1 00:01:09,389 --> 00:01:12,669 Speaker 1: Hey, dear therapist listeners, it's Lori and Guy, and we 2 00:01:12,699 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: have a quick update. 3 00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something 4 00:01:16,099 --> 00:01:18,459 Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it 5 00:01:18,499 --> 00:01:21,819 Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we 6 00:01:21,859 --> 00:01:24,789 Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we 7 00:01:24,829 --> 00:01:25,829 Speaker 2: didn't remember were there. 8 00:01:26,109 --> 00:01:28,849 Speaker 1: Therapy is like that too. There are so many learning 9 00:01:28,889 --> 00:01:31,429 Speaker 1: moments in a session and it's difficult to absorb them 10 00:01:31,489 --> 00:01:34,369 Speaker 1: all at once. So while we're not taping new episodes 11 00:01:34,449 --> 00:01:38,029 Speaker 1: right now, we are offering you our most popular sessions 12 00:01:38,129 --> 00:01:41,029 Speaker 1: as encores so that you can continue to gain value 13 00:01:41,069 --> 00:01:41,449 Speaker 1: from them. 14 00:01:41,789 --> 00:01:45,299 Speaker 2: We love doing Dear Therapists episodes, but we're each busy 15 00:01:45,339 --> 00:01:47,979 Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects and that we hope you 16 00:01:48,019 --> 00:01:49,119 Speaker 2: will love just as much. 17 00:01:49,539 --> 00:01:52,659 Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, 18 00:01:52,839 --> 00:01:55,139 Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts. 19 00:01:55,399 --> 00:01:58,149 Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called 20 00:01:58,569 --> 00:02:02,909 Speaker 2: Mind Over Grind, How to Break Free When Work Hijacks 21 00:02:02,929 --> 00:02:06,049 Speaker 2: Your Life. And it will be published by Simon & Schuster. 22 00:02:06,489 --> 00:02:09,719 Speaker 2: You can find out more about it on my website, guywench.com. 23 00:02:10,309 --> 00:02:13,469 Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile, 24 00:02:13,769 --> 00:02:16,619 Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable 25 00:02:16,649 --> 00:02:23,399 Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. I'm Lori Gottlieb. 26 00:02:23,859 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 1: I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, 27 00:02:26,319 --> 00:02:29,099 Speaker 1: and I write the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic. 28 00:02:29,599 --> 00:02:32,759 Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, 29 00:02:33,139 --> 00:02:35,259 Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED. 30 00:02:35,679 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists. This week, we're going to 31 00:02:40,119 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 2: check in on a guest from season two to hear 32 00:02:42,119 --> 00:02:43,519 Speaker 2: how they're doing a year later. 33 00:02:44,599 --> 00:02:48,099 Speaker 1: First, a quick note. Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only. 34 00:02:48,599 --> 00:02:51,719 Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is 35 00:02:51,759 --> 00:02:55,369 Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 36 00:02:55,829 --> 00:02:58,169 Speaker 1: In the sessions you'll hear, all names have been changed 37 00:02:58,229 --> 00:02:59,589 Speaker 1: for the privacy of our guests. 38 00:03:01,329 --> 00:03:03,969 Speaker 2: So today we're catching up with Melissa, and her episode 39 00:03:04,009 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 2: was called Melissa's Stifled Therapist. emotions. When we spoke to 40 00:03:07,279 --> 00:03:09,179 Speaker 2: her a year ago, she described that she would get 41 00:03:09,339 --> 00:03:13,059 Speaker 2: overwhelmed when her kids had a meltdown and got loud. 42 00:03:13,419 --> 00:03:15,629 Speaker 2: And that noise made her really shut down and be 43 00:03:15,689 --> 00:03:18,149 Speaker 2: unable to be there for her kids in the moment 44 00:03:18,289 --> 00:03:21,269 Speaker 2: to reassure them or to validate them or to help 45 00:03:21,289 --> 00:03:24,649 Speaker 2: them manage their emotions because she was so overwhelmed. She 46 00:03:24,689 --> 00:03:27,069 Speaker 2: also had a history of trauma and she wasn't making 47 00:03:27,109 --> 00:03:30,349 Speaker 