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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't understand the stories of things. We
Speaker 1: simply don't know the answer too. Hey everybody, and welcome
Speaker 1: again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve
Speaker 1: as always, joined by Joe, and it's been a really
Speaker 1: long time since we've done this. Yeah, for us, for you,
Speaker 1: we've been putting out episodes us. We just finished the
Speaker 1: summer series we're in. Yeah, we didn't do anything, no,
Speaker 1: super awesome. It's really cool. Nice to get a break
Speaker 1: here from all this hot action. But it's it's a
Speaker 1: little weird now because it's been a long time and
Speaker 1: I don't remember how to operate any of the equipment.
Speaker 1: Did anybody remember to turn the mixer on? It appears
Speaker 1: to be okay, okay, sweet, all right, well you know
Speaker 1: we should we should get this off on a good foot,
Speaker 1: so we've got to do the cheers, So everybody put
Speaker 1: your hands in the circle and on three one two
Speaker 1: three awesome okay, perfect, it's going to be another fine episode. Igod,
Speaker 1: I got it wrong. It's supposed to be detch Lindy,
Speaker 1: We're always all right. Um Well, this week, everybody, we
Speaker 1: are going to talk about the Wonderland murders, which took
Speaker 1: place on the first July in Los Angeles, California. And
Speaker 1: a quick warning to our listeners. This story covers a
Speaker 1: very brutal murder and it's gonna have a lot of
Speaker 1: conversation surrounding drugs and pornography. So if that bothers you,
Speaker 1: turn us off now. But or more importantly, if you
Speaker 1: have little ears around, you need to pause us now
Speaker 1: and come back later on your own. Little leaders don't
Speaker 1: need this. Yeah, or you know, get those those ear
Speaker 1: extension things come on earbuds headphones. No, you know the
Speaker 1: things that make your ears look bigger, the spot ears. Yeah,
Speaker 1: why so that you don't look like you have little
Speaker 1: ears anymore. You would be thinking about it. You've got
Speaker 1: kind of little ears. Okay, we're going to keep going.
Speaker 1: Um So, before I move into anything about the story,
Speaker 1: I do want to say that this was a listener's suggestion.
Speaker 1: The first person to suggests this was Angel, So thank you.
Speaker 1: Angel and anybody else who suggested it, thank you as well,
Speaker 1: just don't have those written down. Oh, by the way,
Speaker 1: I want to get a shout out to Elena, or
Speaker 1: maybe it's Elena who was all hurt because I did
Speaker 1: an episode and I forgot to give her a shout out,
Speaker 1: so I was sorry, Elienough every time the list is big,
Speaker 1: it is, but it does have us arch function like
Speaker 1: our website. Yeah that's true. Okay, so let's go ahead
Speaker 1: and get into our story. Uh. This story is typically
Speaker 1: either referred to as the Wonderland murders or sometimes you'll
Speaker 1: hear it called the police actually started calling it this
Speaker 1: was the four on the Floor murders. You can probably
Speaker 1: guess by that second name that four people were killed.
Speaker 1: And if you know Los Angeles at all, you're going
Speaker 1: to be aware of in the valley, it's uh, Wonderland
Speaker 1: av and it's what's the name of the valley? I
Speaker 1: just suddenly lost it. It's Laurel Canyon. Yeah, so it's
Speaker 1: it's in Laurel Canyon, which I know I am already
Speaker 1: screwed it up. See, we haven't done this since so long.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to talk worth than normal. You
Speaker 1: haven't spoken in like a month, I really haven't. I
Speaker 1: took a vale of silence and everybody was happy. But anyway,
Speaker 1: so that is where it took. All of this took place.
Speaker 1: So here's what we know as we take the story
Speaker 1: from the start. Sometime in the night or possibly in
Speaker 1: the early morning hours of July one, someone gained access
Speaker 1: to the three story house at eight seven six three
Speaker 1: Wonderland av and they proceeded to go through the house
Speaker 1: and beat every person they found to death or nearly
Speaker 1: to death with a pipe pipes ye, possibly plural. We
Speaker 1: know that they were using pipes because of the fact
Speaker 1: that they were threaded pipes. They had threads on the end,
Speaker 1: and they left impressions in the bodies as well as
Speaker 1: the walls and the furniture, and their heads in the
Speaker 1: bodies and the furniture, in everything. It's yeah, it was brutal.
Speaker 1: At the time of this attack, there were five people
Speaker 1: in the house. The first person was twenty two year
Speaker 1: old Barbara Richardson. Four people died. Five people were in
Speaker 1: the house with the happy story sort of damage. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: well no, okay, so Barbara's the first person. Now, Barbara
Speaker 1: was the girlfriend of a man named David Lynde. David
Speaker 1: Lynde wasn't in the house at the time, but we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about him a little bit more later on.
Speaker 1: But she was sleeping downstairs on the couch and was
Speaker 1: most likely the first one to die because she was
Speaker 1: sleeping near the front door, and the access was gained
Speaker 1: from the front door. Probably, yes, Okay, yeah, there was.
Speaker 1: There was a garage and a front door, and from
Speaker 1: what I can gather, I've never seen I've never gotten
Speaker 1: a good picture of the garage to say that there
Speaker 1: was stairs. I think it was you parked in the
Speaker 1: garage and then you walked up the front step more
Speaker 1: like a car poard sort of situation. Well, it was,
Speaker 1: it was under the house. That's my impression is going
Speaker 1: on to the right side of the house. There's just
Speaker 1: there's an external stairway. Yeah. Well, that's the thing is
Speaker 1: that I've seen the police footage and that's where I
Speaker 1: was trying to figure out there was internal stairs from
Speaker 1: the garage. Whenever you go on like Google street view.
Speaker 1: Of course the garage stores closed and somebody lives, so anyway,
Speaker 1: the access is most likely from the front door, which
Speaker 1: was on the side of the house, and she was
Speaker 1: sleeping on a couch on that floor that would have
Speaker 1: been near that door. So she's probably the first one
Speaker 1: to die. She more likely she might have been the
Speaker 1: person who got up and answered the door. If if
Speaker 1: she did indeed let somebody in, then yeah, she would
Speaker 1: have been the first one to die. You're absolutely right
Speaker 1: that it wouldn't have been died in her sleep. She
Speaker 1: would have been awake for it. But that's hard to tell. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's completely total conjecture. We go to the first bedroom,
Speaker 1: which I believe is on the same floor. The layout
Speaker 1: of this house is weird because it's kind of narrow
Speaker 1: and tall, tall because lots in that area, because it's
Speaker 1: expensively Yeah, it's like San Francisco, you know, skinny tall
Speaker 1: town home. So I believe the bedroom that was also
Speaker 1: on the first floor. But in that bedroom, um, there
Speaker 1: was Ron Lonnius and his wife Susan. Now Susan bad
Speaker 1: timing on her part, wasn't normally there. She was visiting
Speaker 1: to try and fix her marriage with with Ron Lonnias.
Speaker 1: But they were sleeping in this first lower bedroom and
Speaker 1: they were probably the second and the third to be attacked.
Speaker 1: She he was beat to death. He was killed. She, however,
Speaker 1: was not killed. She was beaten so severely that she
Speaker 1: suffered brain damage and amnesia. She has memory loss for
Speaker 1: the whole event. She doesn't remember anything well reasonably, she
Speaker 1: was beat so bad that they thought they had killed her.
Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right, Yeah, it makes total sense that
Speaker 1: she didn't. Her brain didn't catalog. Her brain was dead
Speaker 1: maybe for a while effectively. I don't think intentional anymore,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think her brain might have been like okay, bye, yeah,
Speaker 1: brain shutdown. Um, but okay, so then we're gonna move upstairs.
Speaker 1: So now we have two people who are dead and
Speaker 1: one who's alive. If we go upstairs to the master bedroom,
Speaker 1: Billy dev Role and his girlfriend Joey Miller. Joy Miller.
Speaker 1: It was her house. She owned the house, and Billy was,
Speaker 1: you know, obviously her living boyfriend. By the way, she's
Speaker 1: she's kind of all these people are a little bit
Speaker 1: tragic in a sense. And because I've seen pictures of
Speaker 1: Joy when she was younger and she was studying, she was, yeah,
Speaker 1: and by the end she was What about Billy, he
Speaker 1: was he was like an average looking guy. He was
Speaker 1: kind of what about Ron was he looking no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I mean there was nothing outstanding about any of these
Speaker 1: people in the looks department. One. By this she had
Speaker 1: come from a rather affluent beginning and then she had
Speaker 1: slid downhill. One would assume she owned owned a home
Speaker 1: in l ah even in the eighties. That still, yeah,
Speaker 1: that she apparently looked like crap by the time she died.
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, she looked really bad by the end,
Speaker 1: just because of the drugs. But um so, anyway, they
Speaker 1: are in the master bedroom and they were also both
Speaker 1: beaten to death. There is footage of ailable of this
Speaker 1: crime scene. The police who went into it, they described
Speaker 1: it as an utter blood bath. They've said it looked
Speaker 1: like somebody walk through the house with buckets of blood
Speaker 1: throwing it around. That's how brutally these people were beaten.
Speaker 1: This was one of This was such a drum just
Speaker 1: crazy scene that for the first time ever, the Los
Speaker 1: Angeles Police Department took a video camera in and video
Speaker 1: videotape the entire scene. Get remember, this video technology is
Speaker 1: not something that cops normally would have access to, but
Speaker 1: they recorded the whole thing that's available on the internet.
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you now that it is not
Speaker 1: for the faint of heart. If the sight of blood
Speaker 1: bothers you, I wouldn't watch it. We're probably not gonna
Speaker 1: link to it, but it is a very simple string
Speaker 1: of Google you can find it. So how did the
Speaker 1: police find out about this? Though? It's a very good question.
