WEBVTT - On Background: Crypto Skeptic Proven Right 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:23.476 Pushkin. If you spend any time reporting on the world 0:00:23.476 --> 0:00:25.956 of cryptocurrency in bitcoin, then you're going to run across 0:00:25.996 --> 0:00:29.556 the name Molly White. She's a software engineer who has 0:00:29.556 --> 0:00:31.836 this website with fonts that looked like a dot Matrix 0:00:31.836 --> 0:00:34.876 printer made them in nineteen ninety seven. The site has 0:00:34.876 --> 0:00:38.956 a sarcastic title that I just love. Quote web three 0:00:39.076 --> 0:00:42.556 is going just great and is definitely not an enormous 0:00:42.636 --> 0:00:46.276 grift that's pouring lighter fluid on our already smoldering planet. 0:00:46.876 --> 0:00:50.356 End quote. All of that is her title. When I 0:00:50.396 --> 0:00:52.636 read that, though, I knew that for my next book, 0:00:52.756 --> 0:00:58.236 I needed to get Molly White on the phone. This 0:00:58.396 --> 0:01:05.516 is on background from Against the Rules. I'm Michael Lewis. 0:01:11.316 --> 0:01:14.276 Crypto has always had skeptics and critics, but Molly White 0:01:14.316 --> 0:01:17.676 is a researcher who really knows her stuff. She's consulted 0:01:17.756 --> 0:01:20.876 on federal legislation to regulate the industry, and she's an 0:01:20.876 --> 0:01:24.836 activist in small ways, such as persuading the Wikimedia Foundation 0:01:24.996 --> 0:01:29.556 to stop collecting donations via cryptocurrency. All that, plus her 0:01:29.596 --> 0:01:32.516 outspokenness online has put her in the line of fire. 0:01:33.036 --> 0:01:36.956 And we'll get to that. Welcome Mollie. So all of 0:01:36.956 --> 0:01:40.556 this is in service of this book I'm writing about 0:01:40.596 --> 0:01:43.876 FTX and Sam Bankman Freed. And I assume you kind 0:01:43.916 --> 0:01:46.156 of followed the media coverage a bit because you're interested 0:01:46.156 --> 0:01:48.716 in the space. What do you make of the public 0:01:48.796 --> 0:01:49.876 response to it all? 0:01:51.916 --> 0:01:55.116 I got very frustrated at one point, not too long ago, 0:01:55.156 --> 0:01:57.356 that a lot of the story seemed to be that 0:01:57.396 --> 0:01:59.676 Sam Bankman Freed was just a kid who got in 0:01:59.756 --> 0:02:04.356 over his head. That was a very prevailing narrative, which 0:02:04.396 --> 0:02:06.676 was really irritating to me as someone who is about 0:02:06.716 --> 0:02:09.356 the same age as Sam Bankman Freed and who you know, 0:02:09.396 --> 0:02:13.076 has a head on my shoulders. But you know, I 0:02:13.156 --> 0:02:16.996 have been happy to see that ftx's collapse did seem 0:02:17.076 --> 0:02:21.316 to precipitate a fair bit of skepticism in the crypto 0:02:21.476 --> 0:02:24.956 industry that maybe hadn't been there before. You know, there 0:02:24.996 --> 0:02:28.676 had been a series of collapses in crypto since you know, 0:02:28.756 --> 0:02:30.996 the spring of twenty twenty two, but they were not 0:02:31.316 --> 0:02:35.396 as significant in size as ftx's collapse. And so I 0:02:35.476 --> 0:02:39.116 think that ftx's collapse really helped to drive home some 0:02:39.196 --> 0:02:42.956 of the skeptical narratives that were beginning to emerge in 0:02:43.036 --> 0:02:45.036 the media in the. 0:02:45.076 --> 0:02:48.316 Very beginning, when bitcoin is created in what two thousand 0:02:48.396 --> 0:02:50.316 and eight, Maybe I can't remember. 0:02:50.036 --> 0:02:51.836 That, Yeah, two thousand and eight or two thousand and nine, 0:02:51.876 --> 0:02:54.316 depending on how you define created. 