1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to steph you missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: Tracy B. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. We have an 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: interview today. Yeah you did, I did I did do it. 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: We haven't had an interview in a while, that's correct. 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: Today we are talking to the Secretary of Education, John B. King, Jr. 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: And Secretary King joined the United States Department of Education 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: as a principal senior advisor in and before that, he 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: was the Commissioner of Education for the State of New York. 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: But his career really began as an educator. He taught 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: social studies in San Juan, Puerto Rico and Boston, Massachusetts, 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: and then earlier this year, we got an email from 13 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: the Department of Education asking whether we might like to 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: have him on the show. I'm gonna go ahead and 15 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: thank the Department of Education for asking that because this 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: turned out to be quite because the answer was immediately 17 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: uh huh, yes, yes, yes, that was yes. But then 18 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: it was also okay, how would that work because we're 19 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: not really, you know, an education policy podcast, and that 20 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't that wouldn't really be what our listeners would be 21 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: up for. So what we did was we quickly decided 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: on a topic that at that point was completely new 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: to me and I think also to Holly. It was 24 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation. I had never heard of this before. 25 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: It was never mentioned in any of my history classes. 26 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: It also didn't come up in any of our many 27 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: previous episodes about slavery, the Civil War and reconstruction, of 28 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: which we have a lot until our recent episode on 29 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: contraband camps that Holly researched, that actually was researched after 30 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: this whole interview was scheduled. Yes, but had it happened yet. 31 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: It hadn't happened yet. And I think part of it 32 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: is that this particular document gets amassed into like a big, 33 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: kind of glossed over thing of well, there was a 34 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: lot of back and forth, you know, leading up to 35 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: the Emancipation Proclamation, and it kind of gets lumped in 36 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: and it doesn't get a moment to stand on its 37 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: own and be examined. The Emancipation Proclamation, the final one 38 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: issued by Abraham Lincoln on January one of eighteen sixty three, 39 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: is of course way more familiar to most people. That's 40 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: the one that declared that people enslaved in states that 41 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: were rebelling against the Union quote are and henceforward shall 42 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: be free. That January first Emancipation Proclamation did not immediately 43 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: free everyone who was enslaved in the United States. It 44 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: only applied to the Confederate states that were in rebellion, 45 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: but it did just set the stage for the eventual 46 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: abolition of slavery in the entire United States. Another date 47 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: that comes up pretty regularly is June tenth, which is 48 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: June nineteenth of eighteen sixty five, which is when the 49 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: people of Galveston, Texas finally got the news the Emancipation 50 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: Proclamation had happened. At that point, the war had also ended, 51 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: so a lot of times that come up as like 52 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: the last uh, like the last holdout of Chattle slavery 53 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: in the United States. Slavery was formally abolished nationwide with 54 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: the adoption of the Thirteenth Amendment on December eighteenth of 55 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty five, So what we're talking about today is 56 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: all stuff from way before that. The preliminary Emancipation Proclamation 57 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: was basically a one day warning of the proclamation that 58 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: was to come that following January. The document itself is 59 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: one of Secretary King's particular interests, and while he was 60 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: Commissioner of Education in New York, he took the document 61 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: itself on a seven city tour as part of an 62 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: exhibition called First Step to Freedom. The exhibition started out 63 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: at the Schomberg Center for Research in Black Culture in 64 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: New York City and from there, as we said, it 65 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: toured to seven other cities. Secretary King also co authored 66 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: the text that went along with that exhibition, and the 67 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: first part of our interview with him, we are going 68 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: to talk about why Lincoln decided to basically warn the 69 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: rebelling states of what was coming, and how that document 70 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: fit into the arc of how the Civil War progressed 71 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: uh from originally from the Union point of view being 72 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: more about retaining the Union, to eventually from the Union 73 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: point of view being about abolishing slavery. So joining us 74 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: today is Secretary of Education John B. King, Jr. Thank 75 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: you so much for being on the show today. Happy 76 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: to do it. So I have heard from so many 77 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: folks on your staff that one of your passions is 78 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: the Preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, and so on September eighteen sixty two, 79 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: which was a hundred days before he issued the Emancipation Proclamation, 80 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: President Abraham Lincoln issued this preliminary Proclamation that said, among 81 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,679 Speaker 1: other things, that if the rebelling States did not return 82 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: to the Union, they're enslaved populations would be forever freed. 