Speaker 1: So we don't know if the attack happened in the
Speaker 1: late night or early morning of the first July, but
Speaker 1: the dark hours, the dark hours, but sometime during the
Speaker 1: middle of the day on the first July. There's a
Speaker 1: guy working next story. He he was a mover and
Speaker 1: he kept hearing moans, he kept hearing noises, and what
Speaker 1: he turned out he was hearing was Susan because she
Speaker 1: was alive. Were they kind of town houses like really
Speaker 1: close together together. There's super tight there is there's probably
Speaker 1: ten five ft between him at the most. You know,
Speaker 1: I always have, we knew, but now they're they're right
Speaker 1: next to each other. And so what he did is
Speaker 1: he walked up the house and he could I think
Speaker 1: he looked at the door and he had seen that's
Speaker 1: all he needed, and he called the cops. And so
Speaker 1: the cops came, and some of the bodies were so
Speaker 1: badly beaten that they couldn't identify them from their face.
Speaker 1: Is it took fingerprints and luckily they had all been
Speaker 1: arrested before, right, they had all been uh it through
Speaker 1: the system. Yeah, so they're their prints were in the
Speaker 1: system luckily. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, it turns out
Speaker 1: that whoever had committed this act, theoretically, at least we
Speaker 1: believe or the police believe that whoever committed that these murders,
Speaker 1: what they did is after they had killed everybody, they
Speaker 1: tore the house apart because it was an utter disaster.
Speaker 1: And they believe that what was going on is that
Speaker 1: they were they were looking for drugs and money, no
Speaker 1: doubt this was this was a drug house. It was
Speaker 1: a drug house. And that's that's exactly why is that
Speaker 1: if you haven't heard of this story before, you you've
Speaker 1: got to be let in on this little secret, which
Speaker 1: is Ron, Billy and Susan were part of what was
Speaker 1: own as the Wonderland Gag. The gang was notorious for
Speaker 1: selling drugs out of the house, and primarily they were
Speaker 1: selling cocaine. They were all hooked on um heroin, but
Speaker 1: they sold coke because it coke made the most money.
Speaker 1: And I heard that these guys were actually kind of
Speaker 1: blatant about what they were doing, because I heard about
Speaker 1: like you know, people would come by and instead of
Speaker 1: coming into the house, they just got to the lower
Speaker 1: balcony and just say, tossed me the tossed me the
Speaker 1: water cash and then they would drop the drop the
Speaker 1: drugs down into their hands. Yes, I mean it was
Speaker 1: the eighties in l A. It's not as though, you know,
Speaker 1: when they were operating, everybody was doing that stuff. It
Speaker 1: was kind of commonplace. Yeah, I guess, no offense to
Speaker 1: anybody who's offended by that. Now, I meant it. I
Speaker 1: meant the offense. I'm sorry sounds there for saying that
Speaker 1: everybody was doing coke in the eighties in l A.
Speaker 1: My mom for a reference, my mom lived in l
Speaker 1: in the late seventies early eighties. So, I I know
Speaker 1: you've heard some stories. I've heard some stuff. So here's
Speaker 1: the thing. Let me let me give you a Let
Speaker 1: me give you some information on what a class act
Speaker 1: the Wonderland Gang was. So what they would do is
Speaker 1: they would sell drugs, but to acquire drugs. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: would buy drugs and resell them at a higher price,
Speaker 1: but they would also steal drugs and what they would
Speaker 1: do is they would go to other dealers. They would steal,
Speaker 1: get police badges, you know, stolen or fake whichever, and
Speaker 1: bust into somebody's house pretending to be the cops, steal
Speaker 1: all their drugs and money, and then turn around and
Speaker 1: sell those drugs back on the street. And so it
Speaker 1: was nothing but but pure profit of that. Yeah, and really,
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do. You can't call the cops
Speaker 1: and be like, hey, somebody stole my cocao. Actually is
Speaker 1: one thing you can go buy and beat them to
Speaker 1: death with the pipe if you know who it is. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's the thing is that these guys they had to
Speaker 1: look like cops. So it wasn't as if they were masked.
Speaker 1: If they showed up with police badges and mass everybody like,
Speaker 1: you're not really a cop, screw you. But when you
Speaker 1: show up as a you know, with a gun and
Speaker 1: a badge, people tend to not resist. And that's that's
Speaker 1: how they worked their magic. Um. This reminds me of
Speaker 1: the first season of True Detective. Yeah, you know, do
Speaker 1: you see did you watch that? Yeah? When you know
Speaker 1: he goes undercover, Yeah, going to the house. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. Crazy good series. You gotta
Speaker 1: recommend that. Ye. So here's the thing is that drugs
Speaker 1: people are coming and going to this house all the time,
Speaker 1: and drugs are being sold out of the house all
Speaker 1: the time. So that's part of the reason that when
Speaker 1: the attack took place, it wasn't reported because all the neighbors,
Speaker 1: I mean, it had to have been loud, there had
Speaker 1: to be screams and shouts of just you know, pure
Speaker 1: terror and pain, and and nobody called the cops because
Speaker 1: they were like another freaking party next door and they're
Speaker 1: just hopped up, and they would either ignore it or
Speaker 1: is one lady said she turned up the TV to
Speaker 1: drowned it out. Yeah. You know what I've actually noticed,
Speaker 1: particularly if you are used to hearing screams a lot,
Speaker 1: it's hard to delineate screams of like joy and a differentiation, yeah,
Speaker 1: from screams of pain, particularly if you know, I mean, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: so if if any of our neighbors started screaming, we
Speaker 1: would immediately be like, oh God, something's wrong, right, But
Speaker 1: if they're screaming all the time, if you scream, start
Speaker 1: to tune it out, right, And you definitely aren't going
Speaker 1: to tune in if suddenly it sounds a little different.
Speaker 1: So you know, I know that there are people out
Speaker 1: there who will always say, well, no, you would you
Speaker 1: can tell the difference between those screams, but I don't.
Speaker 1: Well if the other thing is the neighbors might have
Speaker 1: heard the screams and thought that sounds like somebody's being murdered.
Speaker 1: But I really like those people, or even like or
Speaker 1: even they've beat some other people up in the house before,
Speaker 1: like the people who lived there would bring people and
Speaker 1: beating them, you know, like, it's not if somebody tries
Speaker 1: to screw you on a deal in your house, it's
Speaker 1: a it's a well known fact that people get their
Speaker 1: their ass handed to them for doing that. So you'd
Speaker 1: be used to hearing this stuff. So we're we're gonna
Speaker 1: keep moving on here, um as um as always. On
Speaker 1: the first and July, people showed up at Wonderland av
Speaker 1: at that house. This is not the cops, this is
Speaker 1: not the mover. This is people who want their drugs
Speaker 1: as and I need to get my fixed show up
Speaker 1: and nobody answers the door. And it seems that the
Speaker 1: door at this point was unlocked and open because people
Speaker 1: apparently we're wandering through the house and going, oh, look,
Speaker 1: there's blood everywhere and they're dead. Hey, I'm gonna going
Speaker 1: to ransack the place. Yeah, I think it's some money
Speaker 1: to say I could sell this stuff to get some drugs,
Speaker 1: and maybe they got drugs and maybe they got money,
Speaker 1: and all their buddies, all their buddies see the corpses
Speaker 1: and don't call the cops. They just ransacked the place.
Speaker 1: And so people tearing through the house, So it made
Speaker 1: the crime scene just that much more difficult for the police.
Speaker 1: I watched a video with I think it was the
Speaker 1: chief at the time, and you could tell that he
Speaker 1: was freaking livid over the fact that people and he
Speaker 1: didn't like addicts, I could tell that, and he was
Speaker 1: just super mad that they had been going through the
Speaker 1: house while all these people were dead and just didn't
Speaker 1: didn't care. I don't. I mean it's hard a little bit.
Speaker 1: I think if you're a drug addict, a lot of
Speaker 1: times you aren't thinking I'm gonna pull the steed here.
Speaker 1: You're not thinking clearly and rationally. So you show up
Speaker 1: to your drug dealers house who's known drug dealers, and
Speaker 1: you're there, you know, in the morning or whatever, and
Speaker 1: you see that they're murdered, and you call the cops
Speaker 1: and they say, okay, like you're really this is the
Speaker 1: scenario you run through in your head, right, You're like, Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: if I call the cops, the cops are gonna ask
Speaker 1: what I'm doing here, and I don't have to have
Speaker 1: a good reason to be here. So, like you guys
Speaker 1: were cool. I'm sorry that this happened to you, but
Speaker 1: I would rather not get thrown in jail. I'm going
Speaker 1: to be a suspect. They're gonna book me. I'm going
Speaker 1: to jail for the rest of my life. I get it,
Speaker 1: totally understanding that I'm just walking away, I totally. But also,
Speaker 1: there's such a thing as like anonymous nine one one calls. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: you know the thing about it is is they those
Speaker 1: guys had every reason to believe that somebody just like
Speaker 1: him was going to show up twenty minutes later, an
Speaker 1: hour later. You know, I discovered the body, so they
Speaker 1: just figured I'll do a quick search, see if I
Speaker 1: can put some smack or a little cash, and I
Speaker 1: want to just leave. I do want to say something
Speaker 1: because we're we're about to go into we're gonna dive
Speaker 1: pretty deep into some rug adult behavior, some junkie behavior,
Speaker 1: and there it's gonna come clear. I'm just gonna be
Speaker 1: honest about this. I don't like junkies, and that's a
Speaker 1: personal belief. I have problems with them. Now there is
Speaker 1: there are people who think differently than I and believe
Speaker 1: that you shouldn't blame someone who is suffering from an addiction. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't agree with that. So my point is I'm
Speaker 1: saying this now, let's agree to disagree. Please don't send
Speaker 1: me emails to correct my thinking. Just just my belief
Speaker 1: based on my experiences in life. Yeah, I'll say this,
Speaker 1: and that as it happens to the best of us,
Speaker 1: it happens to great people, and it happens to not
Speaker 1: so great people. And let's just leave it there and
Speaker 1: let's move forward with the story. I guess I was
Speaker 1: just going to add that it is my sense that
Speaker 1: these people, drug adult or not, we're not necessarily good people. Anyway,
Speaker 1: they were not, and so so I think what Steve
Speaker 1: is trying to say is that this is not a
Speaker 1: sweeping generalization of everybody who's ever done drugs. Ever, We're
Speaker 1: just talking about these people, and we are probably gonna
Speaker 1: like forget and use some more. It's going to come
Speaker 1: across the careful as bashing and I and if it does,
Speaker 1: it's unintentional but things. But we're also, you know, sitting
Speaker 1: in a studio drinking beer. So like, sorry, guys, but
Speaker 1: here's our disclaimer. It's not a sweeping generalization, even when
Speaker 1: it sounds like it. Okay, so let's move on. I
Speaker 1: want to talk. So we just we talked about all
Speaker 1: these lovely folks who have come through the house and
Speaker 1: probably sifted through their belongings. Let's talk about a very
Speaker 1: well known person who frequented the house on Wonderland Avenue.