0:02:54.116 --> 0:02:57.636 And so so you encounter it, you get a sense 0:02:57.676 --> 0:03:01.716 of what it is. Most people who went through that 0:03:01.756 --> 0:03:06.356 process either became bitcoin fans, or like me, looked at 0:03:06.396 --> 0:03:09.436 it and said, I'm having no emotional reaction to this 0:03:09.476 --> 0:03:12.756 at all. You had an emotional reaction to it, like 0:03:12.796 --> 0:03:14.236 you start to get bothered by it. 0:03:14.676 --> 0:03:17.396 Well, that came a lot later after I originally learned 0:03:17.396 --> 0:03:21.076 about bitcoin. I would say, first, my first reaction was 0:03:21.196 --> 0:03:24.156 largely disinterested, because I wasn't trying to buy drugs on 0:03:24.196 --> 0:03:28.596 the Silk Road, and I wasn't interested in all of 0:03:28.596 --> 0:03:31.996 the sort of mad financial speculation because I didn't have 0:03:32.076 --> 0:03:33.876 altogether that much money that I was going to be 0:03:33.876 --> 0:03:37.076 able to put into something like that, and so I thought, Okay, 0:03:37.116 --> 0:03:38.956 that's cool. I hope they have fun over there, and 0:03:38.996 --> 0:03:40.956 then I went on and did my own thing until 0:03:41.236 --> 0:03:43.476 twenty twenty one or so, when it turned into something 0:03:43.556 --> 0:03:48.676 very different that was, you know, being marketed to every 0:03:48.716 --> 0:03:51.756 person who watched a football game or you know, read. 0:03:51.596 --> 0:03:54.276 The news and what bothered you about that? 0:03:55.596 --> 0:03:58.836 Well, I was annoyed at how it was being presented 0:03:58.876 --> 0:04:03.716 to people. The coverage, especially in late twenty twenty one, 0:04:03.916 --> 0:04:07.876 was enormously positive. It was all about, look at this 0:04:07.996 --> 0:04:10.916 person who at least a set of NFTs and now 0:04:10.956 --> 0:04:13.276 they can, you know, work as an artist like they 0:04:13.316 --> 0:04:16.076 always dreamed instead of having to have three jobs, you know. 0:04:16.276 --> 0:04:18.756 Or look at this person who made some wild bet 0:04:18.836 --> 0:04:21.676 on this you know, token that you've never heard of, 0:04:21.756 --> 0:04:24.396 and it went up ten thousand percent and now they 0:04:24.476 --> 0:04:27.236 are driving Lamborghinis. It was a lot of stuff like that, 0:04:27.516 --> 0:04:30.876 and it was a lot of reprinting of press releases 0:04:31.356 --> 0:04:34.236 from crypto companies who are promising that this was not 0:04:34.356 --> 0:04:36.876 only some way to get wealthy, but it was the 0:04:36.916 --> 0:04:41.556 future of technology and the web and society. And while 0:04:41.596 --> 0:04:45.076 we were seeing that, we were also seeing actual real 0:04:45.156 --> 0:04:48.236 life evidence of people who were getting taken for a 0:04:48.356 --> 0:04:52.156 ride by these same technologies. But it was not getting 0:04:52.156 --> 0:04:55.476 the kind of attention that you know, the feel good 0:04:55.556 --> 0:04:57.756 stories were getting, and so I felt like people were 0:04:57.796 --> 0:05:00.956 broadly being told that you should go invest in this, 0:05:01.236 --> 0:05:04.316 you should put your money into it, money that you 0:05:04.436 --> 0:05:08.636 cannot necessarily afford. To lose, which did not seem right 0:05:08.716 --> 0:05:10.916 to me understandably. 0:05:11.436 --> 0:05:13.836 So what do you do then, Like, when do you 0:05:13.876 --> 0:05:15.756 set yourself up as a bitcoin critic? 0:05:17.356 --> 0:05:21.916 Well, so I've been a Wikipedia editor since I was 0:05:22.236 --> 0:05:23.636 like thirteen years old. 0:05:23.836 --> 0:05:28.116 All right, stop, how does that happen? How at the 0:05:28.156 --> 0:05:30.996 age of thirteen are you editing Wikipedia articles? 0:05:30.996 --> 0:05:34.036 Well, it's the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and I 0:05:34.116 --> 0:05:36.236 discovered that at about the age of thirteen. 0:05:36.836 --> 0:05:39.156 But little kids are supposed to be using the cyclopedia, 0:05:39.316 --> 0:05:41.476 not writing it. Well, but I saw that you could, 0:05:42.916 --> 0:05:47.956 and I was what's the first Wikipedia article you edited 0:05:48.156 --> 0:05:49.036 at age thirteen? 0:05:50.596 --> 0:05:53.956 I am pretty sure it was the article on unicycles, 0:05:54.356 --> 0:05:57.956 because at the time I was very interested in unicycles. 