83 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: So led to President Lincoln basically warning the rebelling states 84 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: that this was going to happen. Well, so, you know, 85 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: in many ways it was for Lincoln a matter of 86 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: political strategy right to build public will around the Emancipation Proclamation. 87 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: He wanted to both convey that the South had had 88 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: an opportunity uh to return to the Union and also 89 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: build public understanding that this was essential step um in 90 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: order to successfully prosecute the Civil War. Um and interestingly, 91 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: he sort of timed issuing the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation for 92 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: a moment when the North was doing better in the 93 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: Civil War. So the date that it was issued is 94 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: actually um bound up with the Battle at Antietam, and 95 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: it was the success there that allowed him to issue it. 96 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: Because he had been warned by Secretary Seward back in 97 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: July that if he issued the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation at 98 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: a low moment in that conflict, it would seem like desperation, 99 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: But if he did it after a victory, it would 100 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: seem like a more confident maneuver done to give it 101 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: South a chance to return to the Union on on 102 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: the right terms, or uh, to move forward to finish 103 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: the war. Was there any chance at all that that 104 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: the rebelling states were going to rejoin the Union after 105 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: this essentially threat. No. I think this really was Lincoln, 106 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: as master politician, figuring out what it would take to 107 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: build public will. He also wanted it realized the historical 108 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: importance of the Emancipation Proclamation that in many ways it 109 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: was um fulfillment of the promise of the Declaration of Independence, 110 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: critical defining moment for the country, and I think wanted 111 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: to have the Emancipation Proclamation have the strongest possible um 112 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: foundation because he recognized its importance. So, uh, part of 113 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: this was, as you said, laying this legal groundwork for 114 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: future emancipation. So what would have happened if these states 115 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: have rejoined the Union in an effort to not have 116 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: their slaves emancipated. Well, Interestingly, in the preliminary emancipation Proclamation, 117 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: there's language around the possibility that, uh, there would be 118 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: some sort of financial remuneration for UM, the owners of 119 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: slaves if the slave states returned UM. That language does 120 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: not appear in the UM in the January eighteen sixty 121 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: three Emancipation Proclamation. And so Lincoln had a vision that, 122 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: at least in theory, that the institution of slavery could 123 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: have been on a kind of a path to disappearance, 124 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: eliminated in the territories, sort of phased out in the 125 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: UM states that had slavery in place. UM. But but 126 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: I think ultimately Lincoln understood that this was a step 127 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: that would ultimately change the nature of the war and 128 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: make the war fundamentally UM, not just about protecting the Union, 129 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: but about ending the institution of slavery. And that really 130 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: leads really well into my next question, which is, at 131 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: the start of the war, several slave states had basically 132 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: promised that they would succeed if Lincoln was elected, and 133 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: so then he was elected and they did SUCCEEDE. But 134 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: from Lincoln's point of view, the war at the beginning 135 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: was not really so much about slavery as it was 136 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: about preserving the Union, and it was like the focus 137 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: gradually became it came around to the abolition of slavery 138 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: as the war progressed. So where does the preliminary Emancipation 139 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: Proclamation fit into this arc of of moving from it 140 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: being about preserving the Union to also being about ending 141 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: the institution of slavery. You know, it's an interesting question 142 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: and one that that really the scholars of Lincoln have debated. 143 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: So there's one view that is that Lincoln always intended 144 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: to UH make progress towards the eventual abolition of slavery UM, 145 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: but was a savvy and thoughtful politician understood that the 146 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: first step was to not have slavery expand into the 147 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: into the territories UM. As the war began, saw the 148 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: opportunity UH to move towards emancipation, and pursued the preliminary 149 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: Emancipation Proclamation and the Emancipation Proclamation as UH as a 150 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: tactic to satisfy his ultimate goal of the elimination of 151 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: slavery UM. So that's one view. Another view is that 152 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: Lincoln was most focused always on preservation of the Union 153 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: and would have chosen that above all else. And you know, 154 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: there's of course the um you know, the famous language 155 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: from Lincoln where he tries to make that make the 156 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: point that he would um, preserve the Union above all else, 157 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 1: whether that was with or without the institution of slavery UM. 158 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: So one view is that that was a genuine articulation 159 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: of his view, and another view would be that it 160 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: was a political strategy UM, and that he realized he 161 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: had to build public will over time. And you know, 162 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: and some of Link's writing, you hear him talking about 163 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: the idea that public will is essential to accomplishing things 164 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: that are hard, and that you need to bring the 165 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: public along with you. So I love this idea of 166 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: the president needing to bring the public along with him 167 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: as he and the nation were gradually moving toward abolishing slavery. 