South Africa, We've talked about Indonesia. We can also talk 336 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 3: about Zimbabwe, we can talk about Chile, we can talk 337 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 3: about Argentina, we can talk about of course Canada, who 338 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 3: wouldn't and then the list goes on and on and on. 339 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 3: But then essentially I think the key thing to highlights 340 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 3: with this question is that it's no more just the 341 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 3: producers that care about these the consumers also equally care 342 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 3: and for us are being f and in the report 343 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 3: we tried to actually highlight. 344 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: So you've already established that there's not enough supply of 345 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: some of these metals. Are there any countries that are 346 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: essentially keeping it all to themselves and recognize the really 347 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: high value in hagging it. 348 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 349 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 3: Thing, It's actually actually a very interesting conversation, Dana, that 350 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 3: came up last week at Climate Week. So the Atlantic 351 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 3: Council actually launched the public reports on Indonesia and how 352 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 3: they managed to sort of I would say, put in 353 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 3: place policies that restricted the export of nickel a few 354 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 3: years back, and ultimately what happened is that that ended 355 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 3: up making Indonesia the largest producer. And whether in that 356 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 3: report whether that could be a template countries in Africa 357 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 3: could actually in order to dominate the industry, and I think, 358 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 3: just like everything else, it always depends. There are a 359 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 3: lot of factors that come into play. Because internally, obviously 360 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 3: that policy of banning raw materials, I think in the 361 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 3: long term, if every country restrict the expert of these 362 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 3: raw materials, that does not help the energy transition, right, 363 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 3: So it's important to highlight that governments need to balance 364 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 3: their local target with a long term ambition of reaching 365 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 3: the zero and free flow of these raw materials would 366 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 3: actually help make the world better. The second thing is 367 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 3: also about how do you then incentiviize local economy because 368 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 3: for most of these countries, the energy transition is not 369 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 3: just a transition, is also an opportunity to industrialize. And 370 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 3: what we saw in Indonesia is that raw materials can 371 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 3: actually become a catalyst for industrialization with the right policies. 372 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 3: So the policy in Indonesia's case was the fact they 373 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 3: restricting export of these metals, which work for nickel for 374 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,479 Speaker 3: a host of reasons, the same policy did not actually 375 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 3: work for copper. So it's not always universal that restricting 376 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 3: export and consuming it locally always works. But what I 377 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: think in March is for other economies looking to replicate 378 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 3: the Indonesia model, is that it's always important to have 379 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 3: good business friendly policies as well. It's good to have 380 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 3: infrastructure because in the end, if you look at the 381 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 3: Indonesian story again, a lot of investment went into producing 382 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 3: these industrial packs, railways, power that actually help. It is 383 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 3: good to really have that certainty of capital being deployed 384 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 3: and recovered in the country because imagine going into a 385 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 3: country where you put in place a planned two years 386 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 3: later government changes policy that you can do XYZ, and 387 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 3: I think that limits investments. So I think overall, I 388 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 3: would just end by saying that other countries looking to 389 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 3: replicate this model one should balance their local economy needs 390 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 3: with a long term energy transition needs. Two, it's important 391 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 3: to have the right business friendly policies. Three, it's also 392 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 3: important to have infrastructure in place. And then finally they 393 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 3: assurance that once company invests in the country they would 394 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 3: be able to recover their capital and turns on it. 395 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: So you brought up New York Climate Week, and actually 396 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: the next place where policy makers, specifically the United Nations 397 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: come together to discuss decarbonization is at COP twenty nine, 398 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: and one of the things they've brought up is that 399 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: it's more than likely we're going to be talking a 400 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: lot about energy storage and a increase potentially sixfold increase 401 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 1: of energy storage coming out of that meeting. So as 402 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: we think about the future and COP meetings and these 403 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: stated goals that all seem to focus on twenty to fifty, 404 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: is this really important year? Do we have enough transition 405 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: metals to actually meet twenty fifty net zero targets? 