0:05:58.236 --> 0:06:02.116 I am kind of a person who attracts weird hobbies. 0:06:01.676 --> 0:06:04.596 I would say, So, you were interested in unicycles and 0:06:04.636 --> 0:06:08.076 you edited the article an article on Wikipedia, and it's stuck, right, 0:06:08.116 --> 0:06:10.676 you were able to do and actually function is an editor. 0:06:10.836 --> 0:06:12.796 Yeah, it's stuck for a while. I think it wasn't 0:06:12.796 --> 0:06:15.236 a very good edit by any stretch. But you know, 0:06:15.316 --> 0:06:18.476 there weren't all as many people sort of helping with 0:06:18.596 --> 0:06:21.876 quality control back then. You know, I started at thirteen, 0:06:21.996 --> 0:06:24.636 I sort of dabbled in it for a while, and 0:06:24.676 --> 0:06:26.876 then I became very active in it when I was 0:06:26.956 --> 0:06:30.316 in high school and have been basically ever since. And 0:06:30.356 --> 0:06:33.156 it's something I really care a lot about, and so 0:06:33.356 --> 0:06:36.796 my first instinct when I see something that I think 0:06:36.876 --> 0:06:39.036 is not being covered well is to go write the 0:06:39.076 --> 0:06:42.236 Wikipedia article about it. And so the first thing I 0:06:42.276 --> 0:06:44.916 did was I wrote the Wikipedia article about the cryptocurrency 0:06:44.956 --> 0:06:47.956 blockchain web three, because at the time, it didn't really exist, 0:06:48.516 --> 0:06:51.116 and so I started researching it, and I realized that 0:06:51.836 --> 0:06:55.436 what it was describing itself as was very different from 0:06:55.476 --> 0:06:59.116 what it actually was in reality, and it seemed to 0:06:59.196 --> 0:07:03.076 me to be being used as a cover for all 0:07:03.116 --> 0:07:07.436 of this sort of fraud and scams and if nothing else, 0:07:07.516 --> 0:07:11.276 you know, major financial speculation that was very dependent on 0:07:12.476 --> 0:07:15.796 the average person believing the story that was being told. 0:07:15.956 --> 0:07:18.916 And so that was when I became really skeptical. Then 0:07:18.956 --> 0:07:21.876 from there I started my website, which is web three 0:07:21.916 --> 0:07:24.836 is going just great, because I realized that what I 0:07:24.876 --> 0:07:27.716 wanted to highlight was all of these projects that were 0:07:27.916 --> 0:07:31.756 failing and scamming people or falling apart and people were 0:07:31.756 --> 0:07:34.956 losing money, and Wikipedia just wasn't the place for that, 0:07:35.356 --> 0:07:37.916 and that was when I really started to also research 0:07:38.076 --> 0:07:43.116 the sort of technology, the ways that both financial systems 0:07:43.116 --> 0:07:46.396 are working as well as the technological systems, and that's 0:07:46.436 --> 0:07:50.716 when I became even more critical and skeptical of cryptocurrencies 0:07:50.716 --> 0:07:52.276 in general, including bitcoin. 0:07:52.716 --> 0:07:54.156 Did you receive any blowback? 0:07:57.116 --> 0:08:00.516 Not initially, I think, because not that many people noticed 0:08:00.516 --> 0:08:03.676 what I was saying initially. But when I started the 0:08:03.716 --> 0:08:06.596 website and the website started to gain traction, I think 0:08:06.676 --> 0:08:09.396 people began at that point to sort of push back 0:08:09.436 --> 0:08:12.116 on what I was doing because, you know, to some extent, 0:08:12.156 --> 0:08:14.396 I think they saw it as a threat to their 0:08:15.276 --> 0:08:16.916 ideology to some extent. 0:08:16.916 --> 0:08:20.356 Absolutely, And I'm wondering what kind of responses you've gotten 0:08:20.956 --> 0:08:22.476 from from the religion. 