168 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: But idea has been present and so so many social 169 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: changes we have talked about on the show before, Like 170 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: we've talked about some really difficult times in the United 171 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: States where a change needed to be made and it 172 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: took a while to bring the people along to be 173 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: more on board with the change. So it's really interesting 174 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: to talk about this document as one piece of a 175 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: more gradual attempt to to change the public view UH 176 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: to the idea that abolishing slavery was really something that 177 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: needed to happen. Entirely, it is it's uh, you know, 178 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: we often think about this period, I think, particularly in history, uh, 179 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: in a way where it gets taught in a very 180 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: black and white way. And I don't mean that to 181 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: be penny, but it's like this happened, and then everybody 182 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: got it, and then this happened and everybody and it's 183 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: like no, no, no, no, no. It was a slope. 184 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: Like none of these steps were immediate. They were not 185 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, like a door opening or closing. It was 186 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: all like gradual. You really had to like coax it 187 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: through its processes. So then continue the coaxing for more 188 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: than a century. Afterwards, we're going to take a brief 189 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: break for a word from a sponsor before we get 190 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 1: back to talking to Secretary King. So next up in 191 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: Tracy's talk with Secretary King, they're going to talk about 192 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: the language of the document, which is a lot more 193 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: formal and legal than the Lincoln era documents that a 194 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: lot of U. S. School kids wind up memorizing for class. 195 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: It does not at all sound like four score and 196 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: seven years ago, not not remotely. So. One of the 197 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: things that I think a lot of people remember most 198 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: about Lincoln from their just regular history classes is the 199 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 1: Getty the Gettysburg address, and that is an address that 200 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: you would probably describe as being beautifully written. It has 201 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: almost poetic, flowing language, and this document does not really 202 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: have that. It is a lot more formal and legal 203 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: in its tone. Can you talk about that difference a 204 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: little bit? Sure? Well, you know, Lincoln was a lawyer, 205 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: and he thought about this as a um as a 206 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: legal action that would need to be legally defensible, and 207 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: view the emancipation Proclamation as a exercise of presidential war power. 208 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: And so the document is in very legalistic prose and 209 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: intentionally so, and he took great care and personally authoring 210 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: the document and the version of the primary emancipation Proclamation 211 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: that UM. The New York State Library has um the 212 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: original in Lincoln's own hand even has uh cut and 213 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: pasted sections from the confiscation x UM where you can 214 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: see that he literally cut them out and pasted them. 215 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: And there's the even that spot where you can see 216 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: Lincoln's thumb print in glue um on the document UM 217 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: as he cut and pasted into it. So this was 218 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: this was for Lincoln a very careful step and it's 219 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: it's a you know, I think one of the powerful 220 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: things as a teacher UM, as you're teaching these documents 221 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: is to see the complexity of the role of historic 222 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: UM figures. You know that Lincoln was president making political judgments, 223 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: thinking about UM his legacy, thinking about the importance of 224 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,479 Speaker 1: these events in the grand sweep of history, their significance 225 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: for the country. He wanted to make sure that that 226 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: emancipation succeeded. He wanted to make sure he built public support, 227 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: that he had a strong legal position, and that he 228 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: could navigate to emancipation UH while preserving the role of 229 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: the border states that were members of the Union. This 230 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: was all very very carefully executed by by Lincoln. The 231 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: first time that I actually read this, it was a 232 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: transcript of the document because I have a very hard 233 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: time with historical handwriting, and I didn't realize until much 234 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: later that those sections of the previous Acts were literally 235 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: cut out and pasted to the document. And that quickly 236 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: became one of my favorite things about it, was that 237 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: he cut it out and pasted it on there so 238 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: it would be exactly the word for word, and then 239 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: also not have to rewrite the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, 240 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: old fashioned before me before long before the cutting and 241 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: pasting of microsoft word. Yeah. Uh, so there is there's 242 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: one copy of this document that's in the president's own handwriting. 