2: the connection between her reaction to intense feelings and noise 48 00:03:30,769 --> 00:03:34,339 Speaker 2: and how she freezes and dissociates in the moment. We 49 00:03:34,379 --> 00:03:36,919 Speaker 2: also suggested that her husband, who she said was on 50 00:03:36,959 --> 00:03:40,049 Speaker 2: the autism spectrum, might be expressing his love for her 51 00:03:40,089 --> 00:03:42,349 Speaker 2: in ways she might be missing. And that while she 52 00:03:42,389 --> 00:03:45,389 Speaker 2: wished to be emotionally closer to him, she maintains an 53 00:03:45,429 --> 00:03:48,349 Speaker 2: emotional distance from him too. So let's get a reminder 54 00:03:48,569 --> 00:03:49,529 Speaker 2: of how that session went. 55 00:03:50,249 --> 00:03:52,949 Speaker 3: It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of 56 00:03:53,009 --> 00:03:55,369 Speaker 3: saying he loves me. Like, I have a hard time 57 00:03:55,389 --> 00:03:57,859 Speaker 3: saying I love you back. You know, I think it's 58 00:03:58,039 --> 00:04:01,319 Speaker 3: easier in hindsight, but many times it is in the moment, 59 00:04:01,419 --> 00:04:04,749 Speaker 3: but I'm frozen. or because I feel like almost a 60 00:04:04,849 --> 00:04:07,509 Speaker 3: repulsion to the child. Like, just get away from me. 61 00:04:07,569 --> 00:04:09,209 Speaker 3: Just go away. Leave me alone. 62 00:04:15,329 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 2: You're listening to Dear Therapists. We'll be back after a 63 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:19,079 Speaker 2: short break. 64 00:04:29,619 --> 00:04:31,249 Speaker 1: So let's hear what's going on with Melissa now. 65 00:04:31,859 --> 00:04:37,019 Speaker 4: Hey, Lorian. It's been a whole year and I think 66 00:04:37,059 --> 00:04:39,779 Speaker 4: I've gained a lot since the last time we had spoken. 67 00:04:41,539 --> 00:04:45,799 Speaker 4: The first thing you had me do was to notice 68 00:04:45,859 --> 00:04:49,559 Speaker 4: in my relationship with my husband, when love is coming 69 00:04:49,679 --> 00:04:52,529 Speaker 4: towards me, to be aware of it and to notice it. 70 00:04:53,509 --> 00:04:57,429 Speaker 4: And I think I've been much more aware of the 71 00:04:57,489 --> 00:05:00,389 Speaker 4: things that he does and I translate them as love. 72 00:05:01,559 --> 00:05:04,059 Speaker 4: And even if he doesn't say the right words with it, 73 00:05:04,259 --> 00:05:06,509 Speaker 4: and even if he doesn't do the eye contact and 74 00:05:06,529 --> 00:05:11,229 Speaker 4: the things that I really want, I recognize it as love. 75 00:05:12,289 --> 00:05:15,409 Speaker 4: And I also noticed that I do that with connection. 76 00:05:15,429 --> 00:05:19,769 Speaker 4: The truth is, I think I wasn't aware that people 77 00:05:20,329 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 4: are connecting with me and I just haven't been noticing that. 78 00:05:24,539 --> 00:05:29,059 Speaker 4: Definitely added to my life. This past year, my father 79 00:05:29,099 --> 00:05:34,129 Speaker 4: died suddenly. And I think I had to just reevaluate 80 00:05:34,759 --> 00:05:39,289 Speaker 4: the love that he had for me. He had Asperger's and, 81 00:05:39,489 --> 00:05:43,369 Speaker 4: you know, just like my husband, he's more limited on 82 00:05:43,689 --> 00:05:47,229 Speaker 4: what he can say and express. And yeah, it's definitely 83 00:05:47,269 --> 00:05:50,389 Speaker 4: been a year with relationship to my children who had 84 00:05:51,029 --> 00:05:53,969 Speaker 4: asked me to not try comfort them in the moment 85 00:05:54,049 --> 00:05:57,269 Speaker 4: because it was too overwhelming to kind of come back 86 00:05:57,309 --> 00:06:00,369 Speaker 4: to them when they calm down and talk about their feelings. 