0:08:24.156 --> 0:08:27.156 It's run the gamut to some extent. So a lot 0:08:27.196 --> 0:08:28.956 of it is you don't know what you're talking about, 0:08:29.356 --> 0:08:33.996 you don't understand the technology. Is very common. I get 0:08:33.996 --> 0:08:36.556 some people who are somewhat accepting of the stuff that 0:08:36.596 --> 0:08:38.996 I do, and they see it as a useful service 0:08:39.036 --> 0:08:42.036 as far as improving the technology, which I think is 0:08:42.036 --> 0:08:45.156 a very reasonable way to respond to criticism. I think 0:08:45.396 --> 0:08:50.396 technology criticism is critical for technology development. And then I 0:08:50.476 --> 0:08:54.156 often get a lot of very hostile responses, especially from 0:08:54.156 --> 0:08:59.076 the bitcoiners that are extremely sort of ideological, and they 0:08:59.116 --> 0:09:00.276 can be very aggressive. 0:09:00.556 --> 0:09:03.836 This is just an aside, But are those responses typically 0:09:03.836 --> 0:09:04.516 coming from men? 0:09:05.956 --> 0:09:08.276 Uh? Yeah, pretty much experience. 0:09:07.996 --> 0:09:09.796 Yeah, no, it is. I mean, it really is a 0:09:09.796 --> 0:09:12.996 male driven phenomenon, right, I mean that there are a 0:09:13.036 --> 0:09:15.716 lot of crypto bros. But there aren't a lot of 0:09:15.756 --> 0:09:16.516 crypto women. 0:09:17.236 --> 0:09:20.556 Yeah. I run into them. They don't tend to be 0:09:20.596 --> 0:09:25.036 into bitcoin specifically. They're often in other parts of the ecosystem, 0:09:25.396 --> 0:09:28.596 and they don't tend to be quite as aggressive or 0:09:29.916 --> 0:09:32.236 cruel as as the men are. 0:09:33.316 --> 0:09:36.396 So back to like you getting your mind around bitcoin 0:09:36.596 --> 0:09:39.996 and starting to criticize it, I wonder if you had 0:09:40.036 --> 0:09:42.436 the experience I've had where I mean I had people 0:09:42.516 --> 0:09:46.116 trying to get me to essentially endorse it, promote it 0:09:46.196 --> 0:09:50.436 all the rest from about I don't know twenty twelve, 0:09:51.676 --> 0:09:53.956 where people would say, coming, we're going to teach you 0:09:53.956 --> 0:09:56.316 about bitcoin, and each time they kind of had a 0:09:56.316 --> 0:10:00.436 different story about not what crypto was, but what its 0:10:00.516 --> 0:10:03.716 purpose was, like, what problem it would be solving, what 0:10:03.756 --> 0:10:07.676 its place in the world was. It kept changing. It 0:10:08.676 --> 0:10:11.556 was like a solution in search of a problem, and 0:10:12.236 --> 0:10:13.596 you never found the problem. 0:10:13.716 --> 0:10:16.916 That's all crypto is really is the narrative. And as 0:10:16.956 --> 0:10:19.436 long as they can find a narrative that is sufficiently 0:10:19.516 --> 0:10:22.516 compelling at any given point, then they can keep prices up. 0:10:22.996 --> 0:10:26.116 But it never actually fulfills those narratives, and so the 0:10:26.196 --> 0:10:28.156 narrative has to constantly shift. 0:10:29.876 --> 0:10:32.036 Hold that thought, and when we get back from the break, 0:10:32.196 --> 0:10:35.116 we'll hear about the many narratives of bitcoin over the years, 0:10:50.556 --> 0:10:52.876 and back with blogger Molly White as we go through 0:10:52.916 --> 0:10:56.036 all the promises bitcoin enthusiasts have made over the years. 0:11:00.716 --> 0:11:02.996 You know, the idea is that bitcoin was going to 0:11:03.036 --> 0:11:05.836 become the world's currency, was really popular at one point, 0:11:05.876 --> 0:11:08.356 and then people realize that, oh, it doesn't function as 0:11:08.716 --> 0:11:11.476 well as currency at all, and that's never going to work. 0:11:11.676 --> 0:11:14.556 And why not just explain why it doesn't work well 0:11:14.596 --> 0:11:15.156 as a currency. 0:11:15.156 --> 0:11:18.436 Well, when you have an extremely volatile asset, people don't 0:11:18.436 --> 0:11:21.116 want to just trade it around for you know, their 0:11:21.156 --> 0:11:23.796 rent or a hamburger. They want to hold on to 0:11:23.956 --> 0:11:25.556 it and hope that it goes up, or they want 0:11:25.636 --> 0:11:27.236 nothing to do with it because they're worried they're going 0:11:27.276 --> 0:11:29.796 to lose money. And so you know, in order for 0:11:29.876 --> 0:11:31.956 something to function as a currency, it needs to be 0:11:32.036 --> 0:11:37.476 relatively stable, which is absolutely not Bitcoin or the other cryptocurrencies, 0:11:37.836 --> 0:11:41.276 aside from the dedicated stable coins, which often are also 0:11:41.556 --> 0:11:42.116 not stable. 