243 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: What happened to that physical copy once he signed it? Well, 244 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: so you know. Later the document was donated to a 245 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: commission that was set up for the care of soldiers 246 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: and medical care of soldiers, and that commission then held 247 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: a auction and an abolitionist won the documented an auction. 248 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: He bought a lot of tickets in the auction and 249 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: or raffle, and then the New York State Legislature allocated 250 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: funding to buy the document from him, and that's how 251 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: it came to be in the possession of New York State, 252 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: and uh New York State this periodically shared the document 253 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: with the public. And when I was State Commissioner in 254 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: New York, I was privileged to be a part of 255 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 1: an effort where we developed an exhibit with the preliminary 256 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: mancipation proclamation and also a speech that UH doctor King 257 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: gave on the hundredth anniversary of the pluminary Mancipation Proclamation. 258 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: And we built an exhibit for kids um with the 259 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: two documents, and uh took it all around the state. 260 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: And it was during the time that the Lincoln movie 261 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: was coming out, and there was a lot of interest, 262 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 1: and we had thousands of people and um thousands of 263 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: students from schools all over the state come to see 264 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: this exhibit and come to see the document. And you 265 00:17:55,119 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: could really see people's appreciation for UM Lincoln in their 266 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: enthusiasm just just to stand in the same space as 267 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: as this document. So I don't know if this is 268 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: the case now. And I when I was studying, you know, 269 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: k through twelve American history, this was in the late eighties, 270 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: early nineteen nineties, and this whole idea that there was 271 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: a preliminary emancipation Proclamation and that there was a process 272 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: of setting legal foundations in order to abolish the institution 273 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: of slavery, that was skipped completely over. And it it 274 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: seemed more like the Emancipation Proclamation just kind of appeared 275 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: out of hull cloth and and then the slaves were free, 276 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: and that's it's that's not at all what happened. Why 277 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: do you think so much of that process is omitted 278 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: from so many history lessons about the Civil War and 279 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 1: the abolition of slavery. Well, you know, I think as 280 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: as a country, um, you know, we so celebrate Lincoln's 281 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: legacy and the notion of of Lincoln as the emancipator Um, 282 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: which is true and right, but there's also nuance behind that. 283 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things I tried to 284 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: do when I taught in high school history and also 285 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: high school Civics was to try to have students get 286 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: a sense of the complexity of UM politics throughout our history. 287 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: And it's one of the great things about the Hamilton's 288 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: musical is I think it's given a generation of Americans 289 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: a better understanding that these UM figures in history aren't 290 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: just two dimensional characters that appear in our currency. That 291 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: they're complicated people operating in complicated times, making political judgments, UH, 292 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: making very strategic decisions. And you know, from my perspective, 293 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: mace Um Abraham Lincoln even more heroic because you understand 294 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: that that that he had to have a carefully plotted 295 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: legal strategy, a carefully plotted political strategy to accomplish UM 296 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: emancipation and ultimately to win the Civil War. UM. It's 297 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: one of the nice things about some of the recent 298 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: UM books and study on UH Lyndon Johnson and the 299 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: path to the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights 300 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: Act UM. You know, these important achievements are UM the 301 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: product not of a sudden inspiration, but rather careful execution 302 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: by UM very capable politicians. And sometimes the word politician 303 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: is put in a negative light, but Abraham Lincoln was 304 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: a very, very cap upon politician. So before we get 305 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: to the end of our interview, we're going to stop 306 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: for one more brief word from a sponsor, and after 307 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 1: we hear from that sponsor, we are going to talk 308 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: about why this particular document is so personally important to 309 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: Secretary King. Okay, so let's get to the end of 310 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: the interview. Secretary King is going to talk about the 311 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: documents personal importance to him and as also how it 312 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: fits into the greater arc of progress towards racial equality 313 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: in the United States. So every person I spoke with 314 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: while arranging this interview with you talked about this document 315 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: being really important to you. So what does this document 316 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: specifically mean to you and why is why is it 317 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation in particular that has so captivated you? 318 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: You know, I think for me it said it's a 319 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: reflection of UM both the ways in which United States 320 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: has fallen short of the founding values. You know that 321 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: that that we have to acknowledge that the United States 322 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: began very much with the institution of slavery as fundamental 323 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 1: to how the country worked. And there was a real 324 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: tension between the institution of slavery and the promise of 325 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: the Declaration of Independence and and the and the notion um, 326 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: the notion that all men are created equal, and so 327 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: there was this gap, and we all as Americans need 328 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: to appreciate that complexity of our history around issues of 329 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: race uh UM. At the same time, the document also 330 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: illustrates um and something the President often talks about, the 331 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: the trajectory of America is towards greater equality, greater opportunity 332 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: over time. And so this period, the Civil War and 333 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: reconstruction are really a second birth of the United States. 