Speaker 1: Now he was in and out of there all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that would be John Holmes. Yes, John Holmes of
Speaker 1: the thirteen and a half inch notoriety. It was for
Speaker 1: one thing, he's a very big star. Yeah. And he
Speaker 1: had a long career and kind of really a big
Speaker 1: width of a career as it was. Yeah, it really
Speaker 1: was just spanned a lot of different he kind of
Speaker 1: he did god get the whole hog. Um. On a
Speaker 1: really odd side note here, before we get too much
Speaker 1: into John Holmes or John Holmes anyway, Um, on a
Speaker 1: side note, this somehow has turned out to be the
Speaker 1: second story in a row where I've had Val Kilmer
Speaker 1: playing the lead role of the person in my story. Well,
Speaker 1: isn't that the new theme of our podcast? Because he
Speaker 1: was in the Lion one that I did Lasts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and he was in a movie called Wonderland portraying
Speaker 1: John Holmes, which I will not recommend anybody watch. It
Speaker 1: doesn't hold up. Just a conspiracy, oh in it's a conspiracy.
Speaker 1: He was in a movie called Conspiracy. But you know, okay,
Speaker 1: it was in a lot of movies. But also, you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's easy to find um films with
Speaker 1: l Kilmer. I mean, you know, given his like really
Speaker 1: tragic past of you know, both of his parents being
Speaker 1: murdered and him like really facing his deepest fear. That yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was that was. That was definitely another one of
Speaker 1: his good movies. Um, okay, if anybody has ever seen
Speaker 1: the movie Boogie Nights, uh, that is loosely based on
Speaker 1: the life of John Holmes, It's okay, you know, oh,
Speaker 1: you can keep going. I'll definitely not cut that. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, if if some of the stuff then we
Speaker 1: talk about sounds familiar, if you've seen that movie. It's
Speaker 1: because it was modeled after his life. And we're now
Speaker 1: gonna have to wait till Devin and Joe finish their music.
Speaker 1: That song was put the best affect an airplane. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's not get off track here. Was that not in
Speaker 1: Boogie Night? It may have been? It might have been
Speaker 1: it was an airplane. Sorry, Okay, I'm done. It's obvious
Speaker 1: we haven't done this in a while. We're freaking looping
Speaker 1: in with not back in our groove yet. Sorry, um okay.
Speaker 1: For those who don't know about John Holmes, uh, he
Speaker 1: was a porn star. He began his career as a
Speaker 1: nude model in the late or mid to late sixties
Speaker 1: and then moved over into making pornography in the seventies.
Speaker 1: Because of the size of his package, he was. He
Speaker 1: was an instant star. He kind of a freak. He was.
Speaker 1: He was a huge star. Yeah, I heard that the
Speaker 1: story about his first He actually proposed this to this
Speaker 1: producer and said, hey, I'd like to be a porn star.
Speaker 1: And the guy that took a look at him, because
Speaker 1: let's face it, he didn't have that really a manly
Speaker 1: if his no and there was nothing great he wasn't
Speaker 1: handsome by any manner of mean, yeah, much better looking, right,
Speaker 1: I just like, yeah, yeah, but the porcupine had a
Speaker 1: lot going on him. But yeah, so jog that's what
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, but that's other guy looks at Holmes
Speaker 1: and just says, no, I don't think I'm interested in.
Speaker 1: Then Holmes drops his pants and it's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: guess yeah, OK, yeah, now I'm interested. Yes. We were
Speaker 1: going to make a lot of films together, and they did.
Speaker 1: They did thousands of films. He was in over two
Speaker 1: thousand pornos in his lifetime. He says that he slept
Speaker 1: with over fourteen thousand women. Now that's by Holmes's account,
Speaker 1: and he was a notorious liar by the way. That
Speaker 1: about that, well, that's a hard part. We'll get into
Speaker 1: his lying here. Sure. I mean, if he was in
Speaker 1: two thousand pornos, he probably slept. I mean, I don't know,
Speaker 1: so at least a thousands. Let me give you this here.
Speaker 1: So he was in pornos, he was doing nude modeling.
Speaker 1: He would um, he'd pimp himself out. He would have
Speaker 1: sex with people for money. And later on it turns
Speaker 1: out he was having sex for drugs because John Holmes
Speaker 1: was a giant coke fiend, A huge coke fiend. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he wass coke feed I am actually surprised the guy's
Speaker 1: heart didn't just explode. I mean, he was doing that
Speaker 1: stuff in such quantities, you know what do really long
Speaker 1: line obviously had a very strong heart to be able
Speaker 1: to perform in that field the way he did. Freaking
Speaker 1: jokes here, Okay according to Holmes, Um okay, So yeah
Speaker 1: he was. He was a huge coke fiend and he was.
Speaker 1: This is this kind of his money aspect of it,
Speaker 1: because Holmes made a lot of claims, As Joe said,
Speaker 1: he was kind of a notorious layer. He claimed at
Speaker 1: one point that he was making seven hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year. This is in the seventies, mind you,
Speaker 1: which that's gotta be over a million million and a
Speaker 1: half in today's money at least, probably more like several million. Acts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but he was, yeah, because he was making all that
Speaker 1: money from, like I said, through movies, photos, and turning tricks.
Speaker 1: Private events he called them private events. Yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: know if it was seven fifty, but I'm sure he
Speaker 1: was making a pile of money he was making a
Speaker 1: huge flushed it all down the toilet and drugs. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's the thing is that when John Holmes first
Speaker 1: got into the industry, he didn't smoke or he smoked cigarettes,
Speaker 1: but he didn't do anything else in it. And then
Speaker 1: he started doing pot, and he started doing quayle lose,
Speaker 1: and he started doing cooke, and it just it just
Speaker 1: progressively more and more and more. Um, four point five million,
Speaker 1: four point five million, jeez, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is
Speaker 1: the guy had a kind of an addictive personality. He
Speaker 1: certainly seemed to adicted to sex. Yeah, and by the
Speaker 1: end of the seventies, he into the early eighties, he
Speaker 1: had progressed. His usage had progressed to the point that
Speaker 1: he was free basing cocaine, which is the equivalent of
Speaker 1: crack as far as I understand, and he was, you know,
Speaker 1: he's taken as many drugs as he can. He was
Speaker 1: known this is how much. This is how much drugs
Speaker 1: this guy would take. He was known for carrying a
Speaker 1: briefcase at all times, and in that briefcase was his
Speaker 1: drugs and his paraphernalia. And he was taking a hit
Speaker 1: every five to fifteen minutes. Well, it had a negative
Speaker 1: side effect, which is that his his main claim to
Speaker 1: fame was no longer functional. Huge draw, a huge downfall.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah it was. It was. It was
Speaker 1: black and Mark. He was actually kind of a small
Speaker 1: and flaccid at that point. Well relatively, let's be honest, um,
Speaker 1: But anyway, so when you show up in the set
Speaker 1: and you know you can't perform, well, well the problem
Speaker 1: was he couldn't perform. He also only wanted to do drugs,
Speaker 1: so he would be they couldn't find him, and then
Speaker 1: they find him and he was just high as a kite.
Speaker 1: So we just he got blacklisted. He people gave him
Speaker 1: chances and eventually everybody was like, dude, get out, we
Speaker 1: don't care. They called him the King, and the King
Speaker 1: had left the building. Can't been kicked out of the building.
Speaker 1: It was King of Porn there for a while. But yeah,
Speaker 1: by the end they were they were joking that the
Speaker 1: only way to get him on the set was to
Speaker 1: leave a trail of cocaine. They did so. So at
Speaker 1: this point, he's gone for making all of this money
Speaker 1: to not being able to work, but he's still got
Speaker 1: this massive addiction and he's got to figure out how
Speaker 1: to support it. At one point he took to um.
Speaker 1: He took the stealing from cars, you know, stealing stuff
Speaker 1: out of cars. He would also go to Los Angeles
Speaker 1: International Airport and walk up the baggage claim and just
Speaker 1: grab a couple of bags and walk away to sell
Speaker 1: what he found in the bag. Yeah, I know this
Speaker 1: seems silly, but like, I just don't understand why people
Speaker 1: don't do that these days. Still, I think there's more security.