0:11:42.596 --> 0:11:45.476 But there's also a problem with its ability to just 0:11:45.596 --> 0:11:49.556 process transactions. If we're made to use bitcoin for all 0:11:49.596 --> 0:11:52.516 of our financial transactions, how long would it take to, 0:11:52.556 --> 0:11:53.436 like buy hamburger. 0:11:54.196 --> 0:11:57.196 Yeah, it does have issues as far as the speed 0:11:57.236 --> 0:12:00.436 of the network, and there are a lot of sort 0:12:00.436 --> 0:12:03.356 of proposed fixes to that. You know, they're trying to 0:12:03.356 --> 0:12:05.836 sort of band aid on top of the problem that 0:12:05.836 --> 0:12:09.876 Bitcoin is a very slow network, but the the fixes 0:12:09.996 --> 0:12:12.476 often introduce even more problems of their own. 0:12:12.956 --> 0:12:14.996 Right now, I can remember that was the first pitch, 0:12:15.036 --> 0:12:17.516 the twenty twelve pitch I got was it's going to 0:12:17.516 --> 0:12:20.556 be the world's currency. Like you can't trust central banks 0:12:20.636 --> 0:12:24.396 and you know they're always going to lean towards inflation, 0:12:24.476 --> 0:12:25.956 that the dollar in your pocket's not going to be 0:12:25.956 --> 0:12:28.156 worth as much tomorrow as it is today. And bitcoin 0:12:28.236 --> 0:12:32.756 doesn't have that problem. It's inherently deflationary, and that was 0:12:32.796 --> 0:12:35.876 going to cause people to want to use it as 0:12:35.916 --> 0:12:39.276 a means of exchange. Tell you a funny story. The 0:12:39.316 --> 0:12:41.356 first call I got, I was so intrigued. They said, 0:12:41.356 --> 0:12:45.756 come down to Palo Alto and there's some crypto entrepreneurs here, 0:12:45.796 --> 0:12:47.756 and they were actually some people end up being pretty 0:12:47.796 --> 0:12:50.316 prominent in the movement. Many of them went on to 0:12:50.356 --> 0:12:52.756 be very rich. And they say, come down, we're going 0:12:52.796 --> 0:12:55.116 to introduce you to Satoshi. And that was like, really, 0:12:55.236 --> 0:12:58.076 are going to get to meet Satoshi. Satoshi wasn't there, 0:12:58.516 --> 0:12:59.876 but they were trying to explain to me yet. 0:12:59.916 --> 0:13:01.356 I mean, maybe he was, maybe he was. 0:13:01.396 --> 0:13:04.196 Maybe he was right. And when I got out of 0:13:04.236 --> 0:13:07.476 the car in Palo Alto, I parked about a block 0:13:07.516 --> 0:13:09.516 from the house they told me to go to I 0:13:09.556 --> 0:13:12.636 could smell the weed from a block away, and I 0:13:12.676 --> 0:13:14.636 got there. They're all smoking dope. They're all talking about 0:13:14.676 --> 0:13:17.036 how this is the future. And I said, like, I mean, 0:13:17.116 --> 0:13:19.476 I can't use to buy anything, and they said, you 0:13:19.516 --> 0:13:21.916 absolutely can. We have a coffee shop just downtown Palo 0:13:21.916 --> 0:13:25.276 Atto that takes bitcoin. And so they put five dollars 0:13:25.316 --> 0:13:27.236 worth of bitcoin on my phone and we walked down 0:13:27.276 --> 0:13:28.876 to the coffee shop so they could show me how 0:13:28.916 --> 0:13:31.716 this was the money of the future. And I ordered 0:13:31.756 --> 0:13:34.436 a latte and fifteen minutes later, we're still trying to 0:13:34.476 --> 0:13:37.276 figure out how they're gonna do The coffee shop has 0:13:37.276 --> 0:13:40.116 said they'll take bitcoin, but like, nobody really knows how 0:13:40.116 --> 0:13:42.196 to do it. It's an unbelievable pain in the ass. 0:13:42.516 --> 0:13:45.796 I remember thinking, if for some reason bitcoin was the 0:13:45.836 --> 0:13:51.436 original currency and someone invented fiat currency afterwards, everybody would 0:13:51.436 --> 0:13:54.396 be screaming, hallelujah. You know, it's like, it's so much 0:13:54.436 --> 0:13:57.836 better that