406 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 3: Do you want the simple as all the long one? 407 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: I want the long answer, Mark. 408 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 3: Let's start with the short fast. So now it's the 409 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 3: long answer. It depends, and it depends in the sense 410 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 3: that there are ten metals, obviously, and some of them 411 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 3: run outs based on today's reserves quicker than others. Because 412 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 3: there are dos as I talked about earlier, there are 413 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 3: some metals that we would need a lot more than others. 414 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 3: So I think it's important to acknowledge that overall there's 415 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: not enough, with the exception of platinum group, where we 416 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 3: feel that there's silk quite some latent capacity in the 417 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 3: market that could be ramped up to meet the growing 418 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 3: demand from hydrogen. But with a reception of that, if 419 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 3: you look at all these other metals, whether it's nickel, 420 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 3: whether it's lithium, whether it's copper, whether it's aluminum, there 421 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 3: is not enough. But then the problem is that it's 422 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 3: very easy to figures on the trees and mister forests. 423 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 3: If you look at the market today, it's very easy 424 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 3: to assume that low prices supplus in the market is 425 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 3: very easy to forget that it's a journey to twenty 426 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 3: fifty and the long term prospect. If there's anything I 427 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 3: want anyone to take out of the podcast, the long 428 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 3: term prospect for supply demand is not looking good and 429 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 3: that could affect the transition. And I think earlier on 430 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 3: I talked about the formula that if we don't address metals, 431 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 3: we are not addressed in climate change solutions. 432 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: So you've outlined that there's not a sufficient amount of 433 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: greenfield exploration in order to meet long term demand. But 434 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: what about metals recycling and you know, in recent years, 435 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: and we have talked about that on this show, that 436 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: there has been not the most favorable economics for metals 437 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 1: recycling from batteries and that it has been with many 438 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: of these cheaper to actually focus on these green field sites. 439 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: Do we see that changing in the future, and does 440 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: metals recycling have a role to play and do we 441 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: essentially have enough if we find a better way of 442 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: reusing the metals that we've already extracted. 443 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's actually a good point, and I think it's 444 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 3: time probably to use that opportunity to supportlight that this 445 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 3: is the first time in the Transition Metals outlook that 446 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 3: for each of the metals that we talk about in 447 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 3: the report, we consider the supply that would come from recycling. 448 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 3: And I think it's important to acknowledge, like I said, 449 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 3: as analysts, once in a while, we take ourselves out 450 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 3: of the excel and look around us for real life examples, 451 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 3: and you can see that globally we've done very well. 452 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: And when I say we, pretty much all of us 453 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 3: have done well in recycling plastics. But then you ask ourselves, 454 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 3: how many of us have actually bought a new phone 455 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 3: and decided to recycle the old phone? And a number 456 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 3: of our listeners will probably be having old phones stuck 457 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 3: in their drawers next to their beds, right And for me, 458 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 3: that indicates that, no matter how bullish or optimistic we 459 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 3: are about recycling, if we are not sending in those 460 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 3: scraps that would enable recycling companies to actually recycle these metals, 461 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 3: then we're doing the cycle without the reed or the 462 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 3: other way around. So dya That leads me to my 463 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 3: next point. How can recycling play an important role in 464 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 3: the energy transition? So one, it's about the availability of feestocks. 465 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 3: So if you're listening to me, please, next time you 466 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 3: buy your iPhone or your some song or whatever phone 467 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 3: it is, please make sure that you recycle the old one. 468 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 3: The same applies to our cars as well and other 469 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 3: our household items. The second thing is that it's important 470 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 3: that governments actually craft policies like they've done with plastics. 471 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 3: So metropolitan cities have enforced laws that would ensure that 472 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 3: you separate your plastics from your other things that end 473 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 3: up in the landfills. So it's important that if we 474 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 3: are to have metals play a key role, recycling play 475 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 3: a key role in the energy transition, it has to 476 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 3: be Poller sees that has to do with a collection 477 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 3: and all the extents. And I think the third thing 478 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 3: is about technology. Even if we send these to scrap, 479 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 3: if the technology to recycle them is not there, there's 480 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 3: very little these companies can do. So I think it's 481 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 3: important that investments go into the technologies that would ensure 482 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: that we recover most or all of these metals once 483 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 3: they reach the end of life. And with these three things, 484 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure that we're going to see magic happening 485 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 3: in the recycling industry and it could potentially actually meet 486 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 3: about a head of our needs by twenty fifty. From 487 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 3: an energy transition perspective. 