Speaker 1: There's that much security around baggage claim. I think there's
Speaker 1: more security than you realize. I mean, yeah, and I've
Speaker 1: student baggage claim and waited for people, and I've noticed
Speaker 1: the security just because I'm standing around, right, I don't know. Yeh,
Speaker 1: when I was at that age because I was alive
Speaker 1: back then, it was typically kind of a spot check
Speaker 1: kind of thing, so you could get busted. There might
Speaker 1: be a guy to lock up and say, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: I canna check your check your ticket against your bag,
Speaker 1: but not always problem. You can just drop the bags
Speaker 1: and run and then it's most likely just gonna pick
Speaker 1: the bags of putting back on the carousel. So at
Speaker 1: this point, like I said, he's stealing to make money.
Speaker 1: He um scumbag that he is. He's also doing some
Speaker 1: other really terrible things. Holmes was married when he got
Speaker 1: into the porn business, and his wife was not down
Speaker 1: with it. Well, I like that. I like the way
Speaker 1: he just sort of like come, he started doing porns
Speaker 1: without telling her, and then one day he comes so
Speaker 1: and says, hey, I found my I found my calling
Speaker 1: in life. And he said, really, what is it? I
Speaker 1: want to be a porn star and I just want
Speaker 1: to sleep with a bunch of other ladies on camera
Speaker 1: for money. Yeah, and she was not okay with it,
Speaker 1: I understand, but she wouldn't she didn't divorce it. That's
Speaker 1: what I don't understand. They were married for ten years,
Speaker 1: they were together. She didn't sleep with him after he
Speaker 1: started performing. Okay, I think gonna seem really really um jaded, probably,
Speaker 1: but I totally understand if she even saw like a
Speaker 1: couple of them and saw his upward trajectory and able
Speaker 1: sorry and was able to realize that he was probably
Speaker 1: going to make a lot of money doing porn. If
Speaker 1: she waited to divorce him, she could make a bigger
Speaker 1: claim on what he would owe her an alimony because
Speaker 1: she was used to a higher standard of living quote unquote,
Speaker 1: and I and you know, I never I never. I
Speaker 1: know that they were married for ten years. I never
Speaker 1: looked at I think that by the time she divorced him,
Speaker 1: he was a total addict and he had dying zero. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm sure she could make that. I mean she
Speaker 1: could at the very least be making a claim. Again, well,
Speaker 1: you can sue a guy who has zero dollars for
Speaker 1: a million and you're still getting en up zero. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: but if he ever comes back into money, he owes
Speaker 1: you a lot of back stuff. Yeah, I guess that's true.
Speaker 1: H I hope our listeners aren't judging me, right, Yeah
Speaker 1: they are. But I gotta say, in the end, it
Speaker 1: was a bad call on her part because he went
Speaker 1: up costing her a pile of mind. He came and
Speaker 1: went and he used her a lot, like the time
Speaker 1: he stole her credit and charged and something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah and all. Yeah, okay, so we were but we
Speaker 1: fell a little off track here. We were talking about married.
Speaker 1: So he was married and he was out of money
Speaker 1: and he needed to find a way to make money.
Speaker 1: And uh, it turns out he wasn't above pimping out
Speaker 1: his girlfriend down by the way. He started dating don
Speaker 1: when she was fifteen. He was a twenty five thirty
Speaker 1: year old man at that point. And and by and
Speaker 1: by the time that he started pimping her out, they
Speaker 1: had been together for five years, so she was now
Speaker 1: twenty and he totally hooked on coke. He got he
Speaker 1: hooked her on drugs and then he put her on
Speaker 1: the street. And there are some terrible interviews of the
Speaker 1: things that he would do. So he did really bad
Speaker 1: things with a lot of people, and everybody in the
Speaker 1: business kind of hated him. They there's an interview I
Speaker 1: was watching UM where somebody was talking about the fact
Speaker 1: that what a massive liar he was, and they said
Speaker 1: John Holmes lied as much as he breathed. He would
Speaker 1: open his mouth and garbage would come out, and he
Speaker 1: was known for screwing people over that he knew somebody.
Speaker 1: There was an interview I watched where a lady said, yeah,
Speaker 1: we made the mistake of telling John we were going
Speaker 1: to be going running errands in the morning and not
Speaker 1: home till noon, and they came home at noon and
Speaker 1: their house was empty. He said three things. He said
Speaker 1: that basically, anything that was worth more than maybe three
Speaker 1: or four bucks he had taken. Yeah, I gotta I
Speaker 1: gotta tell you. After researching his life and after watching
Speaker 1: that BBC documentary, I just wanted to spray myself with
Speaker 1: disinfective BBC documentary. Yeah, So I think I think it's
Speaker 1: pretty easy to say at this point that Holmes was
Speaker 1: not gonna win edny Man of the Year awards. He was.
Speaker 1: He was completely sez and so he was connected to
Speaker 1: the Wonderland Gang. He was, Um, what what happens here
Speaker 1: is that Holmes is connected the cops On the tenth
Speaker 1: of July, they had figured out that Holmes was one
Speaker 1: of the known characters that went around that house, and
Speaker 1: they found he and on hold up in a hotel
Speaker 1: on the tenth of July, and they went in and
Speaker 1: they grabbed him, and Holmes, at least at first, told
Speaker 1: them a story that they really liked, which we'll get
Speaker 1: into here shortly. Uh, they tell him, or he tells
Speaker 1: them this story. He says, you've got to protect me.
Speaker 1: You gotta put me in witness protection, you gotta do
Speaker 1: all this stuff, get done, get my wife, lock us
Speaker 1: all up so we're safe. YadA, YadA, YadA, all three
Speaker 1: of us, all three And they do they all are
Speaker 1: in a suite with the police for like two weeks,
Speaker 1: and then and he clams up and he won't tell
Speaker 1: the police anything else. In the little bits he gives them,
Speaker 1: he is changing the story and it's all morphing. And
Speaker 1: eventually the Los Angeles Police Department has had enough of
Speaker 1: him and they cut him free, like, we give up, dude,
Speaker 1: We're done with you. Get out. We're not we're not
Speaker 1: protecting you. You're not telling us anything because he did.
Speaker 1: He just completely clammed up with these Oh well, I
Speaker 1: can't tell you because it's gonna be a danger to everybody,
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah blah. I mean, he just a
Speaker 1: typical garbage. There was another word I was gonna try
Speaker 1: and say there, like um, A reliable person. No, he
Speaker 1: wasn't um. And so they they let him go. Eventually, though,
Speaker 1: the cops would decide that Holmes must be the responsible
Speaker 1: party through one form or another in the Wonderland murders. Well,
Speaker 1: he was connected and they found a palm print, and
Speaker 1: so the cops hauled him in and they had to
Speaker 1: chase him down of Florida to get him, but they
Speaker 1: eventually found him. Florida Man strikes again. Yes, and they
Speaker 1: put him on trial, but he got off scott free.
Speaker 1: They couldn't make the charge of stick because the case
Speaker 1: was pretty circumstantial. There's not any evidence, really tiny amount,
Speaker 1: but not much. So at this point, what we have
Speaker 1: in in our story that we've spent all this time
Speaker 1: talking about is we have a house full of dead
Speaker 1: people and nobody who we can say for sure is responsible.
Speaker 1: So at this point, I think it's time to go
Speaker 1: to the theory machine theory mazine. Theory number one is
Speaker 1: that this is the revenge plot of Eddie Nash and
Speaker 1: Gregory Dials. This theory is the most popular, joy popular,
Speaker 1: especially with the Los Angeles Police Department. The huge, huge,
Speaker 1: gigantic and a half. Yeah, the only way to the
Speaker 1: theories that it started realized kind of mostly on the
Speaker 1: testimony of John Holmes. So it's flaccid, Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: little Yeah, it's a limp theory. Um. So he let's
Speaker 1: go ahead and stop making jokes and we're gonna get
Speaker 1: into the actual meat of this theory, which is that
Speaker 1: we're gonna beat the meat a local drug heavy weight
Speaker 1: by the name of Eddie Nash, who, by the way,
Speaker 1: his real name was Adele nazare law. I hope I
Speaker 1: pronounced that right, Okay. Apparently he had been robbed somewhere
Speaker 1: between one to three days prior to the murders taking place.
Speaker 1: And Eddie Nash for a little bit of background. He
Speaker 1: was a heavy hitter. He owned clubs and bars all
Speaker 1: over Los Angeles at the time, and he also sold
Speaker 1: a lot and did a lot of drugs. He was actually,
Speaker 1: he's actually an all American success story. He came to
Speaker 1: America from Palestine and with nothing, with nothing, he started
Speaker 1: a hot dog cart and turned that into a giant
Speaker 1: empire of clubs and cocaine. I know. And he was
Speaker 1: He was not somebody that I would screw it, oh no,
Speaker 1: because he he also just like Holmes, he started doing
Speaker 1: drugs and then he got into free base and once
Speaker 1: he started free basing coke, he was he was off
Speaker 1: his rails. But we'll talk about that in the second.
Speaker 1: But the other player in this theory is a guy
Speaker 1: named Gregory Dials. And Dials was a three pound bodyguard
Speaker 1: slash enforcer who knocked heads for him and he was
Speaker 1: a big, ugly, scary guy and he supposedly knew kung
Speaker 1: fu or something like that. No if you look at
Speaker 1: this guy, it was like, I don't see. He probably
Speaker 1: at one point trained in something when he was much
Speaker 1: lighter build, but then he got big and he just
Speaker 1: always said, I know, kung fu or whatever whichever won him.
Speaker 1: You know. Actually, I gotta say that I know some
Speaker 1: people who are into martial arts, and even if you're
Speaker 1: kind of fat, I mean you know how to punch.
Speaker 1: You still you know how to you still know the
Speaker 1: techniques and you're still you know, so you can still
Speaker 1: do it. Just because he was a big guy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and when you get to the five six hundre pound stage,
Speaker 1: well then you're kind of fat and helpless, but you know,
Speaker 1: it's three under pounds. You can still move pretty well,
Speaker 1: I think, you know. So according to the okay, well
Speaker 1: actually not according to this series, it's pretty well known.