then. So that was the first thing it 0:13:57.916 --> 0:14:01.076 was supposed to do, and you're you're absolutely right, it's 0:14:01.116 --> 0:14:04.356 the narrative. What was the second narrative When that narrative 0:14:04.396 --> 0:14:07.596 clearly was not flying anymore? What replaced it? 0:14:08.396 --> 0:14:12.356 Yeah, there's also bitcoin as an inflation hedge, which you mentioned, 0:14:12.836 --> 0:14:15.476 the idea that you know that fiat currency is going 0:14:15.556 --> 0:14:19.516 to inflate into oblivion and so all of your dollars 0:14:19.516 --> 0:14:21.636 are going to be worthless, and so you should put 0:14:21.636 --> 0:14:23.956 them into bitcoin so that that doesn't happen. 0:14:23.916 --> 0:14:25.276 The way you would put it into gold. 0:14:25.956 --> 0:14:29.716 Correct. Yeah, Bitcoin as digital gold is a very common narrative. 0:14:31.276 --> 0:14:34.956 I also don't believe that has really held up. You 0:14:35.036 --> 0:14:40.076 typically don't want your inflation hedges to be enormously volatile 0:14:40.116 --> 0:14:42.516 in the way that bitcoin is. But you know, I 0:14:42.516 --> 0:14:46.276 think that generally speaking, it doesn't actually behave as an 0:14:46.276 --> 0:14:48.596 inflation hedge and the way that people would like it to. 0:14:49.916 --> 0:14:51.516 And I think a lot of people have started to 0:14:51.636 --> 0:14:54.316 acknowledge that bitcoin is not a great inflation hedge because 0:14:54.356 --> 0:14:56.516 it largely follows the market. 0:14:56.836 --> 0:14:59.236 But you got to make gold itself is weird. The 0:14:59.236 --> 0:15:02.756 whole idea that people sort of arbitrarily pick a thing 0:15:02.796 --> 0:15:04.876 and say that's going to be the store of value 0:15:05.236 --> 0:15:08.116 against you know, it is going to be measured against 0:15:08.116 --> 0:15:11.836 inflation or measured against that. People are going to treat anything, 0:15:12.236 --> 0:15:13.996 put anything in this role. So to me, in a 0:15:13.996 --> 0:15:18.316 funny way, that's probably the best story they've told that 0:15:18.356 --> 0:15:21.756 it could. If everybody arbitrarily agreed that this was the 0:15:21.796 --> 0:15:24.956 new gold, there'd be some hope there because it is. 0:15:25.076 --> 0:15:27.516 It does have this going for it. It's scarce, right, 0:15:27.916 --> 0:15:32.076 There's no risk that they're going to be some huge 0:15:32.116 --> 0:15:36.476 number of new bitcoin introduced that will inflate away the 0:15:36.556 --> 0:15:37.316 value of bitcoin. 0:15:38.356 --> 0:15:41.916 Not practically no, I mean, there's nothing stopping the code 0:15:41.956 --> 0:15:45.236 from changing in that way, aside from you know, societal 0:15:45.396 --> 0:15:48.276 belief among bitcoiners. But I think that practically speaking, it 0:15:48.316 --> 0:15:49.076 never will. 0:15:48.956 --> 0:15:51.916 Right, But there was a side argument similar to the 0:15:51.956 --> 0:15:54.716 gold argument. I wonder if you caught this narrative that 0:15:54.756 --> 0:15:57.636 it worked really well as an asset in a portfolio 0:15:57.716 --> 0:15:59.796 because it wasn't correlated with other assets. 0:16:00.676 --> 0:16:03.956 Yeah, that's the common one too, is that it's you know, 0:16:04.076 --> 0:16:07.476 totally divorced from stocks or whatever it may be. But 0:16:08.476 --> 0:16:10.756 that has all they're not played out to be true. 0:16:10.836 --> 0:16:13.196 It you know, very closely followed a lot of other 0:16:13.236 --> 0:16:14.036 asset classes. 0:16:14.436 --> 0:16:18.196 Yeah, no more more it moves with a Nasdaq, but more. 0:16:18.036 --> 0:16:20.276 Extremely Yeah, just swings further. 0:16:20.916 --> 0:16:23.676 Are there any other stories that sort of have been 0:16:23.756 --> 0:16:26.916 proposed and that either have fallen out of favor or 0:16:26.916 --> 0:16:28.476 that are still kind of floating around. 