488 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 1: I'll certainly be keeping an eye on what's happening in 489 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: the recycling space and the technology developments there. But let's 490 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: zoom out to what's happening now with these green field sites. 491 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: How much money is actually needed to meet demand When 492 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: it comes to exploring, is there enough money going into 493 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: it to essentially facilitate the transition in the scope that 494 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: we're talking about. 495 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 3: So, I think, once again is a long term view, right, 496 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 3: So I'm just going to take our listeners to acknowledge 497 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,719 Speaker 3: or to look at the forests and the simple answer 498 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 3: is no. So in the report we actually crunch the 499 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 3: numbers on how much investments need to go into new 500 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 3: supply and to ensure that we don't fall off the cliff. 501 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 3: So as our listeners will probably be aware, there are 502 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 3: two scenarios we look at BNF that ETS which is 503 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 3: economic transition scenario, which looks at technologies of today, no 504 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 3: new policies coming online, and more importantly, the deployment being 505 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 3: led by costs. And we think that to be able 506 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 3: to meet that ETS demand, we need one point six 507 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 3: trillion dollars by twenty to fifty and if you extend 508 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 3: that into the net zero scenario, that number jumps out 509 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 3: to two point one trillion dollars. 510 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: So you've outlined how much money we actually need to 511 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: go into that space. But how far are we have 512 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: the mark. 513 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 3: We're really far off at the moment. Like I said, 514 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 3: it's just so easy. There's a lot of fixation on 515 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 3: the fact that the market seems well supplied in the 516 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 3: short term, but then by twenty thirty the cracks start 517 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 3: to reveal, and I think we need to really start 518 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 3: investing in these now in order not to bear the. 519 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: Pain later twenty thirty is not that far off in 520 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: the distance. Let's get even closer to now, though. Let's 521 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: talk about prices. So we copper, the thing that you 522 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: check in the morning when you're drinking your coffee. Are 523 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: we seeing that swap with aluminum, and are we seeing 524 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: that actually continuing to be a trend or with decreases 525 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 1: in demand and therefore copper price is lowering, they're no 526 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,239 Speaker 1: longer that same impetus to actually think about aluminium or 527 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: aluminium in the same way. 528 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I like you when you get the aluminium aluminum. 529 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 3: That's actually what reminds me that they know you're American, 530 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 3: aren't you? 531 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: I am American? 532 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 3: Okay, great, So we've seen this play out before. Prices 533 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 3: Whenever prices of commodities go high, it's not actually only 534 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 3: supply that response. Usually would see that people would build 535 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 3: new mines because there's an incentive to make money in there. 536 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 3: But then there's also something called a demand response. Mind you, 537 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 3: the people who consume these metals also have budgets. Right 538 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 3: If budget said that this year we're going to spend 539 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 3: one billion only in cables between New York and DC 540 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 3: or Johanna's Big and Cape Town, then all of the 541 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 3: suddudden prices of copper, which is a key row material 542 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 3: for great rises. So then they probably go back to 543 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 3: the draying board and ask themselves, we can't keep up 544 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 3: with this, what are some of the alternatives that we 545 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 3: could potentially look at instead of copper? And what usually 546 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 3: comes up is aluminum. We've known that aluminium has sixty 547 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 3: percent of the conductivity, but then were prices obviously going 548 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 3: so high, they come to a conclusion that sixty percent 549 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 3: conductivity compared to copper is actually not that bad. So 550 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 3: I think those are some of the unintended consequences of 551 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 3: letting price rise so high to the point where companies 552 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 3: start looking for alternatives beyond just a grade. We saw 553 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 3: that happening battery as well. Everybody thought little Man batteries 554 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 3: will last forever, but they're stdio highn right. So I 555 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 3: think the unintended consequences of not managing prices is the 556 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 3: fact that human ingenuity knows no bound. People get a 557 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 3: lot more creative when they hit that wall of higher 558 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 3: prices and they start thinking about alternatives, and that is 559 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 3: actually going to play quite significantly in the energy transition 560 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 3: across all the technologies. 