Speaker 1: John Holmes and Eddie Nash we're buddies. They loved to
Speaker 1: do drugs together. Yeah, I mean John Hols like he
Speaker 1: used Eddie because Eddie always had always had drugs, and
Speaker 1: Eddie like John Hols because Holmes was a celebrity exactly.
Speaker 1: And then it turned out Holmes might have been a
Speaker 1: little bit of an anaconda. Yeah, yeah, he kind of
Speaker 1: did choke the life of this whole situation because, um,
Speaker 1: what happened here is that Holmes would buy coke from Nash,
Speaker 1: but eventually he'd run out of credit. I mean, Nash
Speaker 1: would give him credit, but you got to cut a
Speaker 1: guy off at a certain point, and he did. And
Speaker 1: it's at that point where Nash would no longer just
Speaker 1: give him coke on credit that he started hanging out
Speaker 1: with the Wonderland Gang. Most of the gang apparently didn't
Speaker 1: really like Holmes. Uh it. I think it's Debel who
Speaker 1: took pity on him and let him hang around and
Speaker 1: run odd jobs for them in exchange for drugs. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so they they'd have him do stuff to get to
Speaker 1: get drugs. But there are but there are stories, however,
Speaker 1: the abuse that he took for what he did. Uh
Speaker 1: Lonnius run. Lonnius didn't like him. He actually kind of
Speaker 1: hated it. Sounds much like you know, because there are
Speaker 1: there all these stories where they were, like we said,
Speaker 1: they had parties of the house. People are coming and going,
Speaker 1: and Lonnius would make Holmes pull out as Johnson on
Speaker 1: command in the middle of a party just to show
Speaker 1: it to people. You want to touch it. Go ahead
Speaker 1: and touch it, check it out. Holmes was exceptionally proud
Speaker 1: of his member, and so it probably wasn't that statistic
Speaker 1: on anous part, because but there's there's a difference between
Speaker 1: I'm I'm talking to you trying to make a drug
Speaker 1: deal and you say, whip it out and show it
Speaker 1: to the lady, say hey, wyt's you show it to everybody,
Speaker 1: and saying hey show it now. The question who who
Speaker 1: was actually in charge of the Wonderland Gang? So was
Speaker 1: was the ringleader? He was kind of the man I'm
Speaker 1: sorry I forgot her name, the woman who owned the house, Miller.
Speaker 1: It wasn't her, no, no, nor her boyfriend who It
Speaker 1: was actually a dude who was in charge. Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: actually the lady that owned the house. She was a
Speaker 1: complete and total piece of work as well. She is
Speaker 1: described as the most foul mouth heroine addict ever. She
Speaker 1: was not a nice eight so it's it doesn't surprise
Speaker 1: me that she fell in with this crowd. She was
Speaker 1: very vicious, as apparently Lons was as well. Yeah, um, so,
Speaker 1: so what's going on here is the Wonderland Gang? After
Speaker 1: Nash says you you can't just buy coke on credit.
Speaker 1: You gotta gotta pay me. And now Holmes is hanging
Speaker 1: out with the Wonderland Gang. They send him out to
Speaker 1: make a deal or to make a run of some kind.
Speaker 1: I the details are sketchy, no, no surprise here. It's
Speaker 1: basically I sent him out with a bag of coke
Speaker 1: and he didn't anything, and the holes we lost it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he probably snort right. The whole thing went bad. And
Speaker 1: they said, listen, you're gonna make it up to us
Speaker 1: or we're gonna kill you. We're gonna we're gonna get
Speaker 1: our money out of you one way or the other.
Speaker 1: Bub And so what what freaking Holmes is brilliant plan
Speaker 1: is is, Hey, let's up, Eddie. Nash had tons and
Speaker 1: tons of drugs and money and jewelry, tons and all
Speaker 1: kinds of things of value in his home. But here's
Speaker 1: the thing about Nash. He was absolutely insane at this point.
Speaker 1: The man had been doing drugs in such quantity that
Speaker 1: he locked himself in his house. He would only do
Speaker 1: business from his home. Uh. He He used to love
Speaker 1: to walk around around in a robe and a speedo.
Speaker 1: He was a paranoid. He was a sadist. He was
Speaker 1: completely unhinged. If again, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back
Speaker 1: to the movie reference earlier of Boogie Nights. If you've
Speaker 1: watched that movie and you remember, there's a character named
Speaker 1: Rahad Jackson. He's played Alfred molina Um and there's the
Speaker 1: whole drug buying scene that goes south. That character is
Speaker 1: based on Nash. Salute nut job drug dealer, like the
Speaker 1: kind of guy that you just don't mess with, what
Speaker 1: happens to your free basic and eat holes in your brain.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, it's really too bad about Nash because he
Speaker 1: was such a success story and he just again he
Speaker 1: and he and Johnny Holmes were perfect for each other well,
Speaker 1: but but Ni also did a lot of illicit things
Speaker 1: from the very It wasn't like he was an upstanding
Speaker 1: businessman who fell down slope now, but still it's just like,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, for both him and Holmes, things
Speaker 1: would have really been a lot better have they both
Speaker 1: just not started. Yea. So here's here's according to the theory,
Speaker 1: here's what goes down the Wonderland Gang as I said, says,
Speaker 1: you need to make this up. He says, okay, let's
Speaker 1: rob it, heady Nash. So what they do is they
Speaker 1: send him. They send Holmes over to Nash's house under
Speaker 1: the pretense of buying drugs with money that they've given him.
Speaker 1: He goes over there and over the course of several hours,
Speaker 1: you know, he's he buys drug from Eddie nash On
Speaker 1: with cash and then proceeds to do the drugs there,
Speaker 1: which takes hours. While he's there, he sneakily unlocks a
Speaker 1: sliding glass door in a bedroom and then he leaves.
Speaker 1: That morning, the Wonderland Gang show up, so he goes
Speaker 1: up there. In the evening, he goes back to their house.
Speaker 1: The gang shows up at Nash's house that morning with
Speaker 1: their badges. They come in through that sliding glass door
Speaker 1: and they robbed Nash. They put Nash on his knees
Speaker 1: and then on his belly, the same thing with dials.
Speaker 1: They they've got him a gun pointsing where the cops?
Speaker 1: Where's it all? At handcuff. I think they tied him up.
Speaker 1: I think they tied him both up. But but they
Speaker 1: robbed him and they robbed them of anywhere between a
Speaker 1: hundred thousand to a million dollars worth of guns, cash, drug, jewelry.
Speaker 1: And did I say drugs because there was lots of
Speaker 1: drugs along with whatever else they thought they could fence. Now,
Speaker 1: if the Wonderland Gang did this, and by the way,
Speaker 1: they didn't kill anybody, I call that a major error
Speaker 1: in judgment on their part. Yeah, that probably would have
Speaker 1: been a thing to do. Because here's what happens is, uh,
Speaker 1: Nash is flipping out furious about this, and he sends
Speaker 1: Dials out to figure out who did it, who hit him,
Speaker 1: and he wants to know. Like I said before, they
Speaker 1: it's not as if they were wearing masks, they police badges,
Speaker 1: but he just didn't know who they were. Dials goes
Speaker 1: out and eventually he runs across John Holmes, who he knows.
Speaker 1: Holmes surprisingly is or strangely is wearing a ring that
Speaker 1: was stolen in the robbery. Yeah, that's that's that's such
Speaker 1: a dumb move. Yeah, I'm sure he just found that
Speaker 1: a convenient with that to hang onto it while I
Speaker 1: was walking around trying to find a place to pawn it,
Speaker 1: I imagine. And yeah, I want to again put this
Speaker 1: in here. We've talked at length about this, but this
Speaker 1: is still the theory. This is the story that is
Speaker 1: believed by the l a p. D. We've been saying
Speaker 1: a lot of this is if we know it truly happened.
Speaker 1: We don't know that any of this happened. I just
Speaker 1: realized that we were saying this with such conviction. So he,
Speaker 1: according to the story, then what happens is Dials clocks.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he clocked homes, but he grabs homes. They
Speaker 1: drag him back to Nash's house. While Nash is screaming
Speaker 1: and threatening at and threatening homes, Dials is beating the
Speaker 1: living daylights out of him. This particular bit of the
Speaker 1: story does have support, and that support comes from a
Speaker 1: man by the name of Thorson. Thorson was Does you
Speaker 1: guys both know who Liberaci was? He was a very
Speaker 1: famous singer at the in the seventies and early eighties,
Speaker 1: and he had a lover, Scott who was at Nash's house.
Speaker 1: And is that the guy from behind the candle Labra Libaracci?
Speaker 1: And I think he went back even earlier in the seventies.