0:16:29.276 --> 0:16:31.196 I mean, there's a lot of use cases that it's 0:16:31.236 --> 0:16:33.316 proposed for. So a lot of people will say that, 0:16:33.516 --> 0:16:37.756 you know, bitcoin is brilliant if you are you know, 0:16:37.836 --> 0:16:41.276 sending remittances, for example, is a common one. Ye, people 0:16:41.316 --> 0:16:43.756 aren't doing that. They could be, but they aren't right, 0:16:43.836 --> 0:16:46.476 and it's broadly because you know, it's it's not great 0:16:46.516 --> 0:16:50.316 for that compared to a lot of other alternatives. I 0:16:50.396 --> 0:16:53.756 think one of the most compelling arguments that I've heard 0:16:54.076 --> 0:16:57.796 is the idea that bitcoin is a viable asset for 0:16:57.876 --> 0:17:03.116 people who are in really bad situations for whatever reason. 0:17:03.276 --> 0:17:05.916 So you know, pick your scenario. It could be that 0:17:05.956 --> 0:17:10.436 they're living under an authoritarian regime, or they are in 0:17:10.516 --> 0:17:15.556 a country where the FIA currency is actually hyperinflating, and 0:17:15.636 --> 0:17:17.836 so people can use it, you know, as a sort 0:17:17.836 --> 0:17:20.636 of one time escape patch where they can flee the 0:17:20.676 --> 0:17:22.236 regime using bitcoin or whatever. 0:17:22.436 --> 0:17:24.636 But it's but that's just a way to as a bridge. 0:17:24.676 --> 0:17:25.996 Bitcoin is a bridge to get. 0:17:25.916 --> 0:17:29.236 The hell out and into something else, right, And I 0:17:29.276 --> 0:17:31.836 also think that it isn't scalable in the sense that 0:17:31.916 --> 0:17:34.836 if you know, an entire population started to try to 0:17:34.876 --> 0:17:38.036 flee a country using bitcoin, it would pretty quickly be 0:17:38.156 --> 0:17:40.396 stamped down on. You know, we've seen that with the 0:17:40.476 --> 0:17:43.436 Taliban for example, when people started to use it for 0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:46.596 that purpose. But I also just think that the idea 0:17:46.636 --> 0:17:51.076 that like a bad solution is a better solution in 0:17:51.116 --> 0:17:54.036 a very bad situation does not actually make a very 0:17:54.076 --> 0:17:57.596 strong argument for that bad solution, right, Like, it's it's 0:17:57.596 --> 0:17:59.556 great that people are able to use it for the 0:17:59.596 --> 0:18:02.916 purposes that you know, they need to, but that doesn't 0:18:02.956 --> 0:18:05.396 actually mean that bitcoin is something that we should be 0:18:05.396 --> 0:18:10.436 broadly embracing, you know, for purposes outside of emergency situations, 0:18:10.436 --> 0:18:11.036 for example. 0:18:11.356 --> 0:18:15.356 Right, it's been funny to me to watch even the 0:18:15.476 --> 0:18:21.116 dark use cases being undermined, like money laundering, like or 0:18:21.276 --> 0:18:26.356 put it more politely, Bitcoin's great because your transactions are 0:18:26.476 --> 0:18:29.196 entirely secret and no one will ever know what you did, 0:18:29.236 --> 0:18:32.116 where the money went, and where and where it's going to. 0:18:32.876 --> 0:18:33.636 That turns out not. 0:18:33.636 --> 0:18:37.916 To be true, right, Yeah, that fell apart pretty quickly. 0:18:38.596 --> 0:18:40.836 I would I would love you to you to explain 0:18:42.436 --> 0:18:46.676 why bitcoin's maybe not the best way to launder money. 0:18:46.956 --> 0:18:51.316 So, anytime you send a bitcoin transaction, it's recorded on 0:18:51.356 --> 0:18:55.876 the Bitcoin ledger, which is immutable and goes back for 0:18:56.036 --> 0:18:58.956 the entire history of bitcoin, and it will never really 0:18:58.956 --> 0:19:03.556 go away. And so if you are trying to launder 0:19:03.596 --> 0:19:07.876 money or you know, transmit funds that are illicit, it's 0:19:07.956 --> 0:19:10.756 kind of the worst possible thing for that because, you know, 0:19:11.196 --> 0:19:13.716 law enforcement they don't even need a warrant. They can 0:19:13.796 --> 0:19:16.116 just go look at the ledger and the only thing 0:19:16.156 --> 0:19:20.596 that's really keeping it