87 00:06:01,229 --> 00:06:05,269 Speaker 4: And I've honestly really, really, really struggled with it. Not 88 00:06:05,329 --> 00:06:07,609 Speaker 4: because I don't want to do there for them, just 89 00:06:07,689 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 4: because it's extremely overwhelming. It's highly triggering for me. I 90 00:06:14,299 --> 00:06:18,439 Speaker 4: realized because I have so many repressed emotions myself, like 91 00:06:18,679 --> 00:06:21,999 Speaker 4: anger that I was never allowed to show. And when 92 00:06:22,019 --> 00:06:28,499 Speaker 4: they show it, it's alarming, overwhelming, feels wrong. So I 93 00:06:28,559 --> 00:06:34,079 Speaker 4: still struggle a lot. emotionally validating my children. I have 94 00:06:34,099 --> 00:06:39,399 Speaker 4: been seeing a therapist regularly. Pretty intense work we're doing 95 00:06:39,419 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 4: for almost a year now. We're healing my attachment trauma 96 00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:51,349 Speaker 4: and learning my patterns, my avoidance. I feel it's allowing 97 00:06:51,389 --> 00:06:54,169 Speaker 4: me to be more emotionally present to myself. I think 98 00:06:54,449 --> 00:06:57,709 Speaker 4: that is key. Being able to feel my emotions because 99 00:06:57,909 --> 00:07:00,959 Speaker 4: I Didn't allow myself to do so for so long. 100 00:07:00,999 --> 00:07:05,249 Speaker 4: It wasn't safe. So I've gained a tremendous amount of awareness. 101 00:07:05,449 --> 00:07:09,569 Speaker 4: I've done a bunch of healing modalities, a lot of 102 00:07:09,709 --> 00:07:16,729 Speaker 4: mindfulness courses, healing retreats. I've even dabbled in psychedelics. I 103 00:07:16,749 --> 00:07:20,809 Speaker 4: tried ayahuasca to help me get clarity. But I think 104 00:07:21,109 --> 00:07:23,449 Speaker 4: the answer really lies in me. 105 00:07:23,469 --> 00:07:24,129 Speaker 1: Yeah. 106 00:07:24,659 --> 00:07:27,339 Speaker 4: I'm working on things, and I wanted to thank you 107 00:07:27,359 --> 00:07:31,719 Speaker 4: so much for your guidance. I still reflect upon it often, 108 00:07:32,409 --> 00:07:34,509 Speaker 4: and I hope to continue working on things. 109 00:07:38,809 --> 00:07:41,529 Speaker 1: First of all, our condolences to Melissa on the death 110 00:07:41,569 --> 00:07:44,129 Speaker 1: of her father. It sounds like it's been a really 111 00:07:44,209 --> 00:07:47,879 Speaker 1: challenging time for her. And at the same time, it 112 00:07:47,899 --> 00:07:51,399 Speaker 1: sounds like it's been a really healing time for her. 113 00:07:51,419 --> 00:07:57,319 Speaker 1: I love how she... is very aware of this lack 114 00:07:57,329 --> 00:08:00,859 Speaker 1: of connection that she has been feeling and her own 115 00:08:01,339 --> 00:08:06,659 Speaker 1: role in that in terms of her inability to take 116 00:08:06,799 --> 00:08:10,659 Speaker 1: in the connection and her own fears of getting close 117 00:08:10,679 --> 00:08:16,049 Speaker 1: to people rooted in that trauma that she experienced growing up. 118 00:08:17,729 --> 00:08:20,509 Speaker 1: And I think when she talks about the difficulty that 119 00:08:20,529 --> 00:08:23,819 Speaker 1: she's still having with her children and It's very hard 120 00:08:23,859 --> 00:08:27,569 Speaker 1: for people who have had significant trauma like Melissa has 121 00:08:28,049 --> 00:08:32,809 Speaker 1: to self-regulate. And you need to regulate yourself before you 122 00:08:32,849 --> 00:08:37,779 Speaker 1: can be there to help your children self-regulate. And so 123 00:08:38,079 --> 00:08:40,299 Speaker 1: it's still hard for her to be emotionally present with them. 124 00:08:40,459 --> 00:08:46,009 Speaker 1: And I remember her relationship with anger was that When 125 00:08:46,029 --> 00:08:48,249 Speaker 1: she was growing up, she was not only unable to 126 00:08:48,309 --> 00:08:52,429 Speaker 1: express anger, but her parents would have these extreme reactions 127 00:08:52,489 --> 00:08:56,069 Speaker 1: where they would grab her from behind and yell at her. 128 00:08:56,309 --> 00:09:00,789 Speaker 1: And it was so frightening. So I can see why 129 00:09:00,809 --> 00:09:04,399 Speaker 1: those big feelings, those intense feelings that other people have 130 00:09:04,699 --> 00:09:07,779 Speaker 1: are very triggering for her still. But it's great that 131 00:09:07,819 --> 00:09:10,119 Speaker 1: she's working on all this in therapy and is becoming 132 00:09:10,199 --> 00:09:11,879 Speaker 1: really aware of those connections now. 133 00:09:12,369 --> 00:09:12,709 Speaker 4: I agree. 134 00:09:12,789 --> 00:09:16,229 Speaker 2: And this is what it looks like when somebody is really, 135 00:09:16,529 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 2: really working on themselves. And that's the impression I had 136 00:09:19,239 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 2: a year ago. And that's the impression I still have today. 