Speaker 1: But you're saying they were lovers, the Thorson and Liberacci, Yeah,
Speaker 1: saying Libaracci was gay? Yes, yes, that is undeniably. Oh
Speaker 1: my Jesus, you might need to rethink your seduction tactics. Cow,
Speaker 1: it's all making send. Joe brings a woman over and
Speaker 1: he plays Libaracci and she leaves. That guy was such
Speaker 1: a player. He put this coat on the labra. That
Speaker 1: was such a such a great dresser, and you know
Speaker 1: he's always been my role model. Oh my god. So
Speaker 1: Thorson and Liberaci had a thing going. But what you
Speaker 1: need to understand about Scott Thorson is he was just
Speaker 1: as deeply into drugs as the rest of him. He
Speaker 1: was at Nash's house for at least a day on
Speaker 1: a bender. He Liberacci eventually cut their relationship off because
Speaker 1: he was stealing Liberaci's stuff and us again make good friends. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So so so that's that's where the there's this whole
Speaker 1: backup of Nash was screaming and threatening and Dials was
Speaker 1: beating the holy crap out of John Holmes and thinking, wow,
Speaker 1: it's kind of a tackle area to wear that ring. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: according to this theory, eventually Holmes gives in and he
Speaker 1: spills it all, and at that point Nash orders Dials
Speaker 1: to go to the Wonderland House and take John Holmes
Speaker 1: with him, and those two plus two other men go
Speaker 1: to the house to quote unquote pay them back. They
Speaker 1: they want to get the drugs and the money and
Speaker 1: everything else has been stolen and give him a little
Speaker 1: bit of revenge. Absolutely, the house itself had a buzzer
Speaker 1: at the door. He had had an intercom buzzer. Steal
Speaker 1: great door system was necessary. Holmes was totally necessary because
Speaker 1: Holmes was the key to get in the door. According
Speaker 1: to the theory, what happens is that as soon as
Speaker 1: Holmes gets the door open, those guys rush in. Holmes
Speaker 1: is held at gunpoint and then they run through the
Speaker 1: house with pipes of Flaylan, killing four out of the
Speaker 1: five people. They homes watching or at least watch part
Speaker 1: of it, which is why his palm prints and fingerprints
Speaker 1: were found at the scene. Possibly. So here's the thing
Speaker 1: about the it's a palm print is what is found
Speaker 1: of Holmes. And the palm print is listed in one
Speaker 1: of two places, which is infuriating to me because it's
Speaker 1: either it was on a wall or it was on
Speaker 1: a footboard. I heard it was on a like a bedboard,
Speaker 1: right that the footboard, the footboard of the bad not
Speaker 1: the headboard, the footboard. But the problem is is that
Speaker 1: you know what I've never found was it just a
Speaker 1: palm print or was it the bloody palm print, Because
Speaker 1: if it was a blood bloody palm print, I feel
Speaker 1: like the case against him would have stuck. If it's
Speaker 1: a regular print, the guy was in the house on
Speaker 1: a regular basis. This is my problem with the the
Speaker 1: L A p d. S theory is that if it
Speaker 1: was a bloody handprint, how the hell did you not
Speaker 1: get your ducks a row and enough to prove that
Speaker 1: this guy was culpable. Well, no, you can't, really. I mean,
Speaker 1: if this guy is if this guy has a story
Speaker 1: that they held him at gunpoint, which by the way,
Speaker 1: I don't believe they did. I think that that was
Speaker 1: that was he was there, you know, probably maybe, but
Speaker 1: I don't think it would have been necessary to hold
Speaker 1: a gunpoint. He would have been just standing there terrified,
Speaker 1: and he would have either tried to slip away or
Speaker 1: just prayed that he wouldn't get killed. But you know,
Speaker 1: there was no need to hold him a gunpoint. And plus,
Speaker 1: by the way, Holmes had every reason to be angry
Speaker 1: with the Wonderland Gang a dog, yeah they did. And
Speaker 1: and also he actually dreamed up this operation of robberty Nash,
Speaker 1: and they got away with a pile of drugs and
Speaker 1: money and jewelry, and they hardly gave him anything. They
Speaker 1: completely ripped him off. He had reason to be angry
Speaker 1: with them. So I guess I think, Belie, even a
Speaker 1: bloody palm print, just to circle back here, isn't that
Speaker 1: much crazier. I mean, as we've described it, and as
Speaker 1: we've maybe all watched on video, like, it was a
Speaker 1: blood bath in there, and if he was there, it's
Speaker 1: not unreasonable to assume that even at gunpoint, even forced
Speaker 1: to watch parts of it, a bloody handprint, palm print
Speaker 1: left there, like, that's not crazy, particularly if he was
Speaker 1: held at gunpoint and they're like all right, get up,
Speaker 1: and he, you know, puts his hand in blood and
Speaker 1: puts it on the wall to help himself get or whatever.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that's not that doesn't prove culpability
Speaker 1: to But the L a p. D. S case was
Speaker 1: that because he was there and the story that they
Speaker 1: had been told, he was the mastermind of the robbery
Speaker 1: against Nash, which put him in a position of being
Speaker 1: responsible for the deaths of these four people. Now let
Speaker 1: me let me talk about where they got some of
Speaker 1: that because we have talked we very briefly talked about
Speaker 1: David Lynde. In the beginning, Lynn testified for the l
Speaker 1: A p. D. And Lynde was his girlfriend, was the
Speaker 1: first was the lady that was on the first floor?
Speaker 1: Who was who the Barbara Richard the first one who
Speaker 1: was killed or likely if the first one who was killed. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So here's the thing about lynd He was brought in.
Speaker 1: I'm from memory. I want to say it was Lonnius
Speaker 1: who brought him in. Lonnius and he had spent time
Speaker 1: together in jail. They shared sell I think maybe, but
Speaker 1: they knew each other from jail. He was brought in
Speaker 1: to help them expand their drugs selling empire. He was
Speaker 1: a biker drugs selling white supremacist guy. He was enforcer.
Speaker 1: There was again the words of words of trying not
Speaker 1: to say he wasn't a nice man and he is. Uh.
Speaker 1: He wasn't at the house that night because he had
Speaker 1: decided to go to a bar and was drinking and
Speaker 1: then decided to take a hooker to a motel room
Speaker 1: where they did drugs together. And there's a lot of
Speaker 1: air quotes around what they did together. But drugs was
Speaker 1: probably involved in at least that somebody who was a
Speaker 1: drug addict might do drugs with a hooker. There might
Speaker 1: also be things they were doing, but the point is
Speaker 1: his girlfriend is at the house and he decided to
Speaker 1: spend the night with a hooker getting loaded. I mean, well,
Speaker 1: it kept him alive, but it's it's a gat. It
Speaker 1: just kind of I'm I'm adding fuel to the fire
Speaker 1: about the character of this guy. He was also believed
Speaker 1: to have, previous to his time in Los Angeles, been
Speaker 1: a a c I, a police informant. He only knew
Speaker 1: so much about what happened at the house. He could
Speaker 1: have given the story of what he knew. Let's say
Speaker 1: that the hit on Nash's house really took place, he
Speaker 1: was involved in it. He knew what happened, and he
Speaker 1: could say that Holmes came up with the scheme. Whether
Speaker 1: he did or not doesn't matter, but he could say that.
Speaker 1: But then after that, he has no idea what happened
Speaker 1: at the house because he was miles away in a
Speaker 1: hotel room. And this the convenient that he removed himself
Speaker 1: from the It's also very convenient that he was an informant,
Speaker 1: and so he would actually know exactly what to tell
Speaker 1: the cops to get a guy that he didn't like,
Speaker 1: John Holmes, into a boatload of trouble. So maybe we
Speaker 1: put a pin on that for a second, because I
Speaker 1: think we have some more Nash styles homes stuff to
Speaker 1: talk about. You're right, Devon, we we do have more.
Speaker 1: But it's actually another theory. Well yeah, okay, so this
Speaker 1: theory number two is an offshoot of theory number one.
Speaker 1: We we talked about how the Wonderland Gang really treated
Speaker 1: John Holmes like a like a dog, a piece of dirt.
Speaker 1: They just they did whatever to him they wanted to
Speaker 1: because they could. This theory is that this was not
Speaker 1: only and the murders were not only an an act
Speaker 1: of revenge for Nash and Dials, but also John Holmes.
Speaker 1: In other words, he wasn't held at gun point through
Speaker 1: this whole thing, but he actually took part. So he
Speaker 1: was an active contributor in the assault and killing of
Speaker 1: four people and the brain damage of a fifth. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, um, if I had been holes, it would
Speaker 1: be kind of an attractive thing to do that. Maybe
Speaker 1: not attractive, but you know it would be tempting. Oh yes,
Speaker 1: to go to ask to go to act and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I heard you got I heard you got robbed, and
Speaker 1: I gotta say, I'm really sorry about this, but I
Speaker 1: know these people over here and I told them about you,
Speaker 1: and you're hidden safe and everything. I really feel bad.
Speaker 1: I think it might have been them, you know, and
Speaker 1: you know, so they could have been that. I don't
Speaker 1: even think you'd have to go that far. I think
Speaker 1: you could just say, hey, I think I know who
Speaker 1: did it because they just gave me this ring. Does
Speaker 1: this look familiar? Yeah, you could do that, so they
Speaker 1: gave yeah, And then you don't have any kind of
Speaker 1: personal connection to the original. You just say something like,
Speaker 1: you know, hey, you know these guys were asking questions
Speaker 1: about you and stuff like this, and you know, and
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, there's all yeah, there's all sorts of
Speaker 1: ways he could have actually played that gotten them murdered.
Speaker 1: The hard the hard part about both of these theories
Speaker 1: is that um as we talked about Scott Thornson, his
Speaker 1: version of that night didn't come out for almost ten years.
Speaker 1: After he cleaned up. He one day recalled this and
Speaker 1: started telling people about it. Years later, Nash and Dials
Speaker 1: would start recounting versions of this but those guys were
Speaker 1: still in the drug business, and it was it would
Speaker 1: behoove them to tell this story about how they had
Speaker 1: brutally murdered four people in a house for screwing them
Speaker 1: over on a drug deal. Well, it's actually a good
Speaker 1: thing that to let people know that, let the world
Speaker 1: know that you are not to be screwed with, because
Speaker 1: if you show weakness in that, in that kind of environment,
Speaker 1: then everybody comes to feed upon you. And you yeah,
Speaker 1: it's exactly why he would tell everybody, Oh yeah, no,
Speaker 1: well we showed up and we beat the holy hell
Speaker 1: out of them, and and just you know, and they
Speaker 1: always did it in these weird passing ways. They never
Speaker 1: obviously they were smart enough to not say, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: we killed those people. But oh yeah, there was this
Speaker 1: time we went to this house out Laurel Canyon and
Speaker 1: some stuff happened. Yeah it was bad. Yeah, so you
Speaker 1: should be you should treat us right, Yeah, Okay, probably
Speaker 1: probably a good idea. Okay, Um, let's let's move on
Speaker 1: to theory number three, which now we're gonna this is
Speaker 1: one of those theories where we're gonna take a complete
Speaker 1: and total turn away from the official version. We now
Speaker 1: have a completely different theory, and that theory is that
Speaker 1: there's a guy named Paul Kelly and uh he did
Speaker 1: it as a hit based on a bad drug deal.