private in any sense is that 0:19:20.996 --> 0:19:24.476 they aren't able to connect your bitcoin address to your 0:19:24.636 --> 0:19:28.036 personal identity, which is something that may have been true 0:19:28.156 --> 0:19:31.356 in the earlier days when it was easier to obtain bitcoin, 0:19:31.436 --> 0:19:33.196 you know, you could set up a computer in your 0:19:33.396 --> 0:19:35.756 basement and mind some bitcoin and no one would know 0:19:35.796 --> 0:19:38.836 who had just done that. But that's not possible today, 0:19:38.916 --> 0:19:42.796 and so it's very difficult to obtain bitcoin anonymously and 0:19:42.836 --> 0:19:47.716 then to maintain that anonymity over and basically indefinite period 0:19:47.716 --> 0:19:50.116 of time, where if at any point it is connected 0:19:50.156 --> 0:19:54.156 to you, you are then connected to the crime. If 0:19:54.156 --> 0:19:55.836 I was a criminal, I don't think I would be 0:19:55.916 --> 0:20:00.356 choosing bitcoin personally for my money transmission. 0:20:01.796 --> 0:20:18.676 Let's take a quick break. I'm back with researcher and 0:20:18.716 --> 0:20:21.716 critic Molly White, who's generously agreed to talk to me 0:20:21.876 --> 0:20:24.756 on background for my next book, All about the World 0:20:24.796 --> 0:20:32.156 of Cryptocurrency. I asked her how she explains things like 0:20:32.196 --> 0:20:35.396 crypto and blockchain to folks who know nothing about such things. 0:20:35.836 --> 0:20:38.276 Like if they know what a database is, I'll usually 0:20:38.316 --> 0:20:42.196 say that it's just like a database that is stored 0:20:42.276 --> 0:20:45.156 among a large group of computers rather than the one 0:20:45.196 --> 0:20:49.956 single computer, and any activity that happens in that database 0:20:50.076 --> 0:20:52.756 is recorded permanently and publicly. 0:20:53.036 --> 0:20:55.116 Which is why this is not a very good tool 0:20:55.436 --> 0:20:58.276 for illicit financial. 0:20:57.836 --> 0:21:00.196 Activity, certainly not in my opinion. 0:21:00.996 --> 0:21:04.996 For a storyteller, bitcoin is a like a wonderful case 0:21:05.036 --> 0:21:07.196 study in the power of story. If you can make 0:21:07.236 --> 0:21:10.116 it believable for a bit and you can replace one 0:21:10.236 --> 0:21:13.436 story with another story and people don't really notice that's 0:21:13.436 --> 0:21:17.116 what you've done. It's kind of wild how the thing has. 0:21:16.996 --> 0:21:20.156 Sometimes in the same conversation. Actually, which I've noticed is 0:21:20.196 --> 0:21:22.876 like I'll be arguing with someone and I'll say something, 0:21:23.556 --> 0:21:25.396 you know, against what they've just said, and the argument 0:21:25.436 --> 0:21:28.156 will totally shift, even in sometimes in ways that totally 0:21:28.156 --> 0:21:33.476 contradict the earlier argument that they were making. It's very strange. 0:21:33.596 --> 0:21:35.356 Do you find yourself in these arguments? 0:21:35.396 --> 0:21:38.996 Often I avoid them for the most part. There is 0:21:39.156 --> 0:21:42.556 no end to the long line of people who think 0:21:42.596 --> 0:21:46.036 that they can just debate me into being a bitcoin maximalist, 0:21:46.116 --> 0:21:48.996 and it's like I only have the energy to argue 0:21:49.036 --> 0:21:52.476 the same thing so many times. On the one end, 0:21:52.516 --> 0:21:57.116 they're the true believers that are ideologues. They have no strong, 0:21:57.996 --> 0:22:00.876 you know, interest in the actual financial side of things. 0:22:00.956 --> 0:22:04.396 They just care about the you know, the principles. 0:22:04.316 --> 0:22:06.436 And what are those principles that they care about. 0:22:06.956 --> 0:22:11.756 It depends on the person. But you know, censor resistance, decentralization, immutability, 0:22:11.876 --> 0:22:16.116 you know, pick your poison, really and then on the 0:22:16.156 --> 0:22:19.076 other end, there are people who are solely interested in 0:22:19.156 --> 0:22:21.916