334 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: You know, when you look at the thirteenth fourteen, fifteenth Amendments, 335 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: which were really products of the Civil War and reconstruction. UM, 336 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: they expanded the definition of American equality and American democracy. 337 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: And this document was very much a part of that journey. 338 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: And then the last pieces this document is also about 339 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: the complexity of government, the importance of leaders um, figuring 340 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: out how to bring the public along on things that 341 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: are hard. The importance of UM leaders having a good 342 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: political strategy, a good legal strategy UM, as well as 343 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: UH moral higher purpose. And Lincoln really combined all of 344 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 1: those things. And you see that very much in this 345 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: document and the and the eventual January Emancipation Proclamation January 346 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: ten sixty three. So is there anything else about this 347 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: document or its history that you really think that listeners 348 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: to our show should know? UM? You know, I I 349 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: the one thing I would say, it's just speaking as 350 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: a teacher. I just think there's so much power in 351 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: students engaging with primary source documents. And it's one thing 352 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: to read, you know, a textbook and what the textbook 353 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: might say, but it's another UM to delve into a 354 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: historical document and really appreciate, UM, what the author was 355 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: trying to accomplish, the choices the author made. UM. You 356 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: can imagine a powerful unit comprised of this preliminary emancipation Proclamation, 357 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: the Mancipation Proclamation of January eighteen sixty three, the Gettysburg Address, 358 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: the Second Inaugural Address, the thirteen fourteen fifteenth Amendments. You know, 359 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: just study through those powerful historical texts and it can 360 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: be a way to inspire students UM both about UM 361 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: literacy and about social studies. UH. It also can be 362 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 1: a way to help students see UM the nuances in 363 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: our history. Thank you so much for taking the time 364 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: to speak with us today. Was a pleasure to have 365 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: you on the show. Thanks it's fun to talk with you, 366 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: and thanks for what you do making sure folks are 367 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:10,959 Speaker 1: are learning about our history. Travo Tracy, thank you, and 368 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: thank you so much to Secretary King. Yes, incredibly just 369 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: that that was a pleasure of a conversation to have. 370 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to the folks of the Department 371 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: of Education who got in touch with us and helped 372 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: arrange this interview in the first place. We have photos 373 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: on our on our website where you can get a 374 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: glimpse of what this document looks like, complete with the 375 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: cut and pasted parts of other of other acts that 376 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: were pasted on there. We will also link to you 377 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: more information about it, including the full text for people 378 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: who want to read the whole thing. You got some 379 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: listener mail we can enjoy I do. I'm actually going 380 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: to read two pieces of listener mail that are short 381 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: and are related to each other, and they are along 382 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: the same theme of several things that we heard about 383 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: following our Butter Versus Margarine podcast, and the first is 384 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: from Goldie, and Goldie said, I just listened to the 385 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: Butter and Margarine Pie cast, and I have a question. 386 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: In your research, did you come across any requested or 387 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: granted exceptions to Marjarine but Marjarine bands for religious or 388 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: health reasons. I was raised in a kosher home, and 389 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,959 Speaker 1: if we didn't have Marjarine, we would have been unable 390 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: to have mashed potatoes with our meat meals, among other things. 391 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: By the way, I love your podcast. Thanks, thank you yours, Goldie. 392 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: Then the other is from Jason, and Jason says, I 393 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: really enjoyed this episode, except for the part about pink Margarine, 394 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: which seems horrendous. I'm chuckling because I know that Holly 395 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: disagrees with the idea that pink Margine is horrendous. To 396 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: return to the letter, Jason says, while I am not Jewish, 397 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: I believe there is a judaic threat to this story. 398 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: Marjarine opened a whole new chapter for kosher cooks as 399 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: it was not dairy but could be used in a 400 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: recipe as if it was a butter substitute. When not 401 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: made from animal fats, are containing milks, milk salads. Here's 402 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: some background, and then he has a link to an article. 