Speaker 1: Funties for the Lulls, for the Raffels, these people, uh,
Speaker 1: these people seem to me there are probably plenty of
Speaker 1: people out there that wanted to kill them. Absolutely, even
Speaker 1: Eddie Nash and and Dials are the prime suspects. You know,
Speaker 1: I think there's lots of other potential susps well, And
Speaker 1: that's exactly It may be possible they were in no
Speaker 1: way involved in the murders. If you remember, in the
Speaker 1: beginning of this story or my description of the Wonderland Gang,
Speaker 1: we were talking about the fact that they made part
Speaker 1: of their money from robbing other drug dealers. Uh, well,
Speaker 1: apparently they would also rip them off in bad drug deals.
Speaker 1: Not too long before the murders, the gang had sold
Speaker 1: what they said was a pound of heroin to another
Speaker 1: drug deal or for two hundred and fifty dollars and
Speaker 1: it turned out to be baking. So well, now they
Speaker 1: cut it. It just turns out the cut was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: so this this dealer, he buys two hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: thousand dollars worth of drugs just to find out that
Speaker 1: they are completely and totally fake, And in his fury,
Speaker 1: turns around and does, not surprising what a lot of
Speaker 1: people would do, he puts a hit out on him.
Speaker 1: I couldn't I can't really blame. No, he puts out
Speaker 1: a contract and he says, you know, it's never said
Speaker 1: how much the contract is worth. Right, I'm just laughing
Speaker 1: because that's always like that train of thought to me
Speaker 1: is like so weird, where it's like, Wow, I just
Speaker 1: lost two thousand dollars. Better spend two dollars more to
Speaker 1: kill these people at no chance of ever recouping my costs.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm frantically shaking my head. No, it's not two
Speaker 1: K for the hit. It's I'll pay brand ahead, whatever
Speaker 1: whatever it is. But but just like just like with
Speaker 1: Nash if if I, if you screw me, and I'm
Speaker 1: willing to pay another three grand per head, And so
Speaker 1: I just paid fifteen thousand dollars. But you're whacked and
Speaker 1: I'm still alive, and nobody else is gonna mess with me.
Speaker 1: I recognize. That's why we took the break, is because
Speaker 1: we had to find the replacement. Joe but I'm just
Speaker 1: saying it doesn't make sense to me, Steve. I don't
Speaker 1: understand like why somebody would be like, Wow, I just
Speaker 1: got screwed all this money. I know, I'll spend a
Speaker 1: bunch more money to get this back. Instead of going
Speaker 1: back and trying to steal from them, you're trying to
Speaker 1: get it back. Yeah, drugs and logic do not mix.
Speaker 1: I don't. Drug dealers in logic sometimes mix, rarely only
Speaker 1: in certain elections. But yeah, you gotta you gotta look
Speaker 1: at it this way too, is that these people have
Speaker 1: ripped you off and disrespected you, and it's definitely for
Speaker 1: a lot of people would be worth the extra money
Speaker 1: to kill them. I do like the No Joe. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's yeah. This is a better clone than the last one. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: and that's all that all makes sense. So, according to
Speaker 1: this theory, there is a guy out there whose name
Speaker 1: was Paul Kelly. And by the way, I tried to
Speaker 1: find Paul Kelly information on this Paul Kelly Kelly, I know,
Speaker 1: I couldn't find any reporting on him. But according to
Speaker 1: this theory, this guy took the contract. Um, it turns
Speaker 1: out he must have been, you know, one of the
Speaker 1: jillion l A drug dealers at the time, and that
Speaker 1: giant pond of cocaine fish um. But I couldn't find anything.
Speaker 1: But according to the theory is that he went ahead
Speaker 1: and he took the contract and he executed it, and
Speaker 1: he swooped in and he got his the seven pounds
Speaker 1: of flesh that this this two fifty dollar rip off
Speaker 1: dealer wanted. Now, I know that people are gonna be
Speaker 1: screaming at their computers or iPhones or whatever saying, but Steve,
Speaker 1: the problem is that doesn't explain John Holmes's palm print,
Speaker 1: except if we move into the next theory, it may
Speaker 1: be kind of does because if let's let's let's go
Speaker 1: ahead and let's say that both sets of theories that
Speaker 1: we talked about so far are sort of right. In
Speaker 1: other words, the whole um, the whole Kelly part of
Speaker 1: it happened first. So Paul Kelly shows up, he kills everybody.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, Holmes has been picked up by Dials
Speaker 1: and got the holy crap beat out of him by
Speaker 1: hit by Dials and Nash and Holmes finally gives usays, fine,
Speaker 1: it's the Wonderland Gang. Here's their house. But By the
Speaker 1: time Dials and Homes and the other two guys get there,
Speaker 1: Paul Kelly has come and gone and done his deed,
Speaker 1: at which point Dials is saying, Okay, hell, I gotta
Speaker 1: find my boss's product. I gotta find my boss's money
Speaker 1: and his stuff, and Dials could be the one that
Speaker 1: is responsible for turning the place completely upside down. Totally.
Speaker 1: Absolutely could be that it was both sets happened at
Speaker 1: the same time. It's entirely possible. I could see where
Speaker 1: you could, like, you can make kind of a Guy
Speaker 1: Ritchie movie out of this different timeline. I would like
Speaker 1: I would like to see Guy Ritchie tackle the Wonderland murders.
Speaker 1: I think that Tarantino of this is probably more apt,
Speaker 1: So that would be that the blood level in that
Speaker 1: would be probably accurate, the most accurate. Ritchie doesn't really
Speaker 1: go for the gritty. But but I can see the
Speaker 1: Guy Ritchie split timeline. Everything made something trap mind good call.
Speaker 1: This is like four rooms to me. Yeah, so we
Speaker 1: have one more theory, but god, okay, yeah, we're not
Speaker 1: done there. Um, there's one more theory, which I admit
Speaker 1: I made. This last one we talked about up in
Speaker 1: my own mind. And I'm gonna make this last one up,
Speaker 1: which is that if indeed the Wonderland Gang had knocked
Speaker 1: over Nash and they had taken all of this stuff,
Speaker 1: they needed to move a lot of stuff. They needed
Speaker 1: to move drugs, they needed to move jewelry, they needed
Speaker 1: to move guns. They need to get rid of it all.
Speaker 1: So they're gonna be putting out feelers, which cause a
Speaker 1: lot of chatter. You know. The people who were in
Speaker 1: those areas, they're like, oh, that's crazy. This house. The
Speaker 1: guys from this house just asked me about getting rid
Speaker 1: of all of these jewels. That's weird. They just asked
Speaker 1: me about getting rid of all these guns, to get
Speaker 1: rid of a whole bunch of quay louds. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so they really Yeah, when when people come to realize
Speaker 1: you've got a pile of cash and drugs and stuff,
Speaker 1: Yeah you don't. You're not You're not clever about it now,
Speaker 1: you know, deal with one thing at a time. You
Speaker 1: start asking all I want to get rid of it
Speaker 1: all just as fast as possible as a bunch of money.
Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, oh yeah we got money.
Speaker 1: We can make change for a hundred grand, no big deal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: although that's gonna draw attention. The flies are going to
Speaker 1: start coming in, and now it's time to come in
Speaker 1: and like take all that Athough, I tend to kind
Speaker 1: of think that somebody would have come in with just
Speaker 1: some guys and some guns and just robbed them rather
Speaker 1: than beating them to death with pipes more likely. That's
Speaker 1: why I don't really like this one. Well, the thing is, though,
Speaker 1: is um so everybody in that house. Uh, they were
Speaker 1: heroin addicts. And the thing about heroin addicts is that
Speaker 1: when they get high, they're not active. They're very inactive.
Speaker 1: So you think I'm gonna come in, I'm gonna hold
Speaker 1: these people up. I'm gonna I'm gonna, you know, just
Speaker 1: tie them up and stick them in a corner and
Speaker 1: we're going to hold monitor and while we look through
Speaker 1: the house and try to find stuff or hey, how
Speaker 1: convenient they are all so passed out, they have no
Speaker 1: idea we're here and we can take a bunch of
Speaker 1: time to rouse them up and get them together. Or
Speaker 1: I could just club the whole only crap out of
Speaker 1: them and maybe they maybe they're done with it. You know.
Speaker 1: Actually there's an interesting thing and that is if you
Speaker 1: watch TV. In the movies, there's this whole idea that
Speaker 1: you can cock somebody in the head and just knock
Speaker 1: them out. And what happens is you hit him on
Speaker 1: the head, you either piss them off or you maybe
Speaker 1: knock them out or you kill them. Um, it's like
Speaker 1: you know, and more likely you're going to kill them
Speaker 1: or piss them off. But the level, the level of
Speaker 1: the beatings that the it was pretty savage. This wasn't
Speaker 1: a I'm going to bunk Ferrell else out, you know.