561 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: Well, when you're dealing with commodities, because they are so 562 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: responds to disapply and demand balance, and the prices fluctuate, 563 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: and certainly traders want some degree of fluctuation in order 564 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: to make money off of this. It looks like it's 565 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: a nonlinear path. So we've established that the platinum group 566 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: metals may actually, because they have different sources of demand, 567 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: may actually have a smoother near term. Lithium highly exposed, 568 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: coalbalt potentially very exposed. Where does graphite fall on this 569 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: gradient of metals that are really exposed to the transition 570 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 1: and therefore fluctuating or potentially you know, have a little 571 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: bit of a smoother future other than my graphite pencils. 572 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: Where does graphite fall in here? 573 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 3: Graphite pencils? Indeed, and I always say this that so 574 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 3: graphits is actually carbon. So there are three popular products 575 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 3: of carbon that we know is a pressure and heats 576 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 3: of carbon that result in multiple products that we know. 577 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 3: The lease of them is coal, which we burn to 578 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 3: produce power, which is mostly not clean. When it gets 579 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 3: a little bit more pressure and heats, it produces graphites. 580 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 3: And actually when you get them more pressure and heat 581 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 3: to produce diamond. So i'd say this is that graphite, 582 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 3: it's a disappointed diamond, and then well, please don't. 583 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: Tell you the price fluctuate wildly is in question. 584 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 3: It does, and it's mostly is historically has been tied 585 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 3: to steel production, so in electrodes, but increasingly we are 586 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 3: seeing that the demand from anode. So every battery has 587 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 3: a positive and a negative, So the positive part of 588 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 3: the batteries are cathode, the negative part is the anode, 589 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 3: and historically the metal or the mineral that has been 590 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 3: used as the anode material is graphite. So because we 591 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 3: see the steel industry being relatively stable, we've not seen 592 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 3: that fluctuation in graphite prices for a while. But now 593 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 3: that we gain increase demand from the anode batteries, we 594 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 3: think that towards the end of the decade we might 595 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 3: start seeing the volatility we see in other commodities that 596 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 3: get exposed to their energy transition. 597 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: So with somebody who lives their day thinking about the 598 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: metals industry, how often do you speak to your colleagues 599 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: who are actually focused on these sources of demand. So 600 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: the electric vehicle space, you know, trying to figure out 601 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: whether or not that is going to increase down the road, 602 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: for various reasons, whether or not they are consumer driven 603 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: or policy driven. Is that something that is heavily weighing 604 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: on you when you're looking at something like the Transition 605 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: Metals outlook and trying to put all of these different, 606 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: you know, seemingly disjointed but all interconnected things together. 607 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 3: I think you really spot on there. That's actually the 608 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 3: main reason for TMO. When we started thinking about TMO, 609 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 3: there was a lot of disjointed conversation. You've got miners 610 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 3: talking about supply from one end, We've got electric vehicle 611 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,239 Speaker 3: teams talking about even demand from one end, and then 612 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 3: you've got the hydrogen team talking about electoralizer. So the 613 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 3: whole idea of TMO was to really aggregate all the 614 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 3: different conversations we have at BNF around supply chain into 615 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 3: one document, but then extending that to the industry. I 616 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 3: think for us a keep out of our job. It's 617 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 3: really taking all these different end US sedgement conversations that 618 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 3: you talk about and compiling them into that one narrative 619 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 3: for us to ask the fundamental question is enough metals 620 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 3: to meet the needs of the energy. 621 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 2: Transition And just to add on that quasi so benef 622 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 2: recently hosted the TMO outlook as part of the LME Week, 623 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: and I think that came out quite prominently from our 624 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 2: panelists to say, you need to understand the supply chain 625 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 2: from end to end, and we this is a time 626 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 2: with the energy transition to actually start talking to each 627 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 2: other because in the past we always had our end 628 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 2: users didn't understand where the metal came from and we 629 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: didn't understand how the metal transformed into the end. Using 630 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 2: what challenges they have with the energy transition, we see 631 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 2: a lot more collaboration from end to end. One of 632 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 2: those examples is like Tesla that's now very integrated into 633 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: understanding where the demand or where the supply of its 634 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 2: material is coming from and to build out its supply 635 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: chain understanding exact nuances. 