403 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: The article is actually really fast sinating because it is 404 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: an article about one year when there was a shortage 405 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: of kosher margarine and it threatened to ruin a lot 406 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: of passover meals because there was no kosher for passover 407 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: margarine available in stores. This is so interesting. Yeah, So 408 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: number one, it did not not what GOLDI asked about, 409 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: what Jason and asked talked about. Neither of those things 410 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: came up in the research at all, in part because 411 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: a lot of the time we were talking about was 412 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: when margarine was made from beef, tallow and darry like 413 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: a little bit of milk for flavor, so that would 414 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: not have been considered kosher. It was much later in 415 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: margarine's history that like kosher margarine's did come out that 416 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: would have been appropriate for use in kosher cooking. So 417 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: I started looking into this really super interesting. Uh. The 418 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: first kosher margarine was introduced in Europe in nineteen o four, 419 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,959 Speaker 1: but for the most part, for a few years kosher 420 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: margarine's were mostly being made locally in businesses in like 421 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: towns and communities that had a large Jewish population, so 422 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: they were made in much smaller batches and not so 423 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: much available in the United States. In the United States, 424 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: the debut of margarine into kosher cooking was in nineteen 425 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: eleven with the introduction of Crisco. We don't really think 426 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: of Chrisco as margarine, or I didn't until I looked 427 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: into this. Chrisco, even though it is advertised as vegetable shortening, 428 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: is basically a greasy white margarine, although sometimes it's yellow. 429 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: Sometimes did make it yellow to look like butter. So 430 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: I guess that wouldn't make sense and it never connected 431 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: for me. And yeah, it didn't connect to me at all. Uh. 432 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: So that really changed a lot of Jewish cooks in 433 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: terms of what they could make. Um. So it's it's 434 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: that was really when, uh, when things that were more 435 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: butter like started being introduced, um into more Jewish cooking. 436 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: And it's one of those things where when I started 437 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: looking into this, a lot of people uh sort of 438 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: talked about it. It was like sort of taken for 439 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: granted that like that had always been the way that 440 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: that a kosher home worked, even though it was only 441 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen eleven. Or or after that margin was introduced 442 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: into Jewish cooking. So that's fascinating. Uh. I do not 443 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: think I started looking specifically to try to find if 444 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: there were um like religious exemptions to margarine bands. Uh. 445 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: And it seems like, at least from what I could gather, 446 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: that by that point, the law had progressed so that 447 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: at most places that were banning margarine, we're only banning 448 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: yellow margarine. So you can still get margarine, just couldn't 449 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: be yellow, So there wouldn't really have needed to be 450 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: an exemption because you could still get it, it just 451 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: wasn't yellow. So thank you to all the folks that 452 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: wrote in we got we got um I would say 453 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: four or five other emails that were about margarine in 454 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: Jewish cooking. Many of the folks I know who are 455 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: Jewish don't really keep kosher h kitchens, and it's so 456 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: it did not ever occur to me at all. Yeah 457 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: me either, you know, and I will certainly confess what 458 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: I know about kosher cooking is is very nominal. But yeah, 459 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: it never would have even crossed my mind. Yep. So 460 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: thanks thanks to all the folks who wrote us in 461 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: with that other perspective. Yeah, if you would like to 462 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: write to us. We're a history podcast at how stuff 463 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: works dot com. We're also on Facebook at Facebook dot 464 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: com slash miss in History, and our on Twitter at 465 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: miss in History. Our tumbler is missed in History dot 466 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: tumbler dot com, and we're also on Pinterest at pinterest 467 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: dot com slash missed in History, our Instagram missed in History. 468 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: It's all the things except for our email address or 469 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: missed in History. If you would like to learn more 470 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: about what we talked about today, come to our parent 471 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: company's website. It is how stuff works dot com. You'll 472 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: find lots of information about anything your heart desires. You 473 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: can also come to our website missed in History dot 474 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: com and you will find show notes for all the 475 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: episodes Tally and I have worked on. In the show notes, 476 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: we will put links about the preliminary Ima Spation Proclamation 477 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: where you can see pictures of it in the full 478 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: text and all that. Um. We also have an archive 479 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: of every episode that High and I have ever ever done. 480 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: And one more time before we go, I want to 481 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: thank Secretary King and the staff at the Department of 482 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: Education who leaned up this whole interview because it was great. 483 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: You can do all of these things and so much more. 484 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: How stuff works dot com or a misstant history dot 485 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 486 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: Does it? How stuff works dot com