137 00:09:21,919 --> 00:09:25,519 Speaker 2: This is a woman who is determined to work on 138 00:09:25,579 --> 00:09:29,259 Speaker 2: herself and to improve. She's really willing to try so 139 00:09:29,379 --> 00:09:32,939 Speaker 2: many things, the healing retreats, the psychedelics, so many different 140 00:09:32,979 --> 00:09:36,879 Speaker 2: approaches to try and get herself to grow. And I 141 00:09:36,979 --> 00:09:39,819 Speaker 2: really applaud that. And I applaud her motivation. It's the 142 00:09:39,839 --> 00:09:44,049 Speaker 2: thing that comes across so strongly. from her. The one 143 00:09:44,069 --> 00:09:47,789 Speaker 2: thing that she's really struggling with still is being there 144 00:09:47,949 --> 00:09:52,229 Speaker 2: for her kids when they are loud and emotional. It 145 00:09:52,669 --> 00:09:56,489 Speaker 2: still dysregulates her, it triggers her, it floods her, and 146 00:09:56,929 --> 00:09:59,769 Speaker 2: she has a very hard time being there for them. 147 00:10:00,549 --> 00:10:03,529 Speaker 2: One thing I would like to suggest, Melissa, if you're listening, 148 00:10:03,789 --> 00:10:07,299 Speaker 2: is to do it in stages. Perhaps one thing you 149 00:10:07,339 --> 00:10:10,519 Speaker 2: can do once you're calm is to tape a voice 150 00:10:10,579 --> 00:10:13,809 Speaker 2: message to your kids about what you would have said 151 00:10:13,829 --> 00:10:17,799 Speaker 2: in that moment, and then you can play that for them. 152 00:10:17,959 --> 00:10:20,359 Speaker 2: And that might be easier for you. And when that 153 00:10:20,419 --> 00:10:23,619 Speaker 2: gets more comfortable, then you might want to consider doing 154 00:10:23,639 --> 00:10:26,799 Speaker 2: that face-to-face or maybe even doing it in writing and 155 00:10:26,839 --> 00:10:28,759 Speaker 2: reading it to them, but doing it in a way 156 00:10:28,859 --> 00:10:33,349 Speaker 2: that you can slowly manage the big emotions and the 157 00:10:33,489 --> 00:10:36,729 Speaker 2: triggering and the flooding that happens to you in that moment, 158 00:10:36,909 --> 00:10:39,919 Speaker 2: but still try to be there for them, even if 159 00:10:39,979 --> 00:10:42,119 Speaker 2: it's in a delay, even if it's in a voice message. 160 00:10:42,539 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea, Guy. And I'm also 161 00:10:44,819 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: thinking about how it's very confusing for kids when their 162 00:10:48,219 --> 00:10:53,109 Speaker 1: parents can't respond to their feelings. And sometimes transparency helps 163 00:10:53,169 --> 00:10:59,489 Speaker 1: them to feel less alone in their feelings. So when 164 00:10:59,649 --> 00:11:03,109 Speaker 1: Melissa was talking about working on her feelings in therapy, 165 00:11:03,389 --> 00:11:05,729 Speaker 1: I think what she's really talking about is making friends 166 00:11:05,789 --> 00:11:08,599 Speaker 1: with her feelings. that she has always thought that feelings 167 00:11:08,649 --> 00:11:10,799 Speaker 1: are the enemy because when she was growing up when 168 00:11:10,819 --> 00:11:14,899 Speaker 1: there were big feelings it led to abuse and she 169 00:11:14,939 --> 00:11:19,239 Speaker 1: gets very very triggered immediately by that and I wonder 170 00:11:19,279 --> 00:11:21,109 Speaker 1: when the kids are you know the ones who are 171 00:11:21,189 --> 00:11:23,849 Speaker 1: old enough if she could say to them you know 172 00:11:24,169 --> 00:11:28,249 Speaker 1: I'm really working on what I do when I have 173 00:11:28,289 --> 00:11:31,089 Speaker 1: big feelings and And when you have big feelings, sometimes 174 00:11:31,109 --> 00:11:33,789 Speaker 1: I have big feelings too. And sometimes I need to 175 00:11:33,829 --> 00:11:36,219 Speaker 1: take a minute and take some breaths. And I wonder 176 00:11:36,279 --> 00:11:38,459 Speaker 1: if that's something we can do together. Maybe we can 177 00:11:38,499 --> 00:11:42,119 Speaker 1: all take some breaths together. Just so that they know, hey, 178 00:11:42,339 --> 00:11:44,799 Speaker 1: mom's having some big feelings too, but she's working on that. 179 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,519 Speaker 1: She knows that there's something she can do with that. 180 00:11:47,819 --> 00:11:49,659 Speaker 2: I love that. And I think