636 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: So LM being the London Metals Exchange Week and then 637 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: this conversation came up perfectly. So while I know neither 638 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: of you is going to pick a favorite metal, I 639 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: am going to ask you to pick a favorite source 640 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: of demand in terms of how much you I think 641 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: it's influencing prices at the moment. Is it the electric 642 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: vehicle space or is it energy storage that you're more 643 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: focused on, or something that maybe I'm missing. 644 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 2: I would say we're focused on the electric vehicle space. 645 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 2: Energy storage definitely has its place because from a renewable 646 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 2: energy point of view, you need something to store the 647 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 2: energy when everything is varied. But I would say from 648 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 2: an electric vehicle space, I'm not sure about you crazy. 649 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 3: I mean, I jump on the buzz where that has 650 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 3: become pretty popular in the enerty in hydrogen. So for us, 651 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 3: this is the first time that we actually looked at 652 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 3: the metals that were going to the production of electrolyizers. 653 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 3: I'm used to produce hydrogen, and obviously PGM will play 654 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 3: a key role. So for us, it was really from 655 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 3: a research and analytical perspective. It's really that particular end 656 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 3: use that stretch our thinking as to how can we 657 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 3: actually accurately estimate this when there's so much noise in 658 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 3: the hydrogen market. And I'd like to say that I 659 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 3: think we did quite well in trying to give this estimating. 660 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 3: With that that makes it my favorite end use. 661 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: Introduce a new metal to the conversation, one that actually 662 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: crosses between a source of emissions and also as part 663 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: of the solution, so manganese sits between steel and then 664 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: the batteries that we've been talking about that are part 665 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: of the solution. Can you talk a little bit more 666 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: about manganese and way many people think it might be 667 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: a forgotten metal. 668 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 2: Thanks for the question, Dana. I was just waiting for that, 669 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: because no one ever talks about manganese. It is the 670 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 2: forgotten metal. From a market cap point of view, it's 671 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 2: one of the smaller ones compared to copper and nickel. 672 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 2: But you are right to say that, yes, it plays 673 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 2: an important role in the steel industry in that ninety 674 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: seven percent of manganese consumption goes into steel, but also 675 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: the more exciting part of my career now I was 676 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 2: looking at it from a battery metal point of view. 677 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 2: It's one of those that we hope to help cheapen 678 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 2: battery chemistries because it's becoming quite popular in chemistries like LFP, 679 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 2: So a lot of people are now looking into MFP 680 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: as a substitute. So manganese is really good at substituting, 681 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 2: similarly to elimini. 682 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: Went to LFP and MFP stand for. 683 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: So it's a battery chemistry variation that has these specific 684 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 2: metals in it, specifically lithium. Obviously within manganese is a 685 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 2: component iron and then phosphate. As we saw in this 686 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 2: year's EVO, LFP, which is lithium ion phosphate, is taking 687 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 2: quite a big share of the market. But we also 688 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 2: see LMFP coming into play as it has similar characteristics 689 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 2: to LFP, but it's slightly cheaper. So yeah, Dana, it 690 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: would be great to actually come back and have a 691 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: chat with you about manganese's role in the battery and 692 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 2: specifically the lithium ion battery market. 693 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: So manganese forgotten, no more Rose crazy. Thank you so 694 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: much for joining. 695 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 3: Thanks for having us, Dan, Thank. 696 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 2: You for having us, Dana. 697 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray 698 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: with production assistants from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg n EF is 699 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. 700 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 1: This recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed 701 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: as investment advice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to 702 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg ANNIAF should not be 703 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: considered as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision. 704 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its affiliates makes 705 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness 706 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: of the information contained in this recording, and any liability 707 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: as a result of this recording is expressly disclaimed.