Speaker 1: This was I would like to see the inside of
Speaker 1: your skull, each and every one if you Well, here's
Speaker 1: the unfortunate truth is that if you're five feet away
Speaker 1: from another house and they're used to hearing kind of
Speaker 1: drug fueled parties, if they hear gunfire, they're probably still
Speaker 1: going to call the call. Yeah, but if you beat
Speaker 1: some people to death, I'm really sorry, But if you
Speaker 1: beat some people to death, and even if one of
Speaker 1: them is screaming, the neighbors aren't going to call the cops. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that if you hold them at gunpoint
Speaker 1: and tie them up and tell them to keep shut
Speaker 1: up or they're gonna get killed, it just makes more
Speaker 1: sense to me to do it that way. I mean,
Speaker 1: it makes more sense, but I also don't that's that's
Speaker 1: a lot more work. I think that. But the reason
Speaker 1: I think is is robbery is one thing, but these
Speaker 1: were savage murders. It was not like it was like
Speaker 1: there was a revenge factor here. There's also I mean
Speaker 1: there's it's there's the total possibility that this was a
Speaker 1: long term back and forth. Right they don't know about
Speaker 1: the Wonderland Gang had been robbing people and as far
Speaker 1: as we know, they had been getting robbed back, and
Speaker 1: it had been this back and forth kind of thing,
Speaker 1: and that finally this was the kind of culmination of
Speaker 1: that where people were like, I am so freaking fed
Speaker 1: up these people at gunpoint, the combing back. I'm just
Speaker 1: like whatever, I'm just going to Yeah, I'm gonna take
Speaker 1: a pipe to their head. And there were lots of
Speaker 1: people who had a motive, particularly like you know, I've
Speaker 1: never been so high on drugs that I've thought this
Speaker 1: is like violence is a good idea, but it's there.
Speaker 1: That's not also, but that's a long spiral for most people,
Speaker 1: and you know, to say like this will put an
Speaker 1: end to that, maybe that's what was happening maybe or
Speaker 1: maybe even you know, they hit them over the head
Speaker 1: once and they were like ha ha, and and I'm
Speaker 1: I'm more inclined to believe the one of the latter theories.
Speaker 1: These last two theories. I mean, like we said the
Speaker 1: l A P. D. S theory at the first couple
Speaker 1: of theories, those are the most popular. Um. John Holmes
Speaker 1: is first wife. He was married multiple times, but his
Speaker 1: first wife came out years later and wrote an autobiography
Speaker 1: in which she at that point talks about the fact
Speaker 1: that how somewhere between the day of to two days
Speaker 1: after the Wonderland murders, John showed up at her house
Speaker 1: covered in blood and she put him in a hot
Speaker 1: tub to clean him a bathtub of hot water, nor
Speaker 1: the hot tub a tub of hot water to clean him,
Speaker 1: At which point he was freaking out. She said, tell
Speaker 1: me what's going on, and he recounted some of what
Speaker 1: had happened. But a lot of people who have no
Speaker 1: Holmes have also said that her her book is a
Speaker 1: lot of fiction. Um, I mean, there's just there's you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard for anything that comes out of the mouth
Speaker 1: of John Holmes. I have a problem He told lies constantly,
Speaker 1: is his his autobiography. He didn't write a book, but
Speaker 1: he told stories about his past and it was just
Speaker 1: all lies. The guy was a total skis I guess
Speaker 1: you know, for me, there may be some mill ground
Speaker 1: of like he wasn't this kind of Hollywood hero where
Speaker 1: he was like, I'm going to tell these guys to
Speaker 1: get revenge. I guess that's not a hero, right, anti
Speaker 1: hero whatever, Yeah, that's definitely not the hero. And then
Speaker 1: he came in and helped. But there's also that possibility
Speaker 1: of like he told these guys, hey, these are the
Speaker 1: people who ripped you off, and they're like cool and
Speaker 1: helped him, and he was like, well, uh no, and
Speaker 1: they're like, but you obviously helped him and he was like, no,
Speaker 1: I didn't, and they were like, no, you did, and
Speaker 1: took him with them to witness this thing, and he
Speaker 1: was probably pretty traumatized by that, and you know, coming
Speaker 1: down from drugs and like seeing all of these different
Speaker 1: horrific things, and he could have been really traumatized and
Speaker 1: and almost a victim almost right. There's some culpability issues there.
Speaker 1: There's some like really gut instincts like he was responsible
Speaker 1: for this but at the same time, but you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, I get where you're coming from. My
Speaker 1: problem with making that kind of statement involving John Holmes
Speaker 1: is that he quite obviously didn't give a rats ass
Speaker 1: about anybody else's life but his own, because I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, Holmes died and sure because he had aged
Speaker 1: and that that's what he complications from that killed him.
Speaker 1: When he was tested positive that jackass was still in
Speaker 1: the business and didn't stop performing. He didn't tell anybody.
Speaker 1: Now the word got out in l A. So you
Speaker 1: just want to Europe, Yeah, you don't care about anybody
Speaker 1: else's life, which is different with him being so traumatized
Speaker 1: by seeing other people die because he apparently didn't care. Okay,
Speaker 1: but let's be really, really honest here for a second.
Speaker 1: There's a huge difference between being responsible from somebody dying
Speaker 1: for AIDS or maybe contracting AIDS or HIV to seeing
Speaker 1: someone beat to death with a pipe in front. That's
Speaker 1: a huge difference. But I will agree with that. But
Speaker 1: but my point is he obviously had no remorse, and
Speaker 1: that's I know. I'm not saying that he had some
Speaker 1: kind of remorse. I'm saying he could have been that.
Speaker 1: You know, he could have been trying to play this
Speaker 1: like both sides of the aisle sort of thing and
Speaker 1: it backfired on him, and they're like, all right, well
Speaker 1: you're going to watch this thing that you're responsible for.
Speaker 1: And he had to watch and he was like, God happened,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, and you know he watched that,
Speaker 1: and that's traumatic no matter what. Like, I don't think
Speaker 1: there's a human in this world who, like you get
Speaker 1: used to it, but like for your first time. I
Speaker 1: don't think there's a human in this world who the
Speaker 1: first time they see that happen is like, oh God,
Speaker 1: what right? And so I think there's there's some middle
Speaker 1: ground there in terms of like he could be totally
Speaker 1: responsible for both things but still be really traumatized and
Speaker 1: trying to kind of cover himself, you know. But I
Speaker 1: don't want any send him because I think he's a
Speaker 1: total ski. Yeah it's time for me. I know who
Speaker 1: did it? It was yeah, no, And it wasn't choopy, no,
Speaker 1: it was I mean, this was an upscale This was
Speaker 1: just uncoke. Yeah. Yeah, but there was an upscale, very
Speaker 1: nice neighborhood and they were bringing down the property values association.
Speaker 1: I think it was the neighbors. But I mean, seriously,
Speaker 1: if I if I was living at a nice expensive
Speaker 1: house like that, and I was like really tight close
Speaker 1: to them and everything and listen to this crap all
Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day, I would seriously consider murdering
Speaker 1: them myself. I really. While I enjoy that thought, I
Speaker 1: also think that these were some scary people and that
Speaker 1: you would very quickly say I could just see you know,
Speaker 1: I can see myself in my neighborhood. There's been a
Speaker 1: time or two that I rushed out my door, like
Speaker 1: I am going to take care of this whoa high
Speaker 1: crazy town. I'm I'm sorry. I was just coming out
Speaker 1: to get the mail. I'm gonna go back in my Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, but it's always there's always a possibility it
Speaker 1: was the neighbors. I think I don't think we should
Speaker 1: totally discount that. Nope. Yeah, Well, if you have theories
Speaker 1: on this, you are more than welcome to share them
Speaker 1: with us. The place that you cannot share them is
Speaker 1: our website, but you can check out our research about
Speaker 1: this episode on our website. You can obviously listen to
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Speaker 1: everybody at this point, Google Play, Stitcher, whoever. Um, we
Speaker 1: are on social media, so we are on Facebook, where
Speaker 1: we've got the Facebook page and the Facebook group. We
Speaker 1: are on Twitter, where we are thinking sideways, where Devin
Speaker 1: tweets lots of strange pictures that she has put filters
Speaker 1: on to totally mask her appearance. So if you want
Speaker 1: to know not what Devon looks like. Please check that
Speaker 1: out if you want to know what Devon looks like
Speaker 1: as a pineapple or a wolf. Yeah that's a good Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's exactly what you're gonna get there. We have a subreddit,
Speaker 1: so if you are a Reddit user, there's a subreddit
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. And the last, but not least, the most
Speaker 1: popular method of getting ahold of us to have an
Speaker 1: actual conversation would be email. We do the email email
Speaker 1: is the Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Feel
Speaker 1: free to send in feedback, comments, story suggestions, general praise
Speaker 1: or rage. Be aware. We will respond to all emails,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't eventually. Can sometimes take days. You'd be
Speaker 1: amazed how many, how quickly they pile up. So we
Speaker 1: are not ignoring you. If it takes a couple of days.
Speaker 1: We actually feel bad I have. I'm like, oh god,
Speaker 1: it's still there. I'm freaking out. It's stressing me out, man.
Speaker 1: So we will write you back and tell you tell
Speaker 1: us how much you love us. Yeah, did I forget anything?
Speaker 1: Ah you did, but I don't know what I forgot
Speaker 1: it too. Okay, Well, I I appreciate everybody staying with
Speaker 1: us through this long and kind of haphazard, haphazard drawn out.
Speaker 1: It's just it's been a big episode and uh, we
Speaker 1: appreciate all of that and dealing with every freaking pun
Speaker 1: we've made. So it was hey, guys, just I want
Speaker 1: to point out was mostly all you guys making the
Speaker 1: bad jokes. Okay, well we're gonna zip this one up.
Speaker 1: And yeah, the mystery is not is not even is.
Speaker 1: The mystery is why didn't somebody kill them sooner? Frankly, anyway,
Speaker 1: that sounds a little pushing phraseology and phraseology. Phraseology, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just like ameology.