it's such an important 181 00:11:49,759 --> 00:11:52,499 Speaker 2: message because if she can share with her kids the 182 00:11:52,549 --> 00:11:55,529 Speaker 2: fact that, yes, I struggle with these things and I'm 183 00:11:55,629 --> 00:11:59,009 Speaker 2: working on myself. In order to get better at them. 184 00:11:59,289 --> 00:12:02,109 Speaker 2: And this is true for life, kids. When you struggle 185 00:12:02,139 --> 00:12:05,919 Speaker 2: with certain things and you identify that, then you also 186 00:12:05,979 --> 00:12:08,759 Speaker 2: can start working to improve those things. I think it's 187 00:12:08,879 --> 00:12:09,939 Speaker 2: such a great message. 188 00:12:10,439 --> 00:12:13,089 Speaker 1: And the message that they get when she does this 189 00:12:13,309 --> 00:12:17,229 Speaker 1: is feelings are okay. All feelings are okay. How we 190 00:12:17,309 --> 00:12:20,599 Speaker 1: manage them. is what we need to work on. So 191 00:12:20,819 --> 00:12:23,059 Speaker 1: you can be angry. How do we talk about that? 192 00:12:23,119 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 1: You can feel sad. How do we talk about that? 193 00:12:25,279 --> 00:12:27,639 Speaker 1: You can feel anxious. How do we talk about that? 194 00:12:27,919 --> 00:12:31,379 Speaker 1: So all the feelings are okay. But as I'm learning 195 00:12:31,479 --> 00:12:33,809 Speaker 1: how to deal with my feelings, I want to help 196 00:12:33,909 --> 00:12:36,569 Speaker 1: you learn how to do that too. This is something 197 00:12:36,599 --> 00:12:37,929 Speaker 1: that we all need to learn how to do in 198 00:12:37,969 --> 00:12:40,709 Speaker 1: life is we're all going to have feelings. And then 199 00:12:40,749 --> 00:12:41,469 Speaker 1: what do we do with that? 200 00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:44,809 Speaker 2: And for Melissa specifically and her husband and her kids, 201 00:12:45,439 --> 00:12:47,599 Speaker 2: if that is a discussion they can have as a 202 00:12:47,639 --> 00:12:50,379 Speaker 2: family and a project that they can have as a family, 203 00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 2: that would be amazing because it's something I think they 204 00:12:54,219 --> 00:13:01,479 Speaker 2: would all benefit from. Next week, a woman with a 205 00:13:01,539 --> 00:13:04,429 Speaker 2: difficult mother wonders if there's a way to interact with 206 00:13:04,479 --> 00:13:06,369 Speaker 2: her that won't cause so much pain. 207 00:13:06,909 --> 00:13:10,069 Speaker 4: She was saying that she'd always tried to be a 208 00:13:10,089 --> 00:13:13,589 Speaker 4: good mother. I felt very poked. She kept poking at 209 00:13:13,649 --> 00:13:18,809 Speaker 4: it and she would talk quite defensively about why she 210 00:13:18,849 --> 00:13:22,249 Speaker 4: couldn't have done better, what was going on for her. 211 00:13:22,209 --> 00:13:25,589 Speaker 1: At the time. If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget 212 00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:28,419 Speaker 1: to subscribe for free so that you don't miss any episodes. 213 00:13:28,859 --> 00:13:31,659 Speaker 1: And please help support Dear Therapist by telling your friends 214 00:13:31,719 --> 00:13:34,759 Speaker 1: about it and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your 215 00:13:34,799 --> 00:13:36,799 Speaker 1: reviews really help people to find the show. 216 00:13:37,519 --> 00:13:39,619 Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, 217 00:13:40,079 --> 00:13:46,849 Speaker 2: email us at laurieandguy at iheartmedia.com. Our executive producer is 218 00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:51,449 Speaker 2: Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional 219 00:13:51,529 --> 00:13:56,109 Speaker 2: editing support by Helena Rosen, John Washington, and Zachary Fisher. 220 00:13:56,589 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 2: Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gutierrez, and Silver Lifton. 221 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:05,379 Speaker 2: And special thanks to our podcast fairy godmother, Katie Couric. 222 00:14:05,819 --> 00:14:07,899 Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at our next session. 223 00:14:08,659 --> 00:14:11,299 Speaker 